Pope angers Jews, Liberals with Rite

[BushOut06]

Source: AP

VATICAN CITY (July 7) - Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday removed restrictions on celebrating the old Latin Mass, reviving a rite that was all but swept away by the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

The decision, a victory for traditional, conservative Roman Catholics, came over the objections of liberal-minded Catholics and angered Jews because the Tridentine Mass contains a prayer for their conversion.

Benedict, who stressed that he was not negating Vatican II, issued a document authorizing parish priests to celebrate the Tridentine rite if a "stable group of faithful" requests it. Currently, the local bishop must approve such requests - an obstacle that supporters of the rite say has greatly limited its availability.

"What earlier generations held as sacred remains sacred and great for us, too," Benedict wrote.

Read more: http://news.aol.com/story/_a/pope-angers-jews-liberals-with-rite/20070707201509990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. Well, he's right about this part:

"What earlier generations held as sacred remains sacred and great for us, too," Benedict wrote.

In a word, that would be "uniformity" of religious practice and belief.

Which is not to say that Talmud- burning and heretic-hunting are *necessarily* the next step.

But one gets the impression that that's where he is ( they are; it is), in a general way, headed.

[churchofreality]

138. Religion = Kooks

[Maribelle]

2. Angers Liberals?????

No where in the article does it speak of anger from liberals. MSM takes every chance it can to paint liberals completely dark, and this is a fine example.


The transparent frauds should be forced to explain to all how “suggestions” and “criticism” translate to "anger" in their neoconservative vernacular.

[merwin]

3. It does talk about liberal minded catholics.

I don't see a problem with this. It's true that what he did is bring back a very conservative rite, which in turn would upset liberal members of the catholic faith.

[Maribelle]

5. I would think that "Liberal-minded Catholics" have a lot more to worry about than this.

I disagree that liberal-minded Catholics would be "angry" over this, while I think they would still be critical.

"Liberal-minded Catholics" should be "angry" that this pope has not condemed Bush and his illegal war, his cluster bombing of innocent children, his crimes against humanity and against our planet.

[merwin]

6. People can be angry at more than one thing at a time.

This article was about one subject... a subject that will anger liberal catholics.

[Maribelle]

9. I totally disagree with the "angry" bit over this.

It's truly a small issue.

However - - - - - - painting liberals as angry over this is important to right wing hate mongers. Get it?

[Book Lover]

21. For those who worked very hard on the Vatican II reforms,

angry is not a bad word to choose. Do you prefer the Latin Rite?

[saigon68]

38. Not to mention his agents

His priests fondling little boys

[bitchkitty]

83. Tired of it -

I'm Catholic, I have relatives who are priests, and they NEVER touched a child in a sexual manner, in their lives, nor did they ever think about it.

It's true that there are pedophiles in the clergy - as there are pedophiles ANYWHERE that they can get access to kids. Please don't paint the whole Church with that brush.

[JuniperLea]

110. There are Catholic priests who have not done such things

And although I sympathize with your concerns here, the entire Catholic church is very much to blame for allowing this to happen to so many for so long... and all the Cardinals, Bishops and Popes who swept it under the carpet... and all the families of those priests who said nonsensical things like, "they never even thought about it" which is absurd and cannot be proved.

I've a friend who never even made it through the Seminary because of what was being done to him... and no one... I repeat in bold... NO ONE was ever punished or admonished in any way for their behavior... if you yell loudly, that priest MIGHT be transferred. Maybe. Just maybe.

Until there is REAL work done to clean up their act, the entire Catholic Church does indeed need to be painted with that very broad brush... and the same brush should be used for other organizations full of apologists who would show such righteous indignation at the expense of children.

The truly spiritual Catholics agree with this. You cannot harm the true spiritual nature of people without their full consent.

[eridani]

127. You're right, but that isn't the problem

A few priests are pedophiles because of human nature and statistics, and are no more likely to tend that direction than anybody else. The problem is the institutional cover-up, which lasted for 20-30 years in some cases.

[LanternWaste]

111. High school teachers, too

High school teachers, too-- since we're applying broad brush strokes and all...

:sarcasm:

[AngryOldDem]

96. While Benedict has not often criticized Bush...

John Paul II on many occasions spoke out against the war in Iraq, in Bush's presence, in some instances. The Church has also been vocal on environmental issues.

"Liberal-minded" Catholics are angry in that Benedict and the right-wing of the Church seem to want to roll back many of the reforms of Vatican II, which made the Church more open and accessible. He is kow-towing to a small but vocal minority who would like nothing more (in stark terms) to return Catholicism to the Middle Ages. In the Latin Rite Mass there is a lot of terminology that is anti-semitic -- in the Good Friday liturgy, for example, Jews are directly blamed for the Crucifixion, also, prayers are offered for the "conversion of the Jews." Many conservatives will try to spin this, but the language is there.

If people want to attend a Tridentine Rite, fine. A lot of people miss it and a lot of people think that it is what's needed to restore dignity and reverence to the Mass, which they say was lost with the reforms of VII. But the problem lies if this change is forced on the rest of the laity -- and many Catholics think that this is just the first of many reforms that will do just that.

I think it is a HUGE step backward for the Church, and undoes much of the ecumenical outreach begun by John Paul II. That is the real shame in all of this.

ON EDIT: Fact correction on Good Friday liturgy.

[eridani]

128. Leave out the "conversion of the Jews" part, and there's a lot to be said for the Latin Mass

A neopagan friend of mine once said "In the 60s, the Catholic Church took a new look at its Magickal Latin Mass and at its birth control position. It picked the wrong thing to change."

[AngryOldDem]

141. By far, the birth control position has damaged the Church the most

It was on the verge of changing it until a handful of curia convinced Paul VI that if he did change course, his authority would be undermined. Lot of irony in that.

[Zodiak]

107. No Pope does that

they didn;t do it when Hitler was rnning rampant, and they aren't doing it now.

The Catholic Church is a power-broker and always has been. Its followers might be the most saintly in the world, but that Church has been responsible for a great deal of evil over the years and has been consistent in not standing up to aggressive Dictators....unless they aren't Christian.

Ratzinger's election to me is proof that the Roman Catholic Church has no desire to change. I share Father Guido Sarducci's disgust.

