Chavez: Critical foreigners to get boot

[Bacchus39]

Source: AP

CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize him or his government while visiting Venezuela will be expelled from the country.


Chavez ordered officials to closely monitor statements made by international figures during their visits to Venezuela — and deport any outspoken critics.

"How long are we going to allow a person — from any country in the world — to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" Chavez asked during his weekly television and radio program.

The Venezuelan leader's statements came after Manuel Espino, the president of Mexico's conservative ruling party, criticized Chavez during a recent pro-democracy forum in Caracas.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070723/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_chavez;_ylt=AqhcnSkWLl2jrTf2TWKy_au3IxIF

[wyldwolf]

1. Yes, let's not question the great "progressive" leader.

[EFerrari]

86. Question him all you want. Oh, and while you're at it,

stop funding the hitmen in Caracas.

Geezus, what more do people need to see a progressive Latin American leader be sabatoged by your government? A head on a platter?

[Popol Vuh]

171. And what do you suppose

would happen if Chavez or another "foreign" leader was here in our country doing the same thing?

Chavez has tolerated more than any other government I've seen. But go ahead and jump on the globalist corporate-fascism wagon.

--

Psychological warfare....

[nick303]

195. You'll recall Chavez's "devil" speech at the UN?

[struggle4progress]

209. I had to reset my outrage meter after Colin Powell's bullshit there in 2002

Powell, you may recall, lied his stinkin head off setting up an unnecessary war. It killed a lot of people. Perhaps you noticed?

Now that's an example of the kind of speech I get upset about

[nick303]

253. Right

But that would be a false dilemma, since this is not an either/or scenario.

[silverojo]

185. About as "progressive" as Hitler

"Chavez" is Spanish for "fascist". :mad:

[EFerrari]

251. After we steal the oil we want in Iraq, we have to do something

about these Latinofascist terrorists.

[superconnected]

191. Bushs bill to arrest people and take assets of those who support the iraq

war, sounds right along the same lines.

Both of these men are scary, but Bush is scarier.

[SOS]

258. Question Chavez

but always ignore the mass murderer of Equatorial Guinea.
And never mention the public torture in Saudi Arabia.
Or the genocide in Burma.
Or the dissidents boiled alive in Uzbekistan.

Countries with oil deals with US oil companies may NEVER be questioned on their torture, murder and genocide.

Venezuala and Iran, on the other hand, must be excoriated daily. No Exxon oil deals there!

[hack89]

2. A little touchy, isn't he? nt

[ohio2007]

3. Paranoia may destroy ya

Are critical citizens next?

16 months left to his 'Rule by decree'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2860970&mesg_id=2861040


...but I'm sure these are only isolated incidents

[Radical Activist]

190. When the CIA backs a coup overthrowing your democratically elected government

then one has good reason to be paranoid.

[ohio2007]

198. Chavez has the right to kick anybody out of his country

not sure how he will turn on his citizens, but you can count on a purge.
..to expose the CIA stooges and throw them in jail

[jefferson_dem]

46. More evidence that "tyranny is on the march" in Venezuela.

Fuck Hugo.

[mogster]

81. Take into consideration 'evidence' about other people ....

Looks like your candidate ended up in the wrong category of people ;-)






Don't automatically believe what the mass media print or report. They are compromised.

[clixtox]

105. I am amazed...

How many apparently long-time posters here on DU can be so negative about Hugo Chavez. He is truly a hero of the regular working and poor folks in Venezuela and throughout the world. Anyone who has been paying attention must realize that this "story" among many others about him are published without context or honesty. He and his constituents are belittled, demonized and marginalized by the rapacious kleptocrats who previously controlled Venezuela and their lap-dog media, which remains in the hands of these capitalists. (Sound familiar?)

How anyone living in the USA could question the democratic aspirations of Chavez while languishing in the fascist "axis of evil" country is running the risk of being accused of being a tripping hypocrite. That so many of these DUers jump on this sort of reportage immediately to castigate a South American hero indicates that their sophistication has a very thin veneer and underneath possibly beats the heart of a greedy pig.

Could all of this anti-Chavez-ism be just excusable ignorance or mindless stupidity? Are there some dupes and reactionary "lurkers/posters" here on DU? Are these folks tools of anti-democratic institutions like our own fascist government, or multi-national corporations such as those in the petroleum industry? These anti-Chavez DUers generally seem to all be posting from the same "playbook" calling Chavez a dictator!

These sentiments would definitely be welcome elsewhere on the net but it is really perplexing that they proliferate and are sometimes accepted without question right here on DU.

I do wonder which potential presidential nominee in 2008 these anti-Chavez folks are for? I doubt that many, or any, Kucinich or Gravel fans would impugn Chavez's character here or anywhere! These anti-Chavez partisans are probably rooting for one of the prospective corporate candidates like, ...well you know who they are!

What a sick situation.

[Mika]

128. You just don't get it. Chavez is..

.. get ready for it.. prepare yourself.. are you ready?.. Chavez is friends with CASTRO (((Gasp))).





;)

[EFerrari]

249. AND Cindy Sheehan!

:rofl:

[redqueen]

242. It's not perplexing at all... not to me.

Look at our 'top tier' candidates with their for-profit 'solutions' to the healthcare crisis.

The so-called left in this country is a JOKE.

[EFerrari]

248. The BushCo media has been poisoning the well for years.

In that respect, it's not so very surprising. You can imagine the uproar when Cindy Sheehan (and a host of other activists from around the world who usually go unmentioned :) ) went to Caracas to attend a conference. Oh, was that a wild night at DU! lol

[msongs]

4. ever heard the old phrase "tinhorn dictator"? nt

[Dr.Phool]

5. Hey Hugo,

I used to like you. You're giving me second thoughts.

[Systematic Chaos]

6. Sadly, I must second that sentiment.

He seems to be in a downward spiral lately. :(

[bluestateguy]

7. Chavez: Suppression of speech, anti-abortion, paranoid...

Hmmmm...Reminds me of someone.

Oh, and Chavez is fat.

[Dr.Phool]

8. You can't call him fat!!!!

Be nice, he's big boned.

[EFerrari]

88. Because no other government regulates the airwaves and

because just because they kidnap you and tell the people you've resigned doesn't mean you can't be paranoid. :crazy:

[thunder rising]

9. I like Chavez

The article referenced is much like these comments; biased against him with assertions and opinions stated without support.

The CIA IS a killing machine and anybody in his position would have plenty of cause to be cautious.

In my books there is only two criteria for a good South American leader:
1. does not turn the military on his own people, and
2. does not steal all the money.

In his defense, I say the same thing applies here in the US. If the State Department thinks a person is going to make political statements against this administration there will be no visa granted. Simple as that.

[Demeter]

11. Maybe We Can Find One of Those Good SA Leaders, Get Him/Her an H1 Visa

Can't find an American President worth hiring....that will take the job!

[nolabels]

10. I'm willing to bet some or a LOT was taken out of context

Sounds more to be a rhetorical diatribe than what was really could or will ever happen. The snotty spoiled cadre in Venezuela that once was, must now be having a hard time adjusting to not being able to call the shots. Frankly after the support AP has given all the anti-democratic for so many years i kind of wonder about anything thats reported from them :shrug:

[bluestateguy]

12. "Yeah, maybe the media mangled the translation. "

That excuse has frequently been used by people here with regard to the nutball in Iran.

The more authoritarian Chavez gets, the fiercer the backlash will eventually be in Venezuela, no matter how popular he may be today, and that could result in a right-wing reactionary dictator taking his place.

[nolabels]

19. Or would that be a puppet from the U.S.?

From the July 2002 issue of World Press Review (VOL. 49, No. 7)

Back, by Popular Demand? How Venezuela's Hugo Chávez Got a Second Chance

Hamburgers, Cured Ham, and Oil

Aram Ruben Aharonian, Proceso (liberal newsmagazine), Mexico City, May 1, 2002

Following the unsuccessful coup d’etat aimed at toppling the constitutional government of Hugo Chávez, a journalist from Spain said last week that “it smells like hamburgers, jabugo (Spanish cured ham), and oil!” Obviously, he knew what he was talking about: the participation of officials from the United States, Spain, and El Salvador in the revolt headed by business leader Pedro Carmona Estanga.
(snip)
(snip)
According to private investigations, one of the coup’s consequences was the privatization of Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PDVSA), turning it over to a U.S. company linked to President George Bush and the Spanish company Repsol; plus the sale of CITGO, the U.S. subsidiary of PDVSA, to Gustavo Cisneros and his partners in the north; as well as an end to the Venezuelan government’s exclusive subsoil rights.
(snip)
(snip)
What was indeed confirmed is that the airplane booked to take Chávez off Orchilla Island and out of the country belonged to Paraguayan banker Víctor Gil (TotalBank). And where was it headed? According to personnel of the airplane registered in the United States, the flight was headed to Puerto Rico, a U.S. territory.

U.S. intervention was to be found not only in “advice” from high government officials in Washington such as Roger Pardo-Maurer (in charge of special operations and low-intensity conflicts in Latin America for the Pentagon), Otto Reich, and/or John Maisto, but also from Lieut. Col. James Rodger, assigned to the Military Attaché Office of the U.S. Embassy in Caracas, who supported the revolt with his presence on the fifth floor of army headquarters, where he advised the generals in the rebellion.
(snip)
http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/581.cfm

The Revolution will not be Televised
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3119073

[Judi Lynn]

143. Outstanding information, well done article. Most people don't know the coup plotters met

in the offices of coup plotter Gustavo Cisneros, Cuban-Venezuelan media owner, and good fishing buddy of George H. W. Bush.

If the right-wing loons knew, they wouldn't care, as they, in their deep sickness, and their diseased moral perspective, do buy the idea the U.S. is entitled to control other countries. That idea is not popular with the general populations of other countries.

Other people would see this as absolute treachery.



