Marine tells of order to execute Haditha women and children

[Barrett808]

Source: AFP

Marine tells of order to execute Haditha women and children
by Rob Woollard

CAMP PENDLETON, California (AFP) - A US Marine was ordered to execute a room full of terrified Iraqi women and children during an alleged massacre in Haditha that left 24 people dead, a military court heard Thursday.

The testimony came in the opening of a preliminary hearing for Marine Sergeant Frank Wuterich, who faces 17 counts of murder over the Haditha killings, the most serious war crimes allegations faced by US troops in Iraq.

...

"I told him there were women and kids inside there. He said 'Well, shoot them,'" Mendoza told prosecutor Lieutenant Colonel Sean Sullivan.

"And what did you say to him?" Sullivan asked.

"I said 'But they're just women and children.' He didn't say nothing."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070831/ts_afp/usiraqmilitarywarcrimeshaditha

[Fearless]

1. Vietnam... even Bush cannot ignore that fact anymore.

Let's lower the requirements for joining the armed services though, those convicted of felony assault won't squeal. :sarcasm:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. K & R.

[drm604]

32. Mai Lai Iraq

http://www.theleftshue.com/2006/05/mai-lai-iraq.html

[DeSwiss]

3. K&R! n/t

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

4. Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich

Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, shown here in a 2005 photo

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. He looks just like a Young Repuke I used to know

Except he actually served - unfortunately.

[Gregorian]

6. Bush's war.

"Shoot the bastard!" That is what I saw on television while I ate dinner, one night during Vietnam. It was the most shocking thing I've ever seen.

And here we have the results of an illegal invasion. Bush's war of choice. Clark said, stovepipe. I wonder if we'll hear from Rumsfeld again. I wonder what orders may have lead to things like this. Even orders not given.

The ultimate nightmare. One that will come back to bite America.

[bdamomma]

20. and it will bite us.

[onewholaughsatfools]

7. so he went back inside and killed them

i don't know if he is just stupid or just a gun ho idiot

[TexasProgresive]

12. He did it to save himself

That may be a selfish motive but the one issuing the order would have shot him with the rest.

[atreides1]

13. He saved himself

By murdering women and children, there isn't any excuse for what he did.

[TexasProgresive]

15. I'm not excusing his behavior just explaning it. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. I think it's a pretty lame explanation.

[lonestarnot]

22. Unless he was killed first.

[ooglymoogly]

41. That does not sound likely at all.

he is just as guilty as the Sargent...How can any civilized person of sane mind do such a thing no matter the circumstances...He might have been brought up on insubordination but that is equally unlikely since it would have compounded, exposed and verified the Sargent's vicious malignancy and so on up the line of command to the very top.

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. I'd probably have shot him, if I'd thought that was the case.

[Zhade]

73. He should have shot the one who issued the illegal order.

Or, at least, arrested him.

Yeah, I fucking said it, and I stand by it. There's nothing progressive about excusing the murder of children, Tex.

[sanskritwarrior]

78. Ummm what illegal order

if the Sergeant felt threatened, the only LEGAL ORDER to give was to open fire. If the Sergeant felt threatened and did not act and one of his men was killed then he would have been guilty of dereliction of duty for failing to gun down those who were perceived as a threat. Look this is really simple, if the Sergeant felt threatened, and can prove his feeling was right, then under the AMERICAN RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, no crime was committed. In fact he did exactly what the manual said to do, if you feel threatened and your men's lives are perceived to be in danger, you have a split second to decide. Your choice is kill those who present a threat and live with it if you are wrong, or not kill those who present a threat and live with the consequences if the perceived threat kills on of your guys because you failed to act. Everytime I would take the dead Iraqi and possible prison time over a dead American and the fact that I failed them. I have had similar decisions to make in Iraq and I made them to the best of my ability.........

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. You should have learned by now advocating shooting UNARMED WOMEN AND CHILDREN is frowned upon here.

Please read #67 again.

[sanskritwarrior]

80. I don't really care

if the perceived threat means women and children die or an American soldier dies, I'm sorry, it's really not a hard choice. I'm sorry if someone choosing to protect American military personnel at the expense of non american potential combatants bothers you, it doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother 99.9% of most military personnel and I know it doesn't bother anyone I work with, so that's really the only crowd I have to please. That doesn't make me a monster, that doesn't make me a terrible person, it means that I value the lives of the people I serve with over the lives of people I do not know and who might be a threat to the people I serve with. Sorry, if that bothers you I can't help that.

