Israeli ambassador to Sweden vandalises Palestinian artwork

[rooboy]

Israel's ambassador to Sweden was kicked out of Stockholm's Museum of National Antiquities after he destroyed an artwork featuring a picture of a Palestinian suicide bomber, news reports said.

The incident, widely reported in the Swedish media, occurred at the opening on Friday of the "Making Differences" exhibit, part of an upcoming international conference on genocide hosted by the Swedish Government and in which Israel is scheduled to participate.

"I was really looking forward to seeing what the artists had done. Instead, I was met by a picture of a smiling suicide bomber, the woman who killed 21 people in Haifa a few months ago," ambassador Zvi Mazel told Swedish news agency TT.

The art installation, located in the museum's courtyard, featured a fountain filled with red water, designed to look like blood.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1027178.htm

[Flagg]

1. what a sad world we live in.....

[Malva Zebrina]

13. Yes it is.

and think how sad it is when a religion is at the bottom of all the sadness and the hate.

[westman]

140. Right you are.

The fact that this tripe passes for art is sad indeed.

[Laughing Mirror]

2. what does the Ambassador think art is supposed to be?

a cookie-cutter reflection of reality as HE sees it?

[Jim Sagle]

8. I guess it's supposed to be Nazi filth, eh?

:puke:

[durutti]

125. Philistine.

Neither you nor I know the context in which the work was presented.

[westman]

141. I believe it's irrelevent.

It's still a glorification of terrorism.

[Dookus]

3. so sad...

he couldn't lodge a protest? He couldn't write an article about what he found offensive? He couldn't create his own art? He couldn't start a dialog with the artist? No... he trashed it.

I hope Sweden sends him packing.

[Jim Sagle]

9. I reckon he won't miss one picosecond of sleep if he does.

[Judi Lynn]

4. I had to look at his face, to understand what kind of person he is

I won't post the photo. It's the sixth one down the page at this site. He's on the left, his wife, on the far right:

http://www.egy.com/social/00-06-21.6.shtml

From the article:

According to museum director Kristian Berg, the ambassador went berserk when he saw the piece.

"He pulled out the plugs and threw one of the spotlights into the fountain which caused the entire installation to short-circuit and made it totally life-threatening," he told TT.

One of the two artists who created the work, Dror Feiler, was to perform a piece of music but refused to do so as long as the ambassador remained at the scene.

"Ultimately we had to escort the ambassador out of the museum," Mr Berg said, adding that he did not consider the artwork to be a provocation.

"It is rather an invitation to think about why such things happen in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict," he said.

The museum's artistic director, Thomas Nordanstad, said he had given the artists the go-ahead to create the artwork, and had "hoped it would lead to an artistic dialogue".
(snip/...)

Sometimes it seems we have a very long way to go, doesn't it?

[loudnclear]

5. Do you recognize "evil" when you see it?

It comes in all shapes, sizes, and colors.

[Judi Lynn]

6. You can recognize character, or the total absense of character.

If you have paid attention during your life's experiences, you simply recognize honesty and peace in people, and you steer away from the sick ones, whenever possible.

[Jim Sagle]

11. Uh huh.

[ChemEng]

55. Really? Is it the jaw line? Beady eyes? ...

Size of nose?

In the 1800s, some scientist thought they could identify which people were prone to crime based on their skull measurements. Is your system similar to that?

[Jim Sagle]

10. Oh yes.

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. Standing up

I love this ambassador. I wish our foreign service people would stand up to wrongs when they see them.

[JoeNormal]

12. I agree...

They say art is supposed to trip emotions in the viewer. This "piece" tripped his trigger...what's the problem?

[Malva Zebrina]

14. I think the problem is that this person fails to recognize there

are other views than his own views. It says huge things to me--it says that this person insists that other people do not have a place in the world. It says this ambassador is a narrow minded, jealous prick. It says that these to do not want to recognize the rights of others and that art needs to be curtailed if it represent the "other" side. IT says that fascists always seek to control intellectuals, and artists above all others, first.

[donsu]

right on

nt

[mbperrin]

16. Hear! Hear! Maybe he'd like to visit the Smithsonian and see if he

approves of everything there! Hell, loan him an axe and flamethrower - the rest of us aren't entitled to our own opinion, anyway!

[Jim Sagle]

20. In this case it's the artist who's a fascist.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. as was Picasso? Take a look at his Guernica

A statement against fascism and you can find many many more statements against fascism done by artists throughout the centuries if you care to open your mind to the fact that art has a place in this world and all artists have a right to express their tensions or the tensions present in the world

. You remind me of Laura Bush and her cancelling the poet's tea party because they were writing poems against her husband's war.

You might want to try smearing Yo Mama's Last Supper by Renne Cox also.

Remember that one in NYC? Remember Rudy Guilliani's outrage over that one and his calles to censor it? And the protests in front of the Brooklyn Museum by the same persons who protest abortion clinics and the like.

Censoring art is the first attack of the fascists , and this guy hates this artist so much that he lost control. The onus is on him--he comes from the more "civilized" and the more "democratic" state in the Middle East. Right? He should not be acting like a wild eyed imperialistic religious nut at least not in public, like this.

My sympathy is with the artist. I support artists and writers over fascists. Send my name out to the Ambassador. Maybe he will demand I be arrested or have my house bulldozed down to the ground.

[westman]

146. Here's my expert criticism of the two works in your post:

First one: True art.
Second one: Complete crap.

