FBI wants palm prints, eye scans, tattoo mapping

[derby378]

Source: Cable News Network (CNN)

The FBI is gearing up to create a massive computer database of people's physical characteristics, all part of an effort the bureau says to better identify criminals and terrorists.

...

The bureau is expected to announce in coming days the awarding of a $1 billion, 10-year contract to help create the database that will compile an array of biometric information -- from palm prints to eye scans.

Kimberly Del Greco, the FBI's Biometric Services section chief, said adding to the database is "important to protect the borders to keep the terrorists out, protect our citizens, our neighbors, our children so they can have good jobs, and have a safe country to live in."

But it's unnerving to privacy experts.


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/02/04/fbi.biometrics/index.html

[xultar]

1. I'm gonna get a new tattoo around my asshole just for the occasion.

[derby378]

2. Don't tell me you're gonna comply?

If the FBI wants my fingerprints, let 'em get my prints CSI-style. A resealable sandwich bag, a tube of Krazy Glue, and the glass I used at the last restaurant I ate at.

Hmmm. Should've worn gloves there.

[xultar]

5. They wanna send someone over to study my asshole fine with me. Best action I'll

have had in years.

[Fridays Child]

13. Oh, poo.

;)

[Hugin]

4. Good answer!

:rockon:

:D

[Auggie]

50. Thanks for the idea

:rofl:

[vanboggie]

77. Ass-tats

The industry that saves the US Economy :evilgrin:

[Seabiscuit]

81. Ass-tats to confound the ass-hats.

[vanboggie]

82. Good one!

[roguevalley]

162. Oh god, xultar. That is sooo funny. :-D I however will never comply.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

167. This one?

M*M

[XemaSab]

210. If it says PWNED I'll offer to pay for it

:D

[applegrove]

3. I think it a good idea. Think of the criminals who will not commit a crime for fear

of being caught. Think of all the victims it will help either by avoiding a crime or by giving them justice. I think it is a glorious idea.

[derby378]

9. Think of all the innocent people apprehended because of computer glitches

Remember the first 15 minutes from that Terry Gilliam movie Brazil? Now multiply that times at least a thousand.

[applegrove]

11. They use fingerprinting already. The iris scan will likely be used for

international travellors. I just would feel more secure if they through at criminals everything they got. Just my life experience that brings me to this way of looking at the world. Not for everyone. But for me - I think it will do wonders. Think how many innocents have been freed from prison since they use DNA these days. People go to jail who are wrongfully convicted all the time. Better that the police have more information than less.

[reggie the dog]

30. as a criminal

I find your anti criminal talk offensive. MOST CRIMINALS HARM NO ONE. MOST CRIMINALS JUST USE CANNABIS!!!! THE ONLY CRIMES MOST CRIMINALS COMMITT ARE POSSESSION OF CANNABIS AND POSSESSION OF DRUG PARAPHERNALIA. Why do you want the cops to throw everything they have got at non violent people who hurt no one, do no damage to the country, and do noting to you?

When you talk tough about criminals do not forget that the VAST MAJORITY of criminals are the millions of cannabis users in the USA.

[applegrove]

31. Canabis isn't that big a deal. But what about the meth dealers. Do they

hurt someone?

Obviously virus scans are for airports. I worked in one and I had to have a virus scan done to work there. No big deal. I have nothing to hide. Fingerprints are already is wide use. It will just be wider. Doubt they will catch one cannabis dealer with a virus scan or a palm print. So you have no worries there.

[reggie the dog]

38. meth dealers hurt no one

People freely choose to use drugs. They hurt themselves. In my mind there is no difference between someone selling tobacco at a gas station and someone selling meth. People should be free to poison themselves if they want to. But that is beside the point, my point was that the VAST MAJORITY of criminals are simply people who smoke weed. Also why should your employer know your medical history? In the USA they tell my medical history to everyone, here in France it is a secret between my doctor and myself. Why the virus scans? Are they going to limit the travel of HIV + people?

[Missy Vixen]

106. Sure meth dealers "hurt no one"

What about minor kids living in the same domicile? Yeah, that never happens.

I'd also like to bring up those who were unfortunate enough to buy property or a home in the same neighborhood as someone who moves in after the fact and decides to set up their very own manufacturing plant. We live in a rural area. You think I haven't thought about what could happen to our biggest asset if we have to deal with one of these SOB's who wants to relocate and do a little business, perhaps?

Meth manufacturers and dealers endanger everyone around them. Please don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Julie

[applegrove]

137. I agree.

[reggie the dog]

158. selling or making?

selling is not dangerous for the kids like brewing it is. The nature of making it is so dangerous of a chemical proces that it should be done in industrial areas not residential areas.

[Missy Vixen]

160. Oh, gosh, then why doesn't everyone do it?

>selling is not dangerous for the kids like brewing it is.<

Sure it's not. There are no crimes committed by or against meth dealers, are there?

I am really beginning to wonder about some of the people that frequent this website. If you don't think there is a gigantic problem with anyone involved in the manufacturing, selling or use of meth (a drug that is fiendishly addictive, deadly and illegal,) then I wonder about you, too. Let's leave out the illegality for a moment. The human cost of addiction to it is staggering. To endorse the use or sale of it is nothing short of idiotic.

Julie

[reggie the dog]

164. I never endorsed it

I just dont think it is criminal. Adults can freely poison themselves with fast food, tobacco and alcohol, so why not with other drugs?

I honestly do not see the big problem with it. Only a tiny percentage of people use it atlthough it is not hard to find. I really dont care if people want to use speed although it does not appeal to me. Were it legal it would be purity regulated and most likley come in pill form. This would mean that users would have less damage to their bodies and teeth and would pay sales tax, dealers would pay tax on their profit and a license tax, and manufacturers would pay taxes too while being forced to open shop in industrially zoned areas in order to remain legal. Crime would be reduced as dealers would become stores and when store owners were robbed their insurance would pay them back so they would not go looking for a vengence killing.

[Gormy Cuss]

39. Please post your photo, your Social Security Number, your DOB, your address, et cetera.

After all, you have nothing to hide.
If you're unwilling to post all of that here, perhaps it's because you wish to hide some information some of the time. In our society so far that's been the norm -- an expectation of the right to privacy as long as one is acting lawfully. The FBI's proposal is to store biometric data on many Americans who have done nothing wrong. Why? Well, just in case they do something wrong later, like commit a crime or tick off law enforcement or a politician. Sorry, but that's not a good enough reason for me to submit biometric data to the FBI.

If you think that these biometrics won't be used on lower order lawbreakers like small time pot dealers, you're going to be in for a rude awakening should the FBI develop this broad database. If anything, more minor lawbreakers will be apprehended and pushed through the law enforcement system because they'll be the easiest bunch to arrest and convict. Meanwhile, people will still be assaulted and murdered by people who just don't care about getting caught.

[iaviate1]

109. What airports are doing virus scans?

And what are they screening you for? HIV? And you don't see a problem with that?

[ooglymoogly]

177. Gosh applegrove I become more embarrassed for you at every post

You may disregard the thousands and thousands of kids in prison doing hard time with murderers and cutthroats for possessing dope and hurting no one and trying desperately to assume this is not what is in fact happening in America today. Meth of course is another matter and deserves our attention but not the attention of law enforcement. What we need least of all is more layers of harassing people for big brother.

[applegrove]

186. You can disagree with me without labeling me.

[ooglymoogly]

196. you see applegrove you have just proven the point of many of the

posts on this thread that disagree with you. You think it quite all right for the FBeye to label everyone with palm prints and retina scans so that they can be put in a particular slot that might at somebodies whim become illegal and therefore arrestable, but when it comes to you, you do not like to be labeled even on a harmless site like this one. You're beginning to sound a lot like the pug trolls who hang out on this site because their own are so childish, trite,boring and hypocritical.

[applegrove]

198. By labeling me I meant that you were calling me a name "an embarrasment" in order

to get me to change my behaviour. I simply have different views that you. You don't need to change my opinion. You just state that your opinion differs - state why and then we move on. The discussion ends there or perhaps continues.

[ooglymoogly]

202. imagine for a moment that I am the uber ales, the unchallenged furor of all I survey

I am paranoid to the max as most authoritarian rulers are and you have blundered on to this site which is a trap I have set for you, a kind of retina and personality scan so that I can identify you from the crowd, a way of pigeon holing you and imagine that to me your views are suspect and a danger to my absolute rule because they differ from my own. I now need only get your IP and send the constabulary to arrest you and haul you off to a concentration camp for people I disagree with and therefore pose a danger to my absolute rule, for as an authoritarian no matter how loony, I can broach no disagreement with my delusional conception of reality. So the only things I need to Identify you are a retina scan and a way to pigeon hole your views to nail you with.

[applegrove]

203. I don't see such a distopian society in your or my future. The pendulum

is swinging back and the neocons are on the run. We simply have different fears. I think the iris scans are for use in airports and other already very secure sites. I'm just not worried about the future you describe. And I'm sorry if that offends you but that is how I see it.

[rasputin1952]

126. Think about this for just a moment...you are in a "data base",

everyone is, and you look like someone that a computer decided you had close to the same characteristics as someone else, suddenly, you disappear off the street. no one knows where you are, not your spouse, SO, kids, mother, father...no one. you are detained because you "might" be a person who "may" be a suspect, all based on some software somewhere.

You luck out, and can prove you are not the person that "matched", but now, there is even more data on you, who controls this data? Who makes up for the job you lost because you couldn't call in because you were being interrogated? Who takes the fear from those who love you? You did nothing wrong, but you have been accused of being a suspect.

As for those who have been exonerated by DNA, they had lawyers that pushed relentlessly for the DNA, most of those who are incarcerated and are innocent, do not have lawyers, they languish in prison because they are either too poor to get a lawyer, or a lawyer who might take the case doesn't even know they exist. Procuring DNA evidence is a lengthy process, you are challenging a court in it's decision, something most judges are not particularly fond of. Not just that, but evidence is often destroyed after a conviction.

As for this being a deterrent to crime, if deterrents worked, we'd live in a Utopia. the thing is, deterrents don't work, that is why there are still murders, burglaries, thefts, rapes and a host of other crimes. I have no problem with a criminal being brought to trial, none at all...it is the closest thing we have to Justice, (that's a whole 'nother discussion), but for an agency to just gather up information on citizens is the red flag that everyone should see. The ultimate scenario is when people start to realize their neighbors and friends or worse yet, their family members are carted off, taken away...perhaps never to be seen again.

This is a bad idea.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

190. No, wait, let me guess.

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, right?

[applegrove]

197. I fear criminals (not in general). I fear terrorists will try and blow up a subway in Canada.

That is what I fear. I fear people getting hurt. I want the police to be able to update the tools they use to combat crime according to the times.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

206. I'll parse the meaningless platitudes and take that as a yes. -nt

[applegrove]

207. yes.

[OwnedByFerrets]

122. Brazil becomes more and more relavent...

much to our dismay.

[kestrel91316]

10. Yeah. And think of how easy it will become for the powers that be to

frame members of the political opposition for some alleged crime.

Those who are willing to give up their freedom for a little security deserve neither freedom nor security.

[applegrove]

12. I'm a law and order babe. Life experience has brought me to this point.

Just the way I see the world. I think the police are better off with more information rather than less.

[xxqqqzme]

18. then by all means give them all

your personal information - fingers, nose, eyes, lips, teeth....Me? They can't have anymore than they already do (and I'm trying to figure out ways to give them less.)

'.... "Fingerprints will still be the big player," Bush, assistant director of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division, told CNN.

But he added, "Whatever the biometric that comes down the road, we need to be able to plug that in and play."....'


Play? plug in and PLAY??? The dumbing down of American proceeds...we now have joy stick jockeys keeping us safe from criminals & tear-wrists.

[kestrel91316]

20. If they want private info about me, they can damned well ask a judge

for a subpoena, provided they have PROBABLE CAUSE. You know, that business in the Constitution about "unreasonable search and seizure"?

I know, I know, the Constitution has such quaint, old-fashioned and out-of-date notions in it.

You might want to read Caroline Kennedy's book The Right to Privacy.

[treestar]

51. True, law and order folks often overlook that as though the cops

can't do anything unless they have everything.

Even a few unsolved cases are better than giving up our freedom. As Ben Franklin said.

[grace0418]

29. Rent Gattica some time.

More information in the hands of the wrong people (i.e. BushCo) will do more harm than good.

[alarimer]

41. I guess you'd have been a good German then.

This fascist crap has to stop. And we do not need you enabling the criminals in charge of the FBI.

[applegrove]

43. Oh boy. Do you really think there are criminals in charge of the FBI?

[treestar]

52. Do you really think they are all angels?

And always, all of them will always be fair?

The Founding Fathers did not agree with you. That's why they made the warrant requirement.

[vanboggie]

55. And do you believe in the Easter Bunny?

Chimp 'n Cheney are in charge, you know. Just sayin...

[applegrove]

68. Yup Cheney and Bonzo are in charge. But only for another year.

[vanboggie]

78. I'll only believe it when it happens n/t

[superconnected]

161. Frankly I'm stunned by your comments.

A few books you may want to read:

#1 above all else, The social Contract by Rosseau - it explains the foundation of all governments and also explains that the people elected will always abuse privilige, end up being run by the rich, and try to take over. It's in their best interest.

2. Orwells 1984.
3. Orwells animal farm - not like 1984 but explains the abuse by the people in charge.
4. Atwells the handmaids tale - not like the movie, the movie was glorification of sex the book was politically oriented and inspired from what atwell saw happen in afghanistan when women lost their rights - yes they were very westernized and we even had the olympics there in the 80's, women wore short dresses etc. and it was all taken away.

It would help if you examine the progress of antisemitism with the nazis and the major abuses that could follow with just having the information of what tatoos people have should this ever become a facist (insert any religion) state. Or even if we become a facist rw country where we have no tolerance for liberals or their tatoos.

Those amendments are there to protect us in the future. There is severely higher thought given to them than the immediate "police could use the information to catch crimials." I certianly hope you start investigating the higher reasoning behind those amendments. Had we not had them we would have been a completely facist state by now. You are suggesting we get rid of them and that naievity is scary. It's exactly the mentality our forefathers warned us to be vigilant against.

[vanboggie]

173. ?

OK, I have the flu and am therefore my brain's not up to par, but I don't understand why my statement stuns you. Were you perhaps responding to another post? If not, then you expect the people who took this country over in a nonviolent coup to give up that power willingly? If Bush & Cheney don't try to retain power, it only means their replacements are bought and paid for and ready to step in. Different players, same situation, same people pulling the strings.

I have read the books you mention. Sorry I'm cynical, but with the powers they have abused and the happy camps they have built, I am not comfortable about the future of our government. If the other abuses don't take it down, economic disaster could - sadly.

[superconnected]

180. Yes, I replied to the wrong post. I was replying to the gal that has no problem

with giving over eye scans etc.

I think you should have been able to tell that by my post though.

[derby378]

165. Even if they do leave DC voluntarily...

...their stench will pervade the halls of government for some time. What we need is a decisive housecleaning that will purge the neo-cons from government completely.

When Nixon was forced to resign, his compatriots managed to keep a foothold in our government and broaden their inflence over the next 20 years. This must not be allowed to repeat itself.

And I think part of the solution is to take a hardline approach to the Fourth Amendment. It's your life, your body, and your privacy, and I'd rather we keep it that way.

[alarimer]

88. Absolutely

If not criminals, then fascists.

They do not have our best interests at heart. They want to treat everyone as a potential criminal.

Remember J. Edgar Hoover? I know he's dead now but the culture he created at the FBI still lives. They amassed files on thousands of war protesters and celebrities for years, simply because they did not like their politics. As far as I am concerned the FBI is the enemy.

[varelse]

111. Oh my god

and I thought the first reply to this thread made it worthy of a DUzy! You're killing me here LOL.

I'm a "law and order babe" myself - and here's a sample of the law the highest law of this land (yes, even NOW):

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Peace <3

[RaleighNCDUer]

117. There have been in the past. Why not now?

Hoover FRAMED MLK to attempt to prove he was being paid by soviet russia to stir up blacks and start a race war. When that didn't work, the FBI blackmailed him, cooking up phony sex tapes that they threatened to release to his wife and the public, to destroy his reputation. Then, there's the illegal war against the Black Panthers, where FBI Cointelpro agents not only incited Panther members to acts of violence, but provided weapons, money and logistical support to entrap them in illegal acts, then MURDERED them.

Information is power and power corrupts.

[moggie]

130. And why not in the future?

Those who argue that current government and law enforcement can be trusted are ignoring the fact that handing over biometric data now makes it available to future administrations. Iris scans remain valid pretty much for life, I think. Nobody can predict what abuses future administrations may be guilty of.

[Irreverend IX]

119. Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover

I don't think much has changed since that guy's time.

[treestar]

48. There are many countries you could go to

The old Soviet Union is gone. But there must be someplace.

We'd rather take our chances here, and live in freedom, thank you.

[vanboggie]

57. That's something I haven't seen on DU till now

A fellow DU'er is telling us to leave the country? There was a time that only the BushBots did that. I'm truly shocked - and no, that's not sarcasm.

[applegrove]

69. It's okay. I take no offense. I'm Canadian anyway. But my internet

is under surveillance because legally the US government can require American corporations to hand over foreign emails and such. I'm okay with that. If they can catch the few suicide bombers lurking in Ontario because they do it - so be it.

[vanboggie]

79. I don't agree

Freedom is worth much more to me than a little safety. That used to be what the U.S. was all about. Sadly, those principles are disappearing to comply with the neo-con agenda.

[applegrove]

84. I hate neocons as much if not more than the next guy. What does Iris

scans for airports and palm prints have to do with the neocon agenda? You must be afraid they will go after their political enemies using an iris scan and a palm print. That is all very Ghattica. I happen to believe the neocons are out of favour and hog tied right now. Just hold our noses and wait for this year to end and they will be gone. But crime and international crime. That is something I'd like to see more tools applied to.

[vanboggie]

85. I hope you're right

I don't expect them to go away that easily.

[zonmoy]

92. but the powers that propped them and every other fascist movement

are still out there. still manipulating events and both parties to bring about their dream of global fascist empire.

[fenriswolf]

113. here is a question

how many people do you think have been caught in warrentless wiretapping? how many terrorists have been apprehended by it? I'll tell you....none, if one had it would have been blasted all over the news. More personal information in the governments hands does not make us safe, it just makes it easier for the government to monitor us. I do not do anything harmfully to anyone but what if These biometrics get so sensitive they can monitor the state your in? What if I smoke a joint in the privacy of my own home then go out an hour later? I mean it does no good and can only do bad.

[RaleighNCDUer]

118. He who would sacrafice essential freedoms for temporary security

deserve neither.

In OUR constitution we have rules against that shit.

And here I've thought of Canada an a rational, enlightend country.

[alarimer]

90. As a Canadian you do not have anything to worry about

There do not appear to be a lot of fascists in Canada, so I guess it's easy to be complacent.

[applegrove]

135. Perhaps so. Though we do have neocons in power who are showing themselves

to like orwellian language and tricks. That isn't fun.

[Bluenorthwest]

110. Love Canada

But that sure explains why you do not understand this issue at all, especially the comments above about marijuana.

[reggie the dog]

174. I disagree

why should the fact that I send emails from France to the USA allow the government to read them without a warrant?

[NoSheep]

192. You are the second Canadian I have encountered on this board

who seems to have a very Neo-Con position on the power of the state over "free" people. Perhaps your experiences in Canada are a bit different from ours here (especially in the past 8 years.) We have seen our constitutional rights shredded to bits. I'm not picking on you or Canadians...I just think it is interesting that you don't live in this country yet you are discussing, in a very unpopular way, the manner in which my and other's tax dollars should be spent and the way our FBI, and other "law and order" agencies conduct business with us. I am beginning to wonder about the vast differences that appear to exist between our countries.

I'd be willing to bet you have access to the kind of capital it takes to buy your way out of a wrongful arrest.

[applegrove]

199. No i don't have access to capital. I'm not worried about a wrongful

arrest. You are right that as a Canadian I perhaps take the attack on your constitution a little less to the heart. You have a good point there.

One difference between the USA and Canada is that the civil liberties association is much less well known in Canada. We don't use the term "freedom" every day. Probably because we didn't have to fight our way to independance like you did or something. Perhaps we never had to fight the cold war while it was going on. We just sent a few soldiers to germany and that was it. No duck & cover for us.

You are right our fears may be different than yours. You are correct Sir! Why we differ. An interesting question.

And I am far from a neocon. I was one of the first people on this site to call their actions in the US psychopathic. I think there is that civil libertarian strain in the USA. And it makes you suspicious of all government regulation or oversight. Except when it comes to something like health care which we all agree you need badly. We in Canada have good health care so I guess we are more used to the nanny state and trust it more than you do. That being said - there are neocons in our Parliament this day. They have a minority government and I cannot wait for them to be gone. I'm tired of their orwellianess though they have been governing like they are benign until they get that majority they want so much.

You are right there are differences between us. I sometimes do get into trouble and realize how close all this *White House horror is to your hearts....not nearly so close for me. I just have different fears than you do.

[NoSheep]

201. I appreciate your response.

[superconnected]

169. That person didn't say leave the country, they suggested you'd be

happier in a police state. You appear to like that sort of thing.

[treestar]

181. Are you kidding?

Can't we tell someone to leave the country when they WANT a POLICE STATE?

Hello???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

There are many police states in the world - I would rather these people went to live in those than that they turned our country into one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You've got to be kidding!

You have no fear of this kind of thinking contaminating our FREE country?

When those who want to live in a police state can easily go elsewhere. You'd rather they stay here and try to turn our country into one?

You must be one of them.

[alarimer]

89. With that kind of "freedom" I'd rather be dead n/t

[NOLALady]

56. Right.

That would work, if we could trust police and law enforcement.

Hell, we can't even trust the politicians who run this country.

[applegrove]

70. There are only about 17 bad apples at the top of the Bush Admin. They recycle

themselves. I wouldn't worry about the head of the FBI or the average law enforcement officer. I think they are all pretty straight.

[Solon]

179. LOL, your naiveté would be amusing if it weren't so dangerous...

Anyone who doesn't worry about those who have legal power over our citizenry is crazy, to not put too fine a point on it.

[Irreverend IX]

120. Translation:

"I'm a pitiful, mewling coward who would rather be safe than free."

In the 20th century, 262 million people were killed by their own governments:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

And yet you want to give cops and spooks and federal thugs unlimited power because you can't stop pissing yourself over the spectral threat of criminals and terrorists, who could never in a million years cause the death and misery that a power-mad government can.

[applegrove]

134. I just want law enforcement to have some tools. I agree more death

is caused by totalitarian government than anyone else. (Bush tried the cult of personality but failed). But we don't face totalitarian governments..we only face criminals in our daily lives. And the odd terrorist.

[jaybeat]

148. "But we don't face totalitarian governments..." YET! (nt)

[NoSheep]

166. Law and order like apartheid? Like Jim Crow? Like Nazi Germany?

Like segregation in a Woolworth's? On a bus? In a school or sports club?

Like tasing people who haven't shown up for a traffic ticket?
Like arresting my boyfriend for asking what his rights were and ruining our vacation because our quiet campsite was invaded by a cop on steroids coming on shift at mid-night looking for a little action?

You have either lived under a rock...are a spoiled succubus in fairy land, or you are VERY, VERY young. I hope you do not see what some of us have seen that is called "Law and Order". Whose laws? Whose idea of order?
Your comment is indicative of someone who is either playing a prank or is hopelessly brainwashed.

[applegrove]

170. I consider all those things you mentioned horrendous. I just think the

science of law & order should be allowed to progress.

[NoSheep]

187. Law and order a science? I think it's more like a psychoactive substance found in nature

with the potential to be abused. We must be very wary of these attempts by the state, high on power, to monitor our every move.

[applegrove]

188. Well we don't agree on how invasive that will be. That's fine. We will just

have to agree to disagree.

[NoSheep]

191. Well put. For a fascist.

edited due to the fact I just learned you don't have a clue about what we are talking about.

[applegrove]

195. I simply feel that with the next President your country will be back on

track and you will be able to trust government again.

[derby378]

14. Ben Franklin is raising a tankard of beer in your honor...

:hi:

[kestrel91316]

21. Ben was one very cool old dude.

[fascisthunter]

17. Thank You... (nt)

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. That presupposes that criminals 'think'.

At my socio-economic rung on the ladder I've known plenty of criminals, mostly amateurs and a couple professionals, and NONE have ever indicated that they were disuaded from their actions by a fear of being caught. There's a narcissistic aspect to the criminal character that prevents any such thinking. They either 'know' they won't get caught, or they simply accept getting caught as part of the game.

Accept that premise and it is obvious that TIA will not 'help' victims avoid crime, and think of the potentials. You touch a can at the supermarket, leave a nice clear print. The person who buys that can is subsequently murdered, and lo! There's a good, clear print on the can, in a stranger's house with no explanation of how it got there.

You're fucked.

The REAL purpose of this is to instill fear in ordinary citizens, to make us docile and compliant with the authorities.

Your papers, please!

[treestar]

49. Exactly! My god, to fall for that argument one has to be very

naive! If that were so, all criminals would quit, knowning DNA or other forensic evidence could eventually nail them!

Or they know to cover their tracks regarding that!

[Occulus]

35. .

:rofl:

Oh, wait, you actually seem serious.

:scared:

[Diclotican]

37. applegrove

applegrove

Rembember one thing. Many pepole who was draged to prison in USSR, was in many cases pepole who say excactly the same thing. If I have noting to worry about, the government can do better with more information about me.. And then they was arrested, and in extremely many cases sendt to Sibira for "crimes against the state":. A bad joke, against one of the leaders of the Party. A joke against Josef Stalin, or something he had sad or something like that.. If you was unluky.. Out for a loooooong "hollyday" in the care of the soviet prison system...

And you really belive that USA would not let it happend, if and when this are coming to sytem?.. Belive me, no system are foolprofe, and if you want a system where fingerprint, bilogical data and other sensitive information about yourself should be keept on a Datafile, then you should be dam sure they are stored safe.. And if anything goes aroud, goverment files are never stored THAT safe, that it canot be tempered with, and that wrong information are not coming into the system..

And, if someone want to get personal information about me, ask me, and have a good case for it. Then I wil say what I have eat today, and even what my "poo" was when I was at the WC.. BUT TO SPY ON ME, thank you, not!:

[applegrove]

71. I don't think that a record of an iris scan or a palm print is spying on you.

I don't think that information on you gets flagged unless a crime occurs.

[jayfish]

96. Yep, You're Probably Right, But...

here's the problem; this country is on a mad dash to criminalize everything. Changing C.I.s to a misdemeanors. Changing ,misdemeanors to felony's. Longer jail terms. Mandatory sentencing. It won't take long before running a stop-sign will unleash the biometric dogs of war. They will target you with the full force of the federal government and you will not be able to hide.

Jay

[Diclotican]

100. applegrove

applegrove

Madam

If the police want my fingerprint, or have my a iris scan they rather have a good ground to do it.. Not just say, "to be on the secure side, we have to get your blood, your iris scan, and your fingerprint": This is the first way to get control over me, and over you where you go, where you are and why you are doing it...If they have proper cause. And ASK POLITELY then they may get what they want.. If not I would fight it nail and toe to the highest court in our country!

Today we are pretty free to go where we want to go. If this system is to mature, and going into a more private league both you and I can discover one day, that the police want to ask you WHY you was in that bookstore, or why you was in THAT food store.. And you can also experience that one day, you are denied access to places, like public bath, public areas, because your Fingerprint, Iris scan or your blood are on a "list":.

What happened to many of the "no-fly list" passenger in this country of your?.. How many thousands have not fight ed hard against the government, not because they have been doing something wrong, but because the government have been doing something wrong, or you have a first name or a surname that is in some "file"... It have happend... Even children have been taken into "custody" because their surname have been on some nasty "List" over bad pepole... For a year ago a british couple and their children was arrested in New York, and deported back to the UK..Why, because one of the children was on a no-fly list and considered a risk for the United States of America... The children in this case was not exactly in the age who their rebel against the entailment, the boy was 10 years old, and was happy because the family was to travel to Disney World in Florida...:mad: Guess he never made it to Florida because of a Fuck up by the TSA and the FBI.. And this is just ONE of the cases who are been known to the public.. How many more are there, who are _not_ Known by the public..

Sorry, I don't trust your, or my own government enough, to trust that my blood, my fingerprint, my DNA or other of my bode ly parts should have something in a government computer database.. Not as THIS level. It is enough what the government already know about how I "tick" If they want, they can pretty well get exactly what they want, even my type of Blood if they ask the proper channel.. I believe it to be B- something...

This is just the beginning of a police state if you let it go like this.. What have it come to, in the US when you let the police take all the freedom and the right you once was so famous for and let you believe you are still free??. It is similar in some prospect to what many experienced in the East European states under the cold war. They to believed they was free, and that the police and other government agency es just was taking "the bad people" to prison where they was to be rehabilitated, so they can be "good citizen" again when theyr crime was punished.. Good grief, ten of thousands of east european people was willing to risk everything for what US now are casting to the scrap yard, in the name of "fighting enemies home and abroad": Even the rhetoric is the same as the dictatorship of Josef Stalin was using against anyone who wanted another country.. It is just to read some history books about the time I am talking about, and you are sitting with a airy deva joy, and you are looking down a abyss very few have coming home to tell about...

The way to dictatorship and concentration camps are not long.. The way from Dictatorship, and concentration camps are a long, painfully, often horrible and destructive way.. I for one pray every day that United States of America don't need to go down that road, to learn the hard way what freedom and liberty REALLY means.. And I hope and pray that US don't need to learn what Europe learned the hard way, in many wars, most notably WW1 and WW2.. Specially WW2 where for the most part the whole continent was ruined and it took more than 50 year to get europe to stand up on two feet again.. And a 40 year divide in the Continent itself between East and Vest...

But if you don't want to learn by others, you may have to learn by experience..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English,not my native language

[applegrove]

133. Your english is very good. I understood perfectly what you were saying.

I agree we don't want to see a totalitarian world or country. I just don't think that virus scans at airports or palm prints on a database somewhere are the path to such horrors. I think they just give the police more tools they can use to catch the bad guys.

[reggie the dog]

175. what virus

are you looking for???

[RaleighNCDUer]

141. And of course, prosecutors NEVER lie to get the person they want. nt

[treestar]

46. That has never worked

People who commit crimes do not think beforehand. Or, if they do, then they plan a way around it.

You've got to be pretty young.

[applegrove]

72. Unfortunately I'm not young or naive when it comes to criminals. At least

not as naive as I'd like to be. I trade my two cats to go back to a state of average human innoncence. Really I would. It is possible to know too much. I can still be naive at times. But not on this issues. Why I'm a law & order babe. Give the police all sorts of tools. Tazers? turn those suckers down and only use them in situation where you would have to pull your guns instead.

[ooglymoogly]

76. The mere fact that you would trade your two pets for anything

gives us a clue as to who you are....but one thing is clear, you ARE a good churman.

[applegrove]

80. What is a churman! And obviously trading my two cats was just an expression.

But please..what is a churman?

[ooglymoogly]

95. Try saying german with a german accent.

[treestar]

182. You've fallen for the fear meme

May as well be a republican.

Are you kidding? It is naive to think that the police having all those "tools" they need would lead to anything other than a police state.

Take your chances of becoming a victim of crime, prepare to defend yourself, but the police having those powers would lead to a police state, which is far more dangerous. It is naive to think that an executive branch with absolute power will not abuse it.

The Founding Fathers knew this.

[ooglymoogly]

65. God you are thick applegrove

Think of authoritarian governments and police forces gone wild destroying all protections for the individual. Think of a government arresting people for peacefully gathering to protest illegal government actions or illegal wars. Think of the Nazi concentration camps, their gas chambers and ovens. Think of being arrested for saying you hate the president. It is called a slippery slope and we are well on our way down that slope and this is just another giant leap.

[applegrove]

75. You are aware they were talking only about iris scans and palm prints.

Not totalitarianism.

[ooglymoogly]

83. Just trust us. We will only use it for good....not to round up all the "undesirables"

who are weeping for their tired ol' constitution and causing us pugs soooo much trouble. Sound familiar..."we are just spying on the terrorists not you.... but no, you can't see exactly who we are spying on nor can any democrat see who we are spying on. Its all for your own good...now shut up and drink the kool-aid.

[applegrove]

86. I think there was a culture of personality around the WH in the first

few years of the administration. But the public busted through that culture around the time of the Katrina cruelty/fiasco. People were never rounded up though they were silenced for a time and examples were made of people who spoke out.

I just don't believe you can have a safe society without some tools for the police which are very advanced.

[ooglymoogly]

93. Yes you are right. We need to keep a close watch on all those

dope smokers causing such havoc to our drug, tobacco and alcohol corporations. They (the corporations) after all wrote the laws that have put the biggest prison population on earth by magnitudes on the US map....and think of all the war protesters we can keep a close watch on and thus eliminating them.

[applegrove]

132. I still don't get how an iris scan and palm print will mean people will

be watched at demonstrations. I've been do demonstration and given the finger to police filming the event. I hate that. But what do iris scans and palm prints have to do with that?

[ooglymoogly]

151. Think cameras all over the place as is happening in England.

Think about cameras with the ability to perform eye scans. Think of governments misusing that power to eliminate its enemies as in the illegal eavesdropping where their perceived enemies are easy targets. Think of Nixon using his powers to destroy democrats. Unchallenged and unchecked governments always try to expand their power and the longer that government goes unchecked the more ruthless and brutal it becomes as in Nazi Germany. Try extrapolating using the expansive history that is in easy reach.

[tuckessee]

114. How about human scents?

So dogs can track "criminals"?

The Stasi had a scent database of tens of thousands of citizens.

[RaleighNCDUer]

139. You are aware that totalitarianism doesn't start with death camps,

it ENDS with death camps.

Nobody could object to having a national ID card for photo identification.
Nobody could object to having an innocuous identifier on their national ID, such as a yellow star.

Totalitarianism is always incremental.

[applegrove]

142. So the police have to stop right now ...with the present technology...forever?

They don't get to develop more tools?

[ooglymoogly]

153. Not if they ever expect to achieve their life long wet dream of a

police state....acknowledging that there are many valiant policemen who are here to protect us. one only need watch the news and comb the internet for the horror stories to find there are more that long for total power. By protecting corporations instead of the people they are sworn to protect they form an unholy alliance. Goering understood this quite well.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. Think of the precedent

They're seeking to collect evidence against people who have not yet committed any crime - just in case.

[madfloridian]

102. I hate to hear you say that.

I would not have expected that of you. :shrug:

[applegrove]

143. I'm not talking about totalitarianism. I'm talking about a iris scan for

people who travel and a record of a palm print in some database. Not hugely different from what we have now. Except everyone will be included. Wouldn't you like to go to the airport and know that you will not be confused with someone on a no fly list because your iris scan says you are you?

[jaybeat]

149. You ARE talking about a great way to get there.

"Wouldn't you like to go to the airport and know that you will not be confused with someone on a no fly list because your iris scan says you are you?"

I wouldn't.

When the iris scan says you are not "you," but a wanted "criminal," that will, of course, PROVE that you ARE that criminal, and no one will believe you if you say you're not, because the authorities, the scanners, the FBI, the ONES WHO'S JOB IT IS TO KEEP US SAFE would never abuse that power or make a mistake.

Remember Nixon? Dirty tricks? J. Edgar Hoover? MLK a "subversive"? The "informants" who whipped up terrorist wannabees into a frenzy so they could arrest them?

Didn't think so.

After all, anyone who doesn't like this, must have something to hide.

Kafka, anyone?

[Barrymores Ghost]

121. Holy Christ on a kebab with tzatziki sauce...

...please tell me you're being sardonic. I can't believe that a fully-functional American citizen with a pulse, the ability to fog a mirror and the wherewithal to recognize a violation of the right to privacy would say something this wholly vapid while keeping a straight face.

[applegrove]

144. I'm not an american citizen. I was a victim of a crime though. Makes me

into a law & order type.

Do you really think that the science of policing should stop right here and never expand its technology? What is it about today's tools that make them smart way into the future. A future where terrorism will be increasing. Do you really feel secure knowing that "no fly" lists consist of nothing but names? Names that where one person can be mistaken for another because they happen to have the same name. Should there not be more data than that? I think so.

[Barrymores Ghost]

150. Being a victim of crime doesn't somehow grant you membership into an elite club...

...of citizens who wield more credibility in the discussion of what constitutes un-Constitutional invasion of privacy. Here are a few things for you to ponder while you are blithely marching to your local police precinct to volunteer for absorption into the National Biometrics Citizen Database.

When foreigners from oil-rich countries have more civil rights in your country and ordinary citizens such as yourself are being "scanned" and, therefore, uniformly treated as potential criminals, then you are living in a police state. Here's the rub: there is absolutely no limit to the applications and implications of this technology, and how it will be used to track your words, actions and your movement. Do you really WANT your elected government -- those who are supposed to work FOR YOU -- to have instantaneous access to this information? How do you define "personal privacy?" Well, champ, you'd better rethink that definition.

CIA spy chief Mike McConnell now wants to implement a plan that allows the U.S. Government to monitor all Internet and telecom communications at all times, without restriction... That means yours. Not breaking the law? That's fine. They'll be hearing you bitch about your boss, your ex and your politicians, too. And you can trust that they'll make note of anything you say or write that sounds remotely interesting or troublesome to them...to include anything that sounds like resistance to their ideas on or definition of national order.

Reports are coming out that uniformed troops overseas are now being quizzed as to whether they would be prepared to round up weapons belonging to law abiding citizens, or if they would be willing to shoot friends or family members in the event of a national state of emergency within our borders. In other words, friend, our military is already in the preliminary stages of preparation for martial law, should the current or next chief executive decide to impose it.

Maybe you should try reading the Bill of Rights again -- or if you never have, perhaps familiarize yourself with it. Or, you can simply keep accepting everything your government decides to impose upon you in the name of "your protection," until you are unable to walk out the door of your own home without someone 3,000 miles away knowing about it.

* * *

James Madison: "IF TYRANNY AND OPPRESSION COME TO THIS LAND, IT WILL BE IN THE GUISE OF FIGHTING A FOREIGN ENEMY."

Benjamin Franklin: "THEY THAT CAN GIVE UP ESSENTIAL LIBERTY TO OBTAIN A LITTLE TEMPORARY SAFETY, DESERVE NEITHER LIBERTY NOR SAFETY."

I've been a victim of crime...on more than a handful of occasions. Once, of violent crime. But I don't use this as an excuse to surrender my right to privacy. This initiative isn't about safety, it's ultimately about control, and controlling rival clans. Your experience hasn't made you into a "law-and-order type." It's made you submissive. It's made you a sheep.

[applegrove]

152. Harsh words. But you have a right to your opinion. As do I. I never said

it made me into some sort of elite. Just telling you where my thinking comes from. The old adage that nobody likes the police until they are a victim of a crime and then they want the police to be their daddy. There is truth in that adage. I don't think it makes me into a sheep. I just appreciate my sense of security. I have a right, as anyone does, to go through something and then change my views. Then I have a right to my views. Without being called names because I have them and they differ from your take on civil order. You have fears too. I back up your right to express those fears when a topic comes along that peaks those fears. I don't have to agree with you but I'll back up your right to take a stand.

[Barrymores Ghost]

157. I will only suggest one thing, then I'll leave you in peace....

...and that is to take a really hard look at the methodology that is being employed, and by whom, and then ask yourself and others if you truly believe that your safety and security is what this is really all about -- and whether it will even work, assuming that it's implemented with the best of intentions.

You have a long history here and I am, while a long-time reader, not an avid poster. I don't mean to impugn your intelligence or question your intent. I mean no disrespect to you as an individual, not would I presume to deny you the right to harbor whatever concerns you feel are apropos to your life experience and your personal needs. But as a citizen myself (a responsibility which I take very seriously), I implore you to question the intent of government organizations working under the present Administration and the leeway you would afford them to achieve their goal of a total information network. It's no secret that this is the goal. And it's no secret that they have used lies, the threat of terrorism and the specter of preemptive militarism to bend people's will and fulfill imperialist goals.

What you seem oblivious to (or willing ignorant of) is that, with this crowd, information for the purpose of domestic security never has been and never will be the end game.

<edited for spelling>

[applegrove]

163. I don't trust the neocons either. But I don't think that modernizing security

is something necessarily nepharious. Surely it happens all of our lives.

Like i said. You and I just have different fears. And we will have to leave it at that.

[Danger Mouse]

123. Bullshit. Many crimes are committed by people who don't give a shit if they get caught...

others are acts of passion, so thus, getting caught is not a factor.
I guess you don't believe in any sort of privacy.

[Hugabear]

127. I'm glad that you approve of the fascist police state

If you honestly think this will deter people from committing crimes, then you're a fucking idiot.

[applegrove]

145. An iris scan may keep some terrorists from travelling. Knowing your

palm print is in a database may keep someone from a myriad of crimes. Not all criminals are obtuse. The worst ones plan ahead.

[NoSheep]

193. You just answered your own argument. "The worst ones plan ahead".

That's what our government has been doing for some time. We see this as another part of their plan.

[applegrove]

200. I'm so sorry your present President has scared you so much. I agree

that as a Canadian I am further away from all the damage done to your great country by him and his cronies. Obviously why we have different fears, different views and end up in a discussion today, yesterday and the day before over a "hot" topic.

[NoSheep]

204. Would it be presumptuous of me to ask if you have ever seen this?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples...

If you hang out around here I would assume you know about it. But then again, I didn't know about it until about 4 years ago...That this site remains available on the web is just amazing to me. If you have never seen it...note the date and the signatory.

I have learned that the language in these declarations is highly euphemistic. It outlines a strategy toward government control over the coffers of our treasury for an elite few and their selfish interests; foreign and domestic policy that jibes nicely with their portfolios. We have seen these concepts come to fruition by the stacking of the judicial branch with like minded operatives, leading to a concentration of power in the executive branch which is intimately sympathetic to the cause of these neo-cons.

Having a constitution such as ours, it is only with a corrupt justice department and a complicit media that these people could accomplish what they have. And we have proven they are corrupt. Personally, I believe they deliberately created and continue to present the public with a situation that allows them to hide their crimes in the black box of "national security interests".

Any chip they can make in our civil liberties...any opportunity they have to "control us", will insure our continued compliance with their plans. These "plans" are not in the best interest of the majority of people in our country.

Our party is making some gains...it is hard when the media is owned by those entities who seek to cover their tracks and continue the pillaging and murder. Money is buying freedom in our country. This is unacceptable.

Power is contagious and many people aren't too bright. Most are not well informed. A grunt will come to the defense of these giants because he wants a piece of it...ignorant to the fact that he is merely a pawn in their game. Officer Nobody. Agent Gimmesome. Private First Class Expendable.

No matter, he will mimic their modes...while the duped get used to less and less freedom to share their ideas, inform their fellows and move about at will. He will be their cop, their agent, their mouthpiece and their informant. What was once normal will become unacceptable. It is happening here. And I know if the little piggies are grooving on it, the big ones must be having the time of their lives!

You mentioned having been to a demonstration where the cops were filming. I have a photo of someone who is NOT a uniformed cop but clearly a player in their game. He was taking pictures of peaceful demonstrators in DC at the head of their groups. Trying to identify the "leaders".
<a href="" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

This is scary to me. At what point will they use my palm or retina scan to identify me, arrest me and label me an enemy combatant? Or track me by my cell phone, which is already equipped with gps capability, thanks to some ignorant or not so ignorant fucks in the cell phone industry trying to deliver what the customer asked for. I am clearly their enemy, wouldn't you say? No one will be able to help me because my records won't be available for reasons of "national security".

This, NOT because I have committed a crime (although a corrupt justice system may disagree) but because I'm keeping up. I'm sharing what I know. The more we network, the more people there are that become their enemies, the tighter their control will need to be. It's happening.

I'm glad you didn't flip out about my tone. You need to know this so you can help us by being of the mind and opinion that these high-tech controls have become necessary due to the number of people in this country who have figured out what's going on. Our votes at the polls show it. What they read us write and share on the internet shows it...and had you called me an asshole, I wouldn't have shared it.

They have stolen 2 elections. They have done far worse and for offering those details you would probably label me a conspiracy theorist. But think on this: If this website that I have linked to here is not evidence of a conspiracy among the few and the powerful with the means to buy anything and everyone they need to continue their efforts, how then do you define conspiracy?

I would appreciate anything you can do to help us get our country back.

[applegrove]

205. Project for a New American Century isn't a conspiracy cause they

lay it all out there in their documents. And they aren't hiding that they work together. I'll give you that they said in the mid 1960s that they said they needed a Repressed Patrician Protestant to be their patsy and found it in George W. Bush in 2000. I wouldn't trust a neocon as far as I could throw them. They have a distopian view of the world so - if left to their own devices would leave a distopian world behind them if they had unlimited power over a long time.

But they don't. They lost. They got busted. All 17 of them. So it is over. They took down the website. And you will soon have a new President, a Democrat, who you can trust again. And you'll learn to trust again. And then maybe you'll see that perhaps the police need to be up to date with technology in order to maintain peace. Perhaps you'll still be against any invasion of privacy. But i think you'll feel much more hopefull about the world and your country in particular after the neocons are gone. Give it time.

I'm from Canada. We have neocons in minority power and I have no doubt if they got a majority it would be orwellian times for us. I think they'll loose the next election cause they are just to weird. The cat is out of the bag. Their party is over for neocons..all over the world.

So I don't have the fears you have. I have fears of my own that differ. Based on past experience. And I prefer to live in a country that has smart tools for the police to use. That is what makes me feel safe. So even though I understand your fears..I don't share them and have to say that the FBI needs a few more tools. They always do need newer tools. Policing is a science afterall. But that is my opinion as a Canadian you has not had to take the assault on the Constitution to heart as much as you.

Peace to you. We disagree. I'm glad we can do it in an extended discussion. I learned a think or two.

[The Stranger]

138. Then you can go do it, but leave the rest of us out of this.

Thanks very much.

[applegrove]

146. I'm already on file because my parent's house was robbed as a teen

and they needed to compare my fingerprints with those they found on a glass jar that had coin in it till it was robbed. I worked at the airport for a bit - in order to pass the security check I had to have an iris scan. No big deal either way.

[tridim]

6. You'll get nothing from me Big Brother.

I'd rather die than give my last ounce of Liberty to these assholes.

[dbt]

7. How much of this eavesdropping/database/SPYING shit

are the Corporations that own the United States Government behind?

:freak:

[Hestia]

94. All of them - this is from The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein

it may run over the 4 paragraph limit, but it is important:

pages 300-301 "A Corporate New Deal"

Every aspect of the way the Bush administration has defined the parameters on the War on Terror has served to maximize its profitability and sustainability as a market -- from the definition of the enemy to the rules of engagement to the ever-expanding scale of the battle. The document that launched the Department of Homeland Security declares, "Today's terrorists can strike at any place, at any time, and with virtually any weapon" -- which conveniently that the security services required must protect against every imaginable risk in every conceivable place t every possible time. And it's not necessary to prove that a threat is real for it to merit a full-scale response -- not with Cheney's famous "1 percent doctrine," which justifies the invasion of Iraq on the grounds that if there is a 1 percent chance that something is a threat, it requires that the U.S. respond as if the threat is a 100 percent certainty. This logic has been a particular boon for the makers of various high-tech detection devices: for instance, because we can conceive of a smallpox attack, the Department of Homeland Security has handed out half a billion dollars to private companies to develop and install detection equipment to guard against this unproven threat.46

...

That was the business prospectus that the Bush administration put before corporate America after September 11. The revenue stream was a seemingly bottomless supply of tax dollars to be funneled through the Pentagon ($270 billion a year to private contractors, a $137 billion increase since Bush took office); U.S. intelligence agencies ($42 billion a year to the contractors for out-sourced intelligence, more than double the 1995 levels); and the newest arrival, the Department of Homeland Security. Between September 11, 2001 and 2006, the Department of Homeland Security handed out $130 billion to private contractors -- money that was not in the economy before and that is more than the GDP of Chile or the Czech Republic. In 2003, the Bush administration spent $327 billion on contracts to private companies -- nearly 40 cents of every discretionary dollar.

...

page 303 "The Market for Terrorism"

As high-tech firms have jumped from one bubble to another, the result has been a bizarre merger of security and shopping cultures. Many technologies in use today as art of the War on Terror -- biometric identification, video surveillance, Web tracking, data mining, sold by companies lie Verint Systems and Seisint, Accenture and ChoicePoint -- had been developed by the private sector before September 11 as a way to build detailed customer profiles, opening up new vistas for micromarketing. They also promise to reduce the number of retail workers at supermarkets and shopping malls, because biometric IDs, combined with cash cards, would eliminate the need for tellers. When widespread discomfort about big-brother technologies stalled many of these initiatives, it caused dismay to both marketers and retailers. September 11 loosened this logjam in the market: suddenly the fear of terror was greater than the fear of living in a surveillance society. So now, the same information collected from cash cards or "loyalty" cards can sold not only to a travel agency or the Gap as marketing data but also to the FBI as security data, flagging a "suspicious" interest in pay-as-you-go cell phones and Middle Eastern travel.

...
page 306

In just a few years,the homeland security industry, which barely existed before 9/11, has exploded to a size that is now significantly larger than either Hollywood or the music business. Yet what is most striking is how little the security boom is analyzed and discussed as an economy, as an unprecedented convergence of unchecked police powers and unchecked capitalism, a merger of the shopping mall and the secret prison. When information about who is or is not a security threat is a product to be sold as readily as information about who buys Harry Potter books on Amazon or who has taken a Caribbean cruise and might enjoy one in Alaska, it changes the values of a culture. Not only does it create an incentive to spy, torture and generate false information but it creates a powerful impetus to perpetuate the fear and sense of peril that created the industry in the first place.
...

[Fridays Child]

8. Time to invest in that short pulse laser that removes tatoos. eom

edited to add...

http://www.raydiance-inc.com/index.htm

[fascisthunter]

15. BREAKING: FBI Want us all to Wear Dress Code

fill in the blank

[TomInTib]

19. I was at O'Hare last year when a woman walked up in a red fishnet leotard.

I think they ended up arresting her.

She was raising nine kinds of hell, saying that we might as well be flying naked.

Must of weighed 350 pounds.

Quite a sight.

[fascisthunter]

34. oy.... Was it Because of What She was Wearing?

Were worried she would hide something like a weapon in her outfit? Or are they just literal fashion police?

[TomInTib]

125. She was totally naked beneath it.

All of the wine in the world will never erase that mental image.

[fascisthunter]

136. Jayzus...lol

there goes my coffee... good morning, BTW.

[TomInTib]

16. "People who don't think mistakes are going to be made I don't think fly enough,"

No kidding.

My girlfriend and I recently went completely through Security at LaGuardia with one another's Boarding Passes.

Then we swapped IDs while going through DFW. She's Norwegian and I have a beard, for Dog's sake.

The TSA people are idiots.

[elocs]

23. Man, I'd be dead meat.

I have a large tattoo on my upper right arm--the red V logo from V for Vendetta with the word "FREEDOM" above it and "FOREVER" below it.

[liberal N proud]

24. Didn't the Nazi's tattoo Jews?

It just gets scarier and scarier

[Orsino]

25. The incompetent always want more power to cover their incompetence.

The FBI's track record is not one to inspire that much trust.

[kimmylavin]

26. Pardon my language, but...

Bull-Fucking-Shit

"all part of an effort the bureau says to better identify criminals and terrorists."

IT IS NOT.
It is an effort to keep us scared, an effort to keep us from sticking up for our rights, and an effort to make some very well-connected people a lot of money. How much do you want to bet those database contracts get outsourced to some heavy hitting donors?

[nickyt]

27. Just visited freeperville to check reaction, nothing posted yet, but some rapture fans said:

"I just read that..... All I can say is Come QUICKLY LORD JESUS. COME Quickly! The Sprit and the Bride say COME!"

"Yes, because I'm sure we will soon be the criminal"

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=33739

Sorry, not sure what a "Sprit" is, not up on my Bibical references -

[vanboggie]

54. I think a "sprit" must be a dead Moran

:evilgrin:

[Blue_Tires]

156. who is the bride??

[1monster]

28. I honestly didn't realize that the criminal and terror problem was so pervasive in this country.

I mean, I must be incredibly lucky. The only time I've been victimized by NON CORPORATE criminals was thrity some odd years ago when I was walking down a mostly deserted street at dusk with my shoulder bag strap looped around my thumb and wrist and a (insert your favorite expletives here) came wizzing up behind me on a bicycle and grabbed the strap of my bag while peddling as fast as he could. He nearly broke my thumb.....I had to let go. But if my reactions had been a little faster, I would have grabbed his rear tire and sent him FLYING.

For his pains, all he got was something around six dollars counting the change, my unsuable college dining room meal ticket and my library card.

For my pains, I was somewhat inconvenienced but wiser.

If we are going to talk corporate criminality (they are never called to account, though, and if are, can somehow make what they did legal), the yes, go for it. They and the ones who commit violent crimes are the real threat to our safty, society, and country.

[Initech]

104. All while the real criminals in this country sit comfortably in the White House...

the Senate, Congress, and upper management.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

32. That was one scary read.

From the article:

You don't have to be a criminal or a terrorist to be checked against the database. More than 55 percent of the checks the FBI runs involve criminal background checks for people applying for sensitive jobs in government or jobs working with vulnerable people such as children and the elderly, according to the FBI.

The FBI says it hasn't been saving the fingerprints for those checks, but that may change. The FBI plans a so-called "rap-back" service in which an employer could ask the FBI to keep the prints for an employee on file and let the employer know if the person ever has a brush with the law. The FBI says it will first have to clear hurdles with state privacy laws, and people would have to sign waivers allowing their information to be kept.

So once they get this implemented let's say you're doing your job just fine, good reviews and no performance issues. But due to some legal snafu you happened to have in your life you could be fired?

Amazing.

[Earth_First]

33. Map this:

[L0oniX]

36. I am not afraid of terrorists. Im afraid of cops and the other drivers on the road next to me.

Over 45,000 people die every year in traffic accidents.

[alarimer]

40. Over my dead bodfy, you fascists.

Fuck you, agent Mike. Just fuck you and your fascist friends.

[The Blue Flower]

42. We'll get you yet, Emmanuel Goldstein!!!

Just you wait, you with your terrorist irises!

[vanboggie]

44. And the contract will be awarded to ...

Blackwater? They can go to hell.

Halliburton/subsidiary

Carlyle Group/subsidiary

Bastards. I think I'll get one of tatoos, too.

[treestar]

45. So it does nothing about native born terrorists

OBL has never been to the U.S. Taking this information on everyone in the US does NOTHING. They can't take it on everyone in Afghanistan and Western Pakistan, where it might be useful!

Dumb bastards. And the US public seems to fall for it, or fails to question it.

If they want to find terrorist they have to step up intelligence abroad, not have endless wars abroad and not worry about who is in the US or not. If they are really this ineffective and stupid, we could be in danger. If they were going to prevent another 911, it would not have been because they they data on everyone in the US.

They have so much gall, they continue to insult our intelligence with this crap!

[NOLALady]

47. They'll get my fingerprints

from my cold dead hands.

[Twist_U_Up]

53. The only terrorist most Americans will ever encounter is a policeman

with a badge, nightstick, mace and a taser

[Redstone]

58. Hey, if you don't like the idea, it must mean you're a TURRAIST! Or one a them dirty libburels, that

wants us to be havin them RIGHTS and all.

Redstone

[NoSheep]

194. Freedom aint free and dont choo ferget it. Terrrst.

x(

[whatdoyouthink]

59. How Much

Do you want to bet - it will cost 10 Billion and not get finished in time.

And there will be huge mistakes - (wrong person or how many people have hearts on there right or left arm....and can cover a tattoo / etc) in this program

Another Billion Plus cost - down the tubes - if you ask me

Big Brother has nothing on these guys?

[high density]

60. Doesn't IBM have a system from the 1930s that's all ready to go for this sort of thing?

Just dust it off and put in some new vacuum tubes. Fascism is on the march!

[Sam Ervin jret]

61. They can WANT to do anything! They can want to tattoo my big white ass, but if they think they're

gonna, then their INTEL is as BAD as they complain it is.

[jaybeat]

62. If you oppose this, you are a terrorist

Kimberly Del Greco, the FBI's Biometric Services section chief, said adding to the database is "important to protect the borders to keep the terrorists out, protect our citizens, our neighbors, our children so they can have good jobs, and have a safe country to live in."

Absolutely.

Good, loyal Citizens can feel safer, knowing that criminals, subversives, traitors and undesirables of all kinds can be more effectively identified. True Patriots with nothing to hide will welcome these capabilities--after all, anyone who doesn't must surely wish to do harm to the Homeland, and to our Citizens, neighbors and children and their good jobs.

Don't YOU want a safe country to live in?



The Reich will never be destroyed if you are united and loyal. (1933)

[AzDar]

63. Not just NO..... HELL NO.

Let me guess... Halliburton just opened a 'Biometric' division?
:puke:

[caseycoon]

64. NO FREAKIN' WAY!

They have got to be insane!
This needs to get stopped NOW!
:mad:

[Dukkha]

66. They can try it and I'll give them a tattoo to scan on them

made with shotgun pellets

[ooglymoogly]

159. The most likely way they will implement this is

when you test for a drivers license or passport

[ooglymoogly]

73. They have this kind of money for this kind of nazi crap and they

have no money for starving families and elderly having to live on the streets, for brain scarred vets returning home to this kind of idiocy? This is a clear indication that this country is in for some very scary times. For many they are already here and we wait sipping kool-aid for our turn and we wait the hope of a fool that when they reach us they will be kind.

[Vattel]

74. the fbi

should spend the money hiring people who are smart enough to worry about saudis learning how to fly but not land planes

[Algorem]

87. so they're not just Female Body Inspectors?

[John Gauger]

91. Well, now I'll never get a tattoo.

Not if the government can use it to identify me.

[FirstLight]

103. I'll shave my fingertips before I let the feds touch me

And with all this talk about identifying terorists...they can;t use the SS# or the Drivers license to find my ex who owes me over $50K in child support...?

and what's scary, is at the bottom of this page there are "ads By Google" for biometrics, to use as your time clock with employees, etc... so how much will big brother pay my company to take this information...?

yikes, glad I live in a rural area, they'll get to my house last! (if I don't take to the forest like robin hood!)

[goforit]

97. Hell!!! Wouldn't it be nice to have Kenneth Lays/Barbara Olsen's palm/eye scan

[Lint Head]

98. This is fascist technocracy at it's worst.. Your children and their

children are going to live in a fascist hell if we do not stop the madness now. :dem:

[Mojambo]

99. Screw Disney Land... America: The world's first and largest authoritarian, fascist fantasy camp.

We can charge foreign tourists a bundle to come here and live in an authentic fascist dictatorship for the weekend!

[MikeNearMcChord]

101. Comrade Citizens, I find your responses most un-American

You must submit your bio-metrics to the Corporate Christian Soviet States Of America. Comrades I must report this Boo-Jois Bonapartist Bushit, to the proper authorities. Comrade Citizens!! Do you not know the sacrifices that Great Comrade Brother Bush and Master Comrade Brother Cheney is doing to protect you from those who would enslave you. Comrades to the Haliburton Happy Camps with you!

[Initech]

105. This makes me want to get a tattoo of a giant middle finger going across my back.

That way whenever the FBI brings up my profile, I will be flipping them off.

[143tbone]

107. Oh for the good old days when I used to think that you had nothing to worry about

if you were doing nothing wrong.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

108. The times they are a-changin

[JDPriestly]

112. I would say we have become a nation of paranoids.

Spending $1 billion on this when schools do not have enough books, children do not have health insurance and there is talk of defunding social programs is insane.

[Wednesdays]

115. "Minority Report" has just become reality.

:scared:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)

[LynnTheDem]

116. Keeping the Good American safe!

Give fascism a try! You'll like it!

Good fucking grief...wake the fuck up, America.

[Oreegone]

124. STRIP SEARCH

In order to "map" all the tattoos, we would be required to strip down and remove body hair just to make sure they don't miss anything. Wonder what those good old boys will think of the government checking their wives boobs and asses?

[BreweryYardRat]

128. Gross violation of the Fourth Amendment. The ACLU should sue.

[OneBlueSky]

129. there will come a time when all Americans will be required to have radio frequency implants . . .

so that we can be tracked no matter where we go or what we do . . . massive personal files on everyone will be the norm -- if they aren't already -- and trumping up charges would be easy based on anything from library book selections to Internet purchases . . . a hi-tech fascist society in the making . . .

[allisonthegreat]

131. Two words--POLICE STATE- n/t

[superconnected]

154. Yep! And it's in the name of "protecting" us from terrorism.

I want to know who's going to "protect" us from our "protectors".

[TXDemGal]

140. So WHO'S gonna get the big contract?

Anyway wanna take a guess?

[mnhtnbb]

155. Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner!

It's all about feeding at the gov't trough--our money, folks--for what? Does anybody really believe
the BS that having all this info will make us safer?

No, of course not. How easy is it to get into the US? Just ask any of the illegal immigrants in the country.

It's all about sucking money from the budget. That's $1 billion not available for schools, highways, bridges. Not for health care. Not for education. Not for fixing levees in New Orleans or rebuilding along the Gulf Coast.

Build war toys. Run the boondoggle TSA. Give contracts for data gathering. Make private companies rich
from raiding the Treasury. That's what this is about.

[raebrek]

147. Time for the fake tats

I guess I could go get some fake temporary tats and then get them photographed for the records. :)

Raebrek!!!

[Quantess]

168. I already have a bunch of real ones.

Too late for me.

[KansDem]

171. F**k 'em! Even with all this "new intelligence..."

The George W Bushes, the Condi Rices, the John Ashcrofts, and the Dick Cheneys of the government will ignore warnings telling of a terrorist attack.

They will be "uninterested" in doing their jobs:
Rice Was ‘Uninterested In Advising The President’ Before 9/11

[OKthatsIT]

184. You mean PRIVATIZED INTEL, don't you?

It's just a phone call away. But remember, once we've sold our 'intellectual property' and its in your hands...the rest is up to you. In other words, it's your ass, not ours.

We would also advise you to not mention where the 'report' came from, but instead, keep our corporate identity in a more...generic form, such as, "intelligence sources". If pressed for 'authorship', simply reply, "That's Classified".

[pleah]

172. And when the government is done cataloging the sheeple, the new

dance craze will be the goosestep!

[katty]

176. So, when do they take our souls?

[ooglymoogly]

178. you need to go to your local church (owned and operated by the GOP)

for that.

[OKthatsIT]

183. FBI has some chutzpah saying they're working for the USA

Border protection...don't make me laugh. The FBI is turning out to be just like the rest of em...gangsters.

[sakabatou]

185. Next: Keeping People in Man-Sized Safes.

[Blue_Tires]

189. ttt

[benEzra]

208. "Criminal" is the new "terrah," it seems...

Sweeping new and unconstitutional powers were justified via fearmongering about nuclear explosions in our cities, and then once those powers are in place, the target shifts from nuclear-weapon-wielding terrorists to anyone who *might* run afoul of any arcane laws.

BTW, prior to 9/11, "drug dealers" were the favorite justification of Surveillance Nation policies by their proponents. Looks like they've gotten all the mileage they can out of "terrah" and are reverting to type.

The Fourth Amendment is there for a reason, and Roe v. Wade explicitly stated that the 4thA protects a general right to privacy in addition to the specific protections listed against warrantless search and seizure.

[sattahipdeep]

212. Looney Tunes world Elmer Fudd....

Rockefeller Lets Slip the Spying Truth

In short, the changes legalize Room 641A the secret spying room
inside AT&T's San Francisco internet switching center that was outed by former AT&T employee Mark Klein. That room sits at the center of a lawsuit against AT&T for its alleged illegal participation in the government's secret, warrantless spying program.


http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/02/sen-rockefeller.html

Jello-jay-advocates-illegal-spying-on-americans

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/02/05/jello-jay-advocates-illegal-spying-on-americans/


Congress' approval fell to just 22 percent, equaling its poorest grade in
the survey. Both Bush and Congress' marks have dropped by 4 percentage points since early January.

Bush's approval for handling the economy dropped to 29 percent, a slide of
4 percentage points in a month and matching his low on that issue, with noticeable slumps among middle-income people, Southerners and city residents.

[dogfacedboy]

209. The FBI can kiss my American ass. They work for me. n/t

[tuckessee]

211. Does anyone really think the Prez wannabes will oppose this?

I bet no candidate (except Ron Paul) will have the guts or principles to even address this.