Turkey blasts Armenian genocide bill

[rodeodance]

Source: ap




Turkey blasts Armenian genocide bill

By C. ONUR ANT, Associated Press Writer Thu Oct 11, 7:25 AM ET

ISTANBUL, Turkey - Turkey swiftly condemned a House panel's approval of a bill describing the World War I-era mass killings of Armenians as genocide, and newspapers blasted the measure on their front pages Thursday.


The House Foreign Affairs Committee passed the bill Wednesday by a 27-21 vote despite intense lobbying by Turkish officials. The committee's vote was a triumph for well-organized Armenian-American interest groups who have lobbied Congress for decades to pass a resolution. President Bush warned that it could harm U.S.-Turkish relations, already stretched by accusations that Washington is unwilling to help Ankara crack down on Kurdish rebels based in Iraq.

"Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States have once again sacrificed important matters to petty domestic politics despite all calls to common sense," President Abdullah Gul said late Wednesday.

Armenian President Robert Kocharian welcomed the vote, saying: "We hope this process will lead to a full recognition by the United States of America ... of the genocide."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_us_genocide;_ylt=AklSYOC7NB5.mRcVXXGuYphg.3QA

---

Photo at story site:

Picture from 1915 shows Turkish soldiers standing next to hanged Armenians. US lawmakers defied strident warnings by President George W. Bush by voting Wednesday to label the Ottoman Empire's World War I massacre of Armenians as "genocide" sparking condemnation from Turkey(AFP/CRDA/File)
A

[bigworld]

1. Genocide or not, why is the US getting involved?

This didn't have anything to do with the US and it's just opening a can of worms.

[BearSquirrel2]

2. Denial of genocide ...

Denial of genocide is the same thing as promoting genocide. It says others will look the other way.

All the bill does is call a spade a spade. It's akin to saying that Taiwan is an independent nation. This bill is a great way of sticking a needle in Bush's side. It puts him in a really nasty position and makes it harder to conduct his war. At the same time, he'd be hard pressed to defend this publicly and it would be really easy to label him a Hitler for denying a genocide condition.

And how about the Senate. Imagine the campaign ads:

"Rick Santorum says that killing 1,000,000 people isn't genocide. But he believes that letting the brain-dead rest in peace is murder. Rick Santorum isn't for the living, he's for Zombies. Don't vote for Rick Santorum, he eats brains!!!"

OK, so I took comedic license. And I have no idea whether he is up for election ... however you get my point. This is a position that is impossible to defend if only the Democrats would attack. It's like trying to defend a vote against the condemnation of apartheid.

[Jacobin]

20. Uhem, cough

I'm trying to locate the congressional resolution damning Americans for destroying the Indians and stealing their land.

Link?

While you're at it, link for congressional condemnation of Israel in 1948 to present for stealing Palestinian lands and running a million people out of their own country.

:eyes:

[BearSquirrel2]

27. Who's house is it?

How could you with a straight face compare the eviction of native peoples to the outright slaughter of millions? Israel has the capability to kill every man women and child in Palestine. They do not. There is a restraint there of a morality. Perhaps it does not rise to your level of sensibility. But it is there nonetheless.

There is not BAD and GOOD. There are lots of shades in between. There are no BAD people who never do good things and no GOOD people who never do bad things.

[Zhade]

36. EVICTION? Try systemic murder.

In my own family line, at that.

Disgusting.

[BearSquirrel2]

53. Hmmm....

I think you're comparing 500 years of gradual encroachment and skirmish wars to the deliberate eradication of 1.5 million people over a period of a few years. There are no "Armenian Reservations".

What happened to the Natives of North America is quite lamentable. What happened to their predecessors is equally lamentable. The US committed a good deal of atrocity in the process, the biggest of which in my opinion would be the forced evictions of the Cherokee from Georgia to Oklahoma. All that is a drop compared to the swiftness and bloodiness of the Armenian genocide and Hitler's Jewish genocide.

The settlement of the West by Europeans was largely an issue of civilizational collision. The Europeans were much better able to utilize the land. Western civilization won. It's a story that has played out across the world, not just in the United States.

Archeology has found traces of distinct peoples in North America that preceded what we know as the Native Americans. The Native Americans out competed them. There is a difference between this and outright wholesale genocide.

[Alameda]

56. ummm....small pox contaminated blankets?

