Graffiti taggers sentenced to 5 years of cleanup duty

[Dr.Phool]

Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland.com)

Graffiti taggers' sentenced to 5 years of cleanup duty
Tuesday, September 11, 2007
Jim Nichols
Plain Dealer Reporter

Two suburban graffiti "artists" will spend the next five years cleaning up the property damage they and others have inflicted on Cleveland.

A Cuyahoga County judge ordered Danny Zhang of Seven Hills and Daniel Horvat of Wickliffe to perform 2,000 hours of community service each -- 400 hours per year.

Common Pleas Judge Judith Kilbane Koch also told the two that they will be responsible for reimbursing the cost of any property owner's cleanup of their "art."

(snip)

"Out of this, there's coming a whole lot of cohesion," Cleveland Councilman Jay Westbrook said after the morning sentencing. Five community-development corporations and a number of business leaders and city officials have formed the graffiti-fighting task force, whose leaders hope to expand it citywide, Westbrook and Assistant County Prosecutor Colleen Reali said. The task force will work not only to clean up the spray-paint scars but also to identify other taggers and prosecute them.

Zhang, 19, and Horvat, 20, apologized profusely to a crowd that jammed the courtroom. It was an about-face for Horvat, who told police when he was arrested that he did it because "it's a run-down, ghetto city, so who cares."

(snip)

Read more: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1189501030154300.xml&coll=2

---

Good for the little pricks. Good sentence by the judge.

[SteppingRazor]

1. I agree. Great sentence.

I'd rather see the guys clean up their mess than have them thrown in prison for a similar length of time.

[maxsolomon]

2. provide a place for grafitti & the problem will diminish

just like skateparks do for skateboarding.

[Mike Daniels]

7. How about the taggers buy large sheets of paper and/or lumber at their expense

and do their art on that? If somebody in the community at large feels there's some value in the work I'm sure some gallery would gladly exhibit the artists' wares.

[kestrel91316]

13. Paper is cheap. So is tape, to put the paper up.

And nobody suffers finalcial loss or permanent damage due to it.

[Scout]

56. that's one of the stupidest suggestions i've ever heard....

and not likely to work.

In our college town, there is a large rock that is traditionally used for painting messages and graffitti. Do they paint on just the rock? No, of course not, they must paint on the sidewalk, the street, and the homes nearby.

Stupid people, nothing better to do...

[mainegreen]

61. Actually it works better than you would think. n/t

[Scout]

87. details? other than your assertion? n/t

[mainegreen]

91. We have numerous such walls in our city.

It attracts not only the 'artistic' graffiti type, but the taggers to. Since a tagger can spend more time there on their tag, they find these safe walls preferable.

The problem was reduced when the walls were made available for that purpose.

[maxsolomon]

72. so, then, is your suggestion punishment & repression?

that works so well in the war on drugs we should definitely apply it to the war on paint.

lock up all spray paint, ban the most popular colors outright, & glamorize the practice further among alienated youth.

it can't fail!

[Scout]

86. that's even stupider than your first suggestion....

and of course, you had to MAKE UP SHIT and attribute it to me.

I think the judge's punishment in the case under discussion was entirely appropriate.


Let the graffitti "artists" express themselves on their own fucking property.

[LeighAnn]

94. Seems a little harsh to me

I think that maybe a year of this might have given them a chance to grow up some. Five years is excessive. I hope it gets overturned.

[maxsolomon]

95. my point was simple

perhaps if a munincipal authority would provide a forum for this "art", the problem would DIMINISH. i didn't say disappear.

you said the idea was stupid. since, to my knowledge, my suggestion has never been tried, how do you know it is stupid?

my second point was also simple: repression & punishment won't stop tagging. i did not intend to attribute my example to you.

a third simple point: many people don't have their "own fucking property" to tag, nor are they likely to in the near future.

a fourth simple point: you are very angry.

[Scout]

96. fine. i'm angry, you're naive.

poor poor taggers, they don't have their own property to deface, so of course the municipal authorities should provide a space ... and these poor poor taggers will be so oppressed if they just can't spray paint whatever they want.

what harm, pray tell, will come to these poor oppressed taggers if they can't spray paint on other people's property?

[Gemini Cat]

102. Someone recently tagged my house.

[CreekDog]

88. because punishment won't totally solve the problem

we shouldn't bother with it.

Is that what you are saying?

Maybe we should stop putting murderers in jail, since that doesn't seem to fix the problem either.

At least if that's the standard.

[Darth_Kitten]

98. Oh, right MORE tax dollars for spoilt, stupid young boys.....

ah, they have to vandalize other people's property because nobody handed them a living. Maybe if they want canvasses for their "art", maybe they can get bloody jobs and EARN the money to buy them.


Have you seen any skateparks? Covered in graffiti. I guess their noses are still in a snit about their lot in life.

[Freddie Stubbs]

99. Perhaps if we proved free hookers for rapists they would behave themselves

[JDPriestly]

3. Good work by the judge.

Graffiti taggers are sneaky bullies. Citizens work hard to keep their neighborhoods beautiful, and these guys come in to ruin it. Even if you are poor, you have the right to live in a clean, beautiful neighborhood. It's horrible when the walls are scribbled up with ugly gang signs. That is the case on certain corners in my neighborhood. It is degrading to everyone who lives here. Most of our neighbors are wonderful people. I don't know who the graffiti scribblers are.

[Dr.Phool]

5. The 2 taggers come from the suburbs.

Middle-upper middle class areas.

[JDPriestly]

6. My area is inner city, but not impoverished.

[kestrel91316]

14. Ny neighborhood, with plenty of money, has an ongoing battle

with graffiti. Some years are worse than others. It has slowed down the past 5 years.

Some dumbass tagged my front window with acid that etched it and it had to be replaced, at considerable expense to my landlord and his insurer. Dummy tagger had a WELL-KNOWN tag, and the cops knew him, so he got prosecuted for all the windows he ruined up and down the street. I testified at his trial.

He got the book thrown at him, and YES, he was a spoiled rich kid from south of Ventura Blvd. He had to repay my landlord and got sentenced to hours and hours of cleanup. He's lucky I didn't catch him in the act. He would have got worse.

[Hosnon]

53. I agree. The punishment will not adversly affect them to a large degree but, at the same time, such

sentences will probably greatly discourage similar behavior (because of the length).

[lynnertic]

4. I wish they could study art.

I wish their energies could be channeled into productive contributions, in a rehabilitative way rather than a punitive way.

More than just cleaning, the judge sentenced them to be stuck in town for seven years.

That's really harsh.

[Spiffarino]

9. Tagging isn't art

Taggers may use a convoluted or even creative style, but the fact remains that it's nothing more than text designed to promote a gang and mark its territory. Five years isn't harsh considering what even six months in prison would do to a kid who's never been there before.

Considering the crime and the purpose of it, I think it's highly appropriate.

[Justyce]

10. I agree it's not art. More like destructive doodling.

They should paint all over their own stuff rather than someone else's... and you're right, the bigger issue is what it represents -- the gang affiliation.

[kestrel91316]

15. You should see the inside of some of these taggers' own homes -

they make the news occasionally - the walls totally covered with gang graffiti inside. And parents that whine about how they can't do anything about it.......

[tchunter]

20. graffiti can be art....

check out some of banksy's work. The murals he's done on the Israel seperation fence are beautiful





http://www.flickr.com/photos/omer/44260199/

i would definitely consider that art.

[Tunkamerica]

21. I was wondering if anyone would stick up for the artists

some of my favorite works were done on trains and along the tracks in France.

[JuniperLea]

26. Fine... let them paint on your property...

I've had enough.

I've seen some very beautiful stuff... but I still don't want it on my property... or on my neighbor's... or in my neighborhood...

I prefer my art, of my own choosing, framed or not, hanging or sitting INSIDE my home. Art is subjective, and it should never, ever be forced upon another.

[Barrett808]

35. Banksy can paint on my property any day

If you're reading this, Banksy, please IM me!

[frylock]

38. big fan of fr8s here too

[CC]

23. Some graffiti can be art though looking at

those pictures they are more art as graffiti to protest an injustice.

Tagz are a whole different thing. A couple of examples I found on google.










Good for the judge. The guys will get tired of scrubbing pretty fast.

[JuniperLea]

27. Art is subjective...

and should never be forced upon another... imho.

[Spiffarino]

32. Yep, THAT'S "tagging" and it's not art.

Tagging is purely utilitarian. It's a threat of violence to trespassers.

[Spiffarino]

31. That's not tagging. It's not even graffiti.

It's the work of a muralist. It's high art.

Tagging is graffiti, but it's graffiti in its lowest form. If it were graffiti done as art, I'd certainly have a different opinion, but "tagging" is a very specific type of graffiti. It's used to mark a gang's turf, much like a dog pissing on a tree and just as creative.

[CreekDog]

41. If that was what was done, they would not be prosecuted

Don't make a straw man out of this.

Taggers are not artists.

Painting murals to spruce up run down areas is not tagging, it is art.

[distantearlywarning]

74. If the graffiti in my neighborhood looked like that, I wouldn't mind.

But it doesn't. If it is understandable at all, it's gang signs and foul language.

[Dr.Phool]

17. They got basically one day a week of clean-up.

The neighborhood they were caught in has been struggling to make a comeback for about 20 years.

I don't think the sentences were all that harsh. They can still work or go to college.

I mean, even being stuck in Cleveland isn't as bad as jail. I escaped Cleveland 5 years ago.

[Miss Chybil]

22. I'm an artist.

I don't paint on other people's stuff, unless they pay me to do it. Vandalism is not art.

[Spiffarino]

33. Thank you. n/t

[pitohui]

34. trouble is the world has enough art, doesn't it?

i have tons of friends who are artists and most of them have a grim future now that they're aging yet not well-aged enough to receive medicare

it is very unlucky to have a gift for art, it is to a certain extent natural for humans to create art as it is for birds to sing, and there simply isn't a way in a capitalist society for all gifted artists to get their work out there

i know folks who have gone DECADES between gallery showings unless they were rich enough to be able to open the gallery themselves

not to justify the taggers, sure, burn 'em -- although I think taking 10 work weeks of someone's labor for FIVE years borders on stealing and seems too harsh -- but sure these young men have a price to pay

but sending them to art school would probably leave them just as bitter as serving this clean-up sentence, at the end of the day

[CreekDog]

40. Yes, tagging isn't art

The point of tagging is quantity not quality.

Leave your identifier in as many visible places as you can, sometimes for the sake of the gang.

EL BARTO is not art.

And they are lucky not to be in jail and lucky also that in 5 years, they will hate the sight of graffiti.

[Deja Q]

62. With more art and ad design jobs going you-know-where, do you think they would

take out a $40,000 loan for a $30k/yr job that in all likelihood not last long enough to be able to properly pay it all back? (never mind the cost of living, which makes entertainment money even more sparse, and then we wonder why the economy is hiccuping, it's got as much to do with offshoring as it does anything else...)?

I agree with the judge FWIW. There are venues to show off art and get noticed in good ways. Even with offshoring; the talented would still have a chance... at least that's how the theory goes...

[Darth_Kitten]

101. I'll worry about those who aren't destructive.......

I'm tired of the pity parties people have for the destructive individuals on this planet.

Gawd, I'm on a roll..... ;)

[Auggie]

8. Wish a judge like that was in San Francisco

[Gormy Cuss]

77. It'd be nice to stop the taggers who do stuff like this:

Because defacing public murals is just so artsy.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/12/BAH0S2TVJ.DTL:sarcasm:

[CreekDog]

85. they were being oppressed by the mural

this is how the taggers (as one poster here said) get at "The Man".

by painting over a 9/11 hero and victim, Betty Ong, flight attendant.

they are scum.

[kestrel91316]

11. I have a question for THIS guy:

".....Horvat, who told police when he was arrested that he did it because "it's a run-down, ghetto city........."

And whose fault do you think THAT is, dummy??? Rocket scientists JUST LIKE YOU.

Stupid people REALLY piss me off.

[txaslftist]

12. They'll wind up in the joint.

Dollars to donuts they'll get their probations revoked and wind up behind the big gray walls. Probation officers have better things to do than monitor some punks cleaning up spray paint. Much easier just to revoke 'em on technicals and close out the files.

[pitohui]

36. well i'm thinking the same thing

but didn't want to be the first to air my negativity

they are really going to have to work hard if they want to be in compliance for 5 years, i don't know if i see this happening

[mitchtv]

16. California judges, please take note

Please follow this example

[Xithras]

18. Agreed.

A few weeks ago I was driving down a narrow mountain road in the Sierra's, 30 miles from any town of any real size, and I was floored as I came around the bend. In the middle of the most beautiful countryside on the planet, some dumbshit had painted a 40 foot graffiti mural across the granite rock face. The guy who did that one truly deserves an ass kicking.

There's nothing artful about marring nature, or in destroying other peoples property. This judge did the right thing.

[jayfish]

19. Kinda Long But A Good Direction.

On a slightly side-note. I took my boy to see Transformers this summer and one of the pre-preview commercials the theater ran was stunning. It was for some contest that a soft-drink mfg. was running. The idea was to show the company how much you loved their product. They demonstrated how to accomplish this with a video of some kid tagging the products logo on a building. It was un-figging-believable.

Jay

[madrchsod]

24. graffiti is art

i have issues with on what and where graffiti is done but it is art and some dam good art..

[Laughing Mirror]

28. Beautifying drab ugly urban spaces

That's what Lady Byrd Johnson (R.I.P. Lady) was all about.

[ldf]

44. Bwahahahahahah.....

what a joke.

part of the reason those urban spaces are so ugly, neglected and slumlike is because of graffiti.

and this so-called "artful graffiti" is what, maybe 1/100th of a percent of all the rest of the crap?

the tradeoff isn't worth it. only a selfish, it's all about me, me, me, asshole would vandalize someone else's property and think it's "cool".

this is what i pay 1600 a month to live in, in manhattan. unfortunatly it is all i can afford. to live in a decent neighborhood would be 2500 to 3000, minimum.





yes, it REALLY beautifies the neighborhood.

vandalism, by street trash.

[Laughing Mirror]

75. "LA UNICA ODA"

That's stunning. They must be doing a thriving business. Wonder if they've noticed the missing M? It doesn't bother me personally, of course, that missing letter. And La unica oda does have a certain ring of irony about it.

The dirty gray building behind it doesn't look so cheery itself, although it is graffiti-free.

$1,600 a month seems like a lot of to pay to live in an urban environment that from your picture could be almost anywhere in the Third World.

[JuniperLea]

29. Art is subjective...

And it should never be forced upon someone else. And it should never be placed on another person's property without their prior approval. And it should never be put on public property either.

[Raine]

39. Painting your gangs name

on someone else's property with a spray can is not art. x(

[Tunkamerica]

42. Whose name would be art?

And were these guys in a gang or painting their own name, not that you would care either way.

[JBoy]

46. I certainly don't care "what" they were painting

If I caught someone either tagging my house or painting the world's greatest mural I'd kick them in the nuts. That said, 5 years is probably too long.

[Mike Daniels]

54. Regardless of what they were painting - if it was on someone else's property

and done without permission it's still vandalism.

As far as public spaces, I seriously doubt that someone would be able to complete some of the more creative and artistic pieces without either the eventual awareness or permission of the powers that be.

[Freddie Stubbs]

100. But you don't have the right to impose your 'art' on others' property

[RantinRavin]

25. Well at least they don't have to dig a ditch

nt

[Odin2005]

30. Good sentence.

The last time something like this came up a bunch of people came and defended this kind of vandalism. I'm surprised they haven't shown up yet and decried this sentence as a crime against art. :eyes:

[mitchtv]

45. Grafitti has its place

as a voice for the disenfranchised, the voiceless, It is true to its roots throughout Latin America, where it carries a message, one that will not be told in the papers or the media. I did not mean this as a response to your post. I hate this garbage after what I saw them do to the NYC subways in the 70's.

[Exultant Democracy]

48. There was graffiti in Ancient Rome, and your right it does have a place.

It is a refuge for the voiceless.

[CreekDog]

67. This is marking territory

not free expression for the weak.

If anything, where gang related, tagging oppresses neighborhoods by showing that gangs, not residents are in control.

[mitchtv]

71. In this case yes, and these days

Freeway blogging can replace the vandalistic type grafitti that we all hate. But to be honest I live in an area with lots, and lots of long walls, and I would be thrilled if one day I awoke , an instead of scribbling I saw a nice , great big "IMPEACH" sign scribbled a half a block long.

[Exultant Democracy]

103. I think as an American it is my job to question the authority and not the

person who arguably could be expressing free speech. I'm not a fan of slippery slop arguments, but when it come to something like graffiti (which is clearly a form of expression) I think we need to be even more careful because it is predominantly a form or expression used by a group of people who in general; have no property, are below the poverty line, have no elected representation, and have a 50 50 chance of ending up in Jail.

[depakid]

37. As much as I hate taggers- 5 years is too long

and it just sets these kids up for failure. They'll end up with a probation violation and be right back in the system.

Of course, I don't expect the moralizers to care at all about practicalities like that.

[CreekDog]

66. These kids are failures! This is not going to "cause" them to fail

You think a kid that goes around tagging enough to get caught and get a harsh sentence is on the happy train to successville?

I think not.

The next stop is jail and if they are tagging for gang-related purposes, they are destined for jail, early death or both.

[Turbineguy]

43. 5 years for tagging?

Gee, I wonder what the fare is for invading the wrong country and killing a million people....

[JerseygirlCT]

81. The judgement of history? nt

[Jed Dilligan]

47. Working for free for a full year (50 fulltime workweeks)?

That's worse than a year in jail. At least in jail you get fed. The judge is setting these kids up to commit more crimes to make ends meet. I'm sick of attention-seeking primadonna judges handing down ludicrous sentences to garner the applause of a bloodthirsty public.

Why not just flog them like in Singapore? At least that doesn't turn their lives into an economic impossibility that can only be conquered through, guess what? More crime, of types more damaging than graffiti.

Is anyone charging property owners for making us look at the ugly fucking walls and shutters that most tags go up on?

[RamboLiberal]

49. Cry me a river for these poor misguided taggers

The judge sentenced them to 400 hours a year. That's one fricking 8 hour day a week. They have 6 other days they can hold down a job. They deserve to clean up after themselves and others of their ilk. Jail time does them and the taxpayer no damn good. Better for them to be working that 1 day a week cleaning up for the property owners they have done wrong to. Did you know in many communities the property owner can be fined for not cleaning up the tagging? What does that cost the property owner many of whom can't afford the clean up?

How about what these idiots did?

The only local monument to a heroic flight attendant from San Francisco killed in the Sept. 11 attacks six years ago is a North Beach mural that vandals have defaced almost beyond recognition.

Betty Ong, 45, who grew up in Chinatown and North Beach, was a flight attendant on American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane hijacked by the terrorists. Just minutes before the plane smashed into the World Trade Center, she quietly contacted authorities and gave a detailed description of the hijackers.

Ong is one of several Chinatown natives depicted in a 200-foot-long, 7-foot-tall mural dedicated to Chinese contributions to American history. Titled "Gold Mountain," the mural also includes educators and nurses, Edsel Ford Fong, a waiter made famous by the late Chronicle columnist Herb Caen, and Larry Ching, the "Chinese Frank Sinatra," who was a longtime entertainer at Forbidden City.

Painted by artist Ann Sherry in 1994 on the side of an apartment building on Romolo Place, the mural has been damaged by taggers numerous times. Each time, Sherry, the building's owners and community volunteers have stepped up to perform touchups - and twice to restore the mural completely.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/12/BAH0S2TVJ.DTL

[Jed Dilligan]

50. I can assure you they will not be able to

hold down a job and also meet the court's requirements. Interview several hundred parolees and get back to me--then we'll have similar data to look at.

The requirements are designed to keep the defendant in the system for as long as possible, not to reform or punish, just to keep the money flowing to the court and associated agencies. By joining in the public festival of aggrieved victimization you are enabling the system to pick your (or actually your kid's school's) pocket for decades to come.

[RamboLiberal]

55. Oh bull - plenty of people are holding down jobs

and doing their public service sentence. I think there are also many in the system who are personally incapable of holding down a job. Tell how how these little miscreants are holding down jobs in the first place and paying for their property damaging and eyesore tagging supplies?

I hope judges in Pittsburgh are paying attention. We have a 21 year old tagger who did a half million dollars in damage and was an arrogant twit. Oh and he had a 2nd home in San Francisco. Actually he's not a citizen so maybe we ought to just send his butt back to his home country of Columbia. But I'd rather see "MFONE" sent out to help property owners clean up all the crap he spray painted. BTW, some of these guys I'm amazed they don't get killed since they spray paint bridges and overpasses that would give ironworkers pause. Now painter will have to risk their lives even with their safety equipment to cover this "art". This clown is an art student - why doesn't he turn his art to canvas or ask if he can paint murals on building by willing property owners?

[Exultant Democracy]

104. I'm not going to say you are absolutly right, but the odds say you are.

If a person is living on the margins making min wage then this type of sentence will a least force them to sell drugs.

[Mike Daniels]

57. wow, slightly over 1 hour a day on average

That's really going to cut into their ability to work and make a living.

Even if they have to put in 8 full hours one day a week that still leaves them with 6 other days to work at gainful employment

Cry me a fricking river.

[Scout]

58. 400 hours per year, for each of 5 years....

not one year, 2000 hours.

Did you read the article?


edit: typo

[CreekDog]

65. The perps will have less time for tagging

And I doubt that tagging was "gainful employment".

[Jed Dilligan]

68. What a ridiculous assertion

I'm out of this thread. Enjoy your festival of aggrieved self-pity as upstanding law-abiding harsh sentencing supporters. I'm sure the group hug will be nice and slimy.

[CreekDog]

69. Why is it ridiculous?

You think they were headed for full time employment already?

You think the path these kids were on needs modification or not?

You say a ridiculous assertion but you offer no argument of what makes it ridiculous.

What is an appropriate sentence for taggers?

[PlanetBev]

51. As a commercial property manager, I hate these little bastards

They tag the buildings, we get a call by city code enforcement to clean it up withing five days, or we get fined. As soon as I have it cleaned, the taggers are back. The worst is when they etch the glass on the front doors of the buildings, as it gets very costly.

When you repair the damage they've done, they turn even meaner and come back with a vengeance. I've had fantasies about what I'd like to do to them if I had the chance, and it's not very pretty.

My congratulations to that judge!

[Deja Q]

63. Seconded.

As much as some graffiti really does look cool, without the permission of the building owner it's not supposed to be there.

Especially if profanity is involved.

[FuJun]

52. In the Minority...

I think this sentence is fucking outrageous!!! Five years for tagging? I could see a month or two, but this is just cruel and vengfull. This verdict will most certainly be overturned on appeal and the facist judge should be removed from the bench.

Jesus, lighten up people, it's just spray paint and a symbol of a dynamic culture. Would you rather have bland sterility?

[RamboLiberal]

59. In the past many of these jerks got a slap on the wrist

Maybe one day a week for 5 years of public service will get their attention and the attention of other taggers! And as they clean up the work of other taggers may be they will be cussing out the miscreants who cause this property damage and cause eyesores to our cities. Sorry, but they get no sympathy from me.

[Mike Daniels]

60. Tell you what. If you want the dynamic culture on your property

have at it and invite these guys over once they have some free time.

Most people don't want to have someone else's artistic vision (no matter how "dynamic") thrust upon their commercial or private property without their consent.

[CreekDog]

64. If it's gang related, is that just culture?

Get a clue.

You aren't disagreeing with the majority here, you are simply wrong.

[ronnykmarshall]

78. Well I'll tell ya ...

If someone painted some "symbol of a dynamic culture" on my house ...... the little fuckers would have to remove a foot out of their asses.

Why don't you provide them with YOUR address and let them express the fuck out of themselves.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Cruel and unusual.

5 years is way out of line.

[CreekDog]

83. Why? It's not 5 years of prison

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. Sure, and it's not 150 years in a Soviet Gulag.

So I've no idea what your point is.

Giving somebody 5 years of community service for graffiti is like giving somebody a $200,000 ticket for going 50 in a 45.

[pitohui]

92. as a couple of us were pondering upthread, it almost seems like a set-up to destroy them

they've got to keep up with this for 5 years, 10 full work weeks out of each of the next five years, presumably they still have to fulfill the usual probation requirements of having gainful employment, not associating with gang members, testing drug free, etc.

i'm not sure how realistic it is that they can do this, bearing in mind that since they are on probation, they almost certainly can't re-locate and get away from their gang associates -- and that's for five long years

i see the point of those who have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage done, which they can't afford to pay to fix, so these taggers do need to serve some sentence to discourage these creeps from financially destroying business and building owners

but i don't know, keeping someone 5 years on a challenging probation like this, it almost seems like a set-up

the judge knows he's setting them up for jail but wants the blood on someone else's hands, as it were

[distantearlywarning]

73. As a social psychologist,

I can tell you that graffiti is a major contributor to the psychological perception that a neighborhood is "bad". Having a perception that a neighborhood is bad often becomes a self-fufilling prophecy as residents who can move away do, and those who are left feel free to trash the block even more (after all, it's already crappy, right? So why bother picking up your own trash or being a good neighbor?). And nice people don't move in when they see graffiti everywhere, no matter what else the neighborhood has going for it.

For this reason, I think graffiti, far from being a "victimless" crime, is a tremendously anti-social act that has far-reaching negative consequences for many other individuals living in the taggers territory. I hate seeing graffiti in my neighborhood. It makes me sad when new graffiti appears, because I know it's just another small step down the road to urban decay in my area (a primarily African-American 'hood that already has an undeservedly sketchy reputation because of the black faces on the street).

Taggers hurt all of us.

So I'm happy the judge handed down this sentence. It demands that the perpetrators help solve the problem they created instead of just rotting in prison or whatever (a solution I always thought was stupid for non-violent criminals). It seems more than fair to me.

[Throd]

76. Great! Taggers suck!

I came to such a conclusion after painting over tagging twice a week for seven years in an attempt to keep my neighborhood looking nice. Ok, maybe not nice, but not a total shit-hole.

Why is nobody complaining about the harshness of the "community service" forced upon those citizens who care enough to clean this crap up?

[Mike Daniels]

79. But you're missing the point by defending the property owners

Because the residents who paint over this subtly executed work are really just oppressing the natural artistic drive exhibited by the creators of this dynamic culture.

sarcasm....

[Scout]

89. good one Mike! n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

80. Very good sentence. nt

[MAGICBULLET]

82. here's an interesting article on grafitti

<http://www.bladediary.com/index.pl?stencil=212>

I think the sentence is good, but let's see if it could help reduce horrible tagging in general. Ugly tags are just generated by "toys". I'm very much interested though in seeing quality graf. When business owners allow some of these artists to paint on their property they make make some very interesting pieces.

[panzerfaust]

84. For 5 years they cannot move from Cleveland, does this mean?

That seems a bit excessive?

I lived in Cleveland as a kid for awhile. Horvat was right - it IS a run-down ghetto city: at least the part I lived in was. Of course where I lived was called a "slum", not a ghetto. Maybe a ghetto is better.

[pitohui]

93. right they can't move while on probation or on parole

well, actually you can, i know a couple of guys who jumped thru all the hoops and were given permission to move while on parole (not probation, but i assume it's similar) but they were pretty highly motivated -- one was in recovery and drug/alcohol free for years, the other had never used any substance but committed a minor economic crime (check-kiting)

i don't know how motivated your average gang member is, i think people slip into gangs precisely because they aren't really motivated

[Darth_Kitten]

97. Right ON!!!!!!

Serves the destructive little @#$@#@# right.

High five to that cool judge! :D