Feds to restrict volunteers at disasters

[pop goes the weasel]

Source: DEVLIN BARRETT, Associated Press Writer

In an effort to provide better control and coordination, the federal government is launching an ambitious ID program for rescue workers to keep everyday people from swarming to a disaster scene. A prototype of the new first responder identification card is already being issued to fire and police personnel in the Washington, D.C., area.

Proponents say the system will get professionals on scene quicker and keep untrained volunteers from making tough work more difficult.

But they also know it is a touchy subject, particularly for those devoted to helping in moments of crisis.

....

"They're more worried about keeping volunteers out than doing an analysis of what really went wrong," said Shearer. "Independent citizens need to be involved, where we have no ax to grind or cross to bear. But we will tell the truth, and we will tell what we see and bear witness to the incompetence."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/ap_on_re_us/disaster_ids

---

I think Shearer is on target with her criticism of this new plan.

[sandyj999]

1. I Guess Our Money Is OK????n/t

[dickbearton]

18. And Chertoff and his Neocon Nazi's ln Homeland...

Security and FEMA can take over for Corporate America at the
expense of the victims.

[PSPS]

2. A neat way to keep potential witnesses out.

[Demeter]

3. Excellent Cover For Black Ops!

The Press will be the first to be excluded, too, just like Iraq.

[tridim]

4. Yep, Blackwater will certainly be welcome..

and paid very very well.

[siri2k]

24. Right, too many people complained about the post-Katrina police state.

Also, Bush can't have people running around, claiming that they heard explosions going off in the World Trade Center.

[siri2k]

84. Bush wants to prevent anyone from reporting rampant contractor abuse.

n/t

[bananas]

30. DemocracyNow! Sept 12, 2005: Overkill: Feared Blackwater Mercenaries Deploy in New Orleans

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/12/1426242

Monday, September 12th, 2005
Overkill: Feared Blackwater Mercenaries Deploy in New Orleans

<snip>

And one of them was wearing a golden badge, that identified itself as being Louisiana law enforcement, and in fact, one of the Blackwater mercenaries told us that he had been deputized by the governor of Louisiana, and what's interesting is that the federal government and the Department of Homeland Security have denied that they have hired any private security firms, saying that they have enough with government forces. Well, these Blackwater men that we spoke to said that they are actually on contract with the Department of Homeland Security and indeed with the governor of Louisiana. And they said that they're sleeping in camps organized by the Department of Homeland Security.

<snip>

[Einsteinia]

83. Exactly what I was thinking

Blackwater overrides the Posse Commitus Act which forbids military on our own soil.

This MUST be restored and particularly against these mercenaries who are accountable to no one.

[djp2]

5. No problematic photos of "workers" picking up the "pieces"

They need to know who people are, so they can make sure they don't "Talk"

[WileEcoyote]

87. This is the problem when a government loses it's credibility.

You can not afford to believe them even when what they say may make a little sense.

OK I'm a construction contractor. I build things, fix 'em etc. Now one of the first things i hate is when a home owner wants to "help me" with a certain project.

Reason? He can't understand my thought pattern nor is able to visualize the dangers involved with construction work. At best he'll slow me down and piss me off. At worst he'll do stupid shit and get someone hurt.

Sound mean? No. It's called SAFETY FIRST!!!

So when I first read the headline about the "Feds limiting volunteers" etc. My thought was that in some ways this is a good idea: Reduces casualties associated with untrained albeit generous persons who may screw up the process. Again: As a contractor the LAST THING I want are a lot of people running around my job site knocking over ladders or unplugging the winch, standing under the crane etc.

So clearly there can be a problem with untrained individuals fucking up any job site. Especially one where lives are being lost. However the answer isn't to 1984 these people. Just have a particular volunteer coordinator make sure these people are either qualified, like able to run heavy machinery, weld, and strong enough to lift things.

If not? Well shucks make them run for coffee and donuts. That's a contribution too.

[Lisa]

91. thumbs up!

Excellent points, WileEcoyote. If the community's got an emergency plan and has done some kind of preparation, people will be aware of what jobs they are or aren't qualified to do, and won't be bent out of shape if they get put on background (but still important) duty like answering phones or handing out the donuts. There will be "volunteer volunteer coordinators" who can step in, and work will get done while reducing the risk of more people getting injured or killed.

