Secessionists meeting in Tennessee

[RamboLiberal]

Source: Yahoo News/AP

In an unlikely marriage of desire to secede from the United States, two advocacy groups from opposite political traditions — New England and the South — are sitting down to talk.

Tired of foreign wars and what they consider right-wing courts, the Middlebury Institute wants liberal states like Vermont to be able to secede peacefully.

That sounds just fine to the League of the South, a conservative group that refuses to give up on Southern independence.

"We believe that an independent South, or Hawaii, Alaska, or Vermont would be better able to serve the interest of everybody, regardless of race or ethnicity," said Michael Hill of Killen, Ala., president of the League of the South.

Separated by hundreds of miles and divergent political philosophies, the Middlebury Institute and the League of the South are hosting a two-day Secessionist Convention starting Wednesday in Chattanooga.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071003/ap_on_re_us/secessionist_movement_1

[dmallind]

1. Interesting idea

If Vermont had a reasonable number of jobs in my field I may just move there if they keep talking about this.

On another thread a poster had an interesting idea - that any northern states that secede should petition Canada for annexation instead rather than go for independence per se.

Probably pie in the sky of course, but an intriguing notion.

[Andy Canuck]

6. Nice thought and love to have Vermont, but

I have a feeling the guns of Washington might have something to say about it. Though we may be a mighty country we are aren't prepared for a war with the US. But we did set fire to the White House during the War of 1812. That and Vimy Ridge are our two great military accomplishments we Canadians brag about. (Technically it was the British in 1812, as we didn't become a nation until 1867, but we blindly ignore that fact.)

[happyslug]

52. Yes Canadian Historians like to ignore the Five Generals and 50,000 Canadians in the Union Army

Depending on how you count the Canadian militia, more men were serving in the Union army between 1861 and 1865 then in the Canadian Militia at the same time (The Canadian Militia was reformed at least twice during the US Civil War, to make the units smaller and more reliable i.e. more loyal to Britain, the US and Britain came close to war at least once during the US Civil War).

As one Historian/Geographer/Economist told me years ago, the Great Lakes and the Mississippi Drainage system is the largest single Geographic/Economic area in the world. It competes with the China Proper and its two rivers and Russia with its massive Rivers Systems for that honor. All three areas have an tendency to come under one Government for the rivers tend to bring people together for trade and thus the need for one Government to resolve internal disputes is needed.

This centralized Government was provided by New France in the Colonial period, The United States after the British drove out the French (Canada is only Politically independent do to the lack of a US Fleet during the US Revolution AND extensive British spending afterward). The Canadian Adoption of the Dollar in 1858 showed that even the Canada had become economically part of the US. The fact 50,000 Canadians thought enough to enlist in the Union army to save the Union shows how much "New France" still existed in the 1860s as a Economic/Geographic unit. Since then Canada and the US have become even more intertwined. Legally Canada and the US are two independent countries, but even the Soviet Union studies them together as single economic/military entity. i.e. New France still lives, through few of us Speak French.

As to the "other areas" of North America. All are much smaller and except for Mexico to close to be independent from the Giant that was first call "New France". These Include , New England, New York City, The Atlantic Provinces of Canada. Newfoundland. The American East Coast (New York to Georgia), Florida, The Rio Grande River (Through East Texas is really part of the Mississippi river system), The Colorado River and Columbia/Snake River Systems, California and of course Mexico (Which is the Largest area out side of "New France" and the furtherest away). Can these areas be Independent? Yes, but like Cuba "New France" will view each of them as a potential base for some foreign country to use as a base to attack "New France". Furthermore each will be drawn to the huge market size of "New France" and will want to be part of it (With the Exception of Mexico do to is size and distance from "New France"). Over the next couple of thousand years I can foresee different countries forming up in what in now North America, each of the above maybe even independent at one time or another (like Canada is today), but overall economics will drive them to unity (Like Economics have driven Canada and the US into Economic Unity). Mexico will stay independent (To far away) and at various times, the Rio Grande and Colorado River Systems will be part of Mexico, Part of "New France" and at times Independent Border Countries dependent on both and independent of both (Like Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland in relations to Germany and France). Geography and Economics trumps any ideas of secession. You may see it over time, but it will NOT last.