[SemperEadem]

27. Vatican 2 was considered to be a liberal device, in that one of the things

that needed to be changed was Latin was no longer the required language for the liturgy. Having a mass said in the native tongue of the country in which it was being said was one of the things which the Catholic Church has opposed for centuries until the 1960's when V2 came about. That was one of the things the reformation in the 15th century sought to abolish---from the Lollards of the 13th century all the way to the Lutherans and then Calvinists; they wanted the mass in their native tongues and Rome said NO and went so far as to persecute/burn people for heresy for wanting it.

[fishwax]

60. liberal catholics are right to be concerned, and I don't think

angry carries a particularly negative connotation here.

[Branjor]

4. I am surprised

that it only contains a prayer for the conversion of jews, as conservative catholics also think protestants are going to hell, to say nothing of muslims and all the rest. Why not have a prayer for the conversion of ALL of them? Why single out just jews?

[Maribelle]

8. Are protestant marriages still condemned by this pope?

While radical right protestants throughout the country are tying to sidle up to catholics, and make them part of their Theocracy because of their sheer numbers, some of the protestant messages probably fall flat in the face of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

For instance: Gay Marriage. All civil ceremonies and all marriages performed by break-away churches are not recognized by God. So when protestants scream about gay unions destroying marriage, the Pope might just snicker at them and scratch his head.

[Orsino]

12. There's an interesting question.

Just who does His Holiness think is actually married on planet Earth? Only those who stood before one of his priests? Are billions, in his eyes, living in sin? If not, does he acknowledge divine blessing can fall on non-Catholics or even non-Christians?

[Branjor]

24. Yes, billions are living in "sin"

My catholic grandfather married a protestant wife in a civil ceremony. In order for him to be buried a catholic, they had to be remarried in the catholic church, which they did several years before his death. I don't even know if my grandmother had to convert or if she ever did.

[ClassWarfare2008]

39. The Catholic church officially considers all other churches as "heretics"

And any marriages performed in these "heretical" churches would therefore be invalid. Let alone those married by a justice of the peace or some other secular means. Only a marriage in the Catholic church is valid "in the eyes of God".

[LibDemAlways]

44. The Catholic Church is interested in Catholics

following church laws about marriage. Catholics are allowed to marry in non-Catholic ceremonies provided that they have prior approval from their bishop (called a dispensation).

The only time the church would butt into the marriage of a man and a woman who were not Catholic would be if they divorced and one of them wanted to convert to Catholicism or marry a Catholic in a Catholic ceremony.

Interestingly, enough, I know of several priests who have married and now rent themselves out as ministers for non-denominational wedding ceremonies. Hugh Hefner and his wife, who have long since separated, were married by one such defrocked priest. Seems that not everyone - including priests - always follow the "rules."

[SharonAnn]

90. Actually, the sacrament of Catholic marriage doesn't require a priest. It does require witnesses

This may seem strange, but it's true.

Now, there are details about who can be married according to the laws of the Church, it usually revolves around their status (single, of sound mind, of their free will, etc.). but I was taught in Catechism class that the sacrament of marriage is not "administered or performed" by a priest.

[DemSoccerMom]

23. I don't know if they're "condemned," but

my husband couldn't take communion in a Catholic church after we married.

I'm Lutheran, and when we married in 2001, we were married in my home church. The Christmas after our wedding (we were married in October), we went to his church, a Roman Catholic church in the Coal Region of Pennsylvania. He went up for Communion and was told BY THE PRIEST that he could no longer take communion because he was wed outside of the Catholic church. He has since coverted to the Lutheran church.

That's INSANE!

Oh, and as far as the Church is concerned, our two daughters are bastard children, b/c, according to the church, we are not wed. The Catholic church does not recognize our marriage b/c we were not wed in a Catholic church.

I fully understand that each church is entitled to its doctrine, but I find this particular aspect of the Catholic religion both disturbing and quite frankly, a little sickening.

EDIT for clarity.

[DemBones DemBones]

45. I think that if you asked a Canon lawyer you'd find that

the Catholic Church does consider your marriage valid and your children legitimate. You're not Catholic, of course, but that doesn't mean your marrriage is invalid or your children illegitimate.

Protestants, including my husband and me, convert to Catholicism all the time and their non-Catholic marriages, even civil marriages, are considered valid, their children legitimate.

Nothing is required to make the marriage of converts valid or the children legitimate, they are just accepted as such.

If you become Catholic and were validly baptized in another denomination, you don't have to be baptized again, either. (Valid baptism requires the use of water and the proper formula: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." ) Some denominations do require re-baptism of converts: Baptists, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses being three that I know of.

Every religion has rules to which members are supposed to adhere. If you'd married a Jewish man, your children would not be considered Jewish because to be Jewish you must have a Jewish mother. In such a case, the children would have to convert to Judaism. Rabbis encourage their flocks to marry other Jews.

If you are raised in a particular faith, you are expected to follow its rules. Didn't your husband know that Catholics are supposed to marry in the Catholic Church? The reason is that Marriage is a Sacrament in the Catholic Church, which it is not in the Lutheran or other Protestant denominations. You would not have been required to convert to have a Catholic wedding; it's much easier for Catholics to marry non-Catholics than it was fifty years ago.

Only a Canon lawyer could say for sure whether your husband excommunicated himself by marrying outside the Catholic Church. The priest may have been wrong to deny him Communion.

[dflprincess]

65. A Catholic who marries in another church is not excommunicated

but, because the marriage is not recognized by the Catholic church the individual is considered to be "living in sin". Because the Cahtolic church says you have to be in a state of grace to receive Communion you can't receive it if you're planning to go on sinning. This a rule I never understood because, regardless of what the "sin" it would seem to me that a sinner is more in need of the sacraments than a saint.

When my mother was young (she's 83 now) she used to make her mother crazy by telling her that she thought she'd get married by a judge. Then, if it looked like it would work out she'd get remarried by a priest, if it didn't work out then she could get a divorce and marry someone else (this is what passed as rebellion in the early 1940s). Though, when the time came, my parents were married by a priest but my dad wasn't Catholic at the time so they couldn't have a big wedding in the parish church, they had to be married in the rectory with just a few guests present.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. What about just erasing the concept of "illegitimate children?" -nt

[JerseygirlCT]

118. Not to mention counter-productive if your aim is to invite

people in.

