'No homosexuals in Iran': Ahmadinejad

[democratic]

Source: AFP

NEW YORK (AFP) — Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad skirted a question about the treatment of homosexuals in Iran on Monday, saying in a speech at a top US university that there were no gays in Iran.

"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country," Ahmadinejad said to howls and boos among the Columbia University audience.

"In Iran we do not have this phenomenon, I don't know who has told you that we have it," he said.

Ahmadinejad was challenged during his appearance on Amnesty International figures that suggested that 200 people had been executed in Iran so far this year, among them homosexuals.

Read more: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hATGOzv6YSmgeMY1zdYbdpyrG2cw

[BadgerLaw2010]

1. *Takes phone call* Oh, I have just been informed we now have five less homosexuals than zero.

[Ellen Forradalom]

2. Perhaps it's because they execute them

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html

[liberalhistorian]

3. Yes, they don't have any because he's done his

damnest to wipe them out through torture and execution. His statements are a little like the man who murdered his parents throwing himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan.

[iamjoy]

4. No Open Ones, Maybe

They just all have to cower in the closet for fear of imprisonment or execution.

It makes me think of that scene in Borat, where he mentioned to the guy at the rodeo that in "his country" they hanged gays. And the stupid rodeo guy said something like, "that's what we're trying to do here."

[AlCzervik]

5. after hearing that clip again i think that is what he meant.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. It is absolutely what he meant (OK, maybe not absolutely...:-))

Of course, that makes him sound like less of a buffoon, so everyone will pretend he said they don't exist at all.

People hear what they want to hear.

[uppityperson]

7. In Iran they have homosexuals that are not like ours, true.

They must act differently, being that different of a country, society, etc. True that they don't have homosexuals like in our country.

But, they do have homosexuals.

[defendandprotect]

8. "Women for procreation; men for fun --- "

Organized patriarchal religions work to impose their beliefs upon others and, threby, to control not only their own members, but all of society.

"Culture" involves foot-binding and forced veil-wearing and gender "inferiority" -- suppression of homosexuality and the license of "Manifest Destiny" used to exploit nature.

Culture should be under attack -- the visible may be the truth -- "hidden in plain sight."

As some of these "cultures" say . . . . "women for procreation, men for fun."

Let's get this hypocrisy out in the open --

That photo is no more a lie than his remarks about homosexuals not existing in Iraq is the truth!!!

[hollowdweller]

9. My point exactly

A lot of folks I have known that have served in Afghanistan have told me they were shocked at middle eastern soldiers (of the same sex) being caught having sex with each other, or even very young boys, but at the same time that was not considered homosexual and even those same soldiers would support killing gay folks.

My point was that the Pres may be operating under that same set of definitions.

http://www.glas.org/ahbab/Articles/arabia1.html

[bjorkfan]

12. "Butch" vs. "Femme" roles

Some cultures take the attitude that it's not really homosexuality - and thus deserving of societal disapproval - unless a man is taking a feminine role, i.e. being penetrated by another man. A man in a masculine sexual role with another man or boy is respectable. I understand there is a similar dynamic in all-male prisons.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. you are mixing latin american cultural norms with eastern cultural norms

[defendandprotect]

57. In Brazil, DOCTORS were amazed to find that 30% of males "loved" other males ---

And they finally recognized this about two decades ago or a bit more . . ..
because of the rising incidence of HIV/AIDs among women!!!!

In other words, these wives were being infected by males who were transferring the disease from homosexual males to their wives!!!

And, all of this was hidden from society until the AIDS trail could be followed --

[phillysuse]

10. Ahmadinejad - A Friend of Craig's

"I am not gay", Senator Craig.
"We don't have homosexuals in Iran", Ahmadinejad.

What's that tapping I hear under the bathroom stall at the UN?

[rayofreason]

11. What a great idea!

Give the platform at a top university, and the legitimacy it confers, to a homophobic, actually homo-cidal, Iranian blow-hard (oops, sorry, no guys do that there, hard or soft don'tcha know).

I fact, let's give him a weekly show! That's it! Mahmoud and Friends. Where those whacky jihadis can let off a little steam, er, um, not like in steam room or anything, with like um, er, sweaty, hot, naked, hot men, or anything. Anyway...I can see it now.

This week's special guest is....David Duke!

Hello David.

Hello Mahmoud. What's rocketing?

Ho, Ho, Ho. Very funny David. Say, isn't that a name favored by ZIONISTS, one they claim belonged to a mythical king who never ruled over a mythical kingdom that never existed?

