Schoolgirl ordered to dig ditch as punishment (by Seventh Day Adventist School)

[RamboLiberal]

Source: SF Gate.com/AP

A 10th grade student was told to dig a ditch as a form of punishment, raising the ire of at least one local resident.

Art Montejano, 67, of Calexico, said he spotted the girl digging Wednesday outside Calexico Mission School, a private school operated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

"Here was a little girl dressed in her school uniform digging a hole," Montejano said. "It's a form of corporal punishment that is not acceptable as far as I am concerned."

Principal Susan Smith said the girl's parents had approved the punishment. She was being disciplined along with another student for an unspecified deed. The other girl was made to sweep the campus.

Read more: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/09/08/state/n123808D71.DTL&tsp=1

---

BTW temps at the time were 88-94. And I thought Catholic schools in my day were tough. :sarcasm:

[PDJane]

1. The authoritarian mindset........

be a good little girl, or we'll set you to digging ditches or cleaning latrines.

It's getting worse; we need a revolution, and we have to start at the top and work down.

[pnwmom]

36. Have you seen this book that John Dean recommends? It's a free download.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

"OK, what’s this book about? It’s about what’s happened to the American government lately. It’s about the disastrous decisions that government has made. It’s about the corruption that rotted the Congress. It’s about how traditional conservatism has nearly been destroyed by authoritarianism. It’s about how the “Religious Right” teamed up with amoral authoritarian leaders to push its un-democratic agenda onto the country. It’s about the United States standing at the crossroads as the next federal election approaches.

“Well,” you might be thinking, “I don’t believe any of this is true.” Or maybe you’re thinking, “What else is new? I’ve believed this for years.” Why should a conservative, moderate, or liberal bother with this book? Why should any Republican, Independent, or Democrat click the “Introduction” link on this page?

" Because if you do, you’ll begin an easy-ride journey through some relevant scientific studies I have done on authoritarian personalities--one that will take you a heck of a lot less time than the decades it took me. Those studies have a direct bearing on all the topics mentioned above. So if you think the first paragraph is a lot of hokum, or full of half-truths, I invite you to look at the research."

SNIP

[fedupfisherman]

2. Child abuse?

"Principal Susan Smith said the girl's parents had approved the punishment. "

[pnwmom]

9. Child abuse and parental approval aren't mutually exclusive. n/t

[Exultant Democracy]

16. Parents are the ones usually doing the most terrible things in fact.

but we don't want to tell anyone how to raise their children do we.:sarcasm:

[Adsos Letter]

22. A 16 year old digging a hole for 2 hours (supervised and with breaks)

...and with the parents permission is child abuse?

Where to begin... . :crazy:

[pnwmom]

32. You can say that knowing that the temperatures reached 94 degrees in a

very dry area, and without knowing whether she had access to as much water as frequently as she needed it? (Only that she had "water breaks"?) Have you ever worked outside in the Southwest in that kind of heat? When I go to the Southwest I drink twice as much water as I do here, and yet always end up dehydrated anyway.

I think the man who reported this was in a better position to know what the conditions were like. He was out there in the heat. He knew what she must be going through.

[Adsos Letter]

37. I worked construction here in the west in excessive summer heat

...for over 30 years; I'm quite aware of what it is like.

I think your "concern" is based more on the fact that this took place at a Christian school...after all, if it's Christian, it must be bad, right?

[pnwmom]

39. No, why would you think that?

I'm always arguing with the atheists around here.

I'm Catholic myself, and I don't have anything against people of faith, except when they try to impose their beliefs on others.

I am concerned, however, about the creeping authoritarianism I see in this country over the Bush years, which is even in evidence here at DU.

[Adsos Letter]

53. Well if you knew anything about Seventh-day Adventists...

...you would know that they are one of the few denominations left who, as a denomintion, place Church/State separation very high on their list of priorities; right up there with sharing the Gospel. Freedom of conscience for everyone is a hallmark of their faith. If you have ever seen a copy of their magazine "Liberty" (which they distribute to Congress) you would know what I mean.
I apologize for jumping you; I just know a lot about this denomination and know many people in it; the OP seemed to want to make an issue out of the fact that this was a "Christian" school.

[pnwmom]

59. I don't know much about Adventists, that is true.

But I applaud any faith that preaches freedom of conscience and Church/State separation. I'll never understand the so-called Christians in this country who expound on religious freedom and yet work to impose Christian beliefs on others through the state.

[Adsos Letter]

67. I agree...

...it flies in the face of what I understand to be the teachings of the Gospel...

:hi:

[SayWhatYo]

133. You know, had it not been for the heat then I wouldn't have any real issues with this

but the the fact that it was so hot out they could have had her do something in doors...

[Adsos Letter]

135. yeah...that was probably an error in judgement, I agree...

[Xithras]

54. Eh, I work outside in that kind of heat on a regular basis.

It's all about acclimatization. When you go out into that kind of heat and STAY out in it, your body adapts to the heat and you're just fine as long as you get enough liquids. For a 16 year old girl with no health problems and adequate water, the temps would have to climb well over 100 before they became dangerous.

[Javaman]

106. Honestly, do you really think this girl is acclimated?

I worked construction as well and acclimation or not, it's still gets hot and ugly at those temps when doing labor.

I think water and a healthy dose of right guard are in order.

[CreekDog]

73. Yes, i worked outside in Tucson in July

94 for two hours is not bad. Not pleasant but not bad if supervised.

This is not too severe.

The point is to teach the rewards of good behavior and the punishment of bad behavior so that when adult life begins, they know, through trials and temptations how to avoid trouble and choose the right.

[jody]

3. I wonder what type discipline Montejano approves? n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

10. Normal things like Saturday detention or suspension, probably. Why the question? -nt

[jody]

13. "Why the question?" Because it's logical given his opposition and your opinion does not answer my

question.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. :hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Short of telepathy, what WOULD answer your question? -nt

[jody]

48. Nothing you say can answer my question. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

97. Then your question was good for nothing except carrying subtext. Which I won't get into. -nt

[Igel]

50. Saturday detention?

7th day adventists?

[CreekDog]

74. good catch igil

how ironic.

