Murders up 20% in Phila. in 2003

[GRClarkesq]

Posted on Fri, Jan. 02, 2004

Last year's 347 killings reversed a downward trend. That echoed rises in other big cities.

By James M. O'Neill
Inquirer Staff Writer

It turned out that the U.S. military lost fewer soldiers to hostile fire in Iraq in 2003 than Philadelphia lost residents to murder.

The homicide rate soared to an unofficial 347 last year in the City of Brotherly Love, a jump from 288 in 2002 and 20 more than the number of U.S. soldiers killed by enemy fire in Iraq.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/7615468.htm

[qanda]

1. Now, why did they have to compare it to Iraq?

How insensitive can they get? I'm sure the family members of the soldiers really care about those comparisons.

[Toucano]

2. But they have Saddam!

Don't you feel safer? Cities and states have no money for police, but we HAVE Saddam!

Actually, I think crime statistics are going to be subject to gross manipulation soon. There's a lot of "reclassification" going on. I think I heard that on NPR.

[Demonaut]

3. Insurgents in Philly????

dont they know we have Saddam?

[guajira]

4. Murder City USA -- Chicago

snippet:
Chicago — Chicago has regained a title it didn't want: Murder City U.S.A.

The city, which has a population of about three million, finished 2003 with 599 homicides, police said Thursday. That was down from 648 a year earlier and the first time since 1967 the total dipped below 600.

Still, the third-largest U.S. city outpaced all others for the second time in three years. New York City, with about three times the population, ended the year with 596 homicides. Los Angeles, which had the most murders in 2002 at 658, wound up 2003 with an estimated total just under 500.
more...

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040102.wmurder0102/BNStory/International/

[SwellGround]

6. Is there a chart that shows crime rate versus Dem and repub mayors?

Which party has a better record for lower crime/murder rates?

[Red State Rebel]

18. St. Louis murders lowest since 1962......yehaa!

[SwellGround]

5. Sounds like the gun laws are starting to work

Every city that bans ownership of guns by innocent citizens sees their murder rates go up.

Might be time to take a hint...

[MrBenchley]

7. Not even close to true...

But thanks for repeating NRA propaganda...

[SwellGround]

8. Got data?

Every graph I have seen (non-NRA) has shown that the stricter the gun laws are the more innocent victims there are. I will examine any data you have that shows different.

[Gingersnap]

9. do you have data?

you're the one who brought up this charge, it's your job to prove it.Sneaky--"show me data and I'll disprove it, but I don't have to offer my own." Let's see those non-NRA charts and graphs.

[SwellGround]

11. No need to get nasty...I'll see if I can find it on the web

It was a hardcopy report I read from GOA. I'll be back with a link hopefully soon...

[DoNotRefill]

13. this whole thing is a catch-22 situation.

antigunners claim that ready availability of firearms causes crime. They point to every decrease in crime, regardless of the cause, as proof that gun control works. They point at every increase in crime as proof that we need more gun control.

They totally ignore the fact that crime is cyclical, and depends on a great many variables (factors: economy, demographics, et cetera), the LEAST of which is gun control laws or the availability of guns.

Want proof of this? Look at the homicide rate figures put out by the DoJ. They break it down into types of weapons used. If the gun control laws cause gun crime to go down, then gun crime should decrease after gun control laws are passed, but non-gun crimes should stay the same or increase. After all, a gun control law couldn't have any negative effect on people being stabbed or strangled, could it? Rather than citing stats to you, I ask you to make the comparison yourself. that way, I can't be accused of doctoring the numbers.

[SwellGround]

14. How many crimes are stopped by the threat of force with a gun?

If a legal citizen is not allowed to own a gun then he may not be able to stop a crime against him or others. These are the types of data that anti-gunners always ignore. If either side can't be honest then all bets are off.

[DoNotRefill]

15. there are figures out there....

from zero(demonstrably false) to 2,500,000 defensive gun uses per year.

The problem with quantifying this is lies in the defining of the term DGU. If somebody points a gun, and nobody is injured because the attacker runs away, is that a DGU? I'd say yes, but others would classify DGUs as ONLY those cases where a person shoots and kills somebody and is found not guilty in court because it was a justifiable use of force. That's an unrealistic definition in my opinion.

Persoanlly, I'd think that the figure probably runs in the 700,000-1,000,000 real DGUs per year. I've personally used a gun defensively several times over the past 20 years.

[billbuckhead]

28. Hawaii's strict gun laws keep it among the lowest in gun crime

and it's even a rich diverse state with a lot of population density. Southern rural god and guns states like Louisiana and Alabama actually have higher homocide rates than Yankee cities.

[Penance]

10. Huh?

Thanks to the politicization of the issue, it's nearly impossible to quickly Google accurate NYC's gun law dates. Most of the links point to the (much-reviled by 2nd amendment types) '91 Dinkins-era law prohibiting shotguns and semi-automatics. According to the linked article, there were 2,245 gun murders in 1990 compared with 596 in 2003. They skyrocketed, all right. I doubt there's any direct relationship there, but it's the opposite of what you claim.

[DoNotRefill]

12. Yuppers...

and the burning out of the worst of the crack wars had nothing to do with that....

BTW, the Sullivan laws go back to the early 1900s.

[NickB79]

25. So is the Assault Weapons Ban somehow retroactive?

Gun crimes peaked in the early 90's but began to decrease by 92-93. The AWB went into effect in late 1994. How can you then make the claim the AWB caused the decrease in crime when the decrease began BEFORE the law went into effect?