My sister had a great deal of trouble finding someone to baptise her children. Since she hadn't been married in the church, several priests refused. How stupid is that?

(She found the former chaplain of our HS, who was happy to do it, btw).

[Bridget Burke]

85. No.

Once a marriage is entered into between any two persons, Catholic, Protestant, or non-Christian, it is presumed to be a valid and binding union until the contrary can be proven. And as long as a person is bound to a previous valid marriage, the Church does not permit a second marriage to take place.

www.stcdio.org/annulment.htm

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Older forms of Protestant prayer books contained prayers for the

conversion of Jews and Muslims, but they were never an integral part of the service, only one of the optional prayers that most clergy ignored.

I don't know the Tridentine Mass, but is the prayer for the conversion of the Jews a required part of it? Or is it just one of optional Collects?

[Igel]

25. Perhaps Romans 11.

Muslims are simply Gentiles, like Italians and everybody else. But Israel is singled out by Paul--and even by Jesus.

Rom 11
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

[Orsino]

42. Wow. Waffle much, Paul? n/t

[yardwork]

135. I think that it has something to do with the history of the Church.

Jesus was born Jewish.

[semillama]

140. Perhaps the Mass wording predates them

I don't know, just throwing it out there, but if the Mass is truly old, then it very well could predate Luther and Islam - therefore, leaving the Jews for special attention.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

7. Who's surprised by this?

This is why the Church leaders elected Ratzinger in the first place, to resist societal evolution, and to bring back all those wonderful conservative ideals that had worked so well for all those centuries. He's like Ronald Reagan, except the Pope is supposed to wear funny robes.

What the Church (just like the GOP) doesn't realize is that, in these days of post-materialist thinking and easy communication, the old tricks they used to keep the mob under control don't work anymore. This will only succeed in alienating yet more people who might benefit from Christ's teachings. Mind you, Church policy hasn't been in synch with Christ's teachings for over a thousand years, so I guess they don't care too much about that.

[Shipwack]

22. I really don't think this was in their plan...

I think that Pope Ratzinger was meant to be an "interim Pope", someone meant to temporarily hold the office until the College of Cardinals could come up a person they could all agree upon. He was elected on the fourth ballot, not only the eldest Pope in more than 250 years, but with known health problems (a previous stroke).

However, his health has improved, and it seems that he never "got the memo" that he's just supposed to be a placeholder. I don't think that there is a strong majority in the Church to bring back the old ways. Some of Ratzinger's close rivals were more liberal.

[lanlady]

10. This pope is so irrelevant

Even though I'm a fallen Catholic and am pretty much an atheist, I miss JP II.

[Sal Minella]

16. I'm never-was-Catholic, and I miss Pope John XXIII.

We almost had the contraceptive pill under him, and now I feel the Roman church is processing stalwartly into the eleventh century.

[Eurobabe]

126. Agreed

Ratzbag is not long for this world, he's a filler-pope.

[kurth]

13. When are they gonna get a new pope?

a "stable group of faithful" = 2?

[shenmue]

14. Sure, the vast majority of people will have no idea what they're saying...

but why does that matter? :crazy: :sarcasm:

What's so bad about speaking the local language?

If they make it one Mass per week per parish, fine, but if it's every Mass, all the time, then almost every person in the building will just be fumbling with the missals, and forced to not concentrate on what the priest is doing.

It's interesting, Benedict XVI has said he wants to erase the barriers between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

It's the policy of the Orthodox churches to provide the liturgy in the local language.

Just a thought.

This is about more than what sounds pretty. So what if Latin was a tradition? By the time the Church really experienced growth in the early centuries, Latin had changed into Italian. What makes it possible for the faithful to truly understand what's going on? If they can't understand it, will their hearts be in it?

This is a way to make younger people feel out of place. That's all.

[kurth]

17. "The Mass could look like a Catholic amateur hour"

Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, the head of the French Episcopal Conference, warned in the newspaper Le Monde that pressure on priests to offer the Latin Mass, "will seem like a standard aimed at testing the priests' loyalty to the pope." David Gibson, author of a book on the pope's battles with modernism, The Rule of Benedict, predicted the change "will not have a great impact in the pews beyond creating more problems for an already overworked priesthood."

Benedict's efforts to please traditionalists "serve as a wedge in already polarized church, between the conservative right-wing minority, who will never be satisfied, and the rest of the church," Gibson said. "If the church is all about unity, what this does is set up a two-tier system, two kinds of rites and two ways to be Catholic. This move could be seen as a 'correction' on the liturgical front but it's really an ideological move, a way to reinterpret Vatican II by a pope more interested in purity than popularity."

Don't expect an immediate boost in parishes willing, or able, to offer the Latin Mass, which hasn't been taught regularly to priests in 40 years. John Paul II established the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter specifically to train priests in the Latin Mass. Its North American seminary in Nebraska has trained nearly 100 priests so far and, anticipating Saturday's documents, ran special training sessions this spring. But liturgical books with original Latin prayers rather than Latin translations of the modern Mass may be impossible to quickly locate. The director of the Vatican publishing house told Catholic News Service he doesn't even know who holds the copyright to the text.

Gibson says initial offerings of the Mass could look like a Catholic amateur hour. He pictures, "a play where the star, the priest, is like a last-minute stand-in reading from a script he doesn't understand, assisted by mystified altar servers."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-07-07-latinmass_N.htm

[TankLV]

31. It's all fluff and appearance over substance...

Can't have people actually UNDERSTAND what they are doing - it's better to ENTERTAIN them with superficialities - just like the so-called "news" channels/shows and "newspapers"...

It fits in PERFECTLY with our society as it is now in Amerikkka...

The Nazi Pope is catering/fawning to Amerikkkan audiences...

[hedgehog]

15. I suspect this Pope associates the Latin Mass with a

nostalgic past that never existed. Many speak of the beauty of the old rites, but no one ever mentions that it is easier to attend the old rite than to be confronted with the words of Christ in your own language. If we understand what is being said, we might have to act like Christians!

[CatholicEdHead]

19. Probably true, he has encouraged more latin phrases in the current mass

but this is a reachout to bring the Society of St Pius X, the Lebfarve schismatic group back into the fold. I have yet to see any real plans to reach out to the far left of the church yet. If SSPX comes back into the fold I wonder if Lebfarve will be on the road to sainthood, like the Opus Dei founder.

