GM has biggest-ever automotive co. loss

[onehandle]

Source: AP

DETROIT - General Motors Corp. is reporting the largest annual loss ever for a U.S. automotive company as it offers a new round of buyouts to 74,000 U.S. hourly workers.

GM says Tuesday it lost $38.7 billion in 2007. The loss largely was due to a third-quarter charge related to unused tax credits.

GM announced the buyouts Tuesday morning as it was releasing its fourth-quarter and full-year earnings.

GM will give workers several choices. Retirement-eligible workers will get between $45,000 and $62,500 as an incentive to retire, depending on their skill level. Younger workers can get up to $140,000 if they leave and cut all ties with the company.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080212/ap_on_bi_ge/earns_gm

---

It's my fault. I haven't bought an American car in 26 years and that one was a nine year old $500 Chevy.

[Pale Blue Dot]

1. Those workers who are being bought out will have no where to go.

They may take the money and run, but I think they'll find that if there are any jobs available to them, they will pay significantly less. :-(

[Kokonoe]

2. That poor company

They make more vehicles than any other corporation in the world. Dump old employees and hire new kids for half price. And can't even afford to pay taxes.

[subsuelo]

3. No not your fault

If American cars were as well made as foreign (you got a Toyota or Honda, I am guessing?) then you very likely would not be making that statement.

[LiberalFighter]

18. Don't make a statement like that when you don't know the facts.

The difference in quality between American cars and so called better quality vehicles is barely discernible.

[joeglow3]

23. Amen

If people really looked at the issue, it is a tiny difference. For some reason, the media blows it up. Both new cars I have bought have been GM. Unfortunately (for them), they are 5 and 8 years old and run as well as the day I drove them off the lot.

[LiberalFighter]

41. My current one is a 99 that I bought in 98.

[Owl]

62. Absolutely right.

With normal inexpensive regular maintenance all recent model cars will last 100's of thousands of miles, be it GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc.

[primavera]

77. Tiny difference?

Really? GM makes a car that gets the same 60mpg that my Prius gets, or at least comes close? Damn, I wish I'd known, I would cheerfully have bought an American car, but the only GM cars I found were were road-hogging, emission-belching gas guzzlers.

[DainBramaged]

82. "road-hogging, emission-belching gas guzzlers"

What an intellgent statement, sorta like what we find in GD-P.






Wait till you Peeus catches fire. Or gets run over because you didn't fit in the mirror of an 18 wheeler.

[primavera]

84. If the shoe fits

Sorry, but I refuse to buy into the argument that because so many people elect to drive tanks on the roads, I need to follow their example in order to be safe. Since lower fuel consumption and lower emissions are positives, maybe it's the tank drivers who need to be giving up their tanks in favor of something a little less selfish.

[DainBramaged]

85. You really do your homework, don't you?

The 2008 Tahoe Hybrid, available in two- or four-wheel drive, provides the power and capability you expect from a utility vehicle while offering fuel efficiency you never imagined — an outstanding EPA estimated MPG of 21 city, 22 highway for 2WD models, and 20 city, 20 highway for 4x4. In fact, 2008 Tahoe Hybrid 2WD offers the same EPA estimated city fuel efficiency as a four-cylinder Toyota Camry

http://www.chevrolet.com/hybrid/

Oh, these are for people who can't fit into sardine cans and maybe have larger familes or other priorities. Like traveling with luggage and the dog.

[primavera]

89. 20 mpg is "outstanding"?

Thanks, you just made my point: I get 60 mpg in my Prius, with family, dogs, and luggage.

[DainBramaged]

96. Good for you!!!!

Have fun. Many people don't choose to drive what you do, and we're sorry we aren't ecologically pure like you are. In fact, I think I am done acknowledging your Japanese fetish.

[NickB79]

101. Isn't that cute, you think you'll have a choice in the next 5 years about what you'll drive

When gas hits $5/$6/$7 per gallon in the next 5 years, global warming starts flooding coastal cities, and droughts bake farmland, I'm sure that 20 mpg hybrid Tahoe will be very comforting :sarcasm:

[DainBramaged]

108. I won't pay $25,000 for a Japanese car that's for sure

Keep sending those dollars overseas. A Chevy Cobalt, at $13,000, gets OVER 34 mpg. The difference, is the $12,000 I save over buying the Prius buys a lot of gas and if I choose, makes me money if I invest it. And it keeps Americans employed, something so many of you here don't seem to care about. You pay lip service to Union membership but buy imported crap at the drop of a hat. The participation in the Labor forums proves that.

[NickB79]

112. LOL, you don't know me at all

FWIW, though, I AM a member of the Teamsters Union.

Like I've said in previous posts, I buy imported goods when domestically produced goods don't fit my needs. If domestic manufacturers want my business, then THEY should produce what I demand. That is capitalism at it's core: you build what the consumer wants. When you fail to do that, your company suffers.

[DainBramaged]

115. You are a Teamster and defend the purchase of Japanese cars?

We're done. Goodbye. Enjoy the ride. I don't really believe you, but that's ok. I won't see any more explanations from you.

[NickB79]

117. Like I said, I buy imported when there are no domestic models that fit my needs

Am I supposed to drive a car that doesn't fit my needs, and keep supporting an industry that clearly isn't listening to what it's consumers want, in order to simply delay the pain that they brought upon themselves?

[conflictgirl]

99. How many kids are in your family?

I am curious because in the next few years I hope to be able to replace one of my family cars (considering that my husband is driving a 10 year old car, it will likely be necessary!) and we are very interested in a hybrid. While 20 mpg is better fuel economy than most SUVs it still would not be sufficient to me. My concern with the Prius is that it would be difficult for us to fit all three of our kids in the car. Both of our current cars were acquired before we had our third child (a surprise) and are far too small to be comfortable for 3 kids. I had previously assumed that the Prius would also be too small to comfortably seat 3 kids, but I would love it if I were wrong!

[spinbaby]

135. Go to a dealer and check out the inside of a Prius

One of the things that sold us was that there was a surprising amount of leg room in the back seat--more than in the mid-sized car we'd had before. The kidlets would still have to sit three across, but they'd have leg room.

[amandabeech]

142. You might want to check out the Ford Escape hybrid or its Mercury Mariner twin.

They're smaller SUVs, but in Manhattan stop and go traffic, the full hybrid drive train gave something like 37 mpg. Of course, not much is like the Manhattan stop and go (about which I speak from experience) which almost continually uses the brakes which in a hybrid charges the battery.

Mileage will be less in normal suburban/city driving, but my recollection is that overall mileage is expected to be more than 20 mpg.