White people had that name first Mahmoud. So what is this I hear about gays in Iran? And what about drug users?

Oh, you are very mistaken David. Just another ZIONIST myth. And forget about druggies. The only stoners we have...well..ha, ha, ha

Ha, ha. You got me by the short hairs there Mahmoud.

[Socal31]

13. I have yet to see a classic DU response:

This is obviously a poor translation by the MSM! I cant believe you guys buy into this propoganda!

Those "Our current administration sucks, so everyone else must be great" people cant even bring themselves to post on this thread.

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. Your privy to the original Farsi, I expect?

It sounded to me like he was saying "We don't allow homosexuality as you do here," not "Homosexuality doesn't exist in Iran."

Could you please drop the imputation that anyone who disagrees with you is sitting on a "He hates Bush, so he must be defensible" position? It's piss poor argument, and false besides. Be honest, at the very least, if you refuse to be ethical.

[Socal31]

21. Actually,

because this was translated by someone who speaks Farsi, it is on YOU to provide a different version, not ME to confirm it. Good Luck.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. I think the version she gave is ambiguous

And that's just what I showed in the my post.

In any case, you sound like somebody who doesn't want to know, but prefers whatever version you believe. I'll leave you to it.

[monktonman]

29. ok so you speak farsi now?

of course you do.
my bad.

P.S. cant anyone have an opinion you wont disagree with?

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. Stalking is creepy

And against the rules.

For the record, I don't speak Farsi. And I agree with a lot of opinions. So I have no idea what the fuck you're on about. I clearly stated that the TRANSLATOR'S expression was ambiguous, not the original. So, again, you've made some error in your creepy and disturbing quest to "bust" me on something or other.

[ohio2007]

38. was "she" part of the Iranian mission or an outside interpreter appointed by

a third party ?
I do believe she picked the words carefully. WHat I think he meant was;
"We do not have such a morality problem in Iran" .

How easy things get lost in translation depending who does the spinning

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. I think her translation was ambiguous

That said, I'm not willing to rule out that he was saying "It doesn't exist," however asinine that would be.

There's actually a good bit of debate on this in the scholarship, with the sides forming up on recognizable lines. A global gay and lesbian human rights project has every incentive to essentialize and universalize homosexuality, and so flattens culture distinctions to locate sexuality in an essential, timeless identity. This project runs into the same problems as second wave feminism did when it began speaking of an essential feminism, a concept that was almost always thought from a Western (white) perspective. That project has been so thoroughly discredited by non-Western feminists over the last 30 years that almost nobody takes it seriously any more, even within Western nations. But the same project on behalf of gays and lesbians goes more or less unchallenged (for very clear and necessary political reasons), or it has until fairly recently. There are a number of sexuality and Middle east scholars would argue very convincingly that there is no "homosexuality" in the Arab world, which - of course - doesn't mean that there is no male-male or female-female sex and companionship. Rather, it means that "homosexuality" as defined and understood in the West, is a historically and culturally contingent concept/practice that cannot be universalized.

Foucault, of course, famously noted that there was no homosexuality before the 1870's. Obviously, he didn't mean that there were no relationships that we would think of today as "homosexual." Rather, he was arguing that our concept of homosexuality as an identity and a practice is determined by a number of historically specific conditions, and that we think of it as timeless and essential at our peril. This is anathema and quite dangerous for gay and lesbian activists, who recognize the value in tying homosexuality to a timeless (biological) identity, since doing so allows them to leverage the rhetorical weight of previous struggles (race, for instance). It's also useful in an impoverished domain of thought that reduces every practice to one of CHOICE or BIOLOGICAL DETERMINISM, a bizarre and indefensible binary attitude that run rampant in popular discussions of homosexuality. Given the "choice" between those two limited options, gay and lesbian activists are quite right to opt for the latter as a political and social strategy. But any anthropologist worth his or her salt knows that sexual practices vary greatly across cultures, and that the notion of a sexuality embedded in biology and remaining static over one's lifetime is a fairly recent invention, conceptually, and certainly does not apply to the ways sexuality is conceived across cultures.

Was Ahmedinejad making this argument? I don't know. The translation was at best ambiguous. But familiarity with the literature on sexuality in the Arab (and Islamic) world would have produced less laughter, since the question remains a very open one for people who study the region and its culture. I could get you citations on that if you like.

[CreekDog]

43. He has denied the holocaust

And that really exists.

It wouldn't be out of character to deny the existence of something else that's verifiably there.