[BearSquirrel2]

37. The beauty of Latin was ...

The beauty of giving the word of Christ in Latin is that the audience could not understand it. Therefore, the clergy could interpret it any way they liked without any possibility for reflective thought from the laity.

I expect that the biggest fallout from this will be to unleash "old guard" priests, shove latin down everyone's throat and swell the ranks of Christmas/Easter Catholics.

[Bridget Burke]

86. Anyone who can read can understand the Latin Mass.

Just follow it in your Missal--which has an English translation. www.sacred-texts.com/chr/lmass/ord.htm

Anyway, most of the Ordinary of the Mass is not "the word of Christ." The Readings from the New Testament--from Epistles & the Gospels, varying by season--were traditionally in English, even in "the old days."

Just how many of the "old guard" priests are left?

[pschoeb]

112. I think vernacular readings were allowed about 1920's

But I believe they had to be read in Latin, and followed by the vernacular. Also the Tridentine Mass, even of 1962, strictly prescribes what readings can be done and on a one-year cycle, while the Novus Ordo allows the priest more choice and has a longer cycle and also more readings from the Bible. The Tridentine usually has one reading from an Epistle(mostly Pauline) and one reading from the Gospels(very limited from some Gospels, like for example Mark, which only had a section read on one Sunday, Tuesday of Holy Week, and Easter Sunday during the year), very occasionally there was an Old Testament text instead, as part of the readings. The Novus Ordo has one reading from the Old Testament, one reading from an Epistle and one reading from the Gospels.

[crim son]

18. I fail to see what would anger either Jews or Liberals.

To me, an ex-Catholic, it's a great big "so what?"

[BushOut06]

26. It's the idea of singling out Jews for conversion

It somehow implies that the Jewish faith isn't good enough, that they have to make a special effort to convert Jews. It's the same thing with evangelical Christians who target Jews. Here in Orlando, there is even a Holy Land "theme park" whose main purpose is to try to convert Jews. Many Jewish people consider these types of actions to be a slap in the face.

[NoPasaran]

34. Point of inquiry

Are you Jewish?

Or are you Catholic?

[BushOut06]

63. I am neither

But I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

[crim son]

102. It doesn't. I was raised as a Catholic and

a big chunk of my family is Jewish. Neither of these facts gives my opinion any real weight, I suspect.

[Book Lover]

30. Do you remember the Good Friday prayer for conversion of the Jews?

"However, the older rite's prayers calling on God to 'lift the veil from the eyes' of the Jews and to end 'the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ' - used just once a year during the Good Friday service - have sparked outrage." http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2121325,00.html

But here's something funny: I was born in 1968, and I remember that prayer in our English missals. It may even have been used, because I have a memory of actively not saying it. Of course, I may be recollecting incorrectly.

[crim son]

61. You know, I don't but I don't question your memory.

I guess what I was thinking is that none of this is new, really. I don't find that it represents a step backward, rather an affirmation of the Church's archaic stance. But I'm not jewish, and religiously speaking, couldn't care less what the Pope declares.

[hedgehog]

69. Here's the problem: It was only during Vatican II and after a lot of work by

an American priest, Father John Courtney Murray that the Church finally acknowledged a right to freedom of religion. There are still some today who maintain that there is no right to live in error. If you don't believe in freedom of conscience, how many steps is it from praying for conversions to forcing conversions? Just because we're "civilized" this year doesn't mean we'll be civilized next year!

[crim son]

74. Good point.

I have trouble imagining Catholics massing in the streets and rounding up the nonbelievers, but then I had trouble imagining the shrub would be re-selected in '04. I need to rethink this one.

[hedgehog]

98. It's a point of contention in the Jewish community, whether Jews are

safer in Israel because it's their country or in the US because of our laws. The problem is, laws can change.

[Solo_in_MD]

20. Tempest in a Teapot

All this does is drop approval of the bishop for having a Latin mass. Neighborhood Catholic Church used to have one mid week for those who preferred it over English. Its not big deal

This is not reversionary, its actually a case of power to the edge and empowerment.

[Doctor_J]

28. That's the way I read it, Solo

Unless something was left out of the article, I don't see the problem. There are people in our parish who still take the communion on their tongues (instead of in hand) and would like to go to a traditional mass like this. If our priest wants to offer them one, what's the deal?

[spirit of wine]

33. god is not GREAT

as the title of Christopher Hitchens new book states. And how religion poisons everything. How true do we see this so often. The believers are the ones that seem to only care enough to draw lines over these distinctions. If and when the time comes to declare my atheism to a uniformed officer I can assure you that so many other things will have happened between now and then that to me it still is of no significance other than how many people it has killed over the ridiculous hair-splitting notion of deities that are imaginary anyway. You cannot insist on another person's fiction, only your own.

[pschoeb]

94. Because all versions of the Tridentine Mass are bigotted

even the 1962 version allowed by this, there are Vatican II Novus Ordo Latin masses that can already be performed by any church that wants to, without permission of the Bishop. This also allows the Tridentine Mass to be said in the vernacular. I would also think it is reversionary if the Mainline Mormon church allowed parishes to reincorporate the sections in the Book of Mormon that said blacks should be slaves, if a few people in the parish wanted to.

Here is the Good Friday Prayer

1962 Tridentine: For the conversion of Jews. Let us pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, you do not refuse your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness.



Novus Ordo: Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption.

[Peregrine Took]

29. I read that he wants a smaller, more cohesive church and isn't as interested

in evangelizing as John Paul II was. True believers only - no lukewarms or "holydays only"

[Jacobin]

32. OMG. A former Hitler Youth member is anti-semitic

I'm SHOCKED.

Knock me over with a feather.

When will the world stop listening to soothsayers and magicians and deal with the world rationally?

[hollowdweller]

41. My Thoughts Exactly. Look at the pope's history. Not a surprise at all

[DemBones DemBones]

50. The Latin Mass will use the 1962 Missal, which does NOT contain the prayer

for conversion of the Jews. But the media can't be bothered by facts.

If you'd lived in Hitler's Germany, you too would have been a Hitler Youth, unless you preferred to be killed.

But why bother with facts when you can attack the pope?

[Jacobin]

59. uhm not really

See: White Rose Society.

Of course, we wouldn't want a religious leader to be fearless, or to be heroic in combating evil or anything.