[SideshowScott]

16. Here we go agian...Under Bush I Murders were at a all time high..

The Gun nuts can howl all they want that more guns on the street will lower crime.. ( Huh? That NEVER made sence to me! ) But the fact of the matter is that under Reagan/Bush Murders and violent crime reached a fever pitch till Clinton took over and gave people Jobs, boosted the Econ and put more cops on the street with tax money..
When we all do better the country does better...Not when the rich does better the people suffer is the way to go..

[DoNotRefill]

17. I'll explain.

The argument of more guns = less crime is pretty simple. First, it's really "more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens", not "more guns in the hands of criminals". Most people would agree that an increased police presence with the attendant increase in visibility may result in a decrease in crime. The reasoning is that if you've got a cop behind you in traffic, you don't speed or make illegal u-turns, because hey, there's a cop right behind you. With me so far?

OK. There's been long-standing evidence that criminals are more frightened by the idea of running into an armed victim than they are of running into and being caught by a police officer. After all, an armed citizen is more likely to be scared and shoot their attacker than the police are, and cops have more legal restraints on them regarding the use of force than regular people do, right? This is based upon research done in the penal system, interviewing real criminals who have been caught. This is why "hot burglaries" are a relative rarity in the US compared to "cold burglaries", since criminals would rather break into a place where nobody's home than a place where some redneck is sleeping with a double barreled shotgun next to the bed. It's safer for the criminal. The same holds true for street crime. A criminal would be absolutely nuts to walk up to and try to rob somebody with a pistol strapped to their waist. This is why cops rarely get mugged, not some nonsensical idea of the criminals fearing the badge. They fear the gun. Additionally, if regular people have the opportunity to legally carry a concealed weapon, some of them will. Criminals will know this, and will choose to commit property crimes rather than risk getting shot for the $20 in some armed person's wallet. Since the guns are concealed, the criminal has no idea who is armed and who isn't, which means that they're less likely to commit crimes against people.

Hope this helps.

[SideshowScott]

21. Yeah in a black and white world that still would not work though

Fact of the matter is more Guns on the street is more Guns on the street. No matter how " Good " a person is that gun may one day fall into the wrong hands that will be used in a violent crime. Who's to say that a good person may turn bad. Or for that matter a bad person getting shot and killed for a mistake he made may one day be good. No one is perfect. Its just more NRA and Republican Baloney. The real reason they want more guns on the street is that they hope the poor and minority's will die by the bullet. Where do you see more gun stores? In the poor or rich neighborhoods? I'm sure they are just drooling for another bloodbath that gripped this country in the 80's and early 90's. Fear it the greatest tool of a right winger.
A gun is nothing more than an instrument to kill living things no matter if they are a good or bad person. If they want numbers they should look at gun deaths of every country. The U.S. numbers are frigging embeassing.

[DoNotRefill]

22. Ummm....

the black market is already overstocked. Gun stores tend to go where the money is. In a great many places, you'll find the gun stores in the more affluent suburbs, not in the poorer cities.

As for bad people getting shot, I have no problem with that at all. If somebody threatens somebody else with death or greivous bodily harm, the innocent party has a right (actually an obligation to society in my book) to kill the aggressor if that's what it takes to stop the attack.

Regarding the number of gun deaths in the US: I'd suggest you look at the US homicide rate not involving guns, and compare that to the total homicide rate for the rest of the "first world". you'll find that we kill more people WITHOUT guns in the US than most countries kill total. That would suggest that the problem is cultural, not one of guns.

[NickB79]

26. New Sportsman's Warehouse just went up here last year

"The real reason they want more guns on the street is that they hope the poor and minority's will die by the bullet. Where do you see more gun stores? In the poor or rich neighborhoods?"

Right next to the mall. And a Scheels Superstore is going up IN the mall itself. The mall is located in the center of the most affluent shopping area of our city. On the other hand, the only gun shops I see in the poor neighborhoods are pawn shops, and I have see very few new pawnshops opening.

[kodi]

19. was there over xmas to visit my dad, the place is a f*&%king mess

you could smell the stench of the city miles away.

christ i grew up there in the 50's-70's and it looks like a third world country now.

i took the train (nice time too) and as amtrak rolled thru south philly on the way to 30th st station the place looked like bombed out warsaw. all you saw for miles were abandoned houses, broken down cars and garbage in the streets.

[daleo]

20. Re: Iraq and Philly death rate comparison

Philadelphia http://philadelphia.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm
Population: 1517550
Homicides: 347
Homicides per 100000: 22.86580343

Iraq
Population (U.S.): 130000
Combat Deaths: 327
Combat Deaths per 100000: 251.5384615

If we take into account all U.S. military deaths, and adjust for the fact that the war began in late March (annualized to 12 months), the U.S. deaths per 100000 goes up to about 492.

[demdave]

23. Funny, another link.....Homicides in LA Plunge 23% From Year Before

And not a single reply. I guess people around here just like to complain.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=296634

[grayrace]

24. progunners wanted to use this as ammo, thats why it got so much attention

[JoeNormal]

27. Hmmm....that is sad for Philly

I wonder what the violent crime stats are this year for cities and states that have concealed carry laws...did they go up or down? Here in the murder capital, law abiding citizens are not trusted by the politicos to defend ourselves legally...just left to be slaughtered by the criminals released by George Ryan.