[donheld]

142. I'm afraid you'll have to ask his

dominatrix :D

[Cleita]

4. What's with these private schools and why aren't there laws

covering child abuse in them? Just today on "Ring of Fire", they were talking about a school for autistic children who was using electric shocks and white noise to punish the children and make them behave.

[ptolle]

27. abu ghraib theory of education

The latest issue of Mother Jones has a heart-rending article on the chain of schools you mention.It's almost enough to make one wish they'd send the detainees home but keep gitmo open.It's a for-profit outfit naturally the busheviks probably consider it a model for the next installment of NCLB or a training academy for "enhanced interrogators"

[CreekDog]

75. child abuse laws apply both inside and outside of all schools

C'mon, get a clue.

You think a child abuse law doesn't apply within a private school?

Man, what is with this place lately.

[Fearless]

5. Perhaps this thread by lynyrd_skynyrd would be invaluable...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x147737

It talks about whether or not it's possible to raise children without theistic bias. I also mention a few things wrong with our school system.

[Hardrada]

6. "What we have here is a failiuh to communicate."

from Cool Hand Luke. Same kind of mindset!

[Submariner]

7. Sicko jesus freaks

[Adsos Letter]

26. I suspect you know next to nothing about this denomination...

...perhaps I'm wrong... :shrug:

[pnwmom]

8. Reminds me of the children's bestseller, "HOLES."

Which was supposed to be fiction . . .

[NV Whino]

11. Since when

do Seventh Day Adventist schools have uniforms?

[Adsos Letter]

23. Some do...it depends on what the school board votes for...

...other than that, they usually just have a dress code...

Hello, NV WHINO, :hi:

[NV Whino]

49. Well...

In my little corner of the world, which is Adventist, the three Adventist schools don't have uniforms. :hi:

[Adsos Letter]

55. Yes...your "little corner of the world"...

...has PUC, PUC Prep, Foothills, and Napa Christian (used to be called NAJA) I do believe... I know I'm missing one, but can't bring it to mind...

It is true about how they go about the "uniform" thing, though...they almost went to uniforms at Napa Christian a couple years ago because they were considering trying to deal with issues regarding the "competition of display" between kids whose parents were wealthy and those who were much poorer; also to deal with issues regarding adherence to the dress code. In the end, they didn't do it.

[Robson]

12. Truthfully.....has work ever hurt anyone?

Generally speaking I've never known work to hurt anyone as long as conditions weren't abusive. In years past it was commonplace for children to help pay expenses and obtain an allowance by working. My wife used to pick farm products in high school. I worked from the time I was a young adult. I may not have especially liked it at the time, but it made me respect the value of work and the monetary reward.

The kids today spend far too much of their time in regimented non-work related extracurricular activities and sports, and honestly I don't see it doing much for their character and resume. Our society is getting soft and likely because some may view work as corporal punishment. LOL.

The girls in the OP were being punished for an unspecified deed. The parents approved. That's good enough for me and a far better method of discipline than true corporal punishment or physical abuse.

[pnwmom]

18. Truthfully, yes. Haven't you ever heard of heatstroke?

The temperatures that afternoon were up to 94 degrees. What do you want to bet they weren't keeping her supplied with fresh bottles of cold water?

[Robson]

20. Work can be good

Heat stroke is always a possibility. I'm many years senior of these girls and still regularly work outside in 90 degree + temps. A lot depends on humidity. I drink lots of water too.

I think they were trying to teach a lesson in life, not abuse them. Without knowing what they did it's hard to relate it to what our opinion of the punishment should be.

As someone mentioned if they were practicing for the band or a sport who would be complaining?

[pnwmom]

29. A lot does depend on humidity -- and we're talking about SoCal, not Georgia.

A teenager wouldn't know how much she'd have to drink to stay safe. I've spent time in the Southwest and it is amazing how much you have to drink there in hot weather, even when you're not exercising.

And the fact that she was given "water breaks" doesn't give ME any assurance that she actually had enough access to water. She should have been drinking almost continuously.

[Adsos Letter]

24. If you read the story you will see that she was under...

...constant adult supervision and received water when requestesd...

but you go ahead and try to make a "papillon" situation out of it...after all, "they're fundies" so they must be evil...

[pnwmom]

30. I read the story and all it said was that she had "water breaks."

That doesn't tell me she had water when she requested it or that she had enough water.

Exercising in that heat, and that low humidity, she should have been drinking a lot of water, and frequently. I've spent time in that part of the country and you can get very dehydrated very quickly.

[Adsos Letter]

38. Oh please.....

...I am quite sure she got water as often as she needed or wanted it...I think your response to this one has to do with the fact that it is a conservative Christian school...and, by default, guilty of every kind of vile thing...

[CreekDog]

77. Oh come on, calm down and take your rage over to the Iraq forum

Where it might be useful.

Egads, are you afraid of any punishment whatsoever?!

[pnwmom]

93. No, I'm not "afraid" of any punishment whatsoever.

But I think punishment -- as opposed to discipline or logical consequences -- should have little place in a school setting. And a punishment without any useful by-product (unlike picking up litter, etc.) seems especially stupid.

[CreekDog]

95. That's your opinion

Pointless actitivity is not pointless if it makes you think about what you did.

Penance works in the same way in that it does not absolve you of sin, but forces you to consider your actions which have necessitated forgiveness.

God will use whatever time you spend doing work and considering your actions to his and your own benefit. That is my opinion, but then so was yours. I hope I'm right and you're wrong or there's no point in penance.

[pnwmom]

98. Penance, if it is to have any meaning at all,

has to be voluntary. Any time a child is ordered by an adult to do "penance" then it's not voluntary -- and it's not penance, just punishment.

(And it's not voluntary if the refusal to comply brings negative consequences, such as suspension or expulsion from school.)

[treestar]

101. The punishment in this case is rather medieval

Humanity has made progress in this area as in all others.

Whatever kids do wrong in school, this is too much for, and there are many far more effective ways of dealing with it.

If anything, the people in this school are woefully ignorant and behind the times.

It's not a matter of being "afraid of punishment." It is a matter of knowing how to raise children.

[CreekDog]

76. hard work is great for teaching kids to work hard

to have the better "indoor" jobs.

I think physical labor as punishment is fine within reason and to teach a lesson, and this was mild because of the time limit.

