Singer shot dead on stage (By sniper trained husband from outside?)

[RamboLiberal]

Source: CNN

A woman was shot and killed early Saturday while she sang with a band at a restaurant and bar, police said. They were looking for her estranged husband, a National Guardsman who they said had sniper training.

Robin Munis was shot in the head with one gunshot that came from outside the Old Chicago restaurant where she had been performing just after midnight, Cheyenne police Capt. Jeff Schulz said. No one else in the restaurant was hurt.

Witnesses saw her husband, David Munis, in the area, but no one has reported seeing the shot fired, Schulz said. No weapon was found, but Schulz said investigators believe a rifle was used.

The couple had recently separated, and Robin Munis, 40, of Cheyenne, had complained about receiving harassing calls from her husband as recently as Friday, Schulz said.

"We are working solely on him being the suspect," Schulz said at a news conference. He described David Munis as "very dangerous."



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/14/singer.shot.ap/index.html

---

I posted this in LBN because of the sniper and military aspect. You have to wonder if he has seen service in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. That is horrifying!

That poor woman...

OK....flame fest time!

There are too many guns out there in our society.......

I hope they catch him, and soon...:scared:

[David__77]

5. There are too many lunatics.

There are also too many wars of aggression that serve as breeding grounds for mental illness, specifically sociopathic personality disorders.

[stressfulreality]

46. yeah... then there's the beast of love. n/t

[Cha]

54. And jealousy and

hate..not good when your estranged one has had "sniper training".

[Pavulon]

11. A mild counter point

In western europe Firearms are available and regulated. The swiss have access to modern military weapons in their homes. The sig 55x.


Site behind the water heater in many homes. However their use is very rare. It happens but is rare.

The majority of violent crime in the us i poverty and drug driven. Some is domestic but the majority is socially correctable.

Access to weapons does not correlate to their illegal use.

This person choose to commit murder. Once a person decides to do that they can pretty much carry that out through a variety of means.

[billbuckhead]

12. This Swiss had 7 times the gun homicides as England and Wales

"According to Swiss police, there were 204 homicides in Switzerland in 2005, including 48 that involved guns. That is about the same number of gun-related killings as took place last year in England and Wales, which have strict gun control and a population seven times the size of Switzerland's.

According to a 25-nation survey by the International Action Network on Small Arms, a British-based organization against gun violence, Switzerland's total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000 citizens, which was second only to the U.S. rate of 9.42 per 100,000. Switzerland's rate of gun deaths was more than double that of 18 of the countries surveyed, including neighbors Germany and Italy."
----------snip-----------
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042900133_2.html>

[Pavulon]

13. 48 people out of 6 .8 mil.(your numbers are misleading)

the VAST majority of murders appear to be NON GUN. Probably stabbings. Like the murders in england.

My point, hundreds of thousands have access to powerful military weapons and training, but do not kill each other. No correlation.

Very interesting. In Japan where weapons are BANNED you still have a very high rate. Canada stands out as well.


Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42
Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47
Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42
Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07
United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06
Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05

[tabasco]

20. The US murder rate is 10 times higher than Japan's.

WTF are you talking about?

Murders per 100,000.
1. Russia Federation 18.07
2. United States 6.32
3. Malaysia 2.73
Taiwan 1.17
Spain 1.08
Japan 0.58

[Pavulon]

57. Swiss numbers

reflect a country where lots of people have access to real assault rifles, not scary looking replicas. Their murder rate is less than that of canada or japan.

I wonder if there is socio economic reason behind gun violence.

[Crayson]

62. Tons of guns, but none in the street

Generally there is about 1 high profile crime every two years, which involves the army assoult rifle which every active soldier and many former soldiers keep at home.

Also keep in mind, that in Switzerland EVERY young man has to go to the army, unless you have an illness or disability. Not just youngsters who want to go, but every single one! And every single one gets an assault rifle.
Officers or medics get a sidearm.

I think the number of crimes which involves army weapons is quite low know how many guns are around.

BUT: Carrying them around in public is strictly forbidden, except soldiers on their way home from service and at home the gun must be kept separately from the ammunition and small arms locked away.

[billbuckhead]

29. Killing each other enough it's a national debate and laws are being changed

Sheesh, the gun lobby and it's minons makes a huge deal out of the less than 200 justifible homicides but ignore the over 100,000 shooting victims every year in the USA.