Gustavo Cisneros, and his pal.

So glad to see your article, happy to save it for future reference also.

[Posteritatis]

82. Someday some leader someplace is going to say "I intend to eat your children"

I really hope whoever it is doesn't say it in English. The flamewars here over the substance of the harmless, pleasant statement he "really" made will be hilarious.

[SayWhatYo]

87. lol

[EFerrari]

94. Someday, the American public will be told that someone intends

to eat their children and we will make war on that assertion. The ensuing death and destruction will be hilarious.

[EFerrari]

89. Translation: bend over and take it, Hugo, BushCo is coming.

I think not.

[Demeter]

13. Depending On a Translation, Besides

Needs a massive grain of salt and an investigation.

[Bacchus39]

17. translation for you

CARACAS (AFP) - El presidente de Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, pidió a sus ministros que se encarguen de expulsar a los extranjeros que "denigren" a su gobierno o lo llamen "tirano", durante su programa de radio y televisión "Aló, Presidente" de este domingo.

"The president of Ven, Hugo, requested that his officials take charge of expelling foreigners who denigrate his government or who call him a tyrant, during his Alo President television show this Sunday"

Aunque no precisó a quién se refería, Chávez indicó que el sábado le reclamó al canciller Nicolás Maduro y al vicepresidente Jorge Rodríguez, que hicieran algo cuando "venga fulano de tal a decir que hay una dictadura y nosotros no digamos nada. Eso le está prohibido a los extranjeros".

Although he didn't specify to whom he was referring, Chavez indcated that Saturday he demanded his chancellor Nicolas and the Vice President Rodriguez, that they do something when "what's-his-hame comes and says there is a dictator and we don't say anything. That is prohibited for foreigners.


"Ningún extranjero puede venir aquí a arremeter contra nosotros, el que venga hay que sacarlo de este país, no se puede permitir, es cuestión de dignidad nacional", insistió.

"No foreigner can come here and assail against us, he that comes doing such will be removed from this country, its not permited, its a question of national dignity," he insisted.


http://espanol.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/070722/latinoamerica/venezuela_pol__tica

[nolabels]

26. Translation from the translation, Yahoo and AFP are gringos

The company that did the story is probably getting it from the same person even. I know if i were fluent in spanish i sure wouldn't be thinking of things owned by gringos to be the best place to get my news about Latin America :shrug:



Beyond the News

By Mitchell Stephens

(snip) (in the second stanza of the story)
If we don’t do the basic reporting, who will?” journalists counter. Here’s John S. Carroll, former editor of the Los Angeles Times, presenting, to the American Society of Newspaper Editors, this notion of mainstream journalists as the indispensable Prime Movers: “Newspapers dig up the news. Others repackage it.” But the widely held belief that the Web is a parasite that lives off the metro desks and foreign bureaus of beleaguered yet civic-minded newspapers and broadcast news organizations is a bit facile.

For much of their breaking news, Yahoo and AOL often tap the same source as Drudge and WashingtonPost.com: The Associated Press, with Reuters, AFP, and a few others also playing a role. (Most of the early online Chavez reports linked to an AP story.) Nothing said here is meant to imply that the wire services, and whatever cousins of theirs may materialize on the Web, should stop gathering and wholesaling news in bulk.
(snip)
http://cjrarchives.org/issues/2007/1/Stephens.as

[Bacchus39]

45. well, that's what it says

there wasn't much ambiguity over the translation.

[nolabels]

104. Bush says them type of things too but his #s go down, why is that?

Heck maybe a large majority even want a government like Cuba's. Really it's none of the U.S.'s business, it's not really anybodies business unless they live there. There has been lots of uprisings against all kinds of governments in Latin America but how is that anybodies else's business but the people that live there?

The Monroe Doctrine died with Nixon, Reagan and Ford. The current fraud at the helm of U.S. government doesn't have sense enough to pour shit out of boot. A lot of people are hip to a lot things and not just in this country known as the U.S. The D.C. establishment hates Hugo because of his freedom. The can't understand why he won't kiss their ass and they hate that. It's really not hard to understand. Most people rally around their head of government when threatened, Hugo and his people are no different. The more the U.S. government and corporations tries to stick their noses in it the more they lose. My original position that things have been taken out context still stands but should of also had this rejoinder that many people are not understanding the circumstances because of not living there. I think it possible to guess about some it by looking at many sources as possible though.

I wouldn't want to deny the words were said just that words were massaged and word-smithed, but much more even. They were produced in a slanted manner by monied interests in the U.S. and abroad. These people that produce that kind of news and the people who bankroll them mostly have no goodwill to the people there. They just have a lust for the things on the land the Venezuelans are occupying.

It's not really even the words so much but the denied intent behind them. The other countries around the world get that and kowtow to it. Hugo gets it's and calls the bluff and that is why they hate him. They hate him and his country for the freedoms they are producing


70.9% say President's performance "very good, good or average to good!"

VHeadline Reporters: Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez has achieved a 70.9% approval rating after his government decided not to renew a public broadcasting license demanded by opposition-aligned Radio Caracas Television (RCTV) which went off the public air waves on May 27,

According to Venezuelan Seijas y Asociados opinion pollsters the President enjoys massive support from the Venezuelan people who re-elected him to the presidency last year by a 63% margin.

* The Seijas poll conducted June 16 through June 26 questioned 1,200 persons who were asked to rate Chavez' performance as the democratically-elected President of Venezuela ... 70.9% of those polled said the President's performance as "very good, good or average to good."
(snip)
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=74745
http://www.vheadline.com/main.asp

[Bacchus39]

109. apparently those freedoms don't include free speech

Venezuela also tightened the "insult" law just a couple of years ago. It states that you can't publicly defame or insult the president or other government officials. while other countries have recently eliminated these archaic laws, Ven strengthened the punishment. and this applies to Ven citizens.

VHeadline is completely supportive of the Chavez administration. talk about spin. I am much more apt to believe the reporting of the AP, AFP, or the BBC which have links posted on this thread

[nolabels]

120. So if they support the Chavez administration they must be wrong or bad?

Like I was saying that place is their country and i also take it you don't live there either. The stories i have heard is that government officials get challenged on a hourly and daily basis by the citizens. The headline is of international figures being deported of because of they are considered outspoken critics concerning the Venezuela government. That's a far stretch from denying their citizens freedom of speech. This is mostly common sense and what country can you show that forbids such practice?

In your post, is that your opinion where you state

Venezuela also tightened the "insult" law just a couple of years ago. It states that you can't publicly defame or insult the president or other government officials.

or is there some place we should look to back up that assertion?

Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
(in English translation from the original legal text)

(snip)
Article 57: Everyone has the right to express freely his or her thoughts, ideas or opinions orally, in writing or by any other form of expression, and to use for such purpose any means of communication and diffusion, and no censorship shall be established. Anyone making use of this right assumes full responsibility for everything expressed. Anonymity, war propaganda, discriminatory messages or those promoting religious intolerance are not permitted. Censorship restricting the ability of public officials* to report on matters for which they are responsible is prohibited.

Article 58: Communications are free and plural, and involve the duties and responsibilities indicated by law. Everyone has the right to timely, truthful and impartial information, without censorship, in accordance with the principles of this Constitution, as well as the right to reply and corrections when they are directly affected by inaccurate or offensive information. Children* and adolescents have the right to receive adequate information for purposes of their overall development.

Article 59: The State guarantees the freedom of cult and religion. All persons have the right to profess their religious faith and cults, and express their beliefs in private or in public, by teaching and other practices, provided such beliefs are not contrary to moral, good customs and public order. The autonomy and independence of religious confessions and churches is likewise guaranteed, subject only to such limitations as may derive from this Constitution and the law. Father and Mother are entitled to have their sons and daughters receive religious education in accordance with their convictions. No one shall invoke religious beliefs or discipline as a means of evading compliance with law or preventing another person* from exercising his or her rights.
(snip)
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=6831

[Bacchus39]

127. here you go, several links

how does this square with the Constitution do you think?

"In March 2005, amendments to the Criminal Code came into force which extended the scope of Venezuela’s desacato (disrespect) laws, and increased penalties for desacato, criminal defamation, and libel. By broadening its desacato provisions, Venezuela ignored the recommendations of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) and bucked a continent-wide trend toward the repeal of this type of law."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm


"In Venezuela, the administration of President Hugo Chávez tightened its grip on the press in 2005, as parts of the Social Responsibility Law for Radio and Television and amendments to the penal code, expanding the categories of government officials protected by "desacato" (insult) provisions, came into effect."

on the other hand:

"In a positive development, several countries, including Chile, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama, eliminated "desacato" (insult) provisions from their statute books."

http://www.freemedia.at/cms/ipi/freedom_detail.html?ctxid=CH0056&docid=CMS1142450376827


"The new laws adopted by Venezuela, which the OAS's Bertoni has also criticized, say that anyone convicted of "offending" the Venezuelan authorities could go to prison for up to 20 months. Anyone who "gravely offends" the Venezuelan president can incur a penalty of up to 40 months in prison."

http://news.findlaw.com/wash/s/20050706/20050706111125.html

[nolabels]

140. So should the US invade them to free thier people?

(I will get back to the other articles later, got some things to today and my internet link is kind of slow for some reason) The first article blames what has been a systemic problem of corrupt and partisan court system many decades old on administration of President Hugo Chávez. Point being that's like blaming Romans for being the Romans. Hugo didn't make the system and has already attempted to reform it (with limited success)

Has Human Rights Watch Joined Venezuela’s Opposition?
(snip)
A history of bias

It would be nice to think that the HRW report was a slip-up in what is otherwise a virtuous record in HRW’s defense of human rights in Venezuela. However, HRW has shown itself to be biased to an amazing extent with regard to Venezuela under the Chavez government. For example, during the 2002 coup attempt HRW issued a statement on April 12, the day that “transition president” Pedro Carmona issued his decree in which he dissolved the constitution, the legislature, the courts, and just about all other state entities and named himself president. That day HRW merely appealed to the “transition authorities” to behave themselves, but did nothing to condemn the wholesale dissolution of all constitutional guarantees; nor did they demand from the international community to apply the OAS Democratic Charter to isolate Venezuela diplomatically. The current report, however, while not going so far as to call for sanctions, does recommend that certain provisions of the Democratic Charter be applied to Venezuela now. This pattern, of disproportionately strong criticism of the Chavez government compared to both the opposition and to other governments in Latin America, is a pattern that HRW has pursued for quite some time now.<2>
(snip)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1200


I am no fan of the establishment and so can see quite clearly the bigger establishment is trying thump a smaller one. And thanks again for helping me learn more about Venezuela :hi:

[Bacchus39]

155. of course not, what kind of question is that?

