U.S. demands passenger lists for sun flights (that don't take off or land in U.S.)

[Newsjock]

Source: The Globe and Mail

The U.S. government has angered Canada's airlines with a proposal to order them to hand over personal information about passengers who take flights that go south over U.S. airspace en route to sunny destinations.

Although the planes wouldn't take off from or land on American soil, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security is proposing that Canadian carriers send passenger manifests up to 72 hours in advance of departures to popular winter escapes such as Mexico and the Caribbean.

Under the U.S. Secure Flight program, there would be the same requirement to transmit data on northbound return flights from foreign holiday destinations.

... "We're already vetting our passengers against the Canadian no-fly list,” ATAC policy vice-president Fred Gaspar said yesterday in an interview.

... “There are also privacy concerns,” Mr. Gaspar said. “This is a data-fishing expedition by a third-party government. What makes this problematic is that you're heading to another country and you're not trying to get into the U.S. What's the point of this co-operative approach if our list isn't deemed to be good enough for the United States? They're using a hammer to swat a fly.”

Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071011.airspace11/BNStory/National/home

[Taverner]

1. They are looking for Americans going to Cuba

Pretty fucked up, if you ask me

[MADem]

3. Ah, ya beat me to it!!!!! That's it, precisely.

Guess those Americans will have to fly outta Jam-rock....!

[Taverner]

6. Yup. Or Costa Rica, Venezuela. Not Mexico

They had DHS agents scouring the airport when I was last in Cancun, acting like they ran the place.

[robinlynne]

10. That was my first thoguht too.

[rodeodance]

2. anything goes in the name of war on terror

[PDJane]

4. It's a fine way to put a limit on the number of folks

Willing to travel to Cuba or Costa Rica or .......and it's another kind of invasion of a sovereign state.

[GliderGuider]

5. Repeat -- AIR SECURITY: DEMAND ANGERS CANADIANS

I self-deleted my duplicate post. While I was busy my post got 2 recs.

Hey, Admins, can Newsjock get the recs from my post?

* * *

AIR SECURITY: DEMAND ANGERS CANADIANS
U.S. wants passenger data for all sun-seeker flights
BRENT JANG
October 11, 2007

Washington has angered Canada's airlines with a proposal to order them to hand over personal information about passengers who take flights that go south over U.S. airspace en route to sunny destinations.

... snip ...

"There are also privacy concerns," Mr. Gaspar said. "This is a data-fishing expedition by a third-party government. What makes this problematic is that you're heading to another country and you're not trying to get into the U.S. What's the point of this co-operative approach if our list isn't deemed to be good enough for the United States? They're using a hammer to swat a fly."

Canadian airlines would be required to turn over the full name of passengers as it appears on passports, date of birth, gender and, if applicable, the so-called "known traveller number" - a unique number assigned to travellers that the U.S. government has previously deemed do not pose a security threat. Over and above that information, the TSA will encourage Canadian carriers to send other data, if available, including a passenger's itinerary with the departure airport code, airline, departure time, arrival time and arrival airport code.

... snip ...

Separately, the International Air Transport Association plans to raise its concerns about the TSA's sweeping data-collection proposals that would cover flights between U.S. cities, as wells as flights between the United States and foreign airports. After a final ruling is published, airlines would have 60 days to comply.

[Judi Lynn]

8. Recommending your post ,for your excellent use of bolding!

No one would have believed, prior to this stolen Presidency, that this could ever happen on behalf of our country.

What are the odds these filthy steps can ever been reversed? Will the next President (if we are going to be able to HAVE a different President), stepping in with so much more power, be inclined to make things right again? It may be a challenge to forgo the thrill of so much power, even if it's the only moral thing to do.

[MADem]

28. It's angering the AIRLINES, but the government is fine with it.

Unless the CBC and the government spokesman are lying. They're sharing a joint no-fly list and a watch list now, anyway.

About the only thing I see changing down the line might be the timeline--they'll probably pare it down to less than three days.

[truebrit71]

7. I do hope the Canadians tell them to...

...go take a flying fuck at the moon...

[damntexdem]

9. What, Canadian airlines fly to the Sun?

The U.S. hasn't even been able to fly to the Moon again for over 30 years.

