Woman Dies After Airport Arrest (Phoenix)

[Newsjock]

Source: Associated Press

PHOENIX (AP) -- A woman late to her plane became irate, was put in handcuffs and was later found dead in a holding cell, police said. Authorities were investigating Saturday if the woman choked herself while trying to get free from the handcuffs.

Carol Ann Gotbaum, 45, of New York, was arrested Friday at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport after a conflict with gate crews who refused to allow her to board a plane, said Sgt. Andy Hill, a Phoenix police spokesman.

The airline said the plane was already preparing to depart. She was rebooked on the next flight, but "she became extremely irate, apparently running up and down the gate area," US Airways spokesman Derek Hanna said Saturday.

Officers handcuffed her and took her to the holding room, where she kept screaming, authorities said. Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive.

Read more: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/09/29/national/a175650D03.DTL&tsp=1

[babylonsister]

1. I imagine it'd be divulged if a taser was involved. Right? nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. The article specifically said that no taser was used.

[babylonsister]

6. I know, but I still have suspicions. I've become so cynical. nt

[bliss_eternal]

10. Justifiably so.

It's not like you haven't seen several prior incidences, that would make you wonder.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

71. but was one abused?

with today's governMental entities, you can never be sure.

[Vidar]

67. My thought as well, regardless of their sanctimonious, official denials.

[0007]

73. ....never forget that Airports are the sacred cow of the Department of Defense

Which use to be called the WAR Department and from what I heard the other day they are gonna change the name to the Department of PEACE!

[Vidar]

137. Remember Ronnie "Raygun's" "PeaceMaker" missiles?

[0007]

147. ....ain't that terrible?

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Sounds like she had some pretty serious anger and self-control issues.

Sad that she got herself into that situation.

[TomInTib]

7. No kidding. Dumb, too.

"Hill said it appears Gotbaum may have tried to get out of her handcuffs, became tangled in the process and the cuffs ended up around her neck. A cause of death will be determined by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner."

The Rule of Holes applies here.

[Hissyspit]

20. People get angry when they are treated like shit and cattle.

[SayWhatYo]

26. cattle get rebooked for their flight when they are late?

[Mend]

22. Sometimes the reason for catching plane is really important for a person.

One example was when my first husband, a doctor drafted into the Army, finished basic training in San Antonio, and was shipping out to Vietnam. We lived in Florida. We had a 3 year old and a 10 month old and we were flying out to say goodbye to him. When I got to the airport, I could not find close parking. I raced the stroller, my babes, the suitcases and baby supplies to the gate as it was closing. I was crying and frantic that we would miss the flight. We made it as they held the plane for us but it was only by moments. Today I am sure my children and I would have been tasered and arrested for hyper-emotionality.

[Rabrrrrrr]

58. Reason is irrelevant - the relevant issue is that she decided to get out of control.

Your final statement is facetiousness at its worst. People are not being tasered and arrested at airports willy nilly. In fact, it's rarely happening.

She was cuffed because she refused to control her anger.

I know that it's more fun at DU to always assume that the authorities are just being fascist jackbooted assholes - and I don't know why so many on DU think that way, because I find that the truth is a lot more fun to deal with, so I can diss the jackbooted thugs when it's their turn, AND I can diss the angry, out of control assholes when it's their turn.

I don't think this is a jackbooted thug problem, I think this is a woman who's out of control with anger, in an airport, problem. Might she have had some chemical reason for the anger? Diabetes? Something else? Maybe. But not necessarily. But even so, the authorities acted properly by subduing her.

[Mend]

61. If she is dead they acted improperly.

[Rabrrrrrr]

91. Acted improperly AFTER the arrest, perhaps.

[slampoet]

63. Actually airport staff decided she was out of control.

Also remember that you are reading yet an other person's writing that doesn't involve eye witness but instead the writer asking other for their eye witness.

Please stop hauling around the dead for your assumption and start using the word if.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. "decided to get out of control". There's irony there somewhere. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

90. The only path to being out of control is to decide to be out of control.

One is always faced with the choice of behaving or not behaving. Emotions make the decision difficult, but I will never give anyone a "pass" on going out of control - it's ALWAYS a matter of choice, no matter what emotions are involved. I might very well empathize with the behavior; but that still doesn't mean that the behavior was a choice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. As a parent of a child with autism, I know that this isn't always the case.

I can buy the idea that one can decide to act out, I don't buy the idea that one consciously relinquish control.

The state of being out of control is by definition not conscious.

[harpboy_ak]

135. You obviously have never dealt with a mentally ill person

People with mental illnesses, by definition, cannot control their emotions or behavior. Believe me, after dealing with a bipolar family member who would regularly feel just fine so would stop taking her meds and go manic, the person who is mentally ill has absolutely no control, and should not be blamed for their behavior.

[Cronopio]

149. A little meth in someone's coffee, a little L.S.D. in someone's martini ...

... altering blood sugar levels, neurotransmitter levels, are all useful situations to a "peace officer" itching to try out their brand new taser on someone.

Provoking aggression is not just an old Stasi technique, it's now national policy - in Iraq, twice. Normal, law abiding people just don't go apeshit and choke themselves in a locked airport cell. Unless new evidence comes to light about her, my presumption is that she was provoked, then choked.

[Orsino]

161. Wrong.

Many people are not able to make that decision. Some people never are.

[Lorien]

167. Well, there's an oxymoron

by definition one is in control when one is making a decision, one is out of control when one has lost their ability to make conscience decisions. An out of control person is one who cannot think rationally and is acting on impulse and instinct alone.

[Nikia]

75. I remember getting upset when we almost missed our flight

It was a connecting flight. We had an hour lay over. When we got to the airport, our paperwork as well as the screens told us that we were supposed to go to a gate on the other side of the airport. After sitting at our gate for a while, we noticed that we were the only ones there and asked an airline employee who told us the gate has been switched to a gate on the other side of the airport. In response, I literally ran to the new gate while my husband walked quickly behind carrying the luggage.
When I got to the gate, they told us that the plane was already boarded. I broke down crying and may have been described as hyseterical. Instead of arresting me, they held the plane.
That was nice of them. The flight was to a smaller airport and there wasn't another flight for another four hours. I was supposed to be the maid of honor in my mother's wedding. I would have missed the ceremony if I had to take the later flight. Yes, my circumstances made it impossible for me to take a flight the day before. I guess that I shoudl be glad that, not only was I allowed to board the plane, but that I wasn't arrested.

[Rabrrrrrr]

82. I don't think people get arrested for crying - they get arrested for being out of control angry.

Nice strawman, though.

