Nifong decrys State Bar's "unfairness"

[bluestateguy]

Source: Charlotte News and Observer

Former Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong ended his legal career last week when he mailed in his law license along with a note decrying "the fundamental unfairness" of how he was treated by the N.C. State Bar.
The bitterness in Nifong's letter, dated Aug. 7, is in stark contrast with his statements in June, when the bar's Disciplinary Hearing Commission ordered him stripped him of his law license for intentionally and repeatedly lying and cheating during his prosecution of the Duke lacrosse case.

cut

Nifong was disbarred for his prosecution of rape charges against three Duke lacrosse players. Attorney General Roy Cooper dismissed the charges and declared that Dave Evans, Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty were innocent.



Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/670497.html

---

I hope someday the same fate befalls the persecutor in the Genarlow Wilson case in Georgia.

[Swede Atlanta]

1. Cry me a river

As a licensed attorney I recognize the value Mr. Nifong places on his license to practice law but his behavior and actions warrant the reasonable steps the state bar took against him. As a professor once told me, to practice law, medicine, etc. is not a right and as such must be protected.

[Kagemusha]

2. He claims it's a new guilty verdict, not a clerical error. It must be! It has to be!

It's so unfair!! Waaaah!!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

4. I hope that creep is sent away and does HARD TIME, not just a slap on the wrist for what this creep

did to those INNOCENT BOYS to boost his election chances...

I have never seen a more vile creature...

[customerserviceguy]

15. Wait till you see him

whine when he gets THAT handed to him!

[wellst0nev0ter]

5. I Wonder How Many DAs Have Been Disbarred For Imprisoning Innocent Black Folks

*crickets*

[bluestateguy]

6. You know, I'm glad you brought that up

By disbarring and criminally charging Nifong, steps have being taken to ensure that he can't hurt anyone else, including poor and black defendants.

The 3 innocent lacrosse players are from powerful families with a lot of money. They used their resources to ensure that justice was done to Nifong. In fact I think that they had a responsibility to do so because other wronged defendants from less powerful backgrounds would not have been able to fight back. Now they will be protected from the likes of him.

Although, I do think that the North Carolina Attorney General should order a top to bottom review of every conviction Nifong has pushed through the courts, and where necessary, arrange new trials for the defendants.

[pitohui]

12. that is my feeling too

I think that they had a responsibility to do so because other wronged defendants from less powerful backgrounds would not have been able to fight back. Now they will be protected from the likes of him.

[wellst0nev0ter]

52. I Highly Doubt He's The Only Crooked DA

The others manage to get away since all their victims are poor folks and minorities. Sorry, I just don't buy the idea that the Nifong punishment is based on sincere pursuit of justice rather than retaliation for victimizing rich white men.

[CreekDog]

197. that's okay nobody is trying to convince you and you aren't convincing anybody

[BlueIris]

7. Chirp.

I'm trying real hard to think of one.

[ThomCat]

8. That's a damned good question.

It would be great if we had better prosecutors, and if people would be equally concerned about all the prosecutors who railroad black people in jail.

Concern about equal justice is wonderful. I wish it wasn't so selective, and didn't come out only when rich white boys were on the docket.

[OzarkDem]

9. Good question

I would hazard a guess and say none.

[customerserviceguy]

17. Is it possible

that an evil prosecutor will think twice about going after innocent black victims, because of how the lawyer community handled Nifong? If so, then it was worth it.

[ThomCat]

20. It's possible, but amazingly unlikely.

When has a prosecutor ever faced repercussions for going after someone black?

The backlash from this will only prevent prosecutors from going after rich white boys.

[customerserviceguy]

32. I hope you're wrong

but secretly fear you might just be right... I guess the answer is to mount a vigorous defense in the cases of people of color who are railroaded by DA's, but it might be difficult to find all the cases.

Still, I hope the Nifong case sends a chill down the spine of prosecutors who use their office for ill.

[LisaL]

23. How many DAs did what Nifong did?

Show me another DA who went on to give numerous interviews to the press like Nifong did.

[wellst0nev0ter]

51. Look Up "Central Park Jogger"

But the real crime frequently occurs under the radar, as chronicled by The Innocence Project, where dozens of blacks and other minorities were railroaded to harsh sentences based on the flimsiest of evidence. I just feel that the action taken against Nifong is not based on actual dedication to the rule of law, but because the targets this time were rich white men.

[laureloak]

109. Pass the baloney. Many whites are railroaded too, ya know! nt

[gatlingforme]

150. crying wolf

too many times is not a good idea. alot of the states attorneys will railroad due to upcoming elections, black or white it does not matter

[wellst0nev0ter]

173. What Happened In The Central Park Jogger

was used as THE metaphor of the uncontrollable (black) crime rate in New York, which the likes of Rudy Giuliani exploited for political gain. Now that we know that the men were railroaded, where is the justice for them?

Or do they have to be sons of landed North Carolinian gentry for that to happen?

[Rage for Order]

24. That excuses Nifong's behavior?

I would hope that ANY prosecutor who showed such contempt for the laws he is supposed to uphold and maliciously prosecuted a high profile case for political gain, all the while knowing that there was no evidence to support said prosecution, would, at the least, face Nifong-type punishment. Just because this type of abuse happens and isn't always caught doesn't mean that it should be excused when it is caught.

[wellst0nev0ter]

50. Yes, Nifong's Behavior Is Inexcusable

It did happen to priviledged young white men, right?

[LisaL]

58. Privileged white men have the same rights as everyone else.

Appears some people think privileged white men should have less rights than others.

[wellst0nev0ter]

60. We Know That Priviledged White Men Are More Equal Than Others

It's just sad that it takes their victimization to enforce accountability in an entirely cosmetic matter.

[LisaL]

61. Well, it sure didn't look that way while Nifong was

trying to prosecute them.

[wellst0nev0ter]

62. You Know Perfectly Well

That if those players have been black, the best they could hope for was a forced apology, since the charges were dropped without making it to court. So excuse me if I see this only as a hollow victory.

[Exiled in America]

147. Injustice done to blacks does not validate injustice done to whites.

That's the flaw in your sentiment.

We should do nothing but celebrate when justice is done on behalf of privileged white men, while at the same time continue to do everything in our power to bring about the day when oppressed populations can receive the same access to justice.

That's the appropriate attitude, quite frankly.

I'm glad justice has been done here. The fact that there continues to be injustice in the world doesn't change that fact.

[wellst0nev0ter]

174. The Lack Of Justice For Blacks

At least partially invalidates the justice received by the Duke boys. Until we see more of the same going to those that have historically imprisoned blacks and other non-priviledged folks, this is simply just another exercise in the imbalance of justice.

[Exiled in America]

178. GOOD FUCKING GOD ON A POGO FUCKING STICK: DO PEOPLE *E-V-E-R* READ HERE??????

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

/rant on

This as got to be, at least the five hundredth time someone has responded to something I post with a response that makes absolutely no sense in response to what I wrote.

How hard is it to fucking read? We got a learning disability here?

Let me spell it out for you... AGAIN:

We should do nothing but celebrate when justice is done on behalf of privileged white men.....

Yes, yes but before YOU come back and post you should also read the rest of it, which says:

....while at the same time continue to do everything in our power to bring about the day when oppressed populations can receive the same access to justice.

WELL WHAT DO YA KNOW? IT APPEARS THAT I TOTALLY ACKNOWLEDGED THE IMBALANCE OF JUSTICE, AND INDICATED THAT WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO BRING ABOUT GREATER EQUALITY! *GASP!*

Invailid means "not valid: a : being without foundation or force in fact, truth, or law." There is NOTHING about the plight of anyone else that "invalidates" justice done.

Take race, class and gender away for a second. The choice to drop the prosecution against these people was the right choice - all the evidence indicates that it was the right choice. The Attorney General did the right thing.

That right act does not suddenly become wrong because somewhere a black man did not get a similar right act in his case. Nothing about that INVALIDATES the first right act. Invalidate is the wrong word.

The system is not balanced, some don't receive justice and some do. We should work to change that, but that doesn't mean bitching at or criticizing people lucky enough to get justice, or acting like somehow they don't "deserve" justice because someone else didn't get it.

We must strive for equality for all, not deride the people who already receive access to justice.

/end rant

[wellst0nev0ter]

188. Sorry, Still Not Fully Validated

Just because priviledged white folks received justice instead of the hundreds of black and other non-priviledged people doesn't mean it's time to celebrate. How do you know this is a start of a trend, or just the exception (for white folks) that proves the rule?

But nice rant, though.

[TankLV]

193. Don't let your prejudices hit you in the ass...

Godfuckingdamn...

Let INNOCENT persons suffer because some GROUP you care more about deserves justice more?!?!

god help you...

