Musharraf tells mosque militants "surrender or die"

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

Musharraf tells mosque militants "surrender or die"
Sat Jul 7, 2007 11:10AM EDT

By Faisal Aziz

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - President Pervez Musharraf told Islamist
militants barricaded in a mosque on Saturday to surrender or die,
while concern grew for hundreds of women and children inside the
beseiged compound in the Pakistani capital.

"If they don't surrender, I'm saying it here, they will be killed,"
Musharraf said, in his first public comments on the deadly stand-
off in Islamabad.

Hundreds of troops have surrounded the fortified compound
housing Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, and a girls' madrasa, where
clashes between armed students and security forces began on
Tuesday following months of tension.

The death toll rose to 20 after a paramilitary soldier was shot
dead on Saturday morning, though the cleric leading Lal Masjid's
Taliban-style movement said casualties were far higher. There
were unconfirmed accounts of the mosque's defenders burying
more bodies on Saturday.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSISL18833720070707

---

Source: BBC News

Last Updated: Saturday, 7 July 2007, 11:50 GMT 12:50 UK

Pakistan issues mosque ultimatum

Pakistan's president has issued an ultimatum to radical Islamists
barricaded inside an Islamabad mosque, the country's interior
minister says.

President Pervez Musharraf reportedly told mosque leaders to free
women and children "or face the consequences".

He spoke as troops on the streets stopped a delegation of Islamist
politicians from entering the mosque.

Hundreds of people have been holding out inside the mosque, now
surrounded by troops and armoured vehicles.

-snip-

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6280172.stm

[montanacowboy]

1. The little dictator is getting desparate

trying to look good for his American masters, he will do anything to stay in power, just like Maliki; if they have to kill their own people, so be it, just as long as the money and power keep flowing.

[Igel]

10. I don't think we'd allow it in the US.

Say the National Cathedral is taken over, as well as a local library. Members patrol the perimeter with guns. Gangs start kidnapping people whose behavior isn't up to snuff with the cathedral's occupiers. They threaten to burn down or blow up video and music stores in the area, making sure that the owners are removed from the world as well.

Their main grievance is some 6 or 7 churches that they build on federal land were razed for lack of permits; the goverment had graciously donated land, but it was deemed inferior and the group just took what it wants. The federal government decides to avoid violence and promises to rebuild the churches, at public expense, ever greater and grander than they were. And yet the occupiers perceive this to be weakness: The government gave us 7 large plots of land and millions for our churches, maybe they'll set us up over the rest of the country.

So the occupiers demand that the country adopt their religious law, and starts to enforce it itself, "trying" those that it kidnaps. It declares that the *occupiers* are the only just court system and that others shouldn't go to state or US courts; and, in fact, hundreds of people go to this alternative court system for adjudication, with the group's members enforcing the court's decrees. It declares a death sentence on a cabinet member who behaves 'inappropriately'. It also declares that it has thousands of people outside the cathedral ready to go on a murder spree for righteousness, and should any action be taken to evict the group from their cathedral and the library they're occupying many thousands of innocents will be killed, just to show how bad the secular government is.

Do you actually like that sort of behavior? Or do you think everybody on earth thinks the US is so almighty important that the only reason to actually enforce some sort of order is, well, the US's wishes? Really, the US isn't *that* important.

[toopers]

17. Can you say David Koresh?

eom

[ohio2007]

2. Musharraf’s plane shot at

Musharraf’s plane shot at
By BBC Online
Fri, 6 Jul 2007, 13:33:00

Email this article
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Access News Photos

Pakistani police have sealed off a house in the city of Rawalpindi amid reports of an attempt to shoot down President Pervez Musharraf's plane.

Reports say the house was under the flight path of Gen Musharraf's plane.