[benEzra]

33. Just like you ignore the 100,000 alcohol deaths each year...

selective outrage is just SO convenient...

annual rifle homicides: <500
annual alcohol deaths: >100,000

Does that make you a "minion of the alcohol lobby," or is your opposition to alcohol prohibition based on, you know, rational thought and the concept of individual choice?

[superconnected]

50. Heart disease kills ppl over 60, now compare it to drownings.

Oh yeah, it's unrelated. But hey, since drownings are so low, why provide life guards?

I realize gun deaths don't bug you, but comparing them to also stoppable alchol deaths, and going after people for not stopping them first, doesn't get you off the hook for actually supporting gun deaths. Which you are doing in your defense of gun murders by comparing it to alcholol death incidents. (how many people do use alchohol to kill people anyway.) It's neither here nor there and certianly not an excuse not to stop gun deaths.

Sometimes peds kill children, but more people are killed by drunk drivers than peds? Shall we stop going after peds since drunks are more dangerous... it's related. - And always a weak argument.

[benEzra]

61. No, they do bother me; I think you missed my point.

Just because I do not support mindless gun prohibition (such as rifle bans, when rifles aren't even part of the problem) does not mean I am unconcerned about criminal violence. That was the point of the alcohol comparison; both billbuckhead and I oppose alcohol prohibition--and for good reason--but opposing alcohol bans does NOT mean that we don't care about alcohol-related deaths, merely that we don't see alcohol-related deaths as an excuse or justification to outlaw the responsible ownership and use of alcohol.

On the gun issue, I don't think placing onerous restrictions on the people who aren't the problem is going to do anything about the forces that create our violence problem, i.e. our insanely militaristic and prohibitionist approach to the drug issue, inner-city blight, lack of education and economic opportunity, and poor socialization of adolescents into adult roles.

[krispos42]

39. And the 1.2 million defensive gun uses a year?

And why oh why do you keep sprouting off about the UK's gun laws? Their homicide rate is at an all-time high and you know it because I've proved it to you, right there in the Home Office report!

They banned 'deadly assault weapons' in 1989 and ALL handguns in 1998. When did their homicide rate peak? 2002? 2003?

[benEzra]

18. Except that sniper rifles are LEGAL in the UK...

one of the few classes of guns that is still relatively easy for Brits to obtain.


That's a British shooter. The rifle is a military-style bolt-action in 7mm WSM...

[Greenboy]

22. These people are downright scarey not even having to be close to kill.

[benEzra]

28. A typical deer rifle has a maximum range of about 3 miles, IIRC,

though the effective range (i.e. range at which you could realistically hit something) is far less. The effective range of a .308 or .30-06 deer rifle in the hands of the average hunter is probably 400 to 600 yards, even without specialized training. In the hands of a trained sniper...

...well, judge from the photo I posted of the British shooter upthread.

[krispos42]

38. I think they run a little less than two miles...

That is the absolute ballistic maximum. Probably 30 or more degrees of elevation involed to get that.

The maximum effective range of a rifle is the lesser of:

a) the range at which the bullet transitions to subsonic speeds, the shock of which disrupts the trajectory of the bullet, or

b) the range at which the inheirent accuracy of the ammunition/rifle combination is no longer able to hit an 8-inch circle, the size of human vital organs in the chest.

These are, of course, independent of the shooter him/herself, which is even lower than those numbers. If you can only hit an 8" circle at less than 200 yards, then that is your personal effective range, pretty much regardless of hardware or bullet velocity.

Most off-the-shelf deer rifles can shoot accurately enough from a fixed rest to be lethal to about 400 yards.

Cartridges like the .308 and .30-'06 go subsonic in the 800-yard range, IIRC. About a half-mile or so.

[benEzra]

40. I was thinking of a .30-06 bolt rifle...

I was thinking of a .30-06 bolt rifle in the post above, but you are correct that it varies greatly depending on the caliber, rifle, and load. Still, the .30-06 is a Way Out Yonder cartridge.

I ran the ballistics of a .30-06 firing a 180-grain boattail, just to see.