[Jim Sagle]

150. Picasso condemned slaughter. The Palestinian "artist" glorifies it.

Maybe that will clarify.

[Alenne]

152. The artist is Israeli. nt

[not systems]

154. Except he is not Palestinian he was born in Tel Aviv...

and served in the IDF.

So much for clarity.

According to this found in a google search:

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/authors/DrorFeiler.php

Dror Feiler is a musician/composer who was born in Tel Aviv in 1951 but now (2002) lives in Stockholm. He moved to Sweden in 1973 after completing service as a parachutist in the Israeli Defense Force. Feiler was one of the early refuseniks in 1970 when he turned down service in Gaza, then under the command of Ariel Sharon. Currently (2002) he is president of Jews for Israeli Palestinian Peace (JIPF). The group has been organizing Jewish activists in Sweden against the occupation ever since its inception in 1982. JIPF actively works with Palestinian organizations on such projects as joint delegations to officials of the Swedish government.

[JoeNormal]

35. I see your point, to a point

Obviously the ambassador should have used another method to voice his displeasure, and his temper got the better of him. However, simple common sense must be applied to exhibits such as this by those sponsoring the exhibit.

I guess what really bothers me with this particular incident, is the choice made by the artist as to which suicide bombing to use in the exhibit. As I remember, the Maxim was somewhat of an anomaly in Israel. Co-owned for years by Palestinian and Jewish families and a place where all could gather peacefully. I believe it has been opened again and serves as a monument to the peace that is possible.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. No

The problem is the ISRAELI ambassador was invited to an event that glorified suicide bombers. Rather than take this insult lying down, he stood up. Jews don't take that kind of crap any more. The day that Europeans can just count on them to shut up and be "good" Jews are long gone.

I think this ambassador deserves a fan club and I want to be a charter member.

[SemperEadem]

57. Jews don't own the right to trample the rights of others

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Fighting words

There is a concept in common law of fighting words. The concept revolves around the idea that it is possible to indeed goad someone into combat where the proper response is a punch in the nose. Celebrating a suicide bomber and having the audacity to invite the Israeli ambassador to such an appalling display also falls into that category. To note that the ambassador didn't hit anybody shows amazing restraing on his part.

[Bread and Roses]

28. The problem is a term

we are not allowed to use at DU.

PM me if you want to know what it is.

In fact, just posting this will probably get me tombstoned.

But I will NOT be silent.

NEVER AGAIN!

[shanti]

27. you're standing up for this jerk??

n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. The jerk was the "artist"

The other jerks were those who placed this bile in a museum.

[shanti]

114. your opinion only!

not mine.

[westman]

142. A sane perspective, at last!

[loudnclear]

40. Excuse me, what was the "wrong" he was standing up to?

It may take more courage to stand up for treating Palestinians with some human dignity and maybe there would be no suicide bombings.

[SemperEadem]

56. you can stand up to wrongs without destroying property

which does not belong to you when you not in your country of origin.

what he did was childish and immature. someone of his age and experience should have a better command of themselves and better control over their criminal impulses.

Anyone else who goes in a museum and destroys an exhibition gets arrested for destruction of property and disorderly conduct. This ambassador should be sued blind.. I don't give a fig about his religious idiocy---he could have walked his stupid butt out of there when he saw it and organized a quick press conference to state his objection to what he saw, but no---he thought that he was in Israel and as such, he had all the right in the world to act like a punk towards a Palestinian artist and their work.

[Sapphocrat]

91. Amen!

I would like to see the defenders of this vandal waltz into the Louvre, take a knife to a canvas that offends their sensibilities, and see what happens next.

There is nothing anti-Semitic about condemning an act of senseless vandalism; I would as quickly condemn a Christian for destroying a Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit -- or a queer for torching Fred Phelps' house.*

This is simply indefensible.


* No, I am not equating all Christians with Fred Phelps; I know the difference, so no flames on that note, please.

[Cassandra]

149. Other than you...

who mentioned anti-Semitism?
As for the ambassador, I would have preferred if he had found some other way to show his very justifiable displeasure.

[westman]

145. So you denounce the vandalism

at the WTO/G8 meetings as well?

[durutti]

123. Hmm... I wonder...

So did you cheer when anarchists broke Starbucks windows at the WTO meetings in Seattle in 1999?

Didn't think so.

[Cocoa]

15. I'm not sure ambassador is the right job for this guy

he should take one of those career aptitude tests and consider a change.

[Fozzledick]

38. I think he shows great promise...

... as a performance artist!

[Guaranteed]

17. Well, I really don't know what to say about this.

But, that's usually the case when I find myself confronted with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

I usually conclude my thoughts on the subject with something like "A pox on both their houses."

So. A pox on both their houses.

[jpgray]

18. "I don't like this opinion, so I will SMASH it." What a dumbass

People are too selfish with their empathy these days.

[Jim Sagle]

19. Even artists.

[jpgray]

21. When the artist demolishes an IDF memorial, then talk to me

Expressing views in a piece of art is one thing. Physically destroying art you don't agree with is quite another.

[Bread and Roses]

23. Breaking an agreement between

2 governments; leaving a provocative piece of filth sure to engender PTSD in an invited guest from the government that did NOT break the prior agreement. That is what this is about.

Does anyone understand PTSD?

Does anyone know what it's like to live in terror every day?

Does anyone have a friend or relative who has been murdered by terrorists, let alone a great number of them?

