Meat is murder on the environment

[Ezlivin]

Source: New Scientist

A kilogram of beef is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.

This is among the conclusions of a study by Akifumi Ogino of the National Institute of Livestock and Grassland Science in Tsukuba, Japan, and colleagues, which has assessed the effects of beef production on global warming, water acidification and eutrophication, and energy consumption. The team looked at calf production, focusing on animal management and the effects of producing and transporting feed. By combining this information with data from their earlier studies on the impact of beef fattening systems, the researchers were able to calculate the total environmental load of a portion of beef.

The calculations, which are based on standard industrial methods of meat production in Japan, did not include the impact of managing farm infrastructure and transporting the meat, so the total environmental load is higher than the study suggests.

Most of the greenhouse gas emissions are in the form of methane released from the animals' digestive systems, while the acid and fertilising substances come primarily from their waste. Over two-thirds of the energy goes towards producing and transporting the animals' feed.

Read more: http://environment.newscientist.com/article/mg19526134.500-meat-is-murder-on-the-environment.html

---

Despite the results of this study, I suspect that there will be a lot of resistance to any attempts to limit CO₂ by enacting additional regulations on the beef industry.

[aquart]

1. Do you really.

[Ezlivin]

6. Well, just between you and me

I do.

[HereSince1628]

2. Wanna help? Figure out how WHALEmeat destroys the environment n/t

[leftchick]

3. four people in my family do not eat beef

or pork. Disgusting. :puke:

[damntexdem]

24. It may be disgusting, but it's their choice.

They shouldn't have to eat beef or pork if they don't want to.

;-)

[RebelOne]

83. I guess I am double disgusting. I don't eat any kind of meat. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

128. Why would that be disgusting?

Or maybe you're being funny?

I know I don't digest any of that well, and frankly, have never much liked beef, pork or lamb. So I don't eat it.

My digestive system is ever so much happier, and for me, it's certainly no sacrifice.

Now, if you told me no more chocolate or ice cream, I'd have a much harder time!

[MLFerrell]

133. Four people in your family are missing out on bacon, the most delicious food in existence?

Yikes! :)

[HereSince1628]

4. sorry, not quite sure how I duped that.

[Kali]

5. try pasture raised

no feed transport, no waste issues (dung is a resource not a waste product), more natural, healthier and can be a POSITIVE tool in managing resources rather than a destructive, problem driven enterprise.

http://www.eatwild.com/

I hate when these "studies" forget to look at alternatives. Not much in life is either/or.

[Ezlivin]

8. I rarely eat beef and when I do it's organic

My wife and I have been gradually reducing our intake of red meat and only buy organic food.

You are correct that many of these articles do not address the alternatives. In the defense of New Scientist, this was an article to simply discuss the study, not offer alternatives or the results of similar studies.

[NashVegas]

98. It's Like the Marijuana Studies That Gave Monkeys More Dope In One Dose

Than most MJ smokers went through in a lifetime.

It's using the extreme example to make the argument. No thinking meat-eater would rather have factory-farmed livestock than pastured, once they know what goes into it.

[Sanctified]

15. I only eat Pasture Raised beef, pork and poultry

and my beef has to be grass fed and I wont touch pork that was fed grain.

Have you red Jo Robinson's book "Pasture Perfect", it was from that book that I originally found the website you posted.

[OlderButWiser]

135. Do the piggies and cows

come with a diary telling you what they ate?

[Lorien]

60. No, it's still a problem

see post #59.

[Kali]

121. wrong

do more research

[Sapere aude]

116. Wrong,

When there is no rain there is feed hauling. Then there is shipment in and shipment out of the animals. The dung is not fertilizer. It sits there until it dries up and blows away.

[Kali]

119. ...

"When there is no rain there is feed hauling." Not always, but even so that is nothing compared to the transport to feedlots year round. Plus it tends to be shorter distances and is usually hay, not grains which is a bit less intensive in terms of mining the soil.

If you are buying local, animal shipment is pretty minimal.

"The dung is not fertilizer. It sits there until it dries up and blows away." Say what? On healthy soil bugs, worms, birds, and countless microorganisms cycle dung quite fast. In wetter climates it can happen in a few minutes! Even where I am (16 inch average rainfall) during dry seasons it is cycled in a few days, a few hours during monsoons.

Granted where lots of pesticides are used on livestock (especially internal) the dung will sit, but most folks doing pasture fed beef tend to be doing it organic and don't use that stuff.

Also I have never seen dried cow pies blowing in the wind. :rofl: Usually if they do dry out and sit (like on pavement or some site that isn't functioning well ecologically) they just sit, or packrats haul them off to their middens.

[Sapere aude]

123. Dude, I live in open range territory surrounded by cattle every day of my life.

I have to fence them off my property. The cow shit lays there for years! This is one of the driest summers on record. There is no grass to eat. Ranchers are trucking in feed daily. The cattle are shipped to slaughter houses who knows were.

[Kali]

125. Dude, I do too. I am a rancher.

So does it sit there for years or blow away? I'm confused. Not. Read my post again. Where the soil is healthy and functioning, and insecticides are avoided (especially broad spectrum internal varieties) dung breaks down very quickly.

One of the driest summers on record, resulting in feed hauling is clearly not the normal procedure, therefore my premise stands: pasture raised is less environmentally harmful than conventional feedlot finished beef.