[bliss_eternal]

125. How would you know...?

Ever work airport security? Or are you a police officer, in the state of Arizona? I'd settle for you being one where ever it is that you are--but I doubt you fill that bill either.

Interesting that you KNOW so much about a situation you weren't even present at. :eyes:...and clearly have no personal expertise with. ...oh wait, what was that--that's right--based on how you FEEL. Ah. right. :crazy: That seals the deal for me. :eyes:

BTW, when was she formally arrested? There's nothing in the article saying she was arrested--just that she was placed in cuffs and left in a cell--alone. Your focus on "the cuffing" and nature of "arrest" makes you overlook one thing...

...as one that has worked with law enforcement, prisoners aren't supposed to be left unsupervised--under any circumstances. It leaves the city, state and entity they work for "at risk" if something happens to that prisoner. Unless Arizona's airports have VERY different rules in place, something here is amiss.

Your willful refusal to see it, doesn't make it any less true.

[EFerrari]

23. She didn't cuff herself or treat herself like shit.

Give me a f#cking break

[Rabrrrrrr]

57. No, but she started it by acting irate and angry.

You're jumping to the end - we need to look at the beginning, which began with her behavior.

People get late and rebooked all the time; none of them get handcuffed, except her. Why? Because she was out of control about something that a normal person would take in stride (while, perhaps, seething inside, but with the sense not to make a scene about it).

[EFerrari]

77. You have a good point. But you know, I dealt with acting out

people for most of my life and managed it without handcuffs. My mom, my kid, my husband. And I have no training except what I learned on my own. You think law enforcement would know better and do better than me. :shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

81. Which makes me wonder just how out of control she was,

if they put her in cuffs.

Sure, it could have been a problem with an overzealous cop/security guy - that's certainly a possibility. But I have a feeling it wasn't - I have a feeling that she was far beyond the ordinary airport rage.

[bliss_eternal]

120. Oh I see.

You're psychic now. :eyes: "You have a feeling" and based on "that feeling" of course she was wrong.
Remind us all how many "feelings" you've been accurate about on DU, and how many times you've just jumped into the fray of dissenting opinion.

No need to respond. I'm well aware of your history here. You seem to enjoy "instigating."

[bliss_eternal]

32. Yes of course.

She's the first person to EVER get angry, irate or seem irrational after possibly getting to the airport early, checking their baggage, standing in endless lines, stopping for inspections and searches, removing shoes and clothing for the searches, taking the time to put clothing items on after said searches, only to rush to the gate and be told that they can't board--they're too late.

Nope, NEVER happened to ANYONE else and of course this means she has serious anger and self-control issues and got herself killed.

:sarcasm: :eyes:

[Rabrrrrrr]

80. LOL! That's great!

Your post has nothing in relation to what I said.

I never said she was the only one.

:rofl:

[bliss_eternal]

117. Well--duh!

:eyes:

Frankly, I don't know why I or anyone else bothers responding to you. You seem to go out of your way to be purposely contrarian, or blatantly obtuse.

[aquart]

45. What was the reading on her blood sugar?

I'm always amazed the way people at DU immediately jump to "issues" and characters flaws and "did it to herself" (such Republican reactions) while my instinct is to ask for a full physical workup. When had she last eaten?

Emotions are controlled by chemical actions within the body. What was happening IN her body?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ecstatic]

62. excellent point. nt

[PittPoliSci]

134. very good question.

i almost died once because my blood sugar dipped into the 20s.

[Joe Chi Minh]

78. What possible excuse could there be even for the handcuffs? I couldn't

see it happening in OLD Europe. Not yet, anyway.

The worst thing that could have happened - and even this is highly unlikely - is that she could have vaulted over the barrier or barged through the officials at the departure gate and run onto the tarmac, springing past chasing airport employees and calling out for the crew to open the plane door for her and throw down a rope ladder! It's the Nazi officialdom thing again. Utterly criminal! And I don't mean her.

[Pavulon]

83. Detained and or Arrested means the cuffs

I am sorry the woman is dead. No matter who is responsible. However if you cause a public affray in a sprots arena, airport, or subway station . You will be cuffed and detained. Plenty of people are cuffed without causing death.

You will be cuffed in europe as well. In some countries you will be hit in the mouth and then they cuff you.

If she had on a medic alert bracelet there may be some police responsibility. If she did something and killed herself what can the police do?

[Joe Chi Minh]

102. Affray? I don't think there was any mention of violence on her part.

[Pavulon]

105. Affray does not mean physical violence

screaming at an agent, being drunk, physically out of control (slamming hands on the counter, throwing stuff) will pretty much get you bounced from a flight, at minimum. I would assume if you kept it up you would be detained or arrested.

Airports are private property and you can be detained or ejected for being an ass.

This story lacks information, however short of misconduct or a medical alert bracelet ignored, that is pretty much what you get worldwide when you show your ass in an airport.

[Joe Chi Minh]

109. A lot of people seem to turn up at our airports noticeably drunk. They're not allowed to fly.

They can rage and and remonstrate, but, unless the airport incidents I saw on TV were atypical, that was it. They were just tolerated (doubtless with great difficulty) until they calmed down and got the picture. But as you say, the story lacks particulars.

[Pavulon]

111. Actions make the difference

I have flown pretty drunk, and stayed drunk on the flight. But was not stumbling, cursing, or acting strange. Some people and alcohol don't mix.

I hate that person died. Even if they did choke or suffocate themselves by trying to slip cuffs around, still a shame.

I have only seen the police once, in canada, and they removed a person who would not move out of line at the counter. I did not follow them to see if they were cuffed but they were whisked away.

[Rabrrrrrr]

94. What excuse for handcuffs? How about... umm... being arrested?

Oh, yeah. There you go.

Being out of control, being a possible danger to others if left unrestrained, resisting the cajoling of the authorities. Any number of reasons, but generally the handcuffs go on as both a matter of process AND/OR because the person was so out of control that the police felt that there was no option.

[Joe Chi Minh]

100. Being a possible danger to others if left unrestrained? Why and how could she

be a danger to others for raging at officals.

I've seen it happening regularly on TV programmes about life at our airports, usually male passengers. The long-suffering booking-clerk may eventually call a security man, who speaks to him, and the guy usually just continues for a while, then maunders off. No big deal. Nobody's life or limb in danger. No handcuffs. No arrest. And a woman?!?!

Of course, at such times, you wish he WAS seriously threatened with arrested, and if he continued, arrested. Just for being a pillock. But in your country? No.

A Moslem student, while in possession, I believe, of a brown skin, moreover, was repeatedly tasered by a university campus security dolt for arguing, and then repeatedly tasered for not being able to get up, immediately after each shock! A physical impossibility.