[jpgray]

26. I'm protesting the destruction of the art, not advocating its subject (nt)

[Comadreja]

153. Answer to all of your questions

Innocent Palestinians, thanks to Israeli Occupation Forces terrorism.

[Bread and Roses]

22. Unfortunately, this article

gives a take on the story. We must have more critical thinking.

Here is a bit from another article:

"The artwork, entitled "Snow White and the Madness of Truth," consisted of a rectangular basin filled with red water on which floated a boat carrying a portrait of Islamic Jihad suicide bomber Hanadi Jaradat, who killed herself and 21 others in an attack at the Maxim restaurant in Haifa on October 4."

snip

"The Foreign Ministry said that the display was a violation of understandings between Israel and Sweden, and that the Swedish government had promised not to link the conference with the Middle East conflict.

"The exhibit that glorified the actions of a suicide bomber who murdered 22 people is a violation of that understanding, and if it is not removed, Israel will reconsider its participation in the conference," the ministry said."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/383944.html


You see, a prior agreement between the 2 governments was broken. Then, after leaving the offending piece of "art" there, they invited the Israeli ambassador.

Maybe we could all learn from this. How about empathy? How about reserving judgment? Some humanity?

[jpgray]

24. There was still no reason to physcially destroy the piece

To protest an opinion, it shouldn't follow that one needs to destroy that opinion. If there was an agreement that Sweden broke, then they were wrong to have the art there. However, the ambassador is still wrong for destroying it.

[MikeGalos]

76. Personally

I think the Ambassador's actions were a daring and effective performance art piece that captured beautifully the concept that the murder of Jews can no longer be treated as ethically neutral and philsophically tolerable. The particular choice of dousing the lights of public adoration of the thuggish "suicide bombers" in the symbolic pool of Jewish blood was a magnificent conceptual visual.

Bravo to him, and a shrug to those who don't have the sensitivity to recognize artistic brilliance and instead condemn it because they don't like the message.

[Jim Sagle]

151. First-rate review. I give it two thumbs up.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

In fact, it calls for a toast. Foster's, anyone? :toast:

[CookieD]

103. Unfortunately this may be the wrong forum ...

to expect empathy, humanity, and cool-headed reflection for this topic. I enjoy DU but this forum is often reflexively (and sometimes even virulently) anti-Israel.

Good for you for seeing, not just both sides, but the MANY sides of this issue. I wish the Israeli ambassador had reacted with more civility but I can certainly understand why he did not.

[Comadreja]

155. Anti-Occupation is not anti-Israel

End the occupation, close down the settler/garrisons, turn over the process to the U.N., and then see how many suicide bombers still seek martyrdom.

[DuctapeFatwa]

129. Israel is the best judge of the image it wishes to present to the world

The ambassador's actions appear to be consistent with the policies of both sharon and bush regimes.

[Bread and Roses]

25. Back Story:

Israeli Ambassador to Sweden, Zvi Mazel, damaged yesterday an "art exhibit" in Stockholm's museum of National Antiquities. The exhibit sympathized with Hanadi Jaradat, the Palestinian suicide bomber who mass-murdered 21 innocent people in a restaurant in Haifa earlier this year. The exhibition is linked to an international conference on genocide, "Stockholm International Forum: Preventing Genocide - Threats and Responsibilities," to be held January 26-28. The Swedish Foreign Ministry will summon Mazel on Monday to explain his actions.

The victims of the suicide bombing at the Maxim restaurant in Haifa:

- Five members of the Almog family from Haifa: Admiral (res.) Ze'ev Almog, 71, his wife Ruth, 70, their son Moshe, 43, and grandsons Tomer Almog, 9, and Assaf Staier, 11
- Five members of the Zer-Aviv family from Kibbutz Yagur: Bruria, 59; her son Bezalel, 30, and his wife Keren, 29, with their children Liran, 4, and Noya, 1
- Zvi Bahat, 35, of Haifa
- Mark Biano, 29, of Haifa, and his wife Naomi, 25
- Hana Francis, 39, of Fassouta, chief waiter
- Mutanus Karkabi, 31, of Haifa, the security guard
- Sharbal Matar, 23, of Fassouta, waiter
- Osama Najar, 28, of Haifa, cook
- Nir Regev, 25, of Nahariya
- Irena Sofrin, 38, of Kiryat Bialik
- Lydia Zilberstein, 56, of Haifa died of her wounds on Oct 9
- George Matar, 59, of Haifa died of his wounds on Oct 15

[Cocoa]

29. and how does smashing the art help?

imo, smashing the art is a pretty good symbol of the thinking that leads to conflict like that.

[Bread and Roses]

31. Yes. Absolutely.

It's very easy to think that way when it is theoretical.

For many many people it is their reality.

In earlier posts on this thread, I mentioned PTSD and alluded to baiting. I also pled for humanity and empathy.

Not having the compassion one needs to understand the Ambassador's reaction reminds me of a republican mindset.

[Cocoa]

32. turniing the aggressor into the victim

THAT is reminiscent of a republican mindset for me.

One thing for sure, that ambassador committed an ACTUAL act of violence, and the artist did NOT.

[Bread and Roses]

33. uh huh

heaven help us

[Cocoa]

39. what does that mean?

I don't think your answer means anything, unless you can explain it.

Elaborating on my point... this conflict you care about so deeply, what is it, like all conflicts, but acts of violence committed by both sides?

Of all the actors who have committed acts of violence in the Middle East conflict, that piece of art is not one of them. The ambassador is.