;-)

Canada should tell the U.S. that it can have the lists if it picks them up in person -- on the Sun.

[file83]

11. Up Next: Even jets that don't plan on flying over the U.S., but have enough fuel to reach it...

...will be required to hand over passenger lists.

Now that's not true, I made it up...BUT, in this upside-down doublethink backwards-ass world of Bush that we live in, would you really be so surprised to read this in tomorrow's headlines?

[minnesota_liberal]

12. I wasn't aware that overflight permissions were based on individual passengers

Besides being an invasion of privacy, a burden to airlines and easily sidestepped by anyone who really want to, this approach isn't based on any identifiable threat and is unlikely to make anyone safer.

[MADem]

13. I watched the CBC news on this. They're caving in, totally. They're saying

"US airspace, US right to demand lists." This was followed by one lady saying "Jesus, invasion of privacy!" and two others saying "We have to do what we must and sacrifice for the war on terra..."

I thought I was hearing Americans...but they were Canadians!

[minnesota_liberal]

14. I hope Big Brother finds that 'Elvis' is making frequent trips over the U.S.

It would go far toward illustrating how easy it is to use fake ID for air travel and why this approach is unlikely to work.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. gotta love Canadians...

If you want to make Canadians care about this, you need to convince them that it is some how responsible for the critical shortage of Nintendo Wii's or their high cell phone rates. If you want Canadians to rise against it convince them it is responsible for iPod's and SUV's being more expensive in Canada than the US.

Canadians don't give a fuck about very much,

[Billy Burnett]

16. Travel agents worried about proposed U.S. rules (Canadians and Cuba travel)

Source: CBC

A Charlottetown travel agent who does bookings for Cuba says his sales will take a hit if U.S. authorities demand passenger lists from Canadian airlines.

The U.S. Homeland Security Department wants to see the names of passengers on flights that are not only landing in the U.S., but also passing through American air space.

That worries travel agent David Gregori, who believes his customers may now think twice about booking flights to Cuba.

"Any Canadian going to the States, if on their record it says they visited Cuba, could be in for a rough ride at the border," Gregori told CBC News Thursday.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2007/10/12/airtravel-us.html

---

Bush and Company just making friends all over the place. Doesn't it just make you feel all warm and fuzzy? :crazy:

[Spazito]

17. The response from the phony conservative government here (in Canada)...

will be VERY interesting, imo. There is going to be an election sooner than later, quite possibly in early December so the PM will have to show he is NOT a bushbot poodle wannabe and come out strong on this one to even attempt to hold on to their minority government status.

I have no doubt, though, it will be done with a wink, wink, nod, nod from the bush admin knowing old stevie boy needs to pretend to distance himself from the much hated bush cabal.

[Mika]

18. If a plane from Cuba going back to Canada had to land in the US for an emergency..

.. would the passengers be sent to Gitmo or some other country to be renditioned? A Canadian who's flight stopped-over in the US has already been renditioned/tortured as a suspected terrorist (mistaken identity), and the US supreme court just ruled that he has no standing in US courts to sue the gov.

Scary indeed.

Bush/CheneyCrimeInc are outta control.



-

[Billy Burnett]

19. I remember a few years back Ft Lauderdale refused permission to land for a plane

from Cuba to Canada. The pilot demanded the permission because of an engine problem and said he was going to land the plane there anyway, which he did. The flight crew and passengers were detained in a secure area of the airport for over a day while they were interrogated and hassled over their trip to Cuba by US authorities.

I seem to remember that it caused a bit of a stir.

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

21. It's very interesting, Billy Burnett, how well the national press kept that story

strictly local! Apparently they realized it wouldn't sell across the country, and decided the rest of us shouldn't "worry our beautiful minds" about it.

Thanks for the information, as ugly as it is. It's really, really unacceptable. Ten years ago, no one would have believed this could happen in this country, I'm certain.

[Judi Lynn]

20. Bush's really throwing his weight around now, isn't he?

Apparently he doesn't view any obstacles to his complete control of everything, eventually. How unprepared we all have been for this!

Nixon's puppet Chilean mass murderer/dictator Augusto Pinochet had similar ambitions when he told people "not a blade of grass moves without my permission."