But if the feds aren't doing stuff at the other end as well -- providing funds and expertise for communities to get organized BEFORE things happen, for example -- sure, it'll look like they're being heavyhanded when they bring in policies like this.

[struggle4progress]

14. Bingo.

[WinkyDink]

81. Ain't that the truth. But it's for OUR PROTECTION! (Never needed before, oddly enough.)

[rabies1]

89. I 100% agree with you there.

So, for example, actor Sean Penn wants to help Katrina like victims, he now has to go and get a proper ID first? Or what? "Blackwater" going to stand there with guns and invite him to leave?

[Quantess]

92. Oh...yeah. I hadn't thought of that.

:o

[demnan]

6. Those groups of volunteers in New Orleans

were actually trying to help people. That's not what the government wants, especially next time. Next time could be September 15 in the streets of DC and they may want as many killed as possible.

[onewholaughsatfools]

40. let's not forget the country who entered N.O. first were Canadians

the first people to help N.O. were canadians, ready to help and save peoples lives, second was Cuba offering Doctors and of course third was GWB, as soon as he came off his vacation.... Bush .....McCain eating cake while N.O. was dieing..............

[zbdent]

7. Uh ... isn't the Repuke party the one which makes a big fuss

over the fact that "ordinary people" are the real heroes of fill-in-the-blank disaster recovery, not THE GOVERNMENT? How you can't count on the Government to help you in a time of crisis?

Well, we have just seen yet another brick placed in the wall of MARTIAL LAW ...

[dickbearton]

20. Repuke party of hypocrites, lier's, and crooks.

[jwirr]

43. Yes, remember poppy's thousand lights! We had better pray that

there is no emergencies before we get him and his nazi party out of the wh. If I am not mistaken it was pretty much volunteers who did the most at NO.

[bbgrunt]

49. excellent point

[LiberalFighter]

8. I as supreme righteous being of the United States do hereby order

all Black Ops, secret government organizations or other private security forces found to be in disaster areas to be shot on sight.

[appleannie1]

9. actually, having worked in emergency response, I can see

both sides of the issue. But I also know, that had it not been for volunteers, the death toll during Katrina would have been much higher. I think there has to be some guidelines, but to shut out everyone willing to help is wrong and the only explanation I can think of for that is to keep witnesses out of the area. If volunteers have trucks and can shuttle supplies, let them, but direct them to where those supplies are needed. It would mean that less emergency responders would have to do mundane things and more would be available to actually do the hands on job of saving lives.

[Chemical Bill]

34. >had it not been for volunteers,

> the death toll during Katrina would have been much higher.

If the volunteers with boats had not been turned back, the death count might have been much lower. I could see both sides of this issue if I actually trusted this government.

Bill

[appleannie1]

39. I don't either

which is why I said --- the only explanation I can think of for that is to keep witnesses out of the area.

[mwb970]

73. In some situations, untrained volunteers can get in the way.

But come on, there must be something you can give them to do. It's bad enough that ordinary Americans apparently have no way of ridding themselves of the awful Bush Regime. Then on top of that, we are not even allowed to help out our own fellow citizens?

I guess this is what we should expect from "compassionate conservatives", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

[rodeodance]

10. this country is ID crazy! good gawd!

[Karenina]

15. Big Brother MUST haf his vay to monitor YOU!!!

[MasonJar]

11. Oh, they mean the people who actually helped people and animals

in time of need, as opposed to the jerk-offs in the Bushista administration. But of course!!!

[RestoreGore]

12. As the feds take five or more days to get food and water to the victims...

This sounds fishy to me.

[colbertforpresident]

13. Interference

The surely don't want volunteers to interfere with the profit makers.

[Mojorabbit]

16. This really

really pisses me off. It was a methodist church group experienced in disaster work that helped strip my sister's house down to the studs after Katrina. They had to sneak in after fema tried keeping people out. They came with all their own supplies and esperienced people.

Regular people don't have to worry about red tape before they get something done and don't think in beaurecratic boxes.
I won't hold my breath waiting for the govt. to get there if I need any help right after a disaster.

[truedelphi]

86. You have to wonder how dumb they think we are

And is this Choice Point (of the deleted voter list fame in Georgisa and Florida behind the ID's??