[Scairp]

83. Clearly, you do not care

And yes, that does make you a terrible person. Believing that one American soldier's life is worth more than two dozen unarmed Iraqi civilians, it makes you exactly what you claim NOT to be, a monster. You would have fit right in with the other monsters who carried out this atrocity on that night in Haditha. What is wrong with people like you? I have a feeling that if it had been your two year old child lying on the floor of your own house, shot to death, you no doubt would be singing a different tune. But, oh, I forgot, Iraqi children are worth much less than American children, so your grief and outrage would be understandable.:puke:

Edited to add, I realize your name has been removed from this board, but I have a feeling you will still lurk to read what people are saying to and about you. Cheers.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. What I have to say is: FOESADIAF, psycho!

Fuck Off, Eat Shit And Die In A Fire.

[frog92969]

8. Geneva

According to Geneva, "following orders" is no excuse.
Too bad this will never make it all the way up the ranks where it belongs.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

50. You are correct and welcome to DU.

As witnessed by post #45- learn this now.
The ignore button is our FRIEND.
BHN

[frog92969]

58. Thank you

If all your trolls are this ignorant, this place might be more fun then I thought.
I'll keep that button in mind, I do prefer to be aware of my surroundings though.

Peace

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

65. Hint: you can't alert on ignored posts. -nt

[Quantess]

70. Damn, I missed the freep-troll!

I bet that was fun.

[Zhade]

75. It's a sad mark on this society that alleged liberal progressives would argue with you about that.

This country is very lost.

[lligrd]

9. Disgusting

I will never forgive this admin for the deaths they are responsible for or the shame they have ensured will be cast on the US because of them for eternity.

[annabanana]

10. Corpomedia had damn well better not ignore this.

This would have been lead story & front page during Vietnam...

[theHandpuppet]

14. Too busy worshipping Princess Diana

We wouldn't want to bother our beautiful minds with a report like this. Best to focus on idiotic, fairy tale princesses.

[tanyev]

19. Idiotic, fairy tale princesses who was using her celebrity to focus attention on land mines.

[theHandpuppet]

25. Oh please

Lots of celebs devote their time and efforts to very worthy causes. But this never-ending Diana worship is ridiculous -- it's not like she was Mother Theresa. She was blonde, pretty, rich and wore the best designer fashions. That's why she continues to be worshipped by the media. That's what the media is covering -- not land mines.

[tanyev]

26. Oh, please.

I'm not arguing that the media shouldn't be spending their time better. I'm simply arguing the label you gave her. For every anecdote of silly, self-absorbed behavior someone can come up with, there is another anecdote of her trying to take on serious issues and making a positive impact on other people's lives. Reducing that to "idiotic, fairy tale princess" is unfair and uncalled for.

[theHandpuppet]

31. I stand by my opinion

You, of course, are entitled to worship as you please.

[tanyev]

34. I'm not even watching any of the coverage.

But thanks for your permission.

[booley]

48. You're both right.

Princess Diana did devote herself to worty causes.

And the media's obsession with her has nothing to do with that.

[fujiyama]

43. For that matter what made Mother Teresa that much greater?

After all, she denied the use of contraceptives for the poor who truly needed it.

[Zhade]

76. Nothing made her greater, but people can't accept that she was just human.

And her doubts about any gods existing is worthy of praise, not demurral.

[ooglymoogly]

42. Oh please, she was a good woman trying to do good and

doing a damn good job of it...it is the corporate media that fauns on every move she ever made to cover for the fact they are not covering important issues corporate media does not want us to hear or know about because they are too busy making a boatload of money off the Holocaust in Iraq.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. And seat belt awareness.

:shrug:

[anniebelle]

11. When are we going to stop this madness?

I just can't understand why, with all these stories oozing out since Day 1 of this invasion, some of these people cannot be held accountable. What has happened to our sense of decency as a people, collectively.

[bdamomma]

21. there is no sense of decency with the * regime.

it is all about the oil, and the profits, and damn those who stand in their way. They must be stopped.

[acmavm]

89. Are you kidding. Even here a thread about an obscene massacre gets

diverted into a screed about Princess Diana and Mother Theresa.