From the article:

The U.S. government has given groups such as the ATAC until a week from Monday to register concerns about the proposal.
(snip)

How is it he can "give" them a week? Who is he to "demand" anything from Canadians? Christalmighty.

[Billy Burnett]

23. Time to haul out the Godfrey-Milliken bill.

The Godfrey-Milliken Bill - A Canadian response to the Helms-Burton Law

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/080.html

FORT YORK, TORONTO -- MP John Godfrey (Don Valley West) and MP Peter Milliken (Kingston and the Islands) have announced their intention to introduce the Godfrey-Milliken Law as a private members bill in the House of Commons. Godfrey-Milliken follows the precedent established by the Helms-Burton Law in the United States enabling the government and citizens of one country to seek restitution from the government and citizens of another for the alleged trafficking in confiscated property.

The Godfrey-Milliken Bill would permit descendants of the United Empire Loyalists who fled the United States in the years following the 1776 American Revolution to reclaim land that is rightfully theirs and was confiscated unjustly and illegally by the American government and its citizens.

Furthermore, the Bill would enabled Canada to exclude corporate officers, or controlling shareholders of companies that engage in "trafficking", as well as the spouse and minor child of such persons from entering Canada.

The Bill, to be known as "The American Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (Loyalty) Act", is consistent with the new moral standard in international commerce set by Helms-Burton. Descendants of the 80,000 American Loyalists who fled the future United States of America and whose property was confiscated by self-constituted revolutionary courts should be equally entitled to prosecute U.S. citizens who now benefit from or enjoy seized Loyalist estates.

Half of the Loyalists settled in Canada and their descendants now number three million Canadians. On the Helms-Burton principle, those Canadians with proven lines of descent would be entitled to restitution, compensation, and interest. The value of their alienated property can be measured in the billions of dollars.

What makes the claims of Canadian Loyalists even stronger than those of the former American owners of Cuban property is that the United States has already accepted the obligation to compensate victims of its revolutionary confiscations and assaults on property and capital. The Treaty of Paris of 1783 between Britain and the new United States, ratified by the United States Congress, provided in Article V for: "the restitution of all Estates, Rights, and Properties, which have been confiscated." Not only did the U.S. Government fail to carry out this commitment, but several states continued to persecute adherents of the crown. Exiles who returned home to exercise their treaty right to their old properties and to recover debts were abused and driven off.

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

26. Absolutely! More people need to know about this fine bill!

By all means, it would be wrong for the U.S. to prosecute the Helms-Burton without addressing this bill, as well!

The Loyalists were not foreigners but Americans who only differed from their rebellious countrymen in political opinion. Thus the logic of the Helms-Burton Act should spur American legislators to compensate Loyalist descendants for property appropriated by revolutionary governments and retained by U.S. citizens, in defiance of an international agreement. By doing so, they will confirm their right to the moral leadership asserted by the Helms-Burton Act.

Thanks for posting this for the ones who've never heard of it.

[bdamomma]

22. sooner or later we will get our asses kicked.

[GliderGuider]

24. their concerns are well founded

A few years ago we took a vacation in Chile. There were several flights to chose from and we specifically took the one that had no stops in the States. We flew direct from Toronto to Santiago.

Our travel agent said that she was getting more requests like ours all the time. I can only imagine how often she's hearing it now.

[Billy Burnett]

25. Not just stops in the US, but any flights flying in US airspace your name goes on a DHS list.

[GliderGuider]

27. Yeah, I know.

That's precisely why I think travel agents are going to lose business.

I was pointing out that before this BS came along travel agents had to work around US security stupidities. There was an option for us in this case to take a REALLY LONG flight.
If non-US citizens risk getting our personal information into one of your whacky databases we'll travel less. Guaranteed.

[fortyfeetunder]

29. Here's a solution

Fly to Cuba during the rainy season :evilgrin:

[CHIMO]

30. The Issue

Is larger than flights to Cuba. Although that may be one of the high priority points.

The issue is who owns the rights up above.

The requirement means that flights taking off in Canada to another Canadian destination, but overflying a US projected airspace, will have to meet these requirements.

So the objective is obvious. Another move by the Empire.