Romney’s Run Has Mormons Wary of Scrutiny

[kskiska]

Source: NYT

(snip)

Some Mormons have watched with concern how Mr. Romney has responded to grilling by interviewers about his church’s distinctive doctrines.

Mr. Romney has been questioned about the Mormon definition of God, polygamy, the location of Jesus’s arrival when he returns to earth, and even a mysterious saying attributed to Joseph Smith Jr. called the “White Horse Prophecy,” which some interpret as a prediction that when the American Constitution is hanging “by a thread,” a Mormon will rescue the nation.

Mr. Romney’s tendency to gloss over Mormonism’s history and distinctive tenets has upset some fellow Mormons. Some said they cringed when Mr. Romney said on “60 Minutes,” “I can’t imagine anything more awful than polygamy.”

Tom Grover, 26, a Mormon who is the host of a weekday talk show on politics on radio station KVNU here, said that while he thinks Mr. Romney has handled the scrutiny admirably, some of his callers were incensed about Mr. Romney’s repudiation of his own ancestors’ polygamy. The church outlawed the practice a century ago, but members are taught to understand that polygamy had a theological and historical context in the church, which Mr. Romney’s remark ignored.

“That really left a bad taste in people’s mouths,” Mr. Grover said. “That’s a tough thing for people to hear when their ancestors sacrificed a lot to live that life. They probably wouldn’t bring polygamy back, but they honor the place of it in church history.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/us/politics/11mormons.html?ref=washington

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Mormons deserve a lot more scrutiny, as does the Catholic church

Both of them are WAY too deep in politics to keep their tax exempt status. And no doubt there are many skeletons in the closet of these secretive cults.

[knight_of_the_star]

3. Just to point out

What's the difference between organized religion and a cult? The cult leader is dead.

[0007]

15. Yikes!! Kinda like C&H Sugar and big business, 'eh?

[19jet54]

4. The View

Whoopie Goldberg was guest host on "The View" and commented that at a GOP event Mitt Romney was working the room. In the corner sat an old man, bald and occupied in his own world. Mitt approached him to greet him. The old man noticed someone there and looked up, and noticed Mitt wanting his attention; to which the old man shouted "I am not voting for any damn Mormon!" Mitt barely flinched, but conceded and simply walked away.

[Ian David]

5. Also, the new season of Big Love starts this week! n/t

[truebrit71]

19. ROFL!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[GeorgeGist]

6. And well they should ...

They probably wouldn’t bring polygamy back, but they honor the place of it in church history

"I have read the Book of Moron through, have asked God in prayer about the truthfulness of this book, and want everyone of you who read this to know that I HAVE RECEIVED AN ANSWER FROM GOD and know with a certainty that this book is true and written by holy prophets through the influence of the spirit of God. This book`s doctrine is so pure and clear, like living water that enlightens the soul, and has opened my eyes to so many things."
http://my.tele2.ee/lds/isikliki.html#ma

[0007]

17. ........upon reading the link

and taking a hit of acid, I'll sit back & wait for GOD'S answer.

[Ian David]

31. That sounds a lot like people who say the Confederate Flag isn't a racist symbol...

but is a symbol of their "heritage" (which, I guess, includes inciting treason and rebellion).

Not that I necessarily have anything against people who believe that.

Those people are welcome to buy THIS item from my CafePress store:



And those who believe differently can buy THIS one:



Both available HERE:
http://www.cafepress.com/southdiversity

[Ian David]

32. If they really think Polygamy was so bad, then they should have a holiday...

to commemorate the day they were freed from the vile tyranny of Polygamy.

Sort of like a Mormon Passover sort of thing.

They should probably also have a holiday to celebrate the day they decided that black people don't have dark skin as punishment for their sins, and that if they become really good Mormons their skin will actually turn white.

That makes explaining Michael Jackson difficult, though.

But THAT holiday might take a while, since it's only been like... what? Ten years?

[spinbaby]

7. Wait'll the media discovers Mormon underwear

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment

[leftyladyfrommo]

9. We called them "Angel Chaps"

You can always tell the Temple Mormons by their underwear - the underwear is visable under their clothes.

They never are supposed to have it all off at the same time. And it is supposed to protect the wearer from evil.

[kestrel91316]

28. I think my dad's mom wore the Holy Longjohns......

But she never went to church.

Of course, the fact that the ranch was 60 miles out of town might have had something to do with that, and the fact that my grandfather had told the Mormon bishops and such to NEVER darken his door again. After he died the men came around all the time again asking my nearly destitute grandmother for money. My uncles ran them off, but they kept coming back.

[leftyladyfrommo]

8. I lived in Salt Lake for several years and it does not surprise me

that the Church doesn't like this close scrutiny. They are very private and even secretive about a lot of things.

