Quarter of Brits think Churchill was myth: poll

[arcos]

Source: AFP

LONDON (AFP) - Britons are losing their grip on reality, according to a poll out Monday which showed that nearly a quarter think Winston Churchill was a myth while the majority reckon Sherlock Holmes was real.

The survey found that 47 percent thought the 12th century English king Richard the Lionheart was a myth.

And 23 percent thought World War II prime minister Churchill was made up. The same percentage thought Crimean War nurse Florence Nightingale did not actually exist.

<snip>

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080204/od_afp/britainpeoplehistoryoffbeat;_ylt=AjOnAsBPRIsuEHLetxOGxkas0NUE

[architect359]

1. That can't be good... n/t

[Deep13]

2. *sigh* What would King Arthur think?

:(

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. LOL!

[Tyler Durden]

3. Why should WE be the only delusional nation on earth?

We still have them beat: I'll bet more than 23% of the US thinks that Bush actually WON the 2000 election, just for starters.

[Betty]

4. I didn't think they'd be as bad at history as we are.

the human race must be devolving now. It's all downhill from here.

[krkaufman]

42. Just wait a decade or two...

... and they'll think Harry Potter and Hogwarts were real. :)

[no_hypocrisy]

5. The 23 percent must be those born after 1965 and who immigrated to Britain after '65.

Otherwise, how do they explain his state funeral at Westminster Abbey in 1965?

[Art_from_Ark]

41. Even I remember that

And I was in America, and only knee-high to a grasshopper at the time.

I remember President Kennedy's funeral, too.

[Greeby]

6. That's what 30 years of Thatcherite government will do for ya

I spent my formative years amongst these idiots, so it doesn't suprise me (I dropped out of a failing school and put myself through college at 15, then on to the workforce just after I turned 17)

[autorank]

7. ...and there's a 95% correlation between that answer and support for bLiar?

Probably...

[krkaufman]

43. ha! Bliar. Can't believe I haven't seen that one before. n/t

[momster]

8. 23% of the Population

of *any* country are morons. We have people who aren't sure that the earth revolves around the sun for goodness' sake...not to mention all those people who believe that Santa Claus and God are the same being (who gives you goodies when you ask nicely). The best thing to do is pat them on their little pointed heads and *never* vote for them no matter who their father is.

[ck4829]

9. When people pass aroud fake quotes by him

Like that "Conservative before 30 and have no heart, Liberal after 30 and have no brain" thing, then I think some people might just think he's made up.

[kirby]

17. Your misquote is misquoted ;)

"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

What is relevant is obviously not true

Source: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=112

[Irishonly]

10. The Dumbing Down

has gone world wide. This is not good.

[redqueen]

15. Parents have to do it.

We can't depend on schools to teach our children everything. Critical thinking skills and a good grasp of history have NEVER been priorities in this country at least... and that's what's needed in order for the electorate to be able to self-govern.

They don't have to take our right to representation away if most people are too dumb to even understand what it means.

[donsu]

11. their schooling has turned as bad as ours - our students are so

dumbed down its scary.

[sinkingfeeling]

12. And I always believed the English had far superior educations then we did.

[nxylas]

13. That's not setting the bar very high

Actually, Scotland's educational system is supposed to be far superior to England's. Wonder what the percentages were there?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Not necessarily

In the past two years, I've had occasion to e-mail back and forth with a number of people in the UK (for work-related or travel-related reasons), as well as visiting there twice, and there seems to be a huge gap in people's command of written English.

On one end of the scale are people whose use of the English language is simply brilliant. On the other end are people who have only a hazy idea of punctuation, spelling, and grammar. Unlike here, there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground.

In the old days, kids took a test called the "Eleven Plus" at the end of the equivalent of elementary school. Those who passed were assumed to be capable of attending a university, and they went to a type of school known as a "grammar school." Those who failed were sent to a type of school called a "secondary modern school," where they studied mostly vocational subjects and left at 15. The kids who went to private schools were outside the system, and like here, the quality varied from awful to excellent.