Venanalysis is a Chavez mouthpiece. Please, if you question the legitimacy of my links, look at your own first.

the penalties under the "insult" law have been increased under chavez. why??

[eallen]

141. I guess I'll stop supporting organizations like Amnesty International....

No matter what a government does abroad, I'll tell AI and the rest to keep their noses out, because it's nobody's businesses except for those who live there. Civil rights is purely a local matter, right?

:hippie:

[nolabels]

182. Okay, you got me, just seemed that extra governmental people that parade around........

like civilians and or business people who are actually on the take from various other governments or corporations might not have good intentions. The topic in the article is of international figures from places elsewhere. I am still kind of looking for the country that welcomes foreign outspoken critics to come lecture them. Hugo Chavez is trying to erect guidelines that just about every other country has and he is being criticized for it. What is up with that?

Everybody knows full well that Venezuela is a magnet for many things because of wealth in the oil. Maybe banks should just leave vault doors open because everyone is mostly honest too. The debate that a sovereign country cannot control certain aspects of what foreigners do in it is absurd

[knowledgeispwr]

116. Here's an EL PAIS article

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Chavez/ordena/expulsar/extranjeros/criticos/Gobierno/elpepuint/20070722elpepuint_8/Tes

El País is a center-left major paper in Spain. Here are the paragraphs of Chavez's words plus a translation by me:

"Ningún extranjero puede venir aquí a atacarnos. Cualquiera que lo haga será expulsado del país", ha señalado el mandatario en su programa dominical de radio y televisión, Aló Presidente.

"No foreigner can come here to attack us. Anyone who does it will be expelled from the country," has indicated the president in his Sunday radio and telivision program Aló Presidente.

"¿Hasta cuándo vamos a permitir que venga fulano de tal de cualquier país a nuestra casa, a decirnos que aquí hay una dictadura, que el presidente es un tirano, y que nadie haga nada? Eso está prohibido a los extranjeros", ha afirmado el presidente venezolano.

"How long are we going to allow so-and-so from whatever country to come to our house, tell us that there is a dictatorship here, (tell us) that the president is a tyrant, and anyone not do anything (about it)? That is prohibited for foreigners," the Venezuelan president has affirmed.

So there you go. If you can read Spanish, you can read the rest of the article provided at the link.

[nolabels]

186. Out of context, it is a defensive posture that is posed as an attack on foreigners

The bigger worldly institutions have decided it is against the rules for just any country to be sovereign

In a logical sense most any institution, organization or any other structured body with people and resources erect procedures to eliminate disruptor's. I would not be defending the any establishment here just trying poise how the hypocrisy evades reason

Heck even five year olds kick others out of their little clubs when they perceive them as not playing right or fair. Is this really that hard of concept :shrug:

[bbinacan]

14. The boy has gone 'round the bend

as my Grandma used to say. If I owned a second home or a yacht, I'd sell it. Chavez claims that property will be protected. I don't buy it. He is FULL OF SHIT!

[movonne]

15. It might be that he has a bunch of rethugs there trying to cause

trouble...there are sure doing a good job here...take all you get from the media with a very big grain of salt...

[bbinacan]

23. Perhaps you'd like to borrow mine.

:tinfoilhat:

[UTUSN]

16. That means ALL of US usual suspects HERE, contrary to our OTHER HALF *here*!!1 n/t

[struggle4progress]

18. * routinely denies US entry visas to folk who oppose his policies, thus bringing back a tactic that

was very common under Reagan.

Perhaps those who are soooo concerned about this report from Venezuela might want to help the US clean up its act?

[LoZoccolo]

20. "I am not a tyrant so stop saying that!" lol

Oh this is great ha ha ha ha!

I can't imagine what kind of contorted stuff we're gonna see from his fan club here now...

[originalpckelly]

21. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it looks like our fair Chavez has reached dictator puberty.

He's finally starting to take an interest in suppressing dissent, like all the other dictators his age, it just turns out he was a late bloomer.

[LoZoccolo]

41. lol

:thumbsup:

[originalpckelly]

114. Soon, the embarrassing public erections will start, and statues of Chavez will show up all over...

as well as murals devoted to him.

[City67]

22. Power corrupts

absolute power...etc etc.

Im not going to judge but it does look bad.

[Pavulon]

24. Where are his pimps now?

I will not name them. But every time the water got a bit hotter for the boiling froggies. Now that it is clear what he is doing I wonder if people will realize what he is.

[originalpckelly]

25. We should be a little nicer to them, it's far more apt to call them cult members...

than pimps.

For one odd reason or another, these people are members of Chavez's personality cult.

[tammywammy]

31. I was wondering that as well

How could the Chavez fans spin this favorably????

[knowledgeispwr]

223. Look around the thread.

They are saying, among other things, that the words were "taken out of context." I thought the words (in Spanish) were pretty clear. I linked to his words (plus a translation) from an El Pais article elsewhere in the thread. You can't argue mistranslation.

[silverojo]

235. The idol worship of Chavez is sickening

He could be standing over a dead, hacked-up body, with a dripping, bloody axe in his hand, and people would say the scene was "taken out of context".

Nobody wants to admit they were wrong--esp. in the case of Chavez, when they were HORRIBLY wrong.

Just because this guy called Bush the devil doesn't mean he's any less of a devil, himself.

[conspirator]

110. He is the legitimate choice of the people, not corporations.

The people wouldn't be better off with a corporate whore. Look at Peru.

[redqueen]

243. Wow... and you didn't even insult them.

How nice you are!

:hi:

[TheBaldyMan]

196. Proud pimp for Chavez reporting for duty.

Tell me, how do you think Hugo should deal with a foreign RW party leader delivering an incendiary speech to a "pro-democracy" rally. Given the track record of a failed coup and an attempted one, both backed by outside RW governments. Not only that the US is running a "pro-democracy" unit out of the Carcas embassy.

I am very interested finding out your way of handling it.

[struggle4progress]

27. Whoa! Look how excited ya'll got when Australia deported Scott Parkin

for opposing the Iraq war
Protest advice led to US activist's detention

Summary at Sourcewatch

[Pavulon]

28. Take all the chavez stuff as a whole

really look at the totality of it. Then if you can really say he is not consolidating power, you may have a problem. This guy is setting himself for a sweet deal like castro.. Castro holds elections too, right.

[struggle4progress]

34. Has he tortured folk as Bush has? Has he set up a network of secret prisons as Bush did?

Has he claimed the right to detain people with trial as Bush has?

You show me the totality of crimes you think Chavez has committed and explain to me why I should think he warrants much of my attention ...

[originalpckelly]

35. It warrants your attention because the people who support a foreign dictator...

might very well support a domestic dictator, if only they say the lies we want to hear.

[struggle4progress]

39. Venezuela's President Chavez Easily Wins Re-election (December 2006)

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez swept to victory in Sunday's elections and pledged to increase socialist reforms in the South American country.

With 78 percent of voting stations reporting, Chavez had won 61 percent of the vote, while opposition Manuel Rosales trailed at 38 percent. ~snip~

Salas thinks the election reflects two emerging trends: the Venezuelan people's strong support for Chavez, as evidenced by civic participation and peaceful elections, and solidarity in Latin America for "progressive, neo-populist governments" that share a desire toward achieving equality and reducing poverty. Chavez is the fourth Latin American leftist to win a presidential election in the last five weeks. ~snip~

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/latin_america/july-dec06/chavez_12-04.html

[jefferson_dem]

65. Stellar defense. "Viva Hugo. He's not quite as bad as Bush."

:rofl:

The world for Hugo apologists is getting smaller and smaller.

[struggle4progress]

74. Here is the philosophical stance: One should triage human rights issues

according to their severity and also according to one's potential ability to influence the situation.

In comparison with (say) the human rights situation in Colombia, Darfur, or Iraq, Venezuela's problem's rate fairly low on the first scale. Matters associated with one's own government and it's allies rate high on the second scale: thus, US actions rate high on the second scale.

[DuaneBidoux]

132. Exactly! And Bush isn't so bad because Hitler was worse.

[originalpckelly]

139. I've actually debated a couple of freepers who said something to that effect.

It's kind of weird to see the same type of people on our side who'd support a Bush that says the things we like to hear.

[spoony]

147. Excellent slogan for them, lol.

I love it when they use Bush as a measuring stick. It's like defending vomit because it isn't 'quite as bad as' diarrhea.

[originalpckelly]

194. "It's like defending vomit because it isn't 'quite as bad as' diarrhea."

:rofl:

[knowledgeispwr]

222. LOL

That's a great line! I think that's a pretty funny way of putting it!

[David__77]

124. What on earth is wrong with "consolidating power" in a democracy?

Shouldn't Democrats in this country attempt to consolidate their legislative domination? I hope that NO Republican ever gets elected in the future. I would be very pleased if Democrats filled all 100 Senate seats and all 435 House seats. It would indicate a great political improvement in the electorate and would be good for democracy.

