Pastor opposing airport's sinks for Muslims

[Newsjock]

Source: Indianapolis Star

A Baptist pastor who lost a son in Iraq objects to the placement of special sinks that would aid Muslims at the Indianapolis airport in preparing for prayer because he opposes "the fraternization with our open enemies during a time of war," according to a statement from his church.

The Rev. Jerry Hillenburg, pastor at Hope Baptist Church on the city's Far Westside, is calling on Mayor Bart Peterson to halt the installation of the floor-level sinks at the Indianapolis International Airport.

The sinks, which would be installed near the parking lot where taxi drivers wait between runs, would aid Muslims in washing their feet in preparation for their ritual prayers. Many cab drivers serving the airport are Muslims. They currently wash their feet in regular sinks or by using bottles of water.

Read more: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070921/LOCAL/709200579

[JI7]

1. stupid asshole, they probably shouldn't do it because the govt shouldn't fund for religious

purposes. but the guy is the type that would support govt fudning for his religion but not for others.

[Oddball]

5. You got that right.

Bet he supports other "faith-based initiatives."

[saigon68]

66. I''ll bet the epithet Kill the" R-- H----s" emanates from his pulpit

Every week

What an ass clown

[Honeycombe8]

43. You're right about the reason. I wouldn't go so far as to call the pastor an a-hole, though. But..

why does he think Muslims are the "enemy"?

Maybe he's just overcome with grief right now and not thinking clearly. That can be excused because of his circumstances.

But I would be against funding the placement of toilet appliances for religious reasons. That's not right.

[blonndee]

46. No, it CAN'T be "excused because of his circumstances."

His "circumstances" are that he's a fucking bigot, or at the very least, a short-sighted idiot who's blaming the wrong party for his son's death. "Our open enemies," indeed. Since when are cab drivers working in America part of the occupation and conflict in Iraq?

[Tesha]

49. Doubtless the pastor votes *FOR* candidates who support the war.

Doubtless the pastor votes *FOR* candidates who support
the war.

'Shame it's now cost him something, but sometimes,
you get what you vote for. In the real world,
actions have consequences.

Tesha

[Honeycombe8]

53. If someone is overcome with grief because of killing of a child, I think...

that can be overlooked temporarily. The rest of society should not take on his grievances, though.

Like the father who attacked the perpetrator criminal who had kidnapped and raped his son. Wrong to try to kill someone. Understandable that he was not acting rationally under the circumstances.

Could be that the pastor is a bigot, anyway, and would be this way regardless. But I think it's best to give someone in the angst of grief over the death of a child some leeway.

[Realityhack]

60. Sorry but no excuse for him eom

[The Stranger]

64. A bigot is a bigot and that cannot "be excused because of his circumstances."

[neweurope]

2. Isn't a christian pastor supposed to love his neighbor

and to turn the other cheek?

And - because you attacked Iraq all Muslims are enemies now?

:puke:

---------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Feral Libertarian]

35. But you will never see......

.... hate as pure as the hate the flows from the pulpits of many so called christian "men of god" These are the people that make me barf

[Adsos Letter]

3. We are at war with the Muslims of the world?

...I thought our war was against terrorism? Pastor Jerry has obviously ascribed to the equation muslim=terrorist...

and this guy is going to act as someone's spiritual shepherd? hmmmm...

[The Stranger]

65. The context of the "War on Terrorism" is a war against Muslims.

The text attempts to belie the context by claiming it is not, but as some are perhaps inadvertently willing to admit, it is a war against Muslims.

[TexasLawyer]

4. Isn't rationale number 5 for the Iraq War humanitarian?

We are "saving the hapless Iraqi people from the clutches of Saddam."

So now ALL Iraqis are our enemies? And all Muslims are Iraqis?

[Canuckistanian]

11. That one didn't poll well

Not enough fear in that message.

[seriousstan]

6. We should also have holy water fonts for Catholics outside of all

non-denominational chapels in schools and hospitals. Even "reflective gardens".

[acmavm]

26. Don't be such a blatant ass Stan. WE haven't asked for anything. Try

to stay on target here. If you can.

[Tesha]

50. Just charter schools and vouchers, ehh? Nothing much. No big deal. (NT)

[pnwmom]

7. I think floor level sinks are a great way

to keep dirty feet out of the regular sinks.

Everybody wins.

[soothsayer]

16. not just feet, but I think they wash their junk, too! But I guess not on the floor sink unless...

nevermind!

[ohio2007]

21. I think "everybody" shold be allowed a foot bath and a warm towel

but that's just me

[mike_c]

8. that's sad-- the guy is angry and bitter I'm sure....

How do you say "it sucks to be him" compassionately?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

9. after a long flight I would be inclined to stick my jewish feet in those,

I wonder how he would react to a bidet?

Would he call it a freedom sprinkler?

[OnyxCollie]

10. No. Drinking fountain. nt

[ohio2007]

23. I bet they would let you use the fountain as long as you don't "look"

or start acting Jewish....
.. Now that would make a big stink at the footbath ;)

[TankLV]

38. Probably stand on top and shit on it like some do to toilets...

Differing cultures use public facilities differently...much to our chagrin...

Ever try to use that little hole in the ground they have in some countries?

[Raine]

12. If they put them in then

they should be for everyone not just Muslins. Religious articles should be kept out of secular places like airports even if in the parking lot. Doing something like that for one religion is a slippery slope and before long all religions are going to want to be represented with various things. Religion needs to be kept out of all places other than houses of worship.

Edit: added a sentance

[Oerdin]

13. Religion is private and the government shouldn't subsidize it.

As a Democrat I wish the people on this site would be more consistent. Religion is a private matter and public money should not be spent to subsidies religion, period. That holds true if we're talking about Bush's "faith based charities" or if we're talking about Muslims who want the government to subsidize their religious observations.

[Cobalt Violet]

18. I agree with you.

Government shouldn't institutionalizing this or any other cult/religion.

[ohio2007]

24. They will argue the minority rights are being violated and we should provide

equal footing for them to get a leg up in our society.

/sarc

[tammywammy]

29. Agreed

[depakid]

48. Maybe not, but there's a chapel (probably a Babtist one) at Raliegh Int. Airport

Not sure how it's ran & paid for, but you can bet the fundies don't have a problem with that....

[harun]

52. What makes you think government money is going to be used? (n/t)

[harpboy_ak]

14. Not if they won't let passengers carry booze

If these cabbies are like those in Minneapolis and won't take pax who are carrying booze, there should be NO accomodation. OTOH, if they are washing their feet in sinks at normal height, I wouldn't want to wash my hands there, and if they are standing wall mounted sinks they will eventually pull loose from the wall.

Instead of the airport building special footbaths, they should lease space to a group that wants such accomodation, and let them build and pay for the footbaths. That avoids establishment of religion problem.

[ohio2007]

25. they also refuse service to the blind

as ( seeing eye ) dogs are still considered filthy to them.


.... even though those seeing eye dogs are working like a ..... "cabby"

[pop goes the weasel]

33. that's exactly what they should do

Surely a group of Muslims can rent space and build what they need. That preacher still won't like it, but then it wouldn't be his business. As long as public money is involved, the public--including hopelessly ill informed and bigoted segments of the public--has a say.

I don't live where there are a large number of Muslims, but the ones I have interacted with don't seem to have to take time out of their day for foot washing. I wonder if this is more a cultural choice than a religious proscription--like how hijab is interpreted differently depending on the culture. Maybe someone who is a Muslim can enlighten me on that.

[Vidar]

15. Needs to be tarred and feathered along with Phelps.

[Ian David]

17. We need special toilets for Republickers. Call them Larry Craig Rooms. n/t

[lateo]

19. Ah the religion of love and peace strikes again.

Gotta love it.

[ohio2007]

20. Government approved segregation for muslim only fountains?

I think if it went to court, it will be thrown out like the Ten Commandments in front of a court house ;)

just saying

on edit,
this should not be judged as a religious issue

[ima_sinnic]

22. who said they're "Muslim only"?

You or I or anybody would be free to use them but probably would simply choose not to, because washing our feet is not part of any standard American practice.

[ohio2007]

27. ....right......

you can pretend there will be no altercations at these foot baths but I can see this practice in hygiene will not welcome all.

Especially those with religious and political agenda's start to practice their beliefs around such public utility fixtures,
just to make a public statement.

[msongs]

28. you never bathe? that's a standard american practice nt

[ima_sinnic]

32. are you pretending to be "that way," or really are?

if it's the latter, I feel sorry for you.

[eagler]

58. If others are allowed to use them I see no problem, but if not

then it is certainly open discrimination against other groups.

[xchrom]

30. can we say it now? -- that pastor is NOT a christian. n/t

[ldf]

31. i don't believe in double standards on any level

since the only way "domestic partnerships" for gays could be acceptable was if they were opened up to absolutely anyone, straight or gay (with the majority of people taking advantage of them being straight), then these footsinks should be accessable to absolutely anyone.

no double standards.

besides, religion should be a personal choice, practiced PRIVATELY, and not shoved down anyone else's throat.

if your religion requires you to do certain things that are unacceptable in public, here, then maybe one should go where it IS acceptable.

i'm an atheist. and i am sick and tired of having to make allowances for other's religions, ESPECIALLY when, given then chance, most of them would, in one way or another, have me removed from society.

i don't give a flying fuck about anyone's "personal relationship with god".

:grr:

[fujiyama]

34. I really dislike any "special" accomidations given for any religion

but installing these sinks makes practical sense.

Honestly, I'd rather have people washing their feet in one of these, than a regular restroom sink. Of course, these foot sinks should be open for use by anyone. Likewise, Muslim cabbies should be required to transport anyone, whether they have dogs or booze on them.

[LiberalFighter]

41. They shouldn't be washing their feet in the sinks for that purpose period.

If they truly need to wash their feet for their faith then include a water bowl for that purpose in their taxi. They probably don't really need even that. Just a bottle of water and sprinkle it over their feet and wash them without even getting out of the vehicle.

[Zhade]

36. Fucking racist.

NT!

[UncleSepp]

37. It seems to be a safety and cultural issue

A long time ago, there used to be a problem in American hotels that had a sudden influx of Japanese guests. The Japanese guests would overfill the bathtubs, and the floors would flood when they got in. Japanese bathtubs and American bathtubs have since changed, but during that time, some accommodations needed to be made. Sometimes, it was a sign on the wall in the bathroom. Sometimes, it was an overflow drain. Sometimes, it was a sign on the wall in the bathroom saying "Please don't stop up the overflow drain."

There was a similar problem around the same time with Americans using Japanese squat toilets that was considerably messier than the problem of the overflowing bathtubs. That's changed now, too, as the toilets have changed, but accommodations were needed there, too. Some hotels installed Western toilets before they were common in houses in Japan, and some installed handlebars and put "step here" feet on the floor.

Hygenic practices and the hardware to support those practices differ from culture to culture and place to place, and where cultures come together, adjustments sometimes have to be made. The way I see it, if enough of the people who use and work at the airport have the custom of washing their feet, then there's a justification for making foot-washing safe and hygenic for anybody using that bathroom, whether that person washes their feet or doesn't. It doesn't really matter why the person is washing their feet.

It's not a matter of anyone cramming religion down anyone else's throat. If these feet-washing taxi drivers were cramming their religion down other people's throats, they'd be forcibly washing other people's feet. Installing some sinks on a bathroom floor is not an establishment of religion, either. It's a sink, not a free copy of the Koran, not a monument to the 10 Commandments. It's a sink, that anyone who wants to wash their feet in may use. It's like listing if shrimp is an ingredient of a dish on a menu. It's not forcing kosher laws down anyone's throat, nor is it forcing shrimp allergies down anyone's throat. It's just a note that may be useful to some people, and other people are free to ignore it.

Furthermore, the real accommodation here is to the people who don't wash their feet and don't like the idea that someone has washed his feet in the sink they're washing their hands in. The people who do wash their feet have found a way to use the existing facilities to do what they need to do with no special accommodations, and if these weren't installed, would continue to do so. It's a reasonable compromise to meet the needs of foot washers and non-foot-washers.

As for religion being a private matter - not all religions are practiced in the same way. Some emphasize separation of the spiritual and the mundane, and some emphasize integration of the spiritual and the mundane.

Maybe I'm just hopelessly out of style these days, but I still remember when it was cool to find ways that people from different cultures and people with different religions or no religion could live and work and play together.

[Maeve]

39. Oh, stop being so damned reasonable!

:hippie:
You're making way too much sense for America in the opening faze of the 21st century (and I meant to spell it that way).
Good post, thank you.

[davsand]

45. Since his Baptist sh*t doesn't stink does he need his own bathroom?

That was my first--admittedly knee jerk--response.

I was reading through the thread before I posted that meanspiritd comment and I caught your reply, UncleSepp. Well said!

You sum up exactly why I was so frustrated by this "Minister" and his actions. Rather than look for a way to mutual understanding and acceptance, this so-called "man of God" is only adding to the misery and anger present on this Earth.

I can only hope that this "learned man" will pull his head out of his ass one day soon.




Laura

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. Ya think?

Simple issue of people using the sinks in a way that leaves the floors wet and slippery.

Someone will fall, sue the airport, and then the sinks will be intalled.

No one is cramming anything down people's throats.

Chill out, fellow "progressives!".

[rpannier]

40. If he had opposed using federal money for religious purposes I'd have lauded him

He's correct on opposition, wrong on the why

[DemBones DemBones]

55. If it's tax money, federal or not, he's right, Muslims should

not get special treatment. Are Jewish and Christian airport employees allowed to take prayer breaks?

Christians and Jews are not allowed to take time out of their workday or schoolday to pray. That should change since Muslims are being allowed to. Catholics used to pray the Angelus three times a day but the Industrial Revolution turned people into workers with few rights. Maybe Muslims will help us get our right to pray restored.

[slackmaster]

42. How about installing 1,000-gallon saltwater tanks for dolphins?

Cultural accomodation is a two-way street.

[mitchum]

44. Another Baptist who wasn't held under long enough

[Posteritatis]

54. *cleans monitor* Dammit, I wanted to drink that Pepsi.. (nt)

[mitchum]

57. I wish that I could claim that line, but it's not mine

Also, I really like the ambiguity of the line :)

[JCMach1]

47. Let's see how the good pastor likes dirty feet all over the sink!

or water all over the bathroom floor. That's the practical alternative. Of course, when are fundies ever practical.

Then we can talk. Of course, he will never use those toilets anyway...

[KittyWampus]

62. the practical alternative is Muslim who need to bring their own H20. And using bathroom sinks

should be prohibited. As a safety and hygenic measure. And maintanence.

[MindPilot]

56. My religion involves pot, porn, chocolate, group sex and power tools.

Can I have a special area set up for that? I really need to pray while I'm at the airport.

[slackmaster]

59. Are you a SubGenius too?

Your religion sounds a lot like mine.

http://www.subgenius.com/pam1/pamphlet_p1.html

[MindPilot]

61. Actually I'm a frizbeeist...

We believe that when you die, you land on the roof where no one can reach you.

[slackmaster]

63. Ah, so if someone says "MindPilot is up on the roof and won't come down"

It means you really are gone.