Surges By Rivals Put Dean on the Defensive in Iowa

[DoveTurnedHawk]

<...>

In New Hampshire, which holds its primary a week after the caucuses, Gen. Wesley K. Clark has taken advantage of having the state almost to himself, as Dr. Dean tends to the tough battle in Iowa, drawing crowds that are beginning to rival the ones that typically show up to see Dr. Dean. Although Democratic strategists say they see little chance that Dr. Dean will lose New Hampshire, General Clark's rise is threatening Dr. Dean's once-dominant position in the state and could dash his hopes of essentially ending the contest with an overwhelming victory there.

General Clark is not competing in Iowa, and until at least Monday, when a group of Kerry supporters in Manchester challenged his Democratic credentials, escaped the attacks that have battered the Democrats who are competing here.

As he adjusted to this new terrain, Dr. Dean dropped all pretense of comity on Monday, throwing away big chunks of his stump speech and abandoning his pledge to avoid attacks on opponents. "I'm going after everybody because I'm tired of being the pin cushion here," he said.

At the same time, advisers debated what — if anything — they needed to do to deal with General Clark's success in New Hampshire. One Dean adviser likened the retired military man's performance to Dr. Dean's early rise in the polls last year that went unnoticed and largely unchecked by Mr. Kerry, who at the time was the dominant candidate.

"The reason that all those folks are coming at us debate after debate, newspaper column after newspaper column, is because they're afraid," Dr. Dean said Monday as he charged across Iowa in full fighter mode. "They're afraid of having ordinary people run their country. This is our country, it's not their country."

<...>

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/politics/campaigns/13DEAN.html

DTH

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

2. 'Arrogant piece of shit'? That's about as low as it gets DTH

He's talking about all ordinary people, not just his supporters. Do you need some help understanding English?

Nah, I take it back. I'm not going to help you out of the sewer.

Pathetic.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. My Reading Comp Is Just Fine, Thanks

He's criticizing other Democrats for daring to question him at the debates, and he's now stooped to claiming the entire country for himself and his supporters.

Context is your friend.

DTH

[wtmusic]

6. Your context is in your mind

maybe one day we can all share :puke:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. Who Do You Think "They" Refers To?

It's obviously referring to Sharpton and others who dare to ask legitimate questions of Dean.

This was a fucked up, arrogant statement.

DTH

[wtmusic]

9. The Washington establishment of Gephardt, Lieberman, and Kerry

who have been GOP handmaidens for the last 10 years or longer. How could it possibly refer to Sharpton, CMB, or Wes? They don't have anything to defend! And as we found out, Sharpton's question *wasn't* legitimate. It was posturing.

Dean has gotten scrutiny than Wes has in his lifetime and nearly all is from lifer congressmen who don't have an independent bone in their body. Dean comes along out of nowhere, develops a *completely* grass roots following, breaks records for fundraising and suddenly everyone else is pissed off too!

Ha! What a fucking coincidence!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. Kerry Is No GOP Handmaiden

Kerry is a solid liberal who made one mistake on one vote after having the screws put to him by his constituents.

Dean is referring to the Democrats who attack him. Which is a joke, since Dean has no shyness about attacking them, certainly.

"Our" country indeed. God, I feel sick that this man is the front-runner for "our" party's nomination.

DTH

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

22. I Bet I've Gotten Off My Ass More Than the Significant Majority of DUers

I'm not going to respond in kind to your "whining" and "self-absorbent" comments, however. I don't hate you; I just can't stand Howard Dean.

DTH

[Melodybe]

4. I hope the moderators flame you for saying that

Dean means well and you know it. I hope you feel ashamed of yourself, this is about getting rid of GWB not eating our own. I hope that you have a chance to relax and let go of all of this pent up anger. We are all on the same side. Believe it or not all of our candidates want to make our country better, and make our lives better, if they can. Dean as well. It is a real shame that you only have negativity to offer.

It makes you and your candidate look bad.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. No I Do Not "Know" Dean Means Well and No I Am Not at All Ashamed

See #3.

And last I checked, it was still legal to criticize candidates here.

DTH

[Melodybe]

10. I got in trouble for calling Lieberman an asswipe after he talked trash

about both Dean and Clark. I got a terrible flashing "ATTENTION" from the mods so I think that calling my candidate a piece of shit is just as offensive. If I were you I would expect one soon.