Of course, for all that, her own lack of self-control could have caused herself to have a heart attack. But why the nonsense about strangling herself with the cuffs?

[Rabrrrrrr]

104. I applaud your optimistic viewpoint that seems to assume no human can misbehave.

Sadly, however, I have seen plenty of proof that human beings can, in fact, misbehave.

I have to suggest to you, therefore, that you reframe your hideously over-optimistic ideal of humanity.

Trust me, plenty of people are perfectly capable of acting in a way that requires handcuffs.

[Joe Chi Minh]

107. You're not reading my posts, just what you want to read. Nowhere did I suggest

she was a model of good or, for that matter, acceptable behaviour, but I see no mention of violence.

In fact, before reading your reply, I added that her death might, just the same, have been due to her own lack of self-control. I mean a heart attack. If it had been a man, I'd have had no sympathy, because some business types, for instance, can be so obnoxious as to BEG to be arrested.

[Rabrrrrrr]

110. You didn't seem to understand that people can act in a way that requires handcuffs.

I base this on your questions "What possible excuse could there be even for the handcuffs?" and "Being a possible danger to others if left unrestrained? Why and how could she be a danger to others for raging at officals?"

Those two questions imply to me that you have an optimistic outlook that denies that people can do things that will require handcuffing.

I assume now, based on this last post of yours, that that is not what you meant, but that's certainly how the questions come across and how I read them; and I see that you were not asking how anyone could possibly ever do something that warrants being handcuffed, but are asking specifically, in her case, how they could have handcuffed her since, as you see it, she did nothing to warrant that.


You are correct that the article does not offer a litany of offenses that she might have perpetrated; it reports only that she was irate and that she was then handcuffed.

[bliss_eternal]

123. You don't seem to "understand"

that sometimes people in positions of authority abuse that authority. But clearly, as far as your concerned, EVERYONE that's ever been placed in handcuffs was there justifiably. Guess you've never heard of "false arrest" "abuse of authority" or seen situations where security and even the police have abused their positions.

Your naive insistence says to me you live in a world where such situations don't occur, or you haven't seen them. Either way, insisting they can't exist because "you don't seem them" is rather dismissive. Nice way to have an open mind.

[Joe Chi Minh]

146. Thanks for the bipartisan clarification, Rabrrrrrr!

[Rabrrrrrr]

150. You're welcome! I strive for a spirit of admitting when I've done something wrong.

Thanks for hanging in there.

:thumbsup:

[Pavulon]

108. Condensed Version..

worked for me in many countries in many languages. Don't take out you problems on the airport staff. Sarcasm never seems to cause a problem. However anything more than that a bad idea. Screaming and yelling and cursing will always cause a problem, your problem. Generally not an arrest, but telling an agent to fuck off never seemed to help the person.

Airports are not McDonald's, or the pub. If you cause a problem in an airport you will be removed, possibly under arrest.

A statement like, "I am going to kick your ass" is assault and will lead to your arrest. Period. In the air, felony.

Pretty universal.

[bliss_eternal]

124. You weren't there.

You don't know what was said or not said. You don't know what this women did, didn't do or if what's mentioned in this "article" is explicit and complete. You're assuming a great deal.

You seem to need to blanket this woman with every other person that "you've ever seen" angry or misbehaving within an airport. That's disturbing. More than once, you've used the term "these people." A convenient and very common way to blanket and stereotype people, based on your own personal choice to be biased against them. You refuse to see her or anyone that is labeled as "angry" in an airport as an individual, and that speaks volumes about you.

Given this is far from the first time I've seen your "compassion" and "regard for humanity" on display on DU--welcome to my ignore list. I find the way you've labeled this deceased woman disgusting. I have no desire to read anymore of your bigotry disguised as "democratic discussion."

[benEzra]

144. We have no way of knowing what the circumstances were

that were causing her to be upset. It could have been baseless, or it could have been something that would have made any of us very emotional.

I've had the experience of having my child flown to a hospital in another state in critical condition and having to hop a commercial flight to get there in time to see him before his risky but lifesaving surgery. I can think of various permutations of that scenario involving shorter timescales, airline overbooking, and badge-heavy TSA agents that could be pretty upsetting indeed.

[opihimoimoi]

3. One of them officers punched her???

[FreakinDJ]

4. Welcome to Bush's America

Glad all the fear mongering paid off so well

[0007]

74. Yeah, there was probably a picture in the room this lady died in

of junior and his dick.

Well, on International flights when entering the U.S. you're always greeted with a picture of the president of the U.S.

[panader0]

8. Ever been handcuffed?

It would be really hard to choke trying to get them off. I was once handcuffed (pot possession) and put in the back of a cruiser. While the cops looked around, I worked the cuffs under my legs and when they came back my hands were in front and not behind. They were dumbfounded.

[jmm]

15. I was handcuffed while being trained to use them

for a former job. I can work them under my legs and am good at slipping my wrists out of them but I know that's not very common. I'm not buying the idea that she accidentally choked when they got tangled around her neck.

Also I wonder how quickly they came after she stopped screaming. If you're chocking you can't make noise.

[LaStrega]

19. I've been wracking my brain ...

Trying to figure how the fuck one would go about choking oneself with handcuffs. I can see maybe breaking a wrist or sheering the skin off your thumbs, but choking? Hell, even if the damned things weren't affixed to your wrists I still can't grasp a visual.

[lligrd]

36. Me Too, How Do You Get The Handcuffs Around Your Neck

Call me a sceptic but...

[Pavulon]

85. Ever puked

in cuffs. Probably not fun. She may have put herself in a position where she could not breathe. hooked her arms or neck around some object.

May have puked and choked to death. Could be a sugar crash.

Will have to wait and see?

BTW you are pretty lucky they did not tack on charges for that. I cant imagine they would appreciate that.

[DeepBlueC]

9. Why was she handcuffed AND in a cell?

She was that desperate a criminal...?

[bliss_eternal]

11. Thank YOU...!

My question as well. This seems excessive.

[McCamy Taylor]

12. Diabetic? Hypoglycemia?

[awoke_in_2003]

16. good point

when your sugars going wacko, it can make you appear drunken, unresponsive. Can cause angry, irradical behavior. And if the sugar was low, and they put her in the cell for some time, diabetic coma could ensue.

[ShortnFiery]

122. It takes hours to die from an hypoglycemic event. If Glycogen shot is given - you're back 100%!

I don't think this is a hypoglycemic event since I have experience assisting a close relative who has Type I diabetes.