[Thothmes]

56. Proud

IMO you should also be proud of your accomplishments at Normandy the ETO in general. Also didn't your soldiers bear the brunt of the Dieppe Raid casualties?

[Fovea]

11. In the 1850s in Kansas

after the Kansas Nebraska act, the south and the north sent immigrants with rifles to create a majority in Kansas. It was ugly.
The first vote was pro-south, and was fraudulent. The second vote was pro union, and the violence began.

I have been thinking that the United States isn't really that united anymore, and the exurban/urban divide is even greater.

But no matter how you slice the cake, California is its own, and Texas. Alaska and Hawaii have a lot in common, as does Wash/Oregon. The deep south from carolinas to Arkansas, Oklahoma and the southwest. The north-east, the northern midwest and the Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, (perhps the Dakotas) and perhaps Ill block. Ohio, Mich.

I think we are heading toward a new confederacy of states, with about the same level of federal standarization as the old austro-hungarian empire.
I do not see a strong federal military remaining.

My point, not well made is that we could avoid the violence and have a relatively amicable break up. Maybe 8 smaller states remain.

Calfornia, Tejas, Jesusland (deep south), Urbania (NE states), MidWestia, GreatPlaindom, Oceania (AK,HI,OR,WA), Thermia (SWest).
It doesnt have to be Civil War Version 2.0, which well may not have a winner.

[Andy Canuck]

15. Isn't that the eventual conclusion

of a federal government that doesn't believe in governance? A federal government that devolves its powers to the state and municipal levels is eventually going to wither away to the new regional powers.

[UncleSepp]

27. I always wondered about that "drowned in a bathtub" thing

What then, after the federal government is so small it can be drowned in a bathtub? What happens after it is drowned? Anarchy, or devolution of power to state and local levels? And after devolution of power to the state level, is it the state level government that becomes the new target? It seems to be a paradox, that those who seem to be the most authoritarian shout the loudest about what ends up to be anarchy.

To be fair, I don't think they've thought the end goal through. I think the road goes to neo-feudalism, where a very few people will control nearly all the capital through a corporate layer of abstraction. Traditional responsibilities of governments, such as military, fire, police, infrastructure, education, and postal delivery will be just more services sold through the corporate abstraction layer. The ordinary people will work under all this, indebted to something that looks like a government and acts like the company store.

[Andy Canuck]

30. I agree it is

the elimination of government so as to be able to have unfettered access to resources, capital and commodities. The thinking is "people be damned, we have the right to have whatever we want." The irony, and tragedy, is that the downsizing of a regulating government over resources and business manifests in a need for an upsizing of government of regulating it's citizenry.

[Donnachaidh]

33. Already there in the whole country

"I think the road goes to neo-feudalism, where a very few people will control nearly all the capital through a corporate layer of abstraction."

Already there.

[HereSince1628]

16. Check out the Wiki entry on 9 nations of America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations_of_North_America

[Andy Canuck]

19. No way...

Detroit is going to be my capital, surely Michael Moore will push for Toronto or Windsor as a capital city.

[dogfacedboy]

53. Chicago or Toronto would be the correct choice for a capitol.

I would have no problem with this "Nine Nations" set-up. As a Chicagoan, I have much more in common with a Canadian from Toronto or Ottawa than an American from Houston or Atlanta.

[Posteritatis]

81. Thanks for pointing that out!

I am wracked with intriguement, and enjoyed the last book by Garreau that I picked up (Radical Evolution). Ima go look for that one.

[jdlh8894]

20. A little levity

Goggle is probably overloaded w/people looking for Kansas-Nebraska Act.

[here_is_to_hope]

31. Whoa there, Oregon and Washington?

Not quite, we Oregonians consider Washington to be "California Part Two" due to the high taxes and lack of foresight concerning growth and infrastructure.
Not wise to lump us in with that lot.
We will take Alaska and Hawaii though!:hi:

[Quantess]

76. Washington's taxes aren't that much higher than Oregon.

Just very different.
And yes, WA has more sprawl. But isn't Oregon also faced with the risk of poor land use, with your Measure 37?

