Frustrated Makah rebels shoot, harpoon whale near Neah Bay

[Barrett808]

Source: KOMO TV

Frustrated Makah rebels shoot, harpoon whale near Neah Bay
By KOMO Staff & News Services

NEAH BAY, Wash. -- Five members of the Makah Tribe, frustrated by the delay in their efforts to obtain a permit to hunt whales, shot and harpooned a California gray whale on Saturday, according to the Coast Guard.

The Coast Guard responded to witness reports of a whale shooting off the northwest tip of the Olympic Peninsula on Saturday morning.

The agency deployed three ships to the area and created a 1,000-yard safety zone around the injured whale, which is one mile east of Neah Bay, in the Strait of Juan de Fuca, about a half-mile off shore.

Washington State Patrol troopers also responded.

The Marine Mammal Protection Act outlaws whaling in the United States, but the Makah Tribe of Neah Bay has been fighting to resume whale hunting off the coast of Washington state. They base their request on an 1855 treaty with the federal government, which preserves the tribe's right to hunt whales based on the tribe's history and traditions.

The tribe resumed the hunts in 1999 and successfully killed a whale. Soon after, it stopped in order to go through a federal process to get a permit. But tribal members at Neah Bay on Saturday said some members of the tribe grew fed up with the delays in getting the permit and decided to go hunting.

Gray Whale shot near Neah Bay
NEAH BAY, Wash. - The U.S. Coast Guard reports a California Gray Whale has been shot but not killed near Neah Bay.

The Coast Guard said five members of the Makah Tribe shot and harpooned the whale Saturday morning at about 11 a.m.

Mark Oselle, a spokesperson for the NOAA Fishery Service, said the whale is still alive and headed out to sea. He was unsure of the status of the whale injuries.

He said it's believed the whale was shot several times by a possible 50-caliber machine gun.

(more)

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_090807WAB_whale_shot_KS.b515910c.html

Makah tribal members shoot, injure gray whale
By Lynda V. Mapes and Keith Ervin
Seattle Times staff reporters



Five Makah tribe members shot and injured a gray whale near Neah Bay this morning, the U.S. Coast Guard and eyewitnesses reported.

The whale was in the water and still alive around 2 p.m., said Coast Guard Petty Officer Kelly Parker.

Charlotte King, a Makah tribal member, said several men had been handcuffed and taken to the Coast Guard's Neah Bay station. Parker could not immediately confirm that report.

"They are bringing it in as we speak," King said of the drama surrounding the whale. "It just gives me the shivers. It's kind of good news and sad news. I have mixed feelings. It's exciting that we are exercising our right to go whaling, but I like whales, too. I wonder what they'll do with the meat."

(more)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003875419_webwhale09m.html

Report: Makah rebels shoot, harpoon whale
By BRAD WONG AND MIKE BARBER
P-I REPORTERS

Members of the Makah Tribe, apparently fed up with paperwork delays in a getting a permit to hunt whales, stopped waiting on Saturday.

Five tribal members shot and harpooned a California gray whale Saturday, Coast Guard Petty Officer Kelly Parker said. The injured whale is one mile east of Neah Bay, in the Strait of Juan de Fuca, about a half-mile off shore.

"We have not seen a shot in the whale," said Jeff Griffin, a Coast Guard spokesman. "There is an injured whale, at least."


(more)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/330946_whale08.html

Read more: http://www.komotv.com/news/9665342.html

---

I hope the Feds come down hard on these guys.

[Ian David]

1. How hard can it POSSIBLY be to get a permit to KILL something under Bush? n/t

[MidwestTransplant]

2. Ha good question. Maybe they didn't write KILL in the application.

[ladywnch]

14. they're natives...not white rich men....plus since Abramoff's demise it's hard

to get a bribe placed these days

[krkaufman]

212. Thanks. That made me laugh out loud. n/t

[LeftyMom]

3. Sons of bitches.

When even the fucking Bush Administration won't let you go bugger Ma Nature, that should be your first hint that you're badly in the wrong.

And before any cultural relativists show up, they shot the whale with a gun, from a motorized boat no doubt. So I don't want to hear any of this cultural preservation nonsense, this is about as "traditional" as anglos shooting buffalo from helicopters with automatic weapons would be.

[LostinVA]

76. Agreed

Take out a canoe and use traditional spears/harpoons. I'd still disagree with the whale hunting, but I could maybe rationalize why they do it.

[ImpeechBush]

80. Yeah, only white Americans should be able to use guns

when they hunt. Got it.

[ClintonTyree]

82. With a .50 cal machine gun?

That's not hunting, that's slaughter. Don't start with the race crap, please.

[ImpeechBush]

84. That's a decision for the tribe to make, not you

you certainly are entitled to your opinion, but not to make the decision. Either we respect tribal customs and law or we don't. I doubt that the whale cares a lot about whether it is killed with a machine gun or a pointy stick. In fact, if anything the former would no doubt have been less painful and prolonged -- if the feds hadn't stepped in an stopped them, forcing unnecessary suffering.

[Clovis Sangrail]

100. no, it *is a decision for us to make

There is *nothing cultural about this.
They want to kill whales to make money.
Fuck the Macah.

If they get to kill whales with 50 cals I get to own slaves.
That's "cultural" too.

[SayWhatYo]

155. While I agree with your overall sentiment...

I don't know if I agree that killing a whale is equal to owning slaves... Or even comparable for that matter.

[CriesInTheStreets]

185. Okay...

...that was just a wierd post period.

It was a .50 rifle (not a belt fed machine gun).

It seems like the most humane thing to me. I mean if you are going to kill it...at least do it quickly.

If you have a problem with their killing the whale then fine, I am with you.
But going irrational dramaqueen because they wanted to shoot it to death (quicker & less pain) instead of stabbing it to death (slower & more pain) does not really make much sense to me.

I do not quite get the introduction of wealth or race.

[Clovis Sangrail]

199. humane?

Have you ever *seen a whale hunt?

I saw a video of it in a bay once. I'll try and track it down and post it.

They trapped the whale in the bay and began shooting it.
It took a couple hours for the whale to die, by which time they had fired like 150 shots into it with 50 caliber RIFLES.
The ocean water in the bay was literally blood red by the time they were done.

Humane?
gimme a break


and not getting the introduction of wealth or race only shows you have limited imagination.
The point of that was, if THEY get to break the law and engage in atrocities, because it's a "cultural right" then why shouldn't I get a pass on a "cultural right"... or anybody else for that matter.

It would be another matter ENTIRELY if this were 1825 and that's how they subsisted.
IT'S NOT 1825.
The Makah have TV's, car, running water, and GROCERY STORES.

[TaraWatchUSA]

118. Well said!

Native American Peoples should have full self determination. Libs are pro Indian as long as the casino isn't in their back yard (classic nimby). Everybody cries over the whale, and then they drive to work on macadam highways polluting earth, land sea and sky that is no doubt under one treaty or another broken by Whites. Why don't we all have to get permission to drive and pollute, cars cause way more animal suffering then the Makah whale hunt. White people don't need permission! SIGH!

[ExPatLeftist]

171. Well put...

And much more concisely than I can seem to manage.

Thanks!

[Clovis Sangrail]

203. how is this nimby?

we aren't allow to hunt whales either.

Should company X be allowed to dump toxic chemicals into the ocean?
How about if company X is owned by a native american?

Now that the native american is doing it, rather than a white man, does that change the effect of what he's doing?
No, it doesn't.

Drive around the logging roads on the Makah res and see just how well they've "respected" their forest.

Native americans are just as prone as anybody else to raping the environment.
They should be subject to the same regulations in regards to it.

[yewberry]

127. The tribe didn't make the decision.

The men who did this didn't "respect tribal customs and law." They had no authorization from the Makah authorities, and the Makah are pissed. The men were outside of Neah Bay, in protected waters.

[SayWhatYo]

152. ....

:eyes:

[superconnected]

214. Actually the tribe needs to respect the state laws so it's a decision for the state to make.

[benEzra]

147. They didn't use a machinegun (the reporter screwed up). n/t

[SayWhatYo]

153. I was wondering about that...

I mean, can civilians even get 50 cal. machine guns? I mean, I am fairly sure it's not legal, right?

[benEzra]

158. It is possible to jump through enough hoops to own one in many states...

I was wondering about that...I mean, can civilians even get 50 cal. machine guns? I mean, I am fairly sure it's not legal, right?

It is possible to jump through enough hoops to legally own one in many states. Under Federal law (National Firearms Act of 1934), you have to obtain Federal authorization (BATFE Form 4), which involves an extensive background check, your local chief law enforcement officer must sign off on your application, BATFE gets to inspect your paperwork once a year, etc. Needless to say, you have to have a squeaky clean record. The same rules apply to sound-suppressed firearms, guns over .50 caliber (shotguns and over-.50 hunting rifles excepted), short-barreled rifles and shotguns, disguised firearms, grenades, etc.

The Federal application forms are available here:

http://www.titleii.com/

The real obstacle to legally owning a machinegun (assuming you live in a state that allows it, and have a squeaky clean record) is the price; the Federal machinegun registry was closed in 1986 by the McClure-Volkmer Act, so the only civilian-transferable machineguns in existence are those that were registered in or before 1986. Since they are very collectible, prices are astronomical; $15,000 for an AK-47, $15,000 to $75,000 for an M16 (depending on rarity), and prices for some belt-fed machineguns are in the six-figure range. All approved civilian transfers must go through a specially licensed NFA Title 2/Class III dealer.

I don't know the going rate for a functional .50 caliber M2 machinegun; I did a quick Google and found that there was allegedly one for sale at the 2007 Knob Creek (TN) machine gun shoot for $45,000, but I don't know if that is the case or what shape it was in.

[SayWhatYo]

192. wow, I didn't know that...

Thanks for the info. I really question the sanity of someone who would pay 45k for a gun though... I mean, you could buy 45,000 things at the dollar store instead. :P Even more funny about the ak47 since I once heard that somone could pick one up in many third world countrie for less than $100 USD.

[benEzra]

194. I think $100 is about the going rate internationally for an AK-47...

someone could probably smuggle one in from Central America disguised as a routine cocaine shipment for under a thousand, I'd expect (that'd leave room for 900% profit), but there'd be no way to legally possess or sell it, unlike a pre-'86. The price is so high because there are very, very few pre-'86 civilian transferable AK-47's--the registry was closed well before the Cold War ended, after all--and because of the fixed supply, there is a constant bidding war among collectors who want one.

A non-automatic civilian AK-47 variant goes for about $400 (I own one, paid $379 in 2003), even though they cost about the same to manufacture as the real thing; the difference between $400 and $15,000 is the demand vs. supply thing. It only applies to the civilian market, though; if a police department or the military wanted a real AK-47, they could get one for the same price as a non-automatic civilian model, as the 1986 ban does not apply to them.

[slackmaster]

191. Article in this morning's fishwrap says it was a .460-caliber rifle

Undoubtedly a bolt-action. In addition to "at least five steel whaling harpoons".

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070910-1001-wst-whaleshot.html

[CreekDog]

109. white americans aren't allowed to hunt whales

got it?!

[SayWhatYo]

They are allowed hunt iraqi children though.

Just kidding of course. I know that most of our guys in Iraq are not crazy children killers, and they typically try to avoid civilian deaths. I just wanted to say something snarky to get it out of my system.

[CreekDog]

160. and our military is in large part non-white

your comment is problematic and worse yet because it's in response to my comment regarding race, innacurately adds a racial dimension to civilian deaths in Iraq --namely that white soldiers are "allowed" to kill Iraqi children.

[OwnedByFerrets]

108. Thank for expressing MY sentiments also........

killing ANY whale is unexceptable. PERIOD.

[TaraWatchUSA]

117. They chose to use modern tech for reasons!

I've dialogued with a Makah whaler in the past and I understand that these very traditional people who happen to live in the year 2007 have researched the most humane way to kill a whale. As an archaeologist I can assure you that the Makah are in fact part of an ancient whaling culture. As a whale watch naturalist I can say that the death of one grey whale is a sorrow, but the population is high enough to withstand one traditional hunt. As a person of partly Native extraction I can tell you that I use old-fashioned materials like bone, fur and pottery along with zippers, store brought cloth and patterns to make my pow wow. As a human being I can use modern things in a traditional context. Look at it this way, if you have a Christmas tree, do you go to Germany to cut it down and use hand dipped bees wax candles?
I think that the death of this whale, who was honored in a traditional whaling culture's private religious way, is a thing of terrible beauty. We humans are part of the food chain and the Makah, after perhaps thousands of years of whaling, never caused an extinction, factory whalers are the evil culprits in whale extinction.

[LeftyMom]

126. Whales are too big to kill quickly with guns designed for humans

Even with explosive harpoons they die slowly and likely in great pain.

Most baleen whales (the only real exception are Minkes, doing relatively well because they fill in the niches of rare Blue whales) are so far off of their historical highs that even the rebounded numbers are very low, and their low reproduction rates mean that the loss of even one is a real blow to the species. There's no reason good enough to kill a whale.

Furthermore, they haven't done a traditional hunt and they aren't asking to do a traditional hunt. Even the last legal hunt involved motor boats and automatic weapons. There are no plans to hunt solely from canoes or with traditional arms, and there are plans to sell the meat (a violation of international law) so it's not a traditional subsistence hunt planned.

[CriesInTheStreets]

186. That is silly...

The notion that a gray whale is too large to kill with a .50 round.

Every skull is made of bone...inside of that skull is the brain...introduce a .50 round and the velocity alone is enough to create a vacuum that destroys the brain...much less the actual impact.

Come on people. We need to object based on facts and reason.

[LeftyMom]

201. Then why did the poor thing take so long to die?

I'm not saying you can't kill one with small arms- hell you could bleed one to death with a .22 if you were evil enough to keep at it. I'm saying there's no way to do so that isn't torturously slow.

[Evergreen Emerald]

133. It floundered for 8 hours with bullet holes in it from the attack

That has nothing to do with tradition. It is violence.

[CriesInTheStreets]

184. My understanding was...

...that they shot the whale in order for it not to suffer. The traditional method of hunting it apparently causes it to slowly suffer and die.

I mean, they're going to kill it anyway. I'd rather they finish it off quick instead of making it bleed out in pain.

Maybe it is me.

[keopeli]

4. Look - the US agreed in a treaty with the Makah tribe to let them while. Period.

If we want to change the treaty, then have at it, but charges that the Makah whaling is unethical are short sighted. I suggest that critics first sit down with the tribe at a tribal gathering and learn about the realities on the ground. Meanwhile, we should honor the treaty or change it.

Peace

[Barrett808]

7. This attack was not sanctioned by the tribe, and it violates the MMPA

I attended the first of the public meetings on the Makah's request for an MMPA waiver. There was no movement at the time, and little prospect of movement.

These jokers need to be prosecuted under federal law. Period.

[AndyTiedye]

25. I Don't Think Their Traditional Whaling Involves a 50 Caliber Machine Gun

If they want to get out in a small boat and poke it with a sharp stick, I might respect that. Not this.

[krkaufman]

107. Exactly. But at least they shot from a canoe.

(making that up)

[TaraWatchUSA]

121. Hmmmm...

Poking whales with small sticks has never been a Makah Tradition. They are skilled hunters who chose modern technology beacuse it is a quicker and kinder kill.
Honestly, as a partly Native Person I'd like to have a well though out dialogue. Flip, cliche remarks feel...well...racist.
Vicki

[yewberry]

129. This hunt was never authorized by the Makah.

This act has seriously endangered the position of the Makah in their pursuit of exemptions from the MMPA, and they are not at all happy about it.

Many of us trace our families to First Nations, but this was a flat-out criminal act. There was no authorization from the US, no authorization from the Makah authorities, and they were hunting in protected waters. No racism there.

The tribe says they are planning to prosecute.

[Tyler Durden]

135. I apologize in advance for "goring your ox,"

But the excuse of "Tradition" is used everywhere from Klan meetings, to Female Circumcision, to Puppy Mills, to Killing Whales.

For no damned good reason.

As a culture, a species, a race MATURES, it is time to let go GRACEFULLY some of the things of youth. To beg one tradition yet live in modernity in every other way is hypocrisy of the most banal form.

There is no "Terrible Beauty" in the senseless killing of an Intelligent and Sensitive species: only death, and pointless death at that.

[ExPatLeftist]

176. And yet...

Other animals that are also "intelligent" or "sensitive" are killed daily. Your personal love for a particular animal is not enough to ban its killing all over the world. At least it should not be, IMO.

I disagree with your examples.

Klan meetings are not illegal. Nor should they be. I disagree with the Klan about as much as anyone. But I believe in the First Amendment.

Female circumcision is illegal most places if it is involuntary - that is assault and maiming.

Puppy Mills cause suffering to animals. While some would blend that in with this issue, then I would ask, would you support whaling if it were carried out humanely? Regulate it, that is fine. Set strict rules as to the length of suffering or as to specific hunting methods. Arguing against cruelty and against the killing of a specific type of creature are two different things.

But the main thing to me is sovereignty.

Plenty of people have a favorite animal and want to protect it. That is fine. But that is quite different than imposing that subjective criteria on the entire world. That reeks of the imperialism that people hate Bush so much for. And it definitely plays into the quite prevalent global view that the US considers itself superior and wants to rule the world.

While it, on the other hands, pollutes it and kills more animals than any hunt ever could.

[okasha]

197. The gray whale has been fully protected by the IWC

since 1947. Two of its original three populations are extinct, most likely from overhunting. NOBODY has a legal right to kill a gray whale, regardless of sovereignty.

BTW, I'm also a Native person, and I hope these goons serve a sentence under Makah Nation law at least as severe as anything the feds would hand them.

[Clovis Sangrail]

71. realities on the ground???

you mean like "oh look, there's a dead whale" ?

I agree... they should change any treaty that gives them this "right".
But you have to agree, treaties with native americans have been traditionally been worth squat.
We have regularly ignored them when there was even the slightest desire... and that wasn't even for national interest.
(if you think biodiversity in the oceans *isn't a national interest you need to brush up on marine ecology and it's place in the economy )

[ImpeechBush]

83. I agree. I can see where the tribe might have a beef with these

hunters, but why is Bush's federal government getting in the middle of it? If they broke tribal rules, the tribe should work it out with them, maybe discipline them for their infraction. It seems pretty high handed to bring the feds in and violate their sovereignty.

[panzerfaust]

225. PERIOD: NOT

According to a comment on the Seattle Times's Opinion Page:

There's exactly one short sentence about whaling in Article 4 of the treaty and, contrary to common belief, it does not say that the Makah have the ongoing right to whale as they see fit according to their tribal customs. All it says, and I quote, is:

"The right of taking fish and of whaling or sealing at usual and accustomed grounds and stations is further secured to said Indians in common with all citizens of the United States."

[xchrom]

5. the resumption of whaling is just wrong -- period.

it's 2007 -- there is no justification or rationale for hunting these wonderful creatures.

leave them be.

[Harper_is_Bush]

6. Yeah. Global warming is going to kill them off anyway. n/t

[Teaser]

9. Open negotiations with the Makah tribe.

According to their treaty, they have the right.

Don't like it, talk to them about changing the treaty.

Now as for this particular instance, they still need to wait for their permit. So they go to jail, or get fined, or whatever.

And as for whether whales are wonderful creatures, I don't believe they are any more or less
wonderful than cows. Problem is, there are lots of cause. Aren't so many whales.

[Barrett808]

11. The tribe *does not* have the right to kill whales, according to the 9th Circuit Court

The tribe must acquire a waiver to the Marine Mammal Protection Act before they can legally slaughter another whale. And that's not going to happen.

[ohio2007]

12. 9th circuit also says Mexican trucks can flood US markets and put US teamsters

on the unemployment lines.

nice

[xchrom]

17. look! look! -- over there it's a stupid flying useless comment!

[truedelphi]

60. But those teamsters have only themselves to blame - I mean

Why didn't they get a decent education like a Master's degree or something so they weren't low life truckers??

What? The people with master's degrees have lost their jobs to outsourcing?? The chemists, and engineers, computer programmers, the medical researchers - their jobs are now in Singapore and New Delhi??

NEWS FLASH - In order to feed their families, tens of thousands of Americans flooded the beaches of Washington State armed with high caliber rifles to take out whales so their families could be fed.

[xchrom]

16. i'm fine with reopening the treaty --

whatever it takes to stop the stupidity of whaling.

it's 2007 -- even hicks in the farthest corners have figured out there are certain things that shouldn't be done because of the cruelty involved.

doesn't mean it always stops them -- people are stupid -- kinda like your comment comparing whales to cows.

[Teaser]

87. Do whales feel more pain than cows?

They don't seem any more "alive" than cows.

And I see little reason to believe they are significantly more intelligent than cows.

The whole "whales have language" argument is bollocks, easily disconfirmed by information theoretic analysis of whalesong.

Maybe they're as smart as songbirds, but that's about as much as the evidence supports.

And again, the reason they are valuable is because they are rare. That is why they should be protected. If there were enough whales to support whaling, then go for it.

But there aren't.

[xchrom]

104. cows are basically engineered animals made for our consumption

and sustenance -- and your pain comment just shows your ignorance.

while lining up to be slaughtered is certainly no walk in the park -- the end generally comes swiftly -- it's designed to be that way.

hunting is torture for the animal -- in this case from start to finish.

this is an animal fully able to grasp he or she is meat.

your inability to extend some notion of intelligence to a creature that has proven over and over that it is aware is simply a cap on the brutishness you want to force on the issue.

the makah -- making a perversion of tradition -- are doing the same thing.
they broke the law and they'll be -- hopefully punished for their savage and aberrant behavior in this case.

[Maestro]

50. Totally agree

Cultural or not!

[Barrett808]

8. Update: "Right now, it appears to be an illegal hunt" - NMFS

Updated story:

The Coast Guard detained the five tribal members and questioned them, said Mark Oswell, a National Marine Fisheries Service spokesman. They later were released to the tribe.

He did not know if they had been arrested and said the information he has received is preliminary. "Right now, it appears to be an illegal hunt," he said.

While federal authorities sorted through the information, tribal sources who spoke on condition of anonymity said no hunt was planned. It was one of several explanations for what happened Saturday.

A source close to the incident said a gray whale had become entangled in a buoy in the strait. The five tribal members, including several who participated in the tribes successful and legal 1999 hunt, sought permission from tribal leaders to kill the whale and received it, the source said.

Federal law would not have allowed tribal members to hunt and a hill a whale entangled in a buoy, several federal officials said.

The crew harpooned and shot the whale, but the Coast Guard took the crew into custody before it could finish the job, the source said.

...

Paul Watson, who was in Neah Bay eight years ago to try to stop the whale hunt, said the hunters must be prosecuted.

"It's illegal," said Watson, who heads the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, which has endorsed civil disobedience to save whales. "They should be prosecuted for violating the Marine Mammal Protection Act. ...I think what the Makah are trying to do is test the resolve of the U.S. government to enforce the law."
(more)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/330946_whale08.html

[ohio2007]

13. these whaling tribes ways of life are as extinct as the Buffalo hunters

How many centuries did they hunt whales until "somebody" told them it's against "our laws" so STOP it


/sarc

[TaraWatchUSA]

119. Hey!

The buffalo hunters are not extinct! I believe it was the Coeur D'Alene who have revived the buffalo hunt. Indians are living people not past tense. I'm partly native and there are buffalo and catfish in my freezer.
Vicki

[regnaD kciN]

62. "...released to the tribe..."

...who will no doubt put them on "trial" with an eventual verdict of "bad boys -- don't do it again (wink, wink)." :puke:

[Barrett808]

10. Channel 7: Whale is bleeding, still alive; shooters to be charged with "a slew of federal crimes"

The attack was definitely illegal.

[Screwfly]

26. No doubt

These whale hunters are looking at least one life sentence apiece in the federal pen if the new reports are right, and they really did have a .50 cal Browning machine in their possession.

[Lasher]

53. News agencies get this wrong with regularity

Based on the media's questionable accuracy in the past, and on an eyewitness account downthread, I'm going to guess it was a semi-automatic rifle similar or identical to the .30 caliber Browning BAR II that I have. If it really was a full automatic, at least one of these guys better take a good look at wide open spaces while he still can because he won't get another chance in the next few decades - just like you said.

[regnaD kciN]

63. No, because...

Officials have already said "their fate will be decided by the tribe," not U.S. courts. The tribe will give them an official slap on the wrist and unofficially hail them as heroes. :puke:

[ImpeechBush]

81. Why didn't they let them finish it off instead of making the

whale suffer like this? That doesn't make any sense at all.

[uppityperson]

15. AP article says they aren't sure if they were Makahs.CG via PI says they were

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hSCPXrHT9ZVLLO7QLBLYvK2mTlsA
NEAH BAY, Wash. (AP) — An injured California gray whale was swimming out to sea Saturday after being shot with a machine gun off the western tip of Washington state, officials said.

Coast Guard Petty Officer Kelly Parker said five people believed to be members of the Makah Tribe shot and harpooned the whale Saturday morning. The extent of the whale's injuries were not immediately known.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/330946_whale08.html?source=mypi

Members of the Makah Tribe harpooned and shot a gray whale Saturday without federal permission, but authorities late in the day were trying to sort out conflicting information behind the incident.

Coast Guard Petty Officer Kelly Parker confirmed the hunt by five tribal members. The whale was one mile east of Neah Bay, in the Strait of Juan de Fuca, about a half-mile off shore and wasn't killed.

[ohio2007]

18. follow the blubber

see where the whalemeat goes

[uppityperson]

20. Yeah, except the whale isn't dead. Makah leaders were talking tonight, not to media yet.

Sounds like they are trying to figure out wtf happened. Shame. I hope the whale recovers.

[ohio2007]

33. The fate of the whale is already known

it will die

[Barrett808]

35. Yes, the whale died about 7:15 last night

What a cruel, senseless waste.

[ohio2007]

56. In takes a whale to feed a village

they didn't kill it for sport or to sell whale meat to turists.

[Lasher]

65. They have gone without whale meat since 1999

And none of them has starved.

[ohio2007]

73. they use food stamps in the village ?

they have learned to become dependant on "the great white father" since "the white man" has taken away his land,sea and .....air.



organic farming is also a waste of natural resources
small farming should go the way of the great Buffalo hunters
/sarc

[Lasher]

86. I know you get my point

Times have changed. Do you think the Makah are better or worse off today than their ancestors were 200 years ago? They could always give up electricity, motorboats, and modern medicine if they don't want to be as dependent on "the great white father".

[CreekDog]

110. there's a grocery store in Neah Bay (been there)

The food is better than the weather. :)

But these jokers used a MACHINE GUN to kill a whale.

Machine gun = illegal
whale killing = illegal

I'm not sad if they end up in jail. I'll feel a lot safer when I visit Cape Flattery (one of our most beautiful places) the next time.

[harpboy_ak]

19. They have an absolute treaty right to do this

And the Feds and all the white folks just ought to butt out. They've taken just about everything else away from the Makah and other tribes, often in violation of their treaty rights. They should have let them finish harvesting the whale so the meat would not be wasted.

Judge Boldt ruled long ago that the treaty means what it says, and that it requires the US government and the states of Washington & Oregon to abide by its terms, including Native hunting and fishing rights. The treaty has no requirement that tribes obtain permits to exercise their rights.

I can guarantee you that none of it would be wasted. Like the Inupiaq whalers in Alaska and other Native American marine mammal hunters, these people believe that animals give themselves up to be caught and consumed with respect. That includes the use of every part of the animal that can be used, and giving thanks to the animal's spirit for presenting itself to the hunters.

[uppityperson]

21. No they don't. They have a right to do some whale hunts, but this one was not tribal sanctioned

Have you read what has come out about this incident yet? Sounds like people in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing. This was NOT a sanctioned spiritual hunt, but a bunch of people trying to kill a whale that was caught on a buoy. Tribal sanctioned hunts I do not have as much problem with. It will be interesting to see what the Makah Tribe has to say about it tomorrow.

[ImpeechBush]

27. so isn't that a matter for the tribe to determine?

How does Bush get off prosecuting these tribesmen if there is a treaty in place saying they can do whale hunts? It should be a matter between the tribe and their members.

[Pavulon]

31. No. It is an activity covered under treaty

and involves the coast guard and federal law enforcement. Has nothing to do with bush.

They broke the regulations required by the feds, at minumum, and will pay for that error.

[uppityperson]

44. More info regarding permit

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003876011_whale09m.html
(more@link)
Five Makah Nation members harpooned and shot a gray whale east of Neah Bay on Saturday morning, shocking environmentalists and tribal leaders alike. The whale died less than 12 hours later, sinking while heading out to sea. The move short-circuited years of wrangling in the courts over whaling by the tribe, which hunted its first whale in 70 years in 1999.

(clip)

Makah tribal members said reactions on the reservation were mixed. "It just gives me the shivers," said Charlotte King. "It's kind of good news and sad news. I have mixed feelings. It's exciting that we are exercising our right to go whaling, but I like whales, too."

Before the 9th Circuit placed new restrictions on Makah whaling, the tribe had a permit from the National Marine Fisheries Service allowing it to hunt whales on the outer coast of its homeland on the north Olympic Peninsula at Neah Bay. The limitation was imposed by the federal government to protect so-called resident whales known to frequent the nearshore waters of the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

Saturday's hunt, done within the strait, would have violated the permit. The permit also required the whale to be secured with a harpoon from a traditional canoe before being dispatched with shots from a high-powered rifle. Sallee said he did not see hunters paddling a canoe in the water Saturday.

[ImpeechBush]

79. So they have a "right" to go whaling only if Bush approves

it. Yeah, just as I thought.

[Pavulon]

99. Yeah..

If you try really hard you can draw that conclusion.

[uppityperson]

183. oh bull puckey.

Reading your responses I notice you like to attack other posters based on the conclusions you have jumped to. I give an article about some facts and you jump to "only if bush approves" and end with a snide insult? I'd welcome you to DU except I don't think it is worth it.

[Pavulon]

30. No such thing as absolute

the united states can at any time break that treaty leaving its parties to seek redress in the courts.

A sanctioned hunt is one thing. This looks like a few peckerwoods doing a piss poor job of killing an animal then loosing it.

They will serve federal time for that stunt.

[okasha]

32. Obviously this whale doesn't care to give itself up.

There's nothing spiritual about attacking a trapped creature with a machine gun. ("Harvesting" my Tsalagi ass!)

[CreekDog]

111. they don't have a right to machine guns

under treaty.

sorry.

[Barrett808]

22. Whale killed in rogue tribal hunt ("We look ridiculous, like we can't manage our own people")

Whale killed in rogue tribal hunt
By Lynda V. Mapes and Keith Ervin
Seattle Times staff reporters

Five Makah Nation members harpooned and shot a gray whale east of Neah Bay on Saturday morning, shocking environmentalists and tribal leaders alike.

The move short-circuited years of wrangling in the courts over whaling by the tribe, which hunted its first whale in 70 years in 1999.

The Coast Guard took the five rogue whalers into custody and turned them over to Makah tribal police for further questioning around 6 p.m. Saturday.

The apparently botched hunt, which wasn't authorized by the tribal council or by the federal government, surprised tribal leaders and environmentalists.

"I don't know why they did this. It's terrible," said John McCarty who, as a former member of the tribe's whaling commission, has advocated for the Makah Nation's right to resume whaling under an 1855 treaty.

"I think the anti-whalers will be after us in full force, and we look ridiculous," McCarty said. "Like we can't manage our own people, we can't manage our own whale."

(more)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003876011_whale09m.html

[Barrett808]

23. Five People Jailed for Shooting, Killing Whale (in federal custody)

NEAH BAY, Wash. -- KIRO 7 Eyewitness News is reporting that five members of the Makah tribe are in federal custody, after harpooning and shooting a gray whale Saturday morning.

The whale lived for a few hours in the Strait of Juan de Fuca off Neah Bay. The California gray whale was pronounced dead around 7:15PM Saturday by the United States Coast Guard.

The gray whales are protected under strict federal laws, and the Makah had no legal right to hunt the whale Saturday.

Eight years ago, the Makah tribe was given the legal right to hunt whales. They killed one whale then. But they are trying to get those rights back, and investigators say the people who hunted the whale are in big trouble.

The hunters in jail for shooting and wounding the whale are accused of violating the National Marine Mammal Protection Act.

Brian Gorman from the National Marine Fisheries Service says for something like to this happen is not good at all. He wonders if the hunters were tired of waiting for a permit to do this.

Gorman told KIRO 7, “this is not a tribally-sanctioned hunt, clearly. These were some guys who were fed up with federal foot-dragging that they saw and decided to take things in their own hands.”

For centuries, the gray whale has been an important part of the Makah tribe's culture and its heritage. They hunted not just for the meat and dozens of other materials. But for the Makah, the hunt was a deeply spiritual ceremony.

Gorman says today’s hunt, “is very disconcerting for us. That there's an injured whale on Neah Bay that might die and it just doesn't serve anybody's purpose it seems to me."

According to federal investigators, those five Makah tribal members are under arrest and they will be charged with a slew of federal crimes. One fine for injuring a gray whale is up to $20,000 and up to five years in federal prison.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/14075142/detail.html

[Barrett808]

24. Brutal, criminal whale killing hits the newswires:

http://news.google.com/news?source=ig&hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1120515602&scoring=d

[Algorem]

28. so,shit can shoot while it floats

[Pavulon]

29. Looks like these morons earned

a nickel of federal time and a 20,000 dollar fine. You can count on the feds enforcing this law.

I cant believe these idiots did such a horrible half assed job.

Cruel and pointless.

[MilesColtrane]

51. If they didn't have a permit for that Browning...

...you can tack on 10 years...maybe an extra 5 if they didn't pay the NFA tax on it.

[regnaD kciN]

64. Federal officials are now saying...

...they won't charge them, but will instead let the tribe determine the penalty. (May I laugh?) :puke:

[Barrett808]

34. "It was like a high speed chase and the whale was gonna die" (w/ sad photo)

Makah Tribe members kill gray whale off Washington Coast
Story Updated: Sep 8, 2007 at 11:26 PM PDT
By KOMO Staff & News Services



NEAH BAY, Wash. -- The U.S. Coast Guard says a gray whale reportedly harpooned and shot by Makah tribal members has died in northwest Washington's Strait of Juan de Fuca.

Petty Officer Shawn Eggert said the whale was headed toward the Pacific Ocean after being wounded Saturday morning. But it disappeared beneath the surface about 7:15 p.m., dragging buoys that had been attached to a harpoon, and did not resurface. A biologist working for the Makah Indian tribe declared it dead, Eggert said.

Five people thought to be members of the Makah tribe shot and harpooned the whale on Saturday morning, Petty Officer Kelly Parker said in Seattle.

They were detained by the Coast Guard, and later turned over to Makah tribal police.

Dave Sallee lives nearby and recorded the hunt from his own boat with a video camera.

"It was like a high speed chase and the whale was gonna die," he said. "We could see several buoys hooked to the whale at that time. And then the shooting started and we got off the water.

"We counted 21 shots from what sounded to be a high-powered rifle."

Tribal officials did not immediately return a call for comment.

Although the Makah Tribe has subsistence fishing rights to kill whales, preliminary information indicated the whale may have been shot illegally, said Mark Oswell, a spokesman for the law enforcement arm of the National Marine Fisheries Service.

"We allow native hunts for cultural purposes. However, this does not appear to be of that nature so far," he said.

(more)

http://www.komotv.com/news/9665342.html

[Pachamama]

36. Gray whale shot, killed in rogue tribal hunt (Makah Tribe of WA)

Source: Seattle Times

Five Makah Nation members harpooned and shot a gray whale east of Neah Bay on Saturday morning, shocking environmentalists and tribal leaders alike. The whale died less than 12 hours later, sinking while heading out to sea.

The hunt was starkly different from a federally sanctioned hunt in 1999 during which a whale was harpooned and then quickly killed with a large-caliber rifle. That was the tribe's first whale hunt in 70 years.

After the hunt, environmental groups won a 2002 ruling in the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that the Makah Nation must obtain a waiver under the Marine Mammal Protection Act before it could hunt whales again. The tribe has worked since then to obtain the waiver, and McCarty said the process was close to completion.

Dave Sallee, a non-Indian from Forks, Clallam County, said he and a friend were fishing from a boat near Seal Rock east of Neah Bay when they saw two boats surround a gray whale and pursue it. The whale was pulling floats that appeared to be attached to it by harpoon lines. Sallee said he heard 21 gunshots during the hunt, which he said he first observed around 9:30 a.m.

Saturday's hunt, done within the strait, would have violated the permit.

The permit also required the whale to be secured with a harpoon from a traditional canoe before being dispatched with shots from a high-powered rifle. Sallee said he did not see hunters paddling a canoe in the water Saturday.

Read more: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003876011_whale09m.html

---

Pachamama's comments: This story makes me so angry and yet brings with the sadness some possible hope....

I am very familiar with the Makah tribe of Washington....In 1999 when I was living in Seattle and also had a home up near the tribal lands of the Makah, I watched in horror when they won a permit to be able to resume their ancient tribal practice of hunting whales.

I have always been a supporter of 1st Nation rights, but there was nothing about this that carried with it the ancient traditions. Their ancestors would hunt the whale (for food and sustinence) in canoes. The younger generation that was trying to resurrect the tradition of whale hunting wanted to do so with the aid of a motor boat that used a high powered rifle after the whale had been harpooned from a canoe. I and many others in Washington state were upset by this and I even went out to protest and say a prayer for the whale they killed that day in May....I also got pregnant that day and have always prayed that the wisdom and spirit of that whale was in my child. I have always believed that to this day and I even told her the story of that whale hunt.

I always believed and still believe that when the Makah started this hunt with the use of guns and motor boats that they were dishonoring their ancestors and that someday, someday they would be stopped. This incident may be it. Because of court rulings, this act may become the end of their "rights" to hunt.

This poor whale died a horrible death today as it struggled to get back out to sea, killed by the humans it thought it was safe around. But this whales death may save others. I pray it is so.

[IndyOp]

37. Mitakuye Oyasin. (For All My Relations, I Pray).

[xchrom]

38. recommend

[YankeyMCC]

This case does appear to this

white man from New England as antithetical to what I understand of 1st Nation traditions culture but I would rather leave it to the Makah people and perhaps other 1st nation peers to pass judgment on that.

I don't think we can condemn 1st nation whale hunts just because they use modern techniques, the whole idea to to live as the world provides and today we have technologies to help them hunt. It's the purpose of the hunt (is it truly to feed and provide real value to the people through use of as much as possible of all the parts or the giving back to the land and water what they don't use), the way the technology is used (it should only be used if it can be used in a productive and not ultimately destructive manner to the ecology), and how the animals are treated as individuals (not just killing them in 'sport' or wasting them) and as a group (hunting them only with sustainable practices.

If all those ideals can be met using a motor boat and some modern weaponry (although I will admit as I said in this case it seems they used more than necessary force and in fact in efficient and ineffective force thus being wasteful) then that alone isn't the problem.

Again, I say it sounds to me like this particular hunt was outside the bounds, perhaps out of some misjudgment brought on by frustration, ment yet again I think it I would like to hear what the judgment of the 1st nation people have to say about it first. Then I think others in the community that come from different traditions that allow for and provide access to more options for sources of food and whatever else the 1st nation people take from their whale hunts.

[LeFleur1]

40. Honoring Ancient Traditions

This type of hunt isn't honoring anything. I say that because they are using every modern invention they can get their hands on to kill the whales while the whale is using it's ancient weapons. It's a one sided battle.

This was a travesty and the ancient people in happy hunting grounds must be wiping their tears.

[Pachamama]

41. I remember at the time that there were some Makah elders who joined us in the protest...

This was in 1999 and they said that their younger generation, depressed from unemployment and health problems (obesity, diabetes etc.) was going about it all wrong....they said at the time it was going to bring dishonor.

The current tribal chief is one of the original hunting team that killed the whale in 1999. He is paying for his participation in 1999. Whoever these 5 tribe members were who went out yesterday and killed this whale, clearly are not under his control, but he has to take responsibility as tribal chief.

Yesterday's "Kill" didn't even involve a canoe as it did in 1999. It was the utmost violation of the hunting rules and the court orders on the conditions in which they could do the hunt assuming it was okayed (they have to have a waiver from the Marine Mammal Protection Act). Apparentely they had been close to agreeing on the conditions and whoever these 5 Makah members were, they violated everything.

I pray that this tribe is never allowed to slaughter another grey whale again.

[janetle]

77. They shot it 21 times and it suffered.....

In 1999, they harpooned first and then and shot it once to kill it quickly and keep it from suffering.

[Pachamama]

39. Gray whale shot, killed in rogue tribal hunt (Makah Tribe of WA)

This thread has been combined with another thread.

Click here to read this message in its new location.

[uppityperson]

42. updated story from localish paper

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070909/NEWS/709090306
Gray whale killed in Strait; five Makah detained in act unsanctioned by tribal authorities


A California gray whale harpooned and shot Saturday morning died hours later in the Strait of Juan de Fuca, the Coast Guard reported. Five Makah tribal members were detained after the whale, which was about 30 feet long, was wounded.

Saturday's killing - the first by a Makah tribal member since 1999 - was conducted without permission from the Makah tribal government, tribal officials said. Possibilities being investigated are whether it was illegally hunted, or the whale was harpooned and shot in a humane attempt to kill it after it had become entangled in a fishing net and couldn't be cut loose. The whale died as it was swimming toward the Pacific Ocean under the watch of the Coast Guard, said spokesman Petty Officer Shawn Eggert.

(clip)

The Makah tribe made no official comment on Saturday. Officials said harming the whale was done without permission or consultation with the tribe's whaling commission or its tribal council. The tribe is seeking a federal waver of the Marine Mammal Protection Act. Four months ago, the International Whaling Commission renewed its ancestral right to hunt and kill 20 whales over five years. The Makah are the only tribe in the country with a treaty specifying a right to hunt whales.

(clip)

More@link

[Barrett808]

43. Can I get three recs for the health of the oceans? n/t

[flvegan]

45. Done. Thanks for posting this.

[LeftyMom]

46. #5 and off to the greatest you go

[Barrett808]

47. Thanks Mom and flvegan! n/t

[Kajsa]

68. Another K&R.

Thanks for posting this.
;-)

:kick:

[BlooInBloo]

48. Suckers. They thought that a treaty with the US *meant something*.

[cgrindley]

151. You said it, Bloo

You realize that we agree more often than not, don't you?

[Forrest Greene]

49. Those Whales Need

...defenders, in boats, armed.

[go west young man]

52. They have some defenders here that could use financial support

from any DU'ers that want to donate. http://www.seashepherd.org/

Captain Paul Watson and his crews enforce the U.N. moratorium on whale hunting by using any means to stop the hunting of these beautiful,complex creatures. Someone above said this whales death serves no purpose. This whale is dead now but maybe today some of us can make a difference for whales in the future by donating to Sea Shepherd.

[flvegan]

54. Heh heh...the Farley Mowat v tiny little boat

A glancing blow, just to disable the engine.

[colorado_ufo]

55. People have a right to their cultures, however, they must live with other peoples

and the law. ALL cultures must somehow come to terms with the fact that while tradition is fine, nature demands that we grow or die. All cultures stuck in traditions that worked hundreds of years ago will face stagnation and extinction unless they grow as people and adapt. I just read in our local paper how Israel is facing an economic disaster because all their land is supposed to lie fallow every seventh year, per religious requirement. So they are trying to circumvent this with novel ways, like trying to rent land in other countries to farm.

All traditions did not, at one time, exist. They exist today because someone, at one time, tried something new and everyone agreed that it was worth perpetuating. Perhaps it is time that we all tried a tradition of kindness, love, and respect for nature and each other.

Without 50mm machine guns.

[BrklynLiberal]

57. I started to cry when I heard this on the news last night....

I am giving up hope for the human race. We are destroying this planet and have no care or respect for any of the creatures on it. :cry:

[nam78_two]

58. I hope that poor whale survives that.nt

[Barrett808]

59. The whale died at about 7:15 last night, after eight hours of suffering. n/t

[nam78_two]

69. Very sad :-/ .nt

[regnaD kciN]

61. "Rebels," my ass...

"Jerk-offs" would be a better term. :grr:

[losthills]

66. They deserve prison.

There is no justification for their actions.

[Kajsa]

67. Some "traditions" need reexamining.

Genital mutilation of young girls is "traditional"
in some African cultures.

"Honor" killing is another "tradition" that is alive and well.

That doesn't make it right.

There is no need to kill whales,anymore.

This was senseless and cruel.

[orleans]

70. my god! how traditional is using a fucking MACHINE GUN

fuck these traditions.

didn't christians burn people as witches?

we don't do that anymore just to keep a hold on some fucked up traditions

whoever did this belongs in prison

[CreekDog]

112. some folks here wouldn't be respecting tradition

if it involved the Roman Catholic Church.

We should not respect tradition but respect good traditions that don't harm others.

[orleans]

114. agree. n/t

[everydayis911]

72. Well If

These buffoons want to do it like their ancestors then may I suggest they carve out their canoe and sharpen stones for their spears. They are pathetic. With modern day equipment and especially a machine gun they should not be able to hunt unless they do it like their ancestors. That is their gripe after all.

[ooglymoogly]

74. They , the government need to buy or rewrite the treaty

giving the tribe a large sum of money for their release or rewrite of the treaty. It's a treaty for chrise sake. Buy the treaty back or pay the tribe for a rewrite which should be worth a lot of money and our government now spending bullions a week killing people should be able to find enough money to pay them off for chump change the way this government is wasting money.

[AZBlue]

75. I hope they get the maximum and are never allowed to go whaling again.

[FREEWILL56]

78. My take on this scenario is

that there is much wrong to go around. The government can still honor the treaty by letting them kill whales, but the government can also limit the number of kills and how it is done. I guess nobody in the federal government is smart enough to come up with this answer so they sat on it for 8 years. Hell, why not rule on it in another 80 years? Though the 5 that did that to the whale are wrong in what they did, it is not unexpected due to the government's irresponcibility in answering in reasonable due course to the request for a permit. The 5 should be charged, but with reduced or eliminated sentences upon conviction and an answer to the request for a permit finally given to the tribe with an apology for not addressing the request in a timely fashion.

edit to add:

Good thing bush isn't interested in whale oil or the permit request would've been decided upon the day before application and all of the whales would be dead except for one we'll call obl and bush will keep looking for him in all the wrong places.

[G Gordon Libby]

85. Be advised...

...they want to hunt whales to sell the meat and blubber in Japan for big $$$. Any of this "ceremonial" stuff is a big crock o'you know what.

[FREEWILL56]

89. The government can regulate that too.

Way back when their traditions started it didn't include trading with the Japanese because they really didn't know about the place even existing let alone trading with them. That means trading with Japan exceeds their traditions and should come under federal laws. If I can figure all of this out in a reasonable time frame, then why can't this administration?

[Lasher]

90. I'm not very well versed on this but I think it is illegal for them to sell whale meat

Even if they get a legal permit to kill one.

[FREEWILL56]

93. Then that settles it.

It would come under federal law and that would not interfere with their traditions (which does not include the ability to trade with countries or use modern boats and weapons they didn't even know existed when their traditions were formed) and it doesn't interfere with the treaty either as trade with another country certainly was not part of that treaty.

[LeftyMom]

96. Doing so is a violation of international law

So no, the gov't really can't regulate it. And since they're not doing a traditional hunt (subsistence hunts by indigenous peoples are exempt from the whaling bans) and intend to violate the international commercial whaling bans (under the IWC and CITES treaties) they have no incentive to give them a permit under the mmpa.

This action likely cost the tribe any chance they had of getting legal permission, since they have now shown that they can't be trusted with the responsibility and that the cultural preservation argument is crap by engaging in the last two hunts with a heavy emphasis on modern technology (the previous legal hunt also was done modern firearms and motor boats, but the first blow was struck by a harpoon from a canoe to keep it all legal and maintain the legal fiction of tradition. This time they didn't bother with the canoe.)

[Celebration]

88. That's so sad

That may have been the only whale I ever saw, which was recently, while staying at a place right on Neah Bay. The whale kept regular hours, flipping its tail while looking for food. It must have been really easy to kill--sort of a sitting duck.

[Lasher]

91. You think this is bad? Check this out:

August 2007

Medieval royalty coveted the Arctic whale's (narwhals') long ivory tusk. So do modern hunters, and that's taking a toll on the population.

At first the narwhals parade past in pods of eight or ten, then in grand processions of hundreds. As news of their return spreads over the local field radio, Inuit hunters, many of them good friends I've known for years, begin arriving on snowmobiles carrying camping gear and high-powered rifles. Taking up positions along the ice edge, they watch and wait for narwhals to surface near enough to shoot with a rifle and retrieve with a grappling hook thrown by hand.

<snip>

The gunfire begins in the afternoon and goes on all through the twilit night. Over the span of 12 hours 109 rifle shots ring out, but something is wrong: In the morning only nine narwhals lie dead on the ice. Surely more were hit, I think, and begin asking each hunter how he fared.

"I hit two, but they didn't die."

"I sank seven and landed none."

<snip>

All agree that one of the most pressing needs is training young and inexperienced hunters to reduce the number of whales struck and lost. Killing a narwhal is a badge of honor for a young hunter, but many Inuit don't grow up learning hunting skills. "With all the changes in Inuit society," one official commented, "communication between the young and old is breaking down."

This fact hit home as I watched a 13-year-old boy armed with a .30-06 rifle shooting narwhals all day, wounding many but landing none. Elders stood nearby but said nothing.

http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0708/feature3/

Maybe they should be allowed to use RPGs.

[Barrett808]

92. "They are just common criminals, thugs out for a thrill with their guns...no different than Vick"

Five Makah Whalers Arrested for Torturing and Killing a Whale
Sea Shepherd News
News Releases
09/09/2007

In blatant violation of international and U.S. law, five members of the Makah tribe illegally shot and killed a resident Gray whale on Saturday, September 9, 2007. The killing took place in the coastal waters off Washington State, near the Makah village of Neah Bay.

According to eye witness accounts, a Gray whale was harpooned at 9:30 am, a quarter mile off Seal and Sail rocks, two miles east of Neah Bay. The whale was apparently shot 22 times and fled towards the sea. The U.S. Coast Guard placed a 1,000 yard safety perimeter around the whale and ordered Makah fishing boats not to enter the zone. Makah fishermen were demanding the whale, despite the fact that five Makah tribal members have now been arrested. The whale fled westward, trailing a harpoon line attached to yellow floats and a stream of blood from multiple gunshot wounds. It died hours later, some 10 miles west of Neah Bay.

Dave Sallee, a non-Indian fisherman of Forks, Clallam County, said he saw two boats surrounding a Gray whale and pursuing it as it pulled buoys through the water that appeared to be attached to the whale by harpoon lines. Sallee said he heard a total of 21 shots.

Ben Johnson, the tribal chairman, was reached while consulting with the tribe's attorneys. He confirmed that the tribe has been seeking an exemption from the federal Marine Mammal Protection Act so that it could take up to five Gray whales per year. However, Johnson confirmed that the tribe has not yet secured that exemption.

In 1999, the tribe received a permit to whale from the National Marine Fisheries Service, allowing it to hunt on the outer coast of its homeland on the north Olympic Peninsula at Neah Bay. That permit is now tied up in court challenges. But even if it were in force today, if the whale was taken within the Strait of Juan de Fuca, as appears to be the case, the take would be in direct violation of the permit.

The permit also would require the whale to be secured with a harpoon from a traditional canoe before being dispatched with shots from a high-powered rifle. Sallee said he saw no canoe in the water. The canoe, he said, was tied up to one of the motorized boats at the time. This shooting is a violation of Makah tribal law, U.S. federal law, and international law.

The following violations have occurred:

1. The Makah whalers have not been granted a permit from the Federal Government.
2. The Makah whalers would not be permitted to take resident whales, even if granted a permit.
3. The Makah whalers have acted in contempt of the rulings of the 9th Circuit District Court.
4. The Makah whalers must harpoon the whale from a traditional canoe if granted a permit. They did not.
5. The Makah whalers are not permitted to use small calibre firearms to shoot the whale.
6. The Makah whalers were not sanctioned by the Makah tribe.
7. The Makah whalers have not been sanctioned by the International Whaling Commission

Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (SSCS) will demand that the federal government prosecute these criminal whalers to the full extent of the law. If the federal government fails to prosecute, then SSCS will initiate or join a lawsuit against the government for failure to uphold federal law.

"The men who shot this whale are not traditional whalers," said Captain Paul Watson, founder and president of SSCS. "They are just common criminals, thugs out for a thrill with their guns, and their actions are no different than the cruelty that NFL football star Michael Vick recently pled guilty to. If the government prosecutes Vick for fighting dogs and fails to prosecute these criminals for torturing a whale, then the government will be displaying racist discrimination saying that animal cruelty is justified if the perpetrators are Native American and not black. The bottom line is, these five men knowingly and blatantly pumped 22 shots into a defenceless animal and watched as it fled, bleeding and dragging floats behind it. This whale suffered for hours before finally dying, and there can be no justification for their cruelty and contemptuous indifference to the law."

The killing of this whale by the Makah ranks as one of the most prolonged deaths of any whale killed in modern times. The Japanese have been observed taking up to 40 minutes to kill a whale. The Norwegians were recently documented killing a whale over a period of 15 minutes. The Makah killing took hours and inflicted intense suffering and stress upon the unsuspecting animal.

"There is nothing traditional or respectful about the way this whale was killed," said Captain Watson. "This was a vicious assault on a protected animal in an area off limits to killing whales in blatant violation of the Marine Mammal Protection Act by thugs who were not endorsed by their own tribal council. These five men acted illegally and sadistically, and they must be prosecuted for their crime."

http://seashepherd.org/news/media_070909_1.html

[ImpeechBush]

95. The death of the whale was prolonged by the Coast Guard

not the hunters. Just keep that in mind.

[Pavulon]

102. The death of the wale was CAUSED

by a couple of peckerwoods. Their stunt will hopefully cost them several years of their lives behind bars. Shooting it 21 times seems like morons screwed up 20 times.

[ImpeechBush]

123. The action of the Coast Guard prolonged the inevitable death

of the whale, maximizing the suffering. That's simply a fact. If they had let the hunters finish the kill the whale would not have taken hours to die.

[LeftyMom]

159. Here's a clue: if you shoot somebody and they die 12 hours later, it was you that killed them.

It is not the responsibility of the paramedics, ER doctors, surgeons, good samaritans, etc who prolong the dying in the hope of saving a life, it's the responsibility of the asshole with a gun for shooting somebody. It's really no different just because the somebody in question is a marine mammal, responsibility for one's actions works the same way.

The Coast Guard stopped a crime. They did the right thing.

[TaraWatchUSA]

120. FYI

Sea Shephard is known to Indigenous People globally as a racist organization called the Sea Fascists!
Vicki

[Nihil]

131. FYI

You and your fellow whale-killers are a disgrace to the human race.

The fact that some people are trying to remedy that disgrace does not
make them "racists" or "fascists".

[LeftyMom]

FYI, indigenous people aren't a homogenous group and most of them don't speak English.

This is a fancy way of saying you made that up and don't know what you're talking about.

Now hush, grown-ups are talking.

[ImpeechBush]

94. With which hunting method would the whale suffer less?

Machine gun vs. antiquated methods

I'm no expert in whale hunting, but I would think that using a machine gun would result in a more rapid death in which the whale suffered pain far less. We agonize over the methodology used by the state in executions of prisoners. Would anyone favor "traditional methods" of execution in capital punishment via throwing spears at the prisoner? Of course not. It would be sadistic cruelty.

So why do some seem to be arguing in favor of that with a whale hunt?

It seems there are two issues here. One is whether whale hunts are allowed. The other is over which methods are preferred to kill the whale. It's hard for me to understand that people would say "yes" to the first and then demand a more prolonged and agonizing death for the whale.

I certainly know which method I would chose if I were the unfortunate whale. Machine gun all the way. Thanks for your concerns humans but I would prefer not to be tortured to death by pinpricks.

[LeftyMom]

97. They die slowly either way

Even with the high-powered, explosive harpoons the Japanese and Norwegian whaling fleets use, they die very slowly, 15, 20 minutes is typical, but longer is not uncommon, and either bleed to death or become entangled and drown. And that's with huge craters being blown in their bodies. A gray whale is big enough that you're not going to hit anything vital with a machine gun absent a very lucky shot, and it's going to bleed to death. I'm sure you can imagine, it takes a long time for an animal that big and with that much blood (marine mammals tend to have high blood volumes for their size to allow enough oxygen for deep dives) a very long time to bleed to death through holes designed to be big enough to kill people.

[ImpeechBush]

101. 20 minutes vs hours and hours

Thank you for the information. It still seems like a big difference to me, but I appreciate your info.

[LeftyMom]

103. That's with an explosive harpoon- think a granade on the end of a spear.

If they die that slowly even with that... That's my point. There's no humane way to kill a whale, and certainly small arms fire isn't even close.

[Pavulon]

105. Machine Gun?

I wonder if they had a a semi auto barrett. Legal


or a browing m2 machine gun (NFA regulated) You see committing a crime with a NFA registered weapon or using an illegal machine gun will cast them 10 federal time. No negocating that sentence.

[Lasher]

113. Even if you have a NFA license for aBrowning M2 you are not permitted to cruise the harbor with it

Gotta keep it right there on your property, all the time. Subject to surprise inspections, night and day.

[Pavulon]

116. Yep

So if these geniuses used it or anything like it the time served for that violation will make the whale killing look pretty light.

They probably had a Barrett but who knows.

[Lasher]

128. Semi-auto is what I was thinking

The geniuses in the news media often seem to have trouble distinguishing between semi-automatic and full automatic. Or maybe they get it wrong on purpose because 'machine gun' sounds more dramatic.

[benEzra]

144. Worse. It was a bolt-action Weatherby hunting rifle.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003876011&zsection_id=2002111777&slug=whale09m&date=20070909

Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said.

Weatherby Mark V, available in calibers up to .460 Weatherby Magnum.

[Lasher]

150. You are exceeding wise to have reached this conclusion

Check this out.

[benEzra]

161. Great minds think alike... :)

Great minds think alike... :)

I honestly hadn't seen your post before I posted mine, but I browsed the Weatherby site and figure the Mk5 would be the logical choice for a whale gun, based on the calibers it is available in.

[Lasher]

178. Wee r smarte

I knew you hadn't seen my post. Kinda cool how we separately came up with posts that were so similar.

[Paladin]

193. A Couple Of Points.....

...after you guys get tired of patting one another on the back:

Point No. 1: As is the usual case, the exact make, model and caliber of the firearm utilized has virtually nothing to do with the significance or newsworthiness of this sad incident.

Point No. 2: It is quite common for initial news reports to contain erroneous or conflicting details about all manner of things, guns included. These matters are often corrected in subsequent reports, when time and circumstances permit. If the media aren't describing the subject firearm to your exacting specifications....see Point No.1, above.

[Lasher]

200. Well pardon the hell out of me for trying help set the record straight.

There is a big difference between a bolt action sporting rifle and a crew-served, tripod-mounted machine gun. There are those who visit here who don't mind seeing news article discrepancies like this pointed out. There are others who prefer to invent reasons to condescend.

[benEzra]

204. "If the media aren't describing the subject firearm to your exacting specifications...."

(Paladin)
If the media aren't describing the subject firearm to your exacting specifications....

Hmmm.

What the hunters used:



What the reporter said they used:




Yeah, I can see how making a distinction between those two weapons is an "exacting specification." Sort of like the silly distinctions between gray whales and polar bears, or native hunters and biker gangs. :eyes:

I hope you're not a journalist by profession...

[Lasher]

206. No no, you don't understand.

The make, model and caliber of the firearm utilized has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if they had used one of these:



Or one of these:



I guess we shameful back-patters have been smacked down but good!

[Paladin]

222. I Stand By And Reaffirm My Previous Comments

Look at this thread, Ben. Well over 200 posts as of this writing, virtually all of them dealing with the interesting, troubling and truly significant aspects of this tragedy: tribal sovereignty, inter-tribal conflicts, treaty provisions, traditional hunting rights, the legal liability of the perpetrators, thorny conflict of law issues, and so forth. And what's your sole contribution? Repeated gripes about the inaccurate description of the gun that was evidently used. Yes, there's a great deal of difference between a machine gun and a Weatherby hunting rifle, but that difference ultimately amounts to exactly dick in terms of what's really important, here.

Let's see if a little history can put this in perspective: I can recall quite clearly that for a significant part of the day of November 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle was referred to as a ".30-06." It was an hysterical situation in Dallas, somebody saw the rifle, it looked vaguely like a U.S. Springfield, so it was christened a .30-06. The error was corrected in a few hours, but guess what? The designation of the rifle as a 6.5mm Carcano didn't bring Jack Kennedy back to life, it didn't retrieve Kennedy's brains from that street by Dealy Plaza, it didn't prevent Lyndon Johnson from becoming president, and it sure as hell never solved the mystery of who really pulled the trigger(s) that day. I was in Austin on August 1, 1966 when Charles Whitman opened up on the University of Texas campus. Initial reports indicated that he had a .30-06 in his arsenal; this was subsequently corrected. Again, it was a frantic time in Austin, initial reports were garbled, and some assumption was made that a common caliber like the '06 must be part of the large arsenal that Whitman toted to the top of that tower and used with such deadly effect. But the fact that Whitman used a 6mm Remington rather than a .30-06 didn't help any of the dozens of people he either killed or wounded. Designation of the right caliber didn't remove the blood stains from the South Mall of the campus, and it didn't answer the question of why a nice guy like Whitman turned into a berserk mass murderer.

There is no evidence that the mistaken firearm descriptions in 1963 and 1966 were the result of any nefarious actions by the media. And despite some possible wishful thinking on your part, there is no evidence of any overt media plotting or willful ignorance in the present instance, either. Maybe the description of the gun will be corrected, maybe not. Ultimately, it's just not that important....

(By the way, thanks for the photo of the Weatherby Mark V, but I don't really need it---I've owned one for a couple of decades, now. It doesn't have a plastic stock, a pistol grip or a bayonet lug, but I like it anyway....)

[benEzra]

223. A lot of early posts focused on the "shooting a whale with a machinegun?? WTF?" angle.

Look at this thread, Ben. Well over 200 posts as of this writing, virtually all of them dealing with the interesting, troubling and truly significant aspects of this tragedy: tribal sovereignty, inter-tribal conflicts, treaty provisions, traditional hunting rights, the legal liability of the perpetrators, thorny conflict of law issues, and so forth. And what's your sole contribution? Repeated gripes about the inaccurate description of the gun that was evidently used. Yes, there's a great deal of difference between a machine gun and a Weatherby hunting rifle, but that difference ultimately amounts to exactly dick in terms of what's really important, here.

A lot of early posts focused on the "shooting a whale with a machinegun?? WTF?" angle.

To wit:

With a .50 cal machine gun?

That's not hunting, that's slaughter.

If they get to kill whales with 50 cals I get to own slaves.
That's "cultural" too.

I Don't Think Their Traditional Whaling Involves a 50 Caliber Machine Gun

If they want to get out in a small boat and poke it with a sharp stick, I might respect that. Not this.

But these jokers used a MACHINE GUN to kill a whale.

they don't have a right to machine guns

under treaty.

sorry.

my god! how traditional is using a fucking MACHINE GUN

fuck these traditions.

didn't christians burn people as witches?

we don't do that anymore just to keep a hold on some fucked up traditions

whoever did this belongs in prison

These buffoons want to do it like their ancestors then may I suggest they carve out their canoe and sharpen stones for their spears. They are pathetic. With modern day equipment and especially a machine gun they should not be able to hunt unless they do it like their ancestors. That is their gripe after all.

Machine gun vs. antiquated methods

I'm no expert in whale hunting, but I would think that using a machine gun would result in a more rapid death in which the whale suffered pain far less. We agonize over the methodology used by the state in executions of prisoners. Would anyone favor "traditional methods" of execution in capital punishment via throwing spears at the prisoner? Of course not. It would be sadistic cruelty.

The animal floundered for 8 hours before dying..
...after being attacked with a machine gun. If this is part of their culture--then we should stop it.

Methinks that getting that out of the way helped clear the path for more substantive discussion, and it certainly didn't hurt.

And what's your sole contribution? Repeated gripes about the inaccurate description of the gun that was evidently used.

And your sole contribution is?...

Let's see if a little history can put this in perspective: I can recall quite clearly that for a significant part of the day of November 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle was referred to as a ".30-06." It was an hysterical situation in Dallas, somebody saw the rifle, it looked vaguely like a U.S. Springfield, so it was christened a .30-06. The error was corrected in a few hours, but guess what? The designation of the rifle as a 6.5mm Carcano didn't bring Jack Kennedy back to life, it didn't retrieve Kennedy's brains from that street by Dealy Plaza, it didn't prevent Lyndon Johnson from becoming president, and it sure as hell never solved the mystery of who really pulled the trigger(s) that day. I was in Austin on August 1, 1966 when Charles Whitman opened up on the University of Texas campus. Initial reports indicated that he had a .30-06 in his arsenal; this was subsequently corrected. Again, it was a frantic time in Austin, initial reports were garbled, and some assumption was made that a common caliber like the '06 must be part of the large arsenal that Whitman toted to the top of that tower and used with such deadly effect. But the fact that Whitman used a 6mm Remington rather than a .30-06 didn't help any of the dozens of people he either killed or wounded. Designation of the right caliber didn't remove the blood stains from the South Mall of the campus, and it didn't answer the question of why a nice guy like Whitman turned into a berserk mass murderer.

True. But if the initial reports had claimed he was using a tripod-mounted machinegun, methinks that clarifying that he used a deer rifle would have been apropos and germane to the dicussion.

In threads on gun policy, I think discussions of make/model/caliber are more important than they are in a whaling thread (since proposed bans are based on make/model/caliber). Hence, the question of Barrett .50 bolt rifle vs. Weatherby .460 bolt rifle would possibly have been overkill on this thread, but the question of M2 machinegun vs. bolt rifle was, IMHO, not.

There is no evidence that the mistaken firearm descriptions in 1963 and 1966 were the result of any nefarious actions by the media. And despite some possible wishful thinking on your part, there is no evidence of any overt media plotting or willful ignorance in the present instance, either. Maybe the description of the gun will be corrected, maybe not. Ultimately, it's just not that important....

No one said it was. But correcting it was germane to the thread drift that was occurring in the early stages of this topic.

(By the way, thanks for the photo of the Weatherby Mark V, but I don't really need it---I've owned one for a couple of decades, now. It doesn't have a plastic stock, a pistol grip or a bayonet lug, but I like it anyway....)

Cool! And more power to you; I fully support your right to choose to own it. I personally prefer small-caliber autoloaders, but to each his/her own...

[Pavulon]

196. Animal cruelty, shooting deer with a bb gun

pretty depressing.

[CreekDog]

115. You think they should be able to own machine guns and use them?

And you want Bush impeached because he broke the law.

Hmmm.

[ImpeechBush]

124. I said nothing of the sort. You made that up out of thin air.

I'm just pointing out that if you are going to allow whale hunts then demanding they be done by a bunch of guys with sticks is basically going to result in the most prolonged and painful death for the whale.

Some people are saying there should be no whale hunts. That makes sense to me although I am not familiar with the specifics of the treaty negotiation and don't claim to be an expert in the matter.

Others however, seem to be objecting primarily to the choice of weapons -- implying that whale hunts are ok, providing "traditional" methods are used. This position would seem to be equivalent to insisting on maximizing the suffering of the whale.

As someone helpfully pointed out, even using explosives it takes a long time to kill a whale. How long would it take using traditional harpoons and spears or whatever? I would guess a very long time. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Does it make sense to you?

[ecstatic]

157. Hypocrisy and fake outrage

How many animals do we kill in this country every day? It doesn't matter how (quick or fast), or why (food or money)--the end result is the same. Either stop all the killing or save the selective outrage.

[ExPatLeftist]

187. Hear hear!

[Barrett808]

98. Statement by the Makah Tribal Council

The Makah Tribal Council denounces the actions of those who took it upon themselves to hunt a wale without the authority from the Makah Tribal Council or the Makah Whaling Commission. Their action was a blatant violation of our law and they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We are cooperating with the National Marine Fisheries Service in their investigation of this incident and will continue to do so.

The individuals who took part in this act were arrested by Makah enforcement officers and booked in our detention facility. They were released only after meeting the bail requirements set by the court. They will stand trial in our court at a future date.

We had a meeting of the general council of the Makah Tribe to discuss this incident and the membership of the tribe supports our action. The tribe has demonstrated extraordinary patience in waiting for the legal process to be completed in order to receive our permit to conduct a whale hunt. We are a law-abiding people and we will not tolerate lawless conduct by any of our members. We hope the public does not permit the actions of five irresponsible persons to be used to harm the image of the entire Makah tribe.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003876780_webtribalstatement09.html

[TaraWatchUSA]

122. Respect

I respect the words of the tribal council, but I also honor the free warrior spirit of the whale hunters!
Vicki

[Nihil]

132. What?

> I also honor the free warrior spirit of the whale hunters!

"Free warrior spirit"?

What a heap of shit.

:puke:

[ExPatLeftist]

169. Excuse me...

I really hoped, and thought, that respectful and logical discussion is what I would encounter here at DU.

I have seen exceptions, this is one of then.

Hint: You may disagree with someone, but calling their opinion a "heap of shit" is neither logical, rational, convincing or mature.

I would hope that such discourse would remain on FREEP and the sandbox. Can't we Dems think for ourselves and intelligently and rationally discuss the issues on their own merits? Just curious.

[Nihil]

202. OK, you're excused!

> Hint: You may disagree with someone, but calling their opinion
> a "heap of shit" is neither logical, rational, convincing or mature.

And you think that "I honor the free warrior spirit of the whale hunters"
is somehow logical, rational, convincing or mature?

Perhaps you feel that "honoring the free warrior spirit of the whale hunters"
is an attempt to "intelligently and rationally discuss the issues on their
own merits"?

:eyes:

Unless you are prepared to apply the same standards to both sides of the
argument, I suggest you save your pretentious waffle for someone who cares.

:hi:

[okasha]

198. Let me guess.

You're a full-blood Wannabe.

[ImpeechBush]

125. Good for them. Now I'm sure they can handle this

matter within the tribe and ought to do exactly that.

[krkaufman]

106. "based on the tribe's history and traditions"... a 50-calibre machine gun?

[benEzra]

145. No, a bolt-action elephant gun (Weatherby). The reporter screwed up.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003876011&zsection_id=2002111777&slug=whale09m&date=20070909

"Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said."


Weatherby Mark V, available in calibers up to .460 Weatherby Magnum.

[krkaufman]

210. Ok, less exaggerated, then, but still not exactly a historical or traditional weapon. n/t

[ExPatLeftist]

148. A cultural issue

Their values hold that whales may be hunted. Yours do not. So be it, you disagree. But the fact that their cultural values allow for them to do something does not mean that they have to time warp every time they want to live according to their own values (and not yours).

Are people here honestly saying that they respect the will, values, and sovereignty of other people - just so long as those people are held prisoner in the past? The issue here, IMO, is not that people want to re-enact an ancient ceremony, rather to have self-determination and the right to decide for themselves what may and may not be done. The method of slaughtering cattle has advanced greatly over the years, and I do not see Hindus protesting that cattle, if they must be slaughtered, must only be slaughtered in the way it was "originally" done, ignoring all technology since that time.

Respectfully, I simply do not see the logic in this attitude whatsoever.

[krkaufman]

211. You have no clue what "my values" are, so don't presume.

I was merely chuckling at the irony of advanced weaponry being used in a hunt that is purportedly about the tribe's "history and traditions" -- especially given the original report's info that a machine gun was used.

As for one culture's "values" being above reproach, there is obviously some point at which the external effects of said values *should* be considered.

[ExPatLeftist]

130. Another Perspective...?

Hello everyone. I decided to post in this thread, though I have been lurking at DU (appreciatively) for many years, because I feel I may have another perspective which may add to the discussion.

A bit of background which may be relevant: I come from Washington State, spent some time with the Makah during my study of Cultural Anthropology, and have lived in Iceland for the last 11+ years.

I was a contributing member of Greenpeace when I still lived in the States. I have always respected and been interested in marine life in general and whales in particular. My views on whaling have, however, changed greatly during my life in Iceland.

Currently, I have a very hard time understanding the logical rationale for banning whaling globally. I fully support global bans on hunting endangered creatures. But Grey Whales (as with Minke Whales, which are the subject of much dispute between Iceland and anti-whaling activists) are far from endangered. The main arguments I tend to hear are that whales are highly intelligent and beautiful creatures.

I wonder where we draw the line with the killing of intelligent creatures for subsistence, because many of the animals subsided on, on an immense scale, in the US are also highly intelligent (pigs in particular). So I am wondering as to whether there is an actual scale of intelligence that people believe should be legislatively adhered to, globally, when considering what creatures may be killed for food or other products. I think that this would be very hard to rank and decide upon.

As far as whales being beautiful creatures, I agree. But that is a purely subjective criteria, by its very definition, and therefore impossible to use, realistically, as a criteria for what animals to exclude from the list of animals acceptable to be killed.

Does anyone have any other objective reasons why whales, as opposed to other animals, should not be killed? I am honestly interested in hearing any reason in addition to the above.

After many years of consideration, and much examination of my own values, I have come to my own personal conclusion that the whale is simply a “sacred cow” for many in the US. All societies, groups and religions have their own sacred cows. A fine example is in the name itself. Most in the Hindu religion are against the killing of cattle. I respect their view, but do not live my life according to it, as I am not a Hindu. Cultures in general, for reasons other than religious, shun the eating of certain animals – dogs, horses, etc. While all cultures have their own mores, enforcing one’s own mores on another culture is something that I am fully against except in cases of major global impact – such as the extinction or endangerment of a species. If there is no objective reason for the imposition of regulation on other nations, then other cultures should (IMO, of course) be respected for what they are, disagreed with where applicable, but not have outside rules forced upon them. Yes, whales roam the ocean, and the removal of even one animal would have an arguable effect on nations other than the Makah (or Icelandic) nation. But this is true of fisheries in general, and I do not see it as realistic that the US as a whole would cease to fish for cod because a neighboring nation would decide that the cod was its sacred cow.

A fairly (very simplified) prevailing Icelandic view follows: In Iceland, whaling has been carried out for centuries. It has always been done with a great respect for and observation of total environmental impact. It is, mildly put, an integral part of the culture. Then, they are told by the international community that they must stop. Not due to danger of extinction, but due to what appears to be only the “sacred cow” or “Bambi” factor. What right does another nation have to enforce their sacred cows on this, or any other, nation? This feeling is greatly exacerbated by the fact that the movement is spearheaded by a nation (the USA - also relatively very young nation) which is one of the most (arguably THE most) environmentally destructive in the world. It would be difficult to argue that the US does NOT kill far more whales than all other nations, due to environmental impact. This is of course indirect murder of creatures rather than visible murder, and therefore makes for much less sensational news, but the net impact is the same. This dichotomy of the US taking the high horse in this area reeks, to many people here and around the world, of major hypocrisy.

I do not view the whaling issue (at least any more) as a Red/Blue or Right/Left issue, rather a cultural one. The US is already known around the world, and has been for many decades (though much more so since Bush took power) as a major meddler in the affairs of other nations (put lightly) for any number of reasons. In my personal opinion, it is too bad that people on the left (many of whom would be more likely on other issues to oppose foreign involvement) would get involved in this cultural argument in the area of whaling – if only because it underlines the impression (often quite correct) that the US wishes to control the world in almost every while, while categorically not leading by example. When the US can even come close to environmental perfection, then I would support its government (and citizens, for that matter) to criticize others for practices that they disagree with on a cultural level. Until then, my opinion is that one should clean his own house before pointing out the disarray in others – especially when the mess is exponentially worse in his own home. (Of course, I believe in the freedom of the individual to speak out on issues that matter to him/her, but not to legislate or enforce those opinions on other nations – thereby taking their own freedom from them.)

This all applies to Iceland. But what about the Makah nation? I guess that really depends on how sovereign you consider that nation. I believe it (and the many, many more indigenous nations in the US) should have full sovereignty. That is my personal opinion. I can from personal experience say that the Makah people live in a very depressed situation, and the major factor in this current situation is atrocious oppression visited them by the European influx, and then by the US. If we choose to see them as sovereign, then we should not impose our opinions and sacred cows upon them. To me, this is not about the tools they choose to use to hunt, but about whether they have a right, as a nation, to choose their own values and mores. If they choose to preserve the cod (example only) and not the whale, then what right does any other nation have to impose their own values on them? Or shall the values of the religion of Hinduism or the nation of the USA apply to them, arbitrarily? Who will decide which?

If these individuals have broken the law (which seems to be the case), then they should of course be punished. But our definition of sovereignty for indigenous peoples should also be examined, as well as our attitudes of how much the US, or any US individual, has the right to control other nations.

Finally, I love this site and look forward to constructive discussion.

[Evergreen Emerald]

134. The animal floundered for 8 hours before dying..

...after being attacked with a machine gun. If this is part of their culture--then we should stop it.

[ExPatLeftist]

138. Who decides what cultural factors will be stopped?

...And who is to do the stopping?

There are many aspects of the US that many around the world say "must be stopped". Would the US be OK with their intervention? No way. Blue and Red would be equally against foreign intervention of this sort.

I believe in the rule of law, and also on the rule of sovereignty and self rule.

Again I ask, why whales more than other creatures? Who decides which cows are sacred? And what right does one nation have to intrude into the affairs of others, whose values are different?

The US refuses to bow to the requests/demands/whims of other nations with regard to basically any criteria (including poisoning the Earth like no other nation) and then runs around the world playing world cop in nearly every area, demanding that others change to suit our mores/values/agendas/whims. IMO THAT is what must stop. Clean our own house and then start looking outside it...

[Evergreen Emerald]

195. torture should not be tolerated in the name of "culture"

[ExPatLeftist]

143. So you would support whaling...

...if death was instantaneous (or close to it) and involved no suffering?

Really there seem to be two very separate issues in discussion here - whether or not whales should be hunted altogether, or whether they should only be hunted if it can be done humanely. I think these two issues are getting far too blurred here.

[benEzra]

146. Not a machinegun, a bolt-action elephant gun.

It was a bolt-action Weatherby hunting rifle (like you'd use for elephants or Cape Buffalo), not a machinegun.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003876011&zsection_id=2002111777&slug=whale09m&date=20070909

"Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said."

[The Stranger]

136. This is a criminal act and the perps need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[ExPatLeftist]

140. And they will be, by Makah authorities...

...unless we are all willing to admit that any illusions of indigenous nations' "sovereignty" is all just a sham.

Hell, what am I saying. We impose our laws on people half way around the world, of course we will do the same to people that we have subjugated and destroyed for the last few centuries. Silly me...

[The Stranger]

154. They can assert the treaty as a legal defense.

It would appear that even under the treaty they have committed a crime, regardless of the jurisdiction in which it was committed.

And, even ignoring all of that, they have committed an environmental crime of international law. Cite whatever legal authorities you wish, but the attempt by some here to portray people with high powered rifles obliterating endangered animals as victims is fucking ridiculous.

[ExPatLeftist]

166. The Makah ARE victims. This was not the correct way to make that point.

As I have said before, if they have violated the law, then they should be punished. But they should be punished under the proper jurisdiction unless the US just wants to come clean and finally declare themselves rulers of the world.

The Makah are and have been oppressed for centuries. I do not agree with the FIVE individuals (those blaming the entire Makah tribe are, IMO, "fucking ridiculous" to use your terminology) that decided to use these methods to point that out. But the larger issues are the questions of sovereignty and whaling. People in the US, on all sides, it would seem, give themselves the self-appointed right to decide what is to be allowed for the entire world. I consider that as well not only "fucking ridiculous", but also insanely arrogant, especially bar rationale. When Bush does it, we Democrats become enraged. Yet there are those amongst us that would force our values on the rest of the world in other areas.

I disagree with this on the face of it.

[sofa king]

213. They really are victims, and we should try to learn from them.

Let me preface this by saying that I once worked for the Makah, though not often on this particular issue.

The central problem, the one absolutely nobody in the press and the public ever admits, is this:

Even though treaty law is the highest law of the land, the rule of law in America is total bullshit, and nobody knows this better than our American Indian tribes.

The Makah decided to exercise Article 4 (the whaling clause) of their treaty because the most evil Senator in Congress at the time, Slade Gorton, was actively attempting to destroy Indian sovereignty completely and for all time. (Slade is heir to the Gorton fisheries empire, and spent his entire career trying to remove tribal treaty fishing rights so that his boats could move in on tribal waters. He also was a member of the 9/11 Commission.)

The 1855 Treaty of Neah Bay also happens to be the treaty which guarantees the Makah their reservation on extremely desirable land on the Straight of Juan de Fuca, so the Makah felt it was necessary to have their treaty rights reinforced by legal precedent. Thus, by invoking the whaling clause (and guaranteeing a legal battle from everyone from the State of Washington to Greenpeace), and winning, the Makah were protecting their land as well as their fishing and whaling rights.

The Makah know by heart what most of you suckers are only just figuring out: despite the crap they teach you in grade school, you have no rights in America except for the rights you're willing to fight for. And yeah, it sucks that whales have to die for them to show us that, but that's ultimately our fault, not theirs.

I'll lay something else out there for you guys to consider, and I don't give a damn about what you think of it: if you succeed in taking away the Makah's whaling rights, you will succeed in enslaving us all. By fucking them over, you'll be showing The Man how to fuck the rest of us over, too.

[CreekDog]

219. they had to shoot the whale for the good of the tribe

uh huh. yes, i'm simplifying what you said, but only barely.

[sofa king]

226. Not this whale, but yeah, that is what they had to do.

And that is exactly why they did it the first time.

I make no defense for these particular people and what they did. But I'm trying to warn you that if you try to save the whales by undercutting the Makah treaty, you'll win if you try hard enough. But by winning you will further erode the rights of all Americans in the process.

And then one day thereafter, nobody will give a fuck what you think about whales, just like nobody gives a fuck about what the Makah thinks today.

[Barrett808]

163. NMFS may press federal charges, as well

Saw an interview last night. Sea Shepherd has stated they will file a suit if the feds don't prosecute.

[Barrett808]

137. Seattle Times: Hunter not ashamed of killing whale without a permit

Hunter not ashamed of killing whale without a permit
By Lynda V. Mapes
Seattle Times staff reporter

NEAH BAY, Clallam County -- It was about 6:30 on a beautiful summer morning, with gray whales all around, when Wayne Johnson decided he had waited long enough: It was time to hunt whales again.

Within minutes Saturday, Johnson and four other Makah tribal members were on the downtown dock at Neah Bay, boarding two motorized boats. By the end of the day, the men were in handcuffs and a whale was dead.

Sunday, even as tribal council members strongly denounced the hunt, Johnson said he had no regrets. "If anything, I wish I'd done it years earlier," he said.

The hunt started without a hitch: Less than a mile out, the men spotted a gray whale. But Johnson, 54, and the rest of the crew decided they were too close to shore to fire the .460-caliber rifle they'd brought.

Around 9:30, the crew saw another whale. This one, about 40 feet long, surfaced and came to the two boats.

"It chose us," Johnson said.

(more)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003877287_whalehunt10m.html

[Barrett808]

139. Online poll: Should whaling be legal?

http://www.kirotv.com/news/14081358/detail.html

Currently 61% No with 18 votes.

[ExPatLeftist]

142. Complex question...

I assume that this means legal in the USA. The US should and does have the right to make that decision for themselves.

But should other nations not also have the same right? Should the US be able to decide what is and is not allowed globally?

I would also still be very interested in hearing the rationale behind why whales should be a special case, and protected across the board where other creatures are not.

[Barrett808]

165. Currently 47% yes! Please help out with this poll:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/14081358/detail.html

Should the Makah Tribe be allowed to harpoon whales legally?
Choice Votes Percentage of 76 Votes
Yes. 36 47%
No. 35 46%
Not sure. 5 7%

[ExPatLeftist]

167. I have helped it by voting yes.

Thanks!

Don't see how this is a Democratic issue, and I disagree with your assumption that everyone here "should" vote no on it.

Just my opinion.

Peace.

[Barrett808]

221. Now 71% No, with 380 votes -- Thanks, DU! n/t

[ExPatLeftist]

168. BTW...

Your presentation of the poll question as "Should whaling be legal" is a complete representation of the poll question.

The poll question is: "Should the Makah Tribe be allowed to harpoon whales legally?"

Big difference there.

[Barrett808]

170. I just cut-n-pasted the text from the main page

Which reads, right now:

VIDEO: Witness To Whale Killing Describes What Happened
DISCUSS: Whaling And The Makah
SURVEY: Should Whaling Be Legal?

[Barrett808]

141. KIRO: Makah Leaders Denounce Killing Of Gray Whale

NEAH BAY, Wash. -- Makah Tribal Police said they'll "come down hard" on the hunters who shot and killed a gray whale over the weekend near Neah Bay.

The Makah Tribal Council said the killing was "a blatant violation" of tribal law and promised to prosecute those responsible. The five people accused of killing the whale on Saturday morning are in the custody of tribal police.

Chad Bowechop, a member of the Makah Indian Tribe's whaling commission, said the panel did not authorize the killing of the whale that was harpooned and shot several times.

Meanwhile, a fisherman who saw the hunters kill the whale said he does not believe their claim that they were trying to spare an injured whale that got trapped in fishing nets.

"We were close enough where I could actually see the tip of the harpoon," said Dave Sallee.

He said he was fishing near Neah Bay Saturday morning when he saw a boat of hunters and heard gunfire.

"When the shooting started, we figured we better get off the water. There were 21 shots fired."

Sallee said he can't get images of what he called "the brutal killing of a gray whale" out of his mind.

"They were out to kill the whale. I mean, it was just like watching 'Jaws.' They had buoys hooked to the whale. It was diving. It was coming back up. They were shooting at it. They were there for no other purpose than to kill that whale."

Authorities said they are looking for the whale, which disappeared under the surface. If it washes ashore, they want to process it to help in the investigation.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/14081358/detail.html

[benEzra]

149. Clarification--they used a bolt-action hunting rifle (Weatherby), not a machinegun.

It was a bolt-action Weatherby hunting rifle (like you'd use for elephants or Cape Buffalo), not a machinegun; the reporter was apparently clueless. (The last hunt, they used a .50 caliber bolt-action.)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003876011&zsection_id=2002111777&slug=whale09m&date=20070909

Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said.

Weatherby Mark V, available in calibers up to .460 Weatherby Magnum.

FWIW, a pre-'86 civilian-transferable M2 .50 machinegun would cost, what, $50,000? $100,000? Not something I'd want to risk mounting on a (sinkable) canoe.

[LanternWaste]

156. Sometimes, cultural tradition is over-rated...

In north central Texas, it's a cultural tradition to drive big, red pickup trucks with confederate battle flag decals on the rear window, a six-pack of beer sitting shotgun, with a head zipping around on met,h and a mouth full of bad teeth.

Sometimes cultural traditions are an important concomitant of maintaining identity. Other time, they're just... well, stupid.

[ExPatLeftist]

162. Sure...

But who decides what is "stupid" and what is valid?

I say cultures must decide for themselves, bar valid rational and objective criteria which can be agreed internationally, such as the classification of "endangered".

I really had hoped that someone would give me such a justification as to why whales deserve special status over and above all other creatures to the point that they deserve global protection, regardless of endangered status. Anyone?

[LanternWaste]

179. We all do-- every day...

But who decides what is "stupid" and what is valid?

In the case of the OP, and in the case I offered, I'm going to decide that it's stupid. We all do-- every day. Whether or not that perspective is acted on is another story...


"I really had hoped that someone would give me such a justification as to why whales deserve special status..."

There's so few of them left...? :shrug:

[ExPatLeftist]

182. Grey whales are not endangered.

There are more Grey whales and Minke whales today than there were 100 years ago.

I agree that threatened species should be protected. And hunting of others should be regulated to keep populations at an acceptable level. But the case here is that these criteria are not applied to the whale. Some people's love for these creatures causes them to want to tell other people from other cultures who do not share their views what to do.

In my opinion, the US needs to stop trying to police the world, telling everyone else what to do, and focus on themselves and how they are screwing over the world. When that is done, then they will have a leg to stand on when preaching to the world. Until then it is just hypocritical arrogance.

Edit: BTW - I agree that we all make judgments as to what is stupid, every day. But having that opinion and turning it into legislation are two very different things. Especially when we are talking about forcing those views of "stupid" on the rest of the world. I cannot imagine people in the US giving any nation as much right to tell the US what is "stupid" and impose those views on us as they giver themselves with regard to the totality of the rest of the world. And if other nations WERE given that right, I think the US would be in serious trouble. Plenty of more than stupid stuff going on there. I simply wanted to point out that maybe the US should take care of its own issues before it tries to impose its will on others.

[LanternWaste]

188. I'm neither confirming nor implying

While I'm neither confirming nor implying as to Gray Whale's being on the endangered species list-- my contention is that there are too few of them.

If I had the opportunity to vote on legislation banning whale hunting (regardless of the reason for hunting them), I would. But I'm not telling anyone what to do-- I am going to call it stupid when the occasion arises.

Sure it's cultural relativity-- one of the things that makes us human. And if a sovereign nation believes it's well within their right to slaughter whales, I'll believe it's well within my rights to call it stupid.

[ExPatLeftist]

189. Absolutely. :)

I fully agree that both rights should exist.

The fact is, unfortunately, the only one which is currently available is the "calling stupid" part, as the US and others have pressured most nations to stop whaling, imposing their will due to, yet again, might making right.

And I will admit I take this issue a bit personally. I live in Iceland, one of the most ecologically sound nations on Earth. Total environmental impact is considered in everything done. We have our problems, but relatively, they are minute. We had the first commercial hydrogen filling station, use thermal energy like no place on Earth, salmon flourish here (which cannot be said about the northwest of the US where I see very few trying to save those creatures). This is all done hand in hand with those that have the most to gain (long-term) from increasing populations - whalers, fishermen, and those who make a living off the land. Ecology is necessaily an integral part of Icelandic life, and has been for over 1000 years. Not a fad nor a flash in the pan, but a true cornerstone to thought. Despite all of this, and despite the fact that the US is the polar opposite to Iceland in terms of pollution and ecology, based on one issue - highly regulated and well-researched whaling - the US and US organizations have condemned Iceland and threatened (and acted on) all sorts of boycotts. Icelanders cannot understand that, because our sacred cow is not the same as your own. There is no endangerment, and no rational, logical reason that a few whales should not be culled scientifically. It all comes down to the imposition of values, which only results in animosity toward the US. Iceland has done well for centuries without being told what to do by the US (as did the Makah - before the US came in and nearly obliterated them through a variety of methods).

The most ironic part of this is the attitude of environmentalists that send letters to Iceland from the US, claiming that they will boycott Icelandic products and not visit here because they do not want their money going to a nation which would "impact the environment" in that way.

Yet these same people have no problem whatsoever continuing to live in, consume in, and pay taxes to the nation in the world that has arguably the worst history of raping the environment.

Whaling alone vs. massive air and water pollution, endless wars, depleted uranium, the largest nuclear missile stockade on the planet, ceaseless construction threatening all sorts of species, and far less freedom and far more human rights issues than most of western Europe.

What does this ban really mean then? And who is really stupid? I have my opinion, and am very content with where I live, though I will continue to try to make it even better.

[Barrett808]

209. Koitus, is that you?

Can't be that many US expats in Iceland.

:hi:

[CreekDog]

218. if you don't think the US should be 'policing' the world on this issue

Then I don't think you should be telling us how to protect whales in OUR waters.

[Barrett808]

164. Here's the GD thread:

Calif. Gray Whale Shot With Machine Gun
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1767327&mesg_id=1773442

Thanks, Lasher!

[Mrs. Overall]

172. Makah tribal leaders publicly denounce accused whale hunters

Source: KOMO

NEAH BAY, Wash. -- The five members of the Makah Tribe who reportedly harpooned and shot a gray whale on Saturday without a permit also did not have permission from tribal leaders, the Makah Tribal Council said on Sunday. The council denounced the accused hunters as renegades.

"We are a law-abiding people and we will not tolerate lawless conduct by any of our members," said Debbie Wachendorf with the Makah Tribal Council. "We hope the public does not permit the actions of five ill-responsible persons to be used to harm the image of the entire tribe."

Tribal leaders said the five arrested men have posted bail and have been released. They are set to stand trial on the reservation later this week. Officials with the National Marine Fishery Service said the men may also face federal charges. The men were first detained by the U.S. Coast Guard on Saturday and later turned over to Makah Tribal Police.

The whale was headed toward the Pacific Ocean after being wounded Saturday morning, according to U.S. Coast Guard Petty Officer Shawn Eggert. But it disappeared beneath the surface about 7:15 p.m., dragging buoys that had been attached to a harpoon, and did not resurface. A biologist working for the Makah Indian tribe declared it dead, Eggert said.



Read more: http://www.komotv.com/news/9680792.html

[regnaD kciN]

173. Riiiight....

The hunters claim they got the approval of tribal leader Ben something-or-other before killing the whale (because "it had become trapped in their nets"), and his own rabble-rousing rhetoric before the backlash indicated that he was impatient to start whale-hunting again, and ready to defy the U.S. government on the matter.

Of course, once the news was greeted with rage from the non-Makah world, and once it became clear that this event might delay the approval of official whale-hunting, the Makah leaders suddenly went into full backtrack mode. Now, it seems like their strategy is to "talk tough" about punishing the hunters, in the hopes that this will dissuade the federal government from charging them with real crimes that could result in jail time. (Based on the initial federal reaction, it seems this strategy is working.) Once they're safe from charges in U.S. courts, no doubt, they'll be given a quickie tribal trial and fined fifty cents or something...then be taken off to a tribal banquet in their honor. :puke:

[MilesColtrane]

174. In other news, George Bush claims he got the approval of the Amercian people...

...to start an endless war of terror.

[CreekDog]

217. two wrongs doesn't make a right

and one really bad wrong doesn't make another wrong any more right.

now don't minimize the legitimate discussion going on here.

[xchrom]

175. yeah -- it's pretty awful isn't it?

and the whole thing is a bad bad way to serve a tradition when the oceans period are in such trouble.

[ExPatLeftist]

177. Yeah, the oceans are in deep trouble

And why is that?

Hint: It ain't because of the Makah.

The US government (and US citizens that take part in its rape of mother Earth) trying to take the high road on the whaling issue is like Adolf Hitler railing against someone accused of manslaughter.

[xchrom]

180. well there's the d'uh statement of all time.

no of course the oceans aren't in trouble because of the makah -- but the makah -- just like the rest of us have to live in the world as it is.

whale meat is some of the MOST polluted meat around because of where they are in the food chain.

these ''traditions'' are about keeping a person in his/her proper relation to the world.

the oceans are broken -- whales take a long, long time to reproduce -- even the loss of one is significant and flys in the face what these ''traditions'' are supposed to be about.

[ExPatLeftist]

181. It was not intended as a revelation.

It is obvious and was intended as such. And I do not appreciate your lack of respect. I personally choose to not insult people, even those that I disagree with.

But whaling, like any other sort of hunting, can be regulated to limit impact to extremely low levels. Regulation is the key here, IMO.

My point was that the US government/citizenry have not earned the right to claim the high ground in an area where they are the worst offenders.

My question, from the beginning, has been, "Why do whales, those that are not endangered, deserve special consideration over and above all other animals?" I have yet to hear a logical and objective answer to that, after years of asking.

From what I have seen, it is the imposition of subjective value on peoples of other cultures. Something the US is all too good at. This attitude of "we know best, OBEY us" is destroying respect for the US all over the world.

Disagree, but allow others to decide for themselves. ESPECIALLY when the practices of the US kill far more whales than whaling ever could.

[xchrom]

190. see here's the deal -- reason -- good reason -- doesn't need ANYBODY

to claim a moral high for it to be good.

reason is often directly linked to facts -- reason generally flows from logic -- there is good reason for no one to hunt whales period.

you don't like or think polluted meat isn't a good enough reason -- or the fact that they are an animal that takes a long time to recover from the added predation that hunting brings -- then there is going to be little presented to you that will be persuasive.

in spite of all presented around you -- you want there to be something that makes this hunting ok -- well it's not.

or you want this ''tradition'' ennobled more than the perversity it has become.

it never will be.

this hunt is particularly brutal and savage -- and simply portrays a craving for bringing suffering to an animal who has done them no harm.

and it's grotesque that in 2007 anyone still defends such inhuman behavior.

[superconnected]

215. I second that.

[Barrett808]

205. AP: Gray whale success story may be a myth

Gray whale success story may be a myth
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2986603

[Barrett808]

207. Seattle PI: Makah on 'damage control' mission-Team heads to DC to talk about illegal gray whale hunt

Makah on 'damage control' mission
Makah on 'damage control' mission
Team heads to D.C. to talk about illegal gray whale hunt
By MIKE LEWIS AND PAUL SHUKOVSKY
P-I REPORTERS

NEAH BAY -- Leaders of the Makah Tribe are headed to Washington, D.C., for what they described as "damage control" after an illegal whale hunt that might jeopardize the tribe's long pursuit of legal whaling.

Tuesday's trip was arranged in haste two days after a rogue group of five Makahs hunted and killed a gray whale. There's no set agenda, other than to meet with various agency managers and congressional leaders to assure them the tribe remains committed to the legal process toward a whaling permit.

The actions of a handful should not damage the credibility of the whole, tribal leaders said Monday.

Micah McCarty, a tribal council member, admitted it would be steep climb.

"It's really bad right now," McCarty said while sitting in the tribal headquarters near the mouth of the Waatch River. "It's a setback. Our intent is to assure them we are a law-abiding government."

To achieve that, McCarty said, will take more than this week's trip to the nation's capital.

The Makahs' 2,300 members, he said, realize that political leaders and the federal government will watch how the tribe deals with five of its own who could face federal and tribal charges for Saturday's illegal kill.

"The integrity of our tribal court is at stake here. So is our tribal government's credibility."

(more)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/331122_makah11.html

[Barrett808]

208. Times Colonist: Tourists were close to site of whale kill

Tourists were close to site of whale kill
Whale-watching group worried about safety, use of rifles in strait
Judith Lavoie, Times Colonist
Published: Tuesday, September 11, 2007

Shortly before a grey whale was harpooned and shot, off the coast of Washington Saturday, whale watching boats from Vancouver Island were in the area and waves of concern are running through the whale watching industry.

"Above all else, our primary concern is public safety," said Dan Kukat, president of the International Whale Watch Operators Association. The prospect of an injured whale thrashing around in an area with small boats and use of a high-powered rifle on the water are huge safety concerns, he added.

"There are many ways in which a wounded whale could turn and defend himself. Vessels from both sides (of the border) fish those waters all the time," he said. "And, most of the (whale watching) fleet was out on Saturday afternoon viewing grey whales on the U.S. side."

The whale was killed by five members of the Makah Indian Tribe, without approval of the tribal council.

Kukat is upset about the whale's suffering -- taking 10 hours to die after being shot and harpooned, with buoys attached to the harpoon so it could not dive. "I don't wish that kind of death on any person or animal. It's not a humane way of doing things and, what I find perplexing is they weren't exercising subsistence rights or doing it for ceremonial purposes."

(more)

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=3c578405-1ee6-470b-9ce7-f2964110497c

[superconnected]

216. Ken Shrams words on this

http://www.komotv.com/news/9697972.html

"Wayne Johnson, the guy who says he's got whaling in his blood, just felt the time was right to go out and kill.

No blubber shared with the elders and the young.

No ancestral stories.

No respect for the whale or for Indian heritage.

Seems to me that Wayne Johnson has been living among the whites too long.

He sure picked up one of our worst traits.

Killing something just for the hell of it."

[Barrett808]

220. Well said. n/t

[Barrett808]

224. Times Colonist: Some Island bands keen on whale hunt

Some Island bands keen on whale hunt
Judith Lavoie, Times Colonist
Published: Tuesday, September 11, 2007

Agreeing to a 25-year moratorium on hunting grey and sei whales was a tough tradeoff for some members of the Maa-Nulth First Nations, from the West Coast of Vancouver Island, who say aboriginal rights should supersede squeamishness about killing whales.

"It's something all our people look forward to -- the day when they can kill a whale and use the parts for the benefits of our community," said Charlie Coots, chief councillor of the Uchucklesaht Tribe from the Henderson Lake/Port Alberni area.

Aboriginal rights should not be limited to satisfy public opinion, said Coots. "Sometimes we have to compromise. This was not our preferred area of compromise, but the treaty is important to us," he said.

(more)

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=e57543c7-966a-4256-ba5a-837d0dde37d3&k=82972

[Barrett808]

227. Seattle Times: Makah face a whale of a dilemma

Makah face a whale of a dilemma
By Jerry Large
Seattle Times staff columnist

Saturday five men in boats killed a gray whale.

They were making a statement and exercising bad judgment.

They're members of the Makah Tribe, but they acted on their own and against the interests of the group.

Their tribe has been trying to reassert its right to hunt whales, an activity that was a defining part of Makah culture before the conquest. For them, hunting whales isn't just about food. It's about their very identity as Makahs.

For decades, the tribe didn't hunt. Members stopped voluntarily because gray whales were endangered, but when the animals came off the list, the Makah fought for the return of their rights under an 1885 treaty.

In 1999 they hunted and killed their first whale in 70 years. Success in court and at sea gave the impoverished community an emotional lift.

...

If you don't hunt whales, can you be a Makah?

I think so. There is no other sustainable choice.

A genetic study published Monday claims gray-whale populations have not recovered, that the decision to take them off the endangered list was based on estimates of their past population that were too low.

Hunting a species in distress just keeps the Makah Tribe under pressure.

(more)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003882044_jdl13.html

[Barrett808]

228. Makah delegation in D.C. faces marine mammal panel

Makah delegation in D.C. faces marine mammal panel
By Brian Gawley, Peninsula Daily News

WASHINGTON D.C. - Makah tribal officials were grilled on Thursday by the federal Marine Mammal Commission about last Saturday's unauthorized whale hunt.

"They had some real pointed questions on the details of what transpired, the process in the Tribal Council and possible charges the whalers will be facing," said Micah McCarty, a Makah Tribal Council member.

Makah tribal officials flew to Washington, D.C., this week to confirm to the congressional delegation and other federal officials that the killing of a gray whale in the Strait of Juan de Fuca was without the permission of the Makah Tribal Council.

Makah representatives also emphasized on Thursday that it was a high-powered sporting rifle that was used in the unauthorized hunt, not a machine gun, McCarty said.

The Associated Press erroneously reported worldwide shortly after the whale was wounded Saturday that it had been shot with a machine gun.

McCarty said when a "political buzz word" such as machine gun is used, it creates an image that Native American reservations are lawless.

Probably won't hurt

The tribe has been attempting to get a waiver from the federal Marine Mammal Protection Act to permit use of a treaty right to hunt whales.

A spokesman for Rep. Norm Dicks said Thursday that the unauthorized hunt probably won't hurt the Makah tribe's chance for a waiver.

"Our assessment after the meeting Thursday is that understand this was an isolated incident and shouldn't impede the waiver process in any way," said George Behan, spokesman for the representative of the 6th Congressional District, which includes the North Olympic Peninsula.

(more)

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070914/NEWS/709140304

[Barrett808]

230. Sea Shepherd: The Makah Tribe Must Be Denied a Permit to Kill Whales

The Makah Tribe Must Be Denied a Permit to Kill Whales
Sea Shepherd News
News Releases
09/14/2007

The Makah Tribal Council has apologized for the killing of a resident Gray whale by five of their tribal members.

Leaders of the Makah Tribe apologized to federal officials and members of Congress in Washington D.C. on Wednesday September 12th for the unauthorized killing of a resident gray whale off the coast of Washington state.

At separate meetings with the state's senators and officials with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, tribal leaders condemned the illegal whale hunt. Tribal representatives met with the two Washington State Senators Patty Murray (D) and Maria Cantwell (D) and with Representative Norm Dicks (D). Dicks represent the 6th Congressional District which includes Clallam and Jefferson Counties.

Micah McCarty, a tribal council member who attended the meetings, said the hunt "inflamed an already controversial issue." But he said he was optimistic it would not affect the request before NOAA for a waiver to allow ceremonial and subsistence whaling of as many as five whales a year.

"It's a public relations setback," McCarty said at a news conference.

Unfortunately it is more than just a public relations setback. The five men were not just anyone on the water that day pumping 21 bullets into the surprised whale. If that were the case the apology from the Makah would be accepted without question. The Tribe can't be expected to control every person with a criminal intent and the fact is that this shooting was not authorized by the tribe. The tribe is not responsible for the illegal shooting.

But the tribe is responsible for the selection and training of their whaling crew and two of the five men involved with this crime were none other than Wayne Johnson, the captain of the whaling crew and Theron Parker, the man who first harpooned the young Gray whale in Makah Bay in 1999. Another one of the five, Andy Noel is a Makah whaling commissioner. The other two were Billy Secor and Frank Gonzales.

These five made total fools of themselves by displaying gross incompetence with their inability to properly hunt a whale.

What this means is that the Makah Tribal Council has absolutely no control over their own officially selected whalers and whaling commissioners. Not only were the five men in violation of international law and U.S. Federal law, they were also in violation of the laws of the Makah nation.

This case demonstrates that the Makah Tribal Council is not responsible enough to be given a permit to kill five whales a year.

Both Parker and Johnson have spent three years traveling to Russia to "learn" humane killing techniques. The average time it takes to kill a whale by the Russian aboriginal hunters is 16 minutes. This is bad enough but the whale that Parker and Johnson shot with 21 bullets from a .458 caliber rifle took over 10 hours to die.

These men knew that they would never be permitted to kill a resident whale and they knew that they would not be allowed to hunt whales in the Strait of Juan de Fuca yet they approached the easiest and most docile whale they could find in an area that did not involve much work to get to. Wayne Johnson made the ridiculous comment that "the whale came to us and gave himself to us."

The truth is that this resident whale was calmly feeding close to shore when the motor boat with the armed men onboard approached. The whale had no warning and because the whales have not been molested since 1999 it had no reason to fear the approaching boat.

"This was a vicious cowardly act," said Captain Paul Watson. "They did not use the traditional canoe, they did not undertake the proper cleansing rituals and they did not approach the whale with respect or in the traditional manner. They did not have the blessing of their Elders. They were five thugs in a boat with underpowered rifles wanting to vent their frustrations on a defenseless creature."

Things have not gone so well for the whalers since they slaughtered a baby Gray whale back in 1999. Last year Theron Parker was soundly criticized for his involvement with a fatal canoe accident. Billy Secor was involved in an incident where he held his wife hostage at gunpoint and Wayne Johnson has a record of assault and was once ordered to attend anger management classes by the court.

Wayne Johnson has also said that he does not feel that the Makah need to use traditional boats and harpoons. "It's about killing the whale," he said in 1999 and added, "if nothing else we pissed off the white man."

At the IWC meeting in Anchorage in May of this year, Wayne Johnson told Captain Paul Watson that he was looking for a Humpback to kill. "Why eat hamburger (referring to the Gray whale) when we can eat steak (referring to the Humpback). When Captain Watson informed Johnson that the Humpback was endangered and protected, Johnson replied that such things meant nothing to him. "We are Makah and we can do what we want with the whales. We have the right to kill them all if we so choose."

With men of this character heading their whaling crews, the Makah have demonstrated that they are not responsible enough to manage a whaling operation that could see five whales killed each year.

So far, neither the U.S. Federal government nor the Makah Tribal Courts have laid any charges against the five.

On Monday, Tribal Council member Micah McCarty told federal officials that the five men will face charges in Makah Tribal Court and will face penalties for violating the tribe's whaling management plan governing how the tribe hunts a whale. He also said he hoped that the five men would not face federal charges if the tribe prosecutes them.

"My impression is our system has the respect of all those concerned so far, we know there's probably concurrence, although the federal process takes longer. My hope is they will consider the actions of our court," McCarty said.

The problem is that no charges have been filed and if charges are filed the opinion on the reservation is that the Makah Courts would never convict the five for killing the whale because the defendants will use their treaty rights as a defense forcing the Makah to make a judgment on their own treaty rights.

"These five men are either part of a sophisticated scheme to test the system or they have opened up a sea of trouble for the Makah Nation," said Captain Paul Watson. "I can't see the Makah courts convicting them and if they do not then it will be a free for all with every Makah tribal member with a gun free to shoot at whales anytime they so desire.

The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society believes that the United States Federal government must bring charges against these five men for violating U.S. Federal laws.

"To place these men above the law based on their race is racism," said Captain Watson.

The International Whaling Commission has lodged a protest with the United States government over this incident and the IWC will certainly be aware of the violations when they meet again next year to discuss the Makah request for a quota.

Comments:

NOAA's chief, Conrad Lautenbacher, and the agency's fisheries director, William Hogarth, met with tribal leaders. A spokeswoman, Monica Allen, said Hogarth is convinced that "the tribe is taking this very seriously, and they are on top of it."

Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., said the illegal hunt was "a very serious situation," but commended the Makah leaders "for immediately condemning this rogue act and taking steps to prosecute the offenders."

Brian Gorman, also a spokesman for the fisheries service, said the five men arrested last weekend could face civil penalties of up to $20,000 each and up to a year in jail. Criminal prosecution under the federal Marine Mammal Protection Act is rare, he said. "The episode over the weekend has certainly slowed things down. We're going to have to reconsider the whole process. It doesn't mean we're withdrawing from it," he said. "We need just to have a little breathing room."

Captain Paul Watson said, "I hope Hogarth is right and that the Tribe does take this seriously and I hope Senator Murray is right and the Tribe does take steps to prosecute the offenders. I hope that the incident slows down the permit process, but overall I am not optimistic. When all the self righteous indignation dies down, these five vicious whale killers will most likely return to the water with their guns to torment and torture yet another whale in the name of tradition. One thing I do know for sure is that the ancient Makah whalers would never have inflicted such disrespect upon so noble a creature. They were whalers out of necessity and they were courageous men with proud and sacred traditions. These five men are just thugs."

http://seashepherd.org/news/media_070914_1.html

[Barrett808]

229. First Nations: "Their selfish, cruel act betrayed whales and the Makah Tribe"

"Their selfish, cruel act betrayed whales and the Makah Tribe"
Whale wake
Mourning our brethren and the desecration of our ancestral legacy

Editor, The Times:

We are First Nations whale conservationists who regard whales as our sacred brethren. The heinous poaching of a gray whale by five Makah tribal members pains us deeply ("Gray whale shot, killed in rogue tribal hunt," Times page one, Sept. 9).

No tribal tradition we know of would condone the ruthless killing of this whale. The poachers desecrated an ancestral whaling legacy, compromising it beyond redemption. Their selfish, cruel act betrayed whales and the Makah Tribe.

Inflicting mortal wounds that cause an animal to bleed to death over 10 hours; killing out of frustration with bureaucratic delays; putting ego and self above community — such behavior mocks traditional Native values. The poachers' blatantly illegal actions warrant full prosecution in Makah tribal court and under the Marine Mammal Protection Act.

The time is overdue for Makah elders, culture bearers and tribal leaders to reassess the viability of whaling in the 21st century. Imperiled by global warming, habitat destruction and other monumental threats, fragile whale populations will not endure for the next seven generations if only select groups of humans commit to protecting whales, while others persist in exploiting whales.

— Ann Stateler (Choctaw/Five Tribes)

— Odin Lonning (Tlingit), board members, American Cetacean Society, Puget Sound chapter; co-managers, the Vashon Hydrophone Project (Puget Sound's only Native-run whale research project), Vashon

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003883480_frilets14.html

[uppityperson]

231. Makah tribal member in illegal whale hunt issues statement

While I appreciate uppity people, I don't see how this will help.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003884700_webwhalestatement.html

Wayne Johnson, one of the Makah tribal members who illegally hunted a gray whale Sept. 8, issued a statement this morning:

"When the U.S. Coast Guard ordered us to drop our whaling weapons last Saturday, we were just moments away from killing a gray whale that would have fed our Makah people. The wounded whale was left to drift with our harpoons in it and a second whaling team that would have ended its misery was turned away at gunpoint. I probably shouldn't say anything about all this since it looks like I will be prosecuted in tribal court. But I'm proud of what we did. I'm only mad that we weren't allowed to finish the job and bring this whale to shore for our people.

"We've been waiting eight years since our last whale hunt for the United States to hold up its end of our treaty that guarantees our right to hunt whales. They have yet to carry out the legal procedures they claim to need. I don't know if I had any faith in the process to begin with, but I certainly don't have any now. The Makah Tribe never conceded that our treaty rights were subject to all these conditions. We agreed to participate in the process only as a courtesy, not a legality. But years are going by. So many of our elders have passed on. And some of us need this whale meat in our freezers to get through the winter.

"The whales we see out there all the time are robust and they are everywhere. Our tribe manages its natural resources very well. Our seafood is still healthy, our fish, our clams. We have an abundance of wildlife and we have good management in place. Our whale hunting is and will continue to be sustainable. We've had an International Whaling Commission quota of five whales a year in place every year since I helped bring home the whale in 1999. That's 40 whales we've been denied while the government drags its feet and makes excuses. Just like the 60 billion dollars courts say the government owes Indians today, the U.S. still does not keep its promises to Native people. If they don't want to uphold their part of the treaty, then give me back my land.

"Some people are calling what I did an act of civil disobedience. I don't know much about that, but if civil is what the government is, then call my part savage disobedience. Eskimos did it when their whaling rights were challenged. Aleuts did it when their sealing rights were challenged. Tulalip, Puyallup, Nisqually, Muckleshoot and many other Indians did it when their fishing rights were challenged. Many of us whalers have been talking about this privately for a while. Even though our community didn't know until it happened, many share our frustrations and showed support. From the inside of the jail we could hear them honking for us as they drove by. I was willing to go to jail. I did it for my mom, who is approaching 80, and for my nephew who is 5. Instead of commodity surplus cheese and canned goods this winter, I want them to eat our healthy Native foods. I want them to eat whale."