[knowledgeispwr]

226. Whoa.

Bush is "consolidating power" and none of us seem to happy about that. Despite what has happened, and the danger that it's in, we still live in a democracy. Many of his power grabs were "democratic" like the Patriot Act. Also, for a more extreme example, Hitler consolidated his power in the framework of a democracy.

On another note, as much as I love democrats as a whole and democratic ideals, the idea of a one party government discomforts me and I can't really see it as good for democracy.

[nolabels]

32. In the U.S., now it's only safe to complain about other nations anyway!

Bush's New Executive Order
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=42112

[LoZoccolo]

42. Because you know there's a huge contingent on DU that heaps praise on the Australian government.

lol

[struggle4progress]

60. You don't complain when Australia does but shriek when Venezuela threatens to

[LoZoccolo]

75. ...riiiiiiiight because there aren't people all over yelling "VIVA AUSTRALIA!" n/t

[struggle4progress]

100. So apparently this is really about something other than free speech

[LoZoccolo]

125. Not completely.

It's about people running around supporting the suppression of free speech.

[endarkenment]

169. but not in australia?

[LoZoccolo]

177. Do you even see my point?

The reason Australia does not come up as a contentious topic here is because there isn't this big contingent of pro-Australians propagandizing like you see here with Chavez. The reason Chavez is being cut down here is because people running around holding him up as a hero.

[knowledgeispwr]

227. "No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver"

I studied in Spain for a semester and love the Spanish language. One of my favorite sayings is No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver which means: There's no worse blind man than one who doesn't want to see. I think that expression applies very well to many of the comments on this thread.

[eridani]

229. If you're so concerned about free speech in Venezuela--

--why not live there long enough to start your own low-power community radio station? "Pirate" radio is 100% legal there.

[redqueen]

246. As has been admitted, this isn't about free speech.

This is a game of name-calling and lame attempts at one-upsmanship.

Frickin pathetic.

[redqueen]

245. Yup... schoolyard BS...

pathetic.

[redqueen]

244. But..but..butt... ... ... COMMIEEEEEEES!

Heeees a DICTATOR!

:rofl:



Next thing you know these people here will be BACKING a coup! :eyes:

[Caution]

29. Even the Chavez-bots are having trouble defending this one.

There is no excuse for a government that actively suppresses speech to this degree.

[LoZoccolo]

44. Yeah but he gave a token amount of free heating oil to poor people!

Why do you value this, this "free speech" over human lives? Because you know Chavez is the only person who could have given out the free oil, lol.

[roody]

80. NOT free, low-cost

[jefferson_dem]

49. Yup. Wonder how the HugoPodPeople will spin this one.

:shrug:

[knowledgeispwr]

228. Maybe they'll consult the Cindinistas for spin tips n/t

[EFerrari]

92. You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

What part of "sedition" is unclear to you? Your Resident won't even let you see returning dead soldiers from his war of choice but CHAVEZ is suppressive?

[Alexander]

165. You apparently think two wrongs make a right.

"What part of "sedition" is unclear to you?"

The fact that "sedition" is all too often twisted and used to mean "anyone who says things I don't like".

For example, the Alien and Sedition Acts didn't really do much to stop legitimate sedition.

"Your Resident won't even let you see returning dead soldiers from his war of choice but CHAVEZ is suppressive?"

Yes, because obviously either Bush or Chavez is suppressive.

There's no way they can both be suppressive in different ways. That's just not possible.

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

175. You have no idea what you're talking about either, do you?

Do you realize that this guy from Mexico who saw fit to lecture Chavez on "democracy" was part of the gang that stole the last Mexican election with BuchCo help?

Christ, get a fact or a clue before you buy into this propaganda.

[tidy_bowl]

30. So there goes free speech in Hugoland....

...so will someone now claim this is just fine and dandy? Suppression of free speech is wrong no matter what the supposed reason.

[Socal31]

33. Oh but wait....

I thought Chavez wasnt going to be like this? LOL @ everyone who defended this guy...

[cigsandcoffee]

36. Maybe we "mouth-breathing, illiterate Chavez-haters" were right all along...

In fact, maybe we never hated him at all, but just correctly pegged him for a power-mad megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur - while others with their heads in the clouds and a chip on their shoulders naively fell for his Christ-like routine.

I'll grant that the man has quite a distance to go before becoming a despot, but one sure can see the baby steps.

[struggle4progress]

37. World-Renowned Irish Civil Rights Leader Bernadette Devlin McAliskey Turned Away at US Border (2003)

World-Renowned Irish Civil Rights Leader Bernadette Devlin Mcaliskey Is Turned Away at the U.S. Border and Deported

Monday, February 24th, 2003

World-renowned Irish civil rights activist Bernadette Devlin McAliskey was refused entry to the US over the weekend, and deported.

She passed through the US immigration office in Dublin just fine. But when she arrived in Chicago, a loudspeaker called out her name. McAliskey says she was surrounded by four immigration officers. One of them told her they had received a fax from their agents in Dublin. The fax called her a "potential or real threat to the United States."

Bernadette Devlin McAliskey is a world-renowned civil rights activist. She was elected to the British Parliament from Northern Ireland in 1969, when she was just 21 years old. She was the youngest British MP in history. ~snip~

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0319240

[cigsandcoffee]

40. Chavez said Bush was Satan while in New York

While I agree that there's an argument for it being true, it certainly didn't help the "dignity" of the United States. He should play by his own rules.

On edit:

I think it's fair to point out that he wasn't deported for it, either.

[struggle4progress]

51. US Ambassador Brownfield regularly denounced Chavez while assigned to Venezuela

Not in just one speech on just one day -- but day after day after day, for years

That was, perhaps, a bit much? Especially since the US had earlier engineered a coup attempt against Chavez in 2002? I'm guessing that if the Venezuelans had engineered a short-lived coup against Bush, the US would have thereafter had absolutely no tolerance for any criticism of Bush by the Venezuelan ambassado

[cigsandcoffee]

54. And this excuses Chavez not living up to his standards how?

It's really quite simple:

Chavez doesn't want foreigners coming on his turf and upsetting his fragile ego - but he has no problem going to the United States and unloading on our President with a childish tirade of freakish insults.

If behaviour like that isn't the hallmark of a petulant bully, I really don't know what is.

[BushOut06]

188. "our" president?

I didn't elect this motherfucker, and he sure as hell doesn't represnt me.

[eridani]

230. Or maybe he's more concerned about being violently overthrown?

That actually did happen temporarily with foreign assisstance in 2002

[pschoeb]

64. No he said it at the UN, which is not US territory

Chavez has never called for the overthrowing of the US government, which is actually what he is saying shouldn't be allowed to be stated by foreigners in his country, not any criticism, but actual threats to the government.

[cigsandcoffee]

66. He said more in Harlem.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2926415#2926577

I'm pretty sure Harlem is in the US.

[pschoeb]

76. Yeah, but he didn't call for the overthrow of the US government, nor was this a public event

his statements weren't actually public, he wasn't making a speech in Harlem, these were his supposed comments to some passerbys while he was touring Harlem, Chavez talks about public speeches in his country that call for it's overthrow. He did suffer for his statements, his Foreign Minister was briefly held in US Custody several days after his speech at the UN, until the UN intervened, and many Venezuelan government officials have been denied entrance to the US, even when they are going to the UN.

[cigsandcoffee]

77. Maybe the many members of the press around him were invisible.

But I doubt it.

I think a PR tour with a press presence does qualify as a public event. As public as you can get, really.

[pschoeb]

79. No, offhand comments on a street to passerbys are not considred public expressions

He did actually make a public announcement in Harlem, but this was not in that. There couldn't have been that much press as only AFP reported it. What's funny is the many members of the Democratic Party of the US told Chavez about his UN speech that

"You don't come into my country; you don't come into my congressional district and you don't condemn my president," Rep. Charles Rangel, D-New York

"If there's any criticism of President Bush, it should be restricted to Americans, whether they voted for him or not," Rangel said at a Washington news conference.

"I just want to make it abundantly clear to Hugo Chavez or any other president: Don't come to the United States and think, because we have problems with our president, that any foreigner can come to our country and not think that Americans do not feel offended when you offend our chief of state," Rangel said.

"Hugo Chavez abused the privilege that he had speaking at the United Nations," Pelosi said. "In doing so, in the manner which he characterized the president, he demeaned himself and demeaned Venezuela."


Personally I think these Democratic Party members are wrong, The UN is not the US, and people attending it have no reason to speak nicely about us, as the US has certainly derided Chavez and Venezuela in the UN, let alone other countries and their heads of state. Personally with attitudes like the Democratic Party has about UN speeches, it seems like a good idea to move the UN headquarters to some place where the inhabitants don't believe it belongs to them.

[roody]

83. Fuck Rangel. Hugo was right on.

[David__77]

121. The UN is not the same as the US; the US DOES prohibit some from going to UN.

The US has denied many individuals visas for the purpose of attending UN meetings. But the UN is international territory, so the analogy is off.

[devilgrrl]

126. What's not true about the statement?

He's just calling a spade a spade.

[endarkenment]

150. At the UN which is not actually 'in New York'

as it has special territoriality. But that is a mere detail.

[LoZoccolo]

43. Two Wrongs Make A Right (2004)

lol

[struggle4progress]

47. No. But why should I fret about Chavez when my OWN government does this?

[cigsandcoffee]

50. Does what? Allows Chavez to lambast our President* from NY?

With a diatribe of exotic personal insults?

By his own standards, Chavez should not have been surprised if Bush petulantly had him deported. Would you have defended Bush in that case?

I'm betting not.




*on paper, it's true

[struggle4progress]

52. If you can't properly follow a topic down a subthread, I can't help you

[cigsandcoffee]

55. Yeah, I'll bet. In your shoes, I couldn't defend that either. n/t

[rinsd]

134. LOL. It never fails to make me laugh when Chavistas excuse Chavez with Bush did it too!

[knowledgeispwr]

232. It's the same thing with Ahmadinejad sometimes...

Some on here will say we can't criticize him because Bush/the US is worse. I think most, if not all, DUers are aware of the many problems that we have here in the USA; it's not like we're sitting on high horses insulting/criticizing other nations/leaders and acting like our own situation is perfect. If anything, being so aware of our problems might put us in a better position to see worrisome things elsewhere with a realistic perspective compared to people who can't/refuse to see our own problems.

