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rodbarnett Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:20 PM
Original message
Gold dips as dollar rebounds on euro
Precious metal breaks through support as investors take money off the table before ECB words.
January 15, 2004: 12:05 PM EST


NEW YORK (Reuters) - The retreat in gold prices accelerated Thursday, breaching key technical levels, as a rebounding dollar fueled profit-taking on the precious metal's recent rally to 15-year highs.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/15/markets/gold.reut
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earthside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Keep that GOLD!
.:eyes:
In an economy and market so manipulated by the Bush regime, the Federal Reserve, and multi-national mega-corporations ... swings like this are bound to happen.

In the end, nothing will stop a day or reckoning over the massive federal debt and the massive consumer debt of Americans.

And, of course, there is the Peak Oil problem, the reason Bush invaded Iraq and will have to invade Iran and Saudi Arabis ... See: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

So keep those gold stocks, sell those dollars, and make sure your potassium iodide, ammunition, and emergency food supplies are fully stocked.

More at: http://www.earthside.com

Peace
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Whoa!! Just spent some time on your Peak Oil link.
Interesting and scary. I think that I need to get some acreage with a creek on it.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. ?? What's potassium iodide? Do I need some?
:shrug: What is it?


:kick:
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Ingredient for home-made explosives.
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 07:37 PM by Frodo
He's got gold bug mixed up with militia survivalist.


On edit - Some people also think it's usefull as a treatment for radiation poisoning. So maybe he's predicting WWIII. Still a bit wacky (oh, and by the way, it won't do you any good unless the bad guy picks a particular kind of bomb).
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. That would be a very unusual bomb
Potassium iodide is commonly used as a 'thyroid blocker' used to avoid absorbing radioactive iodine in your thyroid gland. What it's mostly useful for is avoiding the radiation effects from the steam that might be let off from a nuclear power plant gone bad. It doesn't do much against other types of radiation.

The idea is that you overload your thyroid with Potassium iodide so that if the radioactive iodine comes in contact with you, your thyroid can't absorb anymore.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. It's actually supposed to be quite effective.
I won't go into how it's supposedly made, since most of what is left is fairly common chemicals. But I'm sure the recipe is all over the INTERNET. Some say it's as powerful as "C-4", though I suspect that's teenage bravado/exaggeration.

But "don't try this at home" applies here. Most "do it yourself" explosives are pretty unstable.

The point I was making in my edit was that you're pretty unlikely to run into a bunch of radioactive iodine just because gold is going up. it would be a pretty weird bomb that used it. I certainly don't see why you would recommend stocking up on it.

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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Hmm...I think you're thinking of Potassium Nitrate, ie., saltpeter
Potassium nitrate is used in blackpowder, several explosives and some types of solid rocket propellants.

Potassium iodide is non-flammable.

:shrug:

But I digress...
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ya want chemical equations?
Both Potassium Iodide and regular old Iodine can be used to make explosives. Iodine & Ammonia can make a (not very powerful) explosive that goes off just by looking mean at it.

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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. Been there, done that
Left a big old purple stain in the lab table sink.

But I am certain they meant it as a prophylaxis against
the radioactive isotope of Iodine.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Recipe two would leave that stain in the lab sink.
Recipe one would leave no sink.


You're probably right about what he intended.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. So if they bomb us with with radioactive iodide...
...we won't be bothered with unsightly goiters?

:D
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mikita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. thanks for BOTH these links...
Finally a "connect the dots" experience (for me at least) as to WHY this Cabel is so willing to trash this planet when most of them have children, and WHY the "democrats" have been such enablers, and WHY the cabinet is so full of ex-oil executives (and WHY you would purposely suggest buying gas-guzzling SUVS and snow-mobiles).... and WHY...

This is the behavior of folks who know we're circling the drain, and that it canNOT be reversed, and who just want to make as much money as they can (and probably hoard gold too) to protect themselves for the rotten future ahead for all those who manage to survive.

Although a rather depressing article, it does clear up lingering questions that have enraged me for some time. There is comfort in understanding. Thanks and peace.

