'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

[PaulaFarrell]

Source: Independent (UK)

<snip>

That perception will take a severe knock today with the publication in The Nation magazine of a series of in-depth interviews with 50 combat veterans of the Iraq war from across the US. In the interviews, veterans have described acts of violence in which US forces have abused or killed Iraqi men, women and children with impunity.

The report steers clear of widely reported atrocities, such as the massacre in Haditha in 2005, but instead unearths a pattern of human rights abuses. "It's not individual atrocity," Specialist Garett Reppenhagen, a sniper from the 263rd Armour Battalion, said. "It's the fact that the entire war is an atrocity."

<snip>

Journalists and human rights groups have published numerous reports drawing attention to the killing of Iraqi civilians by US forces. The Nation's investigation presents for the first time named military witnesses who back those assertions. Some participated themselves.

Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behaviour born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.

more...



Read more: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2758829.ece

[Palladin]

1. This is the flip side

of "Support Da Troops". If enough patriotic honorable retired US generals (like Gen Odom) speak out against this,
it will knock the fascist props away from the bumper-sticker crowd. K&R

[Dhalgren]

2. K&R...and fuck...

[leftchick]

3. omg... I am so ashamed of this country

over and over and over again. The shame...

<snip>

here were also deaths caused by the reckless behaviour of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. "Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean... your order is that you never stop."

:cry:

[rodeodance]

4. it is more widespread than th few sensationalized stories.

[rfranklin]

5. This is a brutal, illegal invasion and occupation...

The people of Iraq were turned against the U.S. in the first six months when they realized that they were worse off than when Saddam was in power. No food, no water, no electicity, and no government. Why would anyone be surprised?

[SKKY]

6. This is what human nature does in times like these...

...these individuals had no choice, nor chance. I put this squarely on Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush.

[janetle]

23. Yes---I know a Marine now in prison

He was a good kid and a bright kid who played baseball and super soakers with my son. He wanted to serve his country after 9/11. He was sent to Iraq three times. The second time was the battle of Fallujah and his training and the war changed him beyond what his parents could even recognize--a warrior.

The third time in Iraq, he was part of killing and staging the death of an Iraqi civilian they thought was responsible for IED's killing their buddies. I do not know what happens to a 20 year old raised in an upscale American suburb after his friends get blown up right next to him with body parts flying everywhere......

So now he is in prison for 8 years and I blame Bush and his people for the ruin of this young man and for the death of all of the innocent Iraqis.

It is disgusting and to see this happen to someone I knew from the time he was five years old is indescribable.

[janetle]

24. And what is shocking to me....

...is that the stories of the soldiers in the article are not a lot different than my son's friend. So why is he in prison and others are not? Oh yes, I think I know. Bush had to make examples of a couple of these episodes to make the United States look like we fight the good war and the fair war.

[SKKY]

52. Stories like yours break my heart...

...Unfortunately, soldiers and marines who return from Iraq so emotionally scarred that they are no longer able to successfully reintegrate with society as a whole are not included in the statistics of the injured and dead- I think they should be personally. I hate what this administration has done to so many of my fellow soldiers, airman, marines, and sailors. These people are going to suffer for the rest of their lives, and those around them will suffer as well.

[lefador]

61. Because we as a society have de-evolved to the point of no return...

When you have a news channel showing gruesome battle images, and the majority of the people complain... not because of the horrors being shown perpetrated in our name, but because they were shown images that they deemed inappropriate for their precious little minds during the evening broadcast.

I lost all hope for this country, when I was at a bar and they were showing some images from the initial air assault on Iraq and people where cheering with each explosion that appeared on the TeeVee. it was like a video game for them, they were willing to show the sanitized puffs of smoke. They were completely disconnected from the fact that were people being killed in real time by those "puffs" of smoke.

As a society a majority of Americans are saying that they are not against war, they are against being shown what war looks like in reality... show them a sanitized version of carnage and they are A-OK with the status quo.

The saddest thing that I heard was when I heard some of my friends back in Europe who told me that if they had known what America was going to do after 9/11 they wish they could take back all the tears they shed for the fallen people on that day. Ironically after the Madrid bombings, the blood was still not dried up on the metro lines when FOX news starting insulting the Spaniards for changing their pro-American government.

Such sheer de-humanization of a society is not only appalling to me but simply revolting. I thank my lucky stars I got my early start in life in a different country. Having deal with a large number of Americans, I am afraid of the attitudes and things I have seen and heard.