I'm at work and can't take time to Google, but you might want to check out what's out there on the Escape/Mariner hybrid.

[subsuelo]

51. Speaking of facts, you have presented none here

[DainBramaged]

52. Why don't you check out JD Power, thems is facts Jack

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand

or isn't that good enough???

[subsuelo]

53. Here's more from JD Power...

BEST BY VEHICLE CLASS
Sub-compact car
Winner: Scion xA (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Hyundai Accent (FOREIGN), Chevrolet Aveo (DOMESTIC)
Compact car
Winner: Honda Civic (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Toyota Prius (FOREIGN), Toyota Corolla (FOREIGN)
Compact Sporty Car
Winner: Mazda Miata (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Mitsubishi Lancer (FOREIGN), Toyota Celica (FOREIGN)
Midsize Sporty Car
Winner: Chevrolet SSR (DOMESTIC), Ford Mustang (tie) (DOMESTIC)
Runner-up: Toyota Solara (FOREIGN)
Midsize Car
Winner: Buick Century (DOMESTIC)
Runners-up: Buick Regal (DOMESTIC), Mercury Sable (DOMESTIC)
Large Car
Winner: Ford Crown Victoria (DOMESTIC)
Runners-up: Mercury Grand Marquis (DOMESTIC), Buick Park Avenue (DOMESTIC)
Compact Premium Sporty Car
Winner: Honda S2000 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: BMW Z4 (FOREIGN), Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class (FOREIGN)
Entry Premium Car
Winner: Infiniti I35 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Cadillac CTS (DOMESTIC), Lexus IS300 (FOREIGN)
Midsize Premium Car
Winner: Lexus GS 300/GS 430 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Acura RL (FOREIGN), Lexus ES 300 (FOREIGN)
Large Premium Car
Winner: Lexus LS 430 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Cadillac DeVille (DOMESTIC), Lincoln Town Car (DOMESTIC)
Premium Sporty Car
Winner: Lexus SC 430 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Ford Thunderbird (DOMESTIC), Chevrolet Corvette (DOMESTIC)
Compact MAV
Winner: Toyota RAV4 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Honda CR-V (FOREIGN), Honda Element (FOREIGN)
Midsize MAV
Winner: Oldsmobile Bravada (DOMESTIC)
Runners-up: Buick Rainier (DOMESTIC), Toyota 4Runner (FOREIGN)
Large MAV
Winner: Toyota Sequoia (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: GMC Yukon (DOMESTIC), Chevrolet Suburban (DOMESTIC)
Large Pickup
Winner: Toyota Tundra (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Ford F-150 Heritage/Ford F-150 Lightning (DOMESTIC), Ford F-150 LD (DOMESTIC)
Midsize Pickup
Winner: Toyota Tacoma (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Ford Ranger (DOMESTIC), Mazda B-Series (FOREIGN)
Van
Winner: Oldsmobile Silhouette (DOMESTIC)
Runners-up: Mercury Monterey (DOMESTIC), Honda Odyssey (FOREIGN)
Midsize Premium MAV
Winner: Lexus GX 470 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Lexus RX 300 (FOREIGN), Infiniti FX-Series (FOREIGN)
Large Premium MAV
Winner: Lexus LX 470 (FOREIGN)
Runners-up: Toyota Land Cruiser (FOREIGN), Cadillac Escalade EXT (DOMESTIC)


Count 'em up.

[NickB79]

100. Some of us consider gas mileage as part of a car's quality

Show me a currently manufactured American car that gets better than 35 mpg highway, and I'll seriously consider buying it.

Chevy has the Aveo, but it's made in South Korea.

Ford has the Focus, but the current model barely gets 35 mpg, and I know that in the past the Focus was manufactured in Mexico.

Saturn has discontinued the Ion, which also got 35 mpg, and is replacing it with the 32-mpg Astra.

Dodge has the 32-mpg Caliber.

In comparison, Toyota has the Corolla, Scion xD, Prius, and hybrid Camry that all get 35-50 mpg highway.

Honda has the Fit, Civic and Civic hybrid, which get 38-50 mpg highway.

BMW has the Mini Cooper, which gets 38+ mpg highway.

Kia has the Spectra and Rio.

Nissan has the 35 mpg Versa.


I bought my girlfriend a 2003 Chevy Malibu last year, and it is honestly a very nice car. The ride is smooth, handling is responsive, and it seems to be a quality automobile. Unfortunately, she only gets 22-25 mpg unless she drives a lot of highway miles. Thankfully, she drives less than 5000 miles per year. I would buy an American-made car in a minute if they manufactured one that got decent gas mileage, but I still haven't found anything that rivals my Scion xA (28 mpg city, 40 mpg highway actual mileage).

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

4. $38.7 billion of Hummers...

[DainBramaged]

5. GM/Ford/Chrysler were once 37% of the Nation's GDP

Ask yourselves this. If you think Domestic cars aren't as good as Foreign transplants, when was the last decade you yourself bought one???? And why not petition your Senator that free trade with Korea and Japan BE free trade, so we can sell our cars over there in the same quantities they sell cars here.


The people being bought out are middle aged highly skilled workers who can never be replaced. They are FAR more skillful than the non-union workers at the Southern Foreign Transplant factories who had to go to much higher levels of automation in car assembly than the Domestics because of the lack of skill and even education in that region of the country. And if you think that's wrong, call Toyota and ask them about the Monday morning blues at their factories. And then ask them why they built the new Car factory in Canada instead of the US.


I'm sure there will be plenty of Union haters and import lovers commenting in this thread. But until you realize how critical the loss of these jobs are, you'll never get it on anything else. The people being bought out are irreplaceable, and GM is doing their best to bust the Union and hire low paid unskilled workers to build the new generation of efficient cars. Cars all too few of you won't buy because you think Foreign made is better.

If Foreign made is better, what's wrong with China? Oh, I forgot, cheap, the mantra of America. The quality goes out before the price goes on.

Have a nice day.


:spank:

[Doctor_J]

6. In Japan the car companies are treated as a national asset

The workers are paid well, and treated well, and the government realizes the business needs to flourish. And of course the car companies don't have to pay for private health insurance for the employees because it's provided by the government.

Here, union workers are considered little better than terrorists - the root of all the ills of the economy, something to be beaten into submission or, better yet, destroyed. The car company management complain about having to add $2000/car for health insurance, but probably all vote GOP.

[Doctor_J]

7. In Japan the car companies are treated as a national asset

The workers are paid well, and treated well, and the government realizes the business needs to flourish. And of course the car companies don't have to pay for private health insurance for the employees because it's provided by the government.