Just trying to be fair. I've lived in both states. The people of Washington are very similar to the people of Oregon. I will give you this, though: traffic sucks a lot worse in Washington!

[semillama]

37. Have you read The Nine Nations of North America?

Same concept, expanded to fill a book. Published back in the 80s so not up to date but still pretty interesting.

[LanternWaste]

80. I'd rather struggle to keep us together...

I'd rather struggle to keep us together, than give up and run away to the Texas Republic of Fantasyland. I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that so many people are so willing to give up so easily. The U.S. has been through worse crises than this before and has come strong.

As for me, I think the country is more united than it ever had been before, the only difference this time is that it's not good copy for a few of the loudest mouths in radio and on TV.

[Donnachaidh]

32. now that's a switch

Ben Franklin and others who owned land in Nova Scotia way back when really, REALLY wanted the area as the 14th colony.

I think Vermont, or any other state would be better off with Canada, especially in light of the direction of our government now.

[druidqueen]

38. Secession

It has been mentioned here in Maine that we should become part of Atlantic Canada. Believe me it works for me. I can't take any more.....war, sCHIP veto....lies....murder....obstructing justice....NO more, I SAY!!!

[mikeargo]

51. Welcome to DU!

Can New Hampshire come with you?

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. I expect groups in Hawaii would be interested in participating

There are several groups in Hawaii who have never accepted the overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani and its "annexation" (read: conquest) by the United States. If any state has legitimate grounds for secession, it is Hawaii.

[KamaAina]

26. I'm actually surprised that some of the independence groups aren't there

notably the Nation of Hawai'i, led by Dennis "Bumpy" Kanahele, which has been pushing for full independence, rather than Federal recognition (as in the "Akaka bill" that obstructionist repukes keep holding up :grr: ) for years.

http://www.hawaii-nation.org

(Irony alert: Kanahele is presently set up on some acreage in rural O'ahu -- that he leases from the State of Hawai'i, a creation of the Federal government!)

edit: spelling

[Chovexani]

43. That was one of the most shameful moments in American history

And that's saying a lot.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. I've harbored suspicions that to many, Appomattox wasn't the last word

on the Civil War. And here we are.

[Marrah_G]

4. I would like to see New England or the North East Secede

I really, honestly would.

It will happen eventually. Even Rome fell. We are to large with to many socially different regions to stay part of one large government. When it was an alliance of states it was different. Now it is Mostly Federal and State rights are an after thought.

Example: Gays can Marry in Mass. The entire North east (almost) has some form of Civil unions or will soon (Rhode Island for example). The Federal Government may take away the right of our people to decide what the hell is right for us and knowing the people here it is not going over well.

Every year I have less and less desire to travel outside the North East. It's like going to a foreign country and in that case I'd rather see Europe.

Call me a Yankee snob if you want, but that is my honest opinion.

[bigworld]

5. I'm a yankee

and I approve of this message.

[Marrah_G]

8. Hi Neighbor!!

Everything from PA on up.

What the heck would it be named though?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. The United States of America.

The other guys can be the Confederate States of America.

[LiberalEsto]

14. Maryland too!

We're strongly Democrat and liberal, except for the most western and southern counties, Those can go back to Virginia. I'd love to move to Vermont, but I couldn't handle such a short gardening/growing season.

[momster]

35. Yeppers!

Take Maryland North! We were on the Union side in the War...you know "THE* War. Don't make us go with the South (they don't like us). But the Eastern Shore can definitely return to Virginia. They've been threatening to do it for years anyway.

[bikebloke]

42. Northern Virginia

Would have to go north.

[jdlh8894]

22. The States of Northern Agression? n/t

[Marrah_G]

23. awwww

Still bitter, eh?

:wave:

[jdlh8894]

25. No,not really

Just trying to make a point.

[Marrah_G]

34. Ah my mistake

I assumed you were engaging in some friendly terasing and responded in kind.

[Chalco]

41. Please include Maryland. I can't take it anymore!!!!!!! nt

[Ian David]

59. I agree with you on all counts there.

Although, to be fair, I was treated well by everyone I met in The South, so long as they weren't behind the wheel of a car.

[Marrah_G]

74. It's not that the people aren't nice

I just do not want red state social values forced upon me and my children. I like the strange mix of fiscal conservativeness and social liberalness we have here. I don't plan on losing it because Joe Evangelist has a hard on for people he thinks are "Sinners".

[goodgd_yall]

7. Start stockpiling those guns now n/t

[atreides1]

9. Some disturbing comments

If allowed to go their own way, New Englanders "probably would allow abortion and have gun control," Hill said, while Southerners "would probably crack down on illegal immigration harder than it is being now."

Sale said the League of the South "has not done or said anything racist in its 14 years of existence," and that the Southern Poverty Law Center is not credible.


I happen to think that the SPLC has more credibility then Kirpatrick Sale.



The League of the South is a Southern nationalist organization whose ultimate goal is "a free and independent Southern republic." The group defines the Southern United States as the states that made up the former Confederacy, plus Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland. While political independence ranks highly among the group's goals, it is also a religious and social movement, advocating a return to a more traditional, conservative Christian-oriented Southern culture.

The issue of race has become a source of controversy and dispute within the LoS, and in groups like Second Vermont Republic which has members loosely affiliated with it. LoS President Michael Hill has argued for the centrality of Christian white men in the movement: "But let us never deny (for the sake of pleasing the implacable Cultural Marxists) that we, the descendants of white, European Christians, are central to a movement to preserve and advance a particular civilization, cultural inheritance, and physical place." Hill has also advocated the ideology of kinism, and would outlaw racial intermarriage and non-white immigration, expel all “aliens” (including Jews and Arabs), and limit the right to vote to landowning males over the age of twenty-one.

The League of the South Board of Directors in 2005 issued a "Statement on 'Racism'" stating in part: “We believe that Christianity and social order require that all people, regardless of race, must be equal before the law. We do not believe that the law should be used to persecute, oppress, or favour any race or class. We believe that the only harmony possible between the races, as between all natural differences among human beings, begins in submitting to Jesus Christ's commandment to 'love our neighbours as ourselves.' That is the world we envision and work for."

During the 2006 First North American Secessionist Convention when the issue of the League of the South and racism was raised, Don Kennedy, identified as ”a leader of the League of the South,” stated: "How can you believe in liberty and discriminate against your neighbor? Equality before the law is something we want, and we're on the record for that."

Nothing even slightly racist about this organization, right? As for its 2006 declaration, well we all know that the Repukes always talk about their "big tent", it turns out that it was all talk and no action.

Sorry, but if something like this were to happen it wouldn't be too long before The League of the South wanted

[Doctor_J]

29. But if they have their own nation, they can be as racist as they want

:shrug:

[NorthernSpy]

61. yes, kids: THIS is how decades of loyal black support for progressives is repaid...

With a shrug and a quick sell-out.

Well, once the South splits off, they can be as racist as they want to be. Shrug.



Absolutely typical.

[Doctor_J]

67. au contraire

My point is that the loyal black (and Latino and gay and other minority) support for progressives will be repaid by welcoming them to our blue nation. If the new "conservative" nation doesn't want to treat them as equal, and they want to come and live with us, that's our gain, and their loss.

[kineneb]

71. League of the South sounds like a western Saudi Arabia

will they also take away women's drivers' licenses?

It would rapidly devolve into a feudal, third-world country that becomes the laughing stock of the rest of the world. The slaves and poor blacks were the only element that kept the Confederacy afloat. Without immigrants or other "cheap" labor, they would soon go under. Who would clean their toilets?:evilgrin:

[dbackjon]

10. Any respect, credibility the NE people had is now gone

Meeting with the racists from the League of the South sealed it for me. They are all a bunch of crackpots, and disgust me. Anyone that would give the LOS the time of day is as bad as them.

[Ian David]

57. When I was in High School, the KKK had a meeting with a Black Separatist Group in D.C...

in the same hotel where schools from around the country were meeting for The Model United Nations.

[lapfog_1]

12. I'm all in favor of a PSA (Pacific States of America)

California, Oregon, Washington, Hawaii and Alaska (if they want in), even add BC and Baja California to the mix.

Trade would be pacific rim oriented.

We get to keep the military assets based in these states.

I think San Francisco would be a great capital city... although others would be fine.

Just speculation... sedition being a crime and all.

[Le Taz Hot]

69. Yes!!!!!

Oh please Oh please Oh please Oh please Oh please Oh please Oh please

'Cept nix on S.F. for the capitol. In fact, ANY place except S.F.

[jdlh8894]

17. As a friend used to say-"OK Fine!"

Tear down ALL roads leading into and out of the those states(not to mention aircraft landing or taking off)Then see how long they can live without! JMO

[dmallind]

21. Why?

Have we torn down all roads leading to Canada and stopped flights going there? The idea is to trade with non-antagonistic foreign countries, and in the extremely unlikely circumstance Vermont or the deep South became one why should they be any different?

Besides a quick look at this tells us which states would be better and which worse off seceding, at least in purely fiscal terms. (a bit outdated, but unlikely to shift all that massively I would guess)




On further review - here's a more up to date one from 2004

[jdlh8894]

24. Don't think you got my point.

You secede from the Union, you lose ALL federal funds for highways,airports,etc. . So as a state you are on your own.

[dmallind]

36. that makes sense but

we still wouldn't have to destroy infrastructure or cut off communication (or frankly even funding as we do give SOME foreign aid if not a whole lot relatively speaking).

Personally I don't think this is necessary or even plausible, but I find it an interesting topic nonetheless.

[semillama]

39. Once again, the cartographers overlook the UP in depicting Michigan!

One of many reasons several residents of the UP (or "Yoopers") are in favor of secession from Michigan.

Or, as a cartoon from www.toothpastefordinner.com puts it:

[The2ndWheel]

18. Why does the world have to be one-size-fits-all?

Because too much diversity creates conflict. Conflict with the power of the state and the corporation working together in order to expand means large scale conflict.

States, like any other centrally organized institution, require growth. If they don't grow, they stagnate and then die. In 2007, there is no more room to grow in terms of land. That's a big problem. That's why the EU will eventually form, an African Union, and Asian Union, South America, etc, in the same way the US came to be. The reason for that, in my mind, is because each of the 6.5+ billion people on this planet are not completely integrated into it. That's where states can still grow, increasing the amount of human energy within it. Yes, that will help to give us, as a species, an even larger impact on the environment, but that train left the station a long time ago, and there isn't much we're going to do about that.

As long as we have cheap enough energy, and an increasing global population(if we get all 6.5 billion fully integrated and assimilated, we're going to need more people to grow once we hit that number), we'll be fine. Everything will increasingly become the same. There won't be any difference between here or there, which means less conflict. Again, we won't have much of a habitat, but by then we will have increased our ability to mold it to fit our(human) needs, and only our needs.

There is no opting out of it. We will either have the energy to continue building into one global system, or we won't have the energy required. There won't be a choice. Some people won't be able to live this way, while some other people live that way, if we have the needed energy. Everyone will live the same way in service to the productive capacity of the machine. However, if entropy starts to win, and we can't fight against it, then it'll be a different world.

Neither option leads to perfection. There will be problems no matter what. Should be fun.

[Doctor_J]

28. Woo-hoo!

Hurry up, and take the rest of the Bible Belt South with them. I foresee a blue nation with health care, honest, accountable government, and real media. If we can get them to create their own nation, there will be no need for Vermont to secede.

[Solly Mack]

40. I was considering a return to the states...but uh...maybe not

[Chovexani]

44. How about these bastards just get raptured already

And save us all the trouble. I like Vermont too much to lose it. :)

[martymar64]

45. I think it's a terrific idea

A Pacific nation (CA,OR,WA) could do great things. It would get to keep all those federal $ that it sinks into the rest of the country. All citizens of those states could come home from Iraq and Afghanistan. We could normalize relations with Cuba. We could legalize marijuana and end the war on drugs. We could legalize abortion and gay marriage.

The rest of the country can go it's own way. The south can turn into the christian version of iran or saudi ariabia like they want to, although they'll likely erupt into warfare as the racial issues come back to the forefront. New England and the upper midwest can go their own ways as well.

COUNT ME IN!!!

[depakid]

47. Subsidizing the poor Southern states is only going to get worse

because the vast majority of their sprawling suburbs and service economies aren't sustainable in the face of rising oil prices. I fully expect to see more regional integration in coming decades- because, among other things, the North West doesn't share many common interests with and certainly not the values of the South and lower Midwest.

[Buns_of_Fire]

46. On behalf of the Commonwealth of Virginia, I hereby declare war on Canada

What, Canada's bigger than Virginia?

Oh. Okay then. We surrender.

You guys can come and take us over, now.

[gtar100]

65. LOL - Me too!! On behalf of Colorado, I surrender to Canada

[KansDem]

48. Permit me to post this again. I'm sure many DUers have read it already.

As a former Californian, I find this "letter" hilarious.

Dear Red States:

We're ticked off at the way you've treated California and we've decided we're leaving.

We intend to form our own country and we're taking the other Blue States with us.

In case you aren't aware that includes Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and all the Northeast.

We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation and especially to the people of the new country of New California.

To sum up briefly:

You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.

We get stem cell research and the best beaches.

We get Elliot Spitzer. You get Ken Lay.

We get the Statue of Liberty. You get OpryLand.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss.

We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.

Please be aware that Nuevo California will be pro choice and anti war and we're going to want all our citizens back from Iraq at once. If you need people to fight ask your evangelicals. They have kids they're apparently willing to send to their deaths for no purpose and they don't care if you don't show pictures of their children's caskets coming home.

We wish you success in Iraq and hope that the WMDs turn up but we're not willing to spend our resources in Bush's Quagmire.

With the Blue States in hand we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90% of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the US low sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

With the Red States you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

We're taking the good pot too. You can have that dirt weed they grow in Mexico.

Sincerely,
Author Unknown in New California.

:rofl:

[dogfacedboy]

55. No fan of the region here, but KY grows some mighty fine weed. n/t

[JNelson6563]

60. Perfect.

I love it! :toast:

[kineneb]

73. yes!

California gets back (last I read) about 81 cents of each dollar paid in federal taxes. I want my 19 cents back.

NorCal native.

[KamaAina]

49. Robert Heinlein foresaw this in "Friday"

it took place in a North America composed of the fascist Chicago Imperium (where they were based), the Atlantic Union (most of the original 13), the California Confederacy (included Ore. and Wash.), British Canada, Quebec, and even Vegas Free State, whose "megabucks" were the only hard currency around.

[Trillo]

50. Curious tactic.

I could be wrong, but it seems like succeeding would snip the Federal Government's debt-based umbilical cord, and would likely repudiate all debts to same going forward. The succeeded state would need their own currency.

If enough states succeeded, could the U.S. simply cease to exist as a financial and corporate entity? Seems likely.

That might create a population migration, as citizens of other, non-succeeded states attempt to immigrate to the succeeded state, and thus repudiate their portion of the Federal Debt -- which has swelled enormously under Bush.

[Ian David]

58. You bring up a good point. Which can only mean that...

... in order for the federal government to allow a state to peacefully secede, this would have to be part of the negotiations.

"Yeah, your state can secede, but you have to agree to be responsible for X amount of the national debt... or pay off X share of the debt before you can leave."

[dogfacedboy]

54. I would have no problem with states like AL and MS leaving

the US. While I'm sure there are some good folks in some areas, both of those states are 3rd rate shit holes in my opinion. I've spent quite a bit of time in both states as I have relatives all across both. Some of these relatives are fine, educated, productive people. The others are drug and alcohol addicted, lazy, worthless white trash. They sponge off of the US taxpayers, and then bitch, bitch, bitch about what they believe to be wrong with the US.

[Bridget Burke]

63. Not just "white trash" in those states.

There are quite a few African Americans.

But you'd LOVE to be rid of them, too.

[Trillo]

72. I've been seeing that meme here on DU the last couple of days....

There are "fine, educated, productive people" versus "drug and alcohol addicted, lazy, worthless" people.

So I guess if you're not educated, you're worthless, at least according to that poster. If you're poor for any reason, you're just a lazy drug addict.

Ain't the War on Drugs grand?

Perhaps it should be renamed the War on Citizens.

To contrast this addled perception with the esteemed and "fine, educated, productive people", there was that story posted the other day about the Air Force and a 13K per month contract that required NO WORK for the contractor, Charles D. Riechers. I suppose this was one of the "fine, educated, productive" persons that the poster refers to who are are in contrast to others 'less educated' and "worthless", 'cause clearly, Mr. Riechers was worthmore.

[dogfacedboy]

79. Go back, and actually read my post.

I was referring to my alcohol and drug addicted, lazy, worthless RELATIVES. These are people I know personally, so I know from where I speak. Same thing with the educated, productive people I referred to. That being said, I have also noticed that those who live around these two groups of family members exhibit the same lifestyles, repectively. I also never said that being poor makes one lazy and drug addicted, as you're suggesting here in your reply.

Have a good weekend! Seriously!

[dogfacedboy]

78. Your speculation is incorrect.

You don't know me, so don't try to brand me as racist.

[QC]

62. If the South secedes, will the carpetbaggers have to leave Florida?

That might be enough to make me go along with the deal. Imagine, Florida without loud, trashy, entitled people from Lawn Guyland, Wiscaaaaaansin, Joizy, etc.

[bigworld]

64. I like where this thread is going

... it's opened up some real interesting discussion, and there seems to be a lot of interest in an idea like this. Aside from the Middlebury Institute, is anyone else seriously studying this?

It would be better for the world...you think a small power (like the South or the Middle Atlantic States of America) would be attacking Iraq or Iran?

It would prove to be more representative for voters, too. I know that as a Pennsylvanian, I have a lot more in common with people in NY, in MA, in NH (or Ontario) than I do with the folks in Alabama or Texas. I don't hate southerners, they're just different, with their own traditions, and we'll both be happier if we're not trying to shove our ideas down each others' throats.

Hey, 20 years ago, people in Yugoslavia never thought they'd be breaking up. Nor did the Soviets. I really can see it happening here.

// I nominate "Pennsylvania Polka" as our new national anthem

[tom_paine]

66. This is an idea who's time may have come

Back in the days when the Old American Republic was a force for Liberty vs. Tyranny, I would say that balkanization was a terrible thing for suggesting that such a Beacon of Freedom be dismantled.

Yes, yes, I am well aware of what we did in Iran, Guatemala, Chile and others...I am talking about in the balance relative to other large nations, good and bad being included.

Now that Imperial Amerika is rapidly rising to the title of Greatest Threat to World Peace and Greatest Threat to Liberty, maybe balkanization is as good an idea NOW as it was a bad idea in 1861.

I don't have a firm opinion on this, so I am merely articulating the "pro-secesh" argument from an intelligent perspective, and as I consider this point it is quite simple and powerful in it's idea.

[icymist]

82. Everyone is forgetting about the huge debt owed to China.

If the US starts breaking apart, would not China dump the US dollar and toss the entire group of States into chaos?

[Taverner]

68. If the South seceedes, we can stop paying them subsidies, right?

And they can go starve on their own dime :)

Seriously - I like the idea of an independant California

[Prophet 451]

70. Great!

Sounds good to me: The South secedes. The worthwhile Southerners move to the north. The South almost certainly becomes a fundementalist (Christian) theocracy and changes it's name to Jesusland. The North carries on much as it has.

[BornagainDUer]

75. JESUSLAND!!

Check out these pics for seceding.


http://images.google.com/images?q=Jesusland!&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

[IndianaGreen]

77. It was the US Constitution which held our Republic together. We have neither now!

Who wants to be part of the most hated nation on this planet? Let Vermont secede!