[onewholaughsatfools]

17. well facts bear her out,

the fact is, one of the bushies supporters said i got a scam here ...I will make all of these ID'S for you at 200.00 a popp and give you a kickback.... so hell yea why not do this........

[Vidar]

19. So apparently theri Katrina response is just a prototype for what they have planned for Boston

and New York.

[dickbearton]

21. Sieg Heil!

[lligrd]

31. So Now There Poor Response Was The Volunteer's Fault

I guess Blackwater and Halliburton will be the only ones able to "volunteer" (for billions, of course).

[uppityperson]

22. k&r, need a couple more to get on Greatest Page for wider coverage

In response to the idea, bull puckey. Some of us "untrained volunteers" did stuff Red Cross couldn't/wouldn't.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

23. NEWS AND MESSAGE CONTROL

WHAT ELSE CAN YOU EXPECT FROM THE "GREAT PRETENDERS" ??????????

[2Design]

25. katrina was like this - force genocide - they blocked help from arriving

they will not allow help for people they want dead

[BrklynLiberal]

26. Nothing this admin does is actually for the good of the people. Any type of control they are trying

to exert is ultimately to cover their asses when things go wrong...This way there will not be any independent voices to expose them and publicize the errors that were made.

[Indy Lurker]

27. more info

http://www.gcn.com/online/vol1_no1/36822-1.html

Starting in January 2006, about 200,000 first responders in the Washington metropolitan area will receive biometric smart card IDs that will allow secure cooperation at sites where federal as well as state and local first responders are called in.

The cards comply with Homeland Security Presidential Directive 12 and Federal Information Processing Standard 201, which specifies the architecture and technical requirements for a uniform identity credential to access federal facilities and systems. Among the requirements are biometric data.

The card will identify first responders and their qualifications at the scene of an incident, allowing them to move into and out of secured areas. It can also serve as a platform for physical access to buildings, access to networks, human resource asset accountability, incident command and control, property/firearms accountability and National Incident Management System integration.

[Olney Blue]

28. No Office of Faith Based Rescue?

[rucky]

38. I know you're kidding, but there was an article about that...

a couple weeks ago. It exists. The Army of God and Blackwater will save us from disaster.

[lligrd]

29. What Kind Of BS Is This?

The "Feds" either won't or can't help as evidenced by the latest disasters. I'll be damned if I am going to wait for them to help me and I'll be equally damned if I am not going to offer any help that I can provide.

[backscatter712]

32. Oh, yeah, this'll work wonders.

FEMA kept countless volunteers out of the NOLA area after Katrina. Ask the survivors how that worked out for them...

[lligrd]

33. Wonder What The Penalty For Helping Will Be?

Time in the Bay?

[matt819]

35. Never mind

I misread the original post. Never mind.

[MisterP]

36. this was de la Madrid's "response" to the 1985 Mexico City earthquake:

not respond for 6 hours, then send the Army out--to keep people from digging others out of the rubble! This really intensified loathing for the ruling neoliberal PRI party and made the PRD (apparently) win the 1988 election there (though the tabulating computers "crashed" for a week just as the PRI started falling behind, leaving Salinas the alleged victor)
Of course, if we did anything as radical as reject 1.5-party neoliberalism or start up our mass-based American PRD, then the wrong cats would be voted to the leadership of Mouseland!

[Peregrine Took]

37. Yet another attempt to clamp down on public observation of events. Keep

them closed then tell us what is going on. Ultimate control.

[krispos42]

41. No witnesses.

Interesting.

[fed-up]

42. WTF?????? the death toll wasn't high enough for you in last disasters??? murdering f*ck nt

[pop goes the weasel]

44. We need to work on this at the state level

Looks like California is about to have civilian volunteers "terminated" by Ah-nold. How many other governors think this is a good idea?