[Romulox]

73. How many innocent white guys

should be prosecuted to even up the "cosmic scale"? :crazy:

How about fighting for a justice system that is fair for everyone?

[SayWhatYo]

95. 42

[Exiled in America]

148. LOL

[wellst0nev0ter]

172. Yeah, Round Up The White Guys

Nope, instead of pointing out that the only reason why this prosecutor got what he deserved is because he used against wealthy white guys the tried and trued methods of imprisoning innocent black folks, I actually said that we needed to round up random white folks and throw away the keys.

Nice stretch of logic there, buddy :eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

189. You're being attacked by two fallacies rolled into one: Straw Man and False Dilemma.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[skater314159]

180. You know how it is with some people...

... they say they want "justice", when all they really want is "to get even". That is not justice for anyone, and it neglects mercy. Anytime that a justice system leaves behind mercy, all you will be left with is vengance.

The really ironic thing is that some people who advocate for this "justice" have never even been a victim of prejudice, hate, or crime against their person. I'm not saying that you have to have something bad happen to you before you can work for the good, but it really sucks when you have people arguing theory when you have real victims who have lived out being victims.

Working for a real justice system that treats all people equally requires real work, in the real world. I do it, and I can tell you, its tiring, frustrating and not fun some of the time. I think people enjoy being able to sit in the comfort of thier own homes and throw insults at people over percieved "slights" and cry about the "system being unfair" because it is easy. Don't even have to get up off your ass or think hard.

Anyway, thats just my two cents.

Peace :hippie:

[Romulox]

72. The problem is actually much more subtle than that...

Prosecutors are politicians who chose to try people based on the potential benefit to their careers. Prosecutors can selectively prosecute people based on their race without any apparent court-room misconduct. A perfect example is drug prosecutions. Young black men are imprisoned for drug use at a rate many times that of whites, even though studies have repeatedly shown white people use drugs at the same (or even slightly higher) rates as blacks.

[idgiehkt]

169. that makes sense

although it makes me sad to think about. What is telling is just how incredibly believable that this story is, even if it seems now to possibly be groundless. It surprises no one that this could/would happen.

[Exiled in America]

77. That's a good question. I'm glad Nifong got held accountable, but ...

I'm sure the fact that family of the people he drug through the mud had money helped ensure he got "justice."

How holds people who exploit poor people or people of the "wrong" skin color accountable?

[idgiehkt]

160. only god

and that's only if you believe in him/her/it.

[knight_of_the_star]

91. I think it was more his stupidity involved

Namely by hyping the story to the point of being a national sensation he was setting himself up for the egg on his face he deserves, if you had a poor black defendant who was similarly railroaded I would hope someone would help them out as those kids got family help to get out of this.

[Socal31]

106. So he shouldnt be punished, because the players were white....

*louder crickets*

[wellst0nev0ter]

175. Or We Didn't Have To Wait For White Players To Be Victimized

In order to take action against crooked DAs.

You know, just putting that option out there :eyes:

[idgiehkt]

159. yep

these punks were just accused, too.

[NoodleyAppendage]

10. Lession. Don't screw with Duke power elite...you will get raked over.

Nifong was wrong, but his biggest mistake was taking on the children of the wealthy. Duke holds immense political power in Durham and surrounding areas.

J

[idgiehkt]

161. true

interesting fact: Poker ace Annie Duke is the ex-wife of one of the Dukes i.e. Duke U, hence the name.

[CreekDog]

198. noodley, how many times do we have to say they weren't all wealthy

Don't lie to make your point.

[pitohui]

11. boo effing hoo

he tried to put innocent men in prison and destroy their lives for cheap publicity, i hope he never gets his license back and is never allowed to practice law again

no pity here

[defendandprotect]

13. There is no way to declare anyone "innocent" without a trial ---

We have no idea what happened that night -- but there were a hell of a lot of witnesses and one day we might know.

No one is "innocent" and neither is anyone "guilty" in this case because . . . .
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!!!

Personally, I think Nifong was aggressive and naive in his handling of this case --
and probably hasn't yet fully woken up to how aggressive the return match was!!!

[Mike Daniels]

14. Where the hell are all these witnesses and why couldn't Nifong locate them to make his case.

A cab driver verified that one of the accused was in his cab at the time of the alleged assault and Nifong attempted to put the screws to the cab driver on some long forgotten ticket.

Nifong himself said a couple of months back that there was no credible evidence to support the charges he tried to bring down on the students.

Name one witness who can collaborate the stripper's story.

[defendandprotect]

28. Witnesses were all the Duke players who were present . . ..

at some point, someone may tell us what actually happened.
Right now, we don't know.

I've heard nothing about Nifong threatening the cab driver . . .
but I have heard that the father of the guy in the cab visited the cab driver.

Nor do I think your second statement re Nifong is correct.
Nifong acknowledged -- and we all knew -- that there was no DNA evidence against these three players.

You do not require DNA evidence for a rape charge.

Unless those others alleged to have been present in the bathroom tell us, it is the victim's story vs the players' story.

As I said before . . . we don't know what happened.
But there were many, many witnesses in the frat house and at some point someone may talk.

[LisaL]

38. Oh give me a break.

A lot of the witnesses to the party have talked with the AG's investigators.
How do you think AG reached the conclusion that the accused were actually innocent?
You also don't know the facts about the DNA. There was DNA present on the woman, but it didn't match the players. It belonged to some unknown males.

[defendandprotect]

41. Talking now may not be what is said in the future . . . .

If we ever find out anything about what really happened it will be from someone who breaks the code of silence --

Again -- there was DNA, as I've said -- and as I've said it didn't belong to the accused --

Again -- you don't need DNA evidence to bring a charge of rape.

[LisaL]

45. What code of silence?

One of the accused has written a report of the party as soon as he was questioned. If you bothered to read it, it is very detailed. The other two men who lived in the house have also written reports.And Nifong was not disbarred for bringing a charge of rape without DNA evidence. And frankly, after a long investigation, AG has declared the accused innocent. The witnesses with knowledge have given testimony to the AG's investigators. So, I have no clue what it is you think you are waiting for.

[yardwork]

63. There was never a code of silence. All the players cooperated with police.

Every single one of the lacrosse players who were asked to submit DNA samples did so, long before any of them got lawyers, long before anyone was charged. Every single one of them went down to the police station and voluntarily submitted DNA samples. Why would they do this? Because they were there and they knew that no assault took place.

It's as simple as that. Do terrible things happen to women everyday? Yes! Are young men capable of heinous acts? Yes! However, in this case nobody was assaulted. There was no crime. Period. Get over it. Move on to uncovering the real crimes.

[struggle4progress]

115. No: a judge ordered the team's DNA samples after a team lawyer canceled a meeting with police

This case has produced an astonishing body of mythology

MARCH 22 Lawyers for the players cancel a meeting at which lacrosse players were going to talk with investigators and possibly provide DNA samples

http://images.usatoday.com/news/graphics/lacrosse_timeline/flash.swf

March 22: The Players inform the police that they have retained lawyers and will not be cooperating with the investigation. News & Observer

March 23: 46 of the team's 47 members comply with a judge's order to provide DNA samples and be photographed (the 47 member, an African-American, was not asked to comply since the accuser said her attackers were white). AP

http://www.dukeupdate.com/d.htm

March 22
Durham police set up a meeting with Duke lacrosse players. Hours before it was supposed to happen, the meeting is called off.

March 23
Police obtain a court order requiring 46 members of the lacrosse team to provide DNA samples.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4033086

[LisaL]

121. And your point is?

DNA found on the stripper did not match anyone on the team. By the way, I think it's a smart idea to not talk with the police unless you have a lawyer present, no matter how innocent you are. As far as I understand it, you are not obligated to give the police your DNA either, unless they obtain a court order. You have rights-use them.

[struggle4progress]

124. My point, explicitly made in #115, is: "This case has produced an astonishing body of mythology"

My #115 was in response to counterfactual claims made in #63:

Every single one of the lacrosse players .. asked to submit DNA samples did so, long before any of them got lawyers ... Every single one ... voluntarily submitted DNA samples

I didn't take any stand on whether the players should have submitted DNA without a court order: I simply pointed out, with documentation, that the above claim was mythology.

Of course, you could have discovered that for yourself, but then you would have had to read my post, before responding to it.

[LisaL]

126. I did read your post.

The players could have tried to fight this court order. In fact it was broad and overreaching-every white player on the team was ordered to submit DNA. Not everyone on the team was at the party. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it would have been kind of difficult for someone who wasn't even in Durham to commit any crimes against the stripper that night. By the way that order said that DNA results would rule out any innocent persons. Obviously when DNA results came back Nifong decided to prosecute the case the old-fashioned way. Well, we all know how well that ended up for him.

