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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 09:33 PM
Original message
Overhaul Plan for Vote System Will Be Delayed
Source: NYTimes

Democratic leaders in the House and Senate are slowing their drive to revamp the nation’s voting systems, aides said yesterday.

Under pressure from state and local officials, as well as from lobbyists for the disabled, House leaders now advocate putting off the most sweeping changes until 2012, four years later than planned.

Overhauling voting systems before next year’s presidential election had once been a top Democratic priority, primarily to allow greater accountability and be certain that all votes registered on computerized touch-screen systems were counted. But state and local elections officials told Congress they could not make the changes in time for the balloting in November 2008, particularly in light of the extra workload involved in preparing for next year’s much-earlier presidential primary season.

Confronted by similar concerns, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California and the chairwoman of the Senate Rules Committee, said she had already decided against seeking any major changes in voting equipment before 2010.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/20/washington/20vote.html?hp
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CK_John Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is great news. We'll keep our old lever action, no electric required for another big one. n/t
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I disagree - Dems might be letting the damn Repukes steal the WH again
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 10:18 PM by RamboLiberal
There's a helluva lot of paperless computer voting systems out there now with "proprietery software". Dems damn well better follow the House lead and demand printers for the '08 election. Hope someone thinks of the fact that a print copy needs to be retained for a recount cause otherwise it wouldn't be hard to print that you voted for the Dem while sticking the electronic tick in the Repukes column. As an IT person I really would like to see random samples taken where the total of the paper receipts were compared to the tally in the machine.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You're right, RamboLiberal. I fear they will steal it again. If Clinton
is our candidate, the corporate media is all primed to say "the country wasn't ready for a woman." If we go with Obama, the corporate media will say "the country wasn't ready for an African American." John Edwards? "He's become too populists. America is a conservative country, after all." Al Gore might be the hardest for them to spin; but, hey, a Gore "defeat" would only prove that Dubya won fair and square in 2000.
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. IMO more than tinkering at the margins is required for fair elections. We need to start over,
with new legislation that sets iron-clad national standards for voting equipment, registration and voting procedures, audits of every national election, and cost-benefit principles for any proposed state "improvements" such as "Voter ID".

IMO we'll never get them under Republican appointee control of the FEC and other national bodies that are squandering money on "reforms" that make elections even more unaccountable. IMO, Jimmy Carter, Chris Dodd, and Steny Hoyer really "gave away the store" to Republican election skulduggery in the "Help America Vote Act". Despite plenty of warnings, Jimmy Carter did not insist on iron-clad national voting standards on the Carter-Ford and Carter-Baker Electoral Reform Commissions. Carter even agreed to Baker's ingenious "Voter ID" proposal, that could strip away 10 percent more Democratic than Republican voters!

There are many tricks in the election fraud book, and IMO national standards have to anticipate most of them and incorporate audit procedures for every election. For instance, just the number of items on a ballot can swing elections by keeping each voter in the booth so long that hundreds of others behind them abandon their places on long lines in underequipped urban precincts. Some jurisdictions have put close to 100 decision items on one ballot!

IMO we need a national system of "preview" optical scan machines that give voters feedback on ballot validity and accuracy. Further, each voter should be able to revise and resubmit their ballots on the basis of such feedback BEFORE they leave the polling place. And if there are local races and referenda to be decided, IMO they should be separated out on a second paper ballot form for separate scanning. National and statewide offices must be on a separate, simple, uniform statewide ballot that provides a clear paper trail.

IMO it's better to wait for new legislation with ironclad national standards than to allow some states to systematize gold-plated DRE election theft and "Voter ID" that costs thousands of legitimate voters their franchise for each alleged instance of "voter fraud" theoretically prevented.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. we're fucked!..thanks alot to those who fucked us!! nationwide! eom
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks, Dianne! Let's have another staged election
for old times' sake! :sarcasm:
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
7. Kiss 2008 goodbye.
The Holt bill wasn't perfect but it was a step in the right direction. The sad fact is that Congressional Democrats by and large still seem to feel that there is no problem--or maybe some of them like the idea of voting tallies that can be easily manipulated provided that their partisans are the ones doing the manipulating.

As for those who think that scrapping the Holt bill because it wasn't perfect was the right thing to do, I'd suggest that maybe another presidential election in which a Republican candidate, elected under questionable circumstances, who believes in the "Unitary Executive" theory, could solve the problem forever.