[tetedur]

45. 500 people with boats went to N.O. and were turned around

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/171718/0826

On Wednesday morning a group of approximately 1,000 citizens pulling 500 boats left the Acadiana Mall in Lafayette in the early morning and headed to New Orleans with a police escort from the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Department. The flotillia of trucks pulling boats stretched over FIVE miles. This citizen rescue group was organized by La. State Senator, Nick Gautreaux from Vermilion Parish. The group was comprised of experienced boaters, licensed fishermen and hunters, people who have spent their entire adult life and teenage years on the waterways of Louisiana.
The State Police waved the flotillia of trucks/boats through the barricades in LaPlace and we sped into New Orleans via I-10 until past the airport and near the Clearview exit. At that time we were stopped by agents of the FEMA controlled La. Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries.

A young DWF agent strolled through the boats and told approximately half of the citizens that their boats were too large because the water had dropped during the night and that they should turn around and go home.

They were pulling a large (24ft) shallow draft aluminum boat that can safely carry 12 passengers and had ramp access which would allow the elderly and infirm to have easier access to the boat. They then politely informed the DWF agent that the local and national media had consistently reported that the water level had risen during the night which contradicted his statement to them that the water was dropping and no boat over 16ft. in length would be allowed to participate in rescue operations.

They then specifically asked the DWF agent that they (and other citizens in the flotillia) be allowed to go to the hospitals and help evacuate the sick and the doctors and nurses stranded there. They offered to bring these people back to Lafayette, in our own vehicles, in order to ensure that they received proper and prompt medical care.

The DWF agent did not want to hear this and ordered them home -- ALL FIVE HUNDRED BOATS. They complied with the DWF agent's orders, turned around and headed back to Lafayette along with half of the flotillia. However, two friends were pulling a smaller 15ft alumaweld with a 25 hp. The DWF agents let them through to proceed to the rescue operation launch site.

They were allowed to drive to the launch site where the FEMA controlled La. Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries were launching their rescue operations (via boat). They reported to me that there were over 200 DWF agents just standing around and doing nothing. They were kept there for approximately 3 hours. During that time they observed a large number of DWF agents doing absolutely nothing. Why? Because FEMA would not let them HELP! After three hours had passed they were told that they were not needed and should go home. They complied with the DWF's orders and turned around and went home to Lafayette.



Why did it take until Saturday for Bush to order the military in? Why did he want to take over control of the La National Guard when he had all the authority he needed to send in help?

It was a dry run on the American people to test how they would react to disaster with no help from authorities. They wanted to declare martial law and do away with the Constitution right then and there.

[NOLALady]

46. This sounds like a flipping joke!

We could not have survived without the volunteers. They were pouring into our area at a time when the government didn't know if we were still on the map.
But, I did talk to Nurses who were told they were not needed. Thank God, they came anyway.

[spirit of wine]

47. Would The Pentagon Deem A Foreign Conflict

A Disaster? I am wondering because I need to know how often the rules are going to change before people realize our leadership is full of crap. Does this mean all conflicts are not a disaster that we need more volunteers signing up for or the present conflict is actually nothing more than political damage control, ad infinitum...

Bush has forced himself into the Oval Office under a bad court decision, and is now stuck in the shallow end of the gene-pool of humanity drowning and wallowing in despair as the world watches his incompetence implode for what not to do when failing to pee in a cup catches up to a grown man.

May we all survive this trip with a better understanding.

-Peace.

[CoffeeCat]

48. This is most frightening for....

...the victims of a disaster.

When a disaster happens, you need help and you are afraid. I can't even imagine seeing only
military with drawn guns and blackwater mercs---wondering where all of the volunteers and
church groups are. That would feel so isolating. It would turn a devastating situation
into a terrifying one.

No witnesses to what the Nazi thugs are doing.

I thought we were free to travel and move about the country?

How can they block off an entire city? What about friends and relatives of victims in the affected
city? Do they actually think that they can keep adult children away from their suffering parents...or
parents away from their children who are in desperate peril????

This is absurd. The people will not stand for this.

[pingzing58]

50. Geez, I can't believe this we need a new and moral liberal progressive gov. to deal with reality.

[MilesColtrane]

51. Feds to restrict volunteers at disasters

OK BushCo™, but don't come crying to me when an accident at a biowarfare research lab causes the populace to mutate into brain sucking zombies.

Oh, and you can't borrow my shotgun either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Hmm reaching for that disaster manager's hat

ok, ok, on the face of it this is not a bad idea... except....

1.- When you limit access you not only limit problems but also limit witnesess.