A photographer for the Reuters news agency said there were two large guns mounted on the roof of the house. A military spokesman denied any firing had taken place. Gen Musharraf's travel plans are highly secret. He has survived two assassination attempts. In addition, the authorities say they have foiled at least three other conspiracies to kill him. The president was flying from the Chaklala air base in Rawalpindi, a garrison town close to the capital, Islamabad, to see flood damage in Balochistan province. He arrived safely, officials say. People living near the house in Rawalpindi say they heard shots being fired. "We heard the sound of gunfire," Mohammed Ishraq told the BBC's Urdu service. "When we arrived here we heard that it was some sort of terrorism."

Another man, Ishaq Ahmed, said: "Everyone heard a firing sound. The firing sound was like a bomb blast. It was that kind of sound." An anti-aircraft gun and a light machine gun, as well 100 rounds of ammunition and two satellite antennas from the residence have been recovered from the house, Deputy Inspector General of police Marwat Ali Shah told the BBC.

snip

The incident comes amid anger among many in Pakistan at Gen Musharraf's decision to take on Islamic radicals at the Red Mosque in Islamabad.

snip

http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/publish/article_37353.shtml

[gratuitous]

3. Dang, Bush has to be jealous of that!

"Surrender or die" could have been part of the Bush lexicon with "Mission accomplished," "Bring 'em on," and "Wanted dead or alive." Bush will probably send Musharraf a congratulatory telegram (provided Musharraf is alive long enough to get it).

[Greeby]

7. Nah, that's a little too honest for Shrub nt

[Cant trust em]

4. Who has a problem with killing militants...

...that hold innocent women and children hostage in a mosque? I really don't care if this is all just a ploy for him to stay in power. If he truly (key word truly) wants to eliminate al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups in his country then I hope he does stay in power.

[The_Commonist]

5. I have a problem with killing militants...

...that hold innocent women and children hostage in a mosque.

I have a problem with anybody killing anybody. For any reason. Once you head down that slippery slope, it becomes very difficult to get off. When you kill militants that hold innocent women and children hostage in a mosque, you make martyrs out of them, and that only helps to create more militants. Do you understand this concept?

I don't like militants and I don't like their tactics. However, simply killing them is using the same tactic that they use. Terror begets terror, until it's impossible to tell who is a "terrorist" and who isn't.

I think that militants that hold innocent women and children hostage in a mosque should all be caught and put away for the rest of their lives. They should not be martyred. They should be made to suffer for their actions, not given 72 virgins for their final reward. The little kids in the madrasah see them being martyred, and want to be just like them when they grow up. If they saw them rotting for the rest of their lives in prison, maybe they would find a different role model.

Does this make sense?

Besides, I have a problem with the state taking the lives of its citizens. You should too...

[brentspeak]

8. Uh, there isn't a competent police force in the world that wouldn't hesitate to use deadly force

if that was the only option left for them to free hostages. What planet are you from?

[The_Commonist]

12. If that's the only option.

I'm from the planet Earth, and I'm a member of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Pleased to meet you. Where are you from?

If that's the only option.
Keep repeating that.
If that's the only option.
We've created a civilization where so many people want that to be the only option.
If that's the only option.
If we were to use the big brains that we have, we could make it so that killing people is not the only option.

Or, do you like things the way they are?
I do not...

[donkeyotay]

13. It makes sense to me, Commonist

Killing those people will make them martyrs and feed more opposition. I don't know why our leadership pretends to not understand this - except maybe there's no money in it. It's like using a finesse in bridge or using jujitsu. This should have been our first line of defense on Sept. 12, 2001. I'm not saying it should be our only defense, but it should have been first in our minds. As you say, we have blurred the line so that part of the world sees us as the terrorists, and most of the world finds our motives suspect to say the least.

you put this very well: I don't like militants and I don't like their tactics. However, simply killing them is using the same tactic that they use. Terror begets terror, until it's impossible to tell who is a "terrorist" and who isn't.