It seems you only see one situation that you feel deserve the title genocide? What about the African Americans? And....the American Indians were a victim of a long genocidal campaign, well documented. Remember "a only good Indian is a dead Indian"

[JustAnotherGen]

67. I respectfully

Disagree with the idea that America did not commit genocide against the REAL Americans. Please go back and understand WHY it took America so long to ratify the Genocide Convention to understand that we got a free pass on that one. Look up the name Lemkin and the history of how he coined the word Genocide then how very long it took to get America on board. A great book to read is A Problem From Hell by Samantha Power.


I can't believe I just read that at DU. Free Repugnant - yes. But not DU.

[Jacobin]

59. I'm amused

At how easy it is for some to dismiss the slaughter of millions of American Indians (give em smallpox blankets) as merely 'troublesome', while the slaughter of a whiter race is determined to be a mortal sin.

Maybe amused is the wrong word.

[BearSquirrel2]

66. At the time ...

At the time the germ theory of disease wasn't even accepted. The people in question wouldn't have known HOW to infect blankets with Smallpox reliably.

The process of European takeover of North America was driven by the need for arable/ranchable land and the relative freedom that came from farming. To that extent Native Americans came into conflict with a refugee population who despite their status possessed superior knowledge of agriculture and metal working. The people who settled the west were NOT empowered by European or even American society. They were the dispossessed and downtrodden.

Those folks provided needed food and material supplies for the East. Of course the US government had a real interest in protecting them from the people they were gradually displacing.

I am not a gung ho' conservative, I'm a liberal. I know that manifest destiny had a real cost that we Europeans did not really feel. But at the same time I realize that this was an unavoidable conclusion and the general tell of history. No doubt the American Natives got the short end of the stick. They have also been abused in their treaty arrangements for over 150 years. But at the end of the day there are reservations which are semi-sovereign lands.

You're trying to reduce the world to black and white the way that conservatives do. I think that is a very dangerous thing. I reflects a lack of deep understanding that we often call "nuance". Yes there is a difference between what the Turks and Hitler did in a handful of years and what progressive waves of European outcasts did over 500 years.

[JustAnotherGen]

68. Um

Wasn't Hitler a European? Just like Americans of European descent?

[okojo]

17. Re: Genocide or not, why is the US getting involved

The US is getting involved because the Armenian Americans are trying to show their politcal power. I don't think there is even a resolution every passed in the Congress condemning Germany for the Holocaust, or Cambodia for the Genocide there. From growing up in Southern California, where there is a sizable Armenian Community, there was always some sort of attack on the Turkish Consulate, or Turkish Banks.

However, Turkey has taken a very hardline approach to all this for years. There should be some sort of reconciliation, or something to try to come to a consensus. It wasn't Turkey that the genocide happened but the Ottoman Empire, which remnants of the Quagmire in Iraq are still playing a part, given they used the Sunni Arabs to run the place back then as well.

[Junkdrawer]

32. Read this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2024996&mesg_id=2024996

[Le Taz Hot]

44. Well, actually, it did.

The U.S. did not participate in the actual genocide but millions of Armenians immigrated to the U.S. (and other countries as well) as a result. Their choice was to leave their homeland or be killed. Many of those Armenians settled in the San Joaquin Valley, my home, and this area has been greatly enriched because of it. They were extremely instrumental in making the Valley the rich agricultural area it is today.

[bdamomma]

3. Turkey needs to come clean and acknowledge what happened

and apparently Turkey has not learned their lesson from the past, if they are going to invade Northern Iraq.

Turkey is not going to listen to anyone especially the US not to attack Northern Iraq, they are going to do what they damn well please, hmmm....sounds like our current administration/regime.

[BearSquirrel2]

28. Honestly ...

Honestly, the 1 state solution is now impossible. Furthermore I don't think the 3 state solution is even tenable anymore. I think we're looking at a ZERO state solution with Iraq being gobbled up by it's neighbors. Given that this is just a collection of tribes anyway, I see no difference where the "capital" would be and who the ruler is if there is no respect for country and the sheik is the highest relevant authority.

If Turkey wants to go down our road, they're welcome to it. They'll eventually leave northern Iraq with their tail tucked between their knees.

[bdamomma]

50. they want to tuck that oil area in Northern Iraq between their knees.

[BearSquirrel2]

52. And that's bad ?

And why is that bad? The problem with an independent Kurdistan is that they have no sea access and so must rely on others to move their oil for them. A new supply line through Turkey might be a good thing that can be used as leverage against Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, etc...