Again, locally produced and purchased implies locally processed - hence minimal trucking to slaughter.

[Jed Dilligan]

134. The "spiritual" vegetarians never seem to consider

how many animals are killed or prevented from existing by an acre of soybeans.

[slowry]

136. sure they do. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

141. Then their claim to moral superiority

is based on lies, not ignorance. That's even worse.

[slowry]

142. Do you know where most of the soy produced goes?

Especially the most irresponsibly produced lots? I'd guess most every "serious" vegetarian or vegan does. Nobody is claiming to have ZERO EFFECT on the planet or other animals. There is, imho, quite a difference between eating zero animals and eating tons of animals, all stuffed full of soy.

Why worry about global climate change, if China isn't, amirite?

Find stronger propaganda :(.

[Jed Dilligan]

144. I put "spiritual" in for a reason.

I would be the first to admit major problems with the meat industry, which is why I only eat free-range meat and wild-caught fish.

I approve of a vegetarian diet for anyone who can use it and remain healthy--and that is decidedly not all people.

The "spiritual" type of vegetarian, who acts like they don't harm animals at all because of their diet, is what I find objectionable. Then again, all religious and quasi-religious people are kind of a joke to me.

[OnionPatch]

139. They never do mention pasture-raised

Even though it's better in so many ways. Another positive is if more people switched to pasture-raised beef, it would help small family farmers instead of the big beef corporations.

[conspirator]

7. I couldn't leave without my 250g daily portion of steak n/t

[villager]

9. once there is no longer enough energy for the 4-1 ratio of grain to meat...

...i.e., taking four pounds of grain (plus the water, fertlizers, etc.) to yield a pound of meat...then dietary habits will change...

[ThomCat]

11. Yes, necessity will drag people, kicking and screaming

towards a more sustainable diet. The meat industry will have to become smaller and less environmentally destructive.

And vegetarians will be attacked and insulted continuously as if it's all our fault.

[SIMPLYB1980]

14. I don't attack vegitarians. Eat what you want.

But I love my hamburgers and steaks. I also like to have a smoke and a beer every once in a while. I agree we should be smarter in how we raise our food. Humans are omnivores. Even a vegetarian will eat a slimjim if their starving, but like I said eat what you want and let me eat what I want.

[ThomCat]

16. It would be nice if more meat eaters thought that way.

Many meat-eaters take it as a direct challenge when they hear that someone is a vegetarian.

[damntexdem]

27. It would be nice if both "sides" acted that way:

every so often we get the "meat is murder" crap aimed at the omnivorous, and not even dressed up as an environmental concern.

As the saying goes: 'If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?'

[ThomCat]

28. If you're looking for fairness, please recognize that that quote

is kind of offensive. After all, 'If we're not supposed to eat people, why are they made out of meat?'

That original quote is meaningless, and it's intended only to be offensive. It's nothing but flamebait.

[mzteris]

93. NOW you've done it, TC.

I made that comment once - and was attacked most viciously. :(

How're you feeling?

:hug:

[SIMPLYB1980]

32. I wish more did to.

I know the people you speak of and despise them. I'm a hunter, but I eat all that I kill, and respect the animal for it's sacrifice. My dad raised me that way. Those people you speak of kill for killings sake, and it disgusts me. I also respect vegetarians for there choices, I couldn't live without meat, but more power to you if you can.

[420inTN]

90. More vegetarians means more meat for me. LOL n/t

[pokercat999]

53. "Even a vegetarian will eat a slimjim if their starving"

Following that line of thinking would lead me to "Even a beef eater would eat a fellow human being, if they were starving".
Wouldn't you agree?

[AndyTiedye]

69. I Can Never Figure Out Whether Those Are Meat or Plastic

[pokercat999]

81. Read the label, they are "parts" including lips and noses.

If the "lips and noses" isn't on SlimJim it's on another one of those tube meat products. Anyone who eats this crap has no idea what's in there, it could be ANYTHING. Except healthy food.

[Shakespeare]

113. Who says lips and noses are unhealthy cuts of meat?

They aren't. In fact, in most cultures, where there is little or no waste when an animal is consumed (which is the only responsible way to approach meat consumption), those parts are most certainly eaten, and generally prepared in very palatable ways. It's only our western (and really, specifically American) prejudice against anything but what we (absurdly) consider prime cuts that makes most in this country go "eeww gross" at the idea of eating those parts of an animal.

If we're going to eat meat, we shouldn't be wasteful about it, and we should look harder for more sustainable ways or raising meat (and I'm not just talking about beef--rabbit may be the most environmentally friendly meat to produce).

[pokercat999]

118. I grew up "Pennsylvania Dutch" they never wasted any

part of any animal. Maybe that's why I'm a Vegetarian today.

[SIMPLYB1980]

87. Humans do eat each other.

In extreme circumstances I think I could eat a person. Who knows when the survival instinct kicks in?

[Marrah_G]

102. It's been known to happen.

[villager]

74. I am simply talking about the eventual cost of "eating what you want,"

in terms of grain, fresh water, pollution, fuel to bring it to market, etc., etc...

[Ezlivin]

17. Americans' dietary habits will change only by force

The force of nature, of course.

Just as Peak Oil will force us to change our lifestyles, the energy deficit inherent in meat production could ultimately prove to be its downfall.