And 94 in the SoCal desert is not that bad to work in. It's the 114 where people frequently work in the fields, on the lots and on the roofs already that we should be worried about.

[MaraJade]

21. I'm with you.

Making kids work IS good for their character. I have a teen and I do know that kids today are a lot lazier than they were in my "day."
(My "day" being the sixties and seventies.) Sometimes it seems that even asking them to clean their rooms is considered abusive by some people. Sheesh! As long as the conditions of the work are reasonable (and there is nothing in any of this that implies that they are not), there is nothing wrong with that type of punishment.

When I was a child, one of my mother's favorite punishments was making an "offender" wash the floors in the house along with "grounding" for a certain amount of time. Knowing that friends were going off to see a movie while you had to stay home and scrub floors was very effective for teaching you to behave yourself.

[pnwmom]

35. And what is the point of purposeless work?

And have you ever exercised in 90 degree temperatures with the low humidity of Calexico? As a mother, wouldn't you be concerned about heatstroke and want to make sure that your teen had access to as much water as she needed, when she needed it? Would you be satisfied just to know she'd have "water breaks"? What the heck does that mean?

My daughter went to a summer camp once where the counsellors thought that adequate water meant giving the kids dixie cups once every couple hours or so. I had to reeducate them.

[MilesColtrane]

57. It's not purposeless.

It's purpose is punishment.

It's no worse than having to run laps all period because you were mouthing off to the PE instructor.

(Which is something I only did once....because the punishment SUCKED.)

[pnwmom]

64. We don't even have chain gangs digging holes for no reason.

Except in novels.

They could have had her cleaning, like the other student, or picking up litter or some other task that had a real purpose. That makes a lot more sense to me.

[timtom]

69. I don't even want to begin to describe

life in Marine Corps boot camp at Parris Island between late June and late August.

[pnwmom]

86. My uncle died in a Marine Corps boot camp. So I can imagine.

He was forced to scrub the bathroom floors after he complained of a severe headache. He died of spinal meningitis early the next morning.

[timtom]

103. I'm very for your loss.

It seems meningitis thrives in crowded situations, like college dorms and military boot camps.

[pnwmom]

105. Yes, it does.

And bad headaches and stiff necks should never be ignored.

Thank you, nathan hale, for your words. It was more my mother's loss than mine, but she's never really gotten over it. And she's especially bitter about hearing from a fellow soldier that he was kept in a straight jacket while he was dying.

My grandfather had been a marine too and you can imagine what this did to him.

[CreekDog]

80. Amen

[CreekDog]

79. It's not pointless work, the point was to punish and teach a lesson

So that the same behavior was not again repeated. Punishment is not pointless, it is intended to improve the person by pointing them in the right direction.

Also, for comparison, I was a grad student who had to work outdoors at the Univ. Arizona farm during the summer and it was miserable, but not harmful and there was no shade, low-ish humidity and usually over 105.

And I can say that all the jobs I had that were unpleasant or involved physical labor that I didn't like doing kept me working hard in school so that I could choose what type of work I wanted to do.

And if a conservative Christian school can help produce responsible, educated kids, then there should be more schools like that. And if a public school does the same, there should be more schools that do likewise too.

I thought the point of parental punishment is to teach kids the risks of bad behavior. Thus a permanent lesson without permanent harm, unlike punishment in the real/adult world that provides both permanent punishment and permanent harm.

[pnwmom]

87. You weren't digging holes that were of no use to anybody

and I bet you had plenty of water when you needed it. We don't know that about this girl -- and I know from experience that people in charge of children don't always understand how much water people need to be healthy. The camp that my daughter went to thought -- until I reeducated them -- that a dixie cup's worth every couple hours was sufficient.

[CreekDog]

94. we were building shelters for cotton plants back in the mid 1990's

to simulate global warming's expected warmer nights.

The cotton was exposed to full sun during the day and at night the shelters reduced radiational cooling.

I didn't spend a lot of time doing this, but it was character building and I couldn't get enough water either to drink or pour over my head. But that was a killer-hot summer, frequently over 110.

[treestar]

102. Just because you experienced something doesn't make it right

Why are you so into the punishment of others?

We don't even know what this girl did wrong. But whatever it was, there was so far better way to "teach her a lesson."

Those are the words of authoritarians. Do as I say, or I'll punish you by making your life unpleasant in some physical way.

Kids are learning, they don't know, so they don't deserve "punishment" for what they don't know.

Your mind is in the 19th century or earlier.

[Bill McBlueState]

96. "kids today are a lot lazier"

Do you have evidence for that? Or just a limited set of personal observations? I ask because it's common for older people to make sweeping negative generalizations about younger people without good evidence. That leads me to believe that these generalizations are more a product of observational bias than of any actual decline in the population's work ethic.

[lapfog_1]

28. I'll be happy to have you come and dig ditches

where I live (SE Arizona).

Where this happened (according to the article) the temps ranged from 88 to 94 (started at 8am).
(Calexico is south of the Salton Sea and west of Yuma... digging ditches there in late August or early September would kill me)

In the desert, hard work under the sun can kill someone quick, even if they have water.

I'm also wondering if the school uniform is appropriate for doing manual labor in 90+ heat, probably with no shade over the working area?

[LeftyMom]

14. 94? We have days where it doesn't get that low at night. Never got me out of work.

An hour or two of physical work is good for a healthy kid- if she'd been out there putting tree is in for arbor day instead this wouldn't be news at all, nor would it be if she was running laps for punishment, it's only the relative novelty of the punishment (especially for a girl) that makes this news.

[pop goes the weasel]

15. I have no problem with that sort of discipline

Two hours of manual labor by a healthy teenager girl during temperatures of around 90F? With plenty of water breaks? That's not abusive. If she had been practicing soccer for 2 hours, no one would have even noticed. The article doesn't give much information, so for all we know, the girl chose ditch digging out of a handful of punishments. I'm not a big fan of religious schools, or religion at all, but unless there is a lot that hasn't been reported, this really doesn't seem like anything more than a conscientious neighbor making sure that nothing untoward was happening. And nothing untoward was happening. Move along, nothing to see.

[pnwmom]

33. Have you been exercising recently in SoCal in the heat?

Do you have any idea how dry it can be there? And how do you know she had "plenty" of water breaks? The article doesn't say that.