Mikita
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. Hi mikita!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. Hi earthside!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. market manipulation?
It seems that too many people are watching now. Too many people are seeing that heads are not rolling.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. gold is worthless IMHO
you can't eat it
you can't sleep under it
you can't ...well you get my drift

and in the post crash era people won't want gold
they'll want food

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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes, but what can one who needs food offer the heavily armed farmer
who has more than he needs in return?
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CaptainClark23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Storing Wealth
Only one thing stores wealth through War, Famine, Pestilence, you name it...good old gold.

Until the notion of wealth is no longer relevant to the human race (an outcome I consider very unlikely), relative notions of wealth and prosperity will still be with us. When the shit hits the fan, that wealth will be stored once again in gold.

Post-crash, the notion of trade would still exist, augmented by barter of goods and services. Gold will maintain the ability to function as an instrument of trade. Sure as hell fiat currencies won't. Neither will stock certificates. Nor car parts.

IMHO, as well.



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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Car parts? They'll be useful for barter until the oil runs out.
:evilgrin:
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. That's why I've got a little in precious metals...
and a lot in guns and ammo.

With guns and ammo, you can get anything else you need, either through barter or through direct application of force. They're also useful if somebody else wants to steal your cheese.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. ...they'll want food ...
... medicine, clothing, cars, gasoline, guns, and ammo.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. When is this "crash"
Things may seem bleak. But c'mon.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. BTW...
If it's the proverbial end of the world, I'd be willing to trade with somebody that has real gold (ie coins or ingots, NOT jewelry) for things like ammo, guns, and food that I've got. Just don't expect a real positive exchange rate...
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
33. gold is very valuable
when currency is not. There will always be wealthy people. Gold's value goes back to ancient times.

I'm glad to see it down to 409. That way I can scoop up some good deals.

Julie
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Too funny!
Anyone who has watched the long slow slide the dollar has taken over the last few months can only laugh and shake their head in wonder. :evilgrin:

"Dollar rebounds" huh? For how long Mr. Spock? For how long.....:shrug:
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
34. So true
"Rebound"!! haha Have we rebounded to last summer's levels? No.

Good call. This is PR and nothing more.

Julie
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. Funny how they don't seeem to think there is cause and effect here
The dollar didn't exactly rebound which caused people to drop gold. Central banks sold a big pile of gold to buy dollars to help support it.

It's more of a 'propping' than a 'rebounding'.

Check back in a few days/a week.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Hey htuttle,
Do you think that caused that instant but momentary drop in gold yesterday to 411? I mentioned it in the SMW thread. One large volume discount purchase that transpired by accident?
:shrug:
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I don't know if they make those kinds of accidents often
But a lot of wacky stuff seems to happen to gold. Maybe a central bank leased a whole bunch of gold, then sold it right away to buy dollars. That would allow them to leverage a far larger amount of gold than they actually owned.

At least I think that's how it works. I'm still a little confused on the concept of selling something you are only leasing...
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Yes, been a bit of wacky stuff going on with gold lately.
Think some of it comes from it being allowed to play a bit more freely on the market. That freedom will impact the behavior we've become accustomed to for so many years.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. I've been looking for this to happen for awhile.
The euro can only appreciate so much before it snuffs out the recovery in the eurozone.

I read a report today that said Germany was actually in recession for the first 3 quarters of 2003.

The dollar should be around 1.22 before the G7 meeting, and it will probably go up substantially from there.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Ya, but you got to admit it sure seems like there is a lot of market
manipulation going on this week, contrary to Greenspan's insisting that the open markets be allowed to work. They slap BoJ's hand for intervention one day and help them with it the next. That nice steady slow rise has intervention written all over it.
JMHO
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. You make it sound like intervention would be a bad thing at this point,
G7 needs to put a floor under the dollar next month, and the currency markets are anticipating this.

BoJ can't really intervene between euro/dollar.

Its just not in the EU's interest to have the euro as strong as it is, especially in the state that their economies are in, and I'm surprised that the ECB hasn't acted on its own sooner.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sorry, didn't mean imply that I think intervention is a bad thing. Heck
what I think doesn't really matter one little bit. My point was that they continue to preach we must let the markets work on their own to the public, while enabling currency intervention behind the doors. The BoJ intervention has been propping the dollar up, which does in help the Euro. Thing is, it's not only the BoJ that's been intervening.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Japan's not propping up the dollar because they're altruists,
They're doing it because they're economy depends almost entirely on exports.

If the yen lost 20% against the dollar this year like the euro did, Japan would have been back deep in recession. They need to keep their exports cheap in the US market.