That's some focus we got going there, isn't it?

[TacticalPeek]

16. Bush's War.

Rots from the head.

[Preening Fop]

17. Did anyone bother to ask: Was the Order To Murder the Civilians Carried Out?

The "Yahoo" link refuses work.

[barbtries]

49. the trial relates to the massacre of 24 civilians

in Haditha. the people were killed.

[happygoluckytoyou]

18. TONY SNOW HERE----->

Please quit picking on the president. He is busy speaking to GOD and getting his marching orders.
Do you really think a man who speaks to GOD would have started an evil war???
Would have women and children killed--- because you never know when a wedding party looks like the Sopranos heading out for a hit?
We, me-- the pres-- and GOD, expect the enemy to fight fair. We are not afraid of Iraq's tomahawk missles... "send them on" we say!!! No fear. Don't let Mahr Ben McGuiver improvise weapons, because that is NOT american.
And stop hiding your gunmen behind women and children--- we are running out of bullets kicking those "acceptable casualties" out of the way.

We stopped that torture stuff at Abu Grabe... we took away the cameras... and as you see, no more torture.
No friendly fire, Mr. Tilman.

And if we change our tactics----- the terrorists WIN.

[Vinca]

23. This story makes me want to vomit. nt

[gratuitous]

24. An "alleged" massacre?

Uh, you have 24 bodies of unarmed people on the floor, riddled with bullets. I don't know who perpetrated this despicable act, but there's nothing "alleged" about their death. This was a massacre, as simply stated as you can put it. Whoever is responsible for this undisputed crime should be brought to justice. Unfortunately, the concept of military justice is to real justice as military music is to real music.

And these are the same dumbasses who will convince themselves that "terrorists" "hate us for our freedom" the next time a small measure of retribution is exacted for these unpunished atrocities.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

27. The Few, The Proud... The Internet

I hope that every American sees through this crap--- We are fortunate to have the internet and we are using it.

I well remember the My Lai Massacre. This snip below is taken from the PBS Story about the event on American Experience
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/my_lai.html

On March 16, 1968 the angry and frustrated men of Charlie Company, 11th Brigade, Americal Division entered the Vietnamese village of My Lai. "This is what you've been waiting for -- search and destroy -- and you've got it," said their superior officers. A short time later the killing began. When news of the atrocities surfaced, it sent shockwaves through the U.S. political establishment, the military's chain of command, and an already divided American public

It is murder. It is outrageous. It is what happens when young men are twisted into killing machines who are trained to follow. The My Lai Massacre was part of a huge cover up. Some 38 years later nothing has changed except for us having the internet. Keep the info coming. We need to know, no matter how terrible the truth, we must know.

[karynnj]

35. We have the internet - but the My Lai story was far bigger in the Vietnam era

than Haditha is now. Broadcast TV - there was no cable- covered it on every channel. If you had TV on in the "news hour", you heard it. There was a cover-up, but it got exposed. The media functioned then and most of us - including college students where I was - were shocked, sickened and appalled and their was talk late into the night of things like Nuremberg.

So on communication - even with the internet - we are less well off today. We have a MSM that is filled with propaganda.

Supposedly the manuels were rewritten and practices changed based on what happened in Vietnam. The changes may have helped, but it is clear they surely have not ended the abuses.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

39. Yes, of course

Of course you are correct - The state of the media sucks now - we all here know that.

What I mean is no matter how much the MSM is in bed with the WH - we do have the ability, if we want, to be informed.

I am disgusted with the lack of a real media as much as anyone else - But I make an effort to overcome the bullshit - as you have.

[karynnj]

40. We basically agree

The internet is a Godsend. Without it, it would be far harder - if not possible - to learn the truth.

[OwnedByFerrets]

44. You are sooooooo correct.......nt

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Yeah, they defended themselves from unarmed women and children. Are you for real?

During a subsequent search of the house, Mendoza said he received an order from another Marine, Lance Corporal Stephen Tatum, to shoot seven women and children he had found in a rear bedroom.

"When I opened the door there was just women and kids, two adults were lying down on the bed and there were three children on the bed ... two more were behind the bed," Mendoza said.

"I looked at them for a few seconds. Just enough to know they were not presenting a threat ... they looked scared."

After leaving the room Mendoza told Tatum what he had found.