I think the man who observed and reported this was in a better position than we are to judge the appropriateness of this. He was out there in the heat and he was concerned.

[MadHound]

40. I've exercised for hours in Missouri heat this summer, each and every day

With temperatures ranging from the high eighties to the low triple digits. Humidity ranged from thirty percent to eighty percent(which is much harder on you than low humidity). I did this wearing jeans, a tshirty with a long sleeved work shirty over that, all to prevent mosquito and tick bites(West Nile and ehrlichiosis). I'm forty six, no spring chicken, and the worst thing that happened to me was lots of sweating and I lost weight(which I needed to). I've worked out in summer heat all my life, and frankly I find the notion that somehow it is abusive to be ridiculous. She was under adult supervision, she got regular water, I see no problem with this.

Sometimes people are so desperate to bash their favority boogieman that they'll use the flimsiest of excuses.

[pnwmom]

60. I have worked in places with both high and low humidity.

While it may be more uncomfortable to work in high humidity, water requirements are MUCH higher in low humidity, and dehydration is a constant risk.

You don't know that the girl in this case got regular or adequate water -- "water breaks" doesn't tell us anything. My daughter attended a camp once where the idea of adequate water was a dixie cup every couple hours -- and you can bet they heard from me.

[Romulox]

144. You've got it exactly backwards--high humidity is more dangerous than low

High humidity is more dangerous than low humidity at the same temperature, because in low humidity, the body has a much easier time shedding heat in the form of sweat, which quickly evaporates. In high humidity, sweat can't evaporate, and thus the body's heat-elimination system can't function as well. Therefore, heat stroke is a much greater threat in high humidity than low humidity, given the same temp.

It's not that you need more water in low humidity conditions; it's that your heat-shedding system (sweat) works effectively under those conditions.

[pop goes the weasel]

51. No--Texas in temperatures over 95

With lots of humidity this year, just to change things up from the usual summer drought pattern.

Give it a rest. They checked with her parents, who, presumedly, would know if their daughter has a medical condition that would prevent her from doing manual labor outdoors in the summer. The road crew that's been busy on the highway a couple miles off scoffs in your general direction. The roofers can scarcely contain their disdain. The 12 year boy who's been cutting my neighbor's lawn all summer wonders what your problem is.

I think the man who called in the complaint did the right thing, thinking there might be a problem and having authorities check it out. It doesn't look like there was anything abusive going on, though. If there's a follow-up that shows different, I'll change my mind.

[pnwmom]

61. All the people that you mention probably have control

of how much and how often they can drink water -- something that we don't know about this girl.

[pop goes the weasel]

63. That's right

We don't know. Either way. You can live your life assuming the worst of people, or live it assuming the best. One way leads to liberty, the other to an intrusive state.

[pnwmom]

66. I'm taking a healthy distrust of authority. You're assuming, on the basis

of few facts, that the school authorities know what they're doing.

[pop goes the weasel]

78. distrust of all authority but the press?

Fact one: The parents apparently thought this was an appropriate punishment for the unspecified misdeed.
Fact two: Police investigated based on a neighbor's concerns.
Fact three: There is no mention of charges--no citations, no warnings--which is exactly the sort of outcome one expects when there is no crime.

I know nothing at all about these people. Neither do you. All that we have is one newspaper article. Just because something hits the newspapers does not mean that it is important or something to fret over or even true. A few years back, my small town paper ran a front page article on a police call to investigate "voodoo pants". Was there an incipient breakout of enchanted clothing threatening rural central Texas? I think not. It was a slow news day and a rather odd police report. Seeing as how no charges of any sort, or complaints from anyone except a passing neighbor, are mentioned in the news article about this alledged ditch digging--not even a picture of the alledged ditch--I tend to think that slow news day amply fills the bill on this, too.

Like I said, give me more information, and I might change my mind. Until then, oh what's that thing? Oh yeah--presumption of innocence. I hear tell it's some kind of fundamental right. But hell with that, eh? Let's round us up a posse and a mob of angry villagers. Between the hanging and the burning, we'll have a swell ol' time.

[CreekDog]

81. It's a "man bites dog" story

Not an article about the scandal of child abuse.

And I don't think the poster was exhibiting a healthy distrust of authority, but an unhealthy hysteria towards authority.

At some point for a society to function, we all have to trust each other a bit to do our jobs, despite fairly little oversight. Things are getting so bad that teachers can hardly punish their own students for bad behavior with the support of their parents who think that only THEY can mete out punishment.

"It takes a village" and I agree.

[Ian David]

17. Douchebaggery. n/t

[Adsos Letter]

25. opinion...not argument...

[Ian David]

44. True. n/t

[CreekDog]

82. Douchebaggery is not even a comprehensible criticism

So, not only is it pointless, but it is meaningless. Nobody has any idea what good ole Ian thinks of this.

FIRE BAD!

[1monster]

19. Shades of HOLES...

[pnwmom]

31. That's exactly what I thought. I wonder if that's where these dummies

got the idea.

[CreekDog]

83. I think they'd be safer in Holes than they would be in Juvy.

And time spent digging a ditch is a hell of a lot more valuable than time in detention hall with a bunch of other miscreants. Yeah, I've been in detention, it was less than useless. It was easy and boring and I can think of a dozen punishments that were worse, but more helpful.

[1monster]

104. Now, when I was in high school, detention was a real deterrant. You not only

had to stay in school after the 2:35 release bell (we started classes at 7:30 a.m.) till 4:00, but your parents were really teed off that they had to rearrange their work schedules to pick you up after detention.

And teachers rarely ever gave out only one day of detention. If they were handing it out, the minimum was usually three days and quite often a week.

(I was a good kid. Never did so much as a day in detention... I'm told it was not pleasant.)

Today, detention often means getting to school a half hour before classes start and copying ridiculous paragraphs that say something like: "Schools have rules about chewing gum in classes for a reason. I broke the rule about chewing gum. I need to have self-discipline..." ad nauseum.

It is a joke to the kids and the parents get ticked off at the teachers.

If one is given after school detention, then there is what they call an "activity bus" that will deliver you to your home... The parents are not put out and the kid is only slightly inconvenienced.