2.- Under any other administration I'd say, ok, you've got a point. Yep I've had the joy of having more people than I could handle show up, most of them untrained, at bad situations, but... this is not the reason they are doing this

See point number one.

And the sad part is these days I can't trust them for anything.

[lostnfound]

63. Plus it's so much better if the volunteers just go out and shop!!!

A more sensible approach might be to give some practical training in high school to the general public about how to behave in emergency situations.

Everything this administration does seems intended to disempower and dehumanize people.

[Snarkturian Clone]

53. If there was a disaster in my neck of the woods

I wouldnt want to rely on the fed gov. to help me! I'd feel safer with volunteers!

I live about 3/4 mile away from federal land... is that an asset or a liability?

[stillcool]

54. more 'heck of a job' Brownies...

to the rescue? I guess they're just giving everyone a heads up not to expect any help from the U.S. federal government...there is not there there.

[colorado_ufo]

55. I am in regular contact with relatives there,

and it is the church groups that are STILL coming in from all over the United States that are repairing houses, cleaning up, etc. The local churches are housing and feeding them. My Mom bakes cakes! However, help has slacked off since school has started.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

56. After they way they handled Katrina....

...I would feel better if they'd leave ALL rescue and emergency response for ANY major disaster ENTIRELY and EXCLUSIVELY up to "everyday people." There wouldn't have been anywhere near the number of dead in the wake of Katrina if such a plan had been in effect.

What they're doing is designed to keep people (especially with cameras and video recorders) away from the black ops false flag terror sites. The less documentation and eye witness testimony, the better.

[nam78_two]

57. .....

:eyes: Yes those damn volunteers shure hurt REAL efforts in such sichwashuns:

[MilesColtrane]

59. Bush is playing an Abmaj7 #11 #9 chord.

It's a dissonant, noisy chord that's badly voiced, and generally useless in the realm of functional harmony.

The perfect aural metaphor for his administration.

[treestar]

77. There is a presidential seal even on his blasted guitar!

:wtf:

[BDW1964]

58. Step Back

This story was written to be provocative and it accomplished its mission. What it did not explain is this. The credentialing aspect is not to restrict volunteers from helping out in a disaster or other emergency situation. It is designed to control access to a "hot zone" to qualified and authorized emergency responders. Frequently in emergency situations, uncontrolled volunteers without qualifications, experience or PPE (personal protective equipment) cause additional injuries and problems, not only for themselves, but for the actual first responder personnel.

Hurricane Katrina was a mess on a colossal scale, with competing jurisdictions and people playing political games of control, as well as numerous unqualified people in positions of authority (heck of a job, Brownie). Katrina was a one of type of event, unlikely to be repeated often and should not be the model off of what people base their perceptions on emergency response on, it was an "one of" type of mess.

What most lay people do not know is this. More untrained volunteers get hurt trying to execute first responder roles in emergencies and disasters than is commonly known. This puts not only the initial victims at risk, it puts the volunteer at risk and the first responders at risk. The Mexico city earthquake is an example. More people died that were volunteers doing first responder tasks, than died in the earthquake itself. This is simply because they did not have the training or experience to enter the hot zone, determine if the structures were sound, or how to extricate victims. Likewise, you could not be in the flood waters for long without getting all kinds of nasty infections and skin problems, something that self dispatched volunteers had neither the experience, training, knowledge or most importantly the support services to deal with afterwards.

The second issue is "bad guys" getting into the hot zone areas. Example include the fake rescuers in 9-11 robbing AT machines and stealing stuff in Katrina and victimizing actual victims.

Volunteers can still be utilized in non-direct roles, which require little or no training. There are systems in place to give average citizens basic training to handle non-technical support roles and light, initial response to disasters. An example of this is CERT program, which is tied to local emergency management. I would like everyone to think what would happen if an authority (FEMA, Local Emergency Management, Fire Department, etc) allowed untrained volunteers to insert themselves in situations where technical skills and special equipment is required and these people got sick or died as a result of it?