[amandabeech]

65. There is a pipeline between Kirkuk and Ceyhan, a Turkish port.

It has been attacked during the war by who knows whom, but it is still there. It needs a little repair and better protection.

[seemslikeadream]

4. goergie's going with the diplomacy he has not with the diplomacy he should have

[Duppers]

5. Relevant

Relevant to the question of smearing current day Turkey with the genocide of Armenians:

Have we continued to smear the Germans, the Japanese?

How about the Spanish and the Portuguese (in the genocide of South American Indians in the 20th century)?

How about the peoples of the Balkins wars (of the 1912 and the 1990's)?

And all the shit that's gone down in Guatemala and Indonesia in recent history?

Are we still publicly condemning the post-war Vietnamese?

Israel is not guiltless either.

There are dozens of other countries where we've turned our backs and closed our eyes and mouths.

What's the political motivation of slamming Turkey NOW?

Blackmail for their intervention into Iraq? But trying this kind of blackmail tactic will only backfire.



Btw, I am in no way trying to defend Turkey. But in calling a spade a spade SO much later, one must think about the motives here.

[ozone_man]

12. One genocide at a time.

This will be a good thing. Once we get over this one, then we can take on some of the ones on your list. A big one is the one in our own backyard of course. The one we are in denial of concerning the genocide of the Native Americans. Another is the genocide that we are part of in Iraq. Maybe that is an unintended consequence, but I think it is a likely outcome.

Also, the genocide of Palestinians by Israel. We have to start the dialogue somewhere and 1.5 million Armenians is no small number.

[Duppers]

26. I agree

My point is WHY NOW? The the Armenian Holocaust happened from 1915 to 1917.

We KNEW this when they were admitted into NATO.

See my point? I know you do, OM. :hi:


How many millions were killed in southeast Asia post-war Vietnam? And how many millions did the Russians kill? And yes, I know the this country cannot talk about genocide; my family is part native American.

I just like consistency. Why is this country just NOW publicly condemning the Armenian Holocaust? This should have been done decades ago! Better late than never, I suppose, but it's politically motivated and not done out of the 'goodness' of our hearts. The Turks are a proud people who do not forget and they remember their empire. I know. YES, THEY do not belong in northern Iraq, but it's a matter of the pot & kettle.

[ozone_man]

31. There probably is another motive.

I just don't know what it is.

For a while France pressed for a condition to Turkey's acceptance to the EU that they acknowledge the Armenian genocide. But it was overruled by the rest of the EU.

It could have something to do with Turkey's ideas to invade Kurd region of Iraq. I.e., putting pressure on Turkey.

From a general perspective, I think it's a good thing to have more genocides in history recognized than the Holocaust, lest we repeat them in the future (or as in Iraq over the past five years). Forcing Turkey to acknowledge their genocide may have the unintended consequence of forcing the U.S. to talk about it's genocide of Native Americans, and so on. Actually, I heard a U.S. Rep this morning talking about that issue on NPR this morning. That we should acknowledge our own genocide.

[BearSquirrel2]

30. It's not a slam ...

It's not even a condemnation. It's a RECOGNITION. Turkey is acting like a spoiled brat nation running around with it's hands over it's ears. They need to come to terms with what happened. The denial of these actions isn't healthy for anyone involved.

[ohio2007]

6. 27-21 vote for the bill ? Just who voted against the bill ? nt

[bdamomma]

11. .........................

The 21 who voted "No"


[phone] Gresham Barrett (R-SC)
" " 6536 Roy Blunt (R-MO)
" " 4201 John Boozman (R-AR)
" " 2276 Dan Burton (R-IN)
" " 2671 Russ Carnahan (D-MO)
" " 2635 Jeff Flake (R-AZ)
" " 4806 Jeff Fortenberry (R-NE)
" " 2615 Luis Fortuno (R-PR)
" " 2531 Ruben Hinojosa (D-TX)
" " 6030 Bob Inglis (R-SC)
" " 2536 Connie Mack (R-FL)
" " 3461 Gregory Meeks (D-NY)
" " 3032 Brad Miller (D-NC)
" " 3021 Mike Pence (R-IN)
" " 6565 Ted Poe (R-TX)
" " 8467 Illeana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL)
" " 2939 David Scott (D-GA)
" " 8901 Adam Smith (D-WA)
" " 7882 Thomas Tancredo (R-CO)
" " 4714 John Tanner (D-TN)
" " 3001 Robert Wexler (D-FL)

[ohio2007]

13. thats not the full story

R. 12
D. 8

that leaves 27 yeas and I wonder how they fell along party lines

[ohio2007]

7. Next week the Turkish parliment meets to authorize the use of force

in northern Iraq.
....this little nudge by a non binding resolution taken by a few Congressman may be upsetting....
So that is why the Turkish ambassador was recalled for seven to 10 days

[MrCoffee]

8. bet on it.

