Global warming 'is three times faster than worst predictions'

[Harper_is_Bush]

Source: The Independent

Global warming is accelerating three times more quickly than feared, a series of startling, authoritative studies has revealed.

They have found that emissions of carbon dioxide have been rising at thrice the rate in the 1990s. The Arctic ice cap is melting three times as fast - and the seas are rising twice as rapidly - as had been predicted.

News of the studies - which are bound to lead to calls for even tougher anti-pollution measures than have yet been contemplated - comes as the leaders of the world's most powerful nations prepare for the most crucial meeting yet on tackling climate change.

snip

The significance is that this is much faster than even the highest scenario outlined in this year's massive reports by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) - and suggests that their dire forecasts of devastating harvests, dwindling water supplies, melting ice and loss of species are likely to be understating the threat facing the world.

Read more: http://environment.independent.co.uk/climate_change/article2609305.ece

---

IPCC estimates/scenarios were too conservative.

It's time to pull out all the stops. Fuck Iraq, it's a bit player as far as issues go now.

Global warming needs our full attention.

EXXON needs to be FORCED to stop funding lies, for starters. BY ANY MEANS.

People need to stop flying.

We need to take control of this issue, otherwise the Earth is gone.

[Harper_is_Bush]

1. And please, don't tell me this is an "environment" topic. This is all-encompassing.

This affects everything.

[Lorien]

12. Amen. n/t

[Radio_Lady]

22. I kicked and recommended this topic. Thanks for posting, Harper.

See more comments below.

[Duncan]

40. Bush cuts climate monitoring

Maybe this was already posted, but ...just damn.

This is all over MSM right now. from LA times:

"America will lose much of its ability to monitor global warming from space unless the Bush administration reverses course and restores funding for the next generation of climate instruments, according to a confidential report prepared by government scientists."

-snip-

..."This is going to create a crisis in the science community's ability to monitor global warming, starting in 2010," said Rick Piltz, director of Climate Science Watch. "This gives the lie to the idea that the Bush administration is placing a high priority on climate change."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-sci-satellite5jun05,1,4977731.story?coll=la-news-politics-national&track=crosspromo

[lonestarnot]

75. Since they have stolen all the money in the treasury, and robbed all of

the working class from any of its discretionary income, how are we to privately fund the mission to view climate change? Sell our wedding bands and shoes? I thought they were replacing 6 satellites with 4? :shrug:

[Telly Savalas]

95. If only Democrats had control of Congress,

they could pass legislation which properly funds this program and restores its original mandate.

Oh wait, Democrats do control Congress. I guess they must not care too much.

[Deep13]

42. That is what environmental topics are,...

...though not usually to this extent.

[pokercat999]

100. "We need to take control of this issue, otherwise the Earth

is gone". I disagree, this statement to be accurate should read "otherwise humans will be gone". Which is as far as the earth is concerned would be a good thing. More egocentric thinking from humans, that's what got us into this (probably unstoppable) mess in the first place.

As I see it there are two basic alternatives to save humankind. 1. return to the technology of the 19th century before internal combustion engines and plastic or 2. leap ahead to some as yet undiscovered technology that will eliminate all or almost all greenhouse gases and eliminate most or all pollution. I'm opting for #2 in the form of using all available funding and credit to throw at the problem in a Manhatten Project type of effort. If we don't find a way out of this the money will be useless anyway.

Besides no one gets out of here alive anyway so we should start acting like that is the reality.

The largest cruelty perpetuated by the worlds religions is the promise of an "afterlife".

[Harper_is_Bush]

105. Perhaps you're not familiar with the predications for species other than humans

it's not good. So no, I'm not being "egocentric".

Now, if you want to split bum hairs we can agree that yes, the earth will still be here. But without a large portion of the species that now roam it, it will be a vastly different earth.

[pokercat999]

109. No argument there, what are your thoughts on the

remainder of the post?

[Harper_is_Bush]

111. Well....

As I see it there are two basic alternatives to save humankind.
1. return to the technology of the 19th century before internal combustion engines and plastic or
2. leap ahead to some as yet undiscovered technology that will eliminate all or almost all greenhouse gases and eliminate most or all pollution. I'm opting for #2 in the form of using all available funding and credit to throw at the problem in a Manhatten Project type of effort. If we don't find a way out of this the money will be useless anyway.