[silverojo]

34. And then we'll have a society of vit. B12 deficient people

I eat very little meat because of stomach problems (not by choice). As a result, I developed a vitamin B12 deficiency that could have resulted in nerve damage, paralysis, and death. Thank God I had a savvy doctor who caught the problem in time.

People are born with wisdom teeth for a reason: THEY'RE THERE TO GRIND MEAT. Humans are OMNIVOROUS. Denying yourself such an integral part of a diet is bad for your health.

Yes, eating too much meat (or too much of anything) is bad for you. But vegetarians too often turn a blind eye to the very real dangers they're putting themselves into. I'm living proof of what a lack of meat and animal products can do.

The reason our environment is in danger isn't because people eat meat. It's because there are TOO MANY people in the world now. Birth control is the only real answer, because overpopulation is what's killing us. More people using oil = more pollution and depleted resources. You didn't see global warming 40 years ago, when there were far fewer people on earth.

This world needs to cut back on breeding and start adopting. Not only would that help solve the problem of children with no loving homes, it would also help this world start on the road to recovery, by limiting the population growth to a reasonable degree that our earth can sustain.

[ret5hd]

49. I'm glad you don't claim to be a dietician.

[BuddhaGirl]

57. that is just your experience

"I eat very little meat because of stomach problems (not by choice). As a result, I developed a vitamin B12 deficiency that could have resulted in nerve damage, paralysis, and death."

Sorry, but it doesn't mean all vegetarians experience that. I know many very healthy vegetarians who pay attention to B12 intake. Stop with the broad brush.

[muriel_volestrangler]

78. Mmmm ... Marmite

4 grammes contain 60% of the RDA of B12, and it's vegetarian (and vegan, for that matter).



http://www.bbc.co.uk/stoke/features/2002/07/marmite.shtml

[Ezlivin]

85. No we won't

There are sources of B12 other than red meat: Fish, eggs and milk.

Perhaps you misread my post. I didn't call for everyone, everywhere to adopt a strict vegan diet.

You base your claim that we need meat upon the presence of "wisdom teeth." Unfortunately you are overlooking the rest of the equation: The shape of the oral cavity and the intestinal tract.

Here's the summary from The Comparative Anatomy of Eating by Milton R. Mills, M.D.

Summary

Facial Muscles

CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape

HERBIVORE: Well-developed

OMNIVORE: Reduced

HUMAN: Well-developed

Jaw Type

CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded

HERBIVORE: Expanded angle

OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded

HUMAN: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location

CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth

HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars

OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth

HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion

CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion

HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side

HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles

CARNIVORE: Temporalis

HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids

OMNIVORE: Temporalis

HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size

CARNIVORE: Large

HERBIVORE: Small

OMNIVORE: Large

HUMAN: Small

Teeth: Incisors

CARNIVORE: Short and pointed

HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

OMNIVORE: Short and pointed

HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth: Canines

CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved

HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none

OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved

HUMAN: Short and blunted

Teeth: Molars

CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped

HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface

OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened

HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing

CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole

HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary

OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing

HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva

CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes

HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes

HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type

CARNIVORE: Simple

HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers

OMNIVORE: Simple

HUMAN: Simple

Stomach Acidity

CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach

HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach

HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity

CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract

HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract

OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract

HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine

CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length

HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length

OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length

HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon

CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth

HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated

OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth

HUMAN: Long, sacculated

Liver

CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A

HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A

HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney

CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine

HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine

OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine

HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails

CARNIVORE: Sharp claws

HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves

OMNIVORE: Sharp claws

HUMAN: Flattened nails

[cambie]

130. And then there is the Brain.

Cats and horses have no choice about what they eat or how they live. We do. The human body isn't specialized for anything, in fact isn't good for much except carrying around the Skull containing the Brain. The Brain says we can be anything we want to be.

[mzteris]

95. only VEGANS

need trouble themselves about getting enough B-12.

The requirements for B-12 is actually quite low. And you don't really get b-12 from MEAT but from bacteria and fungi - which gets into the animal from something the critter ate.

You can get B-12 from certain yeasts, fortified cereal, fortified soy milk, fortified "meat" substitutes. And for lacto-ovo vegetarians - milk, eggs, yogurt, other dairy.


edit to add: Molars are for GRINDING, period. Not specialized for "meat".

[AndyTiedye]

70. Then Livestock Will Be Raised More Efficiently

4-1 is worst case. It doesn't have to be that bad, it isn't for most meats,
and as the inputs get more expensive those raising livestock will use less of them.
When grain gets more expensive, cows get to eat grass instead.
There is also typically less beef and more chicken, pork, lamb, etc.

Those who have to use their land very efficiently to survive still usually have
some livestock such as goats, sheep, or chickens.
If a strict vegan diet were ALWAYS the most efficient, they would not do thiat.

I think the ideal balance includes some meat, but sigincantly less than is
typical of American diets today.

[slackmaster]

10. I'm switching to a diet of popcorn and beer

:popcorn: :beer:

[AwakeAtLast]

31. Gummy Bears and Slurpees for me!

;)

:9

[IndyOp]

12. 1 kilogram = 2.2 pounds = 6-8 servings of beef

So, if someone eats two servings of beef a day (lunch, dinner) then 3-4 days of beef in their diet = 3 hours of driving + lights at home.