[Alhena]

9. I fear we are making a terrible mistake on this issue ...

I can just see this resolution passing, Turkey cutting off the use of their roads to bring in these new heavily armored vehicles, and then all of a sudden every US soldier who is killed in Iraq by an IED will be met with the Chimp saying it's the moral responsibility of Democrats, that they would still be alive if we hadn't stopped them from getting the new vehicles.

Disregarding the political implications, I just think it's wrong to put our soldiers at risk, even in a joke of a war, for the sake of a resolution about atrocities that happened in 1915. Who exactly dredged up this issue now of all times? Why aren't we discussing a resolution about the Rape of Nanking in 1937 or Pol Pot's atrocities in Cambodia?

This just doesn't make any sense to me and is terrible politics to boot.

[ohio2007]

10. Look to who brought up the bill for your answer

it should be discussed

snip
Turkish officials conveyed their "unease" over the bill and asked that the Bush administration do all in its power to stop the bill from passing in the full House, a Foreign Ministry official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to make press statements.


snip

Turkish newspapers denounced the decision. "27 foolish Americans," the daily Vatan said on its front-page headline, in reference to legislators who voted for the bill.

Hurriyet called the resolution: "Bill of hatred."

The U.S. Embassy urged Americans in Turkey to be alert for violent repercussions. Wilson said he regretted the committee's decision and said he hoped it would not be passed by the House.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_us_genocide

I still wonder how the roll call of votes fell

[MrCoffee]

14. this bill has been in the works for years

and it's been used to score political points by both parties.

the last time it got this close, Clinton asked Hastert to pull it from the floor, and Hastert did.

[ohio2007]

15. So it's all about politics and nothing about Turkish guilt but why

did Clinton need it pulled ?
Shore up foreign support for Bosnia ?

[MrCoffee]

16. that's an excellent question...i don't know the answer to it

here's a link to the letter Clinton wrote Hastert asking that the resolution be pulled from the floor: http://www.anca.org/596-hastert.html

"We have significant interests in this troubled region of the world: containing the threat posed by East and Central Asia, stabilizing the Balkans, and developing new sources of energy. Consideration of the resolution at this sensitive time will negatively affect those interests and could undermine efforts to encourage improved relations between Armenia and Turkey -- the very goal the sponsors of this Resolution seek to advance.

I fully understand how strongly both Turkey and Armenia feel about this issue. Ultimately, this painful matter can only be resolved by both sides examining the past together. "

[ohio2007]

47. October 19, 2000 . less than 1 month from the election

Bill was worried about central and east Asian energy sources?

[MrCoffee]

48. entirely possible...good catch.

[onenote]

23. clinton's letter asking hastert to pull the armenian resolution

Dear Mr. Speaker:
I am writing to express my deep concern about H. Res. 596, dealing with the tragic events in eastern Anatolia under Ottoman rule in the years 1915-1923. Every year on April 24, I have commemorated Armenian Remembrance Day, mourning the deportations and massacres of innocent Armenians during that era. And every year, I have challenged all Americans to recommit themselves to ensuring that such horrors never occur again. However, I am deeply concerned that consideration of H. Res. 596 at this time could have far-reaching negative consequences for the United States. We have significant interests in this troubled region of the world: containing the threat posed by East and Central Asia, stabilizing the Balkans, and developing new sources of energy. Consideration of the resolution at this sensitive time will negatively affect those interests and could undermine efforts to encourage improved relations between Armenia and Turkey -- the very goal the sponsors of this Resolution seek to advance. I fully understand how strongly both Turkey and Armenia feel about this issue. Ultimately, this painful matter can only be resolved by both sides examining the past together. I urge you in the strongest terms not to bring this Resolution to the floor at this time. Sincerely, Bill Clinton

[raebrek]

41. Kurds

I have heard that this is comes up every year to be voted on and that it does not pass. I don't know for how long it has been going on. So I feel that Turkey is using this as an excuse to go fight the Kurds that they haven't liked anyway. You know "The Americans" have inflamed us. Let's go attack north Iraq and get them Kurds. Just my thoughts though.

Raebrek!!!

[amandabeech]

18. Poor timing on this bill.

I don't mean to condone genocide, but I agree with your assessment on the possibility of putting our soldiers at risk. In addition to bringing in the vehicles overland, I read elsewhere today that 1/3 of the gasoline and diesel that our troops need comes in through Turkey, and 70% of the supplies flown in for our folks either pass over Turkish airspace or land at our base in Incirlik on their journey. I want to get out of Iraq, but cutting off supplies will not make an organized and safe re-deployment.

In addition, the Turkish parliament is voting next week on whether to authorize a massive Turkish military invasion of the Kurdish area of northern Iraq. If Turkey should do something like that, there will be considerable loss of Iraqi life there, and the Kurds will only retaliate later. It will be more difficult to get the situation under control.

It is also possible that a major cross-border incursion by Turkey would destabilize the rest of Iraq. As I understand it, many of the so-called Iraqi army troops are converted Kurdish peshmerga militia members. If they all go home, along with members of the Iraqi government (one of the highest officials is a Kurd whose name escapes me), more Arab sunni/shia violence could ensue, and the Iraqi government could be even more immobilized.

The Turks must eventually come to grips with their ancestor's behavior, and the Armenians really have a point, but now is not the time. Political payback must wait as well, while we focus on the problems of U.S., Iraq and the region today.

[wtmusic]

38. Could you guys wait until it's a little more convenient

for us to acknowledge that millions of your ancestors were slaughtered? Sounds a little ridiculous, no?

There is no time for the truth like the present, and our soldiers are at risk because they are in a country they have no right to be in.

[ohio2007]

49. Timing is everything..politically...

This could be a way to get the Turks do what our own congress refused to do;
cut support for the ongoing expeditions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If the Turks block the supply pipeline due to a parlimentary vote next week,congress is innocent in what other nations imposed .

we will see if the bill gets killed before the Turkish parliment vote on authorizing the use of force in Iraq
or
suspend US right to bases in Turkey.


Guess we will know this time next week who tips their hand in this game of brinksmanship

[eagler]

24. Absolutely agree. The world already knows that it happened.

It was carried out by the the Ottoman Empire, not the present Turkish government which is one of the few secular states in the region. And if it is to be condemned now then why not along with all the other atrocities. Democrats were left with every chance to promote peace in that part of the world when they took control of Congress and it seems that they have shot nine of their toes off and are taking aim at the tenth. Why now? Why pick another fight when so much killing is being done in our own name? the Ottoman empire is no more - There are no more sultans,no more pashas,no more janissaries. These are the ones who commited the crimes. They exist no more.

[cliss]

19. Cliss (humble) prediction:

(no crystal ball needed)

1. Turkey invades northern Iraq.

2. Turkey decides to cut off US supply routes to Iraq. Also airspace.

3. Tensions escalate to an unbelievable degree.

4. Next?

[BearSquirrel2]

29. Last I checked ...

Last I checked Turkey wanted to join the European Union. Apparently the UK and other European countries have already passed such a genocide acknowledgment act. This is all bluster. If Turkey invades Northern Iraq they'll get what they deserve. They'll get what we have right now and worse.

[Dave From Canada]

21. I applaud the Dems. The Armenian genocide has been swept under the rug for decades.

It's too bad for Turkey if they feel bad. But truth is truth.

[Maribelle]

22. Discussions of the Armenian Genocide ...

http://forum.armenianclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26



http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=8193

[Sin]

25. Just watch the Documentary Screamers.

It will give you a good idea on what its all about.
I can see why they want It declared what it was and it explains why it hasn't happened yet.

[Alameda]

33. why now?

I think the reasons it passed now, rather than earlier are:

1 We have a Speaker who is from CA, which has a very strong well organized and motivated Armenian constituency.

2 There is a large Armenian diaspora population in the US. Passing this bill placates them into thinking something is being done.

2 It makes them look like they are "doing" something. When what we really want are more relevant things passed, like impeachment, the repeal of the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act....Hebeas Corpus....and on and on...

IMHO this was a terrible idea. The WWII Genocide was a very different matter. The Nazi campaign was for the total destruction of the Jews, Gypsies, Gays and any who the Nazis thought were inferior.

This is an issue that happened during WWII. Millions lost their lives, millions were starving. Armenians massacred Turks when they allied themselves with the Russian enemy forces against the Ottoman Empire. Very few people know much about the political alliances at that time, much less what happened between the Armenians and the Turks.

There is another side of the story, but it's hard to find or hear.

Here is a link to a different source:

http://www.turkishweekly.net/armenian.php

Then it also helps demonize the Turks....after all they are Muslims, aren't they?

[Flabbergasted]

35. The Armenian population can't be more than two tenths of a percent

of the American Population. And not tremendously wealthy.

The 2000 consensus indicates 380,000 full or partial Armenians. Hardly a massive political force.

[Alameda]

37. Armenian population in the USA

Not a huge amount, but:

:The United States is now home to more than one million Armenians. Approximately half of this population reside in California, largely in the cities of Glendale, Fresno, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.:

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=USA

One thing in common with all the Armenian lobby groups is their animosity towards anything Turkish. They play the victim role to hide their aggression over Azeri and Turkish land.

In 1994 alone, the Armenian Assembly of America spent $7,000,000 - most of it on lobbying the congress.

Their activities involve recognition of their so-called genocide in the American and other parliaments throughout the world. Without going to court, they want to force Turkey to accept their theory of genocide and extract a forced apology. Their ultimate aim is to establish a Western Armenia on Turkish soil.

[BuddhaGirl]

42. "so-called" genocide?

bullshit. History says otherwise. So do many other countries, who have officially recognized the horror that was Armenian Genocide.

The Armenian Genocide was Hitler's inspiration for the Holocaust.

[Alameda]

54. instead of swearing present your facts

Was there a war going on or not?
Were there Armenians fighting against the Turks or not?
Is it not true that Armenians participated in massacres or not?
Exactly what were the conditions of all the citizens at that time. IOW, was there a shortage of food at that time or not?

[BuddhaGirl]

57. some info on the Genocide

from Mother Jones:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2004/04/04_534.html

"The Armenian Diaspora has made progress in discrediting the Turkish government's version of events in legislatures, newspapers, and classrooms throughout the world. Several parliaments -- including the French National Assembly have passed laws recognizing the Armenian Genocide. The U.S. Congress had passed resolutions doing the same. The Association of Genocide Scholars of North America concluded that the killings meet the definition of the 1948 U.N. Convention on Genocide which includes the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." Atom Egoyan's "Ararat" -- the first major motion picture on the Armenian Genocide -- was shown worldwide and won Canada's top movie awards in 2003. The movie focused on the way the Diaspora has dealt, over generations, with the memory of the genocide and Turkey's refusal to acknowledge it.

This year, the New York Times issued guidelines to its journalists stating that the facts of the Armenian Genocide are well-established and that references to it "should not be qualified with phrasing like 'what Armenians call,' etc." -- reversing a long-standing policy of using qualifiers."

My ex-husband is Armenian; his great-grandfather was among a group of Constantinople (Istanbul) intellectuals who were rounded up and murdered by the Turks right before the Genocide.

[wtmusic]

43. Yeah those Jews play the victim role, too

You are out to lunch. The Armenian genocide was systematic and is well documented -- hardly a "theory". FDR called it the "greatest crime of the war".

A little background reading -- please:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

[Alameda]

55. I've read a LOT on this, both sides, not one.

The question is not weather many died or not. The question is not if massacres took place, it is weather or not a systematic campaign was instituted to exterminate the Armenian population in Turkey based on their religion or ethnicity. There was a very big war going on at the time. It is estimated that 20 million died.

Seeing as there were still many left, it doesn't look like that was the case.
And, I don't need to read pages on wikipedia that have been edited. I've followed this for quite a long time and have seen the pages changed.

[wtmusic]

60. There were a few Jews left too

so if that's your criterion I have no comeback for you. If that's not your criterion, let me know what it is and I will promptly lay waste to it.

[Alameda]

62. since you mention it.....

Seeing as you mention the Jews, may I mention the Ottoman Empire offered refuge to the Jews during the Spanish Inquisition, and during WWII?

Offering a letter from an American Ambassador who was being influenced by Protestant Missionary activity is not proof. The prevailing sentiment at the time was those horrible Muslim Turks are hurting the Christians. Those sentiments were being fanned by the propaganda at the time.

In Germany all Jews were subject to being sent to the "camps". There is no parallel in Turkey during WWI.