Maybe it would be better if the ambassador channeled his rage into a piece of art himself. Or maybe, since he is an ambassador, he should express himself in a more formal way. Isn't that the whole point of diplomacy?

Heaven help us, indeed.

[monobrau]

42. Not very diplomatic, eh?

-nt

[Malikshah]

81. Does that mean

We can list all who were killed by Begin, Ben-Gurion and Sharon.

This "back story" is what is wrong with the discussion of this issue.

Only looking at the deaths of one side as important.

All humans have a right to life.

[pschoeb]

34. Dror Feiler, the one artist named, is Jewish and a former Israeli

So I'm not sure why this is considered Palestinian art. Dror was born in Tel Aviv and served in the IDF as a parrachutist. Maybe the Ambassador jumped to conclusions on what the piece was about?

Patrick Schoeb

[RememberTheCoup]

46. I agree, pschoeb

I don't understand why the ambassador automatically interpreted this as pro-Palestine or anti-Israel. And PTSD is no excuse for an ambassador. It's his job to rise above that sort of thing. If he can't stand the heat, he should stay out of the kitchen.

[thebigidea]

41. weird to see DUers cheer the destruction of art

sure, mock it... deride it, write boring critique, babble about the NEA, but uh - take up the tactics of RWers, Nazis, crusaders against "degenerate art"? Or praise such tactics?

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Not "art"

There are limits to anything -- even in a free society. We can't holler "fire" in a crowded theater and we can't incite to riot. To create this hunk of garbage and call it art is beyond any definition I've ever seen.

[dai]

44. Good idea, Muddle

Please, provide us a list of all works which you do not consider "art" - so that decent people like you and me (not the rest of these awful anti-freedom people) can begin destroying them.

Next, please draw up a list of writings which you feel are "not literature", so we can have a good 1930s style book burning.

Not everyone "gets it", but you and I do! Some people, like this "artist", just don't deserve a voice...

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Art

Your sense of empathy is not turned on today. Imagine for a second you are the Israeli ambassador invited to something as mundane as an art opening and you instead find something as offensive as this thing that celebrates suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers are the scum of the earth. If the museum wants to celebrate such vile beings, then they shouldn't invite the ISRAELI ambassador.

I hail his action.

[not systems]

49. Images created by "the scum of the earth" must be destroyed?

You fail to see that as ironic, I am sure.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. It wasn't an image CREATED by the scum of the earth

It glorified their actions. A slight difference.

I refuse to sit by and allow the alleged cognoscenti glorify suicide bombers and the murder of Jews.

[not systems]

75. Have you seen it?

If so post a link.

It is not at all clear what range of meaning this art
may contain.

Perhaps the blood represented the pervasive blood shed
on both sides and the picture meant that suicide bombing
take place in an atmosphere of violence.

Have you seen it how can you judge.

Do you give this man the license to destroy because
of who he is or some other reason?

Why do you advocate anarchy?

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. The "artwork"

I have seen it described. That is enough. I have seen his reaction. That is also enough.

I know this, if an American gallery ran such offensive material about the black community, they would be swarmed with protest. If a prominent African-American leader reacted in this way, we would hail him.

Ah Europe, you just have to understand their history to understand life today.

[NashVegas]

135. "murdered 19 innocent civilians" - This Is Glorification?

"She secretly crossed into Israel, charged into a Haifa restaurant, shot a security guard, blew herself up and murdered 19 innocent civilians"

How, exactly, is that glorifying the actions of a terrorist?

Instead of depending on descriptions, perhaps you should go see it for yourself. Reading over the text, what I get from it is the artists' commentary on the senseless tragedy. How can anyone deny that it was a tragedy both for the victims, and for bomber who lost her humanity?

If the woman was presented as a heroine, as Haaretz says, it was of the Emma Bovary variety.

[Muddleoftheroad]

137. Tragedy?

Sorry, the bomber CHOSE to kill innocent people. She was a murdering psychopath. I only feel sorry that she blew up others in her hate-driven insanity.

Thanks to others here, I have indeed seem the work. It's foul. So was the terrorist it seeks to glorify.

[NashVegas]

139. I'll Ask Again

As I think you replied before my full revision

"She secretly crossed into Israel, charged into a Haifa restaurant, shot a security guard, blew herself up and murdered 19 innocent civilians"

How, exactly, is that and the rest of the exhibit glorifying the actions of a terrorist?

[Muddleoftheroad]

143. "Snow White And The Madness Of Truth"

A picture of a suicide bomber?

Sure, rationalize it any way you want. You'll feel much better about yourself that way.

[NashVegas]

147. Lot More Going on There Than a Picture

Accompanying text which descibes the incident as a murder of innocent civilians.

How one concludes that's glorification is beyond me.

http://www.makingdifferences.com/site/calendar.php?id=20

[not systems]

148. He knows what it meant with out...

seeing it let alone reading the text.

Nothing needs to be known about this case except that
the man who destroyed the exhibit was the right nationality.

That trumps freedom of expression or even the need to
properly interpret the symbols presented.

The ones who know, know, everyone else is an apologist for terrorists.

That is what I get from this discussion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

158. I have seen it

I have read the text. I love the web. I hate anti-Semitism and racial bigotry.

[dai]

50. Someone please make me...

...an ISRAELI ambassador, so I can censor everything I don't like as well.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Not censorship

He responded as a human being would. What a shock. Israel is beset by these monsters who hide even as recent mothers, begging for help. He reacted as someone who has seen women and children blown to bits by these bastards.