They're doing this to help Japan, not the US.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes, I realize that. And China will not float their currency until they
are damn good and ready as that will hurt their economy as well. So they stay pegged to the dollar. The BoJ says they have a floating currency, but by constantly intervening in the markets they too have pegged their currency to the dollar. Seems the EU is the only one playing by the rules. Bushco just seems to think the whole world should be willing to pay for our debt. What can I say, he's an asshole.

There are a lot of important meetings coming up now. Shrubs got the SOTU union next week, so I'm sure the dollar will miraculously remain stable until then. Couple weeks later there's the G7, that will be followed up with them (and a few others) going to the IMF to request sanctions against the US regarding the Byrd resolution and tariffs. The US is in deep doo-doo over the buck. It's days as the worlds reserve currency are probably coming to an end. That will take time.

What will take it's place? I dunno, my guess and what I've gleaned from research as that it will be the Euro or a basket of currencies as a temporary fix. Down the road, they are discussing the idea of currency zones, based around trading partners. In the meantime, I think everyone is just going to suck it up and hope for the best. The world really does not like the US much right now, and it's got to be killing them to have to help and hope like hell our economy turns around as it is also in their best interest. Once their economies get a stronger footing you damn well better believe they will want to find a replacement for the US fiat buck. And simply replacing it with the Euro which is another fiat buck is not going to be the long-term plan.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I've never bought into that argument,
I don't think politics is going to be thrust onto international monetary policy as much as many seem to. Especially after bush gets thrown out in November.

Its in the world's best interest to keep the USD stable. That's why the G7 is going to work to put a floor under the dollar next month. I'd look for the ECB to cut interest rates in the near future as well.

I think the status quo will be maintained for quite a long time. And while some country's may not like being dependent upon the US for economic growth, we represent a third of world output, and we buy more goods and services from foreigners than any other country by a longshot, and this is not going to change anytime soon.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
28.  Another pessimist who can not see any other why to live other than that o
Suburbia will die off, Suburbia is the most oil intensive part of the US. In most of Suburbia you can not go ANYWHERE except by car, and cars run by oil.

Not lets look at some of his other “errors”, First Peak oil will not dry up oil, oil will be pumped for another 150 years. During that time period it will become more and more expensive and people will have to adjust to it higher expense (i.e. by quit using it or using it more efficiently). This is turn will reduce demand. This will happen over and over again during the decline of oil. For example in 1997 Oil Prices approached $2.00 a gallon. At $2.00 a gallon gasoline became to expensive for poor people in the far east to buy. The Far East demand for oil dropped and so did the price, it fact the demand drop was so severe that in the US price dropped in some states below 90cents a gallon.

Such price moves will become quite common after Peak. For example, a Person in the US earing Minimum Wage ($5.15 per hour) earns just over $10,000 a year ($5.15x40hoursx52weeks = $10,712). If he lives in Public Housing he has to spend 30% of his income for rent and Utilities. That is about $3,000 per year (or $250 per month). He has to pay Social Security Taxes (7%), local taxes (about 2%) and state income Taxes (Another 1% based on his low income) that is another $1000 out of his pocket. He has to eat, assuming $2 a meal (and that is CHEAP), 3 meals a day, 365 days a year equals $2190. (We are assuming he lives alone, has no children and pays no child support). IF we total these figures $3000 for housing, $1000 for Taxes, $2190 for food that totals $6190 out of his $10,000. That leaves $3810 for all other expenses including an automobile so he can drive to work.

If we assume a car that gets 20mpg and he drives the insurance average of 15000 miles per year, that means he needs 750 gallon of Gasoline each year to go to work. If we assume $810 for insurance and upkeep of the Vehicle he has $3000 left over to buy his gasoline. He can do it at a dollar a gallon (that is only $750 per year), he can do it at $2.00 a gallon (that is $1500 a year) he might be even able to do it at $3.00 a gallon (that is $2250 per year) but at $4.00 a gallon he does not have the money to buy the gas to get to work.

What does out Minimum wage worker do than? While he can’t buy gas so he is fired from his job. Once he is fired he no longer needs to drive so he does not need his 750 gallons, thus his demand for gasoline drops. As more and more people fall into his situation (i.e. no longer able to buy gasoline) the demand for gasoline will drop (along with its price). As the price drops some people will be again able to buy gasoline, but many of the people who could not while gasoline was high would have lost their cars do to lack of work and with those cars their demand for gasoline.