Here, read:
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/massacres/mrguleser.html

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/chronology/index.html

[wtmusic]

63. And Adolf Hitler was great for the German economy

What kind of argument is that? Because some Ottomans did some good things, at some point in history, Turkish genocide is impossible? Your two links from a the Turkish equivalent of NewsMax are supposed to counter the 22 countries who have signed legislation officially recognizing the Armenian genocide? There certainly is an equivalent to the holocaust, and that is that somewhere around 1M Armenians were marched to their death of hunger, exposure, and bullets because of their genetic heritage, hence "genocide". It was government policy backed up by numerous official documents.

You give your hand away, and that is that you are loyal to Turkey to the point of being unable to acknowledge fact or fault. You don't do your country any favors.

[Alameda]

64. so....don't question ....move on...accept your version?

You try to discredit me instead of looking at the issue, and you tip your hand in your inference that I'm a Turk. What is that supposed to mean? You infer that Turks don't have and voice in an issue that effects them? We should only listen, read opinions and evidence from who do you suggest? For your interest, I am American with no Turkish heritage. For years I accepted the Armenian Genocide story from the Armenian side. I never met a Turk or heard that side, I didn't even know there was another side.

It was the constant nagging about the issue that aroused my curiosity. In doing research other facts came to light that caused me to question motives and veracity of the claim of the "Armenian Genocide".

"Your two links from a the Turkish equivalent of NewsMax "

I suppose I should only use the references from Armenian sources, or maybe the allies who were busy trying to demonize Turks? Probably you would prefer:

http://www.anca.org/action_alerts/actionalerts.php

Here's another one:

http://www.armenianreality.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

[BuddhaGirl]

70. Did you miss this? From the Mother Jones link above

"The problem for Turkey is that records of the "Young Turk" government which orchestrated the killings, dispatches from Western diplomats, military officers, and aid workers, and testimonials of genocide survivors all confirm a systematic effort to wipe out the Armenian minority."

from a link within the Mother Jones article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/2572667.stm

"Turkey has never denied forcing the Armenians out but says this did not amount to genocide. Filed away in the Ottoman archives is an extraordinary document. Signed in 1915 by the government's cabinet, it is an official order for the deportation of all Armenians. Men, women and children were all classified as the enemy and were to be driven out.

The American Ambassador in Constantinople at the time, Henry Morgenthau, urgently contacted the Secretary of State in Washington. He wrote: "Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing, and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion". It is clear that America was made aware of the extent of the atrocities at an early stage.

This info is not from biased sites like the ones you posted above.

[okojo]

39. Armenians Americans do have power

I grew up with alot of Armenian Americans, this is an issue they have wanted address for years. Armenians are not to be trilfe with in California politics. They are also a huge diaspora and fundraising for Armenian leaders back in Armenia. They helped in getting James Rogan defeated in 2000, where many Armenian Americans lived in his district. Some well known Armenian Americans are former Gov. George Deukmejian and Criminal Defense Attorney Mark Geragos.

The resolution and this battle between the Turkish Gov't and the Armenians in the US has been going on for some time. Both sides have constantly interpreted the Armenian Genocide and tried to spin their own story.

Personally, The US Congress shouldn't get involved, and if it is going to be self righteous, then it should pass a resolution condemning the genocide against American Aboriginals, the massacre of Chinese and the occupation of Korea by Japan, along with the genocides in Cambodia and the genocide in Rwanda.

[bdamomma]

51. there are wealthy Armenians, we just don't publicize it!

[Flabbergasted]

34. Why now? Of all the times in history, why choose a critical moment

in the Kurdish/Turkish issue to bring this up.

Do they WANT Turkey to invade? This is potentially disastrous.

[kintaro]

40. Bad timing

This event is at a bad timing for the US and the soldiers in Iraq.

According to this article (sorry, in german) ...

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/armenien10.html

About 70% of food supply for the soldiers in Iraq are going through Turkey. 3000 trucks are daily crossing the the border to Iraq.

To make it short. Without Turkey, there is no water for your soldiers.

This can really damage the NATO.

Sure, it's correct to remind Turkey about the genocides they did, but I think it's not a good thing to bring your own soldiers into danger by this.

[DAMANgoldberg]

45. Check

This resoolution is political theatre, just like most others that any Congress will take up. If Speaker Pelosi plays her cards right, she can use this opportunity to give the present Administration a choice. This vote will go through or Impeachment goes on the table. This could force his hand in how to conduct this illegal war.