[struggle4progress]

38. Cat Stevens deported amid terrorism fears (2004)

Last Update: Thursday, September 23, 2004. 12:35pm (AEST)

Former pop singer Cat Stevens has been deported to Britain after United States officials said his activities could be "linked to terrorism" and his name was put on a US no-fly list.

Arab-Americans and Muslims in Britain voiced outrage over the treatment of Stevens, who changed his name to Yusuf Islam when he shelved his singing and song writing career and became a Muslim almost three decades ago.

He was seen being escorted by US security officials onto a United Airlines flight at Dulles International Airport bound for London's Heathrow Airport on Wednesday evening. ~snip~

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200409/s1205439.htm

[cigsandcoffee]

48. While touring Harlem, Chavez called Bush "an alcoholic and a sick man"

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=060921181401.4gh4wubb&show_article=1

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez launched a new personal attack against President George W. Bush, calling the US leader an "alcoholic" and a "sick man" during a tour of the New York district of Harlem.
Speaking while walking in a Harlem street, Chavez told a group of passers-by: "Bush is an alcoholic, a sick man with a lot of hang-ups."

"He walks like John Wayne," declared the left-wing Venezuelan leader. "He doesn't know anything about politics, he got there because of Daddy." Bush's father, George Bush, was also a US president.

In a controversial speech before the UN General Assembly on Wednesday, Chavez called Bush "the devil" and "a tyrant."

Chavez went to Harlem to announce the expansion of a programme to send cheap Venezuelan oil to poor families in New York.

LOL

[struggle4progress]

56. Look up the prior history of Ambassador Brownfield's years of attacks on Chavez

[cigsandcoffee]

61. And that will help me understand Chavez's petulant tirade in NY how?

I don't need to look up what's plain as day: Chavez is a weak-egoed bully and flagrant hypocrite.

[struggle4progress]

67. Oooh! Chavez bad-mouthing Bush really upset you!

[cigsandcoffee]

69. Not remotely. I love seeing Bush bashed, albeit with a bit more cleverness...

...than Chavez pulled off - the sort that Molly Ivins was wonderful with, for instance.

No, what gets under my skin me is the desperate and hypocritical defense of blossoming despot.

[EFerrari]

98. Could you please enumerate the qualities or actions that make

Chavez a despot? I don't think he's the Second Coming but, surely you are aware that BushCo is at war with him and has the Noise Machine going full tilt boogey?

[arikara]

144. All of which is true

Not particularly tactful but certainly true. Who can blame Chavez for disliking Bush after that coup attempt and the ongoing US backed attempts to discredit and oust him. Other leaders in Chavez' position knuckeled under to the US and became nonentities. Chavez hasn't given way and he's consolidating his power. I sure don't blame him.

[olddad56]

53. Chavez is probably a CIA plant. Busy creating a need for us to 'save' Venezuela

[EFerrari]

93. Venezuela doesn't need to be saved. And no, Chavez is not CIA

He's trying to survive CIA. Your tax dollars at work.

[olddad56]

113. You never know anymore.

[pschoeb]

57. What bullshit, this is standard practice and law in most countries

Chavez isn't saying any criticism, but criticisms that call for overthrowing the government, something that has been illegal in the US for a very long time.

This was in reference to Manuel Espino, the President of the current ruling National Action Party of Mexico, who has threatened to take "any necessary action" to oust the current Venezuelan government. Considering the strong linkage that PAN(National Action Party) has to the Christian Democrat Organization of America (ODCA), whose meeting he was speaking at in Caracas and who he is Director of, in which the parties that attempted the coup in 2002 also belong, this is not an idle threat either.

[cigsandcoffee]

59. Self-delete

[Matilda]

58. If I visited the United States,

and publicly criticised G.W. Bush, I suspect I'd be asked to get on the next plane out.

[cigsandcoffee]

62. Sure, unless you were Hugo Chavez

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2926415&mesg_id=2926577

[EFerrari]

96. And that's his real sin. He's saying the emperor is buck naked

and organizing South America to be independent from American corporate predators.

:)

[struggle4progress]

63. Some criticisms of Bush policy in this country may land you on the no-fly list

No-fly blacklist snares political activists
Alan Gathright, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, September 27, 2002
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/09/27/MN181034.DTL

[bluestateguy]

129. Right, and that would be dead wrong

Do you really want to resort to a "Bush does it too" defense?

[rinsd]

136. Bingo! The Bush does it too defense!

[Matilda]

197. Not Bush - pretty well every leader everywhere.

Nobody likes outsiders who come to their country and criticize - even ordinary people are likely to
respond with "why don't you leave then?"

In the case of Chavez, there is another side - the fact that the U.S. has been actively plotting
to bring him down for years.

[struggle4progress]

68. One Visa Problem Costs a Festival Two Filmmakers (2002)

From the October 1, 2002 New York Times
One Visa Problem Costs a Festival Two Filmmakers
By Celestine Bohlen

The internationally acclaimed Iranian film director Abbas Kiarostami, who won the Palme d'Or at Cannes in 1997 for "A Taste of Cherry," was unable to get a United States visa in time to attend the premiere of his new film, "Ten," at the New York Film Festival last Saturday, prompting his friend and fellow director Aki Kaurismaki of Finland to boycott the festival in protest.

"If international cultural exchange is prevented, what is left?" asked Mr. Kaurismaki, whose new film "The Man Without a Past" will be shown at this year's festival. "The exchange of arms?" ~snip~

After news of Mr. Kiarostami's visa problems circulated in Europe, Mr. Kaurismaki announced that he would stay away from the festival as a gesture of solidarity. In a prepared statement, he wrote, "Not with anger (which has never brought anything good) but with deep sorrow" he had learned that the Iranian director was refused a visa because of his citizenship.

If the United States authorities do not want "an Iranian, they will hardly have any use for a Finn, either," he wrote. "We do not even have the oil." ~snip~

http://www.hrw.org/iff/2002/kiarostami.html

[struggle4progress]

70. Denied a visa to attend the Grammy Awards, in which he’s a nominee: Buena Vista Social Club

musician Ibrahim Ferrer. And five colleagues. ~snip~

http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/004703.html

[EFerrari]

90. OMG! I didn't know this! That's my all time favorite DVD.

What @ssholes!

[struggle4progress]

71. Political Scientist denied entry into United States

Political Scientist denied entry into United States

27 October 2006 | Case number: us0610_pah

Issues:

Freedom from arbitrary arrest and detention; Freedom of
association and assembly; Right to travel


Facts of the Case

On October 21st, Professor Adam Habib, Executive Director of the
Democracy and Governance Research Programme of the Human Sciences
Research Council of South Africa, attempted to enter the United States
via JFK International Airport in order to meet with officers from
multiple organizations, including the Social Science Research Council,
Columbia University, the National Institutes of Health, the World Bank,
the Carnegie Foundation, and the Gates Foundation.

At that airport, Professor Habib was escorted to a holding room and
questioned by U.S. border agents on his views on terrorism. He was
detained for seven hours, his existing visa was revoked, and he was
subsequently deported to South Africa - an armed guard escorted him to
his return flight to Joahannesburg. No explanation of the reason that
his visa was revoked was given by the U.S. Government.

Professor Adam Habib obtained his Ph.D. in Political Science in the
United States, from the City University of New York. Since September
11th, 2001, he has visited the United States six times without incident.
Professor Habib has already accepted an invitation to speak at a 2007
meeting sponsored by the American Sociological Association, to be held
in New York City, but no longer has a valid visa to enter the United States. ~snip~

http://listserv.aaas.org/pipermail/aaashran/2006-November/000006.html

[struggle4progress]

72. Groups Decry Muslim Scholar's Visa Denial

Campus Watch
Middle East studies in the News

* From survey: University of Notre Dame
* From survey: American Association of University Professors

Groups Decry Muslim Scholar's Visa Denial
by Associated Press
New York Times
September 17, 2004

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Muslim-Scholar-Visa.html?pagewanted=print&position=

INDIANAPOLIS -- Scholars and critics worldwide are demanding that the U.S. government explain why it revoked the work visa of a Muslim scholar hired at the University of Notre Dame, saying the action threatens academic freedoms.

But few answers are forthcoming from the Department of Homeland Security, which cited security concerns when it barred Tariq Ramadan from entering the country.

That silence has sparked protests from at least four U.S. scholars' groups, led a United Nations-sponsored institution to issue an academic freedom alert and inspired appeals from Jewish organizations. ~snip~

"It does suggest ... foreign scholars may be scrutinized more carefully and may be denied entry on the basis of something less than overt terrorist activity or association," said O'Neil, whose group has written Secretary of State Colin Powell and Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to protest the decision. ~snip~

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1296

[struggle4progress]

73. Richard Tomlinson Denied Visa (2002)

22 February 2002

Richard Tomlinson, formerly an MI6 officer, is author of The Big Breach, an account of his experiences in the Secret Intelligence Service and the agency's years-long attempts to prevent publication of his book. The book was eventually published in Russia, in print and in digital form on the Web, and then in the UK. Subsequently MI6 obtained a court order prohibiting Mr. Tomlinson from receiving payment from sales of the book. The US and a number of other nations complied with Britain's request to ban publication, and the book remains unpublished in print form in the US. Mr. Tomlinson currently lives in Italy. ~snip~

Dear US Embassy,

This inquires about your recent denial of issuance of a visa to Mr. Richard Tomlinson, as described in the denial message below.