That system was abolished in most parts of the country (I forget when), and the new secondary school model was called a "comprehensive," because everyone was supposed to go to it. Many believe that rather than raising the level of education for the kids who used to be sent to secondary modern schools, it has dragged down the level of education for the kids who used to be sent to grammar schools. For example, one English acquaintance told me that when he was in school, students were required to write an essay after each field trip, but his son just has to fill in the blanks on a worksheet.

So I guess the short answer is that like here, education in the UK is a mixed bag, ranging from excellent to dreadful. Also like here, economic factors play a huge role. When I was over there last year, I read an article claiming that the abolition of the grammar schools had lessened opportunities for poor students. Since the grammar schools were state-supported and didn't charge tuition, they offered a step up the social ladder for students who were bright but economically disadvantaged. Someone else claimed that the grammar schools that still exist are full of kids from affluent families.

[krkaufman]

44. Would I be wrong in guessing that the change was made during the Thatcher years? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Partly

According to the Wikipedia article, it was a gradual process, with a few experiments in the 1950s and gradually being implemented throughout England and Wales between 1965 and 1985.

One thing is clear: the school system there is REALLY complicated.

[krkaufman]

48. Looks like I would be wrong! : ) That's what I get for ASSuming. nt

[MarkR1717]

52. You would be wrong.

The Labour Government was entirely responsible for the abolition of the Grammar Schools. (I was lucky enough to go to one.) It is the Labour Governement and the Teaching Unions that are resposible for the atrocious state of Public Education in the UK.

I have three children who have been through the "Comprehensive" School system. None of them has ever been require to read a book in its entirety. None of them can write properly, and none of them has ever been required to write more than a few lines of text at a time.

Class envy cause the destruction of a world-class system, which gave equal opportunity to the poorest, to get the best education.

A classic example of mixing up good intentions with good outcomes.

[Nihil]

62. FWIW

I agree with a lot of your post but you have got too a broad brush ...

> I have three children who have been through the "Comprehensive" School
> system. None of them has ever been require to read a book in its entirety.
> None of them can write properly, and none of them has ever been required
> to write more than a few lines of text at a time.

There are/were good comprehensives and bad comprehensives, good teachers
and bad teachers. A lot of the "they destroyed the grammar schools" chat
is pure nostalgia for a supposedly Golden Age that wasn't quite like that.

I went through the comprehensive school system and I remember talking
through this with my parents many years later. They were concerned that
I was in the "guinea-pig" years for the comprehensive system whereas my
siblings had all been through grammar school. I achieved better results
than all of them at O level so my parents breathed a sigh of relief.
Interestingly enough though, my A levels were about the same.

The comprehensive that taught me to O level didn't have a sixth form so
I had to transfer to the grammar school for A levels ... and it simply
did not have the same quality of teaching staff for all of its good
and long-lived reputation.

I am glad that the concept of grammar schools was scrapped as it was
an elitist anachronism that kept up class barriers.

Mind you, I have to snigger at
> It is the Labour Governement and the Teaching Unions that are resposible
> for the atrocious state of Public Education in the UK.

Grammar school kid eh?
:P

[MarkR1717]

66. I think the anachronism....

...is the idea that all children regardless of ability, should take the same courses, and be taught to the same level. And you confirm the idea that the reason for the abolition of Grammar Schools was class envy. It is a shame, as much an act of vandalism as burning books in Alexandria.

As to your personal circumstances, I am glad you recovered from the chop at 11 plus stage, and there are many exceptions to the general rule, but that does not mean that there isn't a general rule.

About the spelling etc. I did realise that anyone making a counter argument would pick up on these as a diversion. I deliberately chose not to proof read due partly to lack of time, but also to test whether my expectation would be proved correct. Thick fingers and more haste less speed.

My current pet theory. I believe that education for boys aged 14-19 should be delayed till 19 plus, as in general, the toll of male adolescence on education is too high.

PS Nice smiley. Can you guess what this one is?

--|--

[Nihil]

69. Touchy blighter aren't you?

> It is a shame, as much an act of vandalism as burning books in Alexandria.

Talk about wild hyperbole ...!

> And you confirm the idea that the reason for the abolition of Grammar
> Schools was class envy.

Somewhat less so than you confirm that your "concern" is
>> pure nostalgia for a supposedly Golden Age that wasn't quite like that.

You also jumped to another conclusion:
> As to your personal circumstances, I am glad you recovered from the chop
> at 11 plus stage, ...

I took the 11+ and passed. I asked my parents not to send me to the grammar
school as that was the destination of the bullies in my year and, as most
of my friends were going to the comp, they recognised that some things are
more important than having the "posh school" on one's CV. But thanks anyway.

> About the spelling etc. I did realise that anyone making a counter
> argument would pick up on these as a diversion. I deliberately chose not
> to proof read due partly to lack of time, but also to test whether my
> expectation would be proved correct.

Pathetic excuse ... you "chose not to proof read" but "realised" that
your mistakes (that you hadn't proof read) would be useful to test for
"a diversion"? Bullshit.

> My current pet theory. I believe that education for boys aged 14-19
> should be delayed till 19 plus, as in general, the toll of male
> adolescence on education is too high.

You believe that boys should not be educated between 14-19?
What do you suggest that the uneducated boys should do in those years?
National service? Are you a Tory MP by any chance?

> PS Nice smiley. Can you guess what this one is?
> --|--

From your preceding paragraph I'd guess it represented your face ...
eyes tightly closed against the world ...
:shrug:

[NoPasaran]

14. On the other hand

One Hundred percent still know that Yoko Ono broke up the Beatles.

[Indy Lurker]

16. Maybe everyone is tired of goofy poll questions N/T

[pschoeb]

18. Survey was done by UKTV Gold, so maybe this isn't all Brits

just a survey of their viewers? They show reruns of old BBC shows, if it just a survey of their viewers the results are not that surprising.

[Zynx]

19. Stupidity is hardly limited to this country.

At Madison I have heard foreign students say remarkably stupid things about even their own counties' histories.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. True

Back in the days when people were talking about Japan taking over the world, I saw an article that seriously suggested that Japanese people must be more intelligent than Westerners.

Having just returned from a trip there, I had to laugh. I recalled a train trip I had made, sitting across the aisle from four young women whose entire conversation was the Japanese equivalent of'

"And I was like, oh my God, you know..."
"Really"
"It was just so, you know, and then he goes,'Whatever...'"
"Shit, that really sucks."
"Yeah, big time."
Each utterance followed by hysterical giggles.

It's true that their culture respects academic achievement, but having lived and traveled there over the past thirty years, I can state unequivocally that Japan has its full share of stupid people.

[NashVegas]

59. Academic Achievement Is A Misleading Factor

In the last 25 years, achieving high grades has been more a matter of strategy for business success than self-improvement.

[Pacifist Patriot]

21. On the other hand, given the dry British wit....

I can so totally see many of them screwing with the pollsters. ;)

[boricua79]

22. that's almost as bad as thinking people in the U.S. don't have access to maps

and should worry about South Africa...really...like...yeah.

:)

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

23. Any British DUers care to weigh in? n/t

[LeftishBrit]

56. History is often badly taught in schools here..

See Sellars and Yeatman's "1066 And All That" for a not-too-inaccurate satire on how Brits were taught history until very recently (published in the 1930s but not too unfamiliar even to someone taught in the 70s!) More recently, some schools have escaped from the old-fashioned approach, only to go to a new extreme of not teaching concrete facts at all and just emphasizing the 'process' of learning about history.

Also confusion may occur because the British, more than some other nations, DO have a lot of popular legends about history. E.g. King Arthur probably existed in some form, but virtually all the stories about him are legends. Same for Robin Hood and his Merry Men. King Alfred was a solid historical character, but he almost certainly didn't burn the cakes! Etc. So someone who has forgotten most of their school history, and is suddenly faced with a character with the improbable name of 'Richard the Lionheart' may well assume that he was essentially a fictional character.

Treating Churchill as a myth is a bit weirder, I must admit.

But apart from anything else: never underestimate the British tendency to take the piss out of people doing odd surveys, and to respond to 'bloody silly questions' with 'bloody silly answers'.

[bkcc]

24. I can't decide...

Am I sad to hear the people of the UK are so daft?

OR

Am I happy to hear the UK has done something to make us look just a tad smarter than we should?

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. It's strange - the reporting of this varies across outlets

I think that 'UKTV Gold' just put out a press release, and they're each interpreting it however they feel like it. Whether the actual poll has been seen by anyone apart from UKTV Gold, I can't tell. Here's their page (this was done to support them starting to show 'Robin Hood'): http://uktv.co.uk/gold/stepbystep/aid/598605

Even that looks confused; they say

"Top ten historical figures that the British public thinks are myths
1) Richard the Lionheart – 47%
2) Winston Churchill – 23%
3) Florence Nightingale – 23%
..."

but also say "The research showed that the nation's under 20s are lacking the most when it comes to basic historical knowledge. Over one fifth (21%) thought Winston Churchill, arguably Britain's most famous Prime Minister, was a work of fiction, and over a quarter (27%) thought pioneering nurse Florence Nightingale was a mythical figure."

which would actually mean under 20s are better than the over 20s at realising Churchill was real. They don't say who did "the study, specially commissioned by UKTV Gold".

However, their 'fictional characters' include several who existed, but had their exploits magnified, or may have existed. Out of

"
Top ten fictional characters that the British public thinks are real

* 1) King Arthur – 65%
* 2) Sherlock Holmes – 58%
* 3) Robin Hood – 51%
* 4) Eleanor Rigby – 47%
* 5) Mona Lisa -35%
* 6) Dick Turpin – 34%
* 7) Biggles – 33%
* 8) The Three Musketeers – 17%
* 9) Lady Godiva – 12%
* 10) Robinson Crusoe – 5%"

#1 and #3 may have existed, but had vast stories made up about them; #5 and #6 did exist, for sure, though Turpin's 'story' was largely made up; Godiva is thought to have existed, but the 'riding naked' story was probably made up, and the 'striking Peeping Tom blind' bit was obviously made up; and Robinson Crusoe was fictional, but inspired by the real Alexander Selkirk.

All in all, it's mainly a PR release to get the name 'UKTV Gold' in the British headlines. And it's succeeded admirably at that. I find it hard to believe that only 3% though Charles Dickens was fictional, but 23% though Churchill was. That shows far better knowledge about Dickens than Churchill - if it was simple ignorance, I'd expect it to be more pervasive.

[Hannah Bell]

37. It's the same as here....

One of the regular release of "data" designed to make the general public believe that the REST of the general public is stupid.

The better to force "remedies" on us.

It's bullshit.

[BooScout]

25. Well part of Churchill was a myth....

An actor gave his radio addresses, so maybe that confused some people?

Considering the source is a UKTV Gold poll of 3000 people........I'd like to know if they were their viewers or just a random sampling. If it was just their viewers that would explain a lot.

[Hugabear]

26. Sixty years from now, many Americans may think Bush was a myth

They'll find it hard to believe that someone so incredibly stupid and evil could have risen to power in this country.

[sofa king]

49. ...or a divine being.

We're lucky he was so stupid, but the people who put him in place aren't. And don't forget Saint Ronnie.

[NutmegYankee]

28. That ranks right up there with the "can't find the US on a map" poll. n/t

[ElboRuum]

29. NEW POLL!

Do you lie, prevaricate, or otherwise give goofy answers to poll questions simply because you are amused that someone gets paid to listen to it and has to write it down?

Mark the appropriate circle (No. 2 pencil only)

O - Pez
O - Piccadilly Circus
O - Omelette du fromage
O - Highlander V: The Grovelling
O - Ode to a small piece of green putty I found in my armpit last Tuesday evening

[ElboRuum]

30. Bonus Points:

Give yourself +10,000,000 bonus points if your monitor now has a pencil mark on it.

[Zorra]

31. Kill your television. n/t

[Javaman]

33. kind of gives me hope. It shows we aren't the only country that has

cornered the market on stupid.

[jus_the_facts]

65. I don't have the exact statistics but there's a MOVEMENT to deny we ever went to the MOON....

...it was ALL faked by HOLLYWOOD and the actual astronauts were brainwashed into believing they really did go. :crazy:

GOOGLE: 1 - 30 of about 148,000 English pages for fake moon landings apollo missions faked


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=fake+moon+landings+apollo+missions+faked+

[redqueen]

34. I hope people realize this was a poll of 3000 people...

done by a tv station.

So...

[Hannah Bell]

38. No doubt very carefully conducted,

with a statistically valid sample & precautions to prevent people from hitting the computer button twice.

What's really amazing is how many of the public are ready to believe that their peers are so ignorant. Jeez, we're so DUMB! We need (the British equivalent of charter schools, NCLB, whatever remedy for our "dumbness" our masters have selected).

It's bullshit. We're fed it regularly.

Do you think 40% of the US thinks FDR was a myth?

Churchill outlived FDR.

Jeez.

[depakid]

39. Ding, ding ding- we have a winner!

Ironically, many of those who laugh at the purported ignorance of others in these cheap media polls swallow the "results" themselves- hook, line & sinker.

With nary a second thought.

[TrogL]

36. I watched his funeral on TV

I don't normally watch funerals of fictional characters.

[mcscajun]

40. Okay, so Nobody's learning History anymore.

The verdict is in. We're all doomed to repeat it.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

45. They probably surveyed viewers of Baywatch.

The station's program lineup is on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKTV_Gold

[krkaufman]

46. Link to original survey...

http://uktv.co.uk/gold/stepbystep/aid/598605

[legin]

50. There are problems with the mainstream media reporting facts

I think.

A recent case of the scaming by the british MP Conway:

How much :

According to the Daily Telegraph £250,000

According to the Daily Mail £1.5m

[Sabriel]

51. His parrot just died recently, didn't it?

I suppose it was his mythological parrot?

Oh, wait, it was, actually....

[Duppers]

53. I don't believe this

I lived there in the early 90's and no one I met was this stupid.

[cottonseed]

54. This country's Republican party thought Reagan could fly.

Every country's got some.

[AnneD]

55. Well stab me in the heart and twist the knife around....

you mean they lied to me in Nursing School.:sarcasm: I guess they found these folks at the same place they interview some of our 'winners'.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

57. seems like a spurious dodgy poll

[superconnected]

58. Don't feel too bad Britian, a quarter of Americans think W is doing a good job.

[treestar]

60. They really are Americanizing

I noted they had similar obsessions with weight and other shallow issues.

Or maybe, it is just that we are their descendants, and we are the ones copying them.

[Norrin Radd]

61. Paddington Bear is real though. n/t

[freedomnorth]

63. Too much Tell-a-Vision obviosly. nt.

[bitchkitty]

64. They must have cable! n/t

[yurbud]

67. Churchill was a triumph of early CGI. It took a computer the size of a football stadium to draw him

[kestrel91316]

68. WTF is wrong with Brits and Americans and their total lack of

knowledge about the world they live in??????? Don't tell me our cousins across the pond are hooked on "Dancing With the Stars" and "The Biggest Loser", too???

Oy. My brain hurts.