Of course now, the reason that hasn't happened is because the present Administration has the Democratic leadership in a comprising position politically, socially, economically, or otherwise. Let's face it, if Turkey decides to jump into Iraq, there isn't a D___ thing we/PTB could do about it. This occupation is not going to end well anyway.

[Sukie1941]

46. I know I'm a day late

on my comment, and I don't see anything else dated today Oct 12 on the forums even though this topic is very much on the news today......

Why in hell are we, is Congress, taking up a topic like this NOW?

I have read and read and still don't get it. Can someone put it in baby terms for me?

[fujiyama]

58. Why Now?

Because it's perfect timing to give Bush a massive fucking headache.

Personally, I believe this was a great move by Pelosi for several reasons:

It drives Bush nuts because he can't deal with the Turks.

And it's the right thing to do. Wow, it's amazing to see this "realpolitik" mentality at DU. Yeah, everyone here is fucking Kissinger now.

[Xerxes]

61. This hurts our country, not just Bush

Or do you want our soldiers to be without supplies and Iraq to be more of a mess than it already is?

The timing of this is really awful, not only with Iraq and Afghanistan (where Turkish troops are present as part of NATO) but in Turkish politics as well. Turkey is just coming out of a major election where pro-reform leaders have been put into power. Pressing this issue now makes it much less likely that Turkey will relax its attitude and be more open about this issue in the future, and less likely that Turkey will continue reforms to make it more of a liberal democracy.

[JustAnotherGen]

69. Hmm

On the idea that "It happened under the Ottoman Empire". . .

"Who after all today speaks of the Armenian genocide?" - Adolf Hitler, persuading his associates that a Jewish holocaust would be tolerated by the West.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A884432

I've placed a few angry comments above - and I apologize to the poster that I responded to re: the 'Real/Native' Americans . . .

But I would strongly urge all to read A Problem from Hell by Samantha Power AND the book Paris 1919 by Margaret MacMillan.
First -
In my heart - I feel that if Turkey is not put on notice that "we know what happened" NONE of us have the right to be upset about he genocide taking placing against the Fur people in Sudan today. None of us do. Tear down the Holocaust Memorials, forget about the killing fields, forget the Balkans, and don't cry for the Rwandans. My anger for the Armenians is JUST as strong as it is for Darfur. I don't care if it offends the Turks. I don't.

And am I the only one who is not more than a little angry that the citizens of Turkey feel they have the right to tell OUR Congress what they can or can't do or Else?

Well fuck me running. WE as American citizens don't even have that power - so just who the hell do they think they are? Why when our Congress won't listen to us, didn't cut off the funding for the troops so our soldiers would be at home and cutting off supply lines would NOT be an issue had they followed the mandate we gave them last November . . . why the hell should OUR Congress listen to them? Am I caustic at their ARROGANCE? You betcha. Obviously - the rest of the world thinks we the American people are a joke and that our Congress represents THEM - not US.

Let me make clear again . . . Cutting off supplies from our Soldiers should not be an issue. The occupation was supposed to be over when I voted last November, but obviously I just had smoke blown up my ass. And my ass caught fire!

Second -
I believe that Llyod George, Wilson and Clemenceau had the best of intentions. In theory the 14 Points post WWI was a great idea. But it was ill-conceived. Because from Hitler invading Poland, the Vichy Government's support of the German invaders, the Vietnam War, Korean War, Balkan Wars (and subsequent Genocide), the Iraqi genocide of the Kurds, Rwanda, to France's secret war in Central Africa Republic . . . it failed.

The WORLD met in Paris in 1919 - and this wasn't really addressed then. It's time to address it. And saying, "Well it was the Ottoman Empire" just doesn't cut it for me. They got a free pass then because Clemenceau and Lloyd George got in a pissing match over Mesopotamia (Present day Iraq) and the oil reserves there. And then the Americans got into the act and look where we STILL are today!


If they want to be a part of the 'Big Modern World' - they are going to have to admit they've done wrong. Their actions then - resonate today.

Let me give another example . . . just because a war was fought by Southern Americans under the Confederate Flag for the states' right to have slaves - does not mean that we as Americans can stick our heads in the sand and say, "Well it was them. It was another 'country' then so it doesn't matter." Ya think? How about the 2/3 compromise?

It's a part of our history of our land. We aren't the 'same country' as we were then, but it reverberates today. We just ripped off the band-aid AGAIN with the Jena Six. If they want legitimacy from this Jen Q. Citizen - they have to mea culpa right along with me - and rip the band-aid off the history of their country.