[pnwmom]

34. Once again, some of the reactions around here are reminding me

of the book that John Dean is recommending that everyone read: THE AUTHORITARIANS. It's well worth a serious read.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

"OK, what’s this book about? It’s about what’s happened to the American government lately. It’s about the disastrous decisions that government has made. It’s about the corruption that rotted the Congress. It’s about how traditional conservatism has nearly been destroyed by authoritarianism. It’s about how the “Religious Right” teamed up with amoral authoritarian leaders to push its un-democratic agenda onto the country. It’s about the United States standing at the crossroads as the next federal election approaches.

“Well,” you might be thinking, “I don’t believe any of this is true.” Or maybe you’re thinking, “What else is new? I’ve believed this for years.” Why should a conservative, moderate, or liberal bother with this book? Why should any Republican, Independent, or Democrat click the “Introduction” link on this page?

"Because if you do, you’ll begin an easy-ride journey through some relevant scientific studies I have done on authoritarian personalities--one that will take you a heck of a lot less time than the decades it took me. Those studies have a direct bearing on all the topics mentioned above. So if you think the first paragraph is a lot of hokum, or full of half-truths, I invite you to look at the research."

SNIP

[Adsos Letter]

56. I already apologized for jumping you on this thing; however,...

...you are still way off base if you think my response to your post was "authoritarian"; SDAs are in the very forefront of the fight to keep Church/State separate in this country, they have a well-funded Religious Liberty department which works actively to support freedom of conscience for everyone. They abhor the intrusions of politics into religion and vice-versa.

I don't take issue with your first paragraph, but you can't put SDAs into that group if you know anything about them. That is what I was reacting to in my posts on this thread.

[pnwmom]

62. No, I'm not counting you or even the school in this category.

Just the people who -- without knowing any more facts than we know from the article -- seem to want to support what happened, merely because someone in charge decided this was the right thing to do.

I think a little healthy distrust of authority -- including those in my own church -- is always a good thing.

[Adsos Letter]

71. Agreed...

And please consider this a public apology for posting from emotion...

[TheMadMonk]

41. Something for everyone.

First of all acclimatisation is everything. For me, or virtually any Australian, 94 (at any humidity) is not particularly dangerous. And I suspect the same goes for this girl who is used to living under her own local conditions.

As has been pointed out, no one bats an eyelid as they send their kid off to two hours of sporting practice of one sort or another. Under exactly the same conditions no less.

And I'll bet there's more than a few of us who recall swinging a pick we could barely lift to dig a hole for the sake of digging a hole when we were far younger than this young lady.

I'll bet that far fewer people (including Art Montejano, 67, of Calexico) would have taken an exception to her being handed a spade instead of a shovel and put to turning over the school's vegetable garden.

No one seems to be screaming blue murder about the mate being "made" to sweep the schoolyard. HOORAY!!! Chauvinism's not dead. And it's alive and well in the female psyche as well. Girl dig, bad. Girl sweep, ok. Oh. :sarcasm: btw. However, at least a little of that attitude does seem to come through nonetheless.


Actually you might want to try sweeping concrete and/or macadam for two hours before deciding which of the two tasks is more arduous.

[CreekDog]

84. I have nurse friends who dug a ditch for Habitat for Humanity this summer

They ached the day after, but they didn't consider it abuse. Hell, the volunteered for it. But they were using a jackhammer, which they thought contributed to the muscle aches the next day.

[InkAddict]

42. In 1966 my friend and I met some guys at a theater for a movie

As we were not yet allowed to "date," when my RW fundie parents found out they grounded me for a month with an exception. My friends, girls only, were forced to attend a hellfire and brimstone appointment for a lecture by w/a local clergyman (not even at our own church) where we learned about the evils of disobedience and sex. The movie...The Great Race, was hardly X-rated. Their favorite line on the subject of dating was "every date --a potential mate." Later on it was "no matter how crooked the pot, there's always a lid to fit it." Social skill building with one's peers and self-esteem had little to do with growing up. It wasn't that difficult to come to a limiting conclusion that people (including me and my friends) were 99.9% intrinsically and irrepairably defective.

[mbperrin]

43. Punishment, as always, useless.

Punishments have no place in the school environment, where learning is supposed to be the idea. Nothing useful happens during punishment, neither learning, nor any action that will actually help anyone. Punishments are a favorite of those who have themselves been punished and now have a chance to pass it on, and for those who are afraid of those their same size or larger.

And yes, I teach, for the last dozen years, in a large (2700+) public high school, have 3 children, five grandchildren, and two great grandchildren, none of whom I would dream of punishing or murdering, either, because punishments are murder for the soul.

Teaching is hard. Assigning someone to dig a useless hole, especially in hot weather and in public for the humiliation of it all, is easy, and probably helps someone when they're ready to flog their mule to spend less time on the little chore.

[Snarkturian Clone]

46. You must teach in the suburbs.

Come to the inner city and teach and we'll see what no punishment gets you.

For the record, the digging punishment is unacceptable.

Edited to add: If you DO teach in the city and can function without punishment, please PM me some strategies. I'd be happy to entertain them.

[mbperrin]

52. I teach in a 67% minority school in one of the poorer counties

in Texas about 3 blocks from downtown. The school was founded in 1909, current building in 1939 with many additions since. Just rated an unsafe school by Texas Education Agency and acceptable academically. I teach 6 sections of 28-35 students each semester.

Here's my tips (they're no secret to fans of scaffolding, support, and connection): I live in the neighborhood about 6 blocks from school, and I see my kids at work and at large often; I'm a local, and I acknowledge their own situation (about 85% work as a matter of family necessity, gangs do not require written applications, because they are not picky, hard work does not necessarily lead to success, it may just make you tired, and a bit more. I then promise them the following: I will be honest with them, and I will try to help them, both academically and otherwise, so please ask me for help. I will never intentionally embarrass anyone. I also assure them that we will do our level best to have some fun while we are working, and that I will not issue more work as a reward for completing work. I vary my instruction and my assessments; often a verbal check individually will suffice. We sometimes plan ahead a week or so until everyone can bring $5 and have the local Chinese restaurant cater us a "feast" with multiple dishes and cheesecake for dessert. The whole point: anything that helps us learn in a measurable way is good, anything else is bad, so we must be comfortable, safe, preferably happy and ready to help each other with problems of any kind. The kids do the work after the first 3 or 4 weeks, and the first thing they tell me when I see them later (years later sometimes) is what college they're attending or have graduated from and where they're going next.