[frankf]

46. I don't believe he did.

[CreekDog]

47. He called the Holocaust a "myth"

-he said the holocaust was a theory not a fact but open for debate (whether or not 6 million Jews were killed)

What else do you need?

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. As I said, I'm willing to believe he meant that

However, unlike the Holocaust, the serious scholarly engagement with the way sexuality operates in the Arab world (and Muslim world more generally) at least makes the easy reading (i.e., that he's a buffoon) suspect. At the very least, we could use it to open up a real dialogue on these issues.

Cheers.

[closeupready]

41. Now that I've had time to think about it, I think you're right, because

I've heard many different intelligent people claim that about their countries, and it's confusing but what is being said is that "we don't permit homosexuals to live openly."

[nick303]

66. Well let's just give him the benefit of the doubt

Such a swell guy and all, right?

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. Right

That's what I was saying.

:eyes:

[Skittles]

33. I agree something is up with those folk

it's beyong reason

[Seabiscuit]

14. This is just another good reason why it was important to allow him to speak at Columbia...

Silencing him would prevent us from knowing this and other things about the man, not to mention permanantly damage our respect for the principles of freedom of speech and academic freedom and unimpeded search for knowledge.

[hollowdweller]

16. I agree. Plus exposing HIM to the concept of the population asking hard quesitons

[CreekDog]

44. You confuse 'silencing' with not providing a forum

The president of Iran while in this nation has freedom of speech just as we do.

We are not violating our principles if we don't give him a soundboard to speak, especially when we know he will use that soundboard to deny things like the holocaust, which is an insidious, dangerous lie to spread.

[MidwestTransplant]

15. Freeper heaven.

[Socal31]

22. Disagreeing with someone who

agrees with executing drug dealers and homosexuals is not a repug V. progressive thing. It is an American thing.

[bemildred]

24. I think he was saying Iran is a freeper heaven ('cause there are no you-know-whats there).

[MidwestTransplant]

64. You should head over and read some comments sometime.

Granted they aren't representative of the whole of Republicanism.

[ohio2007]

17. the official Iranian press release

snip

On second day of his entry in New York, and amid standing ovation of the audience that had attended the hall where the Iranian President was to give his lecture as of early hours of the day,Ahmadinejad said that Iran is not going to attack any country in the world.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=206_1190659969


Before President Ahamadinejad's address, Colombia University Chancellor in a brief address
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=206_1190659969
told the audience that they would have the chance to hear Iran's stands as the Iranian President would put them forth.

snip

The audience on repeated occasion applauded Ahmadinejad when he touched on international crises.

At the end of his address President Ahmadinejad answered the students' questions on such issues as Israel, Palestine, Iran's nuclear program, the status of women in Iran and a number of other matters.



http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-24/0709252616013529.htm
;)

They loved him in New York !
No talk of gay bashing for example.

To bad no live feed back to Iran

[provis99]

20. Ahmadinejad just looks like a liar and a fool

Bush and him deserve each other.

[Canuckistanian]

23. That was quite a reaction from the audience

All the groans, derisive laughter and boos - it went on for quite a while.

[PittPoliSci]

28. i heard from my friend who was watching it from the lawn outside where it was taking place...

that there was another part of that question about unfair treatment of women too. somoene in the audience joked "maybe they don't have women in iran either." he really tried hard to dodge those questions.

[ohio2007]

37. he 'skirted' that part of the question on womens rights.

sly monkey boy of the mullahs he is

[blitzen]

25. That's enough! Guess we'll have to nuke him! Ironic that the Repukes will nuke...

in the name of gay rights!

[fenriswolf]

27. question: please don't flame

does anyone know if iran shares Ahmadinejad's view point? that homosexuality is immoral? does iran believe that they should be executed? I know that the state does and their political party does. remember iran is not a dictatorship and ahmadinejad is not the absolute ruler. just wondering if anyone know if the state population for the majority shares his viewpoint.

[Canuckistanian]

30. Homosexuality is still reviled by most there.

Although many of the younger generation are challenging that. And I don't think that many agree with the torture and execution of gays.

I hear there's quite a lot of sexual activity "behind doors" among the teenagers, since dating is practically outlawed. That probably includes gays.

The youth think that the Ayatollahs and mullahs are anachronistic prudes, but still very dangerous.

[defendandprotect]

59. And, let's make clear, that is religious/Muslim teaching which controls their society -- !!!

[ohio2007]

36. You are confusing "Iran" with "The Rulers" of Iran

the mullahs run things by the book ;)

[Orsino]

40. I assume that most Iranians are as homophobic as most Americans...

...and that homosexuality occurs at about the same rate as over here. Ahmedinejad may not see a "problem" because his laws keep so many closeted or executed.