Hm.

I'm a vegetarian, don't look at me.

:hide:

[AndyTiedye]

68. I Don't Think I Go Through More Like 2.2 Pounds of Beef a Month

and that is orgranic and grass-fed not too far away.

If someone easts 2 servings of beef a day, I'd think they'd get rather tired of it. I would.

Any other livestock has a smaller environmental footprint than cattle.
My preferences run to poultry and fish.
Gotta have some protein, and complementary proteins don't seem to do it for me.
If I do without any meat or fish, my energy level plumets and I'm constantly hungry.

[smoogatz]

13. We don't buy pork much anymore--

it's very hard to find any in our area that isn't treated with this 10% saline "tenderizing" solution, which makes it taste salty and just adds a lot of water weight. Plus, I hate to support the factory hog-farm industry, which plays hell with the environment on the local level. The only beef we buy is locally grown, grass-fed organic--which makes one hell of a tasty burger. So I think we're good to go.

[BrightKnight]

18. Just add some enzymes like Beano to the feed or water.

There is no way that anyone is going to convince people to give up meat.

[MadHound]

19. Depends on the meat

Organicly raised cattle for the local market are a lot less harder on the enviroment.

In addition, grazing livestock is needed as part of traditional organic agriculture. Such animals provide manure, a fertilizer that takes the place of chemical fertilizers. If it wasn't for this you would soon have declining crop yields and increasingly infertile land.

[Kolesar]

25. Need manure or high-nitrogen fertilizer from petrochemicals to grow many crops

I just read a book on this subject. I don't think I could make a fertile enough compost from only leaves and lawn waste. Would need some other input

[kineneb]

96. three-field crop rotation

began in the Middle Ages to keep the soils fertile. I have never understood why more modern sustainable farmers don't return to this method. It is as if it disappeared into a memory hole. (why reinvent wheel?)

The system went something like this-

Year 1:
Field A: spring crops (usually legumes)
Field B: winter grain
Field C: fallow, with grazing animals to provide manure for fertilizer

Year 2:
A: winter grain
B: fallow
C: spring crops

Year 3:
A: fallow
B: spring crops
C: winter grains

This assumes the summer rains of northern Europe; in drier southern Europe, the farmers continued with the ancient two-field system.

medieval history geek /off

[MadHound]

100. That wasn't lost, merely modified over the years

In fact that traditional crop rotation was used by almost every farmer, with modifications for climate, all the way up into the mid twentieth century when petroleum based fertilizers came on the scene. It is still a rotation system used by organic farmers to this day. There are variations, I generally grow a rotation of a cover crop, soybeans or winter rye, and till it in as green manure.

It's really a shame that hemp can no longer be included in that rotation, an excellent crop for bringing many nutrients up closer to the surface and fixing nitrogen.

[Kali]

122. hemp fixes nitrogen?

[Megahurtz]

20. They Blame Most Greenhouse Gas Emissions on Cow Farts???

:eyes: They must be kidding.

Sounds like a ReichWing diversion tactic to shift the focus
away from the number one problem, which is the burning of Fossil Fuels i.e. BIG OIL.



Looks like some people fell for it. :popcorn:

[TexasBushwhacker]

127. Not most and not farts

Actually, it's cow burps that cause the methane. They aren't able to digest the starch in corn all that well.

[Megahurtz]

148. Weird.

Not that I am all for the way they treat Cattle, because I'm not, but I still think they are looking in
the wrong direction as far as the cause, and they need to end any and all kinds of Oil dependence.

[dnbn]

21. The problem is the methane released by cows.

Methane is much more destructive than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. Organic farming probably wouldn't make much difference.

[damntexdem]

26. Only 2/3 by eliminating the transport of feed.

Do you advocate the slaughter to extinction of all cattle so as to reduce methane emissions?

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. It wouldn't involve slaughter

just not breeding them. The world populations of the major farmed animals - cattle, pigs, chicken, sheep - are far higher than they would have been if humans hadn't domesticated them. And I don't think anyone here has advocated making them extinct, either.

[roody]

22. I have not eaten meat for 32 years. eom

[ThomCat]

29. That is awesome. I just passed 19 years recently.

Doing our part to save the world, one meal at a time. :)

[emilyg]

72. Going on 20 years.

[Raine]

41. I haven't eaten meat since I was 9, I'm 56 now. :-) nt

[roody]

45. Right On! and Please pass the beets.

[ThomCat]

47. That's amazing.

I'm glad your family let you give up meat when you were a kid. I had to wait until I went away to college before I could give up meat.

[Raine]

50. My parents were unconventional types

and along with that at the time the family doctor was a Seventh Day Adventist (they are not much into meat). Once I realized meat came from animals (which I loved) I refused to eat it and my parents talked to the doctor and he was good with it. :-)

[Sacajawea]

62. 43+ years for me. Hale, hearty and just fine, thank you.

[Exultant Democracy]

73. 26 years, but I was born that way.

I was all-state in three sports in high school and I was no slouch academically either. I've never broken a bone or had a cavity and it is rare that anyone in my family gets sick.

My family became vegetarian a few years before I was born because my parents were serious athletes and they were looking to extend their careers though better health. In fact my father is the oldest man to ever medal in Olympic wrestling, and now at almost 60 he is still tossing around guys less then half his age.