It reminds me when the CIA was still claiming they didn't use torture. They said that when they had taken people into custody, and they didn't torture them, but treated them humanely, that sometimes those same people had become informants for them. Theoretically, the CIA was saying that taking the high moral ground was also smart. Supposedly, America was operating on the same principle - we were offering the world a better deal, a better way of life. Not that anyone believes any of this anymore, and I blame george for thinking he knew better than all the laws and treaties. His ethical short cuts have caused us great harm.

[pettypace]

14. Look at the situation realistically

I admire your nonviolence perspective, but with these Pakistani hardliners, the approach will not work in the long run. If these people know they can carry out such foul and drastic actions without being severely punished, it will embolden them greatly.

Let me be clear, the people Musharraf is targeting are the same group that would attack US interests without hesitation, and let me ask you, if these events occurred on the US homeland, would you still insist on your restrained strategy.

For Pakistan's sake, let Musharraf be true to his word, I say.

[The_Commonist]

21. OK

I don't have to like it, and I don't have to pay lip service to supporting this kind of thinking.

Actually, I kinda like Musharraf. I could have a glass of wine with him.

[ohio2007]

22. Glass of wine?

Alcohol ? you want to stir that pot in parts of Pakistan ?

Rather a decadent infidel crusader you are ;)

[pettypace]

27. Musharraf has been unfairly impugned

in the Western press, especially the NYTimes. The word dictator is thrown around so easily as if he is some malevolent brute. My goodness did people not witness his last tour of the US...he was a guest on Jon Stewart's show! He's well spoken, highly educated, and acutely aware of the danger that lies in his backyard.

The man is most qualified to lead an emerging Pakistan in its current volatile state, and his resume is impeccable, compared to his predecessors. If the head of the army - a former commando and veteran of two wars, can be targeted by extremists, I shudder to think how a (moderate) civilian leader will fare or even have the ability to counteract the Islamist's violent methods...once again brute force would inevitably be required. It is simply evident that these countries need a strong ruler to avoid chaos (see Iraq). Pure western style democracy is untenable for the time being, sadly.

I can only infer the American papers like the Times have such disdain for the General partly due to his apparent camaraderie with GWB. How unfortunate, bc in Pakistani terms, Musharraf would be considered progressive.

Cheers to you, Commonist, for sharing in my regard for the gentleman.

[Cant trust em]

29. Ideally no one would have to kill anyone...

but sometimes it's not an option. If we could capture all of these people without killing them then that would be great, if only it were that easy. That being said if they get into a firefight with some of our military we might have to shoot back.

[Eugene]

11. The hard part is taking out the militants without a massive loss of innocent lives.

If troops launch an assault the mosque and hundreds
of women and children are killed in the crossfire,
ordinary Pakistanis may blame Musharraf, not the
militants. The militants are counting on that.

Musharraf can win Islamabad and lose political
authority.

After all, how many Americans blamed the Waco fire
on our government instead of the crazies in the
compound?

[ohio2007]

28. punch enough holes in the compound walls to make it look like swiss cheese and maybe a few mice

can break out before suicide vests become all the fashion rage inside the red mosque.
old NPR article;
Middle East
Pakistani Religious Schools to Defy Expulsion Order


Morning Edition, December 30, 2005 ·
Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has ordered religious schools to expel all foreign students by Saturday, but the governing body of the country's 1,200 madrassas said it will resist. The order was issued in July after the terrorist bombing in London in an effort to fight religious extremism.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5075539

I recall a few years ago that many of the students in these madrassas are there because their parents couldn't afford to feed them let alone send them off to school. They were glad for the Saudi financed shcools that provided one meal a day and 'education' that went with it.

Some of these same parents protested en mass that their children were being sent,bare footed,across the Afghan border ( without permission ) only to be cannon fodder of the great jihad !!
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:qtQodnn9PmwJ:www.ipcs.org/Jul_05_pakistan.pdf+parents+in+pakistan+protest+about+madrassas+sending+their+children,without+permission+into+Afghanistan&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

[Cant trust em]

30. I'm not really qualified to discuss military tactics

I don't know how they go about doing what they do, I'm just saying that we might have to take some actions that will take the lives of terrorists/militants.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. What makes you think the women are innocent victims and not active militants

some of the started with the radical women militants...