In many ways what I outlined above happened in the Far East in the late 1990s. The Far East could not longer afford gasoline causing a demand to drop, leading to a drop in price. As the Price Dropped, many people who had used gasoline earlier would not use gasoline again. Either through adopting of a gasoline less lifestyle or some other accommodation to the loss of gasoline.

The same thing will happen in the US once the price of Gasoline goes up. People will adjust to a gasoline less lifestyle as much as possible thus leading to long periods of low(er) prices as people live that style. If the Government was smart it would than tax the Gasoline back up to its peak price to encourage such lifestyle (and use the revenue to transform society to such life styles) but I do not see our Government doing that until the price had gone up and down 4-5 times and people start to demand some sort of stable price (people will pay a premium for price stability, how else do you think Standard Oil was able to become the Monopoly is was in the 1800s).

As you can we I think the first stop will be again at about $2.00 a gallon (provided Bush does not so de-stabilized the Dollar so that it is no longer used to buy oil, but that is a different, but interrelated problem) i.e. when the Far East again drops out (But I do not see this to be much a a stop given the lack of increase demand in the Far East since 1997). The next stop will be $4-5 a gallon i.e. when poor Americans can no longer afford to buy Gasoline. How can Walmart keep its employees if the employees can no longer get to work?

The answer to the question LONG TERM, is Walmart can not unless it either moves its workers closer to its stores, or move the stores closer to its workers. Ether way it is the death of the Suburbs. Either the Suburban shopping area becomes the equivalent of the old Down Towns (With Apartments for the Working being built in OVER the existing parking lots) or Walmart will abandoned them and head for areas closer to their workers. I.e. the old inner city.

People will have to do the same. Distant Suburbs will be the first to go. The Further you are from your work the longer the commute, this commute will become to long given that Bicycling the only variable short term alternative to the Automobiles. Sooner or later it will come down to can one bike to and from work from your home? If no, the home or work will have to be abandoned. Even today in most inner cities most things are within one hour bike ride. Most people do not bike because of the heavy car traffic, but Gasoline at $5 a gallon, biking will come back. The older Suburbs will go one of two ways, if close (and easy bike ride to) a city center, they will survive, if to far the suburb will be abandoned. One hour seems about the limit. Please note what I mean by City Center is something like the old Down-towns, AND what many Malls will become after they start to build housing for their workers. I see the Malls building the Apartments before Walmart type stores, and doing a better job of becoming a “Urban Center”. It is these “Urban Centers” where I see most people living during the decline of oil (and the post-oil era as while). The Urban Centers will be areas where people can get together and interact with the smallest amount of energy usage. I see LRVs and Trains connecting the Urban Centers together, but it will be the Urban Centers where people will come tegether and make exchanges.

As to Farming, people today do not remember the high food prices of the early 1970s. It was these high prices that killed the “Green stamps” and other programs, people wanted lowest possible prices. Many people had gardens during that time period, even in the cities. Such Gardens will come back as the price of Food goes up.

Those Suburbs to far from the new “Inner Cities” will return to farmland, maybe even farmlands visited by its owner once or twice a week (i.e. two hour bike ride to check the crop on one’s days off your regular job). Many of these crops will be sold locally. Today’s Large Farms will just break up. The main source of increase productivity has not only been the addition of oil and natural gas derivatives, but the removal of labor (Both animal and human). With oil and Natural gas gone the only real alternative is horse and plow and that is limited to very small farms. Thus the large farms will revert to the size farms they were around 1900. But this will take time, for Farming is the closest thing to pure capitalism that exists (i.e. every year, every change in the price of oil will determine if a farm is profitable or not. Once it is no longer profitable it will be broken up to farmers with horses who will barely survive on them till prices stabilizes at the end of all oil.

Another factor is that there are hillsides today used as pasture simple because to use a tractor on them would topple the tractor. In the 1800s these areas were farms by Horse and plow and if the price of food gets to high can be again.

A Third Factor is the increase use of Bio-mass as a fuel. Bio-mass will become the fuel of the future, it may costs $10-20-50 a gallon, but some people will have to use it for nothing else will be able to operate a car engine, and for certain things such engines will still be in demand. To fuel these engines (For things like ambulances and emergency generators etc) the only viable fuel is bio-mass. I can see a farmer hauling his load of bio-mass fuel (Distilled on his property from his crop) to the local Inner City so that the Ambulances could run (and the Military could still operate some ships).

I could go on, but My point here was two, First, that we do have time to change to a post-oil society, about 150 years, it is the change that will be rough but we do have time.

Second, a post-oil Society will NOT be the same as a Pre-oil Society. For example we will still have the roads made during the age of oil, Bicycles can best exploit those roads. Computers use electricity, but are more efficient today than ever. It may be more energy efficient to store all of our information on Computers than books (with books, weight being a huge energy costs to produce, and transport compared to computer’s weight storing the same level of information). Thus my point, we are going into a post-oil age, not some sort of permanent dark age. Life will change (may even change to the better), they may be less people in 150 years than now but the drop will not be do to some massive famine do to lack of oil (But more likely drop down as people do not have children during rough times and than die of old age without heirs).

The next 150 years will be interesting, but not some huge Dark Age, unless you want it to be.
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Things will change because they must...
Suburbia was a big mistake. We ripped up the beginnings of a great mass transit infrastructure to make way for the car and bus.

The past 30 years have compounded the errors as sprawl has become epidemic. Commutes have increased dramatically.

None of it makes much sense. The shame is nothing was learned from the energy crisis of the '70s.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Highly unlikely
The answer to the question LONG TERM, is Walmart can not unless it either moves its workers closer to its stores, or move the stores closer to its workers. Ether way it is the death of the Suburbs. Either the Suburban shopping area becomes the equivalent of the old Down Towns (With Apartments for the Working being built in OVER the existing parking lots) or Walmart will abandoned them and head for areas closer to their workers. I.e. the old inner city.

You may note many Wal-Marts are in the middle of nowhwere. It was part of their master plan. Read Sam Walton's autobio. for serious info on this. He's dead and gone and they've veered from his course somewhat but not in this particular area. It would be to their great detriment and they know this.

Suburbia isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I can buy a house, a real nice house for under 200,000 in outlying areas in many states. Complete with land. There are many likeme who will not pay 500,000 for some rat-hole that is merely part of a building, no land.

Renewable energy will be brought to the fore to meet demand. Detroit is getting more serious about this because Japan is kicking our ass.

I disagree strongly with your scenario but do not have time right now to go into detail. I believe you have a realy dislike for suburbia (and it certainly has it's downsides) and that jades your views.

I mean no offense, I think you aren't seeing it very clearly is all.

Julie
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. I was trying to do a quick review
On a subject that can reach book length.

First lets look at your statement was to renewable. It has been estimated that the oil used in 2002 was the equivalent of over 400 years of sunlight. Bio-mass (i.e. renewables) just can not produce that level of fuel. Neither can solar, wind, water or even nuclear (and I know Nuclear is not renewable). Thus sooner or later no matter how efficient a vehicle becomes, you have to downgrade performance. Low performance cars will get the most out of high price fuel. If you have a choice between a 250mpg vehicle (top speed 25mph) and a 50mpg vehicle with a top speed of 50mph which would you take? Today with fuel at $1.59 most would take the later, but if fuel was $15 a gallon?

Remember the typical driver today drives 15,000 miles per year (Insurance Company estimate). Thus a 250mpg car will use 60 gallon a year (5 gallon a month). The 50mpg car will use 300 gallons a year (25 gallon per month). The costs to operate the 250mpg car at $20 per gallon is $5000 a year ($100 a month). That is in the ability of many people today to pay BUT ONLY WITH DOWNGRADED PERFORMANCE. 250mpg is also the absolute high on energy efficiency most cars will do only about 100-150mpg (Doubling the above costs).

If you look at a car today you will see a huge machine that not only has to propel its driver, but its engine, transmission and power train. Hybrid systems can reduce some of these items given that in a hybrid the engine becomes an electrical generator instead of a direct source of power (and thus eliminates the needs for a transmission, trans Axel , etc).

All you need in a hybrid is the Engine/Generator and an electrical motor around one or more wheels. If you keep performance down (For example plans on speeds no faster than 25mph) you can get even greater savings on weight i.e. much smaller engine/generator, fuel cells, and electrical drive motors.

Now you may say, prices will not get to $20 a gallon. I said it will, remember auto drivers are competing with trucks and trucks run on fuel and given their pay loads will never get milage like that above. To minimize their costs is why the inner cities I talked about will survive. I can see semi-trailers going along the interstates at a fast 10-15 mph (to minimize fuel usage) and it is these truckers that will set the price of fuel. They will pay whatever is needed and adjust their truck performance to reflect the high price. They will not like it, but they will do it.

The concern is even with these reduced performance machines, a direct use of bio-mass (i.e. as food) might be a better way to use the energy in the food. I.e. instead of converting the Food to Alcohol and use the alcohol to drive a vehicle, instead use the food directly to drive the vehicle i.e. a bicycle or a horse drawn wagon.

The main advantage of a car today is its perceived speed advantage over a bike (I use the term perceived greater speed for given modern congestion average speed is already lower than 25mph). If you lower speeds even more (to get higher mpgs) people will start to accept maybe biking is not that bad a deal.

Thus greater fuel efficiency can NOT get us out of our problems, Change of lifestyle has to occur. One of those life styles will be a return to small family farms. These tend to be efficient (as to energy usage). If farmers convert from tractors to horses the farms will have to be reduced in size to reflect the use of horses. Thus your statement that you want a home and some land will still exist as a way of life, but in a rural settings not a suburban one and on a small working farm as opposed to a large industrial one.

One last note, I have pointed this out before, the concept of an incentive trap. An Incentive trap is an economic term where it is NOT in society’s best interest for people to do what is in their best interests. Because of the trap you have a general economic decline. The classic case is one of Adam Smith referred to as the tragedy of the Commons. To many people have a right to put horses in a common area. If they do not put their horses in the commons, they get no benefit of the commons, but the commons can not support all the horses put in the commons leading to a decline in the commons. If any one person does not put his horses in the commons, not only does he get no benefit he has to replace what food his horses did get from the commons. On the other hand every one else’s horses gets the benefit of the first farmer NOT putting his horses in the commons. It is an incentive trap, it would be best for all to restrict ALL of the horses, but that can not be done, so each farmer put his horses into the commons, get the benefit he can and slowly ruin it for any use. This is the classic incentive trap. The solution is to have someone make a decision as to who and how many horses can go into the commons. That requires government Regulation (or in some circumstances religious taboos)
t
W are in such an incentive trap today as to oil. The more oil we use the worse it is for our long term economic health do to our dependence, but if any one person quit using oil all he does is help other and hurt himself. He no longer getting the benefit of the oil and saving it for use by people who are not making abt effort to save any now. Thus until Peak goes on the existing situation has to go on (I do not see the Government doing any form of Restriction).

As to you saying I hate Suburbs, I do not. My point was that they are not long term viable given high fuel prices. The alternative to the Car is the Bicycle and if you can not bike (and an one hour time limit seems to apply to bike commuting just like it does to car commuting) one hour to a place to work and shop and connect to the rails/truck lines of this country. I see many a suburb survive within a one hour bike ride of the nearest mall (provided the Mall has some sort of connection to the outside world via train/truck line. I am just trying to see what will happen over the next 150 years, it will reflect the decline in oil usage, but not to the extend stated in the first article I was responding to. Life will go on even in suburbia, but it will be different than 20th century suburban America.

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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Great review, slug
Peak Oil is a great big problem that will alter almost everything about society in time but some of these websites do a grave disservice to people trying to become aware of this problem. We're at the top of the curve right now, which means that prices will go in only one direction: up. Half the oil is still there so we have to make the necessary changes to ease the transition to a new energy paradigm. America is at the greatest disadvantage because our society is designed around the automobile. But with leadership we can start making the transition.

The first step is to throw the oil tycoons out of office!
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CaptainClark23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. If Happyslug has it in for suburbia
then I'd say you have it in for Cities, Julie!

Rat-hole? Four generations of my family have been born, raised, and died in those "rat-holes". It is no less a home than any McMansion or split-level ranch in planned subdivisions without character or history.

Don't want to get into a country-mouse/city-mouse thing with you Julie, just "rat-hole" got my dander up.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
39. Dollar rallied quite a bit this week.
Back around 1.23

Gold has taken a beating too, down to around $406 an ounce.
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