You know, polygamy isn't the big thing that should be questioned. There are a lot of very strange things that go on. Like Baptism of the dead - Mormons believe that theirs is the only true church and the only way into the heavenly kingdom. So they actually baptise the dead in the Mormon faith so that they can get into heaven. A live person stands in the the dead - maybe for 10 or 12 dead people at a time - and is baptised in the tmple. They have thus baptised hundreds of thousands of dead people in this way. They tried to baptise the Jews killed in the Holocaust but the families of the Jewis survivors complained so they quit that practice.

I mean - this is not a regular Christian church by a whole big long shot. I am surprised that the Evangelicals haven't just had a fit. I can only think they don't really understand what this religion is like.

[kestrel91316]

29. I don't have a big problem with how they choose to practice their

religion, as long as they keep their hands off my rights. My big beef with them is their relentless, aggressive pursuit of absolute theocracy.

Killing the dissenters and stealing wives from married men back in the old days was a pretty bad thing, now that I think of it. But we won't blame today's Mormons for the actions of their ancestors 150 years ago.

[Coventina]

10. The Mormon "church" needs more scrutiny.

They are a cult/mafia.

Why are their temples closed to non-Mormons?

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. They do secret stuff in the temple. No one who is non mormon gets

in. Not even all Mormons can get in.

They do sealings and marriages and baptising in there. Everyone wears all white. No religious stuff at all - Mormons don't believe in any kind of religious things - like crosses. Their churches are all plain.

Where the Church needs to be scrutinized is that it is big business. They own land everywhere and pay no taxes on it. They are very involved business - huge companies.

[Coventina]

12. That's just creepy. If they want to be secret, they need to not

claim tax exemption. Why should the taxpayers underwrite something they can't have access to? That's just wrong.

And yes, their financial dealings need scrutineering.

[NoodleyAppendage]

14. The secret temple rituals are nothing more than a bastardization of 19th C. Masonic ritual.

There's the crossing of the chest and neck to symbolize disembowelment and beheading if one does not hold to LDS tenets and betrays the "temple," which is straight out of Masonic ritual. The point is that Smith and Young borrowed heavily from the Masons when coming up with their brand of religous idiocy (not differentiated from other religious idiocy).

J

[leftyladyfrommo]

20. There is certainly some of that - but it goes a lot further.

Brigham used a lot of Masonic symbols, too.

[triguy46]

26. Joseph Smith's job prior to being shown the gold tablets...

was as a for hire fortune hunter. He would tell area farmers that he had a 'magic hat' that when pulled down over his eyes would allow him to find buried treasure on their farms.

What stands in contrast to the Judeo-Christian histories is that there is no mormon archeological evidence. None. Yet they ascribe to a great battle with hundreds of thousands of warriors fighting in north america, with metal weaponry that had not been invented at the time of the supposed battle, post-Christ's death. There is a very quiet, highly funded effort of BYU and the mormon church to find some scintilla of hard evidence, of a sword, a helmet, something that would corroborate their stories.

this stands in contract with the Judeo Christian history that is chronicled by many non-invovled and involved parties.

[leftyladyfrommo]

38. They keep hunting and not finding.

I was studying Anthropology at the University of Utah. The department just hated it when BYU would get ahold of potential sites - because they were always just looking for the plate and for their history.

They also tried to claim that the Mayan and Aztec sites were proof the Mormon history in Middle America. That worked until the language on the walls and buildings and things was decoded and the writings had nothing to do with the Mormons at all.

But they do keep trying.

[kestrel91316]

30. They have sort of copied the secret society thingie from the Masons, IIRC.

Also, one of their rituals involves swearing some sort of oath to cut their own throats (they even act it out) if they ever go against the church, and they like to keep that part secret.

[Arugula Latte]

13. I think this is hilarious.

There's a subtext that it makes perfect sense to believe the "mainstream" line that Jesus (apparently the only magical being in the 6 billion year history of Earth) died and for our sins but will come back aaaaany day now, winged angels fly around in Heaven (a fluffy-cloud paradise that is guarded by St. Peter), an omnipotent yet invisible human-like creature hovers over Earth (a small planet in an insignificant galaxy in an unimaginably vast universe) and responds to prayers (especially if they are said by humans who clasp their hands and bow their heads), etc. ... Yes, that all makes PERFECT SENSE. Yet, somehow the Mormons, who have their own wacky brand of delusions, are suspect for believing in magical underwear.

:rofl:

It's ALL mythology and fairytales. One is not any more ridiculous than the next -- they're ALL absolutely ridiculous!

[leftyladyfrommo]

21. Well, Mormons actually believe that if they "do right" they

will become gods and be given their own planet to rule over.