"I told him there were women and kids inside there. He said 'Well, shoot them,'" Mendoza told prosecutor Lieutenant Colonel Sean Sullivan.

"And what did you say to him?" Sullivan asked.

"I said 'But they're just women and children.' He didn't say nothing."

Let me ask you again: you are saying this is OK?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansDem]

28. Kinda makes "Saddam gassed his own people" pale in comparison...

"ACCEPT OUR FUCKING DEMOCRACY OR WE'LL FUCKING BLOW YOUR HEAD OFF...NEVER MIND, WE'LL JUST BLOW YOUR FUCKING HEAD OFF!!!"

I mean, how can we even begin to claim to take the high road...:shrug:

[tom_paine]

29. A tragedy most horrific, and yet I think only the tip of an iceberg

God I hope not, but in BushPutinist Amerika, it is eminently possible.

[JNelson6563]

30. They hate us for our freedoms!

:puke:

[FooFootheSnoo]

33. That's really messed up

Those poor people. Women and children? I'm speechless.:cry:

[Briar]

36. Every time I see a person in uniform with a gun

I know I am looking at someone who would, almost certainly, shoot me if ordered to. (Nowadays I have to include British policemen. It's a horrifying development, a real regression in civilisation.)

I wonder how many real heroes are out there - men and women who, if given such an order, would refuse to obey it. I know there are probably rather a lot, but somehow the narrative demands guns fired and blood shed to be called heroic. Moral courage may be far more admirable, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to get awarded many medals, nor many screen epics to celebrate it.

Now that is what we want - a medal of honour for those who really are honorable.

[conspirator]

60. I would rather shoot the person who gave such an order n/t

[defendandprotect]

86. Agree, but unfortunately our military evidently has no right to conscience ---

[MNDemNY]

37. War crimes.....

My Uncle, who served in the Army during WWII in China tells of an order he and his men got in the end days of the war. They were ordered to transport 50+ Japanese pows to a town that was 10-12 hours one way. The were told to be back in 4 hours. The were back in 4 hours.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. I hope they nail him

Some of the press up here (Wuterich is a local guy) sounds fairly sympathetic. I don't have any sympathy for this murderer whatsoever.

Sending him away for life would send a very good, and very strong message to our troops and around the world.

Which is probably why he'll get off...

[sanskritwarrior]

81. Nail him for what?

acting on a perceived threat to him and his men? Were you there? I wasn't there but I have been in Iraq where these kinds of decisions do happen, in the blink of an eye you either kill someone that might be a threat or you watch one of your guys get popped because you checked with the people at DU to see if it was ok to defend yourself. DU I love you, but on this issue you are wrong as wrong can be. If this guy can prove his life and the lives of his men were in fact threatened then no crime has been committed according to the CURRENT RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. I don't really like to fight 300 people at once but if those 300 people do not understand the ROE's I will make sure they do. If however, this guy cannot prove his life was in danger then he is toast and should be locked away forever. Finally the dismissal of charges against the other 2 tells me how I think the Marines will rule. Remember this Courts Martial is being conducted by other military officers, most of them have probably served at least twice in Iraq and are therefore familiar with the scenario. If they believe he was defending himself then I as a fellow military member agree.........so please if you are going to flame me, don't call me names or accuse me of not being a good democrat, I am, I just feel differently on this issue.

[defendandprotect]

87. Where was the threat from women and children --- ??? ??? It's racism, at the least --

[1monster]

46. A few years ago, after reading a DUer's report of asking some military friends of his

son's what they would do if ordered to fire into a crowd of unarmed peaceful Americans, they would do as ordered, I asked a high school Junior ROTC student if she would follow such an order.

""Yes, ma'am, I would."

"Even thought it is against US and international law?"

"Yes, ma'am. I would have to follow orders.

I don't think that young people joining any branch of the armed services in this country are being taught that they not only have the right, but the duty, to disobey unlawful orders.

And the sad things about that are that unnecessary suffering and death will result, and the soldier who obeys an unlawful order will be held as or more culpable than the superior officer who made the order in the first place.


edit: fixed html code

[redqueen]

51. god...

how can these people sleep at night

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superconnected]

55. I bet he dies in a helicopter accident.

[KayLaw]

56. I Google his name

The CT town he's from is supporting Sgt. Woterich. Horrifying!