It works, and the worst thing is that there's not 7 steps or anything snappy like that ;)

Thanks for YOUR service! I began teaching later in life after 30 years in industry and banking, and I wish I had come sooner.

[NYC]

65. Congratulations on a job well done.

You are serving the public admirably.

[Snarkturian Clone]

70. I teach at a 98% minority school.

If you count hispanic as white. If you don't, then it's 100%. Our school was founded 6 years ago and running in a 80 year old oldsmobile manufacturing plant in north philadelphia.

I'm at a school that includes all the special ed kids in all classes but without any support staff, making for a class half-full with speds with no support- many of which are emotionally disturbed. Many of our kids are poor and receive free lunch but mysteriously have $200 sneakers, psp's, and jewelry. On top of this we are unionless (charter school) and it shows. Not a single person on our admin has ever been a teacher. They were just given jobs because they knew the CEO.

Of course, this isn't a contest for how difficult our teaching situations are. I just need to vent before I go back tomorrow.
Thanks for your encouragement, I'm sorry for being snarky with you earlier.

:toast:

[mbperrin]

108. I will tell you that it makes a tremendous difference when you have

good administrators, which we do, even though the physical plant is not all it could be. You sound like you are in a terrible place, and I will send positive thoughts your way. You definitely were not snarky, but I know I often come off as self satisfied and preachy, and I'm sorry for that!

The other advantage I have now is that I get little brothers and sisters and cousins and so on who already know how we do business, and that makes it easier yet. Hang in there, got to do something about unions sooner or later, and please have as good a year as you possibly can!

:toast:

[ismnotwasm]

121. Thank you to you both

I live in a multi-ethnic working class area, quite inner city. (We call it rat city). When my daughter was deployed to Afghanistan, we took care of my grandson his first year of school. Although his kindergarten class was small, there were 5 "problem" kids, one of which was my grandson. (A couple of these kids appeared so damaged it was scary--this WAS kindergarten) He got suspended for choking another child. I ended up going to class and helping out as often as I could, so I saw a lot.

The discipline was safety first, rewarding good behavior second through contracts, anything punitive was a last resort. The teacher spent a lot of time with these kids, one who had frequent meltdowns, and would have to be removed from class. He did a fantastic good working with what he had. (Old books and equipment for instance)

It wasn't just the teacher, it was the whole school, I noticed they noticed these kids, cared about them, tried to show them the best path.

I read your little exchange, and just want to say you both have my admiration for sticking it out and caring. The kids need you desperately, as I'm sure you know.

[pnwmom]

90. Some of the people think that there is only one kind of discipline,

and that is punishment. But, for the authority, whether the parent or teacher or whoever, punishment is the lazy way out. There are far better methods of discipline, but they may take more thought or more time.

I know there are great teachers like you because my kids have benefited from them. Thank you for all your hard work!

[Wise Doubter]

45. My brother went to a Christian "rehab": type center...

part of the program was having him dig a hole 6 feet deep. It was supposed to represent burying your "old self".

Turns out, they were putting in a new septic tank!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[sarcasmo]

58. That's what you get with a Theocracy.

The Girls parents approved the punishment, nothing like being brainwashed by Religion.

[Adsos Letter]

68. Again...this reflects ignorance concerning this denomination...

...they are as far from state Theocracy as you can get

[sarcasmo]

115. When you allow the church to discipline your child that is Theocracy.

Or maybe, Stupidity is a better word.

[Adsos Letter]

116. No...when parents allow a school to discipline their kid

...it is discipline...it has nothing to do with Theocracy in any form, no matter how you wish to define it...stupidity is making the assumption that school discipline is somehow linked to some kind of mandate/direction from God...

[sarcasmo]

118. They told the Church it was OK to discipline their kid. As an Atheist you can NOT convince me this

is OK.

On Edit: I bet you those parents and that Church just created another Atheist.

[Adsos Letter]

122. I doubt very much that they created another Atheist....

...and it was a school issue of discipline, not a church one.

[sarcasmo]

124. Is the School not associated with the Church?

[Adsos Letter]

125. Yes, it is...

...but, outside of a bible class, the schedule is designed to prepare kids for higher academia in the secular world.

I am very, very familiar with SDA education...and I can practically guarantee you that no one was standing over her telling her what a bad kid she was in the eyes of Jesus, or that God disapproved of her, or anything like that.
I would be very surprised if theology even entered into it...it was a matter of breaking school rules, to which all parents and kids agree to abide when they enroll.

From your line of reasoning I would have to think that discipline in the public school system would create a shrieking wave of students headed for the doors of parochial schools...not something I have noticed.

I will say that non-SDA parents have often placed their kids in SDA schools because discipline is better, the education is first-rate, and there is less violence and drug usage.

edit: spelling :dunce:

[baldguy]

72. Any atrocity is acceptable as long as its done in the name of religion.

[CreekDog]

85. nobody sad that baldguy

but make it into the bogeyman that it isn't if it makes you more sure of yourself.

[Adsos Letter]

99. Atrocity?

...kind of demeans the value of the term "atrocity" I think...

[sarcasmo]

119. Well said, all in the name of Religion.

[Adsos Letter]

127. I would hardly refer to this case as an atrocity perpetrated...

in the name of religion...unless, of course, you feel some personal need to slam these people.

[JVS]

88. Considering that there are people who have to do that for a job, I don't think it is beyond having..

someone do.

[pnwmom]

91. But an adult with a job has working conditions that are protected by law.

All we know is that the girl had "water breaks," whatever that means -- not that she had enough water, or water whenever she was thirsty.

And that an observer was concerned enough about her welfare to report the situation.

[JVS]

92. The kid also has conditions protected by law.

IF they harm her, THEN they have hell to pay. But until then, carry on.

[Adsos Letter]

100. ...it wasn't a ditch...it was a 2' deep hole...

[sarcasmo]

120. Where in the article does it say that. It says She dug for two hours.

[Adsos Letter]

123. It doesn't...I know people in the denomination there...

...it was a 2' deep hole; she got breaks when she asked for them, got water when she asked for it, was under constant adult supervision, and didn't even dig the full 2 hours the article claims. As to what "infraction" caused the discipline I can't find out because of privacy issues.