[fujiyama]

19. He doesn't want to eliminate anything

because if he did, he would have actually done something over the last few years.

Instead, he's made a shitty situation in Afghanistan worse, and has hoodwinked the US into pouring billions in military "aid".

[ckramer]

6. yep, kill them all - if you are not with us you are against us!

LOL

[Marrah_G]

23. You do realize these are insane people with views much like the Taliban right?

These are extreme fundamentalists. The kind that sell young girls into marriage and oppress women to the point where they are less then human.

He is right to crack down on these people. They have been spreading their disgusting views, strong-arming people through fear and violence all along the Afghanistan border. These are not a group of nice people being persecuted.

[ckramer]

24. And we also know that without the presures from the US

he probably wouldn't do that.

[ohio2007]

25. And the Saudi funding would continue to flow into these "institutions of higher learning"

that spread this festering cancer of thought control.
72 virgins if you blow up non believers!
What a crock they teach. That also goes for the latest line of MSM BS claiminng their sources mentioned "female students" attend the madrassas also.
I hope the Paki special forces can grab financial records before they get destroyed but that is wishfull thinking at best.

[Marrah_G]

26. I don't think we can say that

There are plenty of Pakistani's that are not interested in living under the extreme laws that those people want to impose. It is in America's best interest to help keep a comparably moderate government in place there. Pakistan has nukes. If the world doesn't help support a moderate government there then the heroin rich Taliban will take control of both the government AND the Nukes.

The enemy of our enemy is NOT our friend.

[VTMechEngr]

9. Hey, at least he's not taking the Machiavelli approach!

The proper approach in feudalistic society would have been to demand surrender and when it was not given, set the place on fire and kill anyone who ran out. Only takes a few incidents ending like that to put a stop to this crap. Its brutally effective, and makes hostages and human shields worthless.
Its completely unfair for the hostages, but hey, what's a few peasants worth in relation to maintaining your rule.


One has to wonder if the actions of the militants will succeed in regressing society to the medieval ages after all.

[ohio2007]

18. The attack on the mosque plays well on the home front of Musharraf

Red Mosque attack boosts Musharraf

The Lal or 'Red' Mosque crisis has eased Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's path to his political ambitions, according to the news station Radio Pashto.

The radio suggested on Saturday that the attack on the Red Mosque, which vehemently backs al-Qaeda, has helped the president attain certain goals, both in the national and international arenas.

Radio Pashto pointed to the commotion caused by the Red Mosque attack, which completely eclipsed the Pakistani oppositions' meeting in London on Saturday, and noted that the president has obtained permission to run for the next round of elections. Clearly the clamor has worked to his benefit in both cases.




snip

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=15733§ionid=351020401

He is willing to crush the opposition that wants an Islamic run state

[DavidMS]

15. Musharraf is in a tough spot.

He can either negotiate / back down when dealing with Taliban forces or can attempt to beat then into submition. The first option will end with the President for Life being deposed and Takfirists getting Pakistani nukes. The second option is to try beating the movement into submition. Either way I wouldn't write a life insurance policy for Musharraf.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IG07Df01.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IG06Df03.html

The Pakistani elite created the monster and now have to face it. The big lesson here is never give anything to religious radicals, it only comes back to haunt you.

[fujiyama]

20. For all the terrorism that basket case nation has exported

it's really starting to cause problems back home...

It's too bad that in the end, only the innocent will suffer, while the powerful can always run and hide.

This is tough talk for Mushy. What will he do? Take a cue from Putty Put and and up killing most of the hostages like what happened in Russia a few years ago? Mushy is just another tin pot dictator. He's done a clever job fooling western leaders into believing he's some sort of secular reformist leader meanwhile taking a few billion in military aid.