You don't have to worry about counting the votes if you don't have elections.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. kick
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. Overhaul Plan for Vote System Will Be Delayed
Source: NYT

July 20, 2007
Overhaul Plan for Vote System Will Be Delayed
By CHRISTOPHER DREW

Democratic leaders in the House and Senate are slowing their drive to revamp the nation’s voting systems, aides said yesterday.

Under pressure from state and local officials, as well as from lobbyists for the disabled, House leaders now advocate putting off the most sweeping changes until 2012, four years later than planned.

Overhauling voting systems before next year’s presidential election had once been a top Democratic priority, primarily to allow greater accountability and be certain that all votes registered on computerized touch-screen systems were counted. But state and local elections officials told Congress they could not make the changes in time for the balloting in November 2008, particularly in light of the extra workload involved in preparing for next year’s much-earlier presidential primary season.

Confronted by similar concerns, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California and the chairwoman of the Senate Rules Committee, said she had already decided against seeking any major changes in voting equipment before 2010.

“My sense is there’s no way to get this thing in place by the election of 2008,” Ms. Feinstein said. “Without adequate time, we could cause real problems in the election.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/20/washington/20vote.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. or lose the election by fraud, ms feinstein (do u have stock in those companies?) nt
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. that's not good at all.
not good at all.
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southerncrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. How can this not be PRIORITY ONE for the Dems?!?
This is our most urgent problem. It & Iraq. All Dem Congressmen should be working on this. It is NOT that hard!

Independent candidates look better every day.
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Don't we need adequate national standards for equipment and voting procedures first?
And IMO we'll never get them under Republican appointee control of the FEC and other national bodies that are squandering money on "reforms" that make elections even more unaccountable. IMO, Jimmy Carter, Chris Dodd, and Steny Hoyer really "gave away the store" to Republican election skulduggery in the "Help America Vote Act". Despite plenty of warnings, Jimmy Carter did not insist on iron-clad national voting standards on the Carter-Ford and Carter-Baker Electoral Reform Commissions. Carter even agreed to Baker's ingenious "Voter ID" proposal, that could strip away 10 percent more Democratic than Republican voters!

There are many tricks in the election fraud book, and IMO national standards have to anticipate most of them and incorporate audit procedures for every election. For instance, just the number of items on a ballot can swing elections by keeping each voter in the booth so long that hundreds of others behind them abandon their places on long lines in underequipped urban precincts. Some jurisdictions have put close to 100 decision items on one ballot!

IMO we need a national system of "preview" optical scan machines that give voters feedback on ballot validity and accuracy. Further, each voter should be able to revise and resubmit their ballots on the basis of such feedback BEFORE they leave the polling place.

And if there are local races and referenda to be decided, IMO they should be separated out on a second paper ballot form for separate scanning. National and statewide offices must be on a separate, simple, uniform statewide ballot that provides a clear paper trail.

IMO it's better to wait for new legislation with national standards than to allow some states to systematize gold-plated DRE election theft and "Voter ID".
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
14.  Dianne Feinstein strikes again.
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Girlfriend ain't up for re-election until 2012. could that be why 2008 isn't a priority?
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Highway61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. Not a Priority??????????????
Can someone tell me what IS a PRIORITY with this bunch? It may not be simple but it is doable. DON'T replace the machines just send technicians to put paper receipts on EVERY machine. An ATM breaks down at the local bank and by God we have someone there to fix it immediately. If they start NOW it CAN be completed by 2008. We have money to spend in IRAQ to spread democracy there while our democracy is being chiseled away right here! I can't stand it!! We voted these "representatives" in Congress to represent US and they are NOT doing their jobs. The people want impeachment...it's off the table. We want accountability...we get executive privilege. We want honest voting...can't be done in time. WHAT?????????? :wtf:
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. NYT distorts news by claiming only election officials and disability concerns are active players
There are real fundamental problems with democracy that would be created by Holt, though, and the NYT needs to print THOSE.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. How long does it take to print paper ballots?
The technology is just so damn daunting! :cry:
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
18. ALRIIIIIGHT! Now we're all set - California will be the next Ohio.
Edited on Fri Jul-20-07 09:59 AM by lynnertic


In fact I'll put money on it.

Any takers? California's the site of the next ahem "questionable" election?



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Get in line. First, Cheney got rid of our Dem gov. Then,
they smeared our Dem Sec of State out of office and put in a Republican who was in love with Diebold.

Thankfully, he lost his election, and now we have a Dem great Sec of State. I wonder what she thinks about this. It's going to make her job much harder.