[damntexdem]

23. "Over two-thirds of the energy goes towards producing and transporting the animals' feed."

That says most of it. Get rid of feedlots. Will that drive up beef prices? Well, that would reduce beef consumption, so further reduce the impact on the environment.

[pschoeb]

30. Silly headline

Off course cows aren't the only source of meat, and of course methane can be used as energy instead of letting it go into the atmosphere. Also most ranchers want to reduce methane production, because it decreases digestion efficiency in animals.

Obviously one has the same transport costs for non-animal feed for humans, and since to get a decent amount of protein on a non-animal diet, one would have to eat soy products like tofu that are actually concentrated soy products, or a much larger amounts of beans, my guess is the transport and production costs end up very similar. Tofu production creates its own waste problems, most of which now goes to feed livestock. Soy and other bean crops need more land and water than many grains used for feed. The worlds rice paddies create more methane gas than all ruminants(like cows) combined.

The question also is, if humans eat an all vegetable diet will they produce more methane than if they eat a mixed diet?(most likely yes, especially if they eat high soy diets) what is the difference if any between the two, and how does it compare to pasture raised white tailed deer(produce much much less methane than cows per kg of meat, plus meat has higher protein density), whose waste is collected, and methane used for energy. Or chickens whose waste is collected and methane used for energy. Chickens are very efficient at converting grain to meat(2 to 1), use less water, and their methane production to the atmosphere would be somewhat easy to control.

[Oak2004]

33. Not unless you choose to consider it "waste"

For about a year, many years ago, I regularly made my own tofu.

To cut to the chase, what you have after the whole process is tofu, tofu whey, and solids called okara by the Japanese. All three of these items are human-edible. I'd usually immediately follow a batch of homemade tofu with a batch of homemade bread using the whey. Sometimes the bread would also contain the okara, other times I'd make okara patties or some other food item from the okara. Tofu manufacture produces "waste" only to the extent that bakers aren't using the whey and Western consumers aren't aware that okara is a tasty soyfood of its own accord. I suspect lack of cheap energy would readjust consumer awareness soon enough.

P.S.: I'm an omnivore: I just know what to do with a windfall of free soybeans when broke.

[ThomCat]

48. Of course cows aren't the only source of meat.

But other farmed animals (like the huge pig farms) are just as environmentally destructive, or more so. And how could you possibly harness cow farts as a form of energy? Until that methane can be captured, it is going into the atmosphere.

I don't know what you consider "a much larger amount of beans." It seems to me that you would only be eating a volume of beans comparable to the volume of meat. You might be right about the comparable transport costs, but that's only one link in the chain of environmental impact.

[Alexander]

35. Don't blame me, I'm a vegetarian.

I know all too well the consequences of socially irresponsible choices.

[qazplm]

58. see, no offense

but it is this kind of holier than thou I'm socially responsible and you are not that makes many vegetarians just as responsible for the nasty back and forth as meat-eaters.

I am not socially irresponsibly SIMPLY because I enjoy a little fried chicken here or a steak once every couple of weeks or a package of jerky on occasion.

Seems to me if we got off of fossil fuels, recycled, and did a lot of other things, then cow farts would be far less of a concern.

No one is denying that we can't do it better, but that's a function of doing it better, not simply saying everyone must eat tofu or they are socially irresponsible.

[Alexander]

63. I didn't say "blame the meat-eaters", I just said "don't blame me"

I realize you want to take your anger out on self-righteous vegetarians, but I assure you I am not one of them.

"but it is this kind of holier than thou I'm socially responsible and you are not that makes many vegetarians just as responsible for the nasty back and forth as meat-eaters."

1. It was a joke. Lighten up.

2. I never claimed anyone who ate meat wasn't socially responsible. I simply said that I was.

"I am not socially irresponsibly SIMPLY because I enjoy a little fried chicken here or a steak once every couple of weeks or a package of jerky on occasion."

Did I ever say that? No. I agree with this part of your post.

"Seems to me if we got off of fossil fuels, recycled, and did a lot of other things, then cow farts would be far less of a concern."

Well, I changed my bulbs, I walk, bike and try to use public transit as often as possible, I recycle, I drive a car that gets 35+ MPG, and I turn off electronics when I'm not using them.

Is that socially responsible enough for you?

"No one is denying that we can't do it better, but that's a function of doing it better, not simply saying everyone must eat tofu or they are socially irresponsible."

I never said people need to eat tofu, I don't think that, and I don't appreciate your twisting of my words to suit your argument. It's merely one thing I am doing out of 100 to try to help the environment.

[Marrah_G]

105. Your words were pretty clear

Don't blame you because you are a vegetarian. Blame those other people who are not vegetarians. They are socially irresponsible.

It was pretty clear, no matter how you try and spin it. Comments like yours are part of what brings about the flamefests every time a topic like this comes up. You have people on both sides that just love to get preachy and tell the other side how stupid, ignorant, irresponsible, etc that they are.

Those people wind up on my ignore list and DU is a much nicer place without them.

[Alexander]

129. You apparently have no sense of humor.

"Don't blame you because you are a vegetarian. Blame those other people who are not vegetarians. They are socially irresponsible."

Are you for real?

This was a JOKE. Get it? NOT SERIOUS.