We had eagerly anticipated Mr. Tomlinson's visit in the US for an address to a public forum on First Amendment issues, in particular freedom of speech and the press.

We would appreciate learning from you more specifically the grounds for denying him a visa, and what we may do for you to reconsider the denial. If this is a matter we should pursue with Immigration and Naturalization Service, we would be grateful if you would direct us to the INS party or office handling Mr. Tomlinson's visa application. ~snip~

http://cryptome.org/tomlinson-ban.htm

[David__77]

123. I respect your research, but most anti-Chavistas don't care.

They're not about to be swayed by concrete facts. They have bought the McCarthyite red-baiting just like many in the labor movement and Democratic Party bought into the McCarthyite line on Vietnam in the 1960's.

[rinsd]

137. Yet again, the Bush does it too defense is weak.

Unless you are admitting that St. Chavez is Bush like.

[Bacchus39]

201. or maybe they're just fine with the policy as well

n/t

[paulk]

160. are you trying to say, in this post and your similar ones,

that if the Bush administration does this sort of thing, then it's alright for Chavez to do it also?

is that your point?

[struggle4progress]

203. Actually, I want a foreign policy based on human rights. But our history gives US

little credibility, and our current practice gives us none.

In the present context, proclamations of "our deep concern" for human rights issues will only meet with scorn at our hypocrisy. It is ridiculous to think that Latin America should take US seriously, when (say) we denounce any problems in Venezuela, while we have been arming the death squad government of neighboring Colombia for decades.

Beyond an abstract philosophy of human rights, I subscribe to a political theory that requires me to concentrate some political energy dealing with the abuses of my own government and its client states, not only because those abuses are often grave but also because that is where I have the greatest chance of making a difference.

There are important differences between the tactics for working to end human rights abuses (on the one hand) by one's own government and its allies and (on the other hand) by countries with whom the US has less cordial relations. The most important difference is this: when working to promote human rights in a "less friendly" context, it is critical to proceed in a manner which does not create a pretext for ignoring the plea.

[mogster]

78. First rule: Check if it's true

All data regarding Chavez and Ahmadinejad should be put through the 'wait and see' filter, as the mass media (and AP is {i]very biased in this respect) will forward plain lies about what these people has said. One may or may not like Ahmadinejad, but he has been misinterpreted in the past, there are several examples. As for Chavez, I'll wait until people starts getting expelled before I make up my mind about this ;-)

[EFerrari]

85. Apparently, Mr. Chavez is fighting back against BushCo.

Good for him.

Hey, mogster, did you ever see Greg Palast's report, "Finding Bolivar's Heir"? Greg exposed a US backed propaganda machine, ensconced in Caracas, bent on taking Chavez out. What a surprise, eh?

Kick the shills out, Mr. Chavez. If the Russian ambassador came to Los Angeles and described you as a dictator and insinuated we should remove you from power, how long would his visit last?

"Chavez bots"

:rofl:

[tom_paine]

84. Uh-oh. Chavez is making me wonder about him worse every day

He is behaving consistent with tyranny, also, it seems.

[EFerrari]

91. Yeah -- he's defending himself from defamation! Junior

doesn't even want to SEE protestors. Can we spell "double standard"?

[LoZoccolo]

95. Will you step back and take a look at yourself?

We can all see you, and what you are posting. Can you?

[EFerrari]

97. I have facts in hand. What do you have besides personal attacks?

Listening!

[Demeter]

111. I'm on Your Side, and Chavez's, sfexpat2000

I don't know: what is it with the Hugo bashing in the absence of anything but words through 3rd parties and a translator? Are there now Democratic dittoheads, incapable of moderation and critical thinking skills, posting on this site? Honestly, I've seen posts where I wonder if the abusive can even read properly. The Ignore button is getting a workout again.

[EFerrari]

130. Hi, Demeter. The media blitz against Chavez has been cranked up

a notch over the summer. It's strange to me that so many here buy in.

[Demeter]

133. Cheney's Blood Pressure Acting Up, No Doubt

There's nothing like enlightened competence to threaten the Dicktator.

[struggle4progress]

99. Remember this one? Arrested for wearing homemade anti-Bush T-shirts?

~snip~ Jeff Rank, 29, who is a registered Republican, and his wife Nicole, 30, had never engaged in political protest in the past, and said that they had no intention to disrupt the president's visit. The Ranks obtained tickets for the event and were admitted to the Capitol grounds without any problems, but drew attention when they removed their outer garments to display t-shirts bearing the international "no" symbol (a circle with a diagonal line across it) superimposed over the word "Bush."

Although the couple stood peacefully on the public grounds with the rest of the audience, two men believed to be working for the Secret Service or White House approached the Ranks and demanded that they remove or cover their t-shirts. When the couple refused, the officials instructed city police to arrest Jeff and Nicole, causing them to be removed from the Capitol grounds in handcuffs, jailed for one to two hours and charged with trespassing. Nicole Rank was also temporarily suspended from her work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

"We wanted to see the president speak and express our disagreement in what little way we could," said Nicole Rank, who is originally from Corpus Christi, Texas but was assigned to work on a FEMA flood relief project in West Virginia. "We never imagined that we would end up in jail because of a homemade t-shirt." ~snip~

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/11462prs20040914.html

[EFerrari]

101. There was a thread last week in GD and the OP was a WH memo

on how to protect BubbleBoy from protestors. Damn, I didn't bookmark it but it was everything we already deduced. Send out advance teams, screen the fake townhalls, free speech pens, the whole nine yards.

[struggle4progress]

102. White House Policy Illegally Silences Americans Critical of Bush

The American Civil Liberties Union filed a federal lawsuit against Gregory Jenkins, a former high-level White House staffer who enacted a policy that unlawfully excluded individuals perceived to be critical of the administration from public events where President Bush was present. The policy is laid out in an October 2002 “Presidential Advance Manual” obtained by the ACLU.

The ACLU filed today’s lawsuit, Rank v. Jenkins, after obtaining a heavily redacted version of the Presidential Advance Manual from the Justice Department. This manual is the Bush administration’s guide for planning presidential events around the country, and it repeatedly instructs organizers about “the best method for preventing demonstrators,” “deterring potential protestors from attending events,” “designat a protest area . . . preferably not in view of the event site or motorcade route,” and the like.

The lawsuit names as plaintiffs Jeff and Nicole Rank, who were arrested at a Fourth of July presidential appearance at the West Virginia State Capitol because they were wearing T-shirts critical of the president, and Alex Young and Leslie Weise, Denver residents who were thrown out of a town hall meeting with President Bush because they had an anti-war bumper sticker on their car. ~snip~

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/silenced.html

[EFerrari]

103. Ha! Thanks! Bookmarking!

lol

[Forkboy]

131. Damn,I've wanted to say that very thing to you for years now.

[originalpckelly]

115. How many protesters does Chavez have to see?

And I thought we were working against Junior's suppression of dissent, of course maybe that's just us Democrat-types doing that, and not you Chavez-types trying to justify the actions of a dictator.

[endarkenment]

153. There were large anti-Chavez demonstrations recently

over the loss of RCTV's license, remember?

[originalpckelly]

178. And there have been large anti-war demonstrations here that Bush ignored.

How many pro-RCTV demonstrators did Chavez see?

[endarkenment]

238. I can't see into Hugo's mind. Not can you.

However the point is that you all keep trying to paint Chavez as a totalitarian marxist and that just runs headfirst into facts you cannot explain, like huge anti-chavez demonstrations, like popular recall of the president, like a robust free press, like open and fair elections that are internationally monitored and that are far less corrupt and less vulnerable to corruption than our own questionable electoral process. Oh the horrors of diverting oil revenue out of the hands of billionaires and into schools, roads, hospitals, jobs and housing! You just can't abide it. Your fear and loathing of democratic socialism is palpable.

[EFerrari]

192. There were bigger pro Chavez demonstrations but they weren't

reported here. Does this sound familiar?

[Socal31]

106. If this was law in the US, 90% of DU would be deported.

Which place would I rather be.....?

[dipsydoodle]

108. For that to be so

90% of Duers woulld need to be both foreign and in the USA.

Is that a likely event ?

[Demeter]

112. I FEEL like a foreigner

This isn't the country I was born in.

[struggle4progress]

199. PATRIOT II contained provisions for stripping citizenship from native-born Americans

Fortunately, it did not pass, but in fact the Bush Administration contemplated exactly what you are describing


Patriot II's Attack on Citizenship
By JOANNE MARINER
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003

~snip~ Among Patriot II's most worrying provisions are those affecting citizenship. Section 501 of the bill, deceptively titled "Expatriation of Terrorists," would provide for the presumptive denationalization of American citizens who support the activities of any organization that the executive branch has deemed "terrorist." While it is already illegal to provide material support to such groups, even for their lawful activities, such support is considered grounds only for criminal prosecution, not for the loss of citizenship. ~snip~

It may be, in fact, that Patriot II's citizenship-stripping provision is the Bush Administration's imaginative response to the criticism it has faced for its treatment of Jose Padilla and Yaser Hamdi. Padilla and Hamdi, as you'll recall, are the two American citizens that the government currently holds in incommunicado detention as "enemy combatants." Although there are over 600 foreign citizens similarly detained at the U.S. naval base on Guantanamo Bay, there has been far more public outcry about the detention of Padilla and Hamdi than about all the other detainees combined.

The government would no doubt prefer that Padilla and Hamdi had no claim to U.S. citizenship. But to give the government the power to pick and choose among its citizens would reflect an unconstitutional - one might even say un-American - understanding of citizenship.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20030303.html

[Megahurtz]

148. I Wouldn't Exactly Call

chatting anonymously on the internet "Public" Criticism.

[endarkenment]

154. Is it the law in venezuela?

Are we all foreigners here?

[dipsydoodle]

107. BBC News link

How long are we going to allow a person - from any country in the world - to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" Mr Chavez said during his "Hello, President" broadcast on Sunday.

"It cannot be allowed - it is a question of national dignity," he said.
>
Mr Chavez was re-elected to a third term last year with support from the millions of impoverished Venezuelans who back his social development policies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6911246.stm

[junior college]

117. Chavez is an angel

compared to the vicious assholes that used to run Venezuela. He's practically Mother Teresa in comparison.

[EFerrari]

149. And the @sshole that was criticizing him helped steal the last election

in Mexico -- with the help of our government. Remember the protests?

[Bo]

118. HUGO CHAVEZ WILL BE EL PRESIDENTE UNTIL 2030 at least.

No one is getting this guy out of there. EVER. I laugh at people on DU when they say he is not a dictator.

[David__77]

122. I hope so. I hope the people of Venezuela continuously reelect him.

He has a democratic mandate the likes of which has rarely been seen in this country. I think it would be a good and healthy thing for Venezuela were he to continue in the presidency. I hope his model is followed by developing countries in general.

[David__77]

119. There is no "right" to interfere in another sovereign nation's political sphere.

Certainly not on said country's soil. The principle of national sovereignty is an important deterrent to war and aggression. Venezuela is well within its rights to implement this policy. Not only that, but it is long past due - the US and its helpers have been working round the clock for years to destabilize Venezuela's new democracy. That democracy is for Venezuelans, not for foreign subversives.

[EFerrari]

142. What's really ironic is the leader of the party THAT STOLE THE ELECTION

in Mexico with BushCo support is lecturing Chavez about "democracy". These criminals have no shame at all and some DUers eat it with a spoon.

[nick303]

202. A lost election is not a stolen one

The stories concerning the "stealing" of the Mexican election were largely debunked.

[EFerrari]

224. Bull.

[nick303]

255. Sorry, I'll try to be more respectful of people's religious beliefs

going forward

[K8-EEE]

135. "Anybody who calls me a dictator gets deported!"

Uh, nothing like proving the point!

[originalpckelly]

138. I mean, isn't that just the most ironic policy in the entire world?

"I'm not a dictator, so I'm gonna act like one and expel foreigners who call me one!"

It almost sounds like Hugo and Arbusto have been e-mailing each other with dictator tips.

[Posteritatis]

145. Now, now, it doesn't count until he starts having them killed! (nt)

[endarkenment]

158. In this case it doesn't count until people are deported.

So has anyone actually been deported?

[K8-EEE]

207. Why would he threaten deportation just for criticism....?

Of course it's WORSE if he actually goes through with it, but that's uncool. One party rule sucks.

[Judi Lynn]

213. Might be a good idea to read the article so you understand what was written.

Proceeding without taking the time to grasp the facts is a shortcoming many right-wing posters share, and a flaw which makes the spinners' jobs easy.

Take the time to understand the material first.

[K8-EEE]

214. Sorry I can't read the 20,000 articles a day posted here in their entirety

Is the quote the OP has up correct -- that foreigners shouldn't be able to call him a dictator?

Are you for deporting foreigners from the US that criticize GWB? I'm not....

Since you have read the whole article, what part of it makes that statement OK?

[Judi Lynn]

216. Re: your remark "One party rule sucks."

It has never been suggested Venezuela should have one party. That's a conclusion a few people assumed who do have time to comment, but no time to be familiar with the facts.

If you refer to "one party rule" you need to be sure it's based in reality.

[K8-EEE]

221. OK lets say there's lots of parties, you think foreigners should be

deported for voicing disapproval of Chavez (or Bush for that matter?)

[struggle4progress]

233. Venezuela expels US naval 'spy'

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says he is expelling a US official accused of spying with Venezuelan officers.

The naval attache at the US embassy, John Correa, would be forced to "leave immediately", Mr Chavez said in a speech to mark seven years in power.

US officials said the charges were baseless and Captain Correa had left for medical treatment and a holiday. ~snip~

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4675572.stm

[endarkenment]

240. Oh no! Now they are expelling spies!

We must invade!

[struggle4progress]

234. Venezuela deports 16 Colombian in assassination attempt case

18 Aug 05

Venezuela deported on Wednesday 16 Colombians who were charged with belonging to a paramilitary force planning to assassinate President Hugo Chavez.

The 16 deportees, arrested in Caracas in May 24, were among a group of 33 Colombians who decided to become witnesses in return for immunity from prosecution.

Dario Angarita, Colombian consul in Caracas, said on Wednesday the group was never charged, and received special protection from the authorities.

The 16 Colombians deported Wednesday were allowed to leave Venezuela because of their cooperation with authorities. The other 17 members of the 33 who entered the special witnesses program arestill being held under special circumstances. ~snip~

http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/colombia/doc/deports.html

[endarkenment]

239. Well that does it! Now they are deporting assassins!

How dare they?

[EFerrari]

250. LOL!

:hi:

[bvar22]

146. I'll wait and see.

Every country in the World has laws to prevent foreign financed agents from attempting to overthrow the legal government.

It is a known that the bush* administration is attempting to do this directly, and through their right wing puppets in Columbia. Venezuela has a duty to protect themselves and their government from the well financed attacks on their democracy.

Chavez has a history of being tolerant of criticism, even seems to delight in responding to such criticisms...only one of the things that has made him wildly popular with the vast majority of South Americans.

Expelling foreign agents from one's own country is laudable. They would be executed in most countries.
Expelling anyone critical of the President is something else, and would be a cause of concern.

I have traveled and worked in several South American countries including Venezuela. It would be incredibly RUDE (not to mention incredibly STUPID) to publicly criticize the President of a country one is a guest in, especially a president as popular a Chavez.

[EFerrari]

152. Unless you were trying to depose him because he won't fork over

his nations' oil.

[endarkenment]

151. So is there a new law in Venezuela?

Or did Chavez simply state his opinion?

[Bacchus39]

156. he directed his ministers to be sure foreigners are expelled

who criticize him.

[endarkenment]

157. So this requires a new law, or is it completely within existing law?

If Chavez is creating new laws by merely speaking words to his ministers, that would be dictatorial. If in fact existing Venezuelan laws restrict the free speech of foreign visitors, or allow, as our laws do, for persons to be deported for a variety of reasons that may in fact be completely political in nature, then perhaps Chavez is merely reacting to the bad form shown by the Mexican president in coming to his country and insulting Venezuela and its government.

[Bacchus39]

159. he has already assumed powers by decree, is that dictatorial?

when does the line get crossed?

[endarkenment]

164. He didn't assume anything.

The legislature, as it has done many times in the past for other presidents, granted Chavez limited power to rule by decree within specific constraints of scope and time. But your post indicates that your intention is to paint the Venezuealan government as totalitarian and dictatorial regardless of the actual facts.

The line gets crossed when venezuela ceases to be a democratic republic.

[Bacchus39]

162. he has already directed his ministers to expell foreigners

do you understand that? do you think that he is going to wait and get a "law" passed? this is a guy who is ruling by decree right now.

[endarkenment]

168. I understand that he said he did that.

What I do not know is if a) this has actually happened (foreigners have been expelled); b) it is against or within current existing venezuelan law.

[LanternWaste]

161. And therein lies the true meat....

And therein lies the true meat....

One must wonder if the truly bizarre things Bush has said in the past are looked at by non-Americans as part and parcel of American law, and if so-- God help us.

[rinsd]

163. He's been issued power to rule by decree.

In addition what does it matter?

WTF is a head of state doing threatening people who criticize him?

People flipped out when Ari Fliescher said "people have to watch what they say".

Chavez threatens to deport foreign critics and the best Chavista can do is put up examples of BUSH doing the same.

[endarkenment]

167. limited power within specific areas and for a limited time

and issued by the venezuelan parliament and subject to withdrawal at any time, plus the president can be removed from office by referendum at any time. Some odd sort of dictatorship that is. You might make a better case that this is 'mob rule' by the vast majority of the poor against the elites, but I suspect you don't actually want to make that argument.

[Bacchus39]

170. probationary dictatorial powers, try it out for a while and keep it

if you like it.

[endarkenment]

174. you are not even trying to associate facts with your argument.

You need to research the history of the presidential decree in venezuela. It is not probationary dictatorship. As I pointed out and as you have of course ignored, Chavez remains constrained by the constitution, by parliament and by the people, who can reject his policies, remove his limited decree powers, and remove him from office if that is the democratic will. We here do not have anywhere near the level of democracy in venezuela.

[eridani]

231. So, why aren't you whining about Alan Garcia in Peru?

He's been granted similar powers. Whenever the MSM rings the anti-Chavez bell, the sheep start slobbering on demand.

[rinsd]

180. Ahh yes the valuable check and balance the VA Parliment.

Did he re-write the Constitution on term limits yet?

[Bacchus39]

181. that's the next step

n/t

[eridani]

256. But you aren't worried about Peru. Why not?

Alan Garcia has identical powers there.

[YankmeCrankme]

166. did the anti Chavez crowd even read the article?

It's obvious anti Chavez bias aside, it talked about constitution reform that protects property owner rights, it talked about reducing governmental salaries so that they aren't excessive compared to the average Venezuelan and it talked about the risk of assassination by the CIA. All of those obviously point towards concentration of powers toward a dictatorship. NOT

The only thing remotely related is the deportation statement and when you factor in that it was a foreign national criticizing the government and Chavez at a pro-democracy rally it makes some sense. Which is highly ironic for the anti-Chavez crowd. He didn't crack down on the pro-democracy rally...no, no, no that would have been actual censorship and oppression more in line with dictator, but he felt it was not in his country's interest to allow foreign nationals to publicly speak out against the country, its government and its president. Especially foreign nationals with strong ties to the US who he has been having an on-going confrontation with and is leery of their motives since they backed a right wing coup against him. Is it any wonder?

[Andrushka]

236. Thank You!!

At least there are some people here without their hands up to their ears shouting "Chavez is a dictator lalalalala don't want to hear youuuuuu! lalalalala!"