Here, union workers are considered little better than terrorists - the root of all the ills of the economy, something to be beaten into submission or, better yet, destroyed. The car company management complain about having to add $2000/car for health insurance, but probably all vote GOP.

[Nickster]

8. When do you think the US Auto Industry will start pushing for Universal Healthcare? I think that

would do a ton to get the industry competitive again, more than cutting out the skilled labor.

[Tyler Durden]

22. They already tried last year.

Bush wouldn't even MEET with the heads of the US Auto companies until he was forced to...and then he did his "socialized Medicine" spiel.

[karlrschneider]

27. I'm not a union-hater but I fail to see how skill is involved in bolting on a left-rear taillight

every 5 minutes for 8 hours and a hundred and fifty bucks...

[DainBramaged]

35. So tail lights are the only component you are familiar with?

Go back to sleep.


Ever rebuilt an engine? Transmission? Transaxle? Rear? Dashboard? No, of course not.

[karlrschneider]

44. Actually I have, several auto and aircraft engines too.

Airplane systems and avionics as well. I wasn't sleeping.

[physioex]

59. You seem to....

Be higligting only the repetitive nature of assembly line work, but it not quite that simple. Assembly line workers have to be familiar with supply chain management, tracking, and ensuring a job is done properly. It's not simply turn a screw and go on to the next. There is also extensive training required for certain assembly. Also not everyone in the country is ready to become a medical doctor, lawyer, or politician. As a country we must provide liveable employment skilled trades for our citizens.

[karlrschneider]

28. I'm not a union-hater but I fail to see how skill is involved in bolting on a left-rear taillight

every 5 minutes for 8 hours and a hundred and fifty bucks...

[karlrschneider]

29. I'm not a union-hater but I fail to see how skill is involved in bolting on a left-rear taillight

ARGH had no idea this got posted again, it just sat there and did nothing for about 5 minutes
:eyes:

[Nihil]

72. It was busy ...

... bolting on the right-rear tail-light (it wanted a change of view) ...
:P

[tabasco]

71. Businesses don't fail because of bad customers.

Businesses fail because of bad management.

[underpants]

9. Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price

Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price
Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price Union benefits add $1,000 to the sticker price

Is it making any more sense or should I keep posting it?

[DainBramaged]

11. So you are against Union workers building cars? And they should not get benefits?

America, home of the cheap.:eyes:

[underpants]

13. I was being sarcastic

:sarcasm:

It is an old talking point about how unfair it is to expect the car companies to have to pay those benefits....that they agreed to. Also this skips over the factor of executive pay as well as the fact that the "Workers" only assemble what they are told to assemble the decisions that are crushing these companies are made by the executives.

[Kokonoe]

42. Thats how much it costs to build the whole car

And that includes heating the factory for the workers. No kidding.

[joeglow3]

24. Wait just a minute!!!

I would LOVE to know how many hypocrites here say just what you said and then walk across the street to buy a foreign car because it is cheaper.

I agree with you AND back it up (own nothing but GM cars).

[DainBramaged]

31. I own GM, have for 40 years, no other brand

I'd walk than drive anything else.

[karlrschneider]

45. Good thing you don't have an open mind, your brains would fall out.

oh, too late...

[DainBramaged]

49. God, another jerk off telling me what to buy instead of Union built Domestics

My prerogative, as is clicking he red x.
I won't own Japanese or Korean cars, nor German. And don't think that "Domestic content" bullshit fools us.

Goodbye

[karlrschneider]

50. That's funny as shit coming from somebody who would rather walk than buy anything

but one particular brand of car. Talk about a fucking moron...

[Owl]

63. How wonderfully un-civil of you

to bring nothing constructive to this discourse.

[joeglow3]

86. Wow. Just wow.

Let me guess, you hate GM for laying off their employees, but buy into the propaganda that their cars are inferior to other companies.

[primavera]

91. Can you tell me how many "domestics" are "Union built"?

Sincerely, I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but my impression is that I'm constantly running across stories in the newspapers about how GM is closing its plants in the US and opening up production facilities in Mexico, at which I'm guessing very few Union workers are employed. Is that not the case? Conversely, I hear that many of the brands you describe as "foreign," such as the Toyotas, are in fact being built in factories in the US. I know my Prius was built in a plant in the US, in New Hampshire, if I recall correctly. I do want very much to support union workers, but, frankly, it sounds like there, too, one would be of more use buying a "foreign" car built by union workers in the US than by buying an "American" car built by slave labor in Mexico. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, though.

[DainBramaged]

97. "I'm not trying to be antagonistic"

Do your own research. Oh, amd call Toyota and ask if the UAW builds your Prius.

Buh bye

[primavera]

118. But I can see you are

Evidently you either don't know or don't care whether the "American" cars to which you're so devoted are made by US workers or by slave labor in Mexico, anymore than you know or care whether the "foreign" cars made by Toyota factories in the US employ US workers or not. In sum, you know nothing and care only about bashing brand names you consider unAmerican. I see. Well, that was enlightening. You have a good night sir.

[DainBramaged]

120. Slave labor? You are the fool not I

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/World_Report/Mexico_Reality_Vs_Perception.S200.A2178.html

You don't even know who manufactures in Mexico.

Most of the major U.S. manufacturers have a presence in Mexico - DaimlerChrysler, Ford, and General Motors - as do Nissan and Volkswagen, which have major operations there. Although once dominated by Chrysler and Volkswagen, the market has changed radically in recent years, with GM now controlling more than 28 percent of the vehicle market.

To examine more closely what has transpired in Mexico, let's look at a slice of the industry and its largest player - GM. The world's No. 1 automaker currently operates three major manufacturing sites in Mexico in addition to numerous component and subsidiary operations, employing a total of more than 80,000 employees.

The Silao site consists of an assembly plant and stamping plant (operational since 1997). The Ramos Arizpe complex houses an engine plant, assembly plant and stamping plant. And finally, the Toluca complex consists of an engine plant and foundry. GM's biggest move came when it decided to build a new compact car in Mexico (based on Europe's subcompact Opel Corsa). Badged as the Chevy Joy/Swing, it has been extremely successful, catapulting GM to the No. 1 slot in the market.

Mexico's total market is less than 600,000 units, which amounts to about two weeks of sales in the U.S. But the attraction of building vehicles in Mexico goes beyond selling in the Mexican market, for there are many advantages to producing in Mexico.

Mexico's quality first-rate

Frankly, the perception is that Mexico - having lazy, uneducated workers, little capital, low wages, and poor quality - builds junk. Nothing could be further from the truth. GM's plant in Silao produces Suburbans, Tahoes and Yukons (GM's large sport-utility vehicles. The majority is shipped to the U.S. to meet the incredible demand for these full-size SUVs and supplement capacity at the other plant that builds these products, located in Janesville, Wis.