Ever heard "Don't blame me, I'm from Massachusetts"? It's exactly like that (I paraphrased it - what a concept). Nixon lost Massachusetts (and only Massachusetts) in the 1972 election. Did everyone from MA vote for his opponent? No. The bumper stickers weren't asserting that.

That's why it's a joke, and not meant to be taken literally. I see some DUers will take everything literally. :eyes:

"It was pretty clear, no matter how you try and spin it."

The only thing that's clear is that you are overreacting to a facetious comment and you need to chill out.

"Comments like yours are part of what brings about the flamefests every time a topic like this comes up. You have people on both sides that just love to get preachy and tell the other side how stupid, ignorant, irresponsible, etc that they are."

I didn't say a single negative word about people who eat meat. I personally don't care if you eat meat. But if you choose to interpret my innocuous comment in the most hostile way imaginable, that's your problem.

The article, in case you were paying attention, was about the environmental hazards of how most people get their meat. My joke (remember, that means not serious) was based off of the idea that since I don't eat meat, it's hard to say how I contribute to this particular problem.

"Those people wind up on my ignore list and DU is a much nicer place without them."

If you're so sensitive to the slightest perceived criticism that you need to ignore people who make jokes, maybe you should think twice about whether DU is the right place for you.

[customerserviceguy]

76. Yep

I've gotten the kind of crap from vegans and vegetarians that almost make Jerry Falwell look like a "minding my own business" kind of guy.

[MNDemNY]

36. P-eople for the E-ating of T-asty A-nimals

Yummy

[ThomCat]

37. Don't you think that gets old

after it's been posted over and over and over again? :eyes:

[MNDemNY]

40. Not as long as they are cooked to perfection.

[Raine]

43. Yeah that thing is so old it's got cobwebs on it

you would think the meat eaters could come up with something newer. :boring:

[mzteris]

97. maybe all that meat

is going to his brain and destroying his creativity.


Ah - what the heck. He's just a newb. Whaddya expect? :eyes:

[Raine]

42. P-eople E-ating T-oxic A-nimals

is more like it :puke:

[MNDemNY]

44. I never eat the toxic ones.

You mean like asps and scorpions?

[toadzilla]

65. fucking hilarious

that someone still thinks thats original enough to deserve a post...

[karlrschneider]

38. How about a kilogram of human meat?

??

[Arugula Latte]

46. A good solution to overpopulation

I suggest we start with the fundies who breed heavily -- their offspring are plump, tender and succulent. :9

[Sin]

55. Actually.

Human meat I hear doesn't taste that well because were meat eaters Vegetarians on the other hand yummy

[AndyTiedye]

39. So Let The Cows Eat Grass

Cows can digest grass. People can't.

[Lorien]

59. They do eat grass in Central and South America, where much of our beef

comes from. The only problem; cattle need A LOT of pasture land, and much of the land that serves as pasture was once rain forest. It typically can support cattle for 10 years before turning into desert. The result?

[AndyTiedye]

64. You Don't Have to do it in the Amazon Rainforest

There is plenty of grassland in the world.

[Shakespeare]

67. Most of the rainforest being cleared is used for growing soy.

There are ways to sustainably produce meat--not just beef, but rabbit (perhaps the most environmentally friendly) and many other animals.

http://www.rainforestportal.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?Linkid=58731

"Soy is the top cash crop in Brazil and is now a leading cause of deforestation in the Amazon. The Amazon lost 6,950 square miles of rain forest between 2003 and 2004, while some 4,633 square miles of soybeans were planted during that time."

[yewberry]

71. Uh, better than 90% of soy is produced for livestock feed.

And yes, most of the rainforest being cleared is used for growing soy *for livestock*--not for humans.

[Shakespeare]

91. You missed my point.

The other poster was talking about land cleared for grazing. That's not what it's being cleared for.

(and I think all beef should be grassfed--anything else is, literally, unnatural)

[Kali]

120. better do a bit more research

we import less than 12% of the beef consumed in this country and most of that is pre-processed (canned) with some fresh (frozen) as ground.

The vast majoprity of fresh beef consumed in this country is raised and processed here.

[SayWhatYo]

51. So let's ban all meat products...

Who's on board? :P

[YankeyMCC]

52. This committed carnovore

who is also concerned about the environment and also thinks it's important for people to reconnect with the land they live on and the food chain that feeds them has made dramatic cuts in my meat consumption that I never would've imagined I would be able to do.

I now sometimes go a week or two without having meat. A month or two without having beef or pork.

I still eat meat, I love to bbq, but I've cut way down and when I do eat it I only buy locally raised, grass fed. When I go out to eat I try to go veg - I do make occasional exceptions but they are VERY occasional these days.

[Psephos]

54. I don't eat meat, fruit, vegetables, or grains

Just Soylent Green.

[SIMPLYB1980]

86. LOL!

[Big Pappa]

56. Pork tenderloin

seared on the Weber. Yummy.

[Lorien]

61. Was this brought up during Live Earth? I was thinking about it then

but I didn't hear anything mentioned while I was watching. A good resource on this topic is here: http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/beyond.html

[Endangered Specie]

66. Whatever, I'm still gonna grill a steak later this week.

[DemExpat]

75. "The environment" does come down to each of our personal daily choices.

Besides being murder on the environment, my choices to eat meat - I still eat some organic meat each week - cause hunger in others, besides commodification and often mistreatment/cruelty to the animals themselves.

These ideas need to be more visibly displayed in our societies, they are mind-boggling enough to push more people towards more vegetarian lifestyles IMO!

DemEx

[Socal31]

77. I dont think I would want to live in a world

without Baby Back Ribs and Pepper-crusted Filet-mignon. mmmmmmmm

[deminwi]

117. MMMMMMMmmmmmmm

Oh my goodness......my mouth waters just reading your post!!!!

[JCMach1]

79. I saw good research recently that the calculation of the COW PIE threat

was overblown...

At best, view such reports with a grain of salt...

[geiger]

80. I'm going out right now and buy my own spear so I can kill my own beef

[buddhamama]

84. meat per se is not the problem

it is the mass consumption of meat and factory farms.

eat less meat and eat only certain types of meat (buy from small local farms that offer a natural diet and the animals are humanely treated ), decrease the number of factory farms, reduce feed production and direct surpluses to needy countries.

[Shakespeare]

114. Well said. That's the most important point to be made. n/t

[KurtNYC]

88. "2/3 of energy goes towards producing and transporting...feed" eg; vegetables

I disagree with the idea that worldwide vegetarianism is the answer for climate change. And articles like this one do not make a fair comaprison of a specific vegetarian diet to an omnivorous one. To truly evaluate the impact of a vegetarian diet versus and omnivorous one, one would need to know:
- the environmental impact of the average real world omnivorous diet versus the average real world "vegetarian" diet on a per calorie basis.

Vegetarian diets in the real world range from the cheese pizza and junk food variety all the way over to raw food veganism. Likewise omnivorous diets are mostly (in terms of where the calories come from) corn syrup and lipids. Protein makes up less than 10% of the average American diet so focusing on that leaves out 90% or more of the equation.

[420inTN]

89. I never knew murder could taste so good. LOL n/t

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SIMPLYB1980]

94. You don't have to be a vegetarian to be a Democrat.

It's not to hell with the planet. Not all of us want to live without eating meat.

[kineneb]

99. not everyone can eat a vegetarian diet

Take dialysis patients, as an example- plant sources are high in potassium and phosphorus and do not provide enough protein for the patient to remain healthy. As an example, Hubby was told by the nephrologist to consume around 90 grams of protein per day, to compensate for what is removed during his dialysis sessions.

People on higher doses of anti-depressants also don't do well on a vegetarian diet. The chemicals upon which the medicines work are dependant on a higher quantity of protein to be effective.

Do not assume a vegetarian/vegan diet is healthy for everyone. It really depends on the individual.

There will always be animals raised for food. We should thank them for their sacrifice, and not waste anything they provide.

[Stuckinthebush]

101. Tofu and beans have a butt load of protein

The protein myth should be debunked.

Your point is well taken, however. There are individuals who need much more protein than others. Fortunately there are ways to accomplish this without eating meat.

[kineneb]

108. tofu and beans are on the restricted list

for dialysis patients. Too much phosphorus. Also, not enough protein for the bulk of the food, as many patients don't feel well enough to eat large meals.

Hubby is allergic to beans.

A vegetarian diet for dialysis patients is not recommended.

[Stuckinthebush]

111. Wow! That is restrictive

Good to know!

[kineneb]

112. most green vegies are restricted, too

No spinach, no potatoes, no tomatoes. They are high in potassium. Ditto bananas, apricots, melons, etc.

We used to call it the "chicken and rice" diet because that is about what is left after the restrictions. Suggested vegetables are green beans, bell pepper, cabbage, carrots, lettuce. Fruits are apples, berries, cherries, peaches. Starches are limited to "white foods"- no whole grains.

Dialysis only removes 15% of the toxins that normal kidneys can. So diet is a very important medical issue. If sodium, potassium or phosphorus levels get out of line, the imbalance(s) can cause all sorts of side effects, including death.

Sorry, but as the caregiver, I have become an expert on this subject, not that I wanted to do so.

[Jed Dilligan]

140. Or any renal condition. nt

[ThomCat]

103. I'm a vegan on medical instructions to reduce my protein intake

because I get far too much protein in my diet. Grains, nuts, beans, seeds, etc. There's a lot of dense protein in a lot of vegetarian foods.

You would think my now people would be past that myth that vegetarians don't get enough protein.

[kineneb]

110. not everyone can eat those things

such as Hubby, who has a bean allergy. The list of foods recommended for dialysis patients is quite restricted, and most vegetable protein sources are on the restricted or "avoid" lists.

Dialysis removes amino acids from the blood as it is cleaned. A patient can literally starve to death on a regular or low-protein diet. Their body actually eats itself. I know, because I have watched Hubby's health decline because he has no appetite and sometimes can't hold down any food. The Doc insists that he eat a high-protein diet, which does include meat and eggs.

[Marrah_G]

106. Oh yes, we omnivores are all republicans

Get over yourself. Unless you are connecting to the internet via telekinesis while living in a cave and surviving on raw fruits and vegetables you can pick up off the ground, then kindly spare the rest of us from your self-righteous bullshit.

Another asshat for my ignore collection.

[joeunderdog]

104. Honestly, are hairdryers and tv's really necessary?

No, and they waste energy. And most houses have them. Even those owned by Vegetarians.