[Matilda]

73. The members of the White Rose Society were executed by the Nazis.

Like DemBones said - you supported Hitler, or you died.

[Book Lover]

68. I mentioned this elsewhere here

I remember reading the prayer in the missals we used at my parish: we used seasonal ones that had the standard prayers in the front and the weekly readings, etc, in the middle (the hymns were at the end); they were designed to be used for a season and then tossed away. I don't remember it being used at any mass I was at, but that was so long ago...

[pschoeb]

95. The 1962 Missal does contain the Good Friday prayer

1962 Tridentine: For the conversion of Jews. Let us pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, you do not refuse your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness.


Novus Ordo: Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption.


The 1962 is I guess a little better than earlier versions which called Jews, Perfidious. Some Tridentine lovers who are former or current members of the schismatic group Society of St. Pius X make a claim that the 1962 is not anti-semitic, because it removes the line about perfidious Jews, what they don't tell you is really only the word perfidious is removed, and prayers for conversion and fairly nasty tone still exists in the 1962 Missal. Their hoping you'll read, removal of "perfidious Jew", as removing the whole prayer, by the way they phrase it.

[AngryOldDem]

100. The language may have changed, but the subtext is still there.

And it's still offensive. Whenever I hear the prayer for the "conversion of the Jews," I cringe.

I see this whole thing as just one more mile marker on the Church's road to total irrelevance. So much for the influence and legacy of both John XXIII and John Paul II.

I just hope the Trads that have been screaming for this change are happy now. Pretty soon, they'll have the Church all to themselves -- and somehow, I don't think that's what Christ intended.

[xchrom]

35. it would be nothing -- nothing to eleminate the prayer for conversion.

having the mass in latin is fine -- but leave in what cannot be denied as both controversial and wrong -- has to be seen as the goal.

it's not about a latin mass -- it's about creating a dividing line and a concentration power -- or at least a show of power.

[UTUSN]

36. The devil wears Prada

[DemBones DemBones]

40. LISTEN UP: the media is CREATING a "scandal." All the pope is doing is

saying that the Traditional Latin Mass should be available as well as the Novus Ordo (New Order) Mass invented by Vatican II.

Not "instead of" but "in addition to."

And he has said that the 1962 Latin Missal should be used, which does not even contain the prayer for the conversion of the Jews.

It's a completely phony issue.

[Orsino]

43. Unless one believes that the Latin Mass is inherently elitist.

I get just the faintest whiff of "equal time for creationism" in this move. Oh, I see nothing wrong with giving parishes freedom to choose (and I'm sure there are people who love the pomp), but I never even liked the idea of the priestly hierarchy artificially inserted between man and God, much less salvation made contingent on bowing to the chanting of a dead language.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. If Latin is "elitist" so are Hebrew and Arabic, which are the languages

Jews and Muslims worship in. I believe Hindus worship only in Sanskrit as well. Only Catholics gave up their ancient language and it wasn't because the laity objected to Latin. It was because theologians remote from parish life wanted to change things. John XXIII never meant the Council to make the radical changes it did.

Tens, probably hundreds, of thousands of Catholics walked out of church after the Novus Ordo took over and never returned. Vocations to the priesthood and religious life plummeted. The NO has hardly been a success. People are now driving as much as 300 miles one way to attend the TLM. Most of them are younger people who never heard the Latin Mass in childhood but see it as vastly superior to the NO.

If you compared the English translation of the Traditional Latin Mass to the English used in the Novus Ordo, you'd see that there is little relationship between the two. I find that very troubling. Why was the Mass that had been used for centuries so radically altered? Whose agenda is being followed?

[Orsino]

49. Neither Arabic nor Hebrew is a dead language.

At least, not everywhere.

[DemBones DemBones]

52. Latin is still the official language of the Catholic Church and spoken by

those in the Vatican. Prior to Vatican II, Latin was spoken by far more Catholic clergy. All official Church documents are issued in Latin.

Latin is a language worth studying and was more widely studied in the past. When vocations plummeted, hundreds, probably thousands, of Catholic schools in the US closed. These were schools where Latin was taught.

I believe that the Arabic and Hebrew used in worship are different from the Arabic and Hebrew spoken today.

[Orsino]

57. Hence the charge of elitism.

Well, not charge. Just a whiff, as I said. Latin is still studied around the world, but it's used only by the Catholic clergy--not counting the remaining vocabulary in law.

[Malidictus Maximus]

67. The beauty of Latin

is that meanings don't change over time. We can read an apology from a thousand years ago and understand it exactly.
If the SERMON is still in the local language then so what if the rest is in Latin; it's ritual, the cadence and tempo is supposed to calm and free the mind and soul., much like a mantra. Diversity is a good thing.

[redqueen]

132. I was raised Catholic, and I miss the Latin mass for that reason.

It was very soothing... comforting.

The ritual itself is what we seek, what we need.

[Xithras]

109. Everyone should learn latin.

It's a beautiful language, and it's the foundation of most Western European languages. I can speak (with varying levels of intelligibility) English, French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese, and I attribute my understanding of those languages to my learning Latin as a child. Since all of those languages were founded on Latin, learning them has been a fairly straightforward process.

[bleedingheart]

116. and that is the very reason I want to learn Latin...

it is truly a valuable language and for centuries was the language of science....it was the one communal language understood by the educated throughout Europe.

The well educated learned to read and write in Latin and Greek...along with their own language and that of neighboring countries.

[hedgehog]

71. I think you have your timing and attributed motivation wrong.

1. Some people walked out because they were told it was no longer a mortal sin to miss Mass. If they were there only to avoid hell fire, what kind of faith were they following?

2. The massive drop-offs in Mass attendance and departure of priests occurred after the promulgation of Humanae Vitae; the birth control encyclical. There have been many indications over the years that the final encyclical owed more to a fear of losing control of the faithful than an understanding of human sexuality. In my diocese, any priest who didn't toe the Vatican line was "exiled" to a poor parish and those who kow-towed were rewarded with "good" parishes. Many people left then and so did many priests.

3. I interpret "Vocations to religious life plummeted" as a comment on the fact that very few women are choosing to become sisters these days. First of all, consider that in 1964, the only jobs open to women were nursing, teaching, clerking and some factory work. It was still fairly rare for a single woman to be out living on her own. Lest we condemn women today for answering the siren call of modern life, consider also that Vatican II renewed and reformed the Church in many ways. Why would we expect old wine skins to hold new wine? Instead of lamenting that there are fewer sisters these days, why can't we open our eyes to see all the people that God is calling to serve in other ways?