Silao has only 6 percent of the automation that its sister plants have, as labor costs only about $2.50 per hour. Yet despite this disparity in automation and employee wages, the Silao plant is one of GM's best. The quality coming from there beats all other GM C/K plants, whether measured by J.D. Power or by the amount of after-sale warranty work required.

Silao is also GM's safest plant - this is no run-down sweatshop. And despite its lack of automation, Silao now beats many of the more automated U.S. plants in productivity performance. And to blow away the myth that Mexican workers are lazy, both the absentee rate and employee turnover rate are among GM's lowest.

An analysis of productivity results for Chrysler's, Ford's and GM's Mexican plants over the past four years reveals a strong and consistent improvement rate. Chrysler's Lago Alberto plant has improved 25 percent from its 1994 productivity levels, while Ford's Cuautitlan Truck plant and GM's Ramos Arizpe plants have shown a 13 percent improvement over that same time frame. Chrysler's Saltillo plant, achieving a 10.3 percent improvement in 1997, is now 14 percent more productive than its sister plant, the Chrysler St. Louis North plant, which also produces Dodge Ram pickups.
Next, the perception that manufacturers are simply exploiting the Mexican workers and shipping junk could not be further from the truth. Silao, in fact, is representative of many of the automotive plants in Mexico. Forget the labor rate. Any advantage there may be is washed out by the freight costs involved in shipping product to the U.S.

Also, the workers are employed in clean, modern plants. The administrative and engineering staffs are highly educated. Application of lean manufacturing processes in many cases surpasses those at plants in the U.S.



Now I will click the x. Slave labor my ass. Too bad we can't organize in Mexico. But that would mean getting Volkswagen and Nissan on board too, and god forbid they were unionized.

[primavera]

124. That's great, but wasn't your point about union workers?

I'm delighted to hear that the US auto companies aren't treating their Mexican employees badly, truly, that's good news. But I thought your whole beef with foreign cars was that they didn't employ US Union workers, so we should all feel guilty for not buying American cars. But, as you just said, the American auto companies aren't hiring US Union workers, they're hiring non-Union Mexican workers. So how does it help US Union workers for me to buy "American" cars made by non-Union Mexican workers as opposed to "foreign" cars I know to be built in the US by Union workers? Sorry, I'm confused here. :shrug:

[Kolesar]

58. No heart for you!

[hamsterjill]

54. All GM here, too

I buy nothing BUT GM.

[boricua79]

10. it's the fault of the company, for offering sub-standard crap

the time has come for offering fuel-efficient, eco-friendly cars.

Those that don't move that way, will die off.

[DainBramaged]

12. You know not what you speak about.

Typical.

Know what the least expensive car in the country is? Chevy Aveo, three years running. Gets 35MPG highway for under $10,000. Nice price for great gas mileage.

http://www.chevrolet.com/fuelsolutions/ http://www.chevrolet.com/pop/electriccar/2007/process_en.jsp

Click above and wake up.

[boricua79]

19. Oh God of the cars has spoken!

DUM, DUM DUUUUUMMMM!!!

I'm a consumer. I only buy Japanese. Why? cause American companies haven't gotten their acts together. Don't tell me why I buy the cars I buy. I know why.

[DainBramaged]

20. I speak by clicking red X's

Cya, keep supporting our Unions.

Not.

[boricua79]

25. no wonder, you're a unionist

no problems with unions per say, but you have a vested interest in supporting Detroit. I don't.

[joeglow3]

38. Some of us support JOBS

We aren't those people who bitch and moan about outsourcing and then do our part to ensure it happens.

[Owl]

40. Amen.

[Libby2]

139. Double Amen!

[lectrobyte]

68. The reason that Aveo is cheap is because it is a Daewoo built in Korea

with some Chevy stickers on it. The sadder thing is, though, as small and as underpowered as it is, the Pontiac Vibe (a rebadged Toyota) gets better gas mileage.

[DainBramaged]

81. It does??? Let's check the specs

First, the Pontiac 126 HP 5-speed: 26/33 (city/highway mpg), 118 in AWD with mandatory Automatic, and it costs $17,440 base, so that extra $7440 buys a lot of gas.


So the Pontiac is a rebadged Matrix? For more money? Because it's a underpowered Toyota?:rofl:

[NickB79]

103. And it's made in South Korea

Wait, weren't you the one advocating buying American-made cars built in American, unionized plants, and railing on against Asian imports? Weird.

[DainBramaged]

109. Do you own a car? Do you drive?

You don't read well either. Did you click on the links? No? What did I state, the Aveo is a cheap car with decent millage. Is logic failing you? Do I wish we built it here? Yes, so your assumption makes an ass of you.

[NickB79]

110. So, you don't care that it's made in South Korea?

Well, that's nice, then you shouldn't care that my car (also a cheap car with decent mileage) is made in Japan. Glad we cleared that up.

[DainBramaged]

113. Your rhetorical questions are getting boring

goodbye. When you learn to read, we'll maybe talk some more. And I'd still rather have a Cavalier or Cobalt than a cheap Japanese car.

This thread was about jobs, and you evaded my questions every reply.


I wonder why?

[NickB79]

116. I'm evading your questions? LOL, that's rich

Specifically, what questions of yours haven't I answered?

I'll answer it when you answer my question: what difference is there in buying a car made in South Korea (the Aveo you endorsed) vs. one made in Japan?

[MilesColtrane]

136. Sorry, GM lost me after I purchased an '85 Blazer.

They may make great cars now, but I'll never buy one again.

[Triana]

14. They refuse to stop manufacturing tanks (SUVs) and refuse to agree to higher

CAFE standards. They probably pay their friggin corprat lobbyists more $$$ to go to Washington and lobby against it than they pay all those people they're letting go, combined.

I think they bring some of this on themselves - or rather upon the poor workers who pay the real price. The CxOs get rich and stay rich either way.

Since the assinine decisions are made at the top, seems to me that's where the jobs ought to be lost - fire the whole lot of CxOs of GM - take away their lifetime bennies, and their golden umbrellas and whatnot, and leave the line managers and workers alone. They'd probably do a better job of running the company themselves.

[DainBramaged]

15. Do you think Toyota Nissan and Honda don't make gas guzzlers either??

Heard of the Tundra? How about the Nissan Titan full size trucks and Armada 12 MPG full size SUV? Honda Ridgeline? Acura, Lexus, Infinity, I could go on, but you know everything there is to know about the auto business.

Know who is suing the EPA to DELAY the new CAFE standards??