We are all on the same side her pal, we all want bu$h gone! Your constant attacks on my candidate are offensive and the people working their asses off to oust Dubya deserve better than your hatred and animosity.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

14. Feel Free to Alert Me

You're mistaken about your interpretation of the rules, however; I can't speak to your Lieberman comment, since I wasn't there.

I love many Dean supporters; I just can't stand Dean. Unlike certain others, I'm able to make a clear distinction. I'm sorry you take my disgust with Dean so personally.

DTH

[tkmorris]

12. Man this is ugly

Really ugly. The kind of ugly that makes you wonder if there really is any hope anymore.

Look I don't care WHO your candidate is. This kind of hatred helps no one, no one at all. If your candidate wins the nomination he CANNOT win the general unless he gets the support of those very same people who backed someone else in the primaries. Acting like you are is simply shooting your own candidate in the foot. No, in fact it is shooting everyones candidate in the foot. Your little flamefest turns off everyone at just the time in our nations history when it may be at its most imperative that we stand together. You are doing almost as much harm to this country as Bush backers do. It's disgusting and you shame us all. In the name of beating Bush and saving this country, please, stop. Just............. stop.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

15. Since Dean the Candidate Has Done His Level Best to Divide Dems

I'll take my chances.

I have little doubt that several candidates would be able to rally the party, since they have not gone negative or divisive as Dean and others have. Dean? No chance.

DTH

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. I Really Can't Help It If Certain Odd Folks Think I'm Speaking for Clark

That's their problem. If they want to find a reason not to support Clark or any other candidate, and they select me as that reason, so be it. I'm sure there are any number of other reasons that they would have settled on in any event, probably equally illogical.

I just can't stand Howard Dean, and after witnessing the crap that's been coming out of his mouth lately, I'm tired of keeping quiet just to be polite.

As for your attack, I'll decline to respond in kind.

DTH

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JNelson6563]

29. I remember a poster who was

civil and lucid and was above name calling and vulgarity. Now it is all negative and smears, destroy the party if need be even just make sure only my man gets the nom.

My conclusion, doesn't play well with others in spite of earlier impressions.

So if Dean wins the nom will you take your ball and go home? More contributions to the party, the greater good? Or is it all about you and your wants?

Julie

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. Are You Talking About Me, Or Yourself?

If you're talking about me, you're mischaracterizing my position badly, since I am not at all about "destroy<ing> the party if need be even just (sic) make sure only my man gets the nom." First, I'm not nearly so arrogant to think I have the capacity to destroy the party. Second, I have nothing major against any of the Democratic candidates save Dean. It's not about Clark getting the nomination. It's about stopping Dean, who would be a divisive disaster, from getting our party's nomination.

In the depressing and revolting scenario where Dean wins the nomination, I'd have to make a gut check. I wouldn't trash him any more, certainly, but I would probably have a hard time donating one penny or volunteering for one second, since my time and money are too valuable to waste and I honestly think he has no chance. Besides, I despise the man.

I live in California, where odds are the Democratic candidate will win no matter what. I'd probably end up voting for him if it was close. If it wasn't close, I'd consider a protest vote. Regardless, I wouldn't vote for Bush. I just am not sure at this point in time whether I would vote for Dean.

Think about that for a second. Your chosen candidate has made himself so dislikeable, so divisive, so negative, that even a die-hard, liberal Democrat like me has to grapple with whether he'd vote for the guy.

Just imagine how many swing voters and moderate Democrats and Republicans he's already alienated, even before Bush starts spending his $200MM.

DTH

[donotpassgo]

8. who are the other candidates?

Sharpton an activist turned race baiter, ego-maniac, and perjurer?

Gephardt? Kerry? Entretched beltway lifers?

Clark? A dem-come-lately who's reasons for being a democrat are shaky at best?

Edwards? A trial lawyer that's earned a gajillion dollars by being a populist?

Come on. You know Dean's talking about the elite that run the country. You know he's talking about the same wishy washy Democratic Party that produced Michael Dukakis that the Republicans eat alive.

