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I know all the different "Johns" in the New TEstament. I wanted you to tell me which one you were referring to.... Listing them all doesn't show to whom you meant.
{Before I go forward, I want to thank you! YOu've given me so much enjoyment in this discussion! Seriously! There's a lot of opinion out here in the ethers, and most folks make fun of Christians, and the Bible, but to really delve into the scripture, and to have a conversation of depth, it's great! And please don't think I'm beating up on you or your point of view... I support and love GLBT folks, and support gay clergy! but I don't like the bible being misused; we need more literacy! Besides, you might sense this.. I'm a teacher.}
All these quotes- although seemingly very adequate- are not mainstream scholarship, none of these are acceptable to real Biblical scholars.
You can find anything you want on the internet; These citations you quote (good for Google!) are agenda driven... all of these come from those who really want to find evidence thereof, and thus come up with odd claim that aren't really in the Bible. Some of this is the historical critical method. But most of this is anedotal, and someone's opinion, NOT actually in scripture. Did you consider looking in the Bible yourself to find those things which you claim?
If I might break a few things down:
First quotation: +++"John describes himself as "leaning on Jesus' bosom" during the Last Supper+++ (John 13:23);
This comment doesn't carry any truth. Scholars believe that the narrator of the gospel of John probably wasn't any John at all. Many surmise
the author of "John" could have been a woman! And the EXACT line for line from the RSV translation says: "One of his disciples- the one
whom Jesus loved- was reclining next to him..." (JOhn 13:23-
you picked the quote but I gave you the exact words from the Bible)
NO NAME is mentioned at all. I don't read JOHN at all.
IT says "the disciple whom Jesus loved"... and as I said before,
If you read John yourself (and not google someone else's opinion)
you'll see all it says is "the disciple whom Jesus loved." NO names.
Scholars ponder just who this was. Many say it was Lazarus...
some even say it was Mary. But no one comes out and says it was John. Except people who want it to be JOhn. And as to 'reclining..."
it doesn't mean anyone was in bed together. History tells us that
when Jews ate the Passover Meal(which is what the Last Supper was.. it was a Seder meal), they did not sit upright in chairs, but lounging, in the reclining position. No one is laying with another..
And this quote: +++" John describes himself as "leaning on Jesus' bosom" during the Last Supper"(John 13:23); later, when Jesus was bound
and taken to the high priest, John (who "was known unto the high priest") and Peter followed along (John 18:15). "+++
First of all, John doesn't describe 'himself'- the narrator in
John 18 :15 says this (this is the exact quote):+++"Simon Peter and another disciples followed Jesus, since that disciple was known to
the high priest, he went with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest;"+++
I don't see the name John in that quotation from the gospel.
I see "another disciple." Could be John, but if it was, and if it
was so important, it would have said so. There is no evidence in scripture that John would have had been known to the High PRiest.
The only disciple who might have been known to the priest might have been Lazarus himself (read John chapter 13).
If you remember from my first post, I referred to various works of
art throughout history who portray a youth near Christ in paintings.
16th century paintings, like all artwork throughout the ages,
is the interpretation of the artist, and has little reflection of scripture: the artist wasn't there at the last supper!
Here is your quote to me, which agrees with me...
+++ "In art, the Beloved Disciple is portrayed as a beardless youth – the figure of the Student – but often mistaken for a woman. He is usually shown in major scenes from the Gospel of John, especially the crucifixion and the Last Supper. Many artists have given different interpretations of John 13:23–25, in which the beloved disciple is resting his head against Jesus' chest."+++
Did you read the words; "Different interpretations"?
Here's more tripe:
"The Gospels testify to an intense intimacy between Jesus and John." Uh? I don't think so. Have any of these commentators read the gospels? The disciple Jesus was the closest to was Peter!
Here's more questionable scholarship:
++"the non-canonical Secret Gospel of Mark portrays an explicitly sexual relationship between Jesus and John as well as between Jesus and other men. " ++++
Do you know what a "non-canonical gospel is'?
Non-canonical means it wasn't acceptable to the church because there's no way for it to jive with scholarship... there are many 'non-canonical gospels' in circulation (Like the controversial gospel of Thomas
which gives lots of juicy details about Jesus relationship with Mary!), many of them written just to gain notority, just like the 'National Inquiror' writes phony stories to get cash. Throughout history there have been many 'non-provable' stories on Jesus, and just about
everyone else. That's exactly what we find on the internet, lots
of fiction about things we can't prove, and because they don't
really use the Bible as their source, but use their own opinions,
we can't rely on their veracity.
Here is more conjecture, based NOT on scripture, but on an artwork:
+++" In contrast with much medieval and Renaissance art, da Vinci’s The Last Supper is, if anything, a modest portrayal of the relationship. Jacopo Bassano’s The Last Supper (1542), for instance, pictures a sleepy, seated, barely adolescent St. John who seems to be physically attached to the Jesus standing behind him. Late-15th-century Dutch painter Meister des Hausbuchs’s The Last Supper shows the beloved apostle’s head resting firmly and lovingly in Jesus’s lap."+++
These are not biblical truth, but artists' interpretations. I can't buy that as gospel. You've seen pictures of celebrities 'photo-shopped'
on the internet, to portray them in all kinds of unbelieveable situations. Do you believe them to be true also?
Here's another one I question:
+++"In the Book of John a word is used eight times that means 'is in love with'++ WHAT word does he mean? Tell me.
I've read the gospel of John in the language it was written, In Greek, and sorry, I don't know what Word he was referring to...
In Greek there are at least 6 words for love... unless someone is a specialist in koine Greek, its easy to get confused..
More with that quote
++ "with the implication of sexual intimacy. Five times it is used with reference to Jesus' relationship with John. Once it is used to define Jesus' relationship with Lazarus. And it is also used to describe his relationship with Mary and with her sister Martha." 7 "
What word does he mean? As I said, there are at least 6 words for 'love' in Koine Greek; I need more information to accept this.
Well, my lecture for today is over.
As I said, thank you so much! YOu made my day!
Now, go read the Bible! (LOL)
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