That is a little on the far out side.

[triguy46]

24. The "do rights" all tend to be church merit badge oriented...

e.g. marrying a mormon. marrying a mormon in the temple. doing your assignments in the church are given to you. All very inward looking, and since their heavenly assignment when they die, i.e. which of the 3 heavens they get to go to are such works, it would seem to be in direct opposition to the concept of 'grace' which Christianity is based upon.

[leftyladyfrommo]

36. Yea. I think works is the word here. Not grace.

But there is an argument that the early Christian church believed in works, too. Versus Paul and the whole grace thing.

Children in Salt Lake grow up belonging to lots of Mormon groups. Sunday school, priesthood, women's groups - it just goes on and on. And good Mormon boys all go on Missions (which their families pay for). Then they come home and marry a good Mormon girl, get married in the temple - get sealed to their spouse for eternity. Go to church all day Sunday. Live right, do right.

And then they die and become a God.

The way to live a good life is pretty set in stone.

[fishwax]

35. what really sets them apart is not their beliefs, but their level of intervention into

the lives of the members. All beliefs are weird, and I, too, find the subtext that you point out in the first paragraph pretty funny. But the mechanisms of control are much more extensive than in, say, the Catholic church.

[leftyladyfrommo]

37. Oh yes. Good Mormons are controlled by the church.

But there are a lot of what they call Jack Mormons in Salt Lake. They belong to the church but they don't practice the religion. But they don't leave the church because of their family ties.

Jack Mormons are often the most critical of the church. And many are really bitter.

[Politicub]

16. No more bizarre than other religions

Sure the temple underpants and sci-fi planetary ruler aspects are strange, but Mormonism is no more strange that Christianity or Scientology, for that matter.

[leftyladyfrommo]

22. I think it's a lot more strange than other Christian religions.

And of course women can only gain access to the highest heaven (there are 3 levels) thru marriage and thru having as many children as possible.

I, however, find the whole concept of "sealing" people together in the afterlife to be extremely strange. You get married and sealed in the temple and then you spend all eternity together.

I'm not sure what happens if the people discover they can't stand each other. I think there must be an unsealing ceremony.

[triguy46]

25. It's not Christian.

They call themselves 'christian' but they only meet their own definitions. Their definitions are not held by ANY other denomination. There is much in common with all Protestant denominations, and they share much with Catholicism. But the mormon belief structure was all invented by Joseph Smith. It's all a new story. You may believe Christianity is an old story, which is fine, just don't confuse mormonism with Christianity.

[Trillo]

18. What bothers me about Mormons today...

is that I understand they do not believe in the circulation of money to all: They'll take money from a non-Mormon, but I also understand they either will, or there's pressure to, not knowingly purchase from a non-Mormon, instead only from other Mormons.

In this sense, if what I understand is still true, their beliefs seem ultimately similar to those of Corporate's parasitism of 'consumers'.

While this belief may be fine for a private party to possess, when that belief of monetary exclusion ascends to public office and leadership positions, there seems a question regarding economic fairness for all citizens, and if so, how can such a leader lead "all citizens" while simultaneously believing that non-Mormons are not deserving of Mormon's money (in a transactional sense)?

Of course this NY Times piece didn't explore this aspect of the 'common Mormon' practice. Perhaps my belief regarding Mormon's economic culture is wrong and/or outdated?

[leftyladyfrommo]

23. They are very clanish that way.

They actually have kind of a welfare system - but it is only for other Mormons.

But lots of Evangelicals do the same kind of thing. They all do business with each other. I know lots of them that do that. They all support each other bigtime.

But in Salt Lake you couldn't even rent an apartment unless you Mormon - not to mention finding work. They always ask if you are a smoker or drinker (which means you are a non Mormon). They don't like to rent to people not of the faith.

In fact just about every aspect of life in Salt Lake was controlled by the church. There were even block teachers who checked on every family once a week to be sure they were living correctly - and they checked for coffee pots and booze and other non allowable stuff.

It is not a democracy.

[Trillo]

34. Thanks, I believed the info was good...

I really have no problem with private people deciding where to spend their money. What I have issue with is the essential hypocrisy of permitting the receipt of money from those whom they will not disperse the same to.

It is, IMO, at its root entrenchment, a deep dishonesty.

[CountAllVotes]

27. yee gads again!

Twice I've written that in one day!

I just got off the phone from talking to a Mormon Bishop (whatever the hell that is) and he was telling me that his ticket for '08 is Thompson/Romney. It was truly a :wtf: moment for me!

He then advised me to buy a ticket to leave the USA before 2008. :wtf: again!!!

:kick:

P.S. Answers appreciated if there are any!

CAV

[CK_John]

33. They also have a computer network that would make the NSA blush. n/t