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/maxdist/maxdist.html

JBM Maximum Distance Output
Input Data
Manufacturer: Barnes
Description: 0.308 dia. 180 gr. X Boattail
Muzzle Velocity: 2700.0 ft/s
Temperature: 75.00 °F
Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No
Corrected Pressure: Yes

Calculated Parameters
Atmospheric Density: 0.07419 lbs/ft³
Speed of Sound: 1133.6 ft/s
Initial Angle: 35.0 deg
Terminal Angle: 62.8 deg
Terminal Range: 5813.3 yds
Terminal Velocity: 513.7 ft/s
Terminal Time: 34.165 s
Terminal Energy: 105.4 ft•lbs

16 Jul 2007 04:42:20, JBM <http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm>

5813 yards is 3.3 miles. The bullet is only going 513 fps when it gets there, but still, the moral of the story is, don't shoot high-powered hunting rifles at the sky. Even with a flat-base 180-grain bullet will fly 3.1 miles at 35 degrees elevation.

A 150-grain flat base at the same initial velocity (2820 ft/sec), a typical load for a .308 Winchester, has a max range of 2.6 miles (4623 yards).

The maximum effective range of a rifle is the lesser of:

a) the range at which the bullet transitions to subsonic speeds, the shock of which disrupts the trajectory of the bullet, or

b) the range at which the inheirent accuracy of the ammunition/rifle combination is no longer able to hit an 8-inch circle, the size of human vital organs in the chest.

These are, of course, independent of the shooter him/herself, which is even lower than those numbers. If you can only hit an 8" circle at less than 200 yards, then that is your personal effective range, pretty much regardless of hardware or bullet velocity.

Most off-the-shelf deer rifles can shoot accurately enough from a fixed rest to be lethal to about 400 yards.

Cartridges like the .308 and .30-'06 go subsonic in the 800-yard range, IIRC. About a half-mile or so.

Depends on the load and the rifle, methinks. A 180-grain .30-06 boattail is still going over 1860 fps at 500 yards, so it'll stay supersonic a long ways past that. A .308 with light-for-caliber bullets would go subsonic much shorter, of course.

But with a .30-06, if you widen the circle of error to 16" instead of 8" (closer to the size of a person), I think a typical .30-06 bolt rifle would be effective well past 400 yards. 16" is roughly 2 MOA at 800 yards, so I would think 500-700 is reasonable for a .30-06 shooting from a rest on a non-windy day, assuming the shooter could read a ballistics chart.

[krispos42]

41. 34 seconds of flight time... oy vey

moving at a 350mph... well, that probably would penetrate a person. Or at least leave a hell of a welt!

Most of the standard, off-the-shelf hunting rifles I've read about test with between 1.25 and 2.5 MOA. The military and the FBI use an 8" standard because that is about how big the heart and lungs in the chest are, not the chest itself.

This chart will help...



Given, say, a bolt-action deer rifle in .30-'06 with a particular type of ammo that can consistantly hold 1.75 MOA, you're getting a usable range of 460 yards, which is over a quarter of a mile. If you luck out and find a rifle/ammo combination that gives you 1.0 MOA, then you're good for 800 yards. If you get a lemon that likes to shoot 3.0 MOA, then 265 yards is your effective range. From what I've seen in the magazines, ammunition can affect accuracy with about a ± 0.5 MOA.

I ran some numbers through the Hornady website... a .30-'06 with a Ballistic Silvertip bullet, 180 grains, is very slick. At 1,000 yards it is still supersonic at 1,300 ft/s.

Input Variables Firearm type Long Sight Height 1.5
Bullet Weight (grains) 180 Ballistic Coefficient .506
Muzzle Velocity (fps) 2750 Temperature 59
Barometric Pressure (hg) 29.53 Relative Humidity 78%
Zero Range (yards) 100 Wind Speed (mph) 0



Ballistics Table in Yards Test 1 180 gr., .506 B.C. www.hornady.com

Range (yards) Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
Velocity (fps) 2750 2573 2402 2238 2080 1929 1784 1648 1521 1405 1300
Energy (ft.-lb.) 3022 2645 2305 2001 1729 1486 1273 1086 925 789 675
Trajectory (100 yd. zero) -1.5 0.0 -3.7 -13.5 -30.2 -55.0 -89.1 -134.2 -192.2 -265.2 -356.0
Come Up in MOA -1.5 0.0 1.8 4.3 7.2 10.5 14.2 18.3 22.9 28.1 34.0

Change that to a 150-grain softpoint with inferior brick-like aerodynamics, and you get subsonic at about 700 yards.