[killbotfactory]

254. And let's consider what gets passed off as "criticism" of Venezuela and Chavez

Like Pat Robertson openly calling for his assassination.

[bvar22]

172. Just an observation:

Has anyone else noticed that the most virulent Chavez haters, the ones who support the USA backed Corporate overthrow of the democratically elected Venezualen president, are also most vocal supporters for Hillary on DU?

I wonder if there is a relationship....or mere coincidence.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Alexander]

173. I don't like Chavez or Hillary...

What does that make me? :shrug:

[bvar22]

176. I don't recognize your screen name as one of the

"most virulent Chavez haters" or as one of the "most vocal supporters for Hillary".

I DO recognize your avatar as one of the most honest and ethical Senators ever to sit in that chamber. I had the privilege to vote for him when I lived in St Paul.

To answer your question, I guess you get to decide what that "makes you".


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Psephos]

218. Alexander the Great?

Works for me.

lol

[originalpckelly]

179. Actually, I've authored a series of threads that pointed out her corporatist roots...

Just because I don't like corporate oligarchies doesn't mean I support government ones.

[eallen]

187. Mark me down as another opponent of both Chavez & Hillary.

I've posted many times on DU in opposition to Chavez.

And I've also posted many times saying that it would be a mistake to nominate Hillary. For what it is worth, my favorite candidate at this point is Obama.

:hippie:

[knight_of_the_star]

183. Looks like things just got worse

This gives him the stepping stone he needs to move this up to his own people.

[Bacchus39]

184. been there, done that

from another message on this thread




"In March 2005, amendments to the Criminal Code came into force which extended the scope of Venezuela’s desacato (disrespect) laws, and increased penalties for desacato, criminal defamation, and libel. By broadening its desacato provisions, Venezuela ignored the recommendations of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) and bucked a continent-wide trend toward the repeal of this type of law."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm


"In Venezuela, the administration of President Hugo Chávez tightened its grip on the press in 2005, as parts of the Social Responsibility Law for Radio and Television and amendments to the penal code, expanding the categories of government officials protected by "desacato" (insult) provisions, came into effect."

on the other hand:

"In a positive development, several countries, including Chile, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama, eliminated "desacato" (insult) provisions from their statute books."

http://www.freemedia.at/cms/ipi/freedom_detail.html?ctx...


"The new laws adopted by Venezuela, which the OAS's Bertoni has also criticized, say that anyone convicted of "offending" the Venezuelan authorities could go to prison for up to 20 months. Anyone who "gravely offends" the Venezuelan president can incur a penalty of up to 40 months in prison."

http://news.findlaw.com/wash/s/20050706/20050706111125....

[Radical Activist]

189. Funny how we never get any news from South American other than attacks against Chavez.

Anyone have any idea of what's going on in Peru right now? That's real news but it gets no coverage in the US. People need to realize that they're being manipulated.

[EFerrari]

193. Weren't the railroads just nationalized in Peru? There's so much

going on, it's hard to stay current.

[Radical Activist]

200. Massive strikes, violence and social unrest.

Much of it lead by unions. But we wouldn't want to give Americans any ideas with that kind of news coverage.

[EFerrari]

210. Somebody still has UNIONS?

:wow:

[UTUSN]

204. Don't bwah-ha-HAH for me Venezuela!!1 (& Judi Lynn, & Mika!!1) n/t

[pork medley]

205. so how many of you anti-"chavistas" live in the good ol' US of A

where your dissent is completely insignificant in the face of consumer capitalism, or else commodified?

isnt freedom of speech wonderful?

[Pavulon]

206. I do, I do!

But having traveled to many countries I can tell you that I prefer the day to day function of 1st world nations in western europe and the us to the nice beaches but instable systems of some latin american nations. Singapore and some other pac rim nations can be very strange on the first visit.

China is a great consumer driven marker. As is the EU. Most places that are places you want to be are.

You are probably sitting in a consumer driven nation right now.

[pork medley]

208. .

[EFerrari]

211. Hint: Then keep the US government's claws off of Latin America!

That would be hugh!!!11

[conspirator]

241. Those who sacrifice their freedom because they are afraid of a bit of instability

deserve no freedom and no safety. More or less the words of Benjamin Franklin

[Judi Lynn]

212. Reporters for wire services in Venezuela have it made.

They can stay home in their jammies and get all their Chavez stories right off their own tv's.

Record the show, take notes, figure out the way to rewrite the story so it's for shit, then send it in. Cool! That happens a lot, doesn't it? We get so many stories on things Hugo Chavez said on his tv show.

What a job.



~OR~



They can always resort to this, if their own tv goes out and there's no time to get another one.

The real prize, however, will always have to go to the Venezuelan media champ, Tal Cual, who photoshopped a shot of Hugo Chavez addressing a group which had given him a rose, and put a gun in his hand, instead, giving him that really S-C-A-R-Y, half-snapped look!



Sep. 25 cover of Caracas newspaper Tal Cual showing doctored photo of Chavez "at gunpoint". The logo of the event was deleted from the picture.



Original photo taken by a presidential palace photographer, showing Chavez holding a rose given to him by the audience.

(The boring, REAL photo.)

[nick303]

215. The quotes are there

I'd recommend a self-delete on this post if that is all you can muster.

[clixtox]

217. A very weak response

and not at all nice to one of the most reasonable, responsible posters on this site! Shame, shame on you!

If anyone ought to self-delete their post....

[nick303]

252. I'd say it was appropriate

What did the post imply?

It was either

A. a complete non-sequitur (which is certainly within the realm of possibilities)

or

B. somehow implying that the original article was propaganda and not factually based (which is not the case).

All in all it was a pretty lousy attempt to take a stance in a thread a Chavez worshipper would be better off avoiding.

[Judi Lynn]

219. More opinions expressed in Guardian article:

Chávez to expel foreign dissenters

Rory Carroll in Caracas
Monday July 23, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

~snip~
Some analysts downplayed the warning as another example of presidential rhetoric steaming ahead of reality. "I still subscribe to the view that what appears to be wrong with Chávez is more bark than bite," said Larry Birns, of the Washington-based Council for Hemispheric Affairs thinktank.

"Venezuela is not moving towards an authoritarian regime. It's just that when he speaks Chávez doesn't have a pause button. These sort of remarks cause enormous misapprehension and misunderstanding but don't really represent his convictions."

One western diplomat said yesterday's speech did not signal a crackdown on dissent but did reflect a worrying drift. "One shouldn't overreact, it doesn't change much right now, but it is part of a general trend towards intolerance of criticism."

Foreign journalists and NGOs operate freely in Venezuela and about 80% of the domestic media is in private hands. Compared to Colombia or Mexico, where journalists and dissidents are often physically threatened and assassinated, Venezuela seems like a haven.

Mr Chávez's supporters say he has behaved with remarkable restraint given that much of the private media openly backed a coup which briefly ousted him in 2002.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2133102,00.html

[bemildred]

220. This is too kind.

Most countries have and use the right to boot people out when they make themselves obnoxious. I sorta thought this was most likely about some of the more annoying habits of US "diplomats", and I use the term loosely, down there. It's sort of like that misleading "single party" header on that other stupid story.

[Judi Lynn]

225. Loved it when some local Caracas citizens chased ambassador William Brownfield

away from their kids' little league game when he decided he'd just motor in and hand out some baseball gifts from the U.S. taxpayers. So funny.



Motorcyclists chased the convoy for at least 10 minutes

Last Updated: Saturday, 8 April 2006, 00:18 GMT 01:18 UK

US accuses Venezuela over attack

The US under secretary of state told Venezuelan Ambassador Bernardo Alvarez that if such an incident happens again there would be severe diplomatic consequences, department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

Mr Burns said the attack was a violation of the Vienna Convention and that the action was clearly condoned by the local government, the spokesman said.

US Embassy spokesman Brian Penn said the Venezuelan police escorting the convoy did not intervene to stop the incident. "The motorcyclists were throwing things at us for at least 10 minutes, and the police did nothing... It was serious," he said.

Mr Penn claimed the incident was organised by the mayor's office in Caracas, which has denied any involvement in the incident.

"No official authorised by the mayor's office participated," Luis Martinez, a spokesman for Mayor Juan Barreto, told AP.

Officials said the incident was organised by local residents who wanted Mr Brownfield to leave the area.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4890060.stm

[lanlady]

237. when Chavez showed up in Belarus

and loudly praised its leader, the ruthless dictator Alyaksandr Lukashenka, as a great hero and role model, I lost all respect for him.

[redqueen]

247. I just LOVE all the name-calling coming from the "Hugo = evil" crowd.

Telling, that is!

:rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

257. Big freakin deal! It's the same in every country, including ours.

Here's the score:

You have no right whatsoever to enter or inhabit any country of which you are not a citizen. When you are in someone else's country, you remain there on sufferance only. You can be kicked out at any time -- and for any reason or for no reason at all.

Here in the United States, we reserve the right to deport or refuse entry to foreigners who meddle in our affairs. Why shouldn't Venezuelans exercise the same authority in their own country?

[rabidchickens]

259. Chavez is a hero

Dont believe all the right-wing neo-liberal propaganda he is truely a man fighting for the best interest of Venezuela. Now I believe some of his rheotoric is over the top and I fear a cult of personality that may surround him in the future, but him, Ortega and the other new left/center-left leaders of Latin America offer a truly great hope for their nation.

Neo-Liberalism has failed them, the wealth of the Venezuelan oil supplies should be spent on social infrastructure not on funding the rise of a domestic elite and western oil tycoons. Chavez has been spending it on social welfare, infrastructure and fighting poverty.

What's wrong with that?

How many wars has Chavez taken Venezuela down? How many people has he thrown in G. Bay? None and None.

Its high time for the AMERICAN left to start supporting the left in other nations in their struggle against our common enemy... neo-liberalism and the "greed is good" idea