[Melodybe]

11. I don't think he cares. He HATES us and nothing we can say will change

that. This is the last time I am going to dignify one of his attacks with a response. I have been working my ass of in MS to get people registered to vote and trying to convince people that Bu$h does not care about them, I deserve better than this. I am willing to work hard to get whoever the democratic nominee is elected, he obviously doesn't feel that way.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

16. I Don't Hate YOU at All

I just cannot stand Howard Dean. Sorry if that bugs you; you're always free to put me on Ignore, of course.

Regardless, I absolutely applaud your voter reg efforts.

DTH

[Alexander]

24. If you can't stand Howard Dean....

Then I have to ask why you have quotes of his in your signature, speaking fondly of your candidate. If he's that much of a lying scumbag, then you'd think that his words would mean nothing to you.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. Just Shows Even More of What a Hypocrite He Is

And how inconsistent he is, how he changes with the wind based on how he views his opportunistic political fortunes.

I've actually kept those quotes in my signature for ages, since I knew the day would come where Howard Dean would start attacking Clark.

DTH

[Tansy_Gold]

27. I'm on your side, DTH, even if I'm more an HTD

I have not yet decided who I'm going to vote for in Arizona's Feb. 3 primary, but I'm pretty darn sure it won't be Howard Dean.

Perhaps more than anything, I've been turned off by his supporters -- those who roar into righteous indignation whenever anyone DARES criticize or even question their candidate, while at the same time they defend his right to do whatever kind of criticizing or questioning he pleases. After thumbing his political nose at the DNC and then begging McAuliffe to call off the attacks, Dean came across to me as someone who plays by two sets of rules, the ones that apply to him and the ones that apply to everyone else.

A friend said to me just yesterday that she hopes if Dean doesn't win the nomination, he will at least be put on the ticket as VP -- because if he isn't, she fears he and his supporters may just walk off in a fit of pique. And she said this knowing how often Dean has insisted he would support the eventual nominee: "He says that when he's the frontrunner, knowing it's essentially meaningless; I wonder if he would say that if he weren't in the lead."

I will support and vote for whichever Dem wins the nomination, even if it's Dean, even if it's Lieberman. When it comes to the primary, I will vote for the person I think has the best chance of beating * -- even if that person isn't my "favorite" candidate. To me, that is the essence of voting my conscience -- doing what I believe will, in the long run, do the most to further the ideals I believe in. A losing candidate can't do a damn thing; I will vote pragmatically in all the upcoming crucial elections, not emotionally.

Tansy Gold

[1floridademocrat]

30. Oddly enough..

I think Clark supporters will do that more than Dean supporters.

I mean really.. based on those 2 old polls here, at least a 3rd of each camp says they WILL NOT vote for the other. The risk is there either way.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

32. There Are Supporters of Every Candidate Who Dislike Dean

It's not just Clark people, there are Kerry people, Gephardt people, Lieberman people (well, maybe Lieberman person), Kucinich people, Sharpton people, Edwards people who all have good cause to dislike Howard Dean.

Additionally, IMO many more Dean people are NBD, than there are supporters of any candidate who are NBX (where X is their candidate). I know I'd vote for just about any Democrat; I don't know if that's true for most of Dean's supposedly non-transferable supporters.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. I'm Actually More of a

Dove Turned Hawk Turned Owl. The screen name is an old remnant from the emotional months after 9/11.

Thanks for your post, I agree with much of it!

:thumbsup:

DTH

[chenGOD]

17. As a non-US citizen...

I am urging all of you to vote your conscience in the primaries, and then vote for WHICHEVER Democrat wins the nomination.

Please, for the world's sake.

[tkmorris]

19. Clear and concise

Well spoken. That is precisely what I intend to do and I hope everyone else does too. We need to remember that the Bush cabal is harmful to the entire world, not just us. We owe it to them to get rid of him.

[dfong63]

26. enjoy it while you can

In New Hampshire, which holds its primary a week after the caucuses, Gen. Wesley K. Clark has taken advantage of having the state almost to himself, as Dr. Dean tends to the tough battle in Iowa,

Dean's still beating the pants off Clark in NH, despite having to devote most of his time to IA. after the IA vote, look out.

[maddezmom]

28. interesting take on the race

guess we expect a lot more mudslinging in NH after IA.