Input Variables Firearm type Long Sight Height 1.5
Bullet Weight (grains) 150 Ballistic Coefficient .270
Muzzle Velocity (fps) 2920 Temperature 59
Barometric Pressure (hg) 29.53 Relative Humidity 78%
Zero Range (yards) 100 Wind Speed (mph) 0



Ballistics Table in Yards Test 2 150 gr., .270 B.C. www.hornady.com

Range (yards) Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
Velocity (fps) 2920 2581 2265 1973 1705 1467 1269 1120 1019 948 892
Energy (ft.-lb.) 2840 2218 1709 1296 968 717 536 418 346 299 265
Trajectory (100 yd. zero) -1.5 0.0 -3.7 -14.3 -33.8 -65.5 -113.5 -183.3 -280.3 -408.3 -570.1
Come Up in MOA -1.5 0.0 1.8 4.5 8.1 12.5 18.1 25.0 33.5 43.3 54.4

That trajectory goes from a 'frozen rope' to 'rainbow warrior', too! :-)

[Pavulon]

60. Most people can not hit

a consistant torso sized target beyond 400m. A trained person with a 12,000 rifle, a seasoned spotter, and great conditions may be able to hit a target at beyond 1000 yds. maybe.

[Xithras]

48. My dad has hunted his whole life, and is good up to 1000 yards.

He's never been in the military. I'm probably good up to about 800 on a still day. No military training here either.

It really just depends on how often you shoot.

[Zynx]

66. Average hunter? More like less than 300 yards.

There's a certain discipline involved in shooting, and most people never really learn it, because most people don't shoot at serious ranges, either due to lack of talent, poor gun/scope, or just lack of interest.

Hell, most people sight in their rifles at 100 yards.

Due to bullet drop, the effective range of most of these bullets is 500 yards, after which drop becomes severe (and already somewhat is at that point). It's just in most cases, human factors limit range far more than the technology.

To shoot accurately beyond 500 yards, you need a very well made rifle, a very well made scope, percision ammunition that does not vary round-to-round and a lot of experience compensating for environmental factors. In other words, you need serious training as well as a ton of natural skill.

[ProudDad]

49. Now you did it!!!

Peggy, now you did it.

The pro-gun wackjobs will be crawling out from under the rocks in the gungeon to make mincemeat of your un-constitutional suggestion...

Be afraid, be very afraid.

And, of course, they will say nothing about domestic violence, the insanity of "military training and brainwashing" or the truth that gun violence is worse here than anywhere else but the wild-east, Russia, or anything else relevant to this article...

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[EFerrari]

2. How many people saw this coming and did nothing?

:(

[Phrogman]

3. There will be an avalanche of these type incidents in the years to come...

The blowback from sending those young people over there.

[Drum]

6. I hate to say it,

But I sooo fear you are right. I think that the kind of muddy mission there is in Iraq (See Also "ordered to crank up the violence level") is gonna result in more of this...lotta people either tuning their sadism or experiencing lots of emotional/mental damage from this damned mess.

:(

[saigon68]

17. Only look to Tim McVeigh

Decorated Sgt and Veteran of desert storm.

[zanne]

63. I feel alot less safe when there are guns around.

Gun-toters, you don't realize that, although carrying a gun might make you feel safer, it makes people like me feel alot less safe. Everybody gets angry and there are times when ordinary people who wouldn't ordinarily get violent, just snap and use their weapon in anger, not self defense. It's scary as hell but that doesn't seem to matter to you.

[EFerrari]

8. I agree. And the VA is in no way ready for it.

[la la]

14. the military 'prepares' these youngsters

to kill ---but when they return- and hopefully they do---who 'removes' this training from their brains and bodies?

[Fierce]

15. Nah.

Sadly, men killing women who have decided to leave them is nothing new.

[Greenboy]

24. Lots probably. We had a lunatic in Nevada county, CA that was on heavy duty medications for

..his paraniod psychotic condition and he was still allowed to keep his arsenal at his pad.

His brother was a policeman in a nearby city who knew all about the guns and his brothers condition and still did nothing.

The gunman killed two county workers at the same mental health clinic he got his meds at and a manager at Denney's resturant.

[EFerrari]

32. Welcome to DU, Greenboy. These are preventable tragedies.

I hope we can do better than this.

[Kingshakabobo]

4. She should have been more careful who she associated with.

/Bill O'Lielly mode.

[billbuckhead]

7. But rifles just aren't used in murders according the black rifle crowd

Men killing women with guns in America seems acccepted.

[Pavulon]

9. Very Rare..

If you get shot odds are that it will be a person who looks like you, someone you know, and you will be shot with a pistol.

Don't need a black rifle to do that. If he was a trained "sniper" he would have chosen a bolt action rifle. Like EVERY hunting rifle in use in the US.



Of course it takes a skill to do this. Not so much to shoot someone with a pistol at close range.

[benEzra]

19. Rifles account for just under 3% of homicides.

Which is statistically very rarely, just not never.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html">Murder, by State and Type of Weapon (FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2005, Table 20]

[Greenboy]

21. We need routine mental health checkups for all gun owners, after the VA Tech shootings..

..its obvious that way too many nuts can buy guns as easily as buying a car.

[benEzra]

23. The VA Tech shooter had one, and IIRC was legally barred from buying a gun

but due to mental-health-record privacy issues, Virginia never reported that fact to the FBI. That loophole has since been closed.

Under Federal law, anyone adjudicated mentally incompetent is prohibited from touching a gun or a single round of ammunition, never mind buying one. Up till now, not all states reported that data to NICS, though.

FWIW, I had to pass a mental health records check in order to obtain a carry permit, but in the current political climate---with so many people trying to disallow ownership of various guns by mentally competent adults with clean records, like my wife and I---I don't think I'd be comfortable with stretching that to include all purchases. There is just too much room for abuse at the moment. (Ever been depressed? Ever sought marriage counseling? No rights for you, peon...)

Don't forget that Dunblane (UK) occurred under the most stringent regulation possible short of a complete ban, including mental health examination (and true to form, the gun controllers used the opportunity to outlaw all handguns and all self-loading rifles, regardless).

[Greenboy]

25. Gun controllers? You mean that people dont have a right to be safe from gun-crimes?

As far as rights go, no one has a "right" to own a gun if they are a danger to themselves or others, due to mental health issues.

[benEzra]

27. People don't have the right to have MY door kicked in

and my guns confiscated, if that's what you mean--even though some of my rifles have (gasp!) protruding handgrips, and my wife's pistol holds (OMG!) 15 rounds. We are a danger to no one.

If someone has been adjudicated a danger to himself or others (as Cho was), I have no problem with barring him/her from gun ownership. In the current political climate, however, I am wary of writing a blank check to those seeking to curtail lawful and responsible ownership, to whom criminal gun violence is merely an excuse.

If the gun-control lobby were really about gun misuse, rather than circumscribing responsible ownership, they wouldn't be fighting so hard to outlaw the most popular civilian rifles in America, when rifles of any type are almost never misused in this country. The case mentioned in the OP is a multiple-sigma event, not a trend.

[billbuckhead]

30. It seems this is some fantasy the black rifle crowd dreams about.

I guess it sells a lot of fake assault rifles. Yes, the ultimate battle between the 2nd amendment and those evil government guys and their mud people allies. It's been a staple at gun shows from David Koresh to Randy Weaver to the Turner Diaries to Ted Nugent. Sad for these people wasting their lives on the gun culture but it's inexcusable for a supposedly advanced nation to have this bloody stain of the worst murder rate by multiples vs similar nations.

[benEzra]

31. No, actually I was objecting to YOUR fantasy...

that of having the most popular lawfully owned guns in America, banned and confiscated.

No, we'll keep our guns, and live out our lives in peace and goodwill, thanks. You just keep on dreaming; it doesn't bother me any.

[Alexander]

58. People like you lose elections for the Democratic Party.

By treating responsible, law-abiding gun owners like they are all mass murderers.

[Pavulon]

59. Why is an armed society like switzerland

turning a murder rate less than canada or japan? They have real assault rifles, not simple single shot a trigger pull weapons.

Why do they have a tiny murder rate?

[Zynx]

68. What does "black rifle" have to do with this? Snipers don't use those things

Your sniper rifle is, with very rare exceptions, a scoped bolt-action in something between 7mm and .338, i.e. hunting rifles.

Hunting rifles are more lethal per-shot than any "assault" gun out there, it's not particularly close either. People survived being shot by the "DC Sniper" using a military-style .223 carbine. If those shots had been .30-06 at that range, there would have been no survivors.

Snipers - and hunters - aren't interested in rate of fire, big magazines, or other scary looking attachments. They want hard hitting, accurate, long range bullets. Bullets that are effective at 500 yards will generally destroy targets at 100-200 yards, let alone closer. That's just physics.

-

Hell, you could call the .30-06 a scary "armor piercing", "cop killing" gun, because it will just flat out ignore Kevlar vests even with ballistic plates, as well as anything in a police car other than the engine, and is highly likely to kill someone in a single hit.

Sounds scary, right?

[Speaker]

36. If we could ban only one of those two things from them...

..its obvious that way too many nuts can buy guns as easily as buying a car.

it would be best to ban the car, it is much more dangerous.

[ProudDad]

51. As long as they're handguns

held by "them".... :sarcasm:

[Zynx]

67. Bolt action scoped rifles? Just about never.

They're only good for something like this. Way too big to conceal, difficult to use at close range at all, requires a fair amount of costly practice to be effective at range.

They're extremely lethal per-shot, the .308 and above are pretty much not survivable if they hit you in the torso (let alone the head), but no one uses them because of how awkward they are in a realistic criminal setting.

[Nevernose]

34. Very true

/no sarcasm intended, none at all.

Absolutely EVERYONE needs to look at the people whom they associate with very closely. Responsibility aside, it's the smart thing to do.

I'm not saying it's her fault, not at all, I'm just saying that people in general should be careful and mindful. A lot of people after the fact, debating the nuances of their relationship, doesn't make someone less dead than they used to be.

[UpInArms]

10. Murders and suicides by military personnel might be part of the Iraq war toll.

http://snipurl.com/1ob2o

When young Marine Renee DiLorenzo of Whatcom County was shot and killed last month, she became an uncounted statistic of war. Same for Kim Denni, killed last year in a place appropriately called Battle Ground. They are among 10 Western Washingtonians who've died in military-related conflicts since the 2003 invasion of Iraq—four in just a two-week period last month.

None of the casualties, however, occurred in Iraq. Like the others before them, the four all died on the home front: DiLorenzo, 18, who'd just signed up for the U.S. Marines, was killed July 28 by boyfriend Saxxon Rech, 20. Rech, who was mysteriously discharged early from the Marines in February, then turned the shotgun on himself. Army Spc. Leslie Frederick Jr., 23, a decorated Fort Lewis soldier who served in Iraq, committed suicide July 26 in Tacoma. And Army Spc. Brandon Bare, 19, also an Iraq vet, stabbed to death his wife, Nabila, 18, at Fort Lewis, military prosecutors allege.

The case of Nabila Bare is at least the third in the past two years involving a local soldier who killed a lover after returning from Iraq; the DiLorenzo/Rech deaths may also qualify. Altogether since 2003, there have been seven homicides and three suicides on Western Washington soil involving active troops or veterans of Iraq, based on an accounting of medical examiner, military, and news reports. Fives wives, a girlfriend, and one child have been slain; four other children have lost one or both parents to death or imprisonment. Three servicemen have committed suicide—two of them after killing their wife or girlfriend. Seven of the deaths are linked to soldiers from Fort Lewis. Four soldiers have been sent to prison, and one awaits trial.

No one can say if the killings can be directly connected to the psychological effects of war. But most involve a risk factor distinctive to the military—armed men trained to kill—and some killers carry the invisible scars of war. Bare, for example, was being treated for a brain injury from an Iraq roadside bomb. Army Reserve Sgt. Matthew Denni, who killed his wife, Kimberly, in Battle Ground, Clark County, apparently suffered from the post-traumatic stress of Iraq combat, convincing a jury to convict him of second-degree rather than first-degree murder. Two weeks ago, Sgt. 1st Class James Pitts was imprisoned for drowning his wife in the bathtub of their Lakewood, Pierce County, home just weeks after returning from Iraq. "I wish I was dead," he told a judge.

Statistics on home-front casualties tend to be anecdotal. Neither the Pentagon nor the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) keeps figures on military-involved stateside homicides or suicides. "It's almost impossible to track," says Steve Robinson, head of the National Gulf War Resource Center in Maryland. "I tracked it last year and found as many as 35 suicides , but I am sure it's higher now." Another group, the National Gulf War Service Center, estimates as many as 90 soldiers and vets committed suicide while serving in Iraq or Afghanistan or after returning home—including several at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C.

...more...

how many more will die because of dimson's folly?

(edited to fix link)

[AnneD]

16. My uncle was a sniper during WWII and the Korean Conflict....

he would be dropped behind ememy lines with the barest of essentials. If he made it great, if not....Aunt Maxine would get a check and he would have become another MIA. Boy could he tell some hair raising stories when he had a mind (not very often). He was the quite type though and had the blackest sense of humour I ever saw. And you never...never...ever woke him up by shaking him. Aunt Maxine did when he first came home and he accidently broke her jaw with one blow and almost broke her neck before he realized where he was. Scared the bejesus out of everyone in the family. I can only imagine what he could have done if he hadn't really loved her. That just about killed him. And he never allowed guns in his house afterward. He never would hunt either. I think he spent the rest of his life trying to deal with those years. That is one group of soldiers that need intensive psych treatment and monitering when they get back.

[Hobarticus]

26. What's sad is, that was a generation before PTSD was even talked about...

His was a generation that was supposed to "suck it up", and if you couldn't then it just wasn't talked about, like it was something to be ashamed of.

We were good at making soldiers out of civilians, not so good at making soldiers back into civilians.

I hope he was able to find some peace, eventually. We owe him and his generation so much, they deserved better than that.

[slampoet]

43. Actually PTSD was talked about during WWII and Korea. It was just called Operational Exhaustion.

Just like during the first World War it was called Shell-Shock.

We haven't gotten much better at dealing with it in 90 years, but we keep getting these slick new terms for it.

[AnneD]

44. So true...

everyone referred to him as being shell shocked-but it wasn't the shells that did it to him. He just wasn't cut out to be an assasin. He and Maxine were happily married until he died. There were just some things you didn't ask about unless he brought up the subject and he would sometime have some dark clouds of depression-but he was surrounded by a loving family that gave him comfort, support, respect, and understanding. I think we did better than any pill or therapist.
We have lots of family members that have done service time (men and women-all branches). There is a lot of empathy.

[slampoet]

45. I would be remiss if i didn't credit George Carlin. I am paraphrazing him in the post above.

forgot to credit the source.

[bleedingheart]

42. My Aunt was married to a guy who was so shellshccked after WWII

that he got into a fight with her...was arrested because he was so violent...when he came out of it in the jail cell he was sure that he had killed her...and he hung himself in his cell.

War does awful things to people...

[mitchum]

35. Slightly off topic: But is there any word as to what song she was singing?

[3waygeek]

47. My guess is

"Hit me with your best shot" :evilgrin:

[2Design]

37. this is what happens when you train people to kill - it screws with their

mind - the government is messing up all of our young adults by teaching them to kill

[Harper_is_Bush]

52. Your comment is unmitigated nonsense.

and should be retracted.

[superconnected]

53. How is that comment unmitigated nonsense?

Seems like it fits the scenario.

[Harper_is_Bush]

55. No actually, it doesn't "seem like it fits the scenario" at all.

His claim was that if you train people to kill, this is what happens.

If we look at how many people the military has trained to kill and how many times this happens, it really doesn't fit the scenario at all.

It's a ridiculous comment.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

56. It was jarring to read. A broadbush statement.

MKJ

[Eugene]

64. AP: Shooting Suspect Commits Suicide

Source: Associated Press

Shooting Suspect Commits Suicide

Wednesday July 18, 2007 5:01 AM

By MEAD GRUVER

Associated Press Writer

LARAMIE, Wyo. (AP) - A military sharpshooter accused of
killing his estranged wife as she sang at a bar died Tuesday
night after being found with a self-inflicted gunshot wound
to the chest, police said.

Wyoming Army National Guardsman David Munis was found
by a search team shortly before 8 p.m. MDT and was flown
to Ivinson Memorial Hospital in Laramie, where he was
pronounced dead, said Cheyenne police Lt. Mark Munari.

Munis, 36, apparently shot himself as searchers closed in on
him, Munari said.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6787230,00.html

[Socal31]

65. Sad indeed.

But my answer to every gun-control argument:

Heart Attacks, HBP, and Diabetes kill FAR more people through uncontrolled eating/lack of exercise. And you cant say that you only affect yourself through bad diet, because many children get thier eating habits through the parents.

So...we ban everything except carrots and celery?