[funkybutt]

32. Your boyfriend told us (n/t)

[ingac70]

34. He left off....

"Because I killed them all"......

:puke:

[Le Taz Hot]

35. Yeah, and Bush says the surge is working.

I'm not sure I see a whole lot of difference here. Both are delusional.

[CreekDog]

45. If you are gay in this country v. Iran, you would see the difference

For instance, here you would be alive.

[fedupfisherman]

42. They execute them

Gay in Iran?

The government will kill you.

Not even George Bush does that

[Sabriel]

49. How odd! Our professional sports teams are the same way!

An amazing coincidence.

[tom_paine]

51. If I know my Bushie-type Authoritarians correctly, Ahmadinejad is probably homsexual

I would also guess Bushler likes to experiment, too.

NOTE to DUers: I am not impying that homosexuality is immoral. It is the hypocrisy and denial of Right-Wing Authoritarians like Bush and Ahmadinejad of their true nature while they crush and destroy those gays who are just trying to live openly.

[ProudDad]

52. I heard this and

realized that there is another interpretation to what he said.

If one were to watch the coverage of "gay life" in the U.S. from afar one would see very little other than the Gay Pride Parade or the occasional gay republican congresscritter's antics.

It's VERY true that none of that would dare to go on in Iran or any other country in most of the Earth.

So his statement was accurate in that context and the pukes and the M$M are using the remark to further demonize Iran in order to make the next war easier...

Don't fall for it...



------------

On edit: Here's the EXACT translation of his quote:

"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country. We don't have that in our country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I do not know who has told you that we have it."

We don't have homosexuals LIKE IN YOUR COUNTRY...

WE DO NOT HAVE THIS PHENOMENON...

What "Phenomenon" would he know about -- the ones I detailed above since to his knowledge he has had no interaction with gay people in any other context than that shown on CNN...

Of course, it's likely that he knows a lot of gay people, he just doesn't know it or acknowledge it...

[INDIA]

53. Lol! Nice try!

"But he was mistwanswated! :cry: "

[ProudDad]

54. Enjoy your Iran war (n/t)

[yardwork]

55. Are you implying that anyone concerned about Iran's human rights abuses is in favor of a war?

Where do you get the idea that human rights activists are war-mongers? That's a new one that is making the rounds of DU the last couple of days.

[ProudDad]

62. I'm not implying anything

I'm saying that if you let the M$M USE you, you will get another war...

There's plenty to dislike about Iran and it's (alleged) "leader" (their bush surrogate) but it's a different matter to be taken in by the USAmerikan propoganda...

[nick303]

67. You're right

I can see how the "M$M" is reaching out to that large pro-gay rights pro-war sector of the population. People, don't be fooled!

[FuJun]

70. WTF?

Now I've seen everything! Call a homophobe a homophobe, and you support wars of aggression. You're a real piece of work!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. he is right. the phenomenon of visible homosexuality is not present

in the middle east or far east.

[yardwork]

58. Your statement that openly gay life is rare on earth is incorrect.

Actually, most countries in Europe and many throughout the rest of the world are far more open to gay people than the United States.

Same-sex marriages are legal in both Mexico and Canada. That's right. Both of our neighbors. Same-sex marriages are also legal in Spain, several countries in South America, and many countries in Europe. All those countries have far greater rights and protections for gay people than we have in the United States.

The fact is that Iran is near the bottom when it comes to human rights, but the United States is not near the top.

[devilgrrl]

56. That must mean that there aren't any clouds in the sky in Iran either.

What a ass! :eyes:

[Doctor_J]

60. He's just trying to get back on Hannity's good side.

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Not an uncommon attitude in the Third World, evidently

A Ugandan priest who was an observer at the General Convention of the Episcopal Church in 2003 stated that there was no homosexuality in Africa.

[KamaAina]

63. De-Nial is not a river in Egypt.

Apparently Ahmadinejad is no more closely connected to reality than our own leader* ("The surge is working great!").

[ileus]

65. See it is a choice....and everyone thought the repukes were crazy.

[Phrogman]

71. Of course the "President of the Islamic Republic of Iran" is going to give that exact answer

what? do you think he's going to engage in a discussion of Gay rights???

This whole Iran homosexual issue is a piece propaganda designed to drive a wedge between factions of the far left, to me (outside the US bullshit umbrella) it looks like the one of the final moves before ordering the attack on Iran, something to diffuse the most radical of the antiwar crowd.

And damn if it doesn't look like its working.