Senators: Companies with "mass layoffs" shouldn't hire more foreign workers

[jayfish]

Source: Ars Technica

US companies that lay off large numbers of workers shouldn't be allowed to hire workers with H1B visas if they're planning a large layoff that will reduce their total number of US workers, according to two senators. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and Chuck Grassley (R-IA) have introduced an amendment to the Senate's immigration reform bill that would not only restrict H-1B hires from companies that have had "mass layoffs" within the last year but would also require companies that are planning to announce mass layoffs to cut their foreign workers as well. If the company has already received approval to hire new H-1B workers but plans to make layoffs soon, it must inform the foreign workers that their visas will expire within 60 days.

The purpose of the bill is to ensure that US companies are not exploiting the H-1B system by essentially replacing US workers with cheaper foreign talent. The amendment currently defines "mass layoffs" as a company with more than 100 employees letting go of 50 or more workers, but it offers an exemption for companies that provide written certification that the company's total number of employees in the US won't be reduced as a result of the layoff.

Under that definition of mass layoffs, a number of prominent US companies—ones that have applied for thousands of H-1B visas between them—could be under scrutiny. IBM, Motorola, and Dell are all companies that have either recently cut or plan to cut thousands of workers in the US. "If there is truly a shortage of workers in the US why would some of the largest high-tech companies layoff thousands of American workers?" asked Sanders and Grassley in a statement seen by Computerworld.

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, over the next decade, 2 million jobs will be created in mathematics, engineering, computer science, and physical science. That equates to about 200,000 jobs a year times 10 equals 2 million jobs," said Sanders on the Senate floor in May. "Under this legislation, the number of H-1B visas would increase to as many as 180,000 a year. That means virtually every job, about 90 percent that will be created in the high-tech sector over the next 10 years, could conceivably be taken by a H-1B visa holder."

Read more: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070607-senators-companies-with-mass-layoffs-shouldnt-hire-more-foreign-workers.html

---

Wow, an amendment for the working man and not a single Democratic name is associated with it. Thanks Bernie and Chuck!

Jay

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

1. That's a racist amendment

How dare they suggest that American companies should hire American workers? !

:sarcasm:

[Megahurtz]

34. Lol! n/t

[barb162]

78. Thanks for showing that was sarcasm

Whew. This is a hot button topic for me. I'd like to outsource these corporate jerks offshoring American jobs.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

96. Offshore the CEOs, CFOs, and VPs. We can realize billions and billions in savings!

[blueworld]

2. What specifically is "total number of employees in the US"?

I can't wrap my brain around the concept of an exemption that allows a company to have a mass layoff without losing any US employees. If they don't lose any US employees they're allowed to hire more H-1B visa workers?

So they hire 1500 clerical workers, then layoff 1500 manufacturing or DP workers then certify that the total number hasn't changed so they get an exemption to hire more H-1B visa workers?

Yes I am a cynic & a curmudgeon-in-training, but I haven't heard much from Grassley's mouth that bodes well for the working stiff so I'm suspicious. I guess there's a run-around for any rule, also. Whadyall think? :dunce:

[trogdor]

27. Good point.

The Sanders amendment is a step in the right direction, though. You kind of wonder why any American would spend the money and time (opportunity cost) to acquire a degree in computer science (for example) if all the jobs are going to foreign workers at rock bottom wages. And people wonder why we don't graduate enough engineers in the USA.

[PegDAC]

51. I heard him on C-SPAN today

when he proposed the amendment. He is absolutely right on this!

[robinlynne]

32. on the same token, I was thinking ANY layoffs, as opposed to massive layoffs would be

better wording. A company which has ANY layoffs should not be allowed to hire foreign workers. As a matter of fact, I think the entire guest worker program stinks to high hell.

[Megahurtz]

37. Exactly.

There should be no quota at all.

If any of us were to immigrate to Canada, as an example,
they will require you to prove that you have a job that a Canadian cannot fill.

Why aren't we being given the same respect in our own Country? :grr:

[snappyturtle]

3. I just heard Sanders on the floor....my husband and I think he's

wonderful....sensible.....an advocate of the people. K&R

[jayfish]

7. You Should Listen To The Thom Hartmann Show...

on Fridays. He has a segment called "Lunch With Bernie" and it's fantastic.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/

Jay

[SomeGuyInEagan]

39. Agreed!

Sanders is great on Hartmann's show - takes calls from all sides.

[snappyturtle]

62. Oh yes...we do! I just can't get enough! Thanks. nt

[Donnachaidh]

35. that's because he's a socialist democrat

He's described himself so in recent interviews. He may be listed as an independant, but he's far more interested in helping the working stiff than many of the *cough cough* real democrats.

[SteelPenguin]

4. So

Say I had a company with 100 employees, lets call it a software company, we hit a hard patch and lay off 50 people (mostly marketing, support staff and junior developers) to streamline the company and make it through till our product goes live in a few months. We finish the product, and get it out there and it goes gangbusters. Suddenly we're flush with cash, and need to hire 300 people fast in order to get the follow up product out and upgrades that our customers are clamoring for, and ramp up our customer support.

Would we not be allowed to hire say Canadian programmers if we couldn't find enough American programers with the right qualifications?

I understand what this bill is trying to accomplish (firing 50 Americans making X, so you can hire 50 H1-B's making X/2) but I worry about how the language is written, and I think the lower level of 100 employees is a bit too low. I think 250 would be better. 100 still can easily be met by new struggling businesses who might have somewhat severe ups and downs in order to really grow.

[jayfish]

6. It's A Start. -NT-

Jay

[SteelPenguin]

8. Not all starts are good ones

Bills like this tend to hurt small businesses far more than large businesses (who are the real guily ones). We need to encourage small business flexibility in this country, not harrangue a 1 year old company with 100 employees to the same restrictive rules as a 60 year old company with 20,000 employees.

Amend this law to read 200 or better yet 300 employees as the bottom cap and I'm amiable, but 100 is way too low.

[pscot]

16. You set up a straw man, then knock it down

Your scenario is not what this bill is all about. It's not the small software start-up lobbying for the admission of thousands of foreign IT workers.

[SteelPenguin]

20. so why should it affect them?

The bottom on this bill is 100 employees, laying off 50. If the bill is to fit a scenario of a company laying off thousands of americans, to admit thousands of foreign IT workers, have it be written to affect that. AS it is this would affect far more small companies just trying to make it than multi-national conglomerates.

It's not a straw man, as I've personally witnessed a number of times where this bill would have made things more complicated for smaller business trying to regrow after a downturn. The ammendment should be rewritten with the terms affecting larger companies not ones with 100 employees. That's absolutely ridiculous.

[primative1]

22. Small companies dont rate in H1b pools ...

I would be willing to bet that 99% of H1B applications are made by the same offenders and those arent small companies ..

[SteelPenguin]

24. so redfine the ammendment

Would you object then with raising the floor from 100 employees to 300?

[primative1]

28. Do I care?

300 employees or 3000 wouldnt matter to me ... I am more focused on the ones that you would have to be certain that they werent able to shield the real number through some fuzz involving "global" workforce ... My pet peeve is GE :)

[SteelPenguin]

31. You should care

The majority of businesses in this country are small businesses. The fact that your reponse is 'do i care?' is cold and disheartening. If you're focused on the big companies, then why not just move that bottom level up a smidge. Why put more hoops onto small businesses that can't jump as effectively as companies like GE.

Laws like these make it harder and harder on small businesses, sometimes incrementally, sometimes disastrously. To say you don't care is ridiculous, naive, and downright disrespectfull to the thousands and thousands of americans who put their own assets on the line to create jobs and growth and future products and technologies in this country, most of which come from small businesses, not GE.

[primative1]

36. You make it sound like what I say matters ...

I doubt some senator is sitting back waiting to hear what I think.
As to the title of my post "do I care" it was in response to your question "do I care" ... It seemed like an appropriate enough title to continue the conversation ... maybe not ... but of course I care ... and here is my gripe with GE and the like ... not only do they plug in MOST of the H1bs but they then use that as a competitive advantage over not only small but mid sized companies ... the entire chain from top to bottom is getting squeezed by the biggest of the gorillas ... so shouldn't legislation address the worst offenders first .. of course it should, as for the small players ... I still don't know if there is such a need for H1bs but as long as a company demonstrates a genuine effort to hire american first as in the idea of Dick Durbins bill, then of course they should be able to hire H1bs if they aren't successful ///
Long term though; hiring american makes sense, why would I tell my kids to study engineering when I know for fact that virtually all the engineers being hired are straight from India ... Isn't it tough enough to get by making sandwiches without the student loans competing for food money? I fear in a generation or two the technology transfer will be complete and we will be the ones selling t shirts to the tourists ...

[aquart]

64. Small businesses hire LOCALLY.

Small businesses employ Americans. Nothing and nobody helps small businesses.

[papau]

67. majority of businesses in this country are small businesses -but vast majority of workers are in big

businesses.

More hiring is done by small - but so is more firing. Some of the "thousands and thousands of Americans who put their own assets on the line to create jobs and growth and future products and technologies" will win - most will not and will fold. H1b visas will not - and need not - be part of the history of either the small company winner or the many small company losers.

The net growth in jobs is concentrated in the growth of large companies - as is the use of H1B's

If the cliff was increased above 100 it would just make it easier for huge businesses to spin off a company that was its tech arm so it could fit under the cliff and then go 100% H1B.

I'd like to see the cliff lowered to 25 employees so as to stop/make harder the large companies doing this.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. I know, the advocates of corporate America

always weep fake tears over how a well-deserved regulation will "hurt small businesses."

And the owners of small businesses believe them.

I'm just one person in an area of the country that's no Silicon Valley, and I know half a dozen unemployed IT professionals. If your hypothetical small business needed to employ a lot of people all it once, you would have no trouble finding them. Of course, you'd have to pay them American wages. That's the catch, isn't it? The employers want every luxury and perk for themselves and want to hire highly educated experts for pennies on the dollar.

[Nikia]

70. Maybe such a business should be more careful

It takes a lot of business to pay and keep 100+ people busy. Small businessnesses which last tend to start off employing the number of people who they can afford. There are certain rules that come into effect after employeeing certain numbers of employees. Smart business owners know about these regulations and make a business decision about whether or not hiring more employees is worth it to their business in light of these rules.
If your hypothetical company knows that their business is shaky and flucuating, they might want to employ fewer people and possibily use temps during brief periods of increased business. If they believe that their business is now solid and won't be laying off half their workforce anytime soon, they can go ahead and hire their hundreth employee.

[sharp_stick]

12. Good Point

The devil is in the details.

[Malidictus Maximus]

15. Anyone claiming that they couldn't find enough qualified Americans

is led by a bunch of god-dammed liars, Gitmo is too good for any CEO that would lay off Americans and then go the H1-B route.
No H1-B's till EVERY American looking for a job has a good one.

[SteelPenguin]

21. I disagree

I've had to hire for software development positions before and chose to hire an H1-B because he was totally superior to every american who applied for the job (and believe me some of the Americans who applied were comically unfit for the position). We needed to hire someone immediately and he was the only decent person we could find.

You can't always find a qualified American.

I also want to add, that I have also sorted applications in the past into non-american and american piles, going through the american's first becuase I'm not going to hire someone from China or India who needs a visa when I can get a American. That was for entry level jobs where the qualifications were lower. For higher level jobs though the pickings can get slim.

[Megahurtz]

40. Yup.

The old "we found someone more qualified" trick. Corporate has you trained well. :sarcasm:

[SteelPenguin]

42. Nice

I take it you have lots of experience in hiring people for key positions then? You've had to fill hundreds of vital positions requireing experience, knoweldge, training, skill, and personality, and never had a lack of qualified American applicants?

Sling your ignorant bullshit somewhere else, and try and be less insulting. It's not a trick, it happens. Small businesses are particularly hard pressed. Lets just pile on laws to hurt big business that will do anything but, and actually hurt small businesses more. That sounds like fun.

Putting a mega company with 100,000 employees in the same class of law as a company with 100 people is assinine. Megacompany shouldn't be allowed to hire 10,000 indian db developers at cost with h1-b visas, but there's no reason to put that same law into effect by preventing a struggling small business with 50 people to hire that 1 guy who could really make a difference to the company.

[Progressive_In_NC]

45. I hire software folks too, and I can't find any Americans with 5-6 years experience in what we do

But outsourcing really picked up steam what? 5-6 years ago right? They accomplished what they've set out to do, deplete the US workforce in the past 5-6 years so they can increase the flow of folks into the US to do those jobs.

Great job guys.

[primative1]

46. You Remind Me Of My Resume ...

Its blank since I got to train my Indian replacement in 2001 ..
Guaranteed I may now be unemployable but my Indian replacement is probably looking plenty attractive to employers.

[SteelPenguin]

47. Yes

Though my stories are from prior to that. I've had problems finding qualified people since about 98 or so is when I really started noticing it. The height of the bubble when you'd hire a warm body. We were recruiting people still in college with more money than i was making at the time to lead and train them. (it was a point of contention in my own reviews)

I'd have thought that when the bubble burst things would have gotten better, but it was weird. So many people who were unqualified and shouldn't have been hired during the bubble seemed to have this idea that they should still be working in the field since it was what they had been doing since college. Hard to blame them, but I think it made it harder to find qualified applicants.

I'd have people put C, C++, MFC programing and more on their resume, and they couldn't answer basic questions. People who had used Photoshop once to remove redeye, poorly, suddenly had it on their resume and were applying for jobs. I've ended numerous interviews when people who would rate their skill in something as a 5 or 6 out of 10 didn't even know something basic like what a float was. What they actually did at the previous jobs on their resumes, or if they were real jobs, who knows. I don't know if that dreck has always been out there, but it really seems to have gotten bad in about 2000-2001.

Could that be from OUtsourcing? Maybe. THe numbers I've seen don't really indicate that outsourcing of development is anything mroe than a small fraction of what we do here in this country, and transitional at that. I don't know.

I do know that personally, I prefer to hire fresh american kids young and then train them internally to do the jobs that require experience. I can honestly say that the H1-B visa story I told in another post was the last one I hired.

I just don't want to be hogtied in the future from hiring one because of a badly targeted, but important, amendment.

[cap]

92. have you considered that the use of technical quizs are your problem?

that's why you cant find people. A lot of experienced people havent taken tests in a long time. So they dont do well on them. Verbally, is even harder because people have to think on their feet. Younger workers who just came out of school do well on them.

Try this for your next interview instead: Cull the resumes for companies that you know have good coding practices. The kind you like be it agile, SDLC, Java, C++, etc. Bring those candidates in that have worked on a comparable system to the one you are building. Have them walk through their particular component. If you like the answers you hear, you probably have the right person. Ask them about their design and development considerations. Half the time, on these quizes, people are asking questions that are not pertinent to their company's business. It doesnt matter if you know how to handle multithreading correctly if your company never does it!

Conversely, many people who are passing the pop quizes are going online to sites like "Java Interview Questions" and memorizing the answers just so they get through the interview.

Remember the H1B visa is to hire EXPERTS... Unless you have a reason for an expert, you dont need one. Sure hire anybody around the world who's doing semantic web. But also, I hope you have a training program in-house to move your own people into those skill sets. BTW, how about training and promoting your women for these skills and not leaving them as gui programmers, sql programmers, qa or test? Just a thought.

[brentspeak]

49. s/del

[snooper2]

25. lot of if's in there wouldn't you say...

support American workers...

[SteelPenguin]

26. No I wouldn't

Slight variations of that setup have happened twice to me in my career, so I wouldn't call it that crazy a hypothetical.

I support american workers, but I don't think you should hamstring american small business either, since they are the ones who hire lots of american workers, and generally don't outsource. There are too many laws that go through the books meant to control, contain, or punish large businesses, which end up barely scratching them ebcause they have the ability to get around the laws in various ways, while small businesses suffer.

Support American Small Business, and you'll support more workers, than by punishing American Small Business needlessly.

[LiberalEsto]

30. There are 1000s of unemployed programmers

in the US desperately searching for jobs that pay a middle class wage instead of a McWage.

My husband is a database administrator and has seen qualified American programmers at his company laid off time and again only to be replaced by "Tatas" - Indian computer people sent here on H1-B visas by the Tata Corporation. These Tatas make, at best $40,000, while the people they replace earned twice that. Supposedly Tata puts them up in inexpensive dormitories so they can save on living expenses and go back home after 5 years with enough money to live well in India. At one division of his company, almost every American programmer has been replaced by someone on an H1-B visa.

We can't blame the Indians, some of whom are darned nice people, but I do blame the rotten corporations who shaft American workers. These corporations accept huge property tax breaks, government contracts and other perks paid for by our own tax dollars, so the least they can do is hire American citizens first.

It also frosts me that these corporations cut corners by hiring heap foreign labor so they can pay their CEOs those obscene, gluttonous salaries.

My husband and I know so many computer people who have searched for years trying to find new jobs without any luck - including my own brother-in-law.

I applaud Bernie Sanders! Any firm that lays off American workers and hires lower-paid H1-Bs in their place should lose every property tax break and government contract.

And by the way, Hillary wants to INCREASE the number of H1-B visa workers allowed into the U.S.

[SteelPenguin]

33. how big was the company?

Was it a small software company with about 100 employees total? It doesn't sound like it, given the company has multiple divisions. If that's the case they should be subject to laws like these, or something preventing this from happening.

As far as the thousands of unemployed, there are, but how many of them are willing to move for a job, or to learn a different programming language, or adapt? Many aren't. I've interviewd hundreds and hundreds of developers for various positions over the years, and while there are plenty of quality developers out there, there are plenty who are just horrible. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had to hire for a fairly advanced position (right under the technical architect so the guy needed to KNOW what he was doing, and be able to guide others). I interviewed I don't remember how many different people. I eventually hired a French Canadian H1-B. Of all the people I interviewd, all these Americans out of work, none of them showed me they were qualified. One guy literally refused. One of the things we did was give little problem solving questions to be run through in code, to just get a feel for how they coded and thought, and how'd they'd guide someoen through a similiar problem. One interviewee refused to do it because he could 'only program on a computer'. Others just didn't demonstrate what we needed which was an expert who could lead and teach. The French Canadian was so far beyond anything else we saw.

Was there an unemployeed american software engineer somewhere in the country who could have done the job? I'd bet on it. Did he apply? No. We had to hire someone immediately in order to actually meet our goals and deadlines, and the H1-B was the only guy who we felt could do the job.

This was a company which had reorganized the previous year after laying off 80% of the company, and under this new law we might not have been able to hire this one guy we needed, and whose knowledge many american workers jobs depended on.

It's a good ammendement, but it just needs to be ammended a bit more to affect larger companies not smaller ones who that one guy can make a HUGE difference at.

[Daveparts]

50. We had to hire someone immediately

Under a true Capitalist System you raise wages for hard to fill spots not import guest workers. You seem so passonate about this, what if the French Canadian fellow hadn't been there? What would you have done then? Close the company or keep looking? When Americans are out of work looking for a job don't they have to keep looking? It's sounds like your crying because the diamond wasn't laying on top of the ground ready to pick up and you had to dig for it. Sounds like Republican don't inconvience me for the sake of others I've got mine Jack

[SteelPenguin]

76. I am passionate

I've spent most of my life working for small businesses, and now own my own. It pisses me off that every law that gets passed to reign in the big companies who are really doing harm, end up barely scratching them but making life for the small business a pain in the royal ass.

Don't even get me started on health care and how much I pay per employee compared to bigger companies.

Some laws, such as environmentally damaging laws, need to be across the board. Just because you have 20 employees shouldn't mean you're allowed to dump whatever you want in the river. Other ones though, like this, prevent needed flexibility for situations where yes....that one guy can make all the difference in the world.

As far as this specific situation I mentioend we did look for someone for quite awhile and interviewed many Americans. Nobody was qualified. It wasn't a matter of us offering a low salary and being declined, we didn't offer the salary to anyone because nobody we talked to could do the job. Hiring the French Canadian, hell interviewing him was last ditch, and it turned out for the best. What woudl have happened if he hadn't been there? I dont' know. We would have kept looking and putting out more listings on the job searches and recruiters, but things had dried up. I don't know if we would have found anyone, and then we would have missed our deadline and the company would have folded most likely (funding was determinate at that point on specific goals, I wasn't privy to the details but we were in a tough spot).

Believe me we dug.

I'm just sick of people, particularly on our side, who seem to have such a disdain for big business (much of it valid) that they're willing to harm small ones in the process. Hell. They don't give a shit. Just because Joe Republican is an asshole doesn't mean I am, and though with my company I've never hired an H1-B, I don't want to be put in a position where i'm restricted from doing so because MegaCorpOmniUniverseTech wants to fire it's 20,000 american developers and replace them with h1-b's.

Small businesses need to be held accountable, but to hold them to the exact same standards as huge businesses hurts small ones extremely disproportionately. I'm not saying this ammendment is bad in concept. I'm just saying that once again the small business is losing a little more flexibility which can keep a business afloat.

[LBJDemocrat]

79. Give me a break

Your company has the same goals as big businesses: To make profits. Like big businesses, your company will shaft your own countrymen to improve the bottom line.

I don't have a bit of sympathy.

[LiberalEsto]

59. It's a huge company

with more than 3000 employees. I won't say which one, but it's one of those quasi federal institutions like Sallie Mae, Ginnie Mae, Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac. And the company does not pay one penny in property taxes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. The workers are willing to learn, but they tell me

that the companies aren't willing to train.

[candice]

55. Please send this information to Lou Dobbs and your rep and Senators.

[Bitwit1234]

5. I have a suggestion to stop the bleeding of jobs overseas.

I would pass a bill that says....any company that shuts down here in the United States and move that exact same service overseas, then any product they ship back and sell to this country must be taxed and "horrors" "horrors" the price not be acceptable unless it equals or exceeds the price it would have been sold in this country.

Since a lot of the companies are starting to charge these countries that went overseas a tax in their country, if we impose this tax it won't make it worth their while to run overseas.

[LiberalEsto]

60. Bernie Sanders has a similar idea

He wants to impose tariffs on these products to provide a disincentive for American companies to ship their manufacturing overseas.

***Sanders for president!***

[barb162]

77. I'd put a huge tariff on those products, so huge it would be

impossible to sell those products here. We have to start getting really tough.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AzDar]

13. Hear, hear!! (or is it 'here, here'?) n/t

[Mnemosyne]

69. Hear is correct. :) And I respect Bernie! n/t

[Megahurtz]

38. That's Because

they're now all for The Almighty Corporations too. They're all in bed together on it.
To me the Democrats are now nothing but a bunch of Hot Air.:nuke:

[brentspeak]

48. Then, er, what are you doing on this website?

Answer the question.

[primative1]

52. Been there, done that ...

The policy of this board is that anything is fine as long as one is generaly supportive of progressive politics ... One cant be more progressive than Bernie Sanders ... Its Democrats we need to wonder about.

[Red1]

11. About Fuckin Time

[EnviroBat]

14. Has hell offically frozen over?

WAIT! What was that outside my window just then, could it have been, a flying pig?

[Bacchus39]

44. I know, but I agree

n/t

[pacalo]

17. "Both sides (of the bill) are lobbying hard for their position..."

"...and so the fate of Grassley's and Sanders' bill could go either way."

A six-year-old child would wonder why any senator would vote against their constituents on this bill.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Where The Fuck Are The Dems On This?

Are they ALL embracing The Way of the DLC?

It's really simple, actually. We just need high tariffs on foreign goods and services coming from micro wage nations, INCLUDING employees hired by US companies. That would make this bill unnecessary.

(If we don't level the playing field, all the balls will roll off.)

[lovuian]

53. Thats a good Question

Where are they?

Labor has always been the Democrats back bone but it makes you wonder why they aren't the first to help workers in America

[Lorien]

58. Absolutely!

something needs to be done ASAP. I know so many people who have become unemployed in the past six years due to off-shoring (including myself for most of 2006).Too many DLC Dems are following the GOP's lead and making terrorism and immigration their central issues. Off-shoring, the environment, health care, getting out of Iraq-THOSE are far more pressing issues for the majority of Americans (and for the whole planet, as far as the environment goes...).

[LiberalEsto]

61. Hillary wants MORE H1-B visas

so the corporations can screw even more Americans out of jobs.

What a good little corpocrat!

[papau]

68. Hillary wants PHd's to come here to work and develope companies that hire Americans - the bill isn't

a redo of the 400000 computer programing jobs that went offshore because those jobs moving did not depend on H1b's.

However the Tada computer consultant contracts should not be allowed to bring over H1b's so as to under bid US folks.

It is a fine line between fueling American growth and screwing the American college grad. I do not know enough about the bill to express an opinion as to whether the bill is a good bill or bad bill - but it certainly can be a good bill and still allow in the H1b's that Silicon valley (and Rt 128, etc.) needs.

[LiberalEsto]

73. Why can't the US fund scholarships

instead, to educate our own future PhDs?

Why do we need to import PhDs from overseas -- where they received free educations -- to compete with American PhDs who are struggling to pay off huge amounts of college loans?

Sorry, but Hillary is totally wrong on this issue - just like the corpocrat Democrats were dead wrong about NAFTA.

Can't we in the U.S. spend our tax dollars to take care of our own citizens, for a change?

[Zodiak]

91. Here is another fact

the US trains most of the world's PhDs.

Go to any graduate school....most of the students are NOT American.

[conspirator]

93. Because the elite wants low salaries to keep the population in control. And foreigners will

accept any pay just to stay in the US.

[Zodiak]

90. As if we do not have our own PhD's

All of whom has amassed massive debt getting the PhD's and probably can use a leg up. But no....we'll bring in the foreign ones.

PhDs aren't CEOs...they are just middle-workers, like computer programmers or engineers.

Hillary proposal is just moving the outsourcing up the educational scale...not the socioeconomic one.

[LBJDemocrat]

80. They're

They're on their knees, blowing Wall Street.

[Athens30603]

19. I agree...

...but this also goes against basic laws of economics. It doesn't seem the right controls are in place (living wage requirements, minimum benefits packages, etc)for this to really be anything other than a good speech. Unless and until corporations are forced to abide by a certain set of obligations then cheaper labor will always be attractive.
One measure, that would be a good start, is that a corporation must pay a new worker on a par similar to that of the worker who was forced to vacate the position.

[0rganism]

23. too much focus on H1B, not enough on offshoring labor

Of course, since this is an immigration reform bill, H1Bs are a natural target, but I think the concern is disproportionate.

Personally, I would far rather see foreigners coming in to this country on an H1B visa to live and work among us, where their working conditions and salaries meet certain minimum conditions and at least some of the money they earn is recirculated into the local economy, than the current approach which is to close up shop in N. America altogether in favor of cheap labor pools in developing or hyper-exploitative nations.

[jayfish]

29. The System Is Being Gamed Though.

The immigration bill IIRC allows the number of H1Bs to expand and contract with job creation so the system will be gamed even more.

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, over the next decade, 2 million jobs will be created in mathematics, engineering, computer science, and physical science. That equates to about 200,000 jobs a year times 10 equals 2 million jobs," said Sanders on the Senate floor in May. "Under this legislation, the number of H-1B visas would increase to as many as 180,000 a year. That means virtually every job, about 90 percent that will be created in the high-tech sector over the next 10 years, could conceivably be taken by a H-1B visa holder."

Jay

[0rganism]

43. the borders themselves are gamed

If you're a multinational corporation, national borders mean little, at most an arbitrary division at which environmental standards and labor regulations vary.

If you're an illiterate agro worker from Mexico trying to raise a family, it's another story; the border is a dangerous purgatory through which you pass on the way from hellish poverty to a limbo of unofficial existence at the somewhat higher hourly pay rate that'll "put food on your family", as bush would say.

If you're a freshly-unemployed American worker formerly attached to a company now engaged in "maximization of capital assets through facilities relocation", the border is what your job just crossed, and you know it won't be back anytime soon.

Borders mean very little to the ultra-wealthy, and they mean everything to the poorest of the poor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. Right, and if you're an unemployed American worker, no other country

will let you in unless you have very specific skills that are in short supply there... and you're under the age of 40.

"Globalization" is corporate-speak for "go to the ends of the earth to find the cheapest workers you can."

[deadmessengers]

66. Bingo!

This law doesn't do crap to help with the real source of skilled job loss in the US - outsourcing. H1Bs make up a very small percentage of the workforce compared to the work that's being shipped over to workers who are still physically in India. Let's address that first.

[ramapo]

81. Offshoring is an offshoot of H1B

H1B started in earnest more than 10 years ago. It provided an ideal training ground for some to come here, learn, make contacts, and go back home to start offshoring companies.

I'm glad the two Senators are sponsoring legislation but it will take an awful lot to get this toothpaste back in the tube.

You do have a point that the H1B does at least provide some benefit to our economy but the American worker has been screwed for more than a decade by the H1B scam. Of course, for the most part, the outcry from the workers has been less than deafening, which is something I'll never understand.

[Connonym]

41. and then let's address CEO bonuses when lots of employees are laid off

that pisses me off even more I think

[Brigid]

56. And all the people said . . .

Amen and Amen! Can I get an "amen" from the congregation on that?

When Michael Moore made "Roger and Me," one thing that most angered him was the fact that GM was making record profits and laying off workers in their thousands at the same time. It just makes no sense.

[Brigid]

54. Ya think?

Hiring H-1B visa holders makes absolutely no sense -- even if they are cheaper. If you destroy your own market through unemployment and low wages, you're only hurting yourself. Even Henry Ford knew that. He thought the idea of his workers making cars they themselves couldn't afford made no sense, especially since those cars were intended for people just like them. American companies' continued squeezing of the working people of this country is going to turn around and bite them some day. I used to think Lou Dobbs was exaggerating when he talked about the "war on the middle class." No more.

BTW, what's this about NO Democrats sponsoring this bill? :wtf:

[candice]

57. Should these companies even be considered American companies?

I don't know if this is true, but I read the following on a diary called No Worker Shortage on Daily Kos yesterday: "Cisco has said they want to become a Chinese company, aggressively offshore outsourcing...recently demanded some executives move to India."

Maybe American skilled workers should start their own new American companies...and advertise that they are American. Let the Ciscos and other foreign companies be foreign companies. There are many companies in Silicon Valley that have very few native born workers, which has the unfortunate effect of being a disincentive for American students to study science and engineering (no opportunity or if one does get a job, one can easily be replaced at a lower wage), and businesses don't have to care about our public education.

[youngdem]

63. This makes far too much sense. It will never pass.

I hope I am wrong.

[happygoluckytoyou]

65. WHO STARTED IT ALL....... GO GO GOP...

the lack of union workers (thank you ronnie whereever you are) and workers rights (thank you bush sr and jr) and
THERE YOU ARE

so.... cry or vote for Edwards

[antigop]

75. Um, Kucinich has called for a withdrawal from our trade agreements for a long time n/t

[Screwfly]

71. Corporate American

has already pretty much destroyed the work ethic in this country.

There's now a class of people that I think of as drifters. These drifters get a job, work a week or so, quit, and then repeat the process over and over again with other companies. They know employers don't expect much form workers there first week on the job, so these drifters just collect an easy week's pay check and move on. There's always another place for them to work just down road, and when they get to the end of the road they just pack up and move to the next town.

People supporting a family need stability, and the tech field was anything but stable, so these out of work tech people found other fields to work in. Good luck luring an ex-tech worker from a so-so, sure thing job, to another tech job that isn't likely to last.

[conspirator]

88. Hey I do that! But I usually stay a year.

First 3 months is probation and I am not expected to work much, then 6 months of easy work and then I work hard the last 3 months, so people will remember me as a hard worker. Then I tell the boss I feel stressed and I am quiting for health reasons. Then I slack for while and repeat the process.

[ToeBot]

72. Oh look, It's Lieberman to the rescue!

Of his campaign contributors:

Lieberman Bill to Gut Sanders H-1B Bill

[july302001]

74. Long overdue

This is a good bill!! It's long overdue that something is done about the H1B scam.

[Hugin]

85. Thanks Bernie!

Now get to work converting those 'Student Loans' to Grants.

Then we'll see some competition.

[sadiesworld]

86. kick

[ProfessorGAC]

87. How About This, Instead?

No company should allow bonuses to be paid to executives and mid-managers if the profitability targets were hit as the result of lay-offs.

Now, the reality is that sometimes a company may have to do it. But, rewarding strategic decision makers for making the most drastic tactical decision seems inherently wrong.
GAC

[area51]

89. kick. (n/t)

[Gell]

94. YouTube video of how immigration lawfirm helps hire H1-Bs over American citizens

You have to watch the whole thing, the last part is the best - "And our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker. And you know in a sense that sounds funny, but it's what we're trying to do here. We are complying with the law fully, but ah, our objective is to get this person a green card, and get through the labor certification process. So certainly we are not going to try to find a place where the applicants are the most numerous. We're going to try to find a place where we
can comply with the law, and hoping, and likely, not to find qualified and interested worker applicants.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N7l2f_bQ1k

[Gell]

95. Could someone post this in the political videos section

Could someone please post this in the political videos section? I dont have the ability to start a new thread yet since I am still new to posting here.

A few months ago, we had Bill Gates on capital hill preaching the shortage of qualified American engineers and the need to allow unlimited h1-b visas into the United States to fill all the jobs that were available. However, if this shortage were in fact a reality, then things like what is seen in this video would not be happening.

I had long ago heard about these things going on, but in a way I didn't believe it - until i saw it. It is really shocking to actually see and hear. Please watch it. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N7l2f_bQ1k&mode=related&search=

[Gell]

97. video is gone now, no surprises there

Well, seems that this thing has been pulled. Not surprising. I hope at least a few of you got to see it. And if anyone knows if there are any copies out there, please post a link.

[bhikkhu]

98. So they should do like Ford - plan a future elsewhere (article)

Read this article!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6583203.stm