Option #1 won't happen, no chance at all.

Option #2 is required, and beyond the technology we need a cultural shift.
For example, I don't fly anymore. Period. I don't NEED to go overseas for vacation. I work close to where I live, which is lucky, but for those who don't they need to relocate work or home. This needs to become a moral imperative for everyone....a culture where people who use more energy than they ABSOLUTELY need to are frowned upon and openly chastised.

I'm hopeful that North American culture will move that way within a few years.

Besides no one gets out of here alive anyway so we should start acting like that is the reality.
The largest cruelty perpetuated by the worlds religions is the promise of an "afterlife".

Yes, but this is like how Al Gore explains it: a spiritual thing. The animals on this planet are threatened by this, and when Polar bears are gone they won't be back. Nome sayin? Regardless of whether I'm here next year or next week or not, the importance of it is not diminished.

Regarding the religion thing, no comment. I will say that many evangelical groups are on board and making great efforts under the banner of "creation care", so that's good in my book.

[NickB79]

110. We'd be hard-pressed to support 7 billion people on 19th-century technology

That's the kicker that no one likes to acknowledge: we have vastly exceeded the carrying capacity of this planet, and returning to a low-tech age (either intentionally or through the force of Nature itself) could result in the death of billions over the next century.

[jarnocan]

2. K&R thanks. I dread this summer and the hurricane season. and so

much more....

[Bonobo]

3. Don't worry. Earth will be fine.

It's just the life living on the planet that may have some issues...

PS: We're not THAT great a species anyway. Good riddance I say. Our brains are way too large!

Hopefully Vonnegut was right in "Galapagos" and we'll evolve into handless, dolphin-like creatures who can do no harm.

[hippiechick]

72. One of my sustainable development Prof's used to say ..

That Mother Gaia was a live, slumbering being, and that when she tires of us parasites abusing her like fleas nibbling at a dog, she will give a mighty scratch and shake and be rid of us.

I suspect he is right.


O8)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

73. I have to agree

I've often said the same, just using less eloquent wording.

[pitohui]

94. on what basis do you say this?

ask any student of astronomy or cosmology, overwhelmingly most of the universe is dead matter, and we have not discovered ANY life on even ONE other planet

chances are if we blow it on earth we have blown it for billions of years for billions of square light years

there is no reason to believe that multi=celled life can withstand all kinds of insults and plenty of reason to believe that if we destroy this earth, we have ended life not just for our species but "forever" or at least for tens of millions of years

i think we should take the problem a little more seriously, suicide is not painless to those around of us

even if you don't care what happens to humanity or figure we deserve it, what about the many other innocent species who don't deserve this crap? at this point that is my concern

earth will not shrug us off like a flea without killing many other millions of innocents

we have a duty to survive, to fix this mess, and reach out a helping hand to the other species that we have severely harmed and that can no longer recover w.out human aid

[Harper_is_Bush]

106. MANY species besides ourselves will be gone. So, if that's the "earth being fine", what constitutes

the earth not being fine? Nothing less than the sun exploding?

[NastyDiaper]

4. move along, nothing to see here.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Harper_is_Bush]

6. Whatever.

Maybe the significance of the topic determines if it is or not.

This information is VERY significant.

[Radio_Lady]

23. Significance is important, as well as timeliness and source.

I think you've fulfilled all those criteria, Harper. I think about this topic all the time these days. While in London, I happened upon a local radio talk show that was discussing garbage removal in one of the suburbs and what they do with it. Remember, the UK is a bunch of islands. Their recycling has improved somewhat, but when I saw a MASSIVE TRUCK delivering a HUGE amount of just bottled water, on a busy London street on a weekday, it got me thinking about all the facets of this problem.

In 1992, I was let go from a job by a haircolor company that has pumped out millions gallons of lethal chemicals and more millions of glass and plastic bottles -- and still does. Bleach, ammonia, peroxide -- and those are just the main ingredients. They end up in rivers and streams and oceans, as well as landfills.

I remember I was glad to be rid of the spectre of selling that stuff. Just go into your local beauty shop or a cosmetic counter at one local drugstore and look around. It's all part of the same picture.

[Auntie Bush]

49. I hope you reported the company/people that were throwing those

pollutants out.

[Radio_Lady]

88. 3,000 beauty salons? The company? Sorry, it's still going strong --

It's Clairol, owned now by Procter & Gamble.

[jarnocan]

38. interesting post- thanks

Does all latest breaking news get assigned to a related thread after a day or so, to make way for new stuff?

[Duppers]

55. why'd the monitors do that????

Onehandle, the upside is that perhaps it got more attention in GD...and that's the issue anywho.

People need to know about this issue and how those powerbrokers in denial are suppressing it.

[Harper_is_Bush]

7. This topic will die. It's not about the Dem leaders or a Bush bash....

...global warming is an inconvenient truth for the left and the right.

[Radio_Lady]

25. ... or Anna Nicole's baby... but let's hope we're wrong, Harper.

[RestoreGore]

33. Yes, and something to use only when they want votes

And it will not die if I have anything to say about it.

[Deep13]

41. Then so will we.

Either from famine, dehydration or fighting over the remaining resources.

:kick: :thumbsup:

[brokensymmetry]

8. K&R - it is an important topic.

That said - in my opinion - we won't do a
thing to stop it. Nor to slow it down. We're
going to hit the wall at 90 MPH and billions
will die.

Gotta keep that growth going, dont'cha know...

[tavalon]

9. So do we have the new predictions on timetables?

[24HRrnr]

10. Nice to see you taking responsibility

for restrictions on the freedom of speech, trade, association.

Anything else you would like to shred in the Constitution?

And you can call me a troll - but I do energy ratings for green buildings every day. I live it, I breathe it.

And you might bone up on some math skills. The study indicated that every single computer model was flawed and gave inaccurate results. That is not good news, though you give good spin.

[Wednesdays]

14. Well, that response certainly earns the

:wtf: of the day!

[Nihil]

99. Well, if you insist ...

> And you can call me a troll

I wouldn't normally do this out of respect for DU rules but as you've
explicitly requested the response ...

You're a troll!

:hi:

> Anything else you would like to shred in the Constitution?

Didn't realise your boss had left anything unshredded for us to choose ... :P

[Harper_is_Bush]

107. WTF? Are you kidding me? "restrictions on freedom of speech"?

Like you probably told the Dixie Chicks, freedom of speech comes with consequences.

If EXXON wants to fund LIES and MISINFORMATION about global warming, then they deserve those consequences, in spades.

Nice little swiftboat attempt on the research, btw. How about citing what you're talking about, do me that little service?

[autorank]

11. "The Independent" figures out the tipping point was passed. They're impeccable.

Holy shit!

[here_is_to_hope]

13. I have always believed that

its much worse than any "experts" said, that there is a tipping point and we are passed it.:scared:

[RestoreGore]

34. The key is glacial melt

You don't need to be a scientist to see that and the effects it will and is already having in this planet. The Himalayas alone support millions of people who depend on them for water. If they should disappear in the next twenty years, then we are talking about a massive movement of people due to hunger, thirst, and more war.

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

15. earth will be ok.. and better off w/o us

[Radio_Lady]

24. We've talked about that. It's hard not to think about it... we have done such a rotten job as

"caretakers" of this Earth. We are a self-centered, bullying, aggressive race that has many, many flaws. If I were the Supreme Being, I might consider quashing this whole experiment and trying again with something or someone else.

Good night and good luck.

[Greyskye]

16. blipvert

:kick: and R for some important shite.

[Rex]

17. 3 dollars a gallon and 4 by July.

Record profits and the planets biosphere is going to heat up! Hey, as long as we're making money! :sarcasm:

[DKRC]

60. They live by the rule - He Who Dies With The Most Toys, Wins!

Ignoring the fact that you're still dead!
Morans.

And they're taking the rest of of us with them.

:banghead:

[lovuian]

18. Do you feel the anger

its only going to get worst
Mother nature is going to take care of this problem of CO2
and the CO2

[gravity]

19. Have these studies been verified?

Three times the current predictions is a huge claim, so I'm a little skeptical for the time being.

[Radio_Lady]

21. Well, that could be, but "Late Breaking News" from a reliable print source should at least be given

proper respect and not dumped unceremoniously into another forum.

Just my opinion and the owners of this site are entitled to theirs.

[gravity]

65. I'm not saying the study was bogus

but we shouldn't take it as truth based on this one report.

[marshall]

59. Past the point of no return?

It's time to start looking for another planet.

[Harper_is_Bush]

108. The current IPCC predictions don't include polar inputs, and if you've been watching the news lately

you know that ongoing studies are reporting greatly increased melting in the Arctic, Greenland, and Antarctica.

The IPCC reports are conservative, so I wouldn't be skeptical if I were you.

[Radio_Lady]

20. K & R. This is late breaking news and should be kept as such.

I didn't realize that timely and on-point environmental issues were not welcome in LBN.

I've had movie information, celebrity chit-chat, and some 9/11 topics shifted, but not important stories like this.

Sincere wishes that this story stay on top for notice by all at the DU.

Signed,

Only one Resident Female Dodo Bird in Oregon (Soon to be extinct?)

PS. The TV show on cable last night called "It Could Happen Tomorrow" (was it on the Weather Channel?) -- dealing with the impact of a Category 5 hurricane on Miami and Miami Beach -- was just chilling. As a former resident of that area, I could not turn it off. Another show treated on the impact of a hurricane on the New York City location, another place I've lived.

Very scary and so sad.

[RestoreGore]

35. And a tropical cyclone set to hit Oman.

But that's nothing important. :sarcasm:

[Radio_Lady]

91. RestoreGore, that subject has been picked up in LBN today...

Here's one thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2870613

Thanks for your comments.

[RestoreGore]

101. Thanks for that link

I'm watching this with great interest.

[govegan]

26. Yes, folks, put that on your barbecue and grill it!

Yes. Time to pull out all the stops, break out the steaks, lamb and pork chops, call a barbecue and masticate it all over.

Happy meals are here again. We'll just have some bigger burgers delivered right to our door. Maybe even from one of them there natural raised heifers.

Or it it time for that meat between the ears to get smokin'?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> burgers in a petri dish ==> Dutch try to grow enviro-friendly meat in lab
( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2867303 )


Human Health and Planet Health—Same Solution

An amazingly simple win-win opportunity stares us in the face: a global
switch to a plant-food-based diet will solve the diseases of overnutrition
and put a big dent in global warming with one U-turn—since the up-to-now
insatiable appetite for foodstuffs made from livestock (cows, sheep, pigs,
and chickens) are at the root of both disasters.

The human health crisis is pandemic with more than 1.1 billion people overweight
and 312 million obese, 197 million have diabetes, and 1 billion have
hypertension. One final and fatal result of these three chronic diseases is
18 million people die of heart disease annually. You would think by now
world leaders would have launched serious measures to reverse all this human
suffering by attacking the primary cause—eating meat and dairy products. from Dr. John McDougall's January newsletter



Don't take my word for it, read the report. It can be found at: http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/frame.htm



Read commentary here: http://www.harmonyearth.net/id110.htm

In Al Gore's 2006 Inconvenient Truth, there was not a single mention of the vast amount of environmental destruction that is being caused by the raising of the world's livestock. Yet, in November, just a few months after his movie was winning rave reviews for being so environmentally sound, the Food & Agricultural Organization of the United Nations released a report entitled Livestock's Long Shadow. After reading the Executive Summary of this 400-page report, this is how I summarized its findings as it relates to global warming, only one of the categories of environmental damage being caused by the livestock industry worldwide:

The worldwide raising of agriculture causes considerably more global warming, and other environmental problems, than all of the cars, trucks, buses, trains, ships and airplanes in the world.

Now, why do you suppose that this little tidbit was never mentioned on a single network's evening news? The report went on to say, and I quote verbatim:

"The livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global. The findings of this report suggest that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change and air pollution, water shortage and water pollution, and loss of biodiversity. Livestock’s contribution to environmental problems is on a massive scale and its potential contribution to their solution is equally large. The impact is so significant that it needs to be addressed with urgency.
Major reductions in impact could be achieved at reasonable cost."

Atmospheric Damage

Animal agriculture is responsible for 18 percent of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions as measured in
CO2 equivalents. By comparison, all transportation emits 13.5% of the CO2. In addition to CO2, environmentally
toxic gases produced by livestock include nitrous oxide, methane, and ammonia generated from
the animals’ intestines—belching, flatus, and manure. The report says “The impact is so severe that it needs
to be addressed with urgency.”

Livestock:

* Produces 65 percent of human-related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming
Potential (GWP) of CO2.

* Accounts for 37 percent of all human-induced methane (which is 23 times as warming as CO2).

* Generates 64 percent of the ammonia, which contributes to acid rain and acidification of ecosystems.

:smoke:

Life, consciousness, aspiration, creative endeavor, and planned, managed directions are forces that operate in the manifested universe, in our solar system, on our planet earth, in our existences, individual and social. It is these forces that must be mobilized, energized and utilized to offset, master, redirect the present drift toward destruction and replace it by a more stable culture pattern. -- Scott Nearing

"It is not necessary to whistle
to be alone,
to live in the dark." -- Pablo Neruda

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truthisfreedom]

27. K'n'R for the future!

Protect the future!

[Jamastiene]

28. The facts don't lie. It's about time we catapulted the environment

to the top of the issues list for this presidential election. None of the rest of it will matter if we are floating up to our eyeballs in melted ice and weather that would destroy the strongest of houses. This issue needs to be in the top three issues candidates have to address, IMHO.

[dennis4868]

29. but but but....

FOX News told me that global warming is all made up...I feel better now...at least until the devastation begins :-(

[Socal31]

30. Repubs

Burn as much fossil fuel as we do, and everyone else does. Its who STEPS UP and does something about it who will have my vote.

[On the Road]

31. It Bother Me

that the headline states that global warming is proceeding faster when the article states that CO2 emissions have risen faster.

[deweyp]

36. That's not all

The article also say that the ice is disappearing at 7.8% per decade for the last 50 years. It goes on to say the the average melt was calculated at 2.5%. Since when? If the ice pack before 1953 was melting at a rate of 2.5% per decade, why isn't it gone already?

[On the Road]

45. Good Pickup

Believe me, I am not a global warming skeptic in any way. But with a partisan issue like this where hired guns are paid to shoot holes in anything and everything, you have to make accurate statements. These aren't terribly sophisticated things. This is editorial failure in the Independent, which I have liked ever since I read the first anti-Bush editorial.

[PaulaFarrell]

97. You are wrong

The article states that the predicted melt rate was 2.5% when in fact it has averaged 7.8%. It doesn't say anytihng about a pre-1953 melt rate.

FYI, if you start at 100, after five decades:

100 * 92.2% = 92.2

* 92.2% = 85

* 92.2% = 78.4

* 92.2 % = 72.2

* 92.2 = 66.6


So if the ice has shrunk by 1/3 in 50 years, that works out to an average rate of 7.8% per decade.

[PaulaFarrell]

96. It says both

The article states "On the ground, a study by the University of California's National Snow and Ice Data Center shows that Arctic ice has declined by 7.8 per cent a decade over the past 50 years, compared with an average estimate by IPCC computer models of 2.5 per cent."

[RestoreGore]

32. Harper I already posted this in the environment section....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=98761&mesg_id=98761

And was going to post it in this one but was afraid I would once again be told not to do so. So I thank you for posting it too because this is THE most important thing that is happening today. And I am truly frustrated and angry because it just seems like people for the most part don't seem to get the urgency we are facing yet, and I found myself crying reading this report. I am looking at the pictures and reading and doing what Mr. Gore suggested to do by arming myself with knowledge (which I have been doing for years) so much to the point that I have begun writing a book about the global water crisis. We will not leave a sustainable planet for future generations at the pace we are going, and for the life of me I am SO SICK of governments and people still bickering over whether it is even REAL. LOOK AT THE DAMN PICTURES MR. BUSH! And that is why Al Gore's work on this OUT HERE AND NOW is so crucial because he truly sees the urgency of this and is doing it the RIGHT WAY in regards to mobilizing people on a global scale.

So let me just say to you, Harper, that I thank you for your passion on this as well because it is all I think about when I look at my son and realize that WE HAVE DONE THIS TO OURSELVES and I know that this is what we must FIX NOW as much as we possibly can before going completely over that tipping point. I have written so many letters to officials on all levels, signed so many petitions with one of my own and spent tireless hours handing out flyers and talking to people. To think that it is all for nothing is something I simply cannot and will not comprehend. THREE TIMES faster than worst scenarios. I just hope the Live Earth concert can awaken many people to this crisis in time and that more people begin speaking out against the destructive policies of EXXON and companies like it and the governments they support that are complicit in this. Thanks again.

[jarnocan]

39. anoter important post nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. Bush will deny it

Don't you realize it is far more important that the corporations earn obscene profits than if humanity survives?

[nam78_two]

43. K&R-this is the most important challenge we have to face

Cliched but true.

[Deep13]

44. All that melting ice should be captured for consumption...

...for use when things get bad. As it is it is just falling into the ocean and becoming salty.

[Reterr]

46. k&r.eom

[lvx35]

47. This is exactly as I expected.

I knew it. I saw the environmental groups faced with a big unknown, positioning themselves with conservative estimates so they would retain viability on a critical issues on the off chance that things weren't as bad as thought. But they were.

This is our thing now. My single message to everybody who reads this response is that the changes we are going to be forced to make CAN BE FUN. We're going to re-learn how rock and roll. Harvest solar, insulate our homes super well, get out and have some serious fun on that bike for the quick trips. Maybe even think about that kick ass touring motorcycle or hybrid for the longer trips.

There is no time left for anything at this point but work. So lets whistle a work song, put on those work gloves, and kick some ass!

[Dukkha]

48. that means "God's Rapture" is coming three times sooner!

shouldn't we be thrilled about that?
:sarcasm:

[Auntie Bush]

50. Outlaw all HUMMERS! Stop all manufacturing of SUV's. People can buy

station wagons or vans if they need more space or seating capacity.
Every car should get at least 30 miles a gallon.
Clamp down on the emissions of trucks and semi's.
Ticket anything spewing black smoke.
Make big oil companies build new refineries.
Give bigger tax credits or rebates to those buying cars that use alternative fuels.

[MAGICBULLET]

62. ha! I wish!!!!

try coming to Long Island and spreading the word. It seems that driving a Hummer is just a power thing with road rage. I have no idea why these idiots need to pretend that they're in the military when driving in the suburbs. I must admit that these people trigger the angriest thoughts in me. I have nothing but contempt for people with no conscience.

[bamacrat]

51. Well shit.

[mvd]

52. The 2008 Presidential election might be the most important ever in the U.S.

Summers are already pretty unbearable in many parts of the country. I can't imagine the average July temp. in Philly being 95-100 by the middle of this century.

[Javaman]

53. Actually 2000 was the most important, why?

because if we actually had a prez with half a brain instead of the functional rock*, we wouldn't be in as deep of shit as we currently are.

The next poor bastard that is prez is going to be fighting nothing but an up hill battle against the entrenched denialests.

[mvd]

54. It was very important, but now we are at..

the critical point where damage in many areas might not be reversed.

[Duppers]

58. yes. and we have denialists

here on DU!!!

They need an education.

[Make7]

70. No we don't. ( n/t )

[RoccoR5955]

67. The '08 election is already stolen

All you have to do, is read "Armed Madhouse" by Greg Palast. He has all the skinny there.

[Duppers]

56. this is why we need Gore in office

Who else will be willing to mandate the changes needed?

Hillary? No, she plays ball with the corporatists too much.

Kucinich would, but...

John Edwards, yes perhaps, because he cares about the future of our children, but he hasn't made this his biggest issue---yet.

There are those who post here at DU who are in denial and ignorant enough to openly admit that they do not consider CO2 a man-made problem that we need to do ANYthing about. I was shocked to read their posts and lost considerable respect for them.

[RestoreGore]

63. You need to change the hearts and minds of people first

[DKRC]

57. K&R!

Keepin' it kicked.

[unpossibles]

61. bump to read later n/t

[TommyPaine]

64. Time to quit eating beef (among other things).

It's clear that emissions from livestock are a major culprit here (something I've been hearing about for over a decade), even more so than the CO2 from transportation and industry. Why this hasn't been given greater focus is beyond me--there needs to be a serious campaign shining light solely on this issue. What with the dwindling fish populations and the damage caused by livestock (not only the gasses, but the polluting effluence) it makes more sense now than ever to go veg. If not entirely veg, it at least makes sense to cut out beef and probably pork.

Can we expect such a wholesale dietary change? Probably not, at least not in large numbers. Too many people like their Big Macs and steaks. By the way, does McDonald's still serve a veggie burger?

[RoccoR5955]

66. It's OVAH!!!

Yep,
This is the first source that has coincided with what I have observed. I have had an eye on this for the past thirty or so years, and don't have a lot of "official" data, but I thought it was over. There are simply too many people on the planet, there are too many greedy people on the planet, and they are the ones who are running the place, so to speak. They don't care about anything but their own interests, so don't be fooled. They manufacture consent, so that we buy junk that we don't need, or want in some circumstances, so that they can make all their damn money. I have news for them... Their money will do them no good without a place to live.

This climate change has gone on for far too long. Nothing that we can do can stop it in time for more than one, maybe two more generations. The corporations that say that consumption is a good thing, and conservation is a bad thing are to blame. You and I are also to blame. Though I have done what I can, it amounts to not enough.

Oh well, at least the planet will not be polluted with the viral disease of "humanity." The surviving species' will be much better off without us.

[TommyPaine]

74. We won't disappear entirely...

...but our numbers will be significantly reduced. Sadly, it's the world's most impoverished--those that consume the least and have the most minimal negative environmental impact--that will suffer the most. Those that can afford to weather the coming storm shall. The current era will end up as a "valuable learning experience" for future generations and hopefully humanity will prosper with a new-found sense of responsibility, and rue the reckless short-sightedness of our day. There will be a time when "sustainability" will be the absolute norm in everything we do. Too bad countless innocent species will go extinct, and hundreds of millions people will die in order for things to finally and truly change for the better.

[19jet54]

68. Self-Correcting Effect

Mother nature will reduce the number of humans doing her harm, balance is restored?

[ourvoicescount]

79. You make it sound so easy...

[19jet54]

86. The big picture...

... just the reality, if we do not act now.

You can pay me now, or pay me later!

[LeftyMcDemocrat]

69. don't worry

we're getting rid of environmental satellites so we won't know how bad it is anymore!

[calteacherguy]

71. What is needed: nuclear power, renewable energy, conservation. ALL THREE. nt

[pitohui]

76. just curious

how is a nuclear power plant which takes 25 to 30 years to clear and build going to help anything or do you plan to throw it up immediately on the nearest fault in california and just go ahead and kill everybody now?

[NickB79]

104. It doesn't take 25-30 years to clear and build a nuclear reactor

At least, in every other developed nation around the planet, it doesn't. Here in the US we're a bit slow. Maybe we can learn something from France or Japan, who can build state-of-the-art nuclear reactors in 5 yrs or less.

[motocicleta]

81. There is no point throwing good money after bad:

we will not ever be able to produce enough energy to keep consumption at current levels. Therefore, it is unwise to transfer our demand to another highly problematic source.

No nukes.

[DemoTex]

77. The greedy will now grab more, consumerists consume more, and polluters pollute more.

An Eat, Drink, Be Merry, for Tomorrow We Shall All Be Gone mindset pervades this country. Like the Hummer driver: I've got mine, and I'm gettin' more. So fuck you and the future generations.

:puke:

[WestMichRad]

78. It's too late, baby, now it's too late...

The planet will be fine, in the geologic timeframe. It'll just take a short while to rid itself of these pests called Homo sapiens.

Since it's too late, Maynard, let's gas up the SUV and have us a ROAD TRIP!!!
:sarcasm:

[Towelie]

80. Mmm...right. In a month they'll tell us we've already died from it and we're ghosts now

As long as it's "authoritative" it must be true right? No need for more research or anything. Critical thinking is overrated anyway.

[motocicleta]

82. Never mind, then.

We all bow in the presence of your enormous rhetorical genius. Thanks so much for that incredible post.

[PaulaFarrell]

98. Yep, more research

That's what's needed now. After all, two decades of solid research and 99% percent agreement by anyone with any actual knowledge of the science, why, they might all be wrong, so let's just study a little longer. Of course by the time the final research is in, the planet will be fried, but hey, whatever.

[MrPrax]

83. Urgency...Incitement...eXXon? n/t

[motocicleta]

85. Here is another problem.

I don't know exactly how bad it will get, but when you combine the potential from climate change with the potential of peak oil, both of which are only questions of magnitude and not whether they will occur, we are looking at a vastly changed world. We have perhaps been able to exceed the Earth's human carrying capacity by possibly 5 billion people already due to fossil fuel use in agriculture. Messing with our production mechanisms because the fuel is drying up AND our weather systems go haywire is a very, very bad idea. Watching the human population come more into line with reality will not be pleasant.

But that isn't the problem to which I refer. This is:pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm. Americans think "the environment" is very low on the priority list. Changing that seems like an almost insurmountable hurdle. I can see how to attack global warming; I can't see how to get our fellow Americans to pull their heads out of their arses.

K n R.

[ellisonz]

87. I believe this poem is "public domain."

The Hollow Men - T.S. Eliot(1925)

Mistah Kurtz—he dead

A penny for the Old Guy


I

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

II

Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death's dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.

Let me be no nearer
In death's dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer --

Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom

III

This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man's hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.

Is it like this
In death's other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.

IV

The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

V

Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow

Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~evans/hollow.html

[nam78_two]

89. Not that this needs kicking since it is on the first page but still..nt

:kick:

[MzShellG]

90. I have not seen this mentioned before but...

I'm curious if this climate change will gradually coincide with the 12/23/2012 Mayan calendar predictions. Nasa says there will some kind of polar shift that may affect Earth's magnetic field. Surely that will influence the atmosphere's weather. Some say it may be cataclysmic(sp). Anyone know what, if anything, this has to do with the global warming/climate change scenario?

[Imagevision]

92. Bush and his "have more's base" couldn't care less, Bush, "40 years from now we'll all be dead"

[lovuian]

93. It came faster than the scientists forcasted and they really

don't know how to stop it except decrease CO2 and nobody wants that

Mother Earth will take care of the situation

[Uncle Joe]

102. Kicked, too late to recommend

Thanks for the thread, Harper_is_Bush.

[Megahurtz]

103. They Need To Stop Spraying Chemtrails Too.

http://sciechimiche.com/?q=node/285

[govegan]

112. Antarctic Glaciers Sprinting Seaward

From Mother Jones' Blue Marble Blog: http://www.motherjones.com/blue_marble_blog/archives/2007/06/4581_antarctic_glaci.html

Lead author Hamish Pritchard says "The Antarctic Peninsula has experienced some of the fastest warming on Earth, nearly 3°C over the last half-century. Eighty-seven percent of its glaciers have been retreating during this period and now we see these glaciers are also speeding up.

[ozone_man]

113. Other issues seem to pale against this one.

Neocons vs. liberals seems almost insignificant by comparison. Hopefully 2008 will be the election where environmental issues are the priority (over fear mongering and the Iraq war). Maybe a Gore entry could spruce up this sorry line-up of Democrats.

[lonestarnot]

114. kick

[kineneb]

115. discuss:what should be done, using Diamond's "Collapse"

(this may seem obtuse, but I feel we are circling around the problem and not addressing it head-on, so I add to the circle..)

Having read the comments above, I suggest we look at the climate issue through the framework Jared Diamond uses in his book.

Factors leading to collapses of civilizations:

1. (inadvertent) environmental damage

2. climate change (man-made/natural)

3. hostile neighbors

4. decreased support by friendly neighbors

5. society's response to its environmental problems

On a global scale, we are now dealing with numbers 1 and 2. So far, there hasn't been much of a response (#5), which is one of the indicators of possible failure. Numbers 3 & 4 come into play as resources become scarce. So far no one has mentioned the possibility of resource wars which will have a negative effect on #5. Iraq can be viewed as the "opening salvo" in the global resource wars. If leaders are stupid/greedy (which they are), and do not deal with issue #5, we are indeed heading in the wrong direction.

We shall see. The manure may hit the ventilator. I would like to be optimistic, but so far, there has been much talk and little action.

Diamond identifies the problem:"...failures of group decision-making on the part of whole societies or other groups. That problem is of course related to the problem of failures of individual decision-making."(p.420)

He then identifies a "road map" of factors leading to such failures:

1. they failed to anticipate a problem before it arrived
-no prior experience
-reasoning by false analogy
2. perceiving or failing to perceive a problem has actually arrived
-origins are imperceptible
-distant managers
-slow trend concealed by wide up-and-down fluctuations ("creeping normalcy or landscape amnesia)
3. societies often fail even to attempt to solve a problem once it has been perceived
-clashes of interests, selfishness("rational behavior") especially "...when the interests of the decision-making elite in power clash with the interests of the rest of society." (p.430)
-"core values" (religious beliefs, etc.) that are incompatible with survival ("irrational behavior")
4. finally, the problem may be beyond the present capacities to solve, a solution may exist but be prohibitively expensive, or the efforts may be too little and too late

have at!