[pschoeb]

101. The 1962 Missal does contain the Good Friday prayer for conversion

Edited on Mon Jul-09-07 04:43 PM by pschoeb
1962 Tridentine: For the conversion of Jews. Let us pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, you do not refuse your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness.


Novus Ordo: Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption.


The 1962 is I guess a little better than earlier versions which called Jews, Perfidious. Some Tridentine lovers who are former or current members of the schismatic group Society of St. Pius X make a claim that the 1962 is not anti-semitic, because it removes the line about perfidious Jews, what they don't tell you is really only the word perfidious is removed, and prayers for conversion and fairly nasty tone still exists in the 1962 Missal. Their hoping you'll read, removal of "perfidious Jew", as removing the whole prayer, by the way they phrase it.

Maybe some Catholics should stop trusting information from fascist Society of St. Pius X members or former members. The Novus Ordo can already be read in Latin without Bishops permission, so there is no reason for Tridentine Mass.

[LibDemAlways]

46. My 84-year-old parents grew up with the

Latin Mass. When they were young, church was a solemn place and the mass was dignified with organ music and hymns.

Today their parish has devolved into a place where guitars and drums are the norm, people yak it up in the aisles before and after mass, people show up in shorts and tank tops, and events like First Communion are prefaced by the children introducing themselves to wild applause and whistling. My parents just sit there shaking their heads. If they and similar-minded traditionalists want to return a modicum of dignity to the mass they attend and the priest is willing to have a once-a-week Latin service, it's fine by me.

[IndianaGreen]

47. Might as well restore another tradition: Have the priest say Mass with his back to the congregation

WWJD?

[DemBones DemBones]

55. That is part of the Traditional Latin Mass. The priest and the people face God

in the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle. The priest faces the people for the readings from the Bible and the sermon, which is in English. For prayers, he, and the people, face God.

BTW, the people have Missals which give an English translation alongside the Latin (or a French translation in France, Italian in Italy, etc.) It's a lie that people "can't understand the Latin Mass."

[Nihil]

88. Brings back memories of childhood!

> The priest and the people face God in the Blessed Sacrament in
> the Tabernacle.

I haven't been to a Catholic service in ages but I can still picture
the "old style" mass that was my first encounter with the church.

> BTW, the people have Missals which give an English translation alongside
> the Latin (or a French translation in France, Italian in Italy, etc.)
> It's a lie that people "can't understand the Latin Mass."

I have still got a Latin+English missal somewhere at home - a present
for my First Communion - but the time that I really remember a Latin
mass was when I went to Belgium: I hadn't even started to learn French
there (never mind Flemish) but could still understand the mass ... just
didn't have a clue what the sermon was about!

Wow ... days long gone ... wonder if some churches will be reviving the
sung Latin mass as well? (Just out of curiosity - my beliefs are different
these days but I still love the atmosphere of an old church or cathedral.)

[DemBones DemBones]

53. Amen to that. nt

[LibDemAlways]

62. I think people who are posting here who aren't Catholic are

making judgments about Catholic traditions they haven't experienced and don't understand.

Last Christmas my mom left church close to tears because the "music director" chose a loud, brassy sing-song number, which included shouting and clapping and bongo drumming - during communion. It was completely undignified and inappropriate. There wasn't a traditional hymn anywhere to be found.

It's not so much the Latin Mass. I'm fine with English. It's the dignity that's completely been done away with. This year small groups of kids made their 1st Communion during Sunday masses over a few weeks. Many of the friends/relatives who showed up had never been in a church before and talked or laughed throughout, because they were taking their cue from the rest of the people who were acting as though they were at a party. Before the mass started, the kids were called up for what the music director called their "Kodak moment" when he invited parents to rush up the aisle for photo ops. He then interviewed each child, asking their names, and thought he was being cute asking the girls, "And who are you wearing?" That got a big laugh. After each child was introduced, people applauded and families called out stuff like "Go Justin!" It was unruly and cringeworthy. It's just plain gotten out of hand.

If it takes a Latin Mass to restore some sense of decorum, bring it on.

[hedgehog]

72. I declare! Whatever gave those people the notion that they

were supposed to celebrate at Mass! And on a happy occasion like First Communion , too!

[LibDemAlways]

77. I had a first communion celebration long ago. It was

a party at home after mass. My mom invited the whole family. We ate cake and ran around and had fun. I am not anti-celebration.

However, the 1st Communion ceremony itself used to be dignified, befitting the occasion. Not the case anymore, at least in my local parish. There's a time and place for cutting loose, cracking jokes, laughing it up - after the ceremony.

[ProudDad]

79. Gad!!!

You're drudging up some horrible memories for me...

Imagine an innocent 10 year old kid closeted in a stuffy confessional booth with an old man in the next compartment, smelling of sweat and cigarettes -- and the intense guilt in this poor kid because he's supposed to come up with some sins and can't think of a fucking one...

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!


My "Church" and Parochial school experience was institutionalized child abuse...


Piss on all flags and
Piss on organized religion...

Me
Recovering Catholic pawn

[LibDemAlways]

91. Oh, I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture of

days gone by. I was one of the second-class "catechism" (as opposed to Catholic school) kids. The nuns were extra mean to us.

Just looking for some sort of happy medium - for those who have any interest - between the nightmare you described and the circus that the experience has turned into today.

[redqueen]

133. Hah, yes... catechism.

Ah, the torments those women thought up... hahaha

[bleedingheart]

115. I told father that I beat my brother over the head with my barbie doll

and father told me..."don't do that anymore"...and I had to say a few hail mary's and sin no more...

I can still remember that....and the best part...I didn't even beat him over the head...it was the most dramatic sin I could make up...so in effect my first confession was a lie!

bwahahahaha

my daughter just had her first communion...what a riot...

i volunteered to help with the communal lesson on the only day they had formal religious instruction and I thought I would get something easy like clean up...nope...I got to teach religion..meanwhile I will admit that I am not exactly the best of catholics....it was rather funny...

[LibDemAlways]

137. Some of the parent volunteers who

teach CCD at my local parish aren't even Catholic, so you were a step ahead of the game there!!