I managed a large emergency shelter during Katrina/Rita and can speak directly to the need of a system to credential all people involved in the areas during a disaster. Like it or not, there is a segment of society that are criminal and there is a segment that is just not interested in following directions. This is not some cabal to hide things. This is a system to ensure the safety of first responders and the public they are serving, directly in an emergency. When I am out doing fire suppression, search & rescue or managing a shelter with 7,500 people dependent upon the system, I want to know that any volunteer is trained to at least a minimum level and more importantly, what NOT to do. This training has an important aspect that most people do not recognize. People need to be trained to know when something exceeds their ability or capability to deal with. This is just as important as knowing how to respond to a situation.

[piesRsquare]

69. Excellent post n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

79. The problem is,

as many have already pointed out, we dont trust ANYTHING this administration does. The most helpful and sound policy will be used AGAINST the ppl, not FOR the ppl.
In a fascist society, which we are, MONEY is everything. Well, next to POWER.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. Thanks for the other side

As others have pointed out, "organized" relief doesn't have much of a track record with this government.

[Mojorabbit]

97. You have stats on that

re injuries to volunteers?
there are lots of disasters lately from flooding to tornados. I am not waiting for the feds to come in.

[badgervan]

60. You Know....

..... for a party that says "less government" is their number one issue, it sure is strange how they continue to increase the government departments that have to do with keeping the public away from them, and from checking up on them. The NeoRepublican Party: the party of hypocrisy and Big Brother. 14 months and a week. Tick, Tock......

[Pachamama]

61. I don't believe this requirement for disaster zones is as bad as everyone here thinks it may be...

I say that even though I'm one of the first to question the intentions of our government (specifically the Bush Administration). The reason I feel this way and am not jumping up and down in panic is because I am someone who has actually been trained in Emergency First Aid and how to conduct Triage and Search and Rescue. I have several certifications and trainings including the local "CERT" (Community Emergency Response Training" that was conducted by the local fire department and funded by the Homeland Security Department. I received an identification card that allows me access to an emergency area in the event of a disaster. There are a lot of good things about a program like that and in fact I reccommend that everyone here take a training and certification in their area and be qualified to assist in disasters. First of all, it will allow you to help you community in the event of a disaster (natural or terrorist) and even if you don't feel like helping your fellow neighbor, it will train you how to help yourself and your family. Has anyone here ever actually had to put out a fire? Has anyone here ever had to leverage a huge block of concrete off of someone? Has someone had to ever setup a Triage area and access people including filling out the tags that identify for EMT's their condition? Has anyone here ever conducted light search and rescue in a house that has been damaged and know how to mark the house so that Emergency Fire & Rescue know that its been searched, what the findings were (ie. injured/dead) and so that they don't bother to enter or do enter if needed? (Remember in NOLA after Katrina the images of houses where there were spraypainted circles with 4 quadrants in them and numbers? - Well, I'm trained to know how to mark a house and what it means so that the Fire Dept/Police) know its been checked or what's needed)

The point is that as much as many of us want to help in emergency situations, it can actually be more dangerous to the safety of those individuals and those they want to be helping as well as to the emergency personnel if they don't know what they are doing. I really don't believe that this is to keep away witnesses or press and the reality is that if press and others want to be there, then they should get this training, it only takes 4 days (done in two weekends) and in addition to getting a pass that allows you access to emergency areas, it qualifies you (atleast in the state of CA) for Workman's Compensation should you be injured in the process of assisting in an emergency.

Anyway, that's my two-cents worth as a person who has already in the last 20 years experienced the Loma Prieta Earthquake in 1989 and a flood in 2005. And since I live in earthquake country and know that the "Big One" could come at anytime, I am prepared to help my family and my neighbors and community. Most people forget that emergency services might not be able to get to them for as much as 48 hours and people who are trained to help their communities may be the best chance that the community has. I say embrace this requirement, not fear it and we all should get properly trained to be emergency volunteers.

[FormerOstrich]

65. You have some excellent points....

your post was informative and I appreciate the information you have provided. I may very well follow up on your suggestions.

Needless, to say you have spoken as a subject matter expert. Now, I am going to speak from, well I'll be honest, out my ass.

You should know more than anyone, no ID system in the world will keep volunteers away. Some volunteers will be very well trained (without proper ID), some will not. However, what I know from Human Nature is there are many more followers than leaders.

Wouldn't a superbly trained first responder immediately delegate volunteer management to a well trained volunteer?

Isn't excellent communication the number one essential element to any successful operation (of any given job). Couldn't untrained volunteers become immediately useful in disseminating information to the properly credentialed ID'd and trained staff?

I have a large job to do the LAST thing I want to do is have less resources than more resources. Absolutely, I can't have adding resource diluting the talents of my existing resources but I can damn sure organize and communicate and pull resources together.

I've never seen a large job (of any sort) where you didn't need more unskilled labor than highly skilled labor. Keep the trained skilled experts doing what they do, let the unskilled labor run interference for them.

Isn't it all about managing resource and good leadership? Not ID badges and classroom training? Who works well under fire and who freezes?

Once again, I really did appreciate your post and information you provided.

[SoCalDem]

62. Making tough work more difficult?? Huh??

Like the scores of young people who went to NOLA and actually set up tents and FED people for FREE for weeks/months and asked NOTHING in return? That kind of "amateur"? :grr:

[BDW1964]

67. READ...it helps

The credentialing system is for people in the "hot zones". Feeding people is not a hot zone, but you have to ensure that volunteers are not really there to rob, rape and otherwise cause havoc. Contrary to popular opinion, these types of things did happen in shelters and field areas. It took a couple of weeks to run criminal backgrounds on volunteers and a significant amount were found to be bad guys. Red Cross volunteers, which run shelters are now required to be vetted for criminal records prior to training and deployment, they also have to go through classes to learn how to handle mass casualties and/or mass care. All disaster relief organizations, including federal, state, local and private sector drove this, not some mysterious cabal. If an NGO (non governmental organization) like Red Cross, Baptist Disaster Relief, etc. has unvetted and untrained volunteers, they put the other volunteers at risk, the victims at risk, first responders at risk and open up liability issues for everyone involved. Again, there is a difference between being a walk on volunteer in a disaster, when the ability to check people out is limited and being a pre-vetted, trained and screened volunteer with any organization.

[FormerOstrich]

75. I apologize BDW1964....

When I originally read yours and Pachamama's posts, I had thought the two posts were from the same person. Your experiences and writing styles are different I am unsure why I meshed the two in my mind.

You, as Pachamama, have made some excellent points. I may be completely wrong here, but you sound more of an administrator than Pachamama. Pachamama seems to be a highly skilled technical resource (I apologize if I the terminology I am using is incorrect within the context we are discussing).

I seem to recall, during Katrina, FEMA was routing trained first providers to additional training classes before being actually deployed in the field. I remember reading where many resented having been delayed.

I still find it difficult to believe volunteers (trained or not) could not be put to immediate productive use.

I understand opportunists will invariably surface to capitalize on another's loss. However, reading your comments which indicate clearing volunteers to assist in a soup kitchen equivalent as a two week process makes me cringe. That seems to prove my point even more....put the resources you have to use...not turn them away. If I am in an emergency, require shelter and food, I'd just as soon not wait very long to eat because of what I consider red tape. Pool the resources you have and manage them. You don't need first responders running roughshod over background checks differentiating between a Pot Bust and a professional thief. Not everyone needs to be an expert to be an asset.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights. I have found this thread to be very thought provoking. Not to mention, creating an overwhelming sense of wanting to jump into my fiction sceneros and ORGANIZE.

[Hekate]

64. The Bushites are really trying to destroy everything good about America, aren't they?

I literally feel sick.

Hekate

[nvme]

66. Anything coming from this administration is naturally subject to suspicion

You make a valid point for training. Katrina and 9/11 however,
demonstrated the administrations ineptitude toward handling
any large scale disasters. When faced with a life threatening
situation, I would find myself unable to idly standing by. I
would have to render whatever assistance till someone more
qualified came along. 

[BDW1964]

68. Credentialing

This concept of standard, national credentialing started under the Clinton Administration. CERT is a great example of training volunteers to handle the immediate response to a disaster and came out of the LA Fire Department. It is ow a national Citizen's Corp program with teams all over the country. Your statement that you would do what you could until trained people arrived is right on. That is what you (all of us) are supposed to do.

[FormerOstrich]

76. Your post reminds me of when I worked with people from

Germany (several years ago). When I was asking questions about their required military stints, my German colleague explained. FormerOstrich (well actually Ostrich back then), it was not a big deal, the German military is not like that of the US. We were trained if something occurred only to hold it together until the US arrived.