PS. I would never think I would see anyone with a Betis coat of arms as their avatar so far from Spain! :-)

[SKKY]

65. I think that's why Europeans have a much different take on war than we do...

...because they DO show those images that we as Americans don't get to see because our news coverage is, as you refer to it quite astutely, "...a sanitized version of the carnage...". I remember watching 9/11 coverage on Telemundo and Univision where they DID show people jumping from buildings and landing. I don't think we're dehumanized. I just don't think we get the full story from a media that is afraid to show the truth for fear of falling ratings. News in America is THE new reality TV, and it has just as much a base in reality as does "Survivor", or "Big Brother". Do you remember seeing on CNN the body of the Apache pilot being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu in 1994? Something has changed, and I think it has more to do with news media than any "dehumanizing" of America.

I live in Spain, where I'm stationed, and I'm a HUGE Betico!

[lefador]

66. I wouldn't let the average American off the hook so easily...

I have friends all over the world, many of them who have never seen carnage in TV. yet, most of them find the concept of war appalling. I just don't think that the problem is that a big portion of this country is not shown the images, I think that a big chunk of people in this country simply doesn't have regard for human life.

To this day, 4 years after the start of operations... even after thousands (and in some estimates hundreds of thousands) of Iraqi civilians dead, over three thousand US soldiers dead, thousands of literally "broken" US servicemen both physically and mentally, untold billions of dollars wasted, no ONE has paid any sort of responsibility for the fact that we invaded a country on false pretests. It is a war of aggression, and no one in the administration has paid any sort of price, heck even Rumsfeld has his old office still at the pentagon. Heck we have been at war longer than our involvement in WWII, and we have absolutely nothing to show for it... and no one, no one is paying any price.

There is something very rotten, and we can beat around the bushes (put intended) all we want: Maybe it is the media, maybe it is the pictures, maybe it is the trade winds. But it is until we notice that the smell does not come from the neighbors garbage but from our very own arm pits we will not be able to figure out that what we need is to take a shower.

PS. I'd kill to be in Southern Spain right now! Rota I assume :-)

[badgerpup]

77. Don't know whether to laugh, cry or :::headdesk:::

Violent, blow-em-up, shoot-em-up, slasher, chainsaw-machete-katana-bowie knife-straight razor massacre movies are a BIG DEAL in this country. People pay big $$$ to go see this blockbuster films, with bazillions of dollars in gory 'special effects'. :popcorn:


But show REAL carnage? What happened when a REAL car got bombed and REAL people...some of them kids...got blown up and scattered all over the street?
:wow:
Perish the thought! Can't have the Little Children (of any age; 0-90 yrs old) seeing THAT sort of thing...why, it might frighten them and scar them for life!
:hide:
When did we become such a nation of HYPOCRITES ?
:rant:

[ginnyinWI]

49. like what happened in Vietnam

That was another conflict where soldiers came into contact with civilians daily and had the situation of not knowing who the enemy was. If you've ever seen "Winter Soldier" or some of the movies made about Vietnam you know what I mean.

It's not a moral way to wage a war (if there even is such a thing)--war turns people into animals with few standards.

[Broadslidin]

7. When, we amurikins Experience the Hate Filled Revenge Attacks: You Know, So What.

Tis only human nature for Blitzkrieg invasion forces
to belittle the Occupied as sub-human.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. And that lack of respect for human life is very much ingrained in some

groups within America. You know who they are, and they're still being accepted in the military and still getting police jobs.

[closeupready]

10. Many of whom, ironically, refer to themselves as "pro-life".

:eyes: :mad:

[bdamomma]

14. and also refer themselves as being "christian"

this is disgusting, this will not go unnoticed, we will pay for this if not us, it will be our children.

[closeupready]

16. OH, absolutely. No question about that at all.

n/t

[droidamus2]

9. Panic?

I don't know that it is always a panic situation. I overheard a young man that had been over in Iraq and his comment was that he liked it when somebody shot at them because then he could just shoot at anything that moved. Didn't sound like he really cared if who he shot was civilian or insurgent he just wanted to shoot somebody. I know this was probably just some bragging on his part but I thought the attitude was pretty cold.

[closeupready]

11. and also, stuff like this makes disarmament talks THAT MUCH HARDER for us.

:mad:

[Mrs_Commonist]

39. As JFK said:

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

[niceypoo]

12. My friends brother is a mess for this very reason

He wakes up swinging every morning......she can only wake him up by touching his foot with a broomstick from a distance; otherwise she gets hit. He will go back for his third tour in August. He says that when they went out in convoys they would drive 70 mph and stop for nothing. If a little kid or old lady was in the street they simply ran them over. He was a guard at a base. He said that they were under orders to kill anyone who came within x number of yards of the perimeter. They would warn them in english then kill them. He says that having killed so many kids and women and civilians as a driver and a guard has made him nuts. He can't hold a job here and gets in fights constantly. He says that, if he has to go back again, he is worried that he will be permanently pushed over the brink of insanity. "You think I'm crazy now?", he says, "wait til I come back next time." He says it is futile to plead mental incompetence. Nobody is allowed to finish up their duty and get out of the guard. He finished his guard duty over 2 years ago, but they wont let him out. Its like Nazi Germany.....only way out is to be killed or maimed. Its really gut retching to watch her agonize over her brother like this.

[bdamomma]

15. and there will be many more soldiers coming back with deep

psychological problems like that, one little sound or touch will send them off.

[raouldukelives]

57. Not only that

They will be coming back having experienced most of the violence in a city-like enviroment. Could that lead to higher incidents of violence when they return home? I recall my uncle having Vietnam flashbacks which could be pretty scary. If we had lived in a jungle i'd imagine they would have been worse.

[TexasLawyer]

40. wow, what a horrendous story!

I wish it was an isolated one, but it seems not to be so. I am very sorry for your friend's brother and for his family.

[Mark Twain Girl]

13. Awful story. That's what war is like -- hell. Mostly for the poor kid walking down the road. n/t

[Felix Mala]

17. Our nation kindly volunteered the brown peoples 'over there'

to fight on the front lines of this war so that the white people here wouldn't be in danger... It's liberating... They should be grateful! What if we had to fight the War of Terror without them? They'd feel left out.

[19jet54]

18. And so is a dead African...

... but they don't have as much oil, do they? Dufar or Iraq? Gee, that's a tough one!

[bonito]

19. They are using our soldiers like cock fighters

Out-fucking-rageous not only illegal. High crimes against our military family members.

[femrap]

20. Goddess, do I hate War....

If Americans would actually read this, maybe they'd finally see why our country has become so hated and feared. Our country is going to pay dearly.

I just can't stand what is done in our names. And what really gets me is that these hypocrits refer to the US as a 'Christian' country. What a sick, sick joke. The 'people' in this regime must worship satan.

The other day when I read that * asked an injured veteran to remove his eye patch so he could see and touch his injury, I nearly vomited...that is true, unadulterated sadism....wanting to see the damage he had caused.

We must impeach. NOW!

[bdamomma]

21. .......or change that from "Iraqi" to American

'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what.


that is sickening, these people did not do one thing to us, these soldiers are being brainwashed.

[jdadd]

22. Iraq=Vietnam

It's Deja Vu All over again....:mad:

[kineneb]

31. exactly what I thought

when I read the headline...

Santayana was soooo right.

[Sapere aude]

25. Years from now they will say that our troops did not commit atrocities just like the Vietnam war.

[anarch]

26. *heavy sigh*

"To initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

[vincent_vega_lives]

27. ad nauseum

'A dead Somali is just another dead Somali... You know, so what?'

'A dead Gook is just another dead Gook... You know, so what?'

'A dead Chink is just another dead Chink... You know, so what?'

'A dead Jap is just another dead Jap... You know, so what?'

'A dead Kraut is just another dead Kraut... You know, so what?'

'A dead Hun is just another dead Hun... You know, so what?'

'A dead Reb is just another dead Reb... You know, so what?'

'A dead Mexican is just another dead Mexican... You know, so what?'

'A dead Redskin is just another dead Redskin... You know, so what?'

some for the Brits to...

'A dead Paddy is just another dead Paddy... You know, so what?'

'A dead Wog is just another dead Wog... You know, so what?'

[Doctor_J]

28. This invasion/occupation, was nothing more than a campaign video for the GOP

"It's not a war - it's a pageant", according to "Wag the Dog".

Lives of Americans (soldiers and WTC workers) and Iraqis (soldiers and civilians) mean absolutely NOTHING to Rove and his entire cabal, except for the political capital they can get from them. I REALLY wish we had taken more assertive action early on, but with the media being part of the GOP apparatchik, it is very difficult.

History is going to be very tough on the US for this disaster. I just hope the world realizes that it was not all of us, but merely a small very corrupt group. It's unfortunate that we were unable to contain them. Hopefully they will all receive their just rewards at the Hague.