Toyota, that's who.


America, disinformation at it's finest.

[Triana]

17. Did I SAY they didn't?

That was your ASSumption - not my words. Keep your ASSumptions out of my mouth, thankyouverymuch.

IMO, the manufacture of SUVs ought to be banned for all of them - ALL of them. And CAFE standards should be non-negotiable - period.

Then, let the chips fall where they may.

Once the adjustment is made - the manufacturers will buck up or fold. THEIR choice.

[CRF450]

64. I agree with that.

If you look at trucks, SUV's, sports cars, luxury cars, they dont get any better fuel milage than the same class of vehicles from the domestic makers. Toyota and Honda has the best compact cars, and thats pretty much it.

[primavera]

78. At least Toyota and Honda are offering an alternative

No one ever said that Japanese car companies were incapable of making gas guzzlers. The point is that they are also offering the Prius and the Insight, which makes them unique on the market. If you want to be an eco-friendly driver, the American automobile industry leaves you no alternative but to buy Japanese.

[DainBramaged]

80. And GM has the Malibu and Saturn Vue in hybrid models, your point?

Ford has one, and there will be full sized hybrids from GM this summer. Oh, can Toyotas run E85 as an alternative??

[primavera]

83. Neither of which come close...

... to the gas mileage of the Japanese hybrids. I'm aware that there are American hybrids out there, but I have yet to find one that managed any better than 35mpg. Okay, it's better than the 20mpg most American cars get, but it's still a long way short of what a Prius or Insight gets.

[DainBramaged]

88. So everybody should drive Japanese hybrids and forsake choice or need??

[primavera]

90. People who wish to consider themselves responsible....

... citizens of this country and this planet should do what they can to reduce their consumption of fuel and the quantity of toxic emissions they produce. What each individual is capable of doing obviously depends upon their individual circumstances - what is necessary and appropriate for a person who regularly needs to haul heavy loads or who lives in an area which regularly requires a four wheel drive vehicle is plainly going to be different for someone who uses a vehicle exclusively for commuting short distances in an urban area. That determination has to be made by each individual and if you feel that your circumstances really require you to drive a Hummer in order to convey yourself half a mile to work every day, well, then that's your choice. Personally, living in Maine, I find that my Prius gets me and my family around just fine through any and all weather conditions and across all the terrain I ever need to cross, in comfort and with exceptional performance and safety, as well as getting three times the gas mileage you get. It's not perfect, so in the summer, I ride a scooter which gets 120 mpg. Unfortunately, living in Maine, it's not safe to ride a scooter during the winter, so I compromise and drive the Prius and accept that I'll have to consume some additional fuel during the winter months and that's okay, that's life. But, between the two, I'm averaging over the course of the year about 90 mpg for my transportation needs.

Maybe your circumstances are such that you feel that 20mpg is the best that you can do. That's your choice, but my choice is to purchase vehicles which offer rather better performance and until Detroit expresses an interest in providing such vehicles, I will continue to give my business to Japanese auto makers. As soon as GM wishes to build a vehicle which compares, I will be only too happy to buy it. Like so many Americans, I would have given almost anything for an EV-1. Unfortunately, the American auto industry, in its wisdom, chose to ignore the wishes of consumers and killed the project. The American auto industry has repeatedly made, and continues to make, the choice to not respond to consumers' desires for fuel efficient, low emission vehicles. That is their choice. Happily, that cuts both ways: consumers are also at libert to make their choices, which is precisely why GM is losing billions every year and Toyota is now the number 1 car producer on the planet.

[DainBramaged]

94. Good for you!!

Thanks for the extended lecture I hope you feel better for it.:smoke:


You have no idea what I drive, but that's ok. What I don't drive are Foreign cars. Because the difference between compromising my ecological integrity and giving my money to the Japanese makes the choice easy.

[NickB79]

102. The Malibu hybrid?!?! LOL

Have you looked at the specs on the Malibu Hybrid? The standard model gets 22 city/30 highway, while the hybrid gets 24 city/32 highway. The ONLY reason to buy the hybrid is to get the tax exemption from the government, which is a cop-out since the amount of CO2 and fuel you save is minuscule.

"Oh, can Toyotas run E85 as an alternative??"

Considering the environmental impact of ethanol produced from corn here in the US, I'm glad they can't: http://www1.umn.edu/umnnews/Feature_Stories/The_dark_side_of_biofuels.html

"The land conversions pump out 17 to 423 times more carbon than the annual savings from replacing fossil fuels with the biofuels. This constitutes a "carbon debt" that the biofuels produced on the land must pay off before they can begin to have the effect of cutting greenhouse gas emissions."

If you care at all about slowing global warming, burning E85 is FAR worse than gasoline for CO2 emissions.

[DainBramaged]

111. You still haven't told us what you drive

but that's ok. I'm realizing you don't give a shit about jobs that don't directly affect you. When job are lost in the auto industry, the trickle down effect is substantial to neighborhoods and proximity to the factories, which depend on the plants for their lifeblood. Simple economics.

But you aren't a Union member either, so you'll never understand that.

[NickB79]

114. Actually, I did in #100, and have told you specifically in previous threads

A 2005 Scion xA, made in Japan.

And yes, I AM a union member (Teamsters), in the dairy industry.

Thinking about this from my perspective, I came up with this analogy.

Suppose there were two plants that made cheese, yogurt, etc. One is unionized and the other isn't. The non-union plant produces a wide variety of flavors of yogurt and cheese, while the unionized one makes just plain yogurt and cheddar cheese despite their consumer's requests for more flavors. Would you eat nothing but plain yogurt and cheddar cheese your entire life just to support those union members while their management ignores it's customers?

[CRF450]

121. Yet, if you think about it...

When you look at SUV's, trucks, performance and luxury cars. The imports dont get any better fuel milage, or overall performance than the domestics.

A Subaru Impreza WRX STI has a 305hp 2.5L 4 cylinder engine, its fuel economy is 17/23. My 01 Trans Am is rated 19/28 and has a 325hp 5.7L v8. (345hp to be honest, GM under-rated the LS1 f-bodies) I know a couple Impreza owners, and they dont get any better mpg than I do, which I average around 22mpg, and so do they. I'v reached 31mpg on the interstate, they havent. How do you think my v8 gets comparable fuel milage to their inline 4cyl while mine has a little more power?