I like to think I'm pretty conscientious about conservation, but I think that this element of the Protect the Planet is truly driven by the Vegetarian agenda. I am hearing more and more about not eating beef or meat lately, and I think it's fair enough to put the information out there. But this angle on the the Carnivore Question is merely a disguised attempt by Vegetarians to convert us.


I am an Omnivore, so stop trying to convince me to not be.

[ItNerd4life]

107. Growing vegetables kills more animals than all the animals butchered for food

Most people don't realize this, but it's estimated more animals are killed farming vegetables (or fruits) than all the cows, pigs, goats, etc. are killed and eaten for food.

If you worked or lived on a farm you know that insects are sprayed, unless it's organic then the insects are eaten by other insects. Either way, humans are involved in killing the insects.

But, aside from insects. Mice, skunks, frogs, snakes, lizards, raccoons, oppossums, etc are killed when the fields are plowed and when the fields are harvested.

Heck, I've killed more frogs this year just by mowing my lawn than the sum total of all the cows and pigs I've eaten. I try to avoid the frogs, but they stay hidden or sometimes just jump under the mower. Gruesome, really.

Just thought I would mention some of these interesting points from a farming perspective.

[buddhamama]

109. well, no, sort of,

it's all tied together if you consider the amount of 'vegetables' grown specifically to feed the animals we eat.

are you taking into account land destroyed to grow crops to feed animals? the destruction of habitat and death of animals and insects would be directly related to meat production.

[Emillereid]

115. Restore the grasslands of America and let the cattle and other animals

graze on their natural food. Corn is the problem (and industrialized farming) - fattens cattle and us. As one scientist said: Americans are corn tortilla chips on legs. There are responsible ways to farm and raise animals using sound diversified, ecological principles. Excellent books that speak to this: "Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization" by Richard Manning and "The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals" Michael Pollan.

[Seabiscuit]

124. OMG! My kid's BubbleYum just blew a hole in the ozone layer!!! EEEEEEK!

What a crock Ogino's study is.

[piedmont]

126. Deer meat's not. Squirrel, turkey, rabbit's ok too-- if you hunt for it. nt

[JudyM]

131. There was a report put out recently by the UN independently confirming this

and examining the rainforest destruction, fresh water depletion, etc...

http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/a0701e/A0701E00.pdf

[nam78_two]

138. Good link-I read bits of that study.nt

[JudyM]

146. It's strange that Gore didn't even mention it during Live Earth. Hot potato syndrome, no doubt.

He must've known about it... disappointing to think he didn't want to alienate people by putting it (reducing meat consumption) out there as something they could easily do to reduce global warming.

:eyes: :shrug:

[Baclava]

132. This thread is makin' me hongry

A slab of baby back BBQ ribs...slow cooked in the oven for 5 hrs at 200 degrees.
...then slapped on the grill for 15 min. to crisp them up....yum.

[slowry]

137. nice sig n/t

[conspirator]

143. I just had for dinner a juicy fillet steak, fried and served with white rice mmmmm n/t

[LanternWaste]

150. Wow! You added so much insight, wit and wisdom...

Wow! You've added so much insight, wit and wisdom with your remark. Added to that is your obvious benevolent attitude towards the vegans here, and I think you come away looking like a (insert self-validating epithet here). Thanks for a bad joke no one on this board has EVER heard before!

:sarcasm: (just in case you can't see the obvious...)

[TheFarseer]

145. here's what you are missing

people have been eating meat since they crawled out of the swamp and grew legs. Fortunately, there were only a few of us and we didn't have cities with millions of people in them and we didn't need huge herd of cattle and pigs emitting methane or thousands of trucks to transport the meat. Now we do have an incredible amount of people who demand an incredible amount of meat. So you see the problem all relates back to population.

[slowry]

151. That's quite inaccurate.

We've only been eating meat for a couple few million years; nothing like "since crawled out of the swamp and grew legs". Even then, it was a matter of necessity, due to the environment we found ourselves in. We scavenged the kills of other animals, eventually learning to kill on our own.

It's true we've grown up relying on meat, to varying degrees, but if you consider the diets of other Great Apes, and those of our ancestors, you'll find mostly leaf-, fruit-, insect-, invertebrate-eaters. Those who eat vertebrates scavenge for the odd bit of meat, or help themselves to bird eggs.

Our closest "cousins", the Chimpanzees, can't even agree on what to eat. Bonobos eat fruit more than anything, with other planty things and the odd invertebrate making up the bulk of the rest of their diet. I've read, though, that on very rare occasions they'll eat small vertebrates; perhaps when one is within an arm or two's reach. So-called Common Chimpanzees are decidedly omnivorous; again, though, they eat mainly fruit and planty things. But yeah, sometimes they'll hunt in packs and kill and eat monkeys. Mmmm.

Basically we've eaten animal meat when we had to, or because we could and we felt like it. Some of us can, but don't feel like it.

You seem to agree that there is a real problem here, but you put the bulk of the blame on over-population. Even if that's correct, which is easier to fix? Is it bell-tower time, or maybe chill-out-on-the-killing-of-everything time?

[IA_Seth]

147. Between my child and my eating habits...

I am a one-man environment destroying machine aren't I?

[LanternWaste]

149. As in all things...

As in all things, moderation and foresight can drastically reduce the footprint of humanity and allow us to better achieve balance with nature.