[Odin2005]

89. I'm OK with this as long as "unspecified deed" was something serious and...

...she was given enough water breaks. If she was made to do this just because she was, say, mouthing off and being rude in class that kind of punishment would be unacceptable IMO. But if the "unspecified deed" was something like bullying another student then I think this is an entirely appropriate punishment.

[Enrique]

107. what kind of ditch?

how deep? What are they going to do with the ditch when she's done? So many questions unanswered by the article.

[superconnected]

109. I'm offended that a 16 year old was referred to as "little girl".

[guitar man]

110. oh boo hoo

When I was her age, my sisters and I would haul hay all summer long at 6 cents a bale to make money and when we got in trouble at achool, coach would make us run laps until we were ready to drop.

good gawd, I swear we are becoming some real candy-asses in this country.

[Runcible Spoon]

111. *shudder* I'm having flashbacks of hayin' season

especially those hazy muggy days, the ones you had to haul ass on because it could thunderstorm at any moment and ruin entire fields. Of course, the only payment I got was that my spoiled horse could eat :rofl: I'd rather dig a ditch for 2 hours than throw hay. You and your shovel can determine pace, but the bailer and the sky are your masters when you hay.

[guitar man]

112. damn right

I can remember more than one summer afternoon throwing hay like a madman and watching the sky darkening to the southwest knowing that rain was coming and we damn well better beat it to the barn with the hay if we wanted old Mr Watson to pay us!

I remember we got cocky because we had been hauling alfalfa for the last few farms we did and then we got into a large field of peanut hay. Where most of the alfalfa weighed in at 40-60 lbs a bale, the peanut hay weighed in at 100lb or better for the same sized bale. We never mad THAT bidding mistake again, from than on, we added 2-3 cents a bale anytime we saw that shit.

[Trillo]

113. This is tremendously short sighted.

One shouldn't teach children that physical labor is punishment or deserving of no monetary compensation, unless one is an authoritarian in a rigged economic system.

If I was the little girl, I think I'd start studying atheism and promote it disruptively during class and chapel. Eventually, the school will wise up and expel her. Surely expulsion is much less psyche-damaging in the long term than teaching that physical labor is worthless and punishment.

MorAns = lesAns
up = down

[Adsos Letter]

117. That 16 year old "little girl"...

...dug a 2' deep hole... "Oh, the humanity"...

[Trillo]

126. Did you have a point or counterpoint?

Until then, I'll put your obscure words under the "authoritarian in a rigged economic system" dominance-hierarchy group.

[donheld]

141. Agreed.

Some how my sympathy is elsewhere. Bet if the "little girl" had been a "little boy" Mr. Art Montejano would have said nothing.

[Adsos Letter]

128. Actually...

that school system has a very well-developed program of work-study which allows kids to earn wages for after school work around the campus...that certainly doesn't devalue physical labor; in fact, if you knew anything at all about this denomination, you would be aware that, while they have a high percentage of college graduates, they emphasize the value of physical labor.

As to where you place my ideas...well, put 'em where you want.

[Trillo]

129. If true, then the system of disincentive they are using is

self-contradictory, unless they paid for the digger and sweeper. Is that your claim? That they were, in fact, paid?

[Adsos Letter]

130. No, it isn't self-contradictory...

if they HAD paid the digger or the sweeper then THAT would be self-contradictory: equating paid physical labor with discipline or something unseemly. No, I would say that unpaid physical labor would be a form of discipline that in no way dishonors paid physical labor, or voluntary physical labor for that matter...

In fact, many of those kids choose to go on trips to underdeveloped areas where they help build small clinics, schools, churches, and on these trips the value of voluntary physical labor in support of humanity is stressed and valued.

[Trillo]

131. Actually, there is one major difference,

and that difference is "compulsed" versus "voluntary".

At least you finally made a point, it sure took awhile to pry it out of you. However, you still haven't dealt with my original point which was that the school is teaching that 'physical labor' is both punishment and is worthless.

It's a stupid lesson to teach children: that their labor has zero value. I suspect it is part of 'the school' establishing what is known as a 'dominance hierarchy' when escape is blocked, and which likely has gender specific responses.

[Adsos Letter]

132. I dealt with your original point just fine...

"you still haven't dealt with my original point which was that the school is teaching that 'physical labor' is both punishment and is worthless."

Yes, I did; these kids have access to a work-study program which pays them hourly wages...how does that do anything but promote the value of manual labor?

"It's a stupid lesson to teach children: that their labor has zero value. I suspect it is part of 'the school' establishing what is known as a 'dominance hierarchy' when escape is blocked, and which likely has gender specific responses"

These kids aren't being taught that their labor has no value...just the opposite: NOT being paid for labor is the discipline here.

These kids go on trips where labor for under-developed communities is voluntary, and those are voluntary programs; no one is coerced into going. There the point is to emphasize that service for the less-fortunate shouldn't require payment, but should help foster a spirit of volunteerism toward humanity. How does that denigrate manual labor?

As to your "dominance hierarchy"...yeah, it's based on respect for legitimate authority, as in any school system, religious, secular, or otherwise...

As far as "gender-specific responses"...I don't know what kind of label you are so anxious to brand SDAs with...but they instill the value that women are not inferior to men, many SDA women hold positions of authority in the church as well as the working world. Girls aren't treated any differently than boys in the school system.

I have two girls who went k-12 in the SDA schools. One graduated with honors from UC Davis (Neurobiology) and is now in her second year of med-school, and honoring most of her classes.

The younger one is finishing 12th grade, and headed to NYU next year for a career in Journalism.

I would love to hear you tell them that they are somehow "inferior" to boys...

Check out my signature...SDAs hold to that point of view...

edit: spelling :dunce:

[Trillo]

137. A dishonest debate technique.

I wrote: "you still haven't dealt with my original point which was that the school is teaching that 'physical labor' is both punishment and is worthless."

You wrote: Yes, I did; these kids have access to a work-study program which pays them hourly wages...how does that do anything but promote the value of manual labor?

You're answering a question with another question that is off point. The issue in the OP wasn't a work-study program, it was stated and assigned as two punishments to two students. Therefore, you're shifting the topic of discussion toward other voluntary programs the students may choose to do, possibly because you cannot adequately defend compulsory in-school zero-compensation labor.