The German military is probably entirely different now, with different requirements. However, it is nice to reminisce about a time I could be proud of the US, the US military, and the US military response. Comments like that made me proud.

I was doing a bit of International travel for the company I worked for at the time. I remember always feeling good when I would see US military people on a flight with me. They were always so friendly, professional, and very helpful to travelers such as myself, oftentimes arriving in another country for the first time. You didn't need to seek them out for assistance, they just seemed to oftentimes to be in the right place at the right time when you needed a bit of reassurance or help.

I'm sorry....I am entirely off topic now...sometimes being an Ostrich was very nice.

[IndianaGreen]

70. I remember watching a video of volunteers cooking and feeding the NO rescue workers

The feds were notable for their absence.

This is another bad fascistic idea from a criminal regime. They are destroying whatever is good about America.

[6000eliot]

71. By all means, take away the only thing that made 9/11 in the least bit bearable.

Fucking morons!

[tom_paine]

72. Only Loyal Bushies/Nazis.

Unfortunately, since Loyal Bushies are mostly lazy and cowardly, where are you going find enough Loyal Bushies to run a rescue operation.

Maybe if they are promised their pick of the loot from victims' homes or maybe some of that Cheney/Himmler "recovery" lucre.

[Maribelle]

74. Feds checking IDs at a disaster would require Feds to be there to begin with.

I clearly remember when Hurricane Andrew devastated areas of South Florida, and watching the victims screaming on national television for federal help - - for any help at all. The first Bush failed then.

Again, when Katrina devastated New Orleans we watched the victims screaming on national television for federal help. Where were the Feds then?

It's reassuring to know that at least we can get the Feds in to check IDs when thousands scream for help the next time.

[outofbounds]

78. Great just great

I understand how volunteers can get in the way of rescuers/first responders. It is embarrassing to the officials when people see first hand that they don't know how to prioritize and take control of each of the situations that are in front of them. That’s bad for business.

Volunteers also witness prejudices by the officials when choosing who or who not to help. That’s really bad for business

Volunteers also muck up the works by actually wanting to help the people first. By this I mean dropping water to the people who were stuck on the bridge and supplies to people stuck at the Superdome. Getting people to dry ground and first aid as soon as possible. Officials want to set up a base camp, get the communication lines running, get the computers online, stock up supplies for the responders, get the air conditioning in the tents operational. Having the volunteers witness this irresponsibility has the officials shown for what the really are. Desk jockeys with little if any ability to take charge and assign details to those who wish to help

This government is getting better at CYA
Volunteers do things because they want to.
Government does things because they have to.
Who do you think is more interested in doing the work quickly and effectively?

[POAS]

80. Red Cross IN, Red Crescent OUT

[aquart]

85. So. MORE professionals standing around watching people die.

What a perfect solution. Almost a final solution.

[Miss Chybil]

88. The professionals did such a great job in New Orleans and the Gulf it only makes sense to do this.

:sarcasm:

[riona]

90. Oh come on - the volunteers usually get there first

[Pacifist Patriot]

93. As a volunteer first responder, I can see their point...

up to a point. Overall I think it is a bad idea. Very very bad idea. If they want to keep the site clear for rescue and recovery to do what it does best....keep the politicians seeking photo ops out of the area. I have to agree it makes covering up FUBARs way too easy.

[Orsino]

94. "Federal government" = (*-controlled) FEMA

The Federal Emergency Management Agency came up with the idea after the World Trade Center attack and Hurricane Katrina in 2005, when countless Americans rushed to help — unasked, undirected, and sometimes unwanted.

Mike Taylor, executive director of the National Demolition Association, said his industry is talking with aides to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger about putting it in place in his state.

"If California goes ahead and does that, it will flow across the country. This is a really smart idea by someone in the Bush administration to be able to control access to the site and frankly, make sure there are no untrained people," Taylor said. "If somebody goes running down to the site, you have to stop and ask them, wait, are they certified to do this work?"

So they want to stop and ask questions only during an emergency, yet the Senate won't similarly grill nominees to head these agencies?

[sarcasmo]

95. Easier to enforce Martial Law with less witnesses.

[kickysnana]

96. Wondered about the Flap at the 135 bridge...now I know. n/t