[struggle4progress]

128. The only thing that currently interests me is getting the history right

I have absolutely no interest in whether the team should have provided DNA without a court order or whether they should have fought the court order tooth and nail until they reached the Supreme Court.

Layers of noisy mythology surround this incident: I am only interested in what actually happened. G

[LisaL]

132. Oh right. Then why don't you go and find out

why Nifong was disbarred.

[struggle4progress]

135. In #115, I objected a claim in #63 was inaccurate. Your comments are all irrelevant to the objection

[yardwork]

182. That timeline is not correct. It was based on erroneous information.

In fact, note that all 46 of the players who were asked to submit DNA samples did so - on the very next day.

[knight_of_the_star]

92. You don't need DNA

But when the DNA doesn't match the DNA of the alleged rapists that kind of puts a serious wrench in any rape charge.

[CreekDog]

199. but you need other evidence to "convict"

they did charge these Duke students with rape, despite exculpatory evidence.

[yardwork]

57. Nifong had the cab driver arrested. I'd call that "threatening."

[struggle4progress]

125. Your theory is: no outstanding warrant can properly be served on anyone who is witness in some

other case?

[yardwork]

181. I advise you to look up the facts of the "outstanding warrant" against the cabbie

and reach your own conclusions about whether or not his arrest was politically motivated.

[bluestateguy]

16. That is very flawed logic

To take a case to trial, there is a requirement that a certain thresh hold of evidence be established. Nifong did not meet that thresh hold, and he in fact fabricated and falsified what evidence he did have, while hiding exculpatory evidence. So when that happens, a case should not even go to trial. There was not enough evidence to go to trial.

By your logic, anybody who is accused of anything must always stand trial, never mind the evidence. I could accuse you of some crime that I just fabricate out of thin air with no evidence, and insist on you going through the rigmarole of a trial before you can be declared innocent. That would be unfair to defendants and it would clog our court system even more than it already is.

[defendandprotect]

29. This is runaway swiftboating of Nifong -- we all knew there was no DNA evidence re 3 players --

Nor does there have to be DNA evidence to bring a charge of rape.

Everything Nifong had was made public --
Again, you don't need DNA evidence for a rape charge.

When charges are dropped, we presume there isn't evidence tying the accused to the crime.
They are not declared "innocent" by the system. Charges are simply dropped.

Nor is the victim declared "guilty" when charges are dropped.

[LisaL]

40. There was male DNA present on the woman. It just didn't match the accused.

The innocence is presumed before the trial. The prosecution had to prove guilt. At minimum, probable cause is needed to charge someone with a crime.

[defendandprotect]

42. Yes . . . who it belonged to remains a mystery -- so far.

DNA is not required to bring a charge of rape --

[bluestateguy]

47. Nothing you are saying is making any sense

And then you resort to an explanation of "well gosh, we'll just never know" to sort of muddy the waters, and cast doubt on their innocence and the factual evidence confirming that they never raped this woman. It is remarkably similar to the tactics of Fox News and the Right Wing Noise Machine when they bring dubious charges of wrongdoing by a liberal or Democrat: "I'm not saying the rumors are true, but the rumors are out there, and now I'm repeating them", or "some people say", or "Is Bill Clinton a rapist? Stay tuned for a Fair and Balanced report after the break," or what I see constantly on this board, people making excuses for bad behavior by justifying other bad behavior ("well gee, that guy was arrested for robbing a bank and stole $1000, but you know Halliburton has stolen billions with no bid contracts"--yeah, just try using that defense in court. This kind of nonsense must stop, no matter who it is that is being smeared.

I probably would never be friends with the Duke Lacrosse players, as they are not the kind of people I'd be inclined to like: uber-Alpha Males, rich kids, etc. and big partiers, but the law is not concerned with one's moral character, economic status, or any type of dumbass adolescent behavior that otherwise falls within the limits of the law.

[defendandprotect]

49. And, this couldn't be happening the other way around . . . ?

There are many things we'll never know the truth of unless someone begins to talk.
In the Tawana Brawley case there was a suicide and indications that someone wanted to tell the truth.

I never knew that the "right-wing noise machine" has framed endless athletes who have raped women?

IMO something did happen that night to this woman -- neighbors have also indicated problems at the house.
In your opinion, nothing happened.

We will find out eventually, or not --

[theredpen]

137. They framed the Clintons

I never knew that the "right-wing noise machine" has framed endless athletes who have raped women?

The RWNM has smeared Bill Clinton with at least half a dozen rapes he didn't commit.

Hillary Clinton has been accused of murdering Vince Foster.

"We'll never know what really happened in Fort Marcy Park!"

You sound like Rush Limbaugh. Seriously.

[CreekDog]

201. And she doesn't know about our legal system either

We keep tangling with her because she has said so many times that they aren't innocent because there was no trial. I think 50 of us corrected her over various threads, but here it is again. She just has her own agenda. She doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and she doesn't believe that is the law of the land (or that it should be).

[Occulus]

67. Don't you just love those Authoritarians?

Authority is always right, there simply must be "something to it" because some Authority says so, and on, and on...

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[William Tannenbaum]

76. I think the DNA

of 7 men was found on the accuser, none of whom were members of the LAX team.

[yardwork]

64. Nifong was disbarred because he did not reveal exonerating evidence.

In fact, Nifong misrepresented - lied about - the DNA evidence. He didn't reveal the exonerating evidence to the defense despite numerous requests. By law, all prosecutors MUST reveal potentially exculpatory evidence to the defense, without being asked.

Do you want rogue prosecutors hauling people off to jail for no reason? Come on.

[struggle4progress]

127. The lack of a DNA match was public knowledge in April 2006. So what "exonerating" DNA

evidence do you think Nifong hid? As far as I can tell, the woman's contemporary sexual history was otherwise irrelevant to the defense, since they would not have been allowed to use it in court anyway.

Attorneys: No DNA match
Miami Herald
April, 2006
From Miami Herald Wire Services
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmtmh/is_200604/ai_n16253510

[LisaL]

131. Do you have an idea as to why Nifong was disbarred?

Why don't you go and find out before posting? What count is Nifong upset about? If as you claim there was no exonerating DNA evidence, why exactly was Nifong disbarred? Why don't you tell us.

[struggle4progress]

134. I asked a specific question and provided a factual link indicating time-frame.

I am attempting to discern whether he really withheld DNA evidence exonerating team members, as claimed in the post to which I was responding.

The link I provided shows that within a few weeks everyone knew there was no DNA match: so Nifong did not withhold that information. It is completely unclear to me exactly what DNA evidence allegedly withheld by Nifong exonerated team members and how it exonerated them.

If you can shed useful light, backed up by evidence, on such matters, please feel free to do so. But I am not interested in discussing here such question asm whether Nifong was properly or improperly disbarred. As I have explained to you elsewhere in this thread, I think considerable mythology surrounds this case. I am disinterested in most of the noise. I think it important now to provide an accurate history.

[LisaL]

136. Why don't you read Nifong's disbarment order then?

It's on the side panel in a PDF form.
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_safety/duke_lacrosse/nifong/story/634851.html

[struggle4progress]

153. The Final Disciplinary Order does not address the question I asked: as rape shield laws

prevent discussion in court of a rape complainant's personal sexual history, the complainant's other experiences were irrelevant. The claim Nifong withheld exonerating DNA evidence is mythological: "irrelevant" is just not the same as "exonerating."

And, as just I said in my immediately prior post, I am not interested in discussing here such question as whether Nifong was properly or improperly disbarred

[LisaL]

154. Rape shield laws are not absolute. There are a number of

exceptions to these laws, under which sexual behavior of the accusers can come in. For instance, the judge in Kobe Bryant's case ruled that his accuser's sexual behavior within 72 hours would be allowed.
http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/kobe040723.htm
So, please, don't make claims that DNA from unknown men found on the stripper would be irrelevant. If this ever got anywhere near a trial, the judge would have made a ruling on what was allowed and what wasn't. And I have no interest whatsoever in discussing with you whether Nifong was properly or improperly disbarred.

[struggle4progress]

158. I object to the mythology that "Nifong withheld exonerating DNA evidence"

While providing no reason to think that the claim "Nifong withheld exonerating DNA evidence" has any merit, you apparently object to my objecting to this.

Yawn ... :zzz:

[LisaL]

162. What you say makes no sense to me.

I find it hard to understand how you can claim it is a mythology, when it (the withholding of potentially exculpatory evidence), in part, resulted in Nifong's disbarment.

[CreekDog]

97. they are presumed innocent

when the charges are dropped or they are not convicted or they do not plead guilty, this presumption of innocence continues.

Got it? If not, try China or Russia, they like that 'not innocent unless proven so in a trial' stuff.

[CreekDog]

200. defend, dammit, you UN-learned this again

They are NOT DELCARED INNOCENT because they are innocent.

In a trial, not guilty doesn't declare innocence either.

You are seriously reverting back to your previous non-understanding of our legal system. If you going to keep posting about this please put a disclaimer annoucing your PROUD ignorance of the Innocent until Proven Guilty system.

[Igel]

18. Juries can return a verdict of 'innocent'?

Who knew?

Must have been one of those little-known Patriot Act provisions. Or in the Military Commission Act.

It wasn't there a year ago.

About the best you do is have somebody look over the evidence and find that there's not even cause enough to ask a jury to return a 'not guilty' verdict.

[defendandprotect]

30. If a jury declares a defendant "not guilty" . . . we presume "innocent" --

[LisaL]

37. There is no need for a trial to presume innocence.

In fact all the accused are presumed innocent unless proven guilty.

[depakid]

65. Maybe you do- but I sure don't

Nor should any rational person.

Not guilty is exactly what it says- guilt wasn't proved beyond a reasonable doubt. A far cry from "innocent," as we saw with the OJ case.

[BadgerLaw2010]

89. Not guilty certainly does not mean innocent.

Now you're clearly just making things up to try to suit your agenda that "something happened", despite the fact the NC AG investigated this and found there was no crime.

The only thing "not guilty" means is that the state could not prove its claim beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a very high standard. This is why the NC AG specifically declared that the individuals in this case were innocent - the charge was determined to be fake.

[CreekDog]

98. A jury's "not guilty" verdict does not change their legal status

It was presumed innocent before the verdict and unless the verdict changes that, the same presumption carries afterwards.

Civics anybody?!

[yardwork]

21. Actually, the State Bar declared the accused "innocent"

due to the total lack of evidence of any crime having taken place.

I would be the first to defend this case if it were defensible, but it is not. The unfortunate truth is that Nifong had three men arrested with absolutely no evidence that any crime ever took place. There isn't even the say-so of the accuser, since she changed her story so many times it is impossible to believe anything she says. Further, the hospital's careful examination of her body the night of the supposed event yielded no evidence of rape or assault. I've read the hospital report. Nifong never did, evidently.

[defendandprotect]

31. The hospital records indicate "rape" --

The three players were arrested based on identification by the victim.
The victim and the female with her at the time have changed their stories --
which would lead me to suspect trauma and/or intimidation.

To suggest that Nifong was unfamiliar with the evidence is nonsense --
the hospital reports indicate "rape" --

[LisaL]

39. Do you have any idea as to why Nifong was actually

disbarred?

[defendandprotect]

43. The charges against Nifong don't match up with the record of what happened . . ..

There are distortions, misconceptions and what appear to be lies involved in the charges against Nifong. And, Nifong seemed to be behaving very strangely; basically not defending himself.

We'll see what happens in future --

Right now, he seems to be waking up a bit --

[yardwork]

55. Your statement doesn't match the facts.

[yardwork]

54. No, they don't. Nifong said that they did, but they don't.

I've read the hospital reports, which were shared with the public.

[Common Sense Party]

108. Um, no. The alleged victim's STORY was "rape"

The hospital examination didn't find evidence of rape

[LisaL]

22. WTF are you talking about?

Have you ever heard of a presumption of innocence? The burden of proof is on the prosecution.
As for there being a lot of witnesses-do read AG Coopers' report.
No witnesses supported these accusations.
I have no clue WTF you think you are going to know one day.

[defendandprotect]

33. A presumption of innocence is not a declaration of innocence --

a declaration of innocence may come after a jury trial.

[LisaL]

35. How does a declaration of innocence come after a jury trial?

The jury has an option of guilty or not guilty.
There is no declaration of innocence that comes after a jury trial.

[theredpen]

138. You are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That makes the players innocent. n/t

[TankLV]

195. The DNA test PROVES them INNOCENT, not merely "not guilty"...

[Rage for Order]

25. The North Carolina Attorney General disagrees with you

As Attorney General Roy Cooper dismissed sexual assault and kidnapping charges against Dave Evans, 24, Reade Seligmann, 21, and Collin Finnerty, 20, on Wednesday, he sharply criticized Nifong's handling of a case that put the accused men, Durham and Duke University under a harsh spotlight.

"We believe that these cases were the tragic result of a rush to accuse and a failure to verify serious allegations," Cooper said. "Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges."

Cooper's declaration that the three were innocent -- a word prosecutors rarely use -- brought a long-awaited freedom for men who lived the past year under the threat of decades in prison.

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/563248.html

[defendandprotect]

34. The accused are not "innocent" any more than the victim is "guilty" . . ..

Whatever is "believed" . . . . by those dropping the charges.

Again -- time will tell -- maybe decades before we know.

[LisaL]

36. I have absolutely no idea what you think you are possibly going

to know after decades. Why do you need decades to know something? This sounds ridiculous to me.
Time will tell? How is it going to tell and what? Under which scenario can you even envision time telling something after decades?

[defendandprotect]

44. Ever heard of "truth" hearings -- it's probably the most basic way to find out . . ..

what really happened --

What I am saying to you is that we will have to see what happens . . .

Someone may break the team's code of silence --

IMO, something obviously did happen that night --

And, I think the pictures of the "stripper" are a good clue to that fact.

[LisaL]

46. Again, what code of silence?

And I am done arguing about it. Read AG's report.

[theredpen]

139. The Duke Lacrosse Team was an INSIDE JOB!!1!!! This is HUGH! n/t

[marions ghost]

71. there is still some doubt

& we most likely never know the absolute truth in this case.

Nifong made mistakes. Big mistakes. But there are still questions that remain unanswered.

Just cause for reasonable doubt is all I'm sayin.

Whoever wants to believe that justice was done here...OK go ahead and believe that. I say we just don't know the whole truth, and that happens with more cases than most people realize.

[Dr. Strange]

75. Mistakes?

Nifong made mistakes. Big mistakes.

Made mistakes...or broke the law? Pretty big difference in my book.

But there are still questions that remain unanswered.

That may very well be the case, but I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea of putting people in jail because there are "unanswered questions." Sounds a little too much like the kind of rationalizing that gets done in Gitmo: "these guys may or may not be terrorists, but there are too many unanswered questions to just let them go."

[marions ghost]

78. there was no trial

We still have those in America.

Why do you automatically assume they would go to jail? :shrug:

[Dr. Strange]

79. I'm not assuming that they would (or should) go to jail.

I'm saying that if Nifong had gotten his way, then (in my opinion) they would have ended up in jail.

If that had happened, then (in your opinion) would that have been a good thing?

[marions ghost]

81. See it's all about opinions

when there's no trial.

They were lucky to get an overzealous prosecutor who screwed up but I don't equate that to the outcome of a trial.

The accused wouldn't have ended up in jail necessarily. No matter how inept Nifong might be, I don't believe he would seek to incarcerate innocent people for no reason. Where's the motive? He's been made into a villain. For all his glaring faults I don't think he is that.

There are more cases than people realize that end up curtailed like this but it doesn't make national news. The big media involvement in this case was damaging to all concerned.

I'm just saying we have no real way of knowing. It's all speculation. Heads had to roll and they did. People still believe different things about it based on their own perspective. That's the way it goes.

[BadgerLaw2010]

93. You misunderstand the criminal justice system.

You only bother *having* a trial if you have probable cause, which is meant to prevent the prosecution of factually innocent defendents. If exculpatory evidence surfaces after the preliminary hearing/indictment (where the state shows probable cause), the case is supposed to be dismissed or dropped.

Beyond probable cause, there's only a trial if the prosecutor believes he has a good chance of proving the case beyond a reasonable doubt. Weak cases shouldn't be brought. It's an ethical violation, and it's also a bad idea if your suspect is pretty obviously guilty but you don't have the evidence to prove it. The last thing you want in that case is for him to be found "not guilty" because you can never bring that charge again.

In our system, innocence is presumed until proven otherwise.

[CreekDog]

99. Yes they are innocent

You are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

What on earth is so complicated about our legal system that you cannot get this through your head despite so many people telling you over and over and over and over and over and over and over, yes, really, that many times, over again.

So, stop saying the incorrect thing and move on to your next point.

[TankLV]

70. Yes - they were INNOCENT - the DNA was NONE of theirs.

Unlike other cases, in this case - THEY WERE PROVEN INNOCENT, not merely "not guilty" - but INNOCENT - just like the DNA proved the countless men found falsly guilty of rape and worse were also PROVEN INNOCENT.

Now that lying skank had semen from about a DOZEN different men - NONE of whom were any of those INNOCENT boys...so we DO know that at a minimum she was a WHORE and SKANK - and a LYING one at that...

[idgiehkt]

163. wow

no wonder they wanted to skin her and ejaculate on her or whatever. Yep, put her to death.

[TankLV]

196. Now that is YOUR prejudiced, man hating OPINION not in any way shape or form validate by the FACTS..

This BITCH was a LYING WHORE. That much we DO know.

That some here can continually DEFEND this vile creature is beyond me...

[BadgerLaw2010]

88. Yeah, there is. It's called not bringing charges on a BS complaint.

Prosecutors aren't supposed to attempt to invent crimes that have to be proven "not guilty" at trial.

By your logic I could accuse you of murder and you would never be innocent unless you won a trial - in which case, you would simply be "not guilty."

[CreekDog]

100. You are both "not guilty" and "presumed innocent"

You are presumed innocent before any trial that declares you "not guilty" thus, you were presumed innocent all along.

stop with the ignorance!

[CreekDog]

96. Not again, they are declared innocent because they are presumed innocent

unless a they plead guilty or a jury declares them guilty.

Such a common misunderstanding of our legal system.

[skater314159]

141. You don't understand American justice system...

... Americans are innocent *until proven guilty*. Thank you very much.

No trial is needed to show innocence.

If you prefer to live in a country where one must prove their innocence, I would also like to inform you that such countries aren't too hot on free speech either.

[Exiled in America]

149. You are totally, utterly wrong.

Statement from North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper on the Duke University lacrosse rape case.

Good afternoon, everyone.

On Jan. 13 of this year, I accepted the request of the Durham district attorney to take over three Durham cases. At the time, I promised a fresh and thorough review of the facts and a decision on the best way to proceed. I also said that we would have our eyes wide open to the evidence, but that we would have blinders on for all other distractions. We've done all of these things.

During the past 12 weeks, our lawyers and investigators have reviewed the remaining allegations of sexual assault and kidnapping that resulted from a party on March 13, 2006, in Durham, N.C.

We have carefully reviewed the evidence collected by the Durham County prosecutor's office and the Durham Police Department. We have also conducted our own interviews and evidence gathering. Our attorneys and SBI (State Bureau of Investigation) agents have interviewed numerous people who were at the party, DNA and other experts, the Durham County district attorney, Durham police officers, defense attorneys and the accusing witness on several occasions. We have reviewed statements given over the past year, photographs, records and other evidence.

The result of our review and investigation shows clearly that there is insufficient evidence to proceed on any of the charges. Today we are filing notices of dismissal for all charges against Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans.

The result is that these cases are over, and no more criminal proceedings will occur.

We believe that these cases were the result of a tragic rush to accuse and a failure to verify serious allegations. Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges.

We approached this case with the understanding that rape and sexual assault victims often have some inconsistencies in their accounts of a traumatic event. However, in this case, the inconsistencies were so significant and so contrary to the evidence that we have no credible evidence that an attack occurred in that house that night.

The prosecuting witness in this case responded to questions and offered information. She did want to move forward with the prosecution.

However, the contradictions in her many versions of what occurred and the conflicts between what she said occurred and other evidence, like photographs and phone records, could not be rectified.

Our investigation shows that:

The eyewitness identification procedures were faulty and unreliable. No DNA confirms the accuser's story. No other witness confirms her story. Other evidence contradicts her story. She contradicts herself. Next week, we'll be providing a written summary of the important factual findings and some of the specific contradictions that have led us to the conclusion that no attack occurred.

In this case, with the weight of the state behind him, the Durham district attorney pushed forward unchecked. There were many points in the case where caution would have served justice better than bravado. And in the rush to condemn, a community and a state lost the ability to see clearly. Regardless of the reasons this case was pushed forward, the result was wrong. Today, we need to learn from this and keep it from happening again to anybody.

Now, we have good district attorneys in North Carolina who are both tough and fair. And we need these forceful, independent prosecutors to put criminals away and protect the public. But we also need checks and balances to protect the innocent. This case shows the enormous consequences of overreaching by a prosecutor. What has been learned here is that the internal checks on a criminal charge—sworn statements, reasonable grounds, proper suspect photo lineups, accurate and fair discovery—all are critically important.

Therefore, I propose a law that the North Carolina Supreme Court have the authority to remove a case from a prosecutor in limited circumstances. This would give the courts a new tool to deal with a prosecutor who needs to step away from a case where justice demands.

I want to thank everyone in the North Carolina Department of Justice. I want to thank our investigators, our SBI agents and especially attorneys Jim Coman and Mary Winstead for their hard work in this matter.

I'll take some of your questions now.

That's pretty conclusive..... its funny how much some people WANT it to be some other way than what it is. Did you read the part that says NO OTHER WITNESSES CONFIRM HER STORY.

Oh and, are you aware of the fact that there WAS DNA evidence and DNA from the INNOCENT boys DID NOT MATCH - part of what Nifong is in trouble for is suppressing those findings.

This isn't confusing. It's clear as freaking day. Please don't make the same arguments creationists do when denying / ignoring the overwhelming evidence for evolution.

[TankLV]

194. They were INNOCENT. The DNA evidence proves that.

Just like the hundreds of poor INNOCENT black men who were finally set free due to DNA testing and reopening their cases...

[bamacrat]

19. He shouldn't be allowed to practice law anywhere.

:nopity:

[LisaL]

27. He's been disbarred. I think it means he can't practice law

in all the states.

[bamacrat]

69. Oh, I thought he could still apply in other states. n/t

[BadgerLaw2010]

90. He could apply. He'd be de facto rejected, though.

There's something called a "character and fitness" standard, where the burden is on the *applicant* to prove they meet it. Being disbarred for gross misconduct sort of rules that one out.

His law career is over.

[CreekDog]

101. So should some people on this thread that keep saying

They aren't innocent unless they get declared "not guilty" in a trial.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[defendandprotect]

48. Doctor & Nurse said "injuries consistent with rape" . . . ..

Now . . . this certainly isn't a victim-friendly report . . .

And, additionally, the after-facts . . . i.e., vibrator . . . . are new to me though I've been looking at the case for quite some time . . . first I've seen that report.

There's a very interesting website which runs a time line with a lot of facts but can't locate it right now.

The Ryan McFayden letter is, of course, highly incriminating -- when supposedly NOTHING happened.



Hospital
She was then admitted to Duke University Medical Center and received treatment for genital injuries which a doctor and nurse said were consistent with rape according to the Seattle Times. <11> However, according to Fox News, defense sources told them that the forensic nurse "did not find abrasions, tears or bleeding in the vaginal area, which is often present in forcible rapes. They say she did find swelling in the vaginal area along with tenderness in the accuser's breasts and lower right quadrant." <8> In addition, it has been reported that the accuser admitted to Durham police detective Benjamin Himan that she performed using a vibrator for a couple in a hotel room shortly before the lacrosse party. The defense contends that this by itself could account for the "diffuse edema" that was found on the accuser's vaginal walls by the sexual assault nurse-in-training at the Duke Hospital.

McFadyen e-mail
A couple of hours after the alleged incident, Ryan McFadyen, a member of the team and a Delbarton School alumnus, sent an email to other players saying that he planned to "have some strippers over" and made references to "killing the bitches," then cutting off their skin while ejaculating "in Duke-issue spandex."

The e-mail was provided to Durham police by a confidential source who received the correspondence from the player's Duke e-mail account at 1:58 AM on March 14. The player's defense attorney has called this a "vile" email. The players suggest that the e-mail was conceived as humorous irony. Administrators say the email was an imitation of a character in the Bret Easton Ellis novel American Psycho. McFadyen was not indicted of any crime, but was suspended from the university due to safety concerns.<12> However, on June 29, 2006, the university reinstated him.<13>

Aftermath
The prosecution then ordered 46 of the 47 team members to provide DNA samples (the lone black member was exempt since the accuser had stated that her attackers were white), though some members were absent from the party. On Monday, April 10, it was revealed that DNA testing failed to connect any of the 46 tested members of the Duke University men's lacrosse team to the alleged sexual assault. <14> After the initial rounds of testing done by the state crime lab were completed, the district attorney sought the services of a private laboratory (DNA Security of Burlington) to conduct additional tests. In this case, there was some DNA found inside the alleged victim from "a single male source", proving that she did have sex with someone. <15> It has been reported that this DNA was from her boyfriend. <16> <17> <18> The tests from the private laboratory alone cost taxpayers almost $23,000.<19>

DNA from a broken fake fingernail from the alleged victim, retrieved from the trash at the scene of the crime, shows some "similar characteristics" to a third Duke team member who owns the house. <20> Defense attorneys have suggested that any DNA present may have come from the tissue paper, cotton swabs or other hygiene related trash that had been in the garbage can along with the fingernail. The DA has stated that the lack of DNA is not unusual, considering that 75-80% of all sexual assault cases lack DNA evidence.<15>

http://www.duiki.com/wiki/Lacrosse_scandal

[LisaL]

56. How is that e-mail highly incriminating? Nonsense.

It was written after the party, and it says nothing about rape.
What is it incriminating of?
And please notice in case you didn't the player who wrote that e-mail was never charged with anything. So, again, WTF is it incriminating of?

[defendandprotect]

83. Your effort to not see the implications of the e-mail makes much of what else you say . . . .

prejudiced in behalf of the team.

BEFORE details were known of the charges of rape to be filed . . . .
but AFTER the alledged incident . . .

A team member e-mailed to other players that he "planned to have some stripper over and made references to killing the bitches, then cutting off their skin while ejaculting in Duke-issue spandex."

Police were informed by a "confidential source" -- student was suspended.

According to you, there would be no concern for the similarities between the aggressive impulses of this student towards "strippers" -- with death, torture and sexual fantacies prevailing?

Meanwhile, other "strippers" who have also performed at Duke frat houses say that they always took body guards with them.


QUOTE:
McFadyen e-mail
A couple of hours after the alleged incident, Ryan McFadyen, a member of the team and a Delbarton School alumnus, sent an email to other players saying that he planned to "have some strippers over" and made references to "killing the bitches," then cutting off their skin while ejaculating "in Duke-issue spandex."

The e-mail was provided to Durham police by a confidential source who received the correspondence from the player's Duke e-mail account at 1:58 AM on March 14. The player's defense attorney has called this a "vile" email. The players suggest that the e-mail was conceived as humorous irony. Administrators say the email was an imitation of a character in the Bret Easton Ellis novel American Psycho. McFadyen was not indicted of any crime, but was suspended from the university due to safety concerns.<12> However, on June 29, 2006, the university reinstated him.<13>

[LisaL]

105. There is no implications to this e-mail.

Are you even aware that the AG of the state looked over all the evidence and determined that the evidence does not support the strippers' accusations and the accused are innocent? It does not look to me that you are aware of the facts.

[idgiehkt]

165. the implication is that

the dude who wrote it is a complete asshole and a budding psychopath. Ick.

[yardwork]

66. What are you quoting from? The doctor said that the injuries were NOT consistent with rape.

Nifong lied about what was in the report. You're reading very early reports. When the public finally saw the actual hospital report, it was NOTHING like what Nifong said.

You were hoodwinked by Nifong. So were a lot of other people.

[defendandprotect]

84. Doctor and Nurse who examined victim said "injuries consistent with rape" ---

In fact, there was nothing but attempts to distort the information in the original hospital records.

And, I was, of course, quoting from the LINK I supplied with my comments . . .

http://www.duiki.com/wiki/Lacrosse_scandal

[skater314159]

140. In forensic pathology...

... "consistent with" does not imply "was caused by"... do no confuse "consistency" and "causation" please.

In fact, there was nothing but attempts to distort the information in the original hospital records.

Can you cite these "distortions" of "the information in the original hospital records" for us please?

If you have found places where hospital records are falsified, or are clearly altered, you should notify the State's Medical Board. Hospital records are subject to strict rules and regulations stipulating what must be recorded, when, by whom, and how. I think that you have not uncovered anything new, nor do you understand the evidence that is there.

Why are you so intent on supporting false claims? Do you support accusing men of crimes that they did not commit - even when forensic evidence proves those men innocent? What are you *really* angry about? I don't think it's this case.

Peace. :hippie:

[idgiehkt]

166. do they ever say "caused by"

directly?

just curious. On tv they always seem to say 'consistent with unless the have something left in the body like a bullet or knife frament.

:popcorn:

[sakabatou]

53. Does someone need a waaaaaaaambulence?

[KamaAina]

110. Quick! Pull over! Here it comes...

[NaturalHigh]

59. Let me get out my violin.

Nifong deserves no sympathy after the crap he pulled in this case. He should do hard time, as should Crystal Mangum for making up the story and trying to frame three innocent men.

[Mike Daniels]

68. If Nifong had gone after three black men for supposedly raping a white stripper

and used the same flimsy evidence to prove his case would people still even be trying to defend Nifong and claiming that that truth will eventually come out?

It's becoming increasingly obvious that anyone who continues to defend Nifong isn't interested in justice but just wants to see some rich white people go to prison for something they didn't do.

[NaturalHigh]

82. Very true.

I would add my opinion that some who have posted on this subject over the past year really want to see men (regardless of their guilt or innocence) go to jail, if only for symbolic reasons (striking a blow against the "patriarchy").

[ecstatic]

133. I don't know, but I'm sure he wouldn't have been disbarred for that nt

[tammywammy]

74. Would he like a little cheese with that WHINE n/t

[JPZenger]

80. Hiding Evidences from the Defense

Regardless of all of his other mistakes, the worst was withholding important evidence from the defense that helped to prove the innocence of the accused. That by itself was reason for disbarrment.

[defendandprotect]

85. Looks like a "swiftboating" charge against Nifong ---

Nifong made clear that there was no DNA evidence against the three students --

There is no DNA required for a charge of rape --

[LisaL]

86. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat that.

That is not what the charge against Nifong was. While no DNA is required to charge someone with rape, DA has to turn over the results of DNA testing to the defense. Nifong should have turned over the results of DNA tests that showed DNA from males not matching the accused was found on the stripper.

[defendandprotect]

87. We all knew there was NO DNA. How can it be that the defense didn't . . . that's why .. ..

I am saying this is "swiftboating" of Nifong --

and also Nifong looks as though he's been put into a "swiftboating" trance --

seemed speechless in his own defense but perhaps waking up now???

And, as I recall it, Nifong has repeated that the information was out there --

as far as I can see, we were all aware. Only the defense didn't know?

And I think some of the DNA still isn't identified-- ???

[knight_of_the_star]

94. Here's something to consider

The so-called victim in this case was, by her own admission, someone who worked for an escort service. Maybe the other DNA has something to do with the job she had at the time

[defendandprotect]

102. Fox said that some of the DNA belonged to her boyfriend --

that's the only source I've heard that from so far.
There is other DNA which isn't identified.

So, what you're saying is she is completely confused and nothing happened at the frat house?

And she just happened to be at the frat house BECAUSE she works in the sex/escort industry --

Therfore, that must mean that she couldn't be raped -- ???

[LisaL]

104. Bingo. There is DNA that is not identified. The potentially

exculpatory evidence that should have been turned over to the defense in a timely manner.
Do you get it that in alleged rape cases, if DNA isn't matching the accused, the prosecutor has to turn over the results of that testing to the defense? Do you get it that men have been set free through DNA testing when it was determined DNA found in their accusers did not match them?

[defendandprotect]

116. I'm repeating what has been KNOWN . . . .. . by everyone -- !

Everything I'm reciting to you is on the record -- everyone knew it!

And, you don't seem to be "getting it" that the case here involved many individuals so the fact that the DNA didn't match three accused is irrelevant.

PLUS the three accused could have raped/penetrated the victim in some way without leaving DNA.
DNA is not required in a rape charge.

You should also "get it" that in the cases of rape that you are referring to where someone was accused of being a rapist based solely on eye-witness identification -- and where there was one rapist -- and no way to test DNA evidence at the time . . . .

that LATER, these males were set free because the DNA could then be tested and it did not match.

That's entirely different from this case where there were multiple penetrations -- anal, oral, vaginal -- and washing of the orifices -- and what looks like a gang rape.

[LisaL]

123. Nonsense.

This case is over and done. The accused were actually declared innocent by the AG. Nifong, the prosecutor who attempted to prosecute these men, was disbarred over his conduct in this case. Yet here you are babbling something about multiple penetrations and such. Do you know that state's AG declared that no credible evidence exist to support strippers' accusations? So, WTF are you talking about?

[defendandprotect]

130. The case will never be "over" now . . ..

An AG can give his opinion -- and defendants remain "innocent" unless proven guilty --
but there was no trial. Charges were simply dropped.

As I've been saying, there seems to be trumped up charges against Nifong --
He made it quite clear that the DNA evidence did NOT match the three accused.
And, after the charges were brought, he repeated that.

Later, he seemed to go into a coma or something -- and hasn't looked much like he was ready
to defend himself. As far as anyone can see, he didn't fight these charges at all.

My "babbling" over penetrations is what was claimed by the victim -- perhaps you didn't know that?

Still the claims of the victim will remain for the records and we will see what further information the future brings.

And I would say there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence to suggest that something did happen at the frat house that night.

Other females from "escort services" who have been requested to appear at Duke have actually brought body guards with them.

[yardwork]

111. Nothing happened at the lacrosse house. That appears to be correct.

No sexual assault occurred there.

Women are assaulted all the time at parties like this. Why don't you focus your attention on those cases? This one is a dead end.

[defendandprotect]

117. There were disturbances noted at the house - and an unusual and abrupt closing down of the house . .

plus at least one neighbor observed racist name-calling.

Also -- I'd point to the photographs of the stripper in what looks like a drugged state -- with a time line, no less!!! --- probably having been done as a cover-up.

[yardwork]

145. You are determined to twist the facts to match your preconceived idea of what happened.

There is no point in talking with you about this. Your mind is made up and the facts aren't going to change it.

[defendandprotect]

156. Are you really trying to suggest that there weren't disturbances at the frat house . .. . ???

That at least one neighbor was witness to racial slurs being shouted at one of the dancers????

[yardwork]

177. 1: It wasn't a frat house.

2. I absolutely believe the neighbors' reports of the racist and sexist slurs. These slurs were reported by everybody involved.
3. I don't think that there was a sexual assault at the lacrosse house, based on the hospital report, which indicates no evidence of sexual assault or physical assault of any kind.
4. The fact that everybody involved - including many of the lacrosse players themselves, the other stripper, the accuser, and the neighbors - all confirm, in consistent reports, hearing the slurs suggests, all by itself, that those witnesses are reliable. Therefore, the fact that nobody but the accuser reports any evidence or suggestion of sexual assault, is strong circumstantial evidence that none took place.

In other words, the reports of observers are remarkably consistent. The men at the party that night were rude, racist, sexist, boorish, and made threatening comments to the strippers they had hired. Further, they all admit that alcohol was served to underage students. Further, they hired strippers while pretending to be Duke baseball players, because they knew that the party was in violation of their coach's rules. All these behaviors were disgraceful and shameful. Personally, I think that the lacrosse team deserved to have their season cancelled, as it was. I think that the Duke administrators who covered up for the players' long-time bad behavior are also at fault. It's not clear to me that the coach was at fault, since apparently he didn't know about some of his players' bad behavior, since it was covered up by the administration in the months and years leading up to the events of March 2006. I don't know, though.

It's clear that Duke students, especially lacrosse players, had been behaving very badly in that neighborhood for years. Vomiting and urinating in people's yards. Public drunkenness. Drunken fights and arguments in the middle of the night. Suggestions of OTHER parties where women may have, in fact, been sexually abused.

However, there is no evidence that any sexual assault occurred on the night in question in March, 2006. There is plenty of evidence that at least one of the three men arrested on these serious felony charges had never participated in any sexual assaults on anyone, and was in fact not even at the party when the stripper said that the assault took place. It's clear that the accuser's story has changed dozens of times. It's clear that there is no evidence of sexual assault at that party.

[defendandprotect]

185. OK . . . so you confirm reports of racist/sexist slurs ---

You're in denial, however, of the HOSPITAL REPORT which I included above --
and wherein the doctor and the nurse say that the victim's injuries are "consisten with rape."

The only actual "witnesses" to the rape would have been those who raped the victim inside the bathroom. However, some other teammates may have been aware that something was going on -- or even previously planned -- IF YOU LOOK AT THE E-MAIL SENT RIGHT AFTER THE ATTACK.

Additionally, the second dancer testified at one point that given the condition of the victim she could only conclude that something had happened.

You conclude by reciting the overall behavior of the teammates as questionable --
and threatening. Other females who offered sexual entertainment have made clear that they never went without bodyguards.

What the victim originally indicated was that she was gang raped --
some members may have blocked her from exiting -- some may have forced her towards the bathroom?
In those cases they wouldn't technically be guilty of rape. She cited larger numbers at first.
Her descriptions of what happened in the bathroom seem to suggest that there were more than three attackers. If she was drugged -- and she certainly looks drugged in the photographs --- then details might not be clear. Presumably, even drugged she remembered some faces.

The victim's condition on leaving the party vs her condition on arrival suggest that something happened. The second dancer at one point made clear that she felt something had happened.

The rowdiness outside of the house also suggests that there was something going on --
something with racial overtones --

And the e-mail later that night pretty much makes clear what at least one teammate was thinking . . . which seems to mimic some of the threats the victim says she faced that night.



QUOTE . . .
"The men at the party that night were rude, racist, sexist, boorish, and made threatening comments to the strippers they had hired. Further, they all admit that alcohol was served to underage students. Further, they hired strippers while pretending to be Duke baseball players, because they knew that the party was in violation of their coach's rules. All these behaviors were disgraceful and shameful.

It's clear that Duke students, especially lacrosse players, had been behaving very badly in that neighborhood for years. Vomiting and urinating in people's yards. Public drunkenness. Drunken fights and arguments in the middle of the night. Suggestions of OTHER parties where women may have, in fact, been sexually abused.

However, there is no evidence that any sexual assault occurred on the night in question in March, 2006. There is plenty of evidence that at least one of the three men arrested on these serious felony charges had never participated in any sexual assaults on anyone, and was in fact not even at the party when the stripper said that the assault took place. It's clear that the accuser's story has changed dozens of times. It's clear that there is no evidence of sexual assault at that party. "

[MaraJade]

191. Precisely

women ARE assaulted all the time at parties like that. But after this, those cases will disappear. The number of sexual assaults on campus or in off-campus housing will actually drop. The number will drop because all cases except those where a woman is beaten within an inch of her life or murdered, will be dismissed.

Now, because of this idiot DA, no one will believe any woman. It will be open season on female students. Lowlifes like these boys won't even have to call an escort service to find some drug addict to abuse anymore. If a fellow female student is gullible or desperate enough to attend one of these little soirees, they will drag her into a room and defile her, and when she calls for help, she won't be believed. They won't even have to bother will drugs. As long as they don't beat her face in it will all be okay. And all because of Nifong.

[skater314159]

143. No.

Here is what *I* am saying:

1. Fox lied. She made a false rape report. She falsely accused men of a crime they did NOT commit.

2. Yes she is a stripper... but you seem to be the one bringing that up continually. Her job/profession is not relevant to her being assaulted or raped.

3. Ms. Fox's actions now make it harder for others who work in the sex and/or escort industry, as they can now point to her and say things about these women and men not being trustworthy. She has worsened the cause of these individuals. If you want to be angry at someone, why not be angry at her. She has defamed the sex industry and sex workers.

You need to think about who/what you are *Really* angry about. It is not this thread. It is not this case. I recommend that you get counseling or talk to a friend about your anger.

We at DU are here to support you. We are not your enemies.

Peace :hippie:

[MaraJade]

192. She was a mentally disturbed woman,

a drug user and bipolar. She was so stoned at the time that she barely even knew where she was.

Figures. Drug use and mental illness are very common among people who work in the sex industry. It's common knowledge, for example, that many women who become strippers or prostitutes were sexually or physically abused as children. They commonly have a warped view of sex and men. Many women who are strippers or prostitutes are actually man haters who despise sex with men and who and do the work to take financial advantage of men. In my locality, there was a stripper who had HIV and regularly had sex with her customers just to get revenge. By the time the police caught up with her, a number of men (and possibly their wives) had been affected. Many of such women are involved in the sex industry to support their drug or alcohol habits.

The plain fact is that people who are under the influence don't typically remember anything accurately.

Of course, she could have been a victim of rape. And penetration is not necessary for rape to have occurred. For example, if bukkake had been performed on her, that's rape, but there would have been no DNA detected in her body. Something bad happened in the frat house, that's clear. These boys ordered her services and maybe they weren't okay with the sloppy seconds so they decided to do something else to her. Disgusting!

But she'd had other clients on that same day. It is clear that at least one of
them took advantage of her. Given her mental illness and intoxication it is clear that total confusion set in. If I were the DA, I would have dismissed her complaint on the outset on the basis of that alone. All that would have been necessary was to follow her
total activities for the day and it would have been clear that she didn't know who she had had sex with or even where. The follow-up DNA test would have confirmed that assumption. The evidence proved that several different men had been with her that day.

[yardwork]

112. Considering that her driver stated that she had sex with numerous johns that weekend

the source of the DNA isn't hard to figure out.

[defendandprotect]

118. So, therefore, it would be impossible to rape a hooker -- ????

[skater314159]

144. Why is this belief so important to you? n/t

[defendandprotect]

155. Why is the question so unimportant to you -- ???

If jurors and those hoping for justice are prejudiced against a victim because she was a involved in providing sexual services -- from "dancing" to "escort services" and all that may be involved in that --then it would be impossible for them to fairly judge whether she was the victim of a gang rape or not.

[skater314159]

179. Why "impossible"?

Do you believe that certain individuals cannot be enlightened or taught?

Rather than griping here on a forum, maybe it would be better if you employ your ire and direct your anger towards individuals IRL. Take you message to the streets.

Griping here about beliefs and ideologies does nothing to further the cause that you are espousing. If you want changes to be made, *YOU* must take action. Griping never accomplished anything.

Also, verbal attacks make your cause look weak. Just a tip there.

Finally, it helps if the "victim" you advocate is not a perpetrator of lies and injustice herself. Just because someone is a woman and cries "rape" does not mean a crime has happened; women lie also. Supporting liars doesn't help those of us who *are* REAL VICTIMS of REAL CRIMES.

Peace :hippie:

[defendandprotect]

186. Good job ignoring the question --- !!!!

Much of what you are saying is garbled and makes me wonder if you know what you are debating here?

If you have suffered verbal attacks, you must be talking to yourself --

I note you ignore the reality of boozing and providing liquor for underaged teammates and the hiring of strippers and the fact that at least one of the accused was on probation . . . .

[LisaL]

103. I have no idea what it is you think we all were aware of.

What you say doesn't make sense to me. Nifong was disbarred in part because he should have turned over the exculpatory evidence to the defense-DNA evidence that was found on the woman but did not match any of the accused.
You think some DNA is still un-identified? Dah. It doesn't match anyone on the lacrosse team.
What is it that you are even trying to argue here? You seem to not be aware as to why Nifong was disbarred. The DNA found in the woman that doesn't match the accused is usually considered an exculpatory evidence. In many cases it's enough to set those convicted free. Nifong was supposed to turn these results over in a timely manner. So, I have absolutely no idea what it is you are trying to argue.

[defendandprotect]

119. Nifong turned over all evidence . . ..

It's clear that Nifong hasn't been defending himself --
something seems odd there.

We all knew that the DNA didn't match -- and we all knew it because Nifong told everyone!!!!

Again -- try to focus on this: No DNA is required for rape charges.

[LisaL]

122. Nifong hasn't been defending himself? You obviously

missed his bar trial. Do you even know Nifong had a bar trial?
Try to focus on this-Nifong had a trial and he was disbarred. He had lawyers defending him during his bar trial.

[defendandprotect]

129. No it doesn't make sense that we ALL knew that there was no DNA evidence . . .

that matched the three accused and yet the "defense" didn't know it????
How could that be?

And, again . . . . you do not have to have DNA evidence in order to bring rape charges.

And, again, the cases where men have gone free have to do with a single rapist jailed on eye-witness testimony where there was DNA evidence but no way to test it. When tested, it becomes obvious that the single rapist is NOT the one jailed.
Try to work on that.

[lakercub]

146. YOU try to work on it

You're the one who wants to get a conviction when absolutely everything is going against it.

Yes strippers and sex workers can be raped, but there is no evidence this one was...none, zero, nada. Try as you might to reinvent the case out of whole cloth...you are going to fail miserably because you have absolutely nothing.

DNA isn't necessary for a rape conviction, but he still has to turn over EVERYTHING to the defense, whether "everybody already knows it or not." He didn't. He should be disbarred for that...that's not a swift-boating, thats incompetent, and unethical, prosecution. Nifong deserves everything he is getting, and your attempts to cloud this in some sort of mysterious twilight zone "we don't know what really happened" mystery are pathetic. She wasn't raped by the players...end of story. Nifong lied, cheated, and got caught and disbarred...deservedly. We know those things as well as we can know most things.

I could ask you if you've stopped beating your husband/wife. Well, have you? How do I know if your telling the truth? Where is your evidence to show your not.

As you say, just because a person is a sex worker doesn't mean they can't be raped. On the flip side, just because rich white boys had a hooker and got wild doesn't mean they committed rape.

Your posts make it clear you really want these kids to have raped her...you might want to work on that...it's kind of sick.

[defendandprotect]

157. How do you know she wasn't raped by the players? You weren't there -- were you?

OK -- so there is no way that you can actually know what happened -- is there?
We are all simply following our inner feelings about what may have happened.

In fact, the second dancer has changed her story after saying that she thought something had happened. She also said since she wasn't in the bathroom, she couldn't really know.

These are women who are open to easy intimidation. Both have had some kind of brush with the law previously. Often females who have been previously abused end up in these types of occupations --

Hopefully we are all looking for TRUTH -- wherever that leads us.

Nifong made it clear -- and it appeared in the press -- that there was NO DNA evidence which
tied any of the three to the rape. AGAIN . . . you do not need DNA in order to press rape charges.
And, as far as I recall, Nifong also discussed that point.

The report by the doctor and nurse at the hospital said that the victim's injuries were "consistent
with rape/assault."

The neighbor across the street who watched from his window as the dancers arrived that evening and
later in the night witnessed disturbances at the frat house -- including the shouting of racial
slurs at the female.

Additionally, taking pictures of a drunken dancer -- who looked more like she had been drugged, in
fact -- seems rather suspicious as to trying to create a time-line.

The balance of power here is with the white males -- so we have to rely on other white males who
were present to perhaps one day break the code of silence.

The frat house closed down very quickly that night -- seemingly, right after the incident.

[LisaL]

164. Well, actually, the second stripper initially said it was a "crock."

And it wasn't a "frat house." It's a sports team, not a frat.
The actual SANE report does not claim there were injuries consistent with rape.
As for the accusing stripper, special prosecutors observed similar kind of behavior she exhibited during the party, when they interviewed her.

"Witnesses said she was stumbling and unsteady when she arrived and throughout the night. Video evidence from when she left the party shows her unable to walk and in the audio, professing to be a cop, the report said.

Special prosecutors witnessed a similar behavior when meeting with Mangum on April 4, 2007, during the time she acknowledged having taken multiple prescription drugs: Paxil and amitriptyline, which are used to treat depression, Ambien, a drug relaxer, and methadone, a detox treatment for narcotic addiction.

"The accusing witness demonstrated unsteady gait, slurred speech and other mannerisms that were consistent with behaviors observed by numerous witnesses … and confirmed through a video taken that night," the report said."


http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1363100/

[idgiehkt]

168. frat house/ sports team

I don't think I'd feel more secure in either.

I didn't know she was on methadone. That poor lady...I hope she will get it together some day.

[defendandprotect]

183. Right; then she said "something happened" -- then she reversed again --

I've quoted to you from the hospital report -- doctor and nurse said victim's injuries "consistent with rape."

What do you mean it wasn't a "frat" house? Wasn't this their playground area?
And, it was about to be shut down --

As for your claims re the special prosecutors, you don't have any link to that, do you?
And what kind of "behavior" are you talking about? She said she was threatened with attack with a broomstick. In fact, her father suggests that it actually happened.

The neighbor across the street saw the two females arrive at the house --
they were NOT staggering nor stumbling nor unsteady when they arrived.

The video evidence I would suggest may have been altered to change the time sequence.
In fact, at that point, she may have been drugged.

QUOTE . . .
"The accusing witness demonstrated unsteady gait, slurred speech and other mannerisms that were consistent with behaviors observed by numerous witnesses … and confirmed through a video taken that night," the report said."

Since the victim didn't arrive in this condition, it points to the victim having been drugged at the party.

[LisaL]

184. You've quoted from a hospital report?

What report would that be? The actual SANE report doesn't say what you claim it does. And are you actually reading my post? WTF do you mean I don't have a link about special prosecutors? The link is in the post. Furthermore, the article linked in my post actually has a link to AG Cooper's report (on a side bar).

[defendandprotect]

187. Why don't you try reading the thread --

Look for my earlier post and you will see a quote from the hospital report ---

[Socal31]

107. I can always count on a fair amount of racism against

"well-off" or "privliged" white people in these Duke threads. Kinda sickens me....

If you were born into a trust-fund family, you would have used your connections to go to a good school. I wasnt so lucky, but I sure dont blame the ones who were.

[Jax]

113. racism against the white ruling class???

no.

You have no idea what I nor anyone would do if born into a 'trust fund family'.

Yeah all that racism against the white race is REALLY pervasive in our society....NOT.

[defendandprotect]

120. While he ignores the racial slurs shouted to the female dancers -- !!!!

[Socal31]

142. So racism against "white" people is ok?

Im trying to get your point here....

[idgiehkt]

167. I'm sure they're fine young men

one of whom might even grow up to be president and kill a million people in Iraq or some similar country like Bush has.

:woohoo:

[Socal31]

170. Take your prejudice and biggotry

somewhere else. Thanks.

[idgiehkt]

171. I kind of like it here

thanks. :hi:

[LisaL]

176. Right. And I suppose the democratic presidents are anything

but rich white men?

[ileus]

114. Give me power....F him.

[gatlingforme]

151. It's called politics and DAs do it all the time!!!!!!!!!!!n/t

[LisaL]

152. DAs do what all the time?

Get upset over their disbarment counts?
:rofl:

[MaraJade]

190. No more than exactly what he deserved. . .

we don't need any more fools playing DA in this country. Its because of idiots like him that crooks get away.

Maybe there's a position as dog-catcher he can get. It's abundantly clear that lawyering is way beyond his mental
capacity.