[WinkyDink]

57. No soldier is compelled, legally or morally, to obey an illegal order.

"Section 14c(2)(a)(i):

Inference of lawfulness. A order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.

These provisions allow for the disobedience of illegal orders, but such orders may themselves constitute a crime, or be part of a criminal conspiracy, either under military or civilian law."

http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_attn.htm

Indeed~~~
"I will never forget the day, back when I was in U.S. Navy boot camp at Great Lakes RTC, when we seamen recruits received training on orders, what they mean, how to obey them, what to do when you are given contradictory orders and, most importantly, what to do when given illegal orders. It was explained to me then that an illegal order is not a proper order at all; it imposes no duty to obey. In fact, our instructor went on, the illegal order imposes a duty of a different sort: the duty not only to refuse to follow it but to take the officer or senior enlisted person who issued the illegal order under arrest, immediately and without question. Our instructor hammered home this point, even going so far as to make it clear that rank did not matter one bit in this calculation. If an admiral came by and ordered an E-3 to open fire for no legitimate reason on a civilian fishing boat, that E-3 was to place that admiral under arrest, right then, right there."
http://noolabeulah.blogspot.com/2006/02/american-army-abu-graib-war-crimes.html

[Solly Mack]

59. Yeppers

Thanks for posting that

[w8liftinglady]

64. excellent post..I asked the same question in GD.

[UncleSepp]

84. Yep, that's how I learned it, too

The emphasis during my training was very strong and very real. We had it pounded into our heads that each one of us was responsible for upholding the greater law, to paraphrase it. If our superior officers failed us by giving illegal orders, we were obligated not to follow them. If those under our command committed illegal acts against our own legal orders, we were responsible for their actions.

[Barrett808]

61. Freepers totally support Wuterich:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1889624/posts

[Puglover]

62. From on of the freepers on that threat.

To: All
Godspeed SSgt Wuterich. Thanks for your service and for keeping us safe from radicals who will kill us anywhere they get a chance.
Prayers for your quick aquittal and release.


I work with a woman just like this. She could'nt care less how many of the brown skinned "muslims" are killed just so we are safe. And in the next breath the stupid ass will tell you we went over there to liberate them. How do you argue with a moron?

[Quantess]

71. Did you see this one?

"Pray for W and Our Marines"

I mean, go ahead and pray for the Marines, but, pray for W?:puke:

Some of the other posts encourage prayers for Wuterich. What, no prayers for his victims? Such compassionate conservatives.

[Scairp]

85. I know

I Google'd this scumbag's name, and most of the first page is a list of websites that support him, and one is actually a site to raise money for his defense fund! The first was the Time story on him, from a year ago. I will never understand people who still hold the opinion that we are doing the Iraqi's a favor, and that preserving even one American life, whether it be over there or on our own soil, is paramount to avoiding civilian casualties in the countries we have invaded.

[pettypace]

69. what did post #45 say?

Wish it was left up instead of censored, would give the replies some context.

[Zhade]

72. People are in denial? This happened. It always happens, no matter who the army.

We are not immune from evil actions.

"USA! USA! USA!" my ass.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Vietnam, Lidice, and Babi Yar all over again!

This case should be tried at The Hague. Our military will never prosecute the people that gave the orders, that led to subordinates to give the orders that resulted in the order to kill civilians at Haditha. Nothing happens in a vacuum in the military! If your platoon leader tells you to waste civilians, chances are that he got the same orders from his superiors, and they from theirs.

[BreweryYardRat]

77. At that point, wouldn't it have been legal for Mendoza to shoot Sgt. Wuterich?

Can someone with more knowledge of military/international law clarify this for me?

[mikita]

82. There are so many threads like this..

where buried in the thread you find out about the uncle or father or cousin or friend who will admit that they killed innocents in whatever "war" they were in. WTF? Why are so many complicitly silent year after year, war after war???? Why don't they warn their children, nieces, nephews, of the killing machine we are??

It all makes me so sick......

[defendandprotect]

88. "I was just following orders" . . . . sound familiar -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ???? ?????

[Raine]

90. Saw him on 60 Minutes Sunday night

I thought he was full of shit, a very hard hearted fellow who only said he was sorry when the interviewer pressed him. :mad: He didn't even have to go over there but he wanted to cause he wanted to "taste war" before he left the service. :eyes: