2 boys, ages 9 and 11, charged with sexual misconduct

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Source: mlive.com, Associated Press

2 boys, ages 9 and 11, charged with sexual misconduct

9/18/2007, 9:18 p.m. EDT
The Associated Press

HOWELL, Mich. (AP) — A 9- and 11-year-old boy face charges after authorities say they forced a 7-year-old boy to perform oral sex on them on a school bus.

The Howell elementary school students have been charged in juvenile court with one count each of first- and second-degree criminal sexual conduct, and gross indecency between males.

Both could be placed on Michigan's sex offenders registry for life if they are convicted, The Ann Arbor News reported Tuesday.

The incident reportedly took place in May.

Read more: http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/news-47/119016612087050.xml&storylist=newsmichigan

[Deja Q]

1. .

x(

I hope the victim can recover from that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. And kids that age wouldn't do that

unless they had been sexually abused themselves or had been exposed to material that's inappropriate for children.

Something's seriously wrong in their homes.

[pitohui]

3. are you serious? kids that age DO do that

at least back in the day they did, we didn't even know it was really wrong, it was just playing doctor back in those days

kids do notice that some kids have parts that stick out and that it feels interesting to suck, slap, poke, rub, grab, spank them

[Scout]

6. no, they don't "force(d) a 7-year-old boy to perform oral sex on them "

sorry, playing doctor NEVER involved being forced to or voluntarily performing oral sex on two boys in the back of the school bus in MY neighborhood!

jesus christ on a pogo stick :eyes:

[pitohui]

9. well i lived in the suburbs

i guess we were a little more wilder back in the day, of course we didn't do it on the school bus, we had the woods to play in

what parents didn't know didn't hurt 'em

but yeah, oral sex is sucking, and kids did suck, it's kind of natural, seems to me

we got a little older, we grew out of it, and never discussed it again, but it happened all right, it happened plenty

:shrug:

[dave29]

11. in my case there was a larger difference in age. I was four. They were nine and older.

So what, right? So, I'd like for them to cover some of my therapy bills.

-Dave

[bitchkitty]

17. Forced sodomy "happened plenty?"

Just another day in Pleasantville, eh?

[pitohui]

33. if you want to look at it as sodomy, well, i guess it did

in the single digit ages yes there are things you do that are not socially acceptable to do when you're a little older

i can't believe none of you remember what it was like to be 7

yeah, stuff got "sucked" if you consider sucking sodomy -- maybe you guys only sucked your thumbs, but some of us had a little more spark and curiosity than that, i'm sorry!


it's hardly major league john wayne gacy sex killer material, young kids explore and learn by touch, by feel, and yeah by taste

i can't believe human nature has changed so much in a handfull of decades :shrug:

[Scout]

36. i remember being 7 and trust me, there was no cocksucking going on

amongst our peer group.

and if there had been, it would not have been dismissed as "playing doctor"

playing doctor is not the same as forcing another child into performing fellatio

[bitchkitty]

49. Honey, if that's how you grew up, you have my sympathy -

and I wish someone had intervened on your behalf.

It is not normal or natural in any way, shape, or form, for a child that young, to want to engage in oral sex, consensual or otherwise. If they do, it's because somebody taught them.

[Javaman]

21. So did I and frankly, I never saw any of that crap.

These kids are sick and obviously come from a home with very stunted social tools, if not outright abuse.

I don't know the suburb you grew up in but none of this sounds in the least bit normal to me.

[libnnc]

22. I had "friends"..boys who were incredibly mean and cruel

and tried to force me (and other girls) to do all sorts of things. This was back in the late '70s in rural NC. Those boys were probably abused.

It does happen. Kids can be really, really awful to each other.

[TygrBright]

12. You can't begin to imagine HOW wrong...

My esposo ran a shelter for a while, for adjudicated kids for whom the 'regular' facilities were 'not appropriate.' That included some ordinary runaways, kids with combined substance abuse and mental health problems, and some kids who were serious criminals but TOO YOUNG to go into the regular youth authority facilities.

Some of those "too young" kids were horror stories even worse than this one, and in every case, the homes were indescribably awful. Some of those parents and older siblings could teach Gonzo & Co. about 'stress positions,' etc. There are some sick, sick, sick people out there, quietly raising families and putting kids through living hells, but so unobtrusively they fly under the radar screen until the kids are already warped, twisted little monsters themselves. Some never get caught, and the kids grow up to become our worst nightmares.

But as we say, in America ANYONE can grow up to become President.

bitterly,
Bright

[donsu]

23. agree - and to do it on the school bus.

nt

[Snarkturian Clone]

30. This is true.

I have kindergartners at the school I work at that love Saw III and all talk to each other about it.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. Exactly. These children are almost certainly victims of

sexual abuse themselves and acting out.

How horrible all around!

[midlife_mo_Jo]

45. Sounds like good little sociopaths

Unfortunately, this may only be the tip of the iceberg. Drown cats. Kill dogs. Shoot animals. Bully. Force sex on another child. Lie repeatedly. Steal.

These are all common traits of a child with a serious emotional disorder. As a mom of older adopted children, we've been fortunate enough not to have this stuff in our family, but I know plenty of other families in my adoption network whose children engage in sociopathic behavior - usually due to very serious attachment disorder or in utero brain damage due to alcohol. Sometimes, the kids have been abused. Very often, they haven't been sexually abused, but have been seriously neglected. Gross neglect is just as serious as abuse to the developing child. (Not not all kids affected by alcohol are sociopathic. Some can be real sweetie pies.)

I'd like to know more about their situation.

And for those who don't think this is that serious - SHIT! ARE YOU NUTS?

If an eleven year old boy raped a seven year old girl, I think most people here would be screaming! But because it's "just boys" it's no big deal?

[varkam]

4. Sex offender registry for life, huh?

Yeesh...

[rpannier]

5. Should we be totally surprised???

A guy streaking at 6:00 in the morning in Colorado may be placed on a sexual registry.

They tried to put a 9 year old girl in Illinois on the registry for looking at a boy who was naked.

[varkam]

8. Not at all.

They tried to put a 9 year old girl on there? Good grief. These laws have jumped the shark.

[Evergreen Emerald]

28. really? Streaking? I find that hard to believe

Unless he was exposing himself for sexual gratification. Why was he streaking? Who was he exposing himself to?

[rpannier]

35. The priest who was jogging in Colorado at 5 am last summer

According to authorities interviewed on the 'news' streaking qualifies as an offense that can get someone on the registry

[varkam]

40. Yup. Streaking is a sex offense in a number of states.

As is public urination.

[kdmorris]

18. That's the first thing I thought

WTF? These kids need to be rehabilitated. There's obviously something wrong. It would be different if they were 19 and 21. They are way too young. And the question for me would be "Where did they learn that?".

[varkam]

42. I still have a problem with that even if they were 19 or 21. eom

[kdmorris]

52. Well, yes, that does raise a good point

Should it really be legal to continue to punish someone who has done their time in jail? Having your name on that registry, which is usually publicly accessible, continues to punish someone who has gotten out of jail.

There is no other crime in America in which your name is put on a list, complete with a description of your crime, for all to see. And that list is often used by communities to run a person out of town. It violates the constitution in a number of ways. Cruel and unusual punishment, right to not incriminate yourself, and in some ways, unreasonable search and seizure.

I was just being kind of flippant in my shock. I still have a problem with sex offender lists when they are adults, but this is just the most bizarre thing I've ever heard of. Those kids will never have a chance. Their entire life will be overshadowed by this ONE thing they did. And there is NO way that all those people who read the lists will know that they did this when they were still children. And children they are.

It's early in the morning and I feel like I'm not really explaining it well, but that's the pre-coffee version.

[Evergreen Emerald]

29. not for a 9 and 12 year old

[Pesky_Hound]

50. Varkam

That jumped out at me as well. I have serious misgivings about putting minors on a sex offender registry. There are very few situations where I would treat minors that harshly. The only case where I think minors got off way to easy was the case in the UK where 10 year olds killed a 2 year old in a very brutal way, I feel those two might be unredeemable.

[varkam]

51. Welcome to DU!

Here's one of the problems about the registry, though. Once you start using it as a means of punishment, not only does it become unconstitutional but it also loses any utility as a regulatory scheme (i.e. so the public can protect themselves from predators).

[Scout]

7. sex offender registry is too much, but something needs to happen

there is probably something wrong in their homes, as someone else posted.

[dave29]

10. I don't know what to say about this

they are just kids. But it also happened to me, when I was aged four, and changed my life forever.

What can you do?

[vietnam_war_vet]

31. Dave29, you're far from being the only one....

I was 10, in 5th grade. Three 7th graders, who had a clique, told me I could join their little clique, but only after I went through their "initiation." In the park woods near my home, they had me take off my pants and underpants. Then, the leader of this group -- the son of our small town's most prominent/influential Catholic family -- had the other two boys bend me over and hold me while he attempted to sodomize me from behind. I resisted with everything that I could. He lost his erection without being able to enter me and he was embarrassed in front of his group. Angrily, he grabbed a nearby stick and anally penetrated me. They all laughed while I screamed. Then they left. I was a bloody mess. I went home, managed at first to avoid my siblings and parents, stuffed toilet paper up me to stem the blood flow, and then went out to our burn barrel to burn my bloody clothes....and that's when my older sister caught me and told my parents.

My parents took me to our family doctor. The exam was more pain and humiliation. He had to stitch me up inside.

I will never forget my Dad asking the doctor, "I believe that he did this to himself, what do you think?" The doctor said that yes, that was possible.

My parents were very socially conscious in our small suburban town. There was no way they were going to believe my story about who had done this to me....there was no way they would risk going up against one of our town's most influential families.

Yes, I had to have some therapy as an adult to deal with this incident and how my parents reacted to it. -- Michael

[mahatmakanejeeves]

41. Oh, how awful.

I'm so sorry. It must be painful to share that, much less recall it. I hardly know what to say.

[BreweryYardRat]

53. Jesus.

That's awful.

I hate people who put their social status before their children's happiness -- or in this case, health and safety.

[ekelly]

13. This particular part of the charges

caught my eye:
"The Howell elementary school students have been charged in juvenile court with one count each of first- and second-degree criminal sexual conduct, and gross indecency between males."


Gross indecency between males?
Does there also exist on the "books" a specific law/charge regarding gross indecency between a male and female?

Or am I seeing discrimination where none exists?

[SayWhatYo]

15. That popped out to me too... but there are a lot of laws that still, right?

[uppityperson]

Seems it should be minor issues, not "between males".

that is something.

[McCamy Taylor]

14. Who is being charged with abusing the 9 and 11 year old? They learned it somewhere.

How do we know that the 11 year olds two younger siblings have not already been the victims of sexual abuse at the hands of the same predator that taught him to be a predator and that keeping him out of the house will not simply direct that predator's attention towards the two younger kids? How do we know that the 11 year old did not molest the 9 year old---or vice versa?

And here is something to think about: how do we know that the 7 year old has not been the victim of sexual abuse somewhere else, like within his family, say a grandfather or uncle? And that he taught the 9 year old how to do it, who then taught the 11 year old how to do it. And the 7 year old's family is trying to cover up by blaming the other kids?

Just looking at a kid and saying "He looks little and immature and he looks big and mature" does not tell you anything about whether or not a child has had significant abuse and whether or not a child has become a predator or is just innocently acting out what he has experienced. But that, combined with race and socioeconomic status are probably what the police go on.

[colorado_ufo]

16. There is a tremendous amount of sex on television,

especially on satellite/cable. If the parents subscribe to porn channels, kids can get a graphic education by sneaking TV time.

[xchrom]

19. back in the day -- we all still knew how and what to do

in order to act out sexually.

it wasn't on telley -- or a lot of places.

but it still happened.

parenting is the issue here.

[pitohui]

34. how stupid do you think kids are? this is ORAL sex they're talking about

they're talking about sucking, sucking is a natural fucking reflex for babies, thank you

just how stupid do you think kids are?

yes, forcing the other child was wrong (if it was forced, which hasn't been proven) but it is perfectly natural for kids to know that they have a mouth and that sucking feels good, sucking mom's tit, sucking their own thumb, and then they see that certain of the kids have an "extra" thumb it might be interesting to suck...

you'd have to be pretty damn dumb to need vivid video to explain that one to you

the children should be taught better manners, hell yes, but destroying their family lives with bogus investigations and registering them as sex offenders FOR LIFE over a fucking natural reflex is just insanity

[Tab]

20. They only know what we teach them

Being on the registry for something you did when you were 9 is ridiculous, but at that age, you don't know. You're just curious and reacting to cues you're given.

[MissB]

24. Gah.

I cannot imagine my 9 year old committing such an act. How awful for the seven year old.

[FooFootheSnoo]

25. I think this is a little overkill

They are all kids and I don't think putting the two boys on the sex offenders registry for life is going to help anyone. I agree that there may be some abuse going on in these boys lives.

Another point: Where the hell was the bus driver when all this was going on?

[-..__...]

39. To fucking bad.

:nopity:

There are some things in life that are inexcusable... this is one of them.

[varkam]

43. But putting them on the sex offender registry for life is okay?

I mean, if they are pure-bred predators, then as a matter of public safety sure...but somehow I doubt that these children would qualify.

[originalpckelly]

44. What about the suffering the kid who had to do it is going to face the rest of his life?

[varkam]

47. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be punished.

Nor am I arguing that what they did wasn't wrong. But there's a couple of problems here. For one thing, juvenile crimes are typically wiped once you turn 18 (because the prevailing attitude is that kids make mistakes) but, of course, putting them on the SOR for life will never go away. Second, the SOR is only consitutional when viewed from a regulatory perspective. As soon as it becomes a punitive mechanism, then it is violating constitutional rights.

Again, I'm not saying that they should not be punished.

[karlrschneider]

26. Lots of hysteria over not much.

:eyes:

[ohio2007]

27. .."not allowed to spend the night at his mother's house if his two younger siblings are present."..

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/news-47/119016612087050.xml&storylist=newsmichigan

Where does this boy live if he can't live in his mothers house when the two younger siblings are present?

...where do the younger siblings live when the older boy is in his mothers house?

?
How many village idiots does it take to raise a child?

[Scout]

37. let's see what kind of a big deal you think it is if someone

forces YOU to fellate two men!

oh, i bet you'd just pull a gun on them and shoot them, wouldn't ya?

[originalpckelly]

46. I think I feel comfortable telling you to go Cheney yourself.

That poor 7 year old is going to fucked up the rest of his life. You could understand if this was all consensual, but it wasn't. This was forced, and that fact will almost certainly damage the kid.

[uppityperson]

48. Being forced to perform a sex act is "lots of hysteria over not much"?

Remind me to not rely on you for any support.

[Withywindle]

32. Yikes, but it sure does happen.

I got sexually abused--gang-raped, even-- pretty damn thoroughly by a bunch of my peers (girls between 11 and 13) and never told a soul til I was in my 20s. What they did to me was way worse than any man ever did.

But I wouldn't want them on a sex-offender registry for life, jeebus. Kids do FUCKED-UP things to each other, but I don't think they had any understanding of what the long-term effects would be. It was just a queen-bee pecking-order dominance thing to them. It probably is to these kids too. They aren't necessarily being sexually abused at home, I don't believe that's true of all kids who do this. A non-sexual authoritarian type of abuse could do the same thing, I think. Or a hardcore fundie-cult thing that associates sex with shame and degradation from a VERY early age.

[DuaneBidoux]

54. Many posters miss the point: whatever it was they are 9 and 11.

You don't start charging kids this young with any crime. You find out what is wrong with them and get them obviously needed help.

I do not believe any child of 11, let alone 9, can comprehend what it actually even means to do this kind of stuff. They have no comprehension of the violence they are inflicting. Yes, they must be made aware in a very firm manner and there must be consequences, but to charge these kids with crimes is idiotic.

[ProudDad]

55. Check some of the posters on this thread on an allegedly "liberal" board

"to charge these kids with crimes is idiotic"

There are lots of mean-spirited, ignorant, unconscious IDIOTS on this board...

Imagine how many more there are in the criminal-injustice system...