[benEzra]

145. She apparently died of strangulation by the handcuffs...

but a hypoglycemic event could have precipated the events leading up to the death. Or not, who knows.

Hopefully more facts will follow.

[aquart]

46. Exactly. My first question.

[Savannah_H]

13. reply

I guess they can't teach the police to use common sense. One size fits all is their motto.

[mitchtv]

14. choked herelf

sure she did

[Lorien]

168. I know that it's impossible to drown oneself by simply walking into a

waking pool without being drugged, drunk, weighted down or taking other measures to ensure that you can escape drowning. I would assume that the same is true with choking oneself. I know from personal experience that suicide is difficult if it's at all slow; the body becomes a sort of separate entity that struggles for it's survival against the will of the mind.

[provis99]

17. this kind of story

just screams for more details. There better be a thorough, extradepartmental investigation into the whole thing. You couldn't choke to death in handcuffs even if you were trying to strangle yourself in a suicide attempt.

[ThomCat]

18. How the hell do you choke yourself wearing handcuffs?

How the hell is that even possible? I smell a coverup. x(

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hedgehog]

24. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that she was either a diabetic

or taking some drugs, legal or illegal. At the same time, I was the witness a few weeks ago to a woman throwing a temper tantrum because she'd been sent to the wrong gate. She was screaming and insulting the clerk at the gate where she ended up, and it was only because he kept his cool that the situation didn't escalate. I'm wondering if the case here may have involved someone who couldn't believe that the plane wouldn't come back to the gate for her.

[Skittles]

25. doesn't make any sense

she sounds like someone who should have been checked medically

[GoddessOfGuinness]

27. My father became unusually irate and restless right before he died of a heart attack.

[Robson]

128. I'm sorry to hear that

Unfortunately adrenalin from anger, aggitation, emotion, can cause physiological changes such as constriction, plaque disruption and clots to the coronary arteries in the heart and lead to a heart attack. So usually it is the emotion that causes the heart attack, not vice versa, but that could still be possible.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

129. He was in the hospital when he had the attack..

His behavior was quite irregular, even though he wasn't exactly a mild-mannered guy. My mom was concerned by it, because he was acting so strangely. She was visiting him right before he had the attack, and had stepped out briefly to have dinner. When she returned to the room, they were trying to revive him.

[Robson]

131. It can be traumatic.

Sorry to hear that as a sudden unexpected death from a heart attack (or other) of a spouse or parent or child is something that is very difficult for family to get over...as we had the experience of receiving a 3AM call that mother suddenly passed away. Maybe your dad was sensing an impending grave problem that he couldn't quite convey. I've heard that sometimes that happens before heart attacks. Hope your mother is doing OK.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

133. It was long ago...

14 years on 9/14. Mom still gets depressed at this time of year. Dad died the day before her birthday, and last year her sister passed away in September as well.

My dad's father also died of a sudden heart attack, though he was in his 70s. Dad was 59. You may be right about him anticipating a serious problem.

[SayWhatYo]

28. Doesn't make much sense...

Not saying it's not true, but it doesn't sound right.


Me bets it will end up someone will end up getting sues for this... and rightfully so... I mean, if the story happened just as said then it's her own fault, but I bet it turns out she has some sort of medical issues.

[bliss_eternal]

30. If the story happened as it said--it's her fault?

Pardon me for asking but how, exactly?

What part of "being angry and acting irrationally" makes what happened to her, her fault?

People get angry and act irrationally at airports all the time. I believe there's a reality show based on just that--how pissed off, frustrated and angry people get and how they tend to "act out" at the airport.

The waiting, inspections and lack of control individuals possess at airports add to feelings that make some "irate." Doesn't mean they deserve to be cuffed, roughed up and left alone in cells as punishment for expressing anger.

[SayWhatYo]

41. Well let me explain...

The story said she managed to strangle herself. Now, assuming that is true and there were no other medical issues, then I tend to believe that she is at fault for doing it. Whether or not the police should have put her in the room to begin with is irrelevant... You also assume that she was roughed up, and that they were wrong to even arrest her. Well, we do not know how she was acting and if it warranted her arrest. We also have no reason to believe she was "roughed up", that is just an assumption you want to make. Then again, I suppose I'm guilty of assuming that the police were negligent, and that she probably had some sort of medical condition like diabetes(I believe there was a similar story a few months ago)

You assume the cops beat her up after unfairly arresting her for no good reason - I do not. Instead, I find it far more likely that the cops were not trained to identify a situation in which someone who may have a medical condition.... Then again, I'm fully aware that I do not have all the facts, and I could be wrong. Perhaps she was perfectly ok, but stupid, and she did strangle herself. Although, I find that to be about as likely as your assumptions. Guess I'm just a fascist brownshirt, aye?

[bliss_eternal]

44. Kindly...

...don't assume what I think, and don't put words in my responses. You've taken a few of my comments out of context and used them to assume quite a bit more than I said. Interesting and rather presumptious of you.

I reserve the right to be surprised (and saddened) that you go to such great lengths to find the person that's now dead at fault--despite the fact that the story and facts in evidence are clearly lacking a great deal, as you said yourself. In spite of that, your comments clearly show you're more than willing to assign blame to the deceased. I could make quite a few assumptions about why that is, but choose not to.

Also, given that several people have responded above regarding the nature of being handcuffed and the impossibility of one "strangling themselves" while in such a position, I wonder why it is that you are so willing to accept such an impossibility as "possible."

Personally, that's enough to create "reasonable doubt" about the situation for me, and makes me want to know more about what really happened. But you'd rather blame the dead woman, locked in handcuffs--in a cell.

Good for you... :eyes:...way to think for yourself.

[SayWhatYo]

49. Well let me explain...

First of all, I didn't say that I believe she was at fault. In fact, I said I found it far more likely that she had a medical condition, and the police were not trained to detect it. However, I wanted to make it clear that I did not know the facts, and I suppose the events could have unfolded as stated and that she was perfectly healthy, and if that happened then she would be fully at for doing such a stupid thing... Then again, she could have also been beaten up by the cop because he was having a bad day... Although, I find both those be far less likely than the first, at least no without more information... but hey, admit I could be wrong... I dunno.

I apologize if you feel that I put words in your mouth or made assumptions about what you believe. That was not my intent. Maybe I'll explain why I thought that's what you were getting at. You said People get angry and act irrationally at airports all the time. I believe there's a reality show based on just that--how pissed off, frustrated and angry people get and how they tend to "act out" at the airport. To me that sounds as if you believe she was guilty of only being angry and upset, and that the police shouldn't have arrested her. Was I wrong? Next you said, Doesn't mean they deserve to be cuffed, roughed up and... I figured by roughed up, you meant roughed up. Perhaps you can explain what you meant, if ya don't mind?

Now, I made it clear in my initial post that I believed the police were probably negligent. Although, I believe in keeping an open mind until all the facts are known. I'm all for thinking for myself, but I'm not a fan of thinking up my own facts when there none or few are known. :D

Anyways, perhaps you can show me where I stated I believed she was at fault so that I can fix it, because that isn't how I meant it to come off as sounding.

[bliss_eternal]

53. Read your posts.

Everything I based my comments on is in them. I'm not interested in instant playback games or backpedaling.

If you didn't mean it that way, you wouldn't have continually stressed the point that she was "arrested." In other words, she was in the wrong or she wouldn't be in that situation. Clearly you saw her in the wrong--BECAUSE someone deemed she be placed in cuffs and a cell. As if, there couldn't be anymore to the situation than that.

Just don't try to clean it up now because I questioned you, and challenged your bias against her. You're entitled to believe whatever you want. Apparently in your world, only those that are guilty are ever accused and punished--if they die in the process...oh well--stupid them.

[SayWhatYo]

52. Perhaps I'm wrong

but it seems as if you're upset because I suggested different alternatives than you believe to what could have happened... Or that I suggested(but don't believe) that perhaps the official story was true(although unlikely), or perhaps the police beat her up... I don't understand your issue. You're coming off a bit too unreasonable here. ;) So, hey :toast: to you.


:yourock:

[bliss_eternal]

54. My "issue"

is in my posts. If you don't understand--re-read them. Don't call me names (unreasonable), because I dared to voice my opinion, and that opinion was in direct contrast to yours. It happens.

[ccpup]

68. be careful

rational thought that doesn't follow the undeniable sense of Selective Outrage which permeates DU these days is sure to get you flamed, called all sorts of names and accused of being one of Them. (cue creepy music) I've given up attempting to have mature conversations about events that take facts and personal responsibility into account on this Board ... and find myself coming to DU less and less these days.

Good luck.

[LostinVA]

93. You cannot strangle yourself wearing handcuffs

That is IMPOSSIBLE.

[scarface2004]

29. don t mess with the cretin pigs!!!

they will kill you as much as look at you!!

[Quantess]

31. I think this is completely wrong!

This is so terrible. I have once been ejected from a plane, pre-flight, because my of traveling companion's behavior...(non-behavior?) Our vacation plans got messed up because of overzealous flight attendants. My boyfriend at the time had taken some valium for the red-eye-flight, in addition to the wine we drank at the airport bar.

However, don't kill yourself over a missed plane, so to speak.

[everydayis911]

33. I don't think it was her fault

But these days if you don't know how to act in an airport you could be in trouble. I'm not saying it's right, far from it. But if you've been asleep these last 6 years and don't know all the horror stories about being labeled a terrorist for bringing a butter knife to the airport by mistake then maybe you better wake up. 9/11 gave them a blanket of force and that is why everyday is 9/11. They use it more than Rudy.

[bliss_eternal]

34. Lots of people....

...get angry at the airport. No one is perfect. We all get frustrated, feel inconvenienced, rushed or put behind sometimes. Doesn't mean they deserve to be handcuffed in a cell or to die.

Where are the arguments for human nature, and some allowances for that?

[SayWhatYo]

42. Most people who get angry and upset do not get arrested at the airport.

Perhaps this was a case of overzealous police, but there is nothing to indicate that(more likely untrained, if ya asked me..but still at fault if that was the case). There is no one who around coming out and saying she was unfairly arrested. Until there is some more concrete proof either way, I think you're wrong to assume she was unfarily arrested. What if she was getting violent? Do you not think the police should take action???

Like I said up above, I do not have the facts, and you do not have the facts, but you seem to have made up your mind without knowing what really happened.

[bliss_eternal]

47. So,

...you need everything to be written and/or announced before you'll consider it as a possibility?

Where exactly in the story does it say she was actually arrested? Or are you just assuming that, because she was handcuffed?

If no one gives you permission to think a certain way, you just can't do it---is that what you're saying?
Clearly the person in handcuffs is always wrong, right?

No one is EVER put in handcuffs by mistake, right? :crazy:

No need to respond, your bias and inability to think beyond what's distinctly stated makes your stance quite clear. :eyes:

[SayWhatYo]

50. lol

:toast:

[bliss_eternal]

48. What if...?

:shrug:

That question could go either way, but you seem determined to assume that people are never placed in handcuffs for bullshit reasons, or no reason at all.

You're the one that has said the woman was "stupid" and made several other assumptions about her when the facts clearly are not in evidence about her either. Why is that? You seem to need to believe that airport security (or if they were actual police--it's not clear from the article) always behave appropriately. You also seem to need to believe this woman, this dead woman was in the wrong. Why?

Whatever your reasons, (and I'm really not interested in what they are) be clear that you've made a choice. You've chose to not question authority and to not think outside of the box created by the words of that article. You also seem biased against this woman because she was placed in cuffs and in a cell, as if NO ONE in the history of law enforcement has ever been abused by a person in authority. Clearly that's your choice to make, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I chose to call you on it, because just like you said, "the facts aren't all in evidence here." One could just as easily presume her death was unjust and not her fault, as someone like you assumes the opposite.

[SayWhatYo]

51. I responded further up.

[NuttyFluffers]

35. why gee, that's cut 'n dry. well, nothing left to see here. must've been her fault.

oh just in case people couldn't figure it out because of the batshit insanity of this place lately.
:eyes::sarcasm:

it's amazing what has become acceptable in america in the past 7 years. now i have a glimpse of the horror my aging parents and grandparents had watching this nightmare progress in america for the past 40 years. but, heh, authority is always right, isn't it? it was the only way, right? well, the only currently expected american way...

[pop goes the weasel]

37. bet it was a medical condition

I expect autopsy or a relative who knows her health history will reveal a medical problem. There are a lot of medical issues that are accompanied by irrational anger. I think that it might be a good idea if everyone who is arrested for agitated, unusual behavior be checked over by a medic immediately if possible and certainly before being left alone.

[SayWhatYo]

43. yeah, I'm thinking the same thing...

You'd think that police would be trained for such things.

[Ilsa]

89. This is what I was thinking as well.

Sounds like she might have had an underlying medical problem that may have contributed to her irrational behavior. ITA that anyone behaving irrationally should probably be checked by a medic.

[lame54]

38. This may be her

if so family has money, is connected and successful. what do you think same age same name

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE0DB113FF932A25755C0A963958260

[lligrd]

115. You Got It

Pretty good detective work.