But, sure -- they've been working on corrupting CA for years now.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. By then we will have lost the presidency and the next Rethug
president won't let the equipment be changed. We're doomed!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. A ballot for every vote. Count all the votes in public. That's ALL they had to say.
Edited on Fri Jul-20-07 05:48 PM by Peace Patriot
But, no, what Feinstein & the DLC were/are into is salvaging the billion dollar electronic voting boondoggle--and corporate control of election results--for the rightwing Bushite corporations who have been 'counting' virtually all our votes under a veil of corporate secrecy since 2004 (80% Diebold/ES&S vote tabulation--and on a more scattered basis since 2002).

They didn't want the grass roots movement--at the state/local level--to open the "trade secret" code to public scrutiny to result in any dirty little secrets getting out (--like the theft of the 2004 election). So a MUST DO for their phony "reform" bill was to pull the secret code entirely under the purview of a presidentially-appointed "commission." That poison pill is what mostly killed the Holt bill. It was an unconscionable provision, a major violation of our right to transparent elections and our right to insist, at the state/local level, on procurement policies and election laws that WILL PRODUCE transparency--that is, vote counting that everyone can see and understand.

It was NEVER THE INTENTION of the Diebold II Congress to reform this Stalinist election system.

"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." --Josef Stalin

That prescription works as well for a fascist/corporatist police state, as it does for a centralized communist police state. Stalin would be quite comfortable with this system--as long as he was the dictator. Shades of Bush.

And we are paying for it now in the full blown establishment of a dictatorship in Washington DC, with this Diebold II Congress giving away the store on Day One: "Impeachment is off the table."

And, on Day Two, ESCALATING the war and larding Bush/Cheney with ANOTHER $100 billion in play money to keep killing Iraqis until they sign over their oil rights.

The sop that they used, to win over the "centrist" election reformers (--who are kind of like the "centrist" re-funders of illegal, unjust, heinous war), was a "paper trail"--admittedly a real ballot, as written (--but who knows what they would have done to that, in the midnight hours?)--but this same bill, Holt 811, left the "trade secret" vote tabulation in place, in all the voting machines and central tabulators, failed to require a significant audit*, and did this in the full knowledge of how difficult it is for ordinary voters and even candidates to get a recount--especially in this new and putrid "culture of secret" that Diebold/ES&S has polluted our election system with. Just try to get election data out of election officials these days. Just try to observe the tabulation computers. You will often meet with every obstruction imaginable. Along with non-transparent vote counting, we have also lost the right to information and access by which we might catch these election thieves in the act.

Elections that are not held in the public venue are not elections. They are tyranny. That's what we have. And if the Democratic leadership in Congress did not, essentially, agree with this country being run as a tyranny, their first act, as a Congress, would have been to rescind the highly corrupt, anti-democratic "Help America Vote for Bush Act" of 2002 (aka, HAVA) and passed a law that said:

1. A ballot for every vote.
2. Count all the votes in public.

Please do not be under the illusion that anything has been "lost" by the death of HR 811. There was no intention of transparency, and anything that could have resulted in transparency would have been removed before the bill before it was passed, or would have combined with the "poison pill" and other conditions to produce more non-transparency.

The political establishment is taking no chances that a 70% American majority against the war will ever be able to elect a president or a congress.

That's what this is all about. Don't buy into the "divide and conquer" tactic that the thousands of real election reform activists who demanded true transparency, and opposed the "poison pill," are responsible for future stolen elections. That's like saying that anti-war activists are responsible for the U.S. "losing" the war on Iraq.

__________

*(Venezuela uses electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE code system--anyone may review the code by which the votes are tabulated--and they handcount FIFTY-FIVE PERCENT of the votes, as a check on machine fraud. In 2004, about a third of the U.S. had no audit AT ALL. Zero. Zilch. Unauditable, unrecountable 'voting.' And even the very best of states had--and still have--only a 1% audit. HR 811 proposed 2% to 10%--very, very inadequate when you are dealing with rightwing Bushite corporations, "trade secret" code, and extremely insecure and insider hackable machines. Furthermore, these same election theft corporations often write the auditing programs. The result of all this is a system that is so obscure and so complicated and so outside the understanding of many voters (requiring high level computer expertise) as to effectively disenfranchise most American voters. If you cannot understand and observe how your vote is counted, you are not participating in an election. The election system is inherently fraudulent. These Bushite machines NEVER should have been put in place without a 100% audit in the first several elections, and substantial audits--like Venezuela's 55%--thereafter. And THAT is why Venezuela has an advocate of the poor as president, and a National Assembly that is representative of the majority of Venzuelans, and we have the unspeakable Mr. Bush, his puppetmaster Mr. Cheney, and yet another toady Congress, this time with a 'D' by its name).
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