Obama debate comments set off firestorm

[oberliner]

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON - Barack Obama's offer to meet without precondition with leaders of renegade nations such as Cuba, North Korea and Iran touched off a war of words, with rival Hillary Rodham Clinton calling him naive and Obama linking her to President Bush's diplomacy.

Older politicians in both parties questioned the wisdom of such a course, while Obama's supporters characterized it as a repudiation of Bush policies of refusing to engage with certain adversaries.

It triggered a round of competing memos and statements Tuesday between the chief Democratic presidential rivals. Obama's team portrayed it as a bold stroke; Clinton supporters saw it as a gaffe that underscored the freshman senator's lack of foreign policy experience.

"I thought that was irresponsible and frankly naive," Clinton was quoted in an interview with the Quad-City Times that was posted on the Iowa newspaper's Web site on Tuesday.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070724/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_diplomacy;_ylt=AmS7Fh9aatAE6AWDdf2Q1Les0NUE

[devilgrrl]

1. The Associated Press is such a joke...

why not source Drudge?

[oberliner]

4. "Firestorm" does seem like a really strong word to use

Does seem to be a manufactured "firestorm" but it's interesting to see the media spin.

This story is on the main Yahoo news page so I'm sure it will get a good number of hits.

[devilgrrl]

7. Isn't incredible how they (AP, etc.) manufacture controversy?

:crazy:

[MAGICBULLET]

54. who cares about the use of the word firestorm?

why don't you address the point which is that Clinton seems to prefer adopting the same policy of keeping a long distance from those alleged axis of evil countries and Obama would rather engage them. Maybe it's naive, maybe not, but it is a clash. How else would you have written the story?

[robcon]

48. I think 'naive' is a "firestorm" word.

n/t

[TwilightZone]

8. It's not just the AP.

I personally think that the intent and the interpretation of Obama's statement are disparate, but it seems that a lot of people are questioning it, including pubs on the left.

Example: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=217102

[aaronbees]

14. Fake firestorms

are the AP's stock and trade. Obama's answer was fine, I think, and I also think it's fair for Clinton and Edwards to hold slightly different positions. Really the positions are not so far apart ... but of course the mainstream media needs to manufacture a "firestorm."

[IndianaGreen]

2. Chavez is not a dictator, and Cuba has been a victim of US-sponsored terrorism

Hillary adheres to the failed policies of the past, compounded by her subservience to the Israel Lobby, and her inability to break out of the horrible mess we have made of the Middle East by not being an impartial arbiter between Israel and Palestine.

[Odin2005]

15. Chavez isn't a dictator, YET.

I used to have high hopes for Chavez, but now it's looking like he's trending towards the typical pattern of "populist" dictators. My hopes are currently with Evo Morales currently; he, unlike Chavez, doesn't seem to have dictatorial tendencies.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Bush is a dictator now! I don't see many people endorsing Kucinich's H Res 333

the impeachment of Dick Cheney.

[silverojo]

26. "Yet" will probably happen around next week

The moment you stomp on dissenting opinions, and do all the other crap that Chavez is doing...you're a dictator. In fact, he's moving toward being a dictator as fast as Bush is--and that's pretty fast.

Not to mention pretty scary.

[IndianaGreen]

29. You have been drinking way too much neoliberal Kool-Aid

I suppose you also think that Saddam was involved in 9-11.

[liberalsoldier5]

35. How ironic...

of you to be accusing someone of drinking the Kool-Aid, while you continue to stand by Hugo Chavez's side.

Try disagreeing with Chavez in Venezuela the way you disagree with Dumbya in this country. Try watching anti-Chavez viewpoints on Venezuelan television. Oh that right's, you can't. He's shut them down. So as long as Keith Olbermann and DU get to exist in the USA, you're dead wrong on this topic.

[Tempest]

39. You're ignorant of Venezuela

Opposition television stations still exist. The only one that was shut down was the one run by a coup co-conspirator.

There are also opposition radio and newspapers.

[devilgrrl]

43. So you live in Venezuela?

And you've seen this firsthand? Do tell us.

[mbperrin]

62. Here's today's Tal Cual newspaper. Read and judge for

yourself.

http://www.talcualdigital.com/

[devilgrrl]

64. It would help if I knew the Spanish language...

what does it say?

[antiimperialist]

76. I had never heard about that "newspaper" in my whole life

Had anyone here ever heard of it? And by the way, it's a slanted, anti-Chavez "newspaper", or whatever you want to call it. Is it even a newspaper?

[SayWhatYo]

80. That paper appears to be based on out of Caracas...

So, if Hugo did not allow opposition, then wouldn't it be safe to assume that paper would have been shut down?

I'm neither a fanboy nor a anti-chavez person, but I can't help but notice some logic flaws here.

[Odin2005]

61. No, I an perfectly OK with Chavez's economic policy.

One can agree with his economic policies without agreeing with his illiberal political behavior.

[Taverner]

57. True Chavez is not a dictator

Granted he did shut down FoxNews Venezuela...but one action does not a dictator make

[killbotfactory]

68. They're not shut down, they just got bumped to cable

For abusing public airwaves by supporting the overthrow of the government amongst other things.

[pstans]

3. Wasn't it Clinton's debate comments that set off the firestorm?

:shrug:

[maximusveritas]

9. Exactly

She's the one making a big deal out of nothing and of course the press is right there to do her bidding.

[Mz Pip]

5. Both sides need to

take a big breath and calm down over this. I think the whole thing is being blown way out of proportion.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Tiberius]

22. CNN portrayed it immediately after the debate as a "clash"

... and I almost fell out of my chair. It seemed very civil at the time.

It is a generally accepted diplomatic course, though, to move up through the levels of government as each side makes concessions and promises. So in that respect, Clinton was technically correct. But President Obama would be quickly advised, and told by career diplomats on his first day of office, that you don't just immediately grant a meeting with the POTUS without moving your way up the chain first.

So, while Clinton was technically correct, I didn't see it as a big deal at all. It certainly wasn't a "clash"!

[bemildred]

6. Obama should not talk to Clinton, she will use it for propaganda purposes. nt

[elizm]

74. GOOD one!! nt

[Gman]

10. I don't know about irresponsible

but it is definitely naive. It would be irresponsible if Obama knew better and said it any way.

[SayWhatYo]

81. Why is it naive? We haven't made much progress with those nations in the past...

Perhaps it is time to try something else. I'd much rather have someone whois willing to do something new in an attempt to make things better, than someone who says they want change but is unwilling to take risks.

[cyberpj]

11. My personal thought was - We're America. Shouldn't we be willing to speak with EVERY ONE? nt

[Born Free]

12. keep up the good work...

let them argue and get the ideas out there, we are democrats for crying out loud, we are supposed to argue and disagree - if you want lock step blind faith following, join the GOP

it's about time something happens to make things more interesting...

[The Stranger]

13. Isn't it funny how all of the "renegade nations" are made up of people of color?

And Hilary, "President Bush," and likely the "older politicians" are lily White?

I am beginning to like Barack Obama more and more and more.

[silverojo]

27. Isn't it funny that some people bring race into EVERYTHING? n/t

[ChrisdemW]

36. isn't it funny that black people are more comfortable talking about race than whites?

in the words of blogger Francis Holland:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/2/15/18560/1334

"When whitosphere blogs ignore the First Amendment to the US Constitution and implement blog rules in which white members decide what Blacks will be permitted to say, then whites eviscerate the Constitutional protections for free speech on which minority/majority communication depends. Just as between whites, if Blacks cannot say things that whites don't like in the context of a political discussion, then there's no point in us communicating with whites at all. "

....

Maybe not against the rules here but the truth is the democratic party expects ninety percent of blacks to vote for them but has hardly any links on places like this to black blogs and theres a lot of white centric posts here.

[The Stranger]

45. It would appear that race was actually there all along -- I only pointed it out for you.

All of the "renegade" nations are made up of people of color.

Nor do you seem to dispute this.

[Le Taz Hot]

28. Wow!

"Lily white?" Holy shit!

[The Stranger]

46. Did I say something wrong?

Is there another hue of White I should have used?

[TheDonkey]

16. Edwards said he would also meet with them but now has backpeddled to say he would not!

LOL wow, I'm sure he is glad the media doesn't care about him.

[Pastiche423]

25. Stuck his finger in the wind again, did he?

[Odin2005]

17. Obama is right except for North Korea.

There is a difference between REAL rogue states like North Korea and Burma, and the fake "rough states" like Cuba and Iran the Pukes use to scare people (not that I like Iran, but they are light-years behind North Korea and Burma on the badness scale).

[harun]

41. Exactly correct, the sheeple don't understand that though, they scare easy (n/t)

[harun]

42. I like Obama's answer better than Hillary's (n/t)

[chiggerbit]

19. Obama's position might not be...

...as stupid as Hillary tries to make it sound. The contrast is interesting--fresh vs stale has-been. (And this is coming from an Edwards supporter.)

[19jet54]

20. Rookie mistakes!

Not ready for prime time yet - grow up first kid!

In a few more years maybe? He needs a political mentor to mature some more.

[dickbearton]

23. Rookie mistake my ass...

Turn the table on the Criminal Bush and his failed policy of
not talking. As for political mentor, grow up kid, it sounds
like your buying the corporate line. We need fresh thinking
and not more of the same tired, failed policy of your
political mentors.

[19jet54]

66. To hell with experience...

... let's try something new - even if it is wrong!

You have to have lived some history to not repeat it!

[yellowcanine]

52. If that is a rookie mistake how do you account for Hillary's vote for war in Iraq?

[19jet54]

67. The only reason ...

Obama didn't vote for the war is he wasn't elected yet!

Sen. Robert Byrd gets my vote on this subject - a wise old man!

[yellowcanine]

78. Cheap shot. He was against the Iraq war from the beginning.

If you don't like Obama, fine. But be fair and oppose him for real reasons, not hypothetical ones.

And the question was about Hillary's vote, not Obama's non vote. Nice try, but you actually didn't answer the question.

[19jet54]

82. Saddam was against the War from the beginning too!

Have you noticed this thread has only one vote - waste of time!

[yellowcanine]

83. And your point is......?

And you still did not answer my question ablout Hillary.

[19jet54]

87. Who are you?

I don't recall seeing you next to me in combat? And I sure don't answer to you - Go screw yourself chicken-hawk!

[classysassy]

55. Rookie

this isn't baseball,in politics often the younger ones are far superior to the old lame vets.

[19jet54]

65. Old age & treachery will ..

... overcome youth & skill - Only the young believe otherwise!

[SKKY]

69. How in the hell is it a rookie mistake to say that he would in fact...

...engage Syria, Iran, North Korea, etc with diplomacy? Are you saying that continuing to isolate and sanction the crap out of countries we have political differences with is the right approach? The problem with fresh ideas is that, when people first hear them, it scares the crap out of them. I think Hilary is wishing she'd have said that because anything else just makes her a "Stay the current course" candidate. Isn't 2008 about change?

[19jet54]

75. What new idea?

The last original idea was John Nash's game theory that went against years of thought, not B.O.'s pandering!

Maybe it is a new idea to you - because I was born, just not yesterday! Your & B.O's mistake is accepting the original question as valid. N. Korea is proceeding just fine; Castro, Chavez & Iran are another issue altogether - let the State departments do their magic first. B.O. has no executive experience; no foreign diplomatic experience; little federal government experience; not a veteran; his only claim to fame is Harvard? I will say it again, he has potential but ain't ready yet! His attacks on the Clintons & weapons ban comments have only stopped my support of his efforts period! He is only doing himself harm, but with with a 15 point deficit, what the hell.

BTW - Hillary is both wise & cautious thru years of experience & mistakes - History teaches us that Winston Churchill was great in WW-II because of his serious mistakes in WW-I. The problem with the young is they think they know everything, but have done nothing - not even a few big mistakes... we learn from our mistakes!

[EndElectoral]

21. I'm not even an Obama fan, but he's right...You meet with your enemies...it's absurd not to.

[goclark]

31. Bush will not meet with the enemy and look where we are

Now if we had an intelligent President, they would be smart enough to sit down with our friends and our enemies and discuss peace.

It may not work but neither is this ~ now we are talking with guns and killing people!

Let's start talking when we get a real President!

[Cha]

33. Cause the bushits WANT WAR..

and SCARE HEADLINES..not detente.

[kskiska]

24. What people say in debates isn't necessarily etched in granite.

Look at what other presidents/wannabe presidents have said in debate, like L'il Boots, for instance. No one seems to be holding him to his pronouncements on nation-building, handling the oil crisis, being a humble president, changing the tone in Washington, etc.

[killbotfactory]

30. They both hold essentially the same position.

Clinton added the qualifier of doing diplomatic groundwork before any meetings and not necessarily within the first year of her presidency, and then criticized Obama for his comments, making the ridiculous assumption that no diplomatic groundwork would be done under an Obama administration. She knocked down a position of her own invention and attributed it to Obama. Classic strawman, I think.

Bravo Clinton, you can troll like the best of them.

[UrbScotty]

32. Proof that in politics, people get punished for saying the right thing (nt)

[SKKY]

72. Not so fast...

...Obama is becoming the exception to that rule. I think this will play out in his favor.

[nealmhughes]

34. Why is Cuba a "renegade nation" by AP standards? I thought it was a

Communist Republic with a strong president/party leader in Fidel.

When is the last time Cuba sponsored terrorist attacks on a third country's aircraft like the US did with the Miami crowd?

[killbotfactory]

37. When Cuba was helping people like Nelson Mandela fight apartheid

Once upon a time, Mandela was considered a terrorist by people like Dick Cheney.

[nealmhughes]

38. My memory! How it slips away! I almost forgot about being a diplomatically

recognized state with ambassadors with every major country in the world save one, and all those Cuban doctors running around Africa.

[David__77]

40. Obama's got my support.

He's clearly the one who will break with the rotten, stinking edifice of war and aggression.

[BigDDem]

44. If Hillary would have said

she would meet with Kim Jong il with no preconditions within a year of
taking office you guys would have come unhinged.
But since it's Saint BO, it's no biggie.
Soooooooo predictable.

[SKKY]

71. That's absolutely not true....

...I've always thought we should engage our political adversaries more than we do. But, it didn't surprise me one bit that Hilary jumped on this. Now, if Obama is smart, he'll easily put this right back on her and she'll end up looking like a female verion of Joe Lieberman.

[ckramer]

47. Obama is my man so far

so good

[robcon]

49. I agree with Hillary.

You don't meet with your enemies unless there is a lot of pre-meeting agreements.

Otherwise it will just be a meaningless opportunity for cheap shots for those dictators.

[yellowcanine]

51. I disagree. Even Churchill said "Jaw Jaw is better than War War"

Too many preconditions usually mean no talking gets done.

[ozone_man]

50. Frankly, it was naive to vote for the Iraq war.

All of us here knew there were no WMDs, didn't we?

[saigon68]

56. She is naive and a simpleton

I loved it when she was protesting my war ,helping bill dodge the draft and climbing the ladder of corporate riches all at the same time

[ozone_man]

63. Naivity or calculated political wind testing.

I think the latter. Like most in the Senate, she went along with the politically safe thing to do. I think 12 Senators (two in my state) voted against that Iraq war resolution, and a few presidential candidates. Fool me once ... ;)

[Bo]

53. Anyone who voted for the IRAQ BLOODBATH is a FOOL

Fuck Them

[ericgtr]

58. Let's just leave all the evil dictators at arms length

Look how well that's worked for the current administration.

I am liking Obama more and more each day, we need someone to step up to the plate and initiate talks with these leaders, good for him.

[Renew Deal]

59. And most of DU agrees with Obama

Though Clintonites will suddenly disagree.

[hedgehog]

60. Yahoo - the gloves are off.

The next debates/forums should get really interesting, now.

[SKKY]

70. Hilary absolutely blew it!

And I think what she really meant to say say, "No, I don't think we should engage those countries, and I also want everyone to know that, politically speaking, I'm a female version of Joe Lieberman."

[BigDDem]

73. Yet she still leads

Saint BO by double digits, go figure!

[SKKY]

79. This is barely spring training....

...they're just trying not to get hurt.

[antiimperialist]

77. MSNBC Exclusive: Obama hits Clinton--harder

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/25/290301.aspx

[bamacrat]

84. Im with Obama on this one, he has the right idea here.

Im still a Kucinich/Biden supporter but I am starting to like some of the things Obama is saying.

[JerseygirlCT]

85. Much ado about absolutely nothing

And in a way, they're both right.

Hillary is right not to make sweeping promises about foreign policy now, as part of a political campaign.

And Obama is right that engagement as a general policy is better than the (goodness, don't know how to describe it) mess we've got now.

The press is trying hard to make it all much more interesting than it is, frankly.

[HuffleClaw]

86. don't ya just love how the corporate media is propping these two up?

until of course it destroys the both of 'em.