[noamnety]

130. That is the same person.

For some reason, after reading the post in this thread about seeing a spouse off to war, I googled her yesterday. What I found out was that she and Noah donated to grants for children of deployed reservists and national guard members. http://www.ourmilitarykids.org/donate_and_volunteer/donors.html

Made me wonder if they have someone serving in Iraq, especially as they clearly aren't rabid chickenhawk republicans:
http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/noah-gotbaum.asp?cycle=06

[FormerOstrich]

39. I was in Portland this week...

and they had a "puffer". I had never heard of such before but it appeared if you had to go through a second screening (because you left a bottle or perfume or something in you bag) they made you go into the puffer. It was a chamber that you had to stand in and then it blew air with enough force it was lifting womens hair sort of straight up.

Now, had I been forced to go through additional screening and a "puffer" chamber, for something as inconsequential as a bottle of perfume, and they wouldn't let me board (but the plane was still there) I imagine I just might lose control myself.


btw...can anyone explain to me what the "puffer's" purpose is????

[tomhayes]

40. It's a mass spectograph / gas chromoter machine

>btw...can anyone explain to me what the "puffer's" purpose is????

The air loosens any material your have on your body and the machine detects what molecules/substances are present in the sample. It compares that sample to the known readings for things like drugs and explosives and if there is a match you get searched a whole bunch more.

It seems very quick and from what I understand it's pretty effective.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article1220484.ece

[depakid]

56. Assuming it's Portland Oregon

People are pretty mellow with those deals.

In fact, the airport reflects the city- we're not mean and cowardly here (as people are in many other cities- oddly enough, the Midwest seems to take the cake on that).

So I asked the folks running it- how does it work right after the fourth of July, when pretty much anyone going through is likely to have "explosive residues" on their clothes and things.

They didn't know, but reckoned that the puffers were calibrated for things like that.

And- maybe they are!

[OzarkDem]

64. Have they ever caught a terrorist with these things?

Have they ever prevented a terrorist attack with these invasive and highly expensive screening techniques?

Wasn't it established some time ago, before the 2006 midterms, that making people remove their shoes was completely ineffective and unecessary? I recall quite a few Dems who mentioned this fact during their campaigns for House and Senate. Yet we're still stuck with them and no one says anything. :shrug:

Yet the government still subjects people to invasive, and sometimes hostile screening practices. We need to ask why.

[minnesota_liberal]

59. Arrested ... for what?

Last I knew, authorities couldn't arrest someone for becoming angry.

The article leaves out this key bit of information.

[MilesColtrane]

66. New York Post says she was arrested for disorderly conduct. n/t

[bronxiteforever]

60. It gets worse-mother of three small children and

The daughter-in-law of New York City Public Advocate Betsy Gotbaum.
Front page of NYC papers

[OzarkDem]

65. Uh, oh n/t

[mitchum]

69. Choke hold?

[Exultant Democracy]

70. She got angry, what a terrible thought crime. Good thing the cops protected us from her.

[Pavulon]

84. Sorry, I travel and I DESPISE these people.

They are self absorbed assholes. They yell at the ticket agents, make a scene and then cry and apologize. Then they do the same thing again.
Like the agent made the flight late or made them late, or get so drunk that they are booted.

This is very rare in western europe. I have never seen it there but am pretty sure they (germans, french, italians) would tell you to go fuck yourself and then arrest you.

You cant do that in an airport. You are on private property and can be detained and removed.

If she had on a medic alert bracelet and was in a sugar crash, that is a different story. If she was so drunk she puked and choked to death, well we do pay for our choices. Does not make it good but adults are responsible for their behavior.

[Exultant Democracy]

86. You should make a list of people you despise who deserve the death penalty.

They should all pay for their choices right?

[Pavulon]

87. Re read the post..

If you travel you see these people often. They get all pissed off and make a scene when something goes wrong, like the plane is coming back. I will bitch and moan, but never loose it. Because I don't want to be arrested or booted.

At no point did I say she "should get the death penalty" however adults are generally responsible for our choices. If you get arrested and then die of a heart attack from the coke you snorted, your fault. Pin your arms in a stress position trying to slip cuff in front of your body, your fault. Short of a ignored medic alert bracelet, her fault.

Unless she was in a sugar crash, there is no way the police are responsible for arresting or detaining her. The same would happen in any airport worldwide if you loose control.

Loose it on a flight (drunk yelling at flight crew) and you will be flex cuffed, the plane diverted, and you are then arrested.

Look around, you are responsible for yourself. Not the police, you.

[Rabrrrrrr]

92. Wow, methinks that jerked knee musta hit you in the head.

Pavulon said nothing about a death penalty, nor about deserving a death penalty.

Perhaps you need to re-read his/her post.

[Exultant Democracy]

95. It is what the entire thread is about, women runs into cops woman dies.

Pavulon made sure to tell us all how much he despises people like her. Sorry I put one and one together to make 2. Maybe Pavulon should have posted his thought on airport edict on a different tread.


F the fascists and their Good Little American apologizers.

[Pavulon]

101. Woman CAUSES run in with cops

and ends up dead. I hit the 250,000 mile a year mark for 3 years. I have done WAY to much flying.

I despise self absorbed people who can not act normally when something goes wrong. I have seen them screaming at a ticket agent, spit flying, because they were bumped for not showing up to board the plane.

I do not wish them death.

Had she used some common sense she would not have been in cuffs. Short of some sort of police misconduct, which I would certainly condemn, SHE put herself in cuffs for being an ass.

I can tell you that in ANY country losing control in the airport will lead to you being put in a small room and cuffed. Flex cuffs, cuffed to a table, or pistol whipped then cuffed vary from nation to nation.

[Exultant Democracy]

112. I'm sure your a Good Little Flyer, we should probably not question authority, your right.

It isn't like there is a pattern emerging or anything.

[Pavulon]

113. I managed to fly

all over the world, drunk, angry, sleepy and bored. Not that hard to control your actions. Really not to much to ask of adults. I have been screwed over by more airlines than I can count. Had to pay thousands for backup tickets, been bumped, had my shit lost, and never found the need to scream or curse the automaton whose job it is to tell me how the airline screwed me.

You have to try pretty hard to be arrested in an airport. General asshole behavior is the norm. She had to go the extra mile to get slapped in cuffs.

Sorry, I believe we are responsible for our actions.

[Exultant Democracy]

116. Yep and now she is dead, thats the price you pay for stepping out of line in Amerika.

[chelsea0011]

72. angry and irate=death?

I will hold judgment until the whole story comes out but just because someone becomes "angry and irate" shouldn't ever lead to arrest and death.