[primavera]

126. That's true, no argument there

If you compare one SUV to another, I'm sure they come out pretty much the same, regardless of who is building them. And if I needed a SUV or heavy truck, I would probably buy an American one, as it really wouldn't make much difference whether it was Japanese or American. My point was only that companies like Toyota and Honda are offering, to those consumers who want them, more fuel-efficient alternatives to SUVs and the other heavy, high-powered - and consequently more demanding of fuel - vehicles which dominate the US automobile market. To those consumers who don't need 300+ hp, and would rather spend less money on gas, the American automobile industry has little or nothing to offer. Given the substantial number of Priuses and other hybrid vehicles which have been sold over the past couple of years as gas prices has skyrocketed, the number of consumers looking for alternatives to SUVs is plainly sizable, and US companies are missing out on that market by electing to continue pushing, big, heavy, high-powered vehicles.

[CRF450]

128. They continue to do so because they're still selling alot of them.

Even with the high gas prices I'm still seing many new trucks and SUV's on the road. When the Chevy Volt is released, I'm pretty GM would makin a killing on that car. Even though the Prius is selling like hotcakes from Toyota, I even many new Toyota trucks and SUV's on the road, especially the new Tundra and the Tacoma. I was really tempted to buying a Tacoma but because the 05+ year models were still pretty expensive at the time, I went for an 04 Dodge Dakota 4x4 quad cab (or you could call it a crew cab) which was alot less expensive. I need that truck for my summer job.

[primavera]

134. Everyone's needs are different

I feel like I ought to apologize because I'm kind of excited to see more fuel efficient cars becoming more readily available these days and I tend to get carried away, but I'm the first to admit that I'm an urban office worker, I have no need for four wheel drive or the ability to haul heavy loads. But obviously many people do in fact need heavier-duty vehicles and, for them, a Prius isn't going to do them much good. But there are a lot of urban dwellers like me, who don't really need the extra muscle, and, for them, a hybrid might be a good way of saving some money on gas. And who knows, if enough consumers express an interest in more fuel-efficient vehicles, it may put pressure on the auto industry to do better than they've been doing and we may eventually see production of heavy duty trucks and SUVs which get appreciably better gas mileage, you never know. Call me an optimist! :-)

[CRF450]

138. Hey, I'd gladly buy a hybrid that gets 50+mpg, problem is...

None of the current ones appeal to me at all. I'v driven a Prius before, to me it drove and handled like crap, it was slow as hell, its fwd, and it just looks butt ugly to me. I'm sorry but I wouldn't stand driving a car like that. I know Lexus has a high performance hybrid sedan, and its a really nice car, but it doesn't get that much better mpg than other high powered sedans. I mean, whats the point in spending 40 grand on a premium car for better fuel milage, and it only gets less than 18mpg more than other non-hybrid high performance premium cars? The new Pontiac G8 is going to available to consumers in March, I'd take that over Lexus's hybrid anyday and save the extra 10 grand.

[ReformedChris]

46. Hopefully when the Chevy Volt comes out it will turn the corner for the quality you seek nt.

[NickB79]

104. It's projected to cost $30,000-$40,000 too

I have this sinking suspicion that there won't be a lot of middle-class people with the money to buy a Volt in 2010, when we're still in a recession.

[Kokonoe]

47. GM has the most fuel efficient cars in the US

Not only that, studies have shown Japanese companies exaggerate mileage and horsepower, and US companies underestimate.

[NickB79]

105. And those studies would be where, exactly?

Because my Japanese-made Scion xA gets 40 mpg highway, 2 mpg better than the sticker showed.

A link to back your claim would be helpful.

[Kolesar]

60. You like to start fights on the forum

[bemildred]

16. They ought to be in oil like Exxon. nt

[closeupready]

21. How does a company lose $38 billion and survive?

I can't get my mind around that concept.

[Kokonoe]

48. Actually they gave the union that money to payoff retiree

healthcare. Now they have the same plan as non-union japaneese companies. Their going to save that much in taxes. it's only on the books, not real money. Stocks are up.

[sarcasmo]

26. Glad my Dad got out with his Pension. I sure hope the Pension last him until his death.

What a scary freaking Country this has become.

[Auggie]

33. Mine too. Though retirement benefits are the real killer for GM.

They promised my Dad 100% medical benefits coverage if he retired early at age 55. This was in 1984, and they kept their promise -- for about 15 years. Little by little they've been chipping away at the health coverage. It's still better than nothing of course.

[Summer93]

30. GM and United Auto Workers (UAW)

GM has moved the health care issue to the Union. I don't have numbers about it. I paid attention as I am a recipient. They no longer cover office visits (that was a shock at $300 each) and it is necessary to mail prescriptions to Michigan and then the drug gets mailed back.

[flvegan]

32. This is more than just cars, people.

Consider that GM still owns almost half of GMAC. You know, the subprime lender? GMAC itself lost somewhere between $700-800 million dollars alone.

GM is actually seeing MORE sales of automobiles recently, and still edges Toyota as the largest automaker in the game.

This loss is also an accounting charge. They aren't exactly writing a check for $39 billion.

I've owned several American automobiles in my time. They were 50/50 excellent/crap.

[Auggie]

34. Right. You could get a home loan from them.

[liberal N proud]

36. I actually like the styling of many of the GM products this year

Just can't afford to buy one.
Maybe that $600 bu$h is sending me will let me buy a new car. LOL

[conflictgirl]

37. More bad news for Michigan

My father works for GM. He's 58, not quite old enough to retire yet but not at such an age that he could easily find employment elsewhere. There are a lot of people like him around here, and I worry about that.

I'll be the first to point out what GM has done wrong, particularly the way they've dragged their heels about fuel economy issues. Their design leaves much to be desired, too. At the same time though, I think the "quality" issue is a bit of a red herring - since we get GM discounts due to my dad working there most of my cars have been GM, and right now our household cars are 7 and 9 years old and still running well, only requiring the regular maintenance stuff.

Honestly my biggest concern in all of this is what these job losses will do to communities like mine, where GM is the only real game in town. I don't live far from Flint and saw everything that happened there. Even though I hold GM responsible for most of their own losses and have significant issues with their management (and ineffectual union!) and hold my state responsible for being too dependent on one industry for far too long, it's still hard not to feel worried about how this announcement will likely ultimately bring even more bad economic news for an already struggling state. :(

[ReformedChris]

39. A sad day for American Motors, but blame the overpaid Rick Wagoner and GM upper management..

For not designing quality cars for their hard working labor to produce. If you put a quality product out there, people will buy it plain and simple. GM has built good cars over the last 10 years, but the garbage starts to pile up. Plus it always feels with a GM vehicle that you know its going to die somewhere between 120,000 and 160,000 miles regardless of how much love you put into it.

[ileus]

66. Sad day for AMC was a long time ago...

[DainBramaged]

76. Yup, too bad too, little devils

[Blue_Tires]

43. very sad news

at least wall street and the wsj will be pleased...NOTHING makes them more euphoric than to watch unionized workers disappear...

imo, there were only two of the last powerful, high-profile union workforce industries: automakers and airlines....the powers that be have been chipping away at both for more than two decades, and will not rest until this nation is officially corporate-run...

[Summer93]

55. EV

IIRC the American electric car was created and then crushed before selling to the public. How many years ago was that?

The American car companies are still trying to sell the biggest baddest truck because it has worked in the past Even though the price of gasoline will make it difficult to continue using them.

It seems that the draw for Toyota has been the Prius. I see that the Saturn Vue may be a new offering to Americans.

[Kolesar]

57. I doubt if the Prius is even in the top five of Toyota sales

There is only a certain number of people who want a car like that--a small car.

[lectrobyte]

67. Actually, I think it is about 4th or 5th. They sold 200,000 in '06, 250,000

in '07.

[Kolesar]

79. Thanks

I think there is a limit to how many people want such cars. That is until we get gasoline shortages. People will start buying 1900 pound econoboxes then. pardon the pessimism

[primavera]

92. In Europe, quite a lot of people drive small, fuel-efficient cars

And they have no fuel shortages. People just got sick of paying an arm and a leg for gas when, for the kind of driving most people did, there was no need. Perhaps then there's hope that we too can learn the same lesson.

[lectrobyte]

122. I'm sure GM or Ford would love to have

sold another half million cars or so in the last 2 years. The cold weather cuts my mileage 10% or so, but that happens with most any car.

[NickB79]

107. Small? It's a mid-size sedan

The very first Prius was a compact car, but the past 5 years they've produced a Prius roughly equivalent to the size of the Camry, Ford Taurus, or at the least the Chevy Malibu.

[DainBramaged]

61. Saturn Green vue, Malibu hybrid, Tahoe Hybrid, Silverado hybrids

and all of them can use E85. Toyota has the Prius and Camry, and NO hybrid trucks. And GM has diesels available in their trucks, Toyota, Honda and Nissan don't offer them.

[Kolesar]

56. And GM drops a half a dollar per share

http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=GM
GM $26.60 -0.52 / -1.92%

This loss was "already factored into the price/share"

[ileus]

65. I used to buy "only" GM, then I bought a new 01 Alero...

Needless to say it was the biggest POS i'd ever owned (and I'd owned a couple of k-cars)

Front Wheel bearings out at 57k miles the service manager told me how lucky I was the unit had a 60k warranty.

Sometimes it would just refuse to start (no pressure to the fuel rail) GM never could duplicate problem and it didn't kick a code.

The signal lights stopped working, they wanted me to pay for it even tough the knew a recall was coming the next month. "You pay for it now and you'll get a refund when the recall comes thru next month." Or just drive around with intermittant signals for a while...

Delay wipers/ Low position would studder if the temp was much below 32F, if you wanted to use them in freezing weather you had to run on high or put up with them stalling/stuttering.

Finally at 73k the 3400 puked it's head gasket and I traded it for a Ford.

I left out all the small problems like the key getting stuck unless you smacked the shifter, or the passangers side window making a gear meshing sound going up, the sun roof acting kind of funny when opening, and all the interior trim warping in the sun...and several other small things.

Yeah I'm going to stay away from GM products for a while, though they're my favorite domestic make behind Jeep.

Ever wonder why you don't see that many Alero's on the road these days???

[DainBramaged]

73. Uh, GM closed down Oldsmobile in 2004, maybe that's why no new Oldsmobiles

on the road. The division was known for it's "Grandfatherly" image. Sorry for your bad luck. Maybe in in another 7 years you can try a GM product again.:rofl:

[ileus]

137. I'll buy GM again but I'm not sure about a "car"

I have plenty of faith in their SUV / Truck lineup.

[fujiyama]

69. I have a several year old Satun Ion

Decent car. It drives...BUT...

It's built cheaply. The fit and finish just doesn't match my sister's Corolla. The Corolla also drives so smooth and gets better gas mileage. Even new, my car never drove like that. Even though my car's horsepower is higher, the acceleration on the Corolla seems better. The interior for the Corolla is very dull, but it doesn't look like cheap plastic crap inside. The interior panels in my Saturn don't overlap and isn't very well put together.

I've had to replace the wiper transmission because the cheap plastic broke. Granted, that's because of this awful weather and could have happened to any car...

GM has likely improved over 4-5 years (and I'll always be a Corvette fan). Newer Saturns are nicer. Still, I seriously doubt I'll even consider a Saturn when buying a new car...

[DainBramaged]

74. Oh well. guess Saturn isn't the car for you.

What year was it? and did you buy it new? And what did you say the price was?

[lancer78]

70. I say only this.

I looked at new cars recently. To be honest with you, there were no domestic cars that I wanted to buy. The mpg was too low. The only domestic cars that had decent mpg looked like dogshit. That is why I bought a Nissan. I liked the looks, and since it had a 6 speed manual in a 4 cylinder, it gets great mileage. I know someone above was talking about the "cheap". Sorry to burst your bubble, but the nissan was $4500 more then the domestics I looked at. I think all the GM workers should strike until management hires a good design team.

[DainBramaged]

75. I am glad you paid $4500 more to the country of Japan

I am sure they will loan the money right back to us.:eyes:

Oh, and if Bissan is so popular, why are they considered the dogshit of the big 3 of Japanese cars?:rofl:


Oh, and This is what dogshit looks like

I never saw a car made from it before? That would be a record.

[tabasco]

87. Blaming the customers for a failing business

is moronic. I agree with Schneider on something, anyway.

[primavera]

93. Agreed

I feel like I'm listening to telegraph workers rail about the evils of telephones - they just have too much invested persoanlly to accept that they're engaged in producing dinosaurs. I feel for them, but I'm not going to go back to communicating by telegraph when there are so many better alternatives.

[DainBramaged]

95. Your car is Japanese, who cares?

When you are ready to invest in America again, let us know. Until then, we have no more to discuss.

[fascisthunter]

106. Invest in America? If He Pays Taxes He Already Does

He doesn't have to buy a product if he doesn't want to, regardless of where it was created. Once companies sent jobs over sees, that talking point of (buy only American) died.

If people don't buy GM's product, that is GM's fault, and nobody elses.

[lakeguy]

129. why dont u take a deep breath

and look at where the car is made instead of assuming because it's a foreign name that it is made in a foreign country. toyota, nissan and honda are responsible for nearly all the growth in auto jobs in the US these days. how's chevy doing? ford was holding for a while but they are moving too. what good does it do to buy a shitty car with shitty gas mileage made in a foreign country? does it matter what name is on the hood? to you it does i guess, too bad.

i refuse to give money to a company that continues to destroy the planet while shipping jobs overseas. i don't care what their name is or where they were founded.