[shanti]

115. and the palestinians haven't seen this as well?

fair is fair!

[RememberTheCoup]

52. Wrong.

His actions hurt both Sweden and Israel. Do you even understand what an ambassador is? He is supposed to represent Israel. And he is definitely not supposed to vandalize the art of his host country. And why do you insist that the artwork celebrates suicide bombers? That is not at all clear to me. And, in addition, his actions caused a very dangerous situation with electrified water. What if someone had been hurt?

[dai]

53. If someone was hurt...

...it would be justifiable "collateral damage".

You can't destroy offensive art without breaking a few eggs.

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. Representing Israel

As almost anyone in I/P can tell you, I am a big defender of Israel. I am PROUD to say that he represented Israel quite well. Ambassadors are supposed to play nice, but some things are not worth tolerating. He took a stand. Mabye if some in Europe had taken a similar stand in the 1930s there would be MILLIONS more Jews today.

[thebigidea]

67. hmmm, I wonder which country destroyed art in the 1930s...

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Six million lives later

Plus a few thousand more thanks to Palestinian terrorists, irony sort of goes out the window.

As for the artist, I don't care if the nationality was Martian, it was still offensive.

[dai]

82. Irony is not "out the window"

It's just that you can't seem to understand it.

Six million Jews (and millions of other apparently lesser people you don't seem to bother mentioning) were killed by a government that reacted to art in the same manner as this ambassador.

That's ironic!

This ambassador was offended by the exhibit, ostensibly because of his background as an Israeli. However, the exhibit was created by someone with the same background.

That's ironic!

Everyone else here gets it, so irony is not out the window nor will it ever be.

For some reason, conservatives dislike irony: I think it was Cheney who declared "irony is dead" right after 9-11. My theory is that in order for people to notice ironic, contradictory, or counter-intuitive statements, they have to be thoughtful and analytical. Conservatives would prefer an unthinking population: "suicide bomber bad, HULK smash suicide bomber picture!"

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. I love irony

I understand it. You just don't seem to grasp how some things can go past the offensive into the realm of the intolerable. To you, this is fucking academic exercise. To the ambassador, he looked at that art and saw Europe's embrace of 2,000 years of anti-Semitism that culminated in the Holocaust. He saw the Arab world's continual and perpetual slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Jews.

Not exactly something most would tolerate. Thankfully, he had the guts to do something.

I am neither conservative nor anti-art. I spend a great deal of free time in galleries and reading about art. It is an aspect of life that I value highly.

But this is not an artistic debate, it's about the abuse of one people for 2,000 years. It's about how Europe continues to revel in such action and rub Israel's face right in it.

You want irony?

Irony is Europeans protesting actions Jews take now when the Europeans didn't have the nerve to say something when Nazis were going after Jewish artists in the 1930s.

Some things don't change, Europe seems one of them.

[thebigidea]

61. is the man a deranged, purple-assed baboon?

you're telling me he HAD to lash out? He couldn't grimace, walk out, complain loudly, write a fuckin' letter to an editor?

you wouldn't be so compassionate if it was some ISM-type getting "offended" at an exhibition of Israeli art and damaging the display.

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. A letter?

Sure, that's how you respond to glorifying the murderers who blow children to bits. Yeah, that's a strong statement...

[thebigidea]

68. remind me never to invite you to a gallery show

the only possible response is destruction?

Do you go into a blind rage when you get cut off in traffic?

Do you start slapping people when your home fries are cold?

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. You compare the mundane with the ridiculous

The examples you cite involve everyday issues and you have the audacity to compare them with the celbration of murder. You talk about art, I talk about compassion for the man who was invited to this event and then found this pile of garbage there.

As for gallery shoes, I go to many. If I went to one CELEBRATING the lynching of African-Americans, then I might make the news as well.

[thebigidea]

74. even if the artist were black? you'd wreck his art even if you missed

his point?

you should go harass art students, they like shock tactics and could use a lesson.

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. I don't know how I would react

Maybe it depend on how many times I had heard "nigger," that week or whether I felt harassed for my race recently. It happens more than most want to admit. As I imagine similar actions happen to Jews everywhere as well.

Life as a minority is like that. You go through the day-to-day indignities and sometimes you snap when you see something so over-the-top that you just can't stand it.

And the lynchings are, mostly, long ago. The suicide bombers happen with great frequency -- NOW. Maybe the ambassador lost someone he knew quite well or maybe he just tired of seeing Israeli children blown into tiny bits and watching the ambulance personnel picking up each little bit to take home to the devastated families.

If I saw it in the mood I am this second, I know how I would react.

[not systems]

48. Books into the fire now.

They contain ideas that are outside the "limits" of a "free society".

We can not incite a riot unless it is a one man riot on a
art work that we don't like, in that case burn baby burn.

Am I understanding your position correctly?

You are the final judge of what is "art" and what is "garbage"?

By what right of god or man?

[dai]

51. When I saw...

...the picture of MLK next to comments like: "I hail the violent destruction of so-called 'art'" I thought my head would explode.

[not systems]

54. In this particular case...

you will never fail to be surprised by this juxtaposition.

[SemperEadem]

63. that's cause he's pimping MLK's picture

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. Dr. King

Would have just loved the Palestinian terror practice sending new mothers strapped with explosives into a group of people to kill and maim. Yeah, that's believable.