[Honeycombe8]

76. Maybe she had a heart attack. Running, yelling, angry....high blood pressure?

Could've been anything. I will wait for the investigation and autopsy before blaming others for arresting her. I believe she should've been arrested if she were interfering with the airport operations. She was told to step back, etc., etc. Instead, she has a temper tantrum and starts running around and screaming? Maybe she had a mental problem or was having a nervous breakdown. In any case, if she was out of control, she NEEDED to be taken into custody. Why the handcuffs were still on her in the cell, I don't know. Not enough info. How long she'd been in the cell, if she threatened to harm herself, etc.

[AnneD]

79. Sky Harbor and Homeland security have a checkered past....

A lawsuit was brought against the guards there because they were frisking an inordinate number of attractive women rather that a random folks and if memory serves, the lady suing won the case. Seems like they need to do some more house cleaning.

Mom lives in AZ and she complains about how bad it is there. I find this suspicious, but not surprising.

[bliss_eternal]

126. Interesting...

...I think I heard a bit about this, but it's vague. Was this a while back (the lawsuit)? I hope your mother doesn't have to travel a lot. :scared:

It's kind of problematic when you take any person and tell them--poof--you're an authority figure.

Some are willing and able to utilize wisdom, restraint and respect for others rights in such positions. Some people probably struggle with it all along. Others may see their position as an opportunity to be abusive and do so. :shrug: Human nature it seems.

[AnneD]

139. 32 women complain of groping, fondling during airport body searches

Tom Zoellner
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 7, 2002 12:00 PM


At least 32 female airline passengers have complained about being fondled and groped during random body searches at Sky Harbor International Airport and other airports across the nation.

In many of the reported incidents, male gate agents appear to be targeting solitary female travelers for the supposedly random pat-downs, which have become a feature of air travel since the Sept. 11 attacks.

There is no federal law that requires airlines to provide an employee of the same sex to conduct the searches. Passengers who try to complain find that the price of objection can be a missed flight.

"The more I protested the more he smirked," said Anita Lawrence, a 60-year-old real estate broker from north Scottsdale who said she was led behind a tall screen by a male employee before boarding an America West Airlines flight to Houston on Jan. 21.

<Interesting snip>
Arizona Attorney General Janet Napolitano is assembling a database of 32 aggrieved passengers who have come forward with stories of possible sexual abuse in airports in Arizona and elsewhere. One case involves a 12-year-old girl.

<more interesting snips>

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special42/articles/0207frisk07.html

The good news is that Janet Napolitano is now govenor of the great state of AZ. Does this help refress your memory?

[sarcasmo]

96. I would have been screaming too.

Why does one want to fly anymore. They treat us like criminals and herd us like animals. Wait, that's what they want to do. I guess nothing to see here.

[LisaL]

97. Cause it's the fastest way available to get from point A to point B.

[sarcasmo]

98. If you have to be there two hours prior to your flight and get harassed

I will drive.

[LisaL]

99. Yes, driving long distances is such a safe, stress free

past time.
:sarcasm:

[sarcasmo]

106. I drive for a living it's like riding a bike to me

[Robson]

121. Door to door time

I refuse to fly anymore unless the door (home) to door (destination point, not airport) time is at least 50% less. There are too many flight delays and other possibilities.

[Pavulon]

103. Bad Idea..

Screaming at a ticket agent or TSA will not resolve ANY problem you encounter in an airport. I used to fly all the time and never had the horror stories that make the news.

But if you fly you WILL miss flights, WILL get delayed, and WILL not always travel according to plan. That is reality. I can not tell you how many times the airlines messed up my trips.

Who knows the full story. Short of an ignored medical alert bracelet or misconduct that response is pretty normal for a person making a scene in an airport.

[sce56]

114. How about a face to go with this story! From Yahoo news

NEW YORK - A traveler who may have accidentally choked herself to death while handcuffed in an airport holding cell was a "wonderful" woman and mother, according to New York City's public advocate, who is her relative.

Carol Anne Gotbaum, 45, was arrested Friday at Sky Harbor International Airport in Phoenix after she became irate when gate crews refused to let her board a flight for which she was late, officials said.

"She was a wonderful mother; she was sweet and kind and loving," said public advocate Betsy Gotbaum, the woman's stepmother-in-law. "It's obviously very, very difficult for us; we are dealing with it as best we can. My No. 1 focus is those children and my stepson."

She also pleaded with the press for privacy.

The events that led to Gotbaum's death began when she became irate over not being allowed on a US Airways flight, though she was rebooked on a later flight, officials said.

Officers handcuffed her and took her to the holding room, where she kept screaming, authorities said. They checked on her when she became quiet and found her unresponsive, said Phoenix police Sgt. Andy Hill.

It appears Gotbaum may have tried to get out of her handcuffs, which ended up around her neck, Hill said. A medical examiner will determine the cause of death.

Neither a stun gun nor pepper spray was used on the woman, authorities said.

The New York City public advocate helps solve residents' problems with government and acts as a watchdog over city agencies.

[ShortnFiery]

118. It makes you wonder: Angry and Irate? Whose definition? nt

[Robson]

119. Sad but I'm going to reserve judgment

Since I wasn't there I'll withhold an opinion. It is very sad when something like this happens.

Did she deserve to be restrained and locked up? Some people do become overly belligerent when they are under stress and don't get their way. We have all seen people that will not accept a no answer when they believe they are correct and they can over-react.

That said....I do have major concerns that there have been too many over-reactions imo by law enforcement, airline employees and other authorities when customers (or even peaceful demonstrators) are perceived as questioning their authority. We may have also seen passengers that deserve to be cuffed and arrested when they act disorderly, such as urinating in the aisle, or doing other gross and disruptive misbehavior.

There has been a significant change in the airline industry in the way customers are now treated. I'd say "cattle" is more descriptive than "individual respect", and that will often cause paying customers to become irritated in a major way, and rightfully so. In any business the individual customer should be treated as being right, but the airlines have forgotten that.

With regard to her death it could have been a physiological reaction to the stress such as asthma attack, heart attack or stroke, or a result of tasering.

[bemildred]

132. I'm so glad I don't fly anymore.

You pay these assholes a bunch of money and they treat you like this.

[KayLaw]

136. I just don't believe it.

I did a Google search and glanced through the 500-plus articles and am glad she's from a well-connected family because I refuse to believe she strangle herself when her hands were in cuffs behind her. I'd like to hear witness accounts and see anyone act out a person strangling herself in such a manner. If your hands are behind you, bound by handcuffs, how do you manage to choke yourself to death with them

Any of you guys have handcuffs willing to do an experiment?

[MilesColtrane]

138. Try this.

From a standing position, fully squat down until you can stick your fingers under the soles of your feet. Or, get a small length of rope, stand on it, and grab it just on the outside of your feet with both hands.

Now pull tight with your arms. This pulls your knees and legs tightly up against you diaphragm and rib cage making it difficult to breathe.

(Maybe it's just me...beer belly.)

Throw in the fact that your heart and respiration rate are already racing because of screaming and the exertion of trying to get the cuffs around your feet.

I could see that making you pass out. I'm not sure about actually asphyxiating though.

[KayLaw]

140. That's not the way it's reported.

All reports have the hand cuffs up against her throat.

[MilesColtrane]

142. Indeed.

The stories I read yesterday just said "strangled" and "choked" which I incorrectly assumed to mean asphyxiated.


Those cops have some explaining to do.

[KayLaw]

141. And here's the latest link.

They put her in the room and left her for five or ten minutes and suddenly she was dead with her cuffed hands near her throat. B.S.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/a-new-yorkers-puzzling-death-in-phoenix/?hp

[Autobot77]

143. This is very suspicious

Especially considering the fact that she was irate and screaming. I've worked in customer service and have dealt with a lot of screaming abusive customers. I'll admit at times I though "I'd love to just shut them up". I wouldn't be surprised if someone at the airport got tired of her screaming, etc snapped and strangled her.

[Cronopio]

148. The Mr. Maimways on this thread would have you believe she choked on her tie.

And adults are always responsible when they're repressed, unless proven otherwise by a video or audio recording. Then it's up for debate.

It sad that the Voice of Big Brother has infiltrated DU threads. Considering the woman's in-law relationship (covered in another thread), her sudden death is suspicious, and should be, to anyone with two functioning brain cells.

[spotbird]

151. She was on her way to rehab

Lawyer: Woman who died at airport was on the way to alcohol rehab

PHOENIX - A lawyer for the family of a woman who died after being detained at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport says she was on her way to an alcohol rehabilitation program in Tucson.

Michael Manning says that Carol Anne Gotbaum's family in New York asked him to monitor the police investigation of her death.

Manning says that he'll watch the autopsy of Gotbaum's body and will conduct his own inquiry as to whether police followed proper procedure.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--airportdeath1001oct01,0,7848501.story

I do wonder why the TSA hasn't released the video of the incident. It should vincicate them quickly.

[KayLaw]

152. A new detail

Not only were her hands cuffed behind her but she was shackled to a table. Yet the police said she was able to strangle herself within five to ten minutes time!

[spotbird]

154. 5 foot 7 and 105 pounds

She didn't eat much.

[MilesColtrane]

153. I'm afraid they're going to find that she OD'd.

Acute cocaine intoxication....

[Catchawave]

155. Her behavior was certainly odd, here's another update:

http://www.kcci.com/news/14245016/detail.html

[spotbird]

156. Another strange statement

"According to Phoenix Police Sergeant Andy Hil, officers are prohibited from using cameras in holding cells, so they could not see what was going on inside the holding cell."

Prohibited by whom? That's bizarre.

[Cronopio]

158. And another one.

"Gotbaum was placed in an individual holding room by herself in handcuffs.

When officers outside the door did not hear her voice, they went in to check on her and found her unconscious."

Who told them they should leave a "hysterical" person alone in a room?

Murder or gross incompetence - you choose. We'll probably never know the who and why for sure, but a 5'7' 105-pound woman cuffed in the back and to a chair *physically couldn't* choke herself to death. No way, no how, and no argument accepted.

But I'm sure there's some magic bullet theory being cooked up as we speak.

[Orsino]

163. Video of the arrest won't vindicate them in the little matter of her death. n/t

[booley]

157. This part I dont' understand...

Hill said it appears Gotbaum may have tried to get out of her handcuffs, became tangled in the process and the cuffs ended up around her neck. A cause of death will be determined by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner.

Ok the article doesnt' seem to say if she had been handcuffed behind her back or in front.

My experience is that cops like to hand cuff with hands in back. So lets first assume that was the case and it was standerd cuffs.

And I have no idea how could get those cuffs around one's neck.

When a person tries to get out of cuffs like that they start by trying to get thier hands in front of them. And people do that by going around thier legs. I have never seen anyone who could go the other way becuase the shouldier blades get in the way.

Assuming the cuffs were in front doesnt' seem to work either. At that point, why would one put the cuffs around one's neck?

And even if they used cuffs with an extra long chain (possible though it seems unlikely) that stil doesnt' seem to explain it. Whether they were hehind her back (which would be dumb because the extra length would make going around the legs even easier) or already in front, i cant' see how someone could "accidently" strangle themselves.

Something just doesn't seem right. I am not saying she was murdered (I am hardly in a position to know) but the explanation doesnt' make sense.

[Cronopio]

159. If the explanation doesn't make sense, what would make sense?

1. Murder.
2. Pre-existing medical condition, which translates to incompetence on the part of the cops because they should have suspected that.
3. Suicidal == incompetence for the same reason.
4. Drug reaction (basically #2) == again, incompetence.

The autopsy report will not change the fact that, because she was under arrest, the arresting officers are ultimately responsible for her well- being while she was incarcerated. A loss of freedom automatically means a loss of ability to look after her own interest, so that becomes the responsibility of the officers.

Murder or involuntary manslaughter due to incompetence are the only two possibilities given the reports so far.

[KayLaw]

160. The Newsday article says back.

Both the police and attorney say her hands were behind her back.

[booley]

170. And if they are the normal police cuffs that I have seen

then i can't figure out how one could get that around thier neck, much less in a way that would strangle.

Unless this woman wa s a mutant contortionist...(not meanign to sound disrepsectful)

It might be possible. But I cant' see how.

(and yes, i have had experience with this sort of thing..)

[Orsino]

162. We know now that the method of restraint used is potentially lethal.

The responsibility for her death lies with her captors, and with the system that allowed them to be so negligent.

[Pavulon]

164. Cuffs, physical restraint?

no those are not lethal. God knows how many people are arrested world wide who do not die from being cuffed of physically restrained.

The responsibility for her death is her own.

[Orsino]

165. Oh, good. If they're not potentially lethal, then she isn't really dead!

That's a relief.

[Pavulon]

166. Toast is potentially lethal....

come on.

[Orsino]

169. Nope. She was left unattended because of "come on"...

...and she's dead because of it. When you immobilize someone, you accept responsibility for their well-being.

She may have earned the restraint, but not the death, which was caused by negligence.