[mwb970]

30. Why are we unable to contain them, though?

I just hope the world realizes that it was not all of us, but merely a small very corrupt group. It's unfortunate that we were unable to contain them.

I agree with what you say here, but it is beyond me why a huge majority of the people in a supposed democracy are completely powerless to restrain a small minority who are violating both the law and the Constitution as they ruin our nation.

In the 90's, this same minority actually impeached a popular, successful president, against the wishes of a substantial majority of Americans.

When did democracy come to embody "minority rule"?

[LibDemAlways]

32. In "Sicko" there are scenes of French people taking it to

the streets - en masse - to get the attention of their government. There's a scene in which an American ex-pat living in France explains that in France the government is afraid of the people, but in the US, the people are afraid of the government.

That's what most needs to change. If everyone who doesn't support this criminal cabal started acting on it, by demanding change, by protesting, by getting in their face, the wienies in Congress would jump to attention. Sadly, Americans are too busy watching the All-star game or obsessing over the latest missing blonde to give a shit.

[Doctor_J]

36. We did take to the streets. The media ignored it, lied about it, and

continued to lead cheers for the carnage. See my other post for their culpability.

[LibDemAlways]

38. Not letting the media off the hook at all. They are

the ones who create the diversions, prop up the cabal, and ignore or marginalize the protestors.

Until many millions more wake up and start showing up on their Congressman's and CNN's doorstep to demand change, we can only expect more of the same.

[lefador]

55. No, you did not take it to the streets...

The left in this country thinks that having a street parade in which every loon under the sun gets to chant for his/her pet cause is "taking it to the streets." Then you guys go home and pat yourselves in the back, job well done! You just made a street festival hoping that some soulless bastard will give two shits about a bunch of jackasses dancing on the streets.

In France, and most Western European countries, when people take it to the streets... they take it to the streets. The left over there still has teeth, and instead of dancing around they demand the attention of the elites in a cohesive manner, and sometimes leading to general strikes. The whole damn country stops, and that is how workers and the middle class lets the upper echelons know that they are aware that there are more of them (by orders of magnitude). Hit them where it hurts: their pocket book. That is why Euros have universal healthcare, responsible labor practices, and sometimes almost too worker-friendly work legislation. Here people will bitch and moan about their awful job conditions, yet they will go right on time to work the very next day... American decided that obedience for a fistful of dollars was more important than education, self worth and social responsibility. I have never seen such apathy in the face of pervasive corruption, unwarranted wars, depletion of national resources, loss of life, trampling of human and personal rights, inequality... such laziness will only be rewarded with disaster.

Here the left asks pretty please to a bunch of assholes who only care about money over anything else, including human life. Trust me, interpretative dance is not going to sway any of these bastards. I always get a chuckle about the monumental waste of time that demonstrations in this country are...

[LibDemAlways]

59. And because it isn't cohesive and it doesn't grind the

country to a halt, the media ignores it and/or marginalizes it - convincing the ignorant masses that the protestors are a bunch of loonies who deserve to be laughed at.

When I joined my husband in France on business 20 years ago, Paris was in the midst of a garbage-collectors strike. CDG Airport and the city streets were wallowing in truly stinking trash. You can bet that got the attention of the powers that be.

You are absolutely right. Only when people, in huge numbers, come together seriously and with common purpose, will the government start to pay attention.

What the American ex-pat in "Sicko" said was the best - and most painfully honest - line in the film. In America, people are afraid of the government. Until that changes, it's pretty hopeless.

[ProudDad]

63. The main problem here

is that the "left" NEVER had power here.

FDR was a two-edged sword.

He saved capitalism by throwing a few crumbs to the working classes but no real power.

What little power the working classes in this country gained in the 30s was taken away right after WW II;

The major take-away was this piece of shit:

The Taft-Hartley Act...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley_Act

In 1947 the HEART was cut out of the left and the labor movement in this country and it's never returned...

On Edit: That was the best line in SiCKO

the woman who said "in France the government fears the People, in the U.S. the people fear the Government"

[Doctor_J]

71. Where are you from?

Your assessment refers to those in America as "this country" but you refer to war protestors/leftists as "you". What demographic do you fall into? Your writing is very lucid - give us some feel for your perspective.

[Doctor_J]

35. As Trent Lott so lucidly observed,

"Talk radio runs the country". He of course was whining about the immigration bill and how the loonies that believe hate radio were killing *'s cheap labor, er, amnesty solution. But in fact all of the mass media and especially hate radio and cable "news" are controlled by ultra-partisan, ultra-right-wing nuts, and that's where people get their "news". And they have controlled the message in this country for more than 15 years. Is it any wonder that the populace that pays attention to those sources ignorant, racist, mean, self-absorbed, and malignant?

I think for a nice snapshot of how twisted this country's psyche is, you need only look and Decision 2000. How is it possible that a mean, petty, stupid, ignorant, drunken, cocaine-addled loser could garner 50,000,000 votes in a presidential election, while running against one of the most qualified candidates in history? Refer to my 1st paragraph.

If Nuremberg II happens, you might see Matthews, Kristol, and Hannity in the defendants' box along with Rove and Cheney.

[MsMagnificent]

41. When they gained control of the media

to catapult their propaganda.

[ClintonTyree]

60. Because they own the government....

they bought and paid for it through huge campaign contributions and fraudulent elections. Corporate America IS the government and vice-versa. The perfect example is our current administration: wholly owned and run by Corporate America. Everything the Bush administration does is done to maximize Corporate profits and to cement their hold on the American power structure. Period.

It's all about the money. The rich own this country and any groundswell of opposition by average Americans will have absolutely no effect whatsoever. Capitalism has mutated into a monster that no one can stop. America, the great capitalistic and Democratic experiment, is completely out of control and no amount of dissent can tame it.

I've come to the conclusion that the situation in this country is hopeless, and terminal. This country cannot survive on it's present course and speed and no one, no matter how well intended and intelligent, can save it. The hooks of Corporate America are dug in too deep to remove them without killing the patient in the process. It's over.

I've already started the process of finding a new "homeland" for myself and immediate family. I figure I have a decade, perhaps two (but who really knows?) left on this planet I refuse to spend that time span in a country that cares so little about it's own citizens, let alone the citizens of the world. Greed has sealed this country's fate. Perhaps the world's as well.

Sorry to sound so fatalistic but I've been banging my head against the system since the 60's not seeing an iota of change for the better. It's just getting worse and worse. Always worse. Fuck it. The few years I have left will be spent NOT being ground up by the Corporate gristmill and removing myself from the Hamster wheel of society. This country is purely fucked.

[lefador]

58. Love the good old American, "hey lets not generalize here...."

... Americans sure love to have the benefit of the doubt been given to them. Too bad they are not so eager to do the same to other people. We invaded and tortured a whole country because they or they may not have had weapons of mass destruction. In fact a significant number of the now Democratic presidential front runners voted to OK military action against people who had not attacked us. So I'm afraid that we as a nation are no longer deserving of any sort of forgiveness...

Most of the world's patience was up after the '04 elections. Yes, that was middle America giving the middle finger to the rest of the world. Problem is that the rest of the country accepted such behavior, because the stability of our corrupt system was more important than the well being of other people. At least some Germans could claim true ignorance of what was going on, we don't have ignorance as an excuse. What does that say about the devolution of this society?

[jackster]

29. I can't read anymore of the article right now

I'm in tears

I'm horrified

I knew that this was happening but to actually read the words is devastating

WHAT HAVE WE BECOME?

People, its time

Impeach or Revolt

No person of any political party that has supported this regime should hold any office at any level ever again

[DutchLiberal]

33. As much as I hate to say it: this is *not* news

This was known all this time the troops are in Iraq. There are numerous occasions where there were reports of American soldiers 'misbehaving'. Children raped, innocent unarmed Iraqi's shot to pieces, sometimes even on videotape, shooting from helicopters at Iraqi citizens... And then you have to remember that those stories are usually the tip of the iceberg. We knew this, we all did.

That's why I get the shivers every time any political figure brags about 'supporting the troops'. Including Democratic politicians, even presidential candidates. They keep repeating this mantra the troops are doing a great job, but it's the policy that's causing the misbehaving. Yes, enlisting criminals and thugs to meet recruiting standards (as was reported in the news last year) doesn't help, obviously, but enough 'regular' troops are committing violations of human rights, too. And we know it. And still, even the most outspoken critics of the war, those in favor of immediate with-drawl, continue to praise the troops, and indeed pretend that Abu Graib was the only thing that went wrong.

I know it's almost political suicide to criticize the troops, but if nobody does it, if nobody is brave enough, America will never get past this scary, astonishing obsession with the military and the blind support for it. And then we will get into other, similar wars in the future.

[txaslftist]

45. This is not a particular thing to us.

Every war is like this. Every single one, since the very first bouts between tribes of Cro-Magnons.

Why people think that we are somehow exempted from this or that Bosnians or Hutus or anyone else who commits atrocities don't share the same humanity we do simply amazes me. All history is against the notion of American exceptionalism on the field of battle.

[DutchLiberal]

47. I did not mean that it's only American soldiers who do it

I was trying to bring up the point that we should stop turning a blind eye. We always pretend it's only 'the other side' who behaves badly, it's 'the other side' that's mean and cruel and violate human rights and torture and shoot innocent people. That's how we paint the Arabs, don't we? But at the same time, we pretend all of *our* boys and girls in the military are good, and brave and heroic and doing nothing wrong. And if they do something wrong, we sweep it under the carpet.

[FredStembottom]

34. With so much "off the table"..... look what has now been tossed onto it.

:cry:

Will these stories have an effect?

Probably no. Our elected Dems weathered the death squad stories just fine back in the 80's. Just have a "hearing" and then...... nothing.

[Hulk]

37. This is NO SURPRISE!! The enemy has been made to appear "sub-human"

It's what we do. This administration has painted the Muslim world as "sub human" and unworthy of existing. We did the same in Vietnam. They are ALL the enemy. Do you honestly think we give a rat's ass about how many sunni's kill shia's?? We are overjoyed that THEY are killing each other along with us killing as many as we can.

I'm starting to believe in Satan.

[Doctor_J]

72. Don't forget the media

with Limpballs and Hannity pumped in via AFN every day, there is a form a brainwashing going on.

[Turn CO Blue]

42. This is what happens after 2-3 tours and traumatic stess symdrome

is in full swing and when the US will recruit and sign up anyone who is breathing without regard to their psych profile.

To be fair, I can't imagine what many of these men and women have been going through on both sides of this conflict. These human rights violations and their being desensitized to death and to the nature of these abuses is the result of being there in the first place. As that specialist said in the article - the whole war is an atrocity.

These troops have had their adrenaline up so long, they have been on full alert for so long that they have itchy trigger fingers. I saw a report the other day that said that even the in Green Zone the troops have to wear their weapons and armor. They never get to relax or rest, they never feel completely safe for even a few hours, and they are always on alert. They have seen too much death and violence, seen their own buddies killed, many of them having had many close calls. So then when any civilian is walking by out of the Green Zone, well, they are jumpy and angry and exhausted and perhaps sometimes vengeful.

[ProudDad]

64. Much earlier than that

This is what happens in "Boot Camp"...

It's built into the system. Can't have a military without hate-filled tools to do the dirty work...

[Turn CO Blue]

67. Whenever those commercials

come on for joining the service, I tell my son, don't you even believe that those positive images on the screen are even 1/1000th of the story. There is much more to it. They deconstruct you during boot camp so that they can re-create you into the machine they need to do the job. And what is the job? Whatever they tell you it is.

I have so many conflicts about this. I often thank service people for their service, and I certainly do not want to blame them for this war, or even for most acts during the war, but sometimes I'm not sure what we're thanking them for. They are taught to dehumanize the "enemy". But this conflicts with my philosophy of humanism. But I'm not naive enough to believe that we dont' still need a military (think N Korea and Iran). I just don't know. It's not black and white. Nothing is.

[ProudDad]

68. I have a HUGE problem

with a society where the "best option" for such a large plurality of the kids in this country is to join the war machine...

I have a HUGE problem with the Pentagon spending so many billions of OUR TAX DOLLARS on shit like those ads along with the egregious video game they give away to "pre-condition" the little toddlers:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/26/AR2005052601505.html


War stinks and doesn't work - war begets more war and never solves anything.

[Turn CO Blue]

69. War is a racket. No doubt

and as my son (22 years) says, we send the poorest (usually brown and black) over to shoot other poor brown people.

[ProudDad]

79. In case you haven't seen it before

WAR IS A RACKET

by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient:

Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm


I suspect you have...

[acmavm]

43. From the article, read the last one. I damn well hope their

fucking consciences would kick in. Too bad they didn't work while they were in someone elses country illegally killing civilians.



'It would always happen. We always got the wrong house...'

"People would make jokes about it, even before we'd go into a raid, like, 'Oh fuck, we're gonna get the wrong house'. Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house."

Sergeant Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas 4th Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour that began in March 2003

"I had to go tell this woman that her husband was actually dead. We gave her money, we gave her, like, 10 crates of water, we gave the kids, I remember, maybe it was soccer balls and toys. We just didn't really know what else to do."

Lieutenant Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia, Marine Corps civil affairs unit. In Ramadi from August 2004 to March 2005

"We were approaching this one house... and we're approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, cause it's doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it... So I see this dog - I'm a huge animal lover... this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he's running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, what the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I'm at a loss for words."

Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004

"I'll tell you the point where I really turned... this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg... An IED went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me... like asking me why. You know, 'Why do I have a bullet in my leg?'... I was just like, 'This is, this is it. This is ridiculous'."

Specialist Michael Harmon, 24, of Brooklyn, 167th Armour Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. In Al-Rashidiya on 13-month tour beginning in April 2003

"I open a bag and I'm trying to get bandages out and the guys in the guard tower are yelling at me, 'Get that fuck haji out of here,'... our doctor rolls up in an ambulance and from 30 to 40 meters away looks out and says, shakes his head and says, 'You know, he looks fine, he's gonna be all right,' and walks back... kind of like, 'Get your ass over here and drive me back up to the clinic'. So I'm standing there, and the whole time both this doctor and the guards are yelling at me, you know, to get rid of this guy."

Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004

'Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find...'

"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."

Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004

"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."

Lieutenant Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington DC, 1st Armoured Division. Eight-month tour of Baghdad beginning Sept 2003

"I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'... in... meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place,


takes root, then."

[redqueen]

44. Can we now start discussing the end of war?

Not just this war... all of it.

It's unnecessary. More of us need to stand up to the lies... defend the truth. War is not necessary.

[whistle]

46. The war has propagated a total erosion of any moral conscience

...as far as execution of military objectives and makes no distinction between enemy combatants and innocent civilians. The leadership or lack of leadership has brought about the complete breakdown of all rules of engagement. It is further impossible to sort out the military atrocities from the private contract armies atrocities, but rest assured our troops will be put in the position to take the fall for something which is not their fault. The commanders and/or private contract military will walk away scott free.

[janetle]

48. You are dead right!!!

Absolutely atrocious.

[whistle]

50. I wish I was dead wrong! Our troops will take the blame for the atrocities

....ordered by their superiors and also committed by non-military fighting contractors who are NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE! That just burns me up. In fact I would not at all be surprised is military contractors are embedded among our own troops committing these violations and then disappearing after the fact leaving our people to take the hit. This is a shadow military not even out in the open, completely under secret orders. It is a travesty and congress must move forward now to stop this insanity.

[mdmc]

51. At least President H.R. Clinton will support the troops

She will show us how to win this war!

[CoffeeCat]

53. Any wonder PTSD is chronic????

When you're forced to view women and children as objects--you have to crush
your humanity under a wall of denial. Then you kill, torture, destroy
and commit atrocities. However, the memories of those atrocities come
back for you, when you're back home and the denial begins to lift.

So nice of our pResident to convince the world that he cares about the
troops soooo much. He loves them, doncha know? He sends them into this
hell hole for no reason and turns them into robotic killing machines--who
will experience a lifetime of pain, trauma and suffering because they
were simply following orders.

Our nation will feel the effects of what happened to these soldiers for
generations. The damage will be catastrophic

[Wapsie B]

54. With this outlook on the world,

the neocons have insured that terrorism against this country will continue for generations to come. I dare say the slaughter of Iraqis in this senseless war has only worsened the problem.

[Divine Discontent]

56. I'm sending my thoughts on this to over 500 email addresses

I get SICK reading this news story, so I wrote this ---



It's not a popular belief at the start of a war to say your country is doing something immoral and anti-Christian. As time has went on, the atrocities have increased, as has the theft of taxpayer billions, torture, victimization of children, murders, and destruction. This invasion is absolutely without question, an assault on Christian civility. JESUS said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" - we are NOT the peacemakers. We are the ones with the "swords" that need turned into "plowshares".

There is a difference in the righteousness of going after CIA funded Osama Bin Laden, for the murders of those 3000 people on 9/11 and any terrorist network around the world - compared to an invasion of a country based upon false information the administration tricked the world with to make billions off a giant invasion while getting the bad guy in charge because as President Bush said, "After all, He did try to kill my Dad".

The man who gave that information to the United Nations (Colin Powell) is ashamed now that he did it, for he knows more than a half million people have died in Iraq in connection with the invasion. He should be ashamed as it took heavily from the search for Bin Laden, which looks all too suspicious considering that Bandar "Bush" Bin Laden, after eating a gourmet meal with the President, went with him to the Truman Balcony within the White House and smoked a cigar two days after 9/11. But, at least Colin gets it now, not sure why he let them lead him astray for so long.

There are about half the supporters of this war as there was a year ago. This is not to say that we are not PROUD of the service of a majority of the troops - but even those troops are so overspent from exhaustive tours of duty that they are prone to cracking. Thankfully, people are waking up to the hundreds of billions of dollars wasted on a fruitless effort to try and democratize a rogue country - as if that's our responsibility. Even if worked in 5 more years, what is that, one down? 50 to go? And how many troops are we willing to let get put six feet under for it?



WHAT IF?

You heard the following from a Chinese soldier...

"A dead American is just another dead American... You know? So what."

And this came about because we were invaded by China for their belief, without actual evidence, that we were making biological weapons to harm others with?


And China invaded us without provocation, and began bombings that routinely missed their targets that ended up in a nearby apartment building, ripping the limbs from a 2 year old that loved Winnie the Pooh, and killing an elderly man with glass shards from the exploding window, as he was writing his grandson.

You were woken up in the middle of the night by a bunch of men speaking Chinese, yelling at you, shoving your family around, destroying your belongings looking for contraband and anti-Chinese materials - when you had none - nor gave any impression that you did. And during that raid, your daughter caught the eye of one of the soldiers and he came back the next day for her.

What if you couldn't trust the Chinese soldiers, who one day, would be very caring and help you get water, but then the next day you got a different one who smacked you across the head with their rifle for nothing whatsoever? And that's after he had just ran over a 10-year old boy in the road with his humvee, and didn't slow down, so you consider yourself 'lucky'.

You were afraid that these Chinese "liberators" were never going to leave your country, as it has been years they've been here, and they keep sending more and more of them, and they keep getting more cruel as the years go on til you hear from a friend who understands Chinese that they say we're all "fat, ugly & lazy", and we're "as ignorant as dogs and deserve what they get"?

Just imagine if that was US? What would you think? How horrified would YOU be? Where is the CHRISTIAN compassion in our invasion - it is not there because there is no righteousness in our invasion. I have many friends that support the troops as I do, but who also consider the Iraqis as being undeserving of our sacrifice and that we should just nuke the region.

I pray you write or call your congressman, and friends and encourage them to focus on protecting our loose borders, bringing the majority of our troops back home, giving them free counseling for what they've been through, and redirect efforts into finding Osama Bin Laden. For I do not find it at all OK that President Bush said about him, "I don't think about him." That's such a copout when he says that we can't give up in Iraq, when that has nothing to do with 9/11, but, the guy that they told us was behind 9/11 is not something that needs to be a high priority? Sorry, that doesn't jive with me. It shouldn't with you.

Thank You GOD, through our Savior JESUS CHRIST, that you, Father in Heaven, did not give up on us and just destroy the world You created because of our human nature of sin.

"War is not the answer - for only LOVE can conquer hate - Hey, What's Going On?" - Marvin Gaye

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<--- top '08 items & antib*sh stickers!

~~~ Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8 ~~~

[ProudDad]

62. Hey, Folks, this is S.O.P.

Standard Operating Procedure in the military.

You tear down some pimply faced teenager's miniscule personality, rebuild him/her into a testosterone-filled, order-taking, killing machine, give him high powered penis substitutes...

and expect them to act rationally and humanely???


This is the LOGICAL end product of a military police state...

[cassiepriam]

70. There will be many more stories like this nt

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dailykoff]

74. Depopulation has been the plan all along.

Some would call it genocide, others a holocaust. Any way you slice it it's an international crime of gigantic proportions with disastrous consequences we will never be free of.

Thank you Haliburton, Exxon-Mobile, and your pals in the White House.

[classysassy]

75. "there is nothing new under the sun"

Go out to your local res,and see what I mean.

[Danger Mouse]

76. So many emotions go through my head, reading this...

the primary one is :puke:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

78. Perhaps a dead Iraqi equals 10 "terrahists" that never would

have been. I wonder if * ever ponders such issues with his beautiful mind.

[Strelnikov_]

80. ..

[TankLV]

81. "Support the troops" - yeah, OK, right, gotcha...

I will only support the HONERABLE ones - not the WAR CRIMINALS...

MY support is CONDITIONAL and very QUALIFIED...