[JerseygirlCT]

51. This man will do so much damage to the RCC in the short time

he has... it's really a shame. And he will also continue to pack the Cardinals with like-minded old fools.

It's very sad for the RCC.

[Venus Dog]

54. We are watching conservatives DE-VOLVE right before our eyes

The traditionalists are a very small minority of the catholic church, but they seem to have an awesome amount of power - this would include the Opus Dei types as well as the Tridentines (of which Mel Gibson belongs).

This decision is so totally medieval that it's ludicrous!

May I remind all that Ratzinger's previous job was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) (Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei) - the modern name for the Holy Office of the Inquisition.

[DemBones DemBones]

56. Your ignorance of Catholicism is impressive. nt

[Venus Dog]

58. Well, that really put me in MY place!

Gee, how can I thank you for being so pithy and erudite? Something the world needs more of :rofl:

[pschoeb]

104. Since your post #40 is blatantly incorrect and ignorant

I'm not sure you have shown any impressive knowledge of Catholicism, to criticize others, especially without actually refuting any of their points.

[reprobate]

121. And NOBODY expects the holy INquisition.

[robcon]

64. Which Jews??? Which liberal-minded Catholics?

This is one of the worst cases of a writer projecting his feelings onto other, unnamed groups. At least he could get a quote from someone who cared, must less "objected" to what language the Catholic Mass was said in.

Just one quote - is that too much to ask of a journalist? One Jew or Jewish group? One "liberal-minded Catholic??

A disgraceful level of journalism.

[BushOut06]

76. They quoted the Anti-Defamation League and the Simon Weisenthal Center

And I guess you also missed this part:

However, Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, the head of the French bishops' conference, warned that the move will create divisions. "There will be resistance from both sides," he told Le Monde.

The liberal lay church group We Are Church said that the move represented a step back from Vatican II and could set an even more conservative direction for the church. It warned of a "new split within many parishes, diocese and finally the entire Roman Catholic Church."

[robcon]

84. That's not in the article linked-to in the topic post.

No mention of anyone objecting except some vague Jewish groups and vague liberal Catholics.

The journalist is a hack, IMO.

[BushOut06]

120. Actually, it is

Where do you think I copied & pasted it from? You have to read down past the photo, the article continues.

[ProudDad]

80. Don't worry about it

One dying cult changing their liturgy is as important as rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[nichomachus]

66. The lurch into irrelevancy

This is just another milestone on the church's road into irrelevancy.

It's a way for the radical right-wing of the church to separate themselves.

The problem is that most Latin masses in the waning days of the Tridentine rite were done poorly. I can't imagine the current versions will be any better. It's a beautiful service when done right, but few people know how to do it. It will just be a bunch of ideologues trying to out-Latin each other.

Screw 'em all.

[Matilda]

75. The Novus Ordo Mass can also be "done poorly".

Some priests are inspiring, some aren't.

There is no question of the Tridentine Mass replacing the Novus Ordo, it would simply be reinstated
at the request of a number of parishioners, and I'm sure as the numbers would be fairly small, it
would probably be one Mass a week. For a while after the Novus Ordo was introduced, it was the rule
in England, where I was living, that one Sunday Mass each week had to be in Latin and I thought that
was an ideal compromise.

I've got used to the Novus Ordo, and I'm happy with it (except for the poor quality of much of the
translation from Latin in the current version), but I'd go along to a Latin Mass occasionally if it
was offered, because it has great beauty, and it also gives more time for reflection during the Mass.
But it won't take over from the NO, which many churchgoers have now grown up with. It just isn't
going to happen.

[ProudDad]

81. You got that right

High mass at St Paul's at Christmas in Boston was great theater. Quit a show with those guys dressed up in their dresses swinging the incense pots, the organ blaring...

Kind of like Opera.

You don't know shit about what is being said, what's going on but the light show is terrific...

[AngryOldDem]

131. You raise a good point

I've been following discussions on the Novus Ordo vs. Latin Rite on other boards, and the common denominator with almost everyone who wants the Latin Rite is that it provides one heck of a show. That seems to be the big attraction.

Sorry, but I want more out of Mass than that. I've gotten more out of a 7:00 a.m. Mass with just the priest, a handful of parishioners, and no music than I have Easter Vigil Masses.

Pardon my cynicism, but I think the Latin Mass brings a whole new meaning to "show and glow Catholicism." I admit I'm curious to see a Tridentine Mass, but again, that's because I hear it's quite a production. But I would not go on a weekly basis, and I would not base my standing as a Catholic (as some do) on my adherence to it.

[pschoeb]

106. Actually Parishes could always say the Novus Ordo in Latin

without getting permission from the Bishop, if they wanted to, so this is actually not about Latin, but about using the Tridentine rite, this ruling also allows the Tridentine to be done in the vernacular.

[melody]

70. Pope Melody I today denounced Pope Benedict XVI as a fascist pretender

I am the only true Pope ... in my house anyway.

He is a fraud.

[eridani]

129. No he isn't. Both of you can be popes.

EVERYBODY should be a pope, and you can do it at the following link.

http://altreligion.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=altreligion&cdn=religion&tm=5&gps=122_10_860_595&f=00&tt=14&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/popecard.html

[melody]

130. He's claiming to be the Pope. I'm claiming to be a Pope. Therein is the difference

Besides, Bob Wilson made everybody a Pope a long time ago.

[ProudDad]

78. When I was a kid

I used to sit in the church for what felt like hours while the priest mumbled a bunch of Latin gibberish to the alter with his back to all of us.

I was totally, completely, bored out of my skull -- KILL ME NOW, I used to say to myself...let me the hell out of here.

Then, one magic night, I told my mother what the nuns had taught us; that because she was a Protestant, she was going to hell.

SHAZAM!!!!

No more latin mass, no more parochial school.

OH HAPPY DAY!!!!


ProudDad
Recovering Catholic
Complete Utter Practicing Non-Theist

[davidthegnome]

82. Wow

I consider myself a former Catholic, I don't really hold with organized religion anymore, but I was raised Catholic. I'm only twenty-three, but I've never seen a Latin mass before, so I really can't say much about this. I mean, I read about it, in some of Father Greeley's books, but thought it was mostly a thing of the past.

Either way, I don't think it's worthy of such great debate. If a Priest wants to speak the mass in Latin, let him, no one will be forced to listen. Well, aside from some unfortunate children. :( I think I read somewhere that it used to be the norm that Catholic students would grow up learning Latin. Not sure how long ago this was.

I wonder if good old Greeley has anything to say about this? He's one of the few that kept me Catholic for a while (not just his books, he's more than a great priest, he's a great human being). I don't really care for the current Pope one way or another, I think he's pretty useless overall. Mostly for pomp and ceremony anyway. It's often said that the Pope has his opinion, and the Catholics have theirs.

That said, I've never been one to care much for pomp and ceremony. I'd rather go to a church where people could be enthusiastic, passionate, speak of their beliefs and of their lives, their spirituality, their philosophies, etc. I'd rather go to a church where, if you disagree with what's being said, or if you have a question about something you're not sure you understand, it's ok to speak up. Or to raise your hand or something.

I consider myself an agnostic, but I am interested in learning, in hearing what people think and believe. I like discussing possibilities and different theologies and philosophies. And I'm going to quit ranting now. :)

[redqueen]

134. Nice rant.

:hi:

I think it's mostly the part about converting the Jews that has people upset... not so much the Latin Mass part. Speaking just for myself I liked hearing it in Latin as a kid.

[LibertyLover]

89. Although I'm no longer Catholic

I remember going to church under the old Latin mass regime. It bored me to tears then. But now, I wouldn't mind hearing one again. It would be interesting. Of course, I'm a medieval re-creationist, so that probably influences my interest. That and the fact that the old Latin mass was an interesting ritual for raising power. I'd like to see one again now that I'm pagan so that I could study the way power was raised and channeled.

[hedgehog]

93. It's interesting that you use the phrase "raising power" in reference to the

Latin Mass. As I've aged, I've noticed how much of our behavior in Church was supposed to mimic European court behavior. (Of course, European monarchs and nobles ran this the other way as well, tying their authority straight to G*d!) Certainly a lot of the pomp and ritual reinforces the authority of the priests. In addition, it allows us to think of G*d as somewhere out there or up there, separate from us when He in fact is so in love with us that he couldn't help being one of us.

As I read the Gospels, I have to ask whether this is what Jesus wants. Look how often he puts down the formal society types. When he appeared to the apostles after his death and Resurrection, he set out a fish fry, for heaven's sake! (John 21)

[AngryOldDem]

103. Face it: The Church is still angry at being minimized in European politics..

Memo to Rome: Get over it.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

[LibertyLover]

105. Well, actually

I was thinking in terms of pagan ritual, the end result of which is usual to raise energy, or power, and direct it to a goal. In the mass, the way I look at it in terms of ritual, the result is to raise power to consecrate the host and the wine and turn it into the body and blood of Christ. However, you raise an interesting point regarding European court behavior. I recently gave a presentation on ritual in the Burgundian court of Philip the Good (c. 1450 give or take a few years). Much of Burgundian court ritual was based on Church ritual - for example the presentation of a bowl for the Duke to wash his hands in was taken from the part of the mass where the priest washes his hands. Another example was the use by the Duke of a baldachine or canopy over his chair, again taken from Church ritual. There was a definate give and take - or perhaps a better way of putting it is 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' - between secular and sacred European ruling classes.

[Massachusetts]

92. Anyone seen Bernie Law?

[AngryOldDem]

97. He's hiding out in the Vatican somewhere, last I heard.

[otohara]

99. Pope Bush

that's who the so-called German Shepard reminds me of.

[FlaGranny]

108. Ah, the pope

wants people to be able to sleep through mass again, like they once did when they could not understand a word of it. How nice of him. :evilgrin:

[Javaman]

113. exactly my same thought.

had an aunt that could recite the mass backwards and forwards in latin, but did she know what it meant? nope, not a word. LOL

excuse me? is that pew being used? I need some sleep.

[Endangered Specie]

114. I'm still confused why *ANY* Catholics are 'angered' at this...

the Pope is INFALLIBLE, right? Anything he says/changes (including bringing back the Old Mass) is totally 100% purely correct.

[JerseygirlCT]

117. Not really. It's quite a bit more complicated than that

And that infallibility only pertains to certain things.

[pschoeb]

119. Papal infallibility is only when he speaks ex cathedra

And this only in regards to doctrines of faith and morals, there are more infallibility rules as well(can't contradict scripture for one), and is not the only infallible source for the church, as doctrines created by Ecumenical Council can be infallible as well. The Popes statement was a "motu proprio" which means "of his own motion", and this one does not cover areas that the Church would consider faith or morals, ergo it isn't even covered by even a possibility of infallibility.

[Princess Turandot]

136. Pope Pius XII, 1950

That was the most recent instance in which a Pope invoked the doctrine of infallibility and the only time in the 20th C that it occured from what I've read.

[reprobate]

122. Will someone please inform this atheist what the hell is a "Three Toothed" (Tridentine) Mass?

[pschoeb]

123. It comes from Tridentinus, which is the adjectival form for the city of Trent

It origin comes from decisions made at the Council of Trent held in 1545-1563. So it doesn't have anything to do with teeth, or a pitchfork or trident mass :) Though the city of Trent was named for it's three hills

[lovuian]

124. the Council ot Trent was about one thing

calling for introduction of a Catholic Catechism, imposition of uniformity in the liturgy of the Roman Rite (the "Tridentine Mass"), clearly defined Biblical canon.

When Rome allowed all languages to say the mass in Vatican II many thought the power of Rome dissolved with it
Like Babylon changing the languages to BABEL took the power away

Benedictine is about power and this is one step to regain the power lost

I see a schism forming of the ultra fundamentalist Opus Dei Catholics with the Liberal ones

the majority is Liberal but are weak

[XemaSab]

125. Converting people is one of the precepts of Christianity

I dunno why the Jews should be shocked and angered at this....

[Voltaire99]

139. Latin mass: security through obfuscation

The new taste for obscurity in ritual is a defensive one: magicians and mystics alike prefer shadows, especially when their wires are showing.

Shaken by sex abuse scandals the church knows many are looking at it in a new and revealing light, alerted to danger and bullshit. Threatened by transparency, Pope Daddy wants to impress the wavering and worried with Olde Time hocus pocus.

Well, Shazam to you, too, Pope Daddy.