It's a dishonest debate technique of yours, shifting the topic.

While I'm no expert, Dominance Hierarchies in brief have two objectives, one is to find the dominant ones, usually those willing to be aggressive and violent, and the other is to elicit submission to the dominant ones. The dominant ones do this by making the submissive ones feel powerless through punishment and non-reward, one primary characteristic of this social phenomenon is the blocking of escape, this becomes a self-perpetuating cycle as the submissive ones feel they are powerless to challenge without receiving more punishment from the dominant ones. The curiosity is that the submissive ones actually encourage the dominant one's control over them.

'Dominance Hierarchies' are distinct from 'cooperative associations' that are beneficial to all parties. Sometimes the terms 'competitive' versus 'cooperative' are used to distinguish between the two human social systems. That is not to say that Dominance Heirarchies have no value, they apparently have some when it comes to defense of the group against a physical aggressor ... otherwise, they seem to have little value to those who submit for other reasons.

It is inappropriate for a school to teach any child they are powerless. I understand it generally manifests in submissive, quiet women who do as they're told, and in dominant males as aggression, sometimes violence, in seeking the position of dominance. I'll leave the obvious connection of patriarchy and Christianity, and it's generational perpetuation in this particular religious school, to the reader.

The reason it's inappropriate in a school to teach powerlessness is that it creates violence in some (not all), it's difficult to predict which ones, and that's an outcome that it's curious that so-called intelligent people would choose to perpetuate in a system that claims to not want violence and or aggression.

This is my last response to you on this sub-thread.

[Adsos Letter]

139. Oh my...

"I wrote: "you still haven't dealt with my original point which was that the school is teaching that 'physical labor' is both punishment and is worthless."

You wrote: Yes, I did; these kids have access to a work-study program which pays them hourly wages...how does that do anything but promote the value of manual labor?

You're answering a question with another question that is off point. The issue in the OP wasn't a work-study program, it was stated and assigned as two punishments to two students. Therefore, you're shifting the topic of discussion toward other voluntary programs the students may choose to do, possibly because you cannot adequately defend compulsory in-school zero-compensation labor.

It's a dishonest debate technique of yours, shifting the topic."

I answered your question: the act of labor without pay is the form of discipline here. Other programs reinforce the idea of manual labor as both honorable and productive. This denomination in no way denigrates physical labor.

Try to avoid simplistic thought patterns...

Shall we move along?


"It is inappropriate for a school to teach any child they are powerless. I understand it generally manifests in submissive, quiet women who do as they're told, and in dominant males as aggression, sometimes violence, in seeking the position of dominance. I'll leave the obvious connection of patriarchy and Christianity, and it's generational perpetuation in this particular religious school, to the reader"

Yeah, well you would have to...'cause you aren't capable of defending your assertion. Your idea of "patriarchal Christianity" is a stereotype based upon fundamentalist models which are not applicable to all denominations...this one included.

Stereotypical thought is the sign of a weak mind...or maybe just a lazy one...

Shall we move on?

"The reason it's inappropriate in a school to teach powerlessness is that it creates violence in some (not all), it's difficult to predict which ones, and that's an outcome that it's curious that so-called intelligent people would choose to perpetuate in a system that claims to not want violence and or aggression."

Ah, yeah...nobody was teaching this kid to accept "powerlessness". The motivation here was to remind kids that breaking legitimate rules has consequences...it's normally what a society does when it wants to educate people in what is involved in being a productive citizen. A kid who learns to respect legitimate authority now may well be spared some pretty harsh sorrows later in life.

"This is my last response to you on this sub-thread."

Well, that's fine...your thinly veiled insults and general obtuseness were becoming tiresome...

[SayWhatYo]

134. I think overall many kids wouldn't view it as 'labour is worthless'

but rather they will view it as breaking the defined rules is worthless. Now, if you're thinking that the rules themselves are authoritarian then that is a whole different debate.

[Adsos Letter]

136. I agree...

and I don't know what the infraction was...but at the school my girls went to the rules were pretty standard fare, although they might seem antiquated to some. Other than what is normal at most schools, they did have a dress code less "revealing" than public school (skirts no higher than 5" above the knee, no bare tummies, no gaudy make-up. There is a troubling bit of hypocrisy concerning jewelry: earrings, etc. are not allowed to be worn on campus; however, in church most of the women wear a normal amount of jewelry. Most of the teachers recognize this hypocrisy. We have tried to get it changed, but until they do, most parents simply acknowledge the double-standard to our kids and tell them the jewelry thing is just part of the school rules).

No cursing on campus;
No disrespect to teachers;
No drugs;
No weapons;
Be where you are supposed to be, when you are supposed to be;

Parents are required to commit to classroom involvement as a prerequisite for student enrollment.

Kids are kids, and these rules get broken (both of my girls can curse like sailors, but it isn't something we encourage).

It has been my experience that most of the teachers are slow to discipline and really care about the students (there are bad teachers in our school system as in any other, but our school board holds regular public meetings, regular parent-teacher conferences, and the bad teachers don't last long.

EDIT:...(sigh)...it's always spelling... :dunce:

[Trillo]

138. Private schools commonly assign punishments

for rulesets that haven't been agreed to in advance -- in this particular case we do not know the specifics -- but it is quite human to have misunderstandings and misinterpretations of rule sets between humans (look at all the civil court cases), that in school are simply punished because it establishes dominance instead of equity or fairness or justice.

The entire U.S. K-12 school system is compulsory, that then creates a fine line of responsibility that must be tread carefully by those in positions of authority. A private school is under less legal obligation to society as a whole versus a public school. I think it's intuitive that those that use Dominance Heirarchy as their modus operandi only will respect those that are willing to nail them with a legal hammer.

[xilet]

114. For the folks that call this abuse

For anyone calling this abuse, all over the country football practice starts up in Aug for high schoolers. 15-16 year olds are out in full gear runnings for hours on end in the heat. I would imagine most fall sports athletes are in the same boat. Most schools will not take students indoors for practice until it gets over 95 degrees, and even then often reluctantly.

[D-Sooner]

140. What, does the school have its own chain gang?

This form of corporeal punishment is new to me.

[sampsonblk]

143. Much ado about nothing