[conflictgirl]

98. Can you educate me, then?

I am far from being a GM apologist, but other than gas mileage issues, in what ways are the Japanese car makers so far advanced that it's like comparing telephones to telegraphs? The last time I bought a brand new car was 2001 when I bought a Saturn, and I researched all the available cars I was considering which included models from Honda and Toyota. I test drove an Accord and a Camry as well. Even though I'd had many people recommend Hondas to me because of how long they allegedly last and hold their value, I absolutely hated driving it. I actually loved the Camry quite a bit, but IIRC it was $5000+ more than the Saturn and I didn't have that much money to play around with, nor did I see that there was a substantial enough difference to justify the extra cost. What information am I missing about why my Saturn is an outdated "telegraph" compared to the the Honda or Toyota?

FYI, I genuinely want to know and am not being sarcastic.

[primavera]

119. Only in terms of fuel consumption

For decades, we've been hearing how electric cars aren't viable and it isn't possible to make gas combustion cars significantly more fuel efficient than they already are. We're told that high fuel efficiency vehicles are the laughable products of hobbyists garage efforts. What I've discovered since buying a Prius and doing a little online research is that all of the negative images circulated about such vehicles are a complete crock. The performance is equal to or better than traditional gas-combustion only vehicles; they have all of the same features and amenities; relying more upon electricity, they have fewer components which wear down over time, so have better tracks records for reliability and longevity; they produce emissions so low as to be virtually unreadable; they're silent, comfortable, and capable of driving a third of the way across the country of a tank of gas. In every respect, they are perfectly viable vehicles which entail none of the mythical compromises that the American automobile industry would have you believe. Speaking purely personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to spend more money on gasoline when there was a perfectly acceptable alternative that equalled or exceeded the performance of a vehicle which achieved poor gas mileage. At this stage, because US car companies haven't chosen to invest in the R&D to produce a greater number of fuel efficient cars, one's choices are admittedly much more limited, but that is a reflection purely of marketing strategies, as the technology to produce such vehicles in all different shapes and sizes to suit different needs, yet still be highly fuel efficient, plainly exists, it's just not being utilized. But I'm hoping that it will be difficult to put the genie back in the bottle and convince consumers that they need to spend three times more on gas than is necessary, so hopefully more companies will follow the lead of companies like Toyota and Honda and produce these types of vehicles in a greater variety of packages than is presently available. In the meantime, the Prius is a great car, capable of holding five passengers comfortably, complete with more technical bells and whistles than I could possibly begin to explain, including front, side, curtain, top, bottom airbags everywhere, advanced tration control, ABS brakes, computerized climate control, Bluetooth phone, onboard GPS, you name it, it's got it.

Anyway, that was what I was thinking of when I described the traditional American car as a dinosaur.

[conflictgirl]

132. Thanks for answering

Those factors do make a difference, and it is a shame that few auto companies (American or otherwise) have really pursued ideas of cars that don't run on gasoline. I've been on the waiting list for the DVD of "Who Killed the Electric Car?" for a while at my library, and my husband is currently taking a college course with a prof who said he knows of researchers who were working on viable cars that could run on water and were paid by the govt to stop researching it. As much as my father and my local community depend on GM at the moment, I absolutely think it's despicable that the technology is already out there and is actively being suppressed.

That said, when I bought my Saturn in 2001, fuel economy and affordability were both my primary concerns. I managed to get a brand new American made car that got decent gas mileage - 27 mpg city/37 highway - for $16,000. That gas mileage obviously isn't quite the same as the Prius claims (though I understand some say their Prius doesn't get as much as is advertised, its still considerably more than my Saturn) but the cost of the car plus the fuel economy met my goals at the time. Luckily its worked out fairly well so far - the car is long since paid off, now 7 years old with 125K miles and still only requiring normal maintenance type repairs. Because my dad works for GM I do feel good when I can buy a car that I directly link to keeping him employed. But at the same time, GM is not investing heavily in fuel-economy innovations ("Flex Fuel" doesn't count to me) and I've heard that Saturn's quality has declined considerably just in the past 7 years, so I can't say for certain that my next car would absolutely be GM or even American-made again.

I do believe that peak oil is more than just a theory and I don't think that any car that relies on oil at all is really solving the problem - it's just to a greater or lesser degree. Because I see first hand the local and personal impact of buying American, that is always my preference - but my concern for the environment takes greater priority at this point. I hope that the American car manufacturers won't make me choose one or the other next time I'm ready to buy another car.

[gravity]

123. There are few differences today

It used to be reliability, but American cars have been on par with the japanese for over 10 years, and are even more reliable than Europe. Fuel economy has been about the same for some time too.

Build quality, especially in the interior, had been inferior to what Japan had to offer though. This is cosmetic mostly, but it made Amercian cars feel cheap, when compared to foreign models. The bean counters were cutting costs in the wrong areas.

I would say that now, GM is trying their best to correct these problems and are releasing cars that are arguably better than what Japan is offering. They are building good fuel effecient vehicles and are researching heavily on green technologies. Unfortunately, past mistakes destroyed their reputation, and it will be a while that perception to change.

[Xenotime]

125. HA HA HA Serves those fat fucks right for ruining the environment..

and not doing something to fix it. Their large SUVs and trucks were pouring money into the pockets of big oil.

[polticalpout]

130. Right, and the other car companies are angels because they have the Prius!!

So fuck those fat fucking Union workers too, right on man! Also Fuck GM for giving their workers great wages and health benefits! -sarc

[olddad56]

127. I've owned two Hondas...

one made in Japan, one made in the US. One is 18 years old and is still on the road after 300,000 miles. The other is a piece of shit. Figure out which one was made in the US.

[polticalpout]

131. How about some fair trade laws for U.S. car companies?

aka the VAT advantage.

Nations give their companies a tax break for exporting their cars to the U.S. and then charge a tax to American car companies who import into their country to make up for the original tax break, how is that fair? What doesn't the U.S. do the same thing to imports??

[DainBramaged]

133. None of the import lovers cares about that, just give them their Prius'

Or other transplant/import. And fuck the Unions, let the workers become greeters at WalMart.:grr:

[liberal1973]

140. Oh well

Remember GM hired those far right sobs rush limpballs, tubie keith, and sean handy to do ads.

[DainBramaged]

141. So the workers should be punished? They do ads on Olbermann too

Shitty logic, but why should you care about their jobs.:wtf: :mad: