Ranger: Shooters could not have been 10 yards from Tillman

[sabbat hunter]

Source: espn.com

The Army Ranger who was alongside Pat Tillman when he was shot in Afghanistan told ESPN.com Friday that he remains convinced that the former NFL player was accidentally killed by friendly fire, rather than a target of a malicious act......



The doctors, whose names were blacked out, said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the former Arizona Cardinals safety was cut down by a weapon fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

"No, there is no way the guy was 10 yards away. That is just completely unlikely," O'Neal told ESPN.com. "If he was there initially, like the way the conspiracy theorists work that he was there to kill Pat, why wouldn't he have killed me? That doesn't work so well. "

"There is no way that was the case ," O'Neal said. "You'd be able to make out their face. You'd know exactly who was shooting. Yeah, there is no possible way they were just 10 yards away."

Read more: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2951521

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discuss......

interesting to me, that this guy comes out now, at this time.

[melody]

1. Note how he carefully demeans the "conspiracy theories"

Most crimes are solved by recognizing conspiracy theories. In fact, it makes more sense that they would
"leave him" alive to say all this.

[LiberalEsto]

2. Because O'Neal

wasn't the target, that's why

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

39. Or he was the shooter...

The one eye witness to the crime swears that he didn't see anything? It would suggest that either he's being handsomely paid to obscure the truth or his finger was on the trigger. This guy needs to be arrested and held as a material witness to a homicide.

[daleo]

3. He is the guy that Tillman told to "stop sniveling"

Perhaps he wasn't really able to observe what happened (i.e. he had his head down). His denials seem rather tenuous ("completely unlikely") for someone who was an eye witness.

On edit: Here's a bit more detail on that:

"The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

O'Neal told ESPN.com his words did not match the chaplain's recollection. "The way he put it is wrong. I wouldn't say it is entirely inaccurate," he said."

[John Q. Citizen]

5. Not very convincing. the fact the whole thing was covered up for so long

is very suspicious.

Didn't this guy know right off it was a friendly?

[movonne]

8. That guy might be responsible for this...he was close to him..

[pacalo]

30. And the fact that they burned his personal effects (clothes, diary) bothers me.

[Pale Blue Dot]

6. This sounds like a guy who needs a lawyer, IMO. nt

[aquart]

7. Well, Tllman's head wasn't down. 3 in the forehead?

Is that a typical wound pattern from an M-16 (person who knows nothing about guns asking)? Is that how soldiers are trained to shoot? Three tight shots to the head?

[daleo]

9. I am no gun expert

But I did read in another thread that some M-16s are designed to file a burst of three bullets. At 600 rounds per minute, that would only take a few hundredths of a second, and it would naturally result in a tight pattern.

[Pavulon]

13. M4 and M16 are capable of that group

and every soldier from clerk to infantry is trained to fire in controlled bursts of 3 rounds.

[thunder rising]

15. You'd be wrong on the tight pattern

The weapon jerks and climbs through the expenditures unless it's being carefully aimed and it's pattern countered.

This was an aimed burst with a braced barrel. My guess, sniper style, prone position.

This guy talking would have known from the blast that the weapon was fired close. 10 yards, 30 ft, and missed him a few feet high. It's breath taking.

[Pavulon]

17. Like a combat vet, who had thousands of rounds

downrange from an M4. He would be comfortable putting 3 shots in someones head at 10yards. I never shot at any range target closer than 100m but am positive an m4 could group 4 - 6 inches at that distance.

By the way if these guys were on contact and returning fire they would have diminished hearing from gunshots.

He was shot by a fellow Ranger.

[TomInTib]

24. He must have been leaning against something.

You know how it is, Pavulon.

Even a short burst to the forehead at close range is going to wander around on the forehead.

Of course, Tillman was a pretty strong guy.

I still think the first hit would have wobbled his head around.

[Pavulon]

27. I know how when people screw up

it ruins their careers. The army has zero tolerance and this promotes cover up mentality. I was NG and did not give a shit about a career but when fraud waste abuse came up it was either pinned to a person or went away.

I did not use the M4 or M16 on anything other than qualifying ranges. Cant say how it groups at 10 yards. But I could guess it would be possible to make that shot.

[Midniteagle]

40. M-16s can empty a 20 round

magazine in 3 seconds...... that is 6 rounds in less than 1 second, if it was a burst of three, they would have been fired in about half a second., and entered his forhead at the same rate of speed from that short of a distance. I dont know how fast or far the forhead would react to that kind of impact, but the shot pattern would be very tight. I am a Viet Nam Era Vet, and was Security Police in the USAF, and highly trained with the M-16 during my active duty service.

[sanskritwarrior]

26. Agreed

I have many paper targets where I put 3 rounds into a 3 inch pattern on 3 round burst.......I have been firing an M-16 for 14 years.......Conspiracy theorists want to believe this so badly............. :eyes:

[kenfrequed]

12. Well...

When I was in the army we were taught to aim at center mass. A three round burst can be pretty tight if controlled properly and at closer range. Obviously the longer the range the greater the scattering.

[LisaL]

25. Head is not a center mass. It's harder to hit the head.

I believe police officers are told to shoot at the body, not the head.
From what was reported, Tillman was shot three times in the forehead.

[kenfrequed]

33. percisely

I was also trained to aim for center mass (the trunk of the body) when I was in the service.

[nebenaube]

34. yeah but if you know your target has body armor... n/t

[LisaL]

36. It seems to me it would take a lot of skill

to shoot someone in the head with three bullets close to each other.

[TomInTib]

23. Short burst...

I, being someone who has shot a good number of people with an M16, questioned this thing from the start.

When they said he took three to the forehead, I really started wondering.

If it was the thorax, I would understand.

He must have been propped up. Leaning against something.

But I do believe that it was just a fuck-up followed by an inept cover-up.

Anyway, that is my opinion.

[thereismore]

4. funny he says "there is no way they were 10 yards away". Sounds like he never

saw any of it. Why doesn't he just say "I was there and the shooter was far away, so gar away we could not see him...". My guess is, this guy has an ax to grind or he was just so out of it thyat he never saw anything, 10 yards or 2 yards away. If he was hugging the ground, chances are his head was buried in it.

[Old and In the Way]

10. It's a very odd story.

Three tight shots to the forehead could only happen "accidently" from very close range. But if this guy was next to Tillman, he'd know the shooters identity. If this happened from a distance, it would have to be a professional hit.

I would think an autopsy could conclude the distance away the shots were fired. They have the slugs...did they ever match to the rifle(s) they came from? If not, why not?

The fact that he tries to immediately refute a "conspiracy theory" makes me wonder if there was some kind of hit done on Tilman...a conspiracy, if you will.

There's a lot that we don't know about this whole story, but I think there's more than enough evidence that a criminal investigation is warranted.

[JDPriestly]

11. The facts are unclear.

The cover up is the essential fact. The dissemination of an utterly false story to cover up a truth that was not "pretty." That is so Bush-co. It is an insult to the American people. As for the truth, we will probably never know it. Clearly the 'Army Ranger" either did not see the shooting or is lying. Either way, he will not make a good witness.

[Boo Boo]

14. "...completely unlikely." That's a good one.

Tell ya what, Skippy, maybe you're the guy that did it. That would explain why "he" didn't kill you, wouldn't it. Or, maybe it was another guy in your unit, which would also explain why "he" didn't kill you. Maybe somebody (like you, for instance) was walking around with their finger on the bang switch and accidently shot Tillman in the head, and the Bush Admin decided to give Tillman the Jessica Lynch treatment.

All the doctors are saying is that the evidence is not consistent with the story that was told. And since y'all have already been caught lying and destroying evidence, well, it's a little hard to believe anything you say unless you're saying it while under oath.

[Limelight]

21. Hell...

Even under oath the sh*t is suspect.

[brentspeak]

28. That's a stupid accusation on your part

O'Neal was actually a friend of Tillman's, too.

[Occulus]

35. Hoo boy, I was just about to say the same damn thing myself... n/t

[Exultant Democracy]

16. Well I guess there was no cover up either, we should all trust Bushco more

come on why would they lie to us?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

29. "Jackass"???

O'Neal not only was a) there, when it happened; b) himself shot; he was c) Tillman's friend.

[Doctor_J]

19. Is there any way Tillman could have been hit 4 times while this guy was missed

altogether, standing "alongside him"? Sounds fishy to a non-com like me

[Limelight]

22. Sounds like he wasn't so much "standing"...

As ducking. :yoiks:

Don't get me wrong, somebody shoots at me I duck too. But, watching KO's segment from the last day or two, he quoted the official report on Tillman's death that quoted Tillman's last words as being something to the effect of "Would you shut your f*cking mouth?! God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself you sniveling..." as he was talking to someone nearby who was balled up on the ground, crying out for God to same him (or something to that effect). Gotta wonder if Mr. Forensic and Ballistics expert here is the one who's ass Pat was breaking his shoe off in?

Apparently Pat didn't get to finish chewing the guy out before he caught three to the noggin. Three shots in a two inch diameter (which sounds to me like a 3 round burst from an M-16 or whatever it is they use now) from a moving Humvee?

Only if this is just the next installment of Bruce Willis in "Die Hard". Otherwise it's plain bullsh*t... the kind I wouldn't pay to see I mean.

[eShirl]

20. posted last night

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1457861&mesg_id=1457861

[mitchum]

31. If I were part of a conspiracy and cover up, I also would be trying to cover my ass

[SKKY]

32. One thing about this just scares the bejeezus out of me...

...if there is no consipracy to cover up the truth, why won't Bush and company release the documents they have on this? What is in those documents that they're not willing to disclose? How high does this go? And why haven't more of his fellow soldiers come out to clear the air? What are THEY hiding? It would be easy enough to say, "Look, he was out there, we lost contact, and things got very confusing." Their silence is deafening. If this was homocide, I hope everyone who had ANYTHING to do with it rots in hell. Pat Tillman was a hero, and did things for the right reason. He didn't deserve this.

[Psephos]

37. "He never would have called me 'sniveling,'" O'Neal said.

This thread is full of cherry-picked fragments that cast Tillman in a poor light. O'Neal's testimony is exculpatory, but you wouldn't know it from this thread.

Read this article:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070729/D8QM1Q380.html

A chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman's death later described this exchange to investigators conducting a criminal probe of the incident. But O'Neal strongly disputes portions of the chaplain's testimony, outlined in some 2,300 pages of transcripts released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

The chaplain told investigators that O'Neal said Tillman was harsh in his last moments, snapping, 'Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

"He never would have called me 'sniveling,'" O'Neal said. "I don't remember ever speaking to this chaplain, and I find this characterization of Pat really upsetting. He never once degraded me. He's the only person I ever worked for who didn't degrade anyone. He wasn't that sort of person."

The chaplain's name is blacked out in the documents.

Why are conspiracy theories on DU *ALWAYS* favorable to the left view? Doesn't that bother anyone here? It sure bothers me - it tells me a blindness invoked by ideology infests many DUers' thinking more than is acknowledged. I'm not saying that those who arrive at their conclusions after sound analysis are blind, whatever their conclusions. I'm saying I see here that critical thinking gets tossed out the window when ideology puts the conclusion ahead of the facts.

To my thinking, given the eye-witness testimony of the man standing next to Tillman at the moment of his death, the chaplain's testimony is the less trustable version. Tillman was well-liked and respected, nearly universally so. Even a few rogues who could have hated him (none have been identified) would know that his comrades would figure out what happened, ferret them out, and eliminate them in a most unpleasant way. The discipline and connection in elite units such as Tillman's are clearly beyond the ken of most of those who posted up-thread.

Trying to make political hay from Tillman's death disgusts me. That goes for transgressors on the left as well as on the right.

[underpants]

38. I told you I told you guys I TOLD YOU GUYS that they offed him

I told you.

I saw the part about the retired General losing a star while we were on vacation (almost completely avoided the news)over this but of course no mention was made of the details of this report.

I
TOLD
YOU

as did others here. This smelled from the getgo.