How would Dr. King have responded if it had been "art" of a lynching of an African American? Art celebrating the KKK? Art celebrating the Nazis? Art celebrating the suicide bombers is the same.

Even Christ threw the money changers from the temple. Sometimes passive resistance needs to get active.

[thebigidea]

70. King was right there on the front lines: in the art galleries

he was tearing down pictures left and right. He couldn't stand dadists, surrealists, and man o man did he especially hate those damn Italian futurists.

King also once killed a man, just for snoring too loud.

He would have loved and embraced your aggressive art criticism - BURN DOWN THE GALLERIES! KILL THE ARTISTS! SLAUGHTER THE THOUGHTCRIMINALS! God Bless America and Little Israel too.

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. You must be having fun

Making light of glorifying of hate must be all the rage in the art community. How dare anyone stand up and say, "NO!" in a voice so loud and strong that the world had to take notice.

I admire his courage. Sometimes, we just have to say we will not stand in the back of the bus or be pushed from lunchcounters or see people mocking our race so much that they celebrate our destruction and mutilation and expect us to tolerate it.

[RememberTheCoup]

83. The ambassador did not say "no".

He destroyed an artist's work because he personally didn't like it.

And, FYI, MLK preached passive resistance, not wanton destruction.

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. And I am not Dr. King

I don't believe passive resistance always works. After 400 years in this nation, we are due not to be entirely passive.

After 2,000 years of passive resistance, it is good to see Jews who stand up as well.

[dai]

87. Why can't the artist...

...say "NO! You cannot destroy my art" in a voice so loud...etc.

Why can some people stand up for themselves and some people can't?

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. Could have

And perhaps that would have developed into a fight as well. See my post about fighting words above.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

159. Dr. King

We can debate all day about how Dr. King would have reacted. I know how he would have felt about the glorification of suicide bombers who kill 19 innocent people. That much, at least, is obvious.

So, what is a neolib? Your definition I mean.

[thebigidea]

59. let me know when they appoint you Guy Who Defines All Art for EVERYBODY

[Comadreja]

157. What is more vile?

The crazed bomber or the Israeli-imposed toxic swamp of horror he/she sprang from? The self-stated purpose of the Israeli oppression is to cause the Palestinians to become "drugged cockroaches scuttling around in a bottle."

[Democat]

160. You sound like George W. Bush

I get the feeling, the more I read your posts, that you and I are not on the same team.

[RememberTheCoup]

45. Weird is not the word.

But just remember that anyone can post here as long as they don't blatantly disregard the rules. I wouldn't necessarily assume that everyone who posts on DU is a sincere progressive. That includes longtime posters. And I am speaking not just of this thread but of DU in general.

[papau]

112. below: "Snow White and the Madness of Truth" on wet "blood"going to heaven

[wellst0nev0ter]

64. Right Or Wrong

I'm sure this action would make him VERY popular in Israel.

[RememberTheCoup]

80. I'd hate to think that about all Israelis (nt)

[savistocate]

98. IF the "diplomat" also

could be enraged at Shron& militaristhard right Likkud "smiling"
at killing fields of Palestinian innocents (oh to some ..no such thing) missiles launched into homes, tanks flattening populated homes and so monstrous much more..if he were of Israel peace seeking faction one might mitigate somewhat response to the seeming "we only, suffer" arrogance.

[savistocate]

108. IF the 'diplomat' were

capable of realizing his Shron& militarist hard right Likuud are seen by the world "smiling" at killing fields of Palestinians, tanks leveling populated homes , destroying& taking possession of homes,
and monstrous more..were of Israel's peace seeking faction
such a uncontrolled arrogant act of "we only, suffer" --but not so
clearly. One's response then might be other than complete condemnation.

[Bread and Roses]

84. You might want to change

your DU nickname and avatar:

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk021101/us16.shtml

[Buns_of_Fire]

85. Not having seen the artwork, either before or after,

I'm obviously not in a position to interpret what the artist may or may not have been trying to say. And even if I did see it, it would be only my interpretation. Is it within the realm of possibility that the artist was just decrying the violence, without attaching a viewpoint favoring either side?

Either way, methinks Ambassador Mazel should serously consider another line of work.

[Bread and Roses]

89. Easy way out:

It was a large thick red substance looking exactly like blood with the smiling face of the terrorist on the sail of a sailboat; ie sailing along the river of blood she had left in her wake. (and, yes, I just saw it on the news)

It appears you didn't read the articles where it was described in detail.

The 2 governments agreed the so-called art was inflammatory and that there was to be none of this Nazi-style art in the collection.

Then, they invited the Ambassador who ordinarily lives among this death and destruction by suicide bombers every day. The Swedes made the agreement, broke the agreement and then they set the Ambassador up.

For a perfect encapsulation, methinks you would be well advised to read the post made by Mike Galos (above).

Thank you very much.

[Buns_of_Fire]

105. Actually, I DID read the articles

And still, without seeing the work (or whatever's left of it), I make no judgment one way or the other as to whether or not it was appropriate. If the Ambassador was "set up" then, by all means, pursue the matter aggressively -- thru diplomatic channels.

But I'm not going to be drawn into any argument best left in the I/P forum. The Ambassador snapped. End of story. And as such, this is not the person you want in a diplomatic position.

He acted like an asshole. Can't it just be left at that?

[dai]

94. You can see it here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3406745.stm

2 quotes from the artist:

"I'm absolutely opposed to suicide bombers,"

"You can have your own view of what this piece of art is all about, but it is never, never allowed to use violence and it is never allowed to try to silence the artist,"

[Bread and Roses]

99. cute

in 3-D, the slight ripples of red look like thick globules of waving blood.

nice try

[Zhade]

88. I wrote to this asshole once.

A Swede who was being held by the Israeli police was in danger of being deported for nonviolent ISM activities. I wrote to this ambassador to ask him to aid the Swede.

Not only did he NOT help, he libeled the ISM by calling it "anti-Semitic" (when a large percentage of the ISM are Jewish) and even went as far as to ridicule my email name (I use A. Nonymous as my 'from' portion)! I posted about it in GD (I think) when it happened.

Yeah, this guy's a real winner. :eyes:

[Bread and Roses]

92. Surely you are familiar

with the term "uncle Tom"? The self-hating Jews who wish to finish what Hitler started by working for the destruction of Israel through ISM are tantamount to that term.

Yeah, this guy is a real winner!

[jpgray]

90. Supporters of Israel advocate violent protest. There's a headline for you

I can't understand why anybody would support protesting a piece of art by destroying it.

[Bread and Roses]

96. I believe we were providing

reasons to understand why someone with PTSD from living with this sort of murderous suicide bombing crap every day might have a visceral reaction to Nazi art...you know, like you have reasons to justify why the suicide bombers indiscriminately murder civilians because they happen to be one buses or having a cup of coffee AS LONG AS THEY ARE JEWS.

[jpgray]

101. You are speaking to yourself--I never justified suicide bombing

I understand his motivation just fine. He should have acted on that motivation in a way that doesn't go against everything his country stands for. Protesting something by destroying it is the suicide bombers' ideal, I thought Israel was supposed to be opposed to such a thing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

97. Or this headline

Supporters of Israel Tire of Europe's Continuing Anti-Semitism.

Or this:

Supporters of Israel Vow to Fight Celebrations of Dead Jews.

[Bread and Roses]

102. And you have just done 2 things with that post:

1. named the subtext of this thread

and

2. named the fact that it isn't just in I/P where anti-Semitism coagulates


:scared: :scared: :scared: :cry: :cry: :argh:

[jpgray]

104. This has nothing to do with Israeli or Palestinian

It is the destruction of a controversial piece of artwork simply because it is controversial. Violent suppression of ideas is wrong in any country, when done by any person of any race and any religion.

[hellhathnofury]

106. Does that mean I can glorify the murder of MLK in downtown Atlanta?

It's glorifying the murder of innocent people and that in my book goes over the line of ideas into the realm of actions.

[Muddleoftheroad]

109. You can't do that in Atlanta

But you apparently can glorify just about anything anti-Semitic in Europe.

[hellhathnofury]

110. Exactly, because in their minds two wrongs make a right.

I'm not happy with all of the Israeli actions but I don't use it as an exuse to justify deifying hate.

Murder should not be memorialized.

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. Huh?

Sure, it has nothing to do with the subject matter. Funny, we're always supposed to ignore racism and overlook anti-Semitism.

Never again.

[jpgray]

111. Okay. Show me which remarks of mine are anti-Semitic

I'll be waiting.

[jpgray]

117. The silence is deafening. (nt)

[Muddleoftheroad]

118. Not you

The damn display.

[jpgray]

121. If it was, he STILL should not have destroyed it

According to one artist, who is apparently Israeli, it is not meant to glorify suicide bombing, but rather was meant as a spirit of openness and conciliation.

But let's assume that it was a bigoted, anti-Semitic piece of work that glorified murder. He still should NOT have destroyed. The act of destroying it undermines the message he was trying to put across by protesting it, much in the way death and suffering inflicted by suicide bombers undermines THEIR message.

[Muddleoftheroad]

126. The rationalizaton

I have seen the artwork. I have read the title. I don't believe the rationalization and neither should you.

I agree it is safe to, "assume that it was a bigoted, anti-Semitic piece of work that glorified murder."

No destroying it does not undermine the message. What you assume is that, when faced with something that despicable, that you can sit down, compose your thoughts and voice a challenge that will gain any notice at all.

In Europe, with century piled upon century of anti-Semitism, maybe the best way has become the direct way.

[jpgray]

131. I only assume that for the sake of argument

I don't pretend to know what the artists had in mind.

I don't deny that it would be difficult for the ambassador if he felt the art was glorifying suicide bombers. I have no quarrel with combating anti-Semitism. Destroying artwork to protest it just isn't something I will condone. Let's leave it at that. I have no horse in the I/P race.

[Terwilliger]

122. The "damn display" better be a warning

apparently it goes unheeded

[Muddleoftheroad]

127. ?

Sorry, don't get your point.

[Terwilliger]

134. unheeded

[Comadreja]

161. Palestinians are Semites

So, even if you think Europeans favor the Palestinians, they are not as anti-Semitic as the murderous Likudniks.

[hellhathnofury]

100. My feeling is that though his actions weren't diplomatic...

they were completely appropriate.

No one should be glorifying the murder of innocents on either side. This artwork praises the murder of innocent men, women and children by honoring their misguided murderer. Shame on the artist, shame on Sweden.

edit for image:

[mbperrin]

113. Okay, let's try it again: DAI posted the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3406745.stm

and here's another snip:
Ambassador Zvi Mazel said the work, which has a boat floating in a pool of red liquid, was "a call for genocide".

But its Israeli-born creator rejected the charge, saying the work had a message of openness and conciliation.

Hello! Openness and conciliation!! And please, nobody with the PTSD crap again - this is a difficult enough diagnosis by certified professionals like my wife......

Please don't come to my house - you may not like it when I play old Eagles music, and I like my house!

[hellhathnofury]

116. That's pretty deceptive for a work entitled...

"Snow White And The Madness Of Truth"

-She's not snow white and that's whats offensive, she murdered innocent men, women and children.

If it's not offensive, why did he react that way? This man is a trained diplomat, he doesn't lose his temper easy, maybe it's not so concilatory?

[mbperrin]

119. Trained where? As what? Evidence of his even temper?

If the ARTIST doesn't know, who does?

And by all means, let's not have art that offends. A bunch of fuckers standing around in 16th century hats and feathers against a dark background, now that's art!

[Malva Zebrina]

138. or paintings of lions and tigers on velvet.

all those who are resistant to art would have it that we go back to the dark ages and Byzantine art-- I would half expect Ashcroft to condone this action on the part of the Ambassador. It seems to me that both are similar in some ways in their reactions to art.

Destroying the artist's work is really the most despicable act here.

The Taliban were villified for destroying the Bhudda statues, remember.

Bush allowed the museum in Iraq containing artifacts and works of art to be destroyed and also to be plundered. Those works of art were thousands and thousands of years old. They were the works of a people who began civilisation in the fertile crescent.

What is it with right wing tyrants and destroying works of art anyhow?

[Lars39]

124. That's just it, she looked like a Snow White on the outside,

yet she did something so horrible; adding to the carnage, so that by now there is enough blood to float boats. Or at least that's how I interpreted the display. I don't believe it was glorifying her. One thing that came to mind was descriptions of Civil War battles: there were so many killed that the pond/creek/river turned red.

[dai]

130. lol, I thought you were someone else...

...with the same avatar at first.

I like your interpretation. I saw it slightly differently; the conflict which has spilled so much blood made the girl into what she became.

100+ posts on this thread and you're the first person who intelligently addressed what the exhibit meant, congratulations are in order.

[Fovea]

128. Behold, the power of art

They don't really teach it anymore in America, but it is still powerful.
An Ambassador is empowered to represent the interests of his or her people. When confronted with an idea they find offensive, the professional response it to counter it with a less offensive response.

They call it diplomacy. I read about it in a book somewhere.

[Character Assassin]

132. Yawn. Total non-issue involving people of zero importance.

Golly, an Israeli didn't like a Palestinian work of art?

Why, this might mean that a Palestinian wouldn't like an Israeli one, too.

Will wonders never cease?

[not systems]

133. It is not at all clear that this art meant what he thought it meant.

People jumping to the conclusion that this some how glorifies the
bomber should look at post #112.

This ambassador is out of line as are his defenders.

A photo floating on sea of blood is not my idea of "glorification".

[DuctapeFatwa]

136. Any country who has diplomatic relations with Israel of US does so

with the knowledge that the regimes of both these rogue "states" espouse a different standard of acceptable behavior than that generally accepted by the civilized world.

Sweden exhibited art which displeased the Israeli ambassador.

Given the aforementioned differences in standards of behavior, blaming the ambassador makes about as much sense as blaming a rabid monkey for biting a nearby bishop.

If Sweden wishes to continue its relationship with Israel, it will have to take steps to ensure that any art that displeases the ambassador is forbidden.

[TrueStory]

144. For who is working this Zvi Mazel anyway?

I mean without Zvi Mazel's performance act the Wold hardly could know about the existence of this artwork, and now everybody will have a look at it:

Snow White and The Madness of Truth



Once upon a time in the middle of winter
For the June 12 deaths of her brother, and her cousin
and three drops of blood fell
She was also a woman
as white as snow, as red as blood, and her hair was as black as ebony
Seemingly innocent with universal non-violent character, less suspicious of intentions
and the red looked beautiful upon the white
The murderer will yet pay the price and we will not be the only ones who are crying
like a weed in her heart until she had no peace day and night
Hanadi Jaradat was a 29-year-old lawyer
I will run away into the wild forest, and never come home again
Before the engagement took place, he was killed in an encounter with the Israeli security forces
and she ran over sharp stones and through thorns
She said: Your blood will not have been shed in vain
and was about to pierce Snow White's innocent heart
She was hospitalized, prostrate with grief, after witnessing the shootings
The wild beasts will soon have devoured you
After his death, she became the breadwinner and she devoted herself solely to that goal
”Yes”, said Snow White, "with all my heart”
Weeping bitterly, she added: "If our nation cannot realize its dream and the goals of the victims, and live in freedom and dignity, then let the whole world be erased"
Run away, then, you poor child
She secretly crossed into Israel, charged into a Haifa restaurant, shot a security guard, blew herself up and murdered 19 innocent civilians
as white as snow, as red as blood, and her hair was as black as ebony
And many people are indeed crying: the Zer Aviv family, the Almog family, and all the relatives and friends of the dead and the wounded
and the red looked beautiful upon the white

[Jim Sagle]

156. Zvi Mazel RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just one man, doin' the best he can...to make the world a better place.

[Moderator]

162. No longer LBN... locking

Please feel free to continue this dicussion within your choice of between the following Israeli/Palestinian Issues Forum threads:

Sweden summons envoy to explain damage to artwork

Israel's Sweden ambassador wrecks Palestinian art

Thanks!

DU Moderator