Chavez Won't Halt U.S. Oil Sales

[davidinalameda]

Source: AP

President Hugo Chavez sent a soothing message to American motorists on Sunday, saying Venezuela is not preparing to cut off oil shipments to the United States.

The socialist leader rattled oil markets last Sunday when he threatened to halt shipments to the United States in retaliation for Exxon Mobil's success in persuading U.S. and European courts to freeze Venezuelan assets.

"We don't have plans to stop sending oil to the United States," Chavez said Sunday during a visit to heavy-oil projects in Venezuela's petroleum-rich Orinoco River basin that were nationalized last year.

But he added that Venezuela could cut off supplies to the United States if Washington "attacks Venezuela or tries to harm us."

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/17/AR2008021701960.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[MercutioATC]

1. And we care because....?

Chavez is a two-bit dictator. His only sympathetic point is that he sees the current American administration for what it is.

Supporting Chavez is no more constructive than our government supporting the Afghani "Freedom Fighters" (Bin Laden), and now the opium-poppy-growing warlords who oppose the Taliban but are every bit as dangerous.

Say it with me, people....the enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend.

[Mik T]

7. CHavez is not a dictator

You are just repeating what you have heard. There are absolutly no facts to back it up. Chavez was elected by 60% of the population in an election that was certified fair by the UN and the Carter Center. Thats a heluva lot more then you can say for Bush.

I've BEEN to Venezuela. All over Caracas including 2 barrios, 6 months pregnant, with no escort. I didn't see an abnormal amount of police or soldiers, and when I attended a demonstration there It was far less policed and controlled then the antiwar ones here in the US. Big Brother is not watching you in Venezuela. In fact, its hard to find a cop when you want one.

Suck it up and admit it, you are a victim of some very skilled producers of propaganda in the mass media and you have absolutly no first hand experience of the place at all.

[Pavulon]

10. I have been too

any you are very umm brave to move around barrios and ranchos unescorted. It is 3rd world and can be very dangerous for residents and "tourists".

So can Miami, but still.

I rely on co workers who are residents of a country to tell me where I should go and not go.

There are places in Caracas that are not safe.

Chavez lost his presidente for life bid. So we will see what his next step is.

[Mik T]

13. I'm not brave, I was poor.

Well sure there were places I wouldn't go alone at night. Like any city.

-It was daylight and there were people everywhere. Who would want anything from a badly dressed dark haired pregnant woman carrying little money? I fit right in. It's only rich people who have their movement restricted and have to live in fear even in the daytime.

I grew up in NYC in the 80's. That was just about the same amount of dangerous. In fact, thats what Caracas kind of reminded me of.

Caracas is not third world either- No more then parts of brooklyn or the Bronx. I believe the technical term for places like Caracas is second world. Poor but not desperate. You could tell because even the stray dogs were well fed looking. I was there as a delagate for the world Social Forum. I had a friend who was a fullbright professor and I stayed at her house at night part of the time and with my delagation for the rest of the time. They stayed in police barracks and a youth center. The police barracks were pretty funny actually, these 2 goofy dogs followed the cadets everywhere and their families hung out on the balconies and watched them train. It was so not inspiring of fear. You could just tell their was nothing dictatorial about the place the people there were always yelling and wild and ebullient. More American then we are actually. There was definitly not the rigid adherence to law and order that was characteristic of a dictatorship. And noone was afraid to tell you what they thought- about anything. Venezuelans are pretty outgoing people. They certianly don't live in fear, that's for sure.

Now I've been to El Salvador and that WAS the third world. Their dogs were starving. I would never wander around alone in a city there. There were guys with sawed off shotguns all over the place an you could hear gunshots all the time. San Salvador was scary as hell. I spent the first night I was there Hiding under a blanket in the apartment I was at jumping out of my skin every time I heard a shot. My advice would be- don't go to Venezuela if you have lots of money cause you might be robbed at night. Other then that you are perfectly safe in the daytime. Don't go to El Salvador at all though unless you have an itinarary and you are travelling in a group. The cities aren't safe for anyone. The air is green. It sucks. I feel really sorry for those people.

Bottom line- Venezuela is OK and Chavez is a good guy who got a bad rep from the Bush administration.

[tidy_bowl]

57. If he ever was stupid enough...

....to cut of oil to the US and lose all that revenue we would really see his dictatorial persona then now wouldn't we? Wouldn't be able to hide it with all the goodies he hands out that all that money buys.

[bitchkitty]

9. blah blah blah dictator blah blah

yada yada yada tyrant blah blah dictator blah blah blah stole land blah blah suppresses media blah blah blah blah.

There, I said it all for you. Happy now?

[JustDavid]

23. so how would you feel

if an American president (a repug) supressed any media that spoke out against him?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. Like this?

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/05/bush-white-house-has-tried-to-silence-chris-matthews/

[davidinalameda]

52. that said TRIED to silence

that's not not renewing NBC's broadcast license

big difference

[Mik T]

28. Where have you been for the last 8 years?

Don't you remember what the lead up to the Iraq War was like? No Anti-war coverage at all.

If you think we have a free media in this country-then watch a white house briefing.

[endarkenment]

31. Venezuela has a vibrant and free press and broadcast media

Opposition views are quite prevalent. You are probably confused about the one broadcast outlet that lost its license. That outlet actively participated in the CIA sponsored failed coup against the elected president of the country. In the USA these folks wouldn't have just lost their license, they would be in gitmo facing a military tribunal and a death sentence.

[bitchkitty]

44. Are you asleep or just stupid?

I wish they would shut down our faux media and replace it. Even our best journalists have their balls in a vise by our corporate media. We do not have a reliable source of information in this country that is aired to any large segment of the population. People who are too lazy or stupid for critical thought embrace the talking points, eat that crap with a spoon and pronounce it tasty. Then they come over here to a progressive board and repeat those stupid-ass talking points like they're the word of God.

[High Plains]

39. Cut the bullshit! Got anything besides name-calling?

Comparing Chavez to the Taliban is ridiculous.

Some of us would like to see a little more socialism in the world. We'll leave the capitalism-worship to the Republicans.

[Pavulon]

2. in other news dopeman not cutting off his customers..

this guy is still in the news? Red shirt wearing guy finally figured out he was full of shit.

[seriousstan]

3. Somebody explained the nature of commodities to the little tinhorn dictator?

That's cute.

[skepticscott]

4. No kidding

Unless you're just going to sit on that oil or use it to fill swimming pools, Hugo, you'll have to sell what you didn't sell to us to someone else, and we'll just turn around and buy what they didn't buy from whoever they would have originally bought it from. So save your threats.

[seriousstan]

11. Funny, the usual Hugo fluffers haven't been vocal about his flip-flop.

[endarkenment]

32. How is he a dictator?

Please provide a clear explanation for your use of that term.

[fascisthunter]

37. How Is He a Dictator Again?

There should be a site for neo-cons out there somewhere.

[The Croquist]

48. This is good news to both countries

Using insults just diminishes you not Chavez. He was elected by the citizens of Venezuela. If he stays past his term then he is a dictator.

[Peace Patriot]

5. Some DUers apparently agree with Donald Rumsfeld and Exxon-Mobile...

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

And I'm sure they, and Rumsfeld and his oil corp compadres, mean well toward the poor of Venezuela. Cuz look at all those schools and medical centers they're building and staffing in poor areas never before served by government. And look how they foster maximum citizen participation in that country, and empowerment of the poor, by encouraging transparent elections and not trying to topple democratically elected leaders.

It warms my soul.

:rofl:

[Pavulon]

6. Mr oil should be $100 a BBL

yeah I sympathize with him.

[MADem]

8. He can't afford to--he needs the money. Other countries don't want his heavy, sour oil.

They don't want to jump through the hoops to refine it, and Cuba gets the stuff at cost, so there's no percentage in giving more to them. We're his best customer because we have the capability to get the stuff to market.

Basically, if he cut us off, Old Jawbone George would call his pals in thobes and they actually would "open the spigots."

Mister Empty Threats and Bluster, at it again...he might hate us, but WE have the refineries that efficiently process his heavy and sour oil. Other nations don't. He's pretty much stuck with us if he wants to get his product to market!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/5543587.html

A look at the reality of today's oil markets showed the threat to be largely empty. If Chavez didn't sell Venezuela's heavy, sour crude oil to U.S. refineries specially equipped to process it, he would have to sell it to oil traders, who in turn would sell it to U.S. refineries. Should Chavez withhold his country's oil from the market altogether, he would not be able to finance the social services upon which his domestic approval rests.

Chavez subsequently said he would end the sale of crude and other products to Exxon Mobil. The world's largest multinational oil company is seeking to recover billions of dollars invested in Venezuelan oil projects that Chavez nationalized without adequate compensation. His lack of seriousness was made apparent when a Venezuelan official stated that his nation would live up to all contractual commitments, including shipments of crude to a Louisiana refinery jointly owned by Venezuela's national oil company and Exxon Mobil.

[Mik T]

15. That looks like it was phrased like the usual propaganda

Here's something that might be closer to the truth-

PDVSA retaliated by suspending commercial relations with ExxonMobil earlier this week, but Ramírez says the state oil company "understand's there are a series of commercial agreements that have been signed ... and we will respect them." He announced that PDVSA will continue exporting around 79,000 barrels per day to the Louisiana-based Chalmette refinery, which it co-owns with Exxon, but will cut all other exports to Exxon, which hovered between 50,000-90,000 barrels per day in 2007 according to Reuters and Bloomberg News.

[MADem]

17. The bottom line is this. Either he sells to us, or he sells to a trader who sells to us.

And that trader is going to demand a rakeoff for his trouble.

No one else has the large scale refining capacity to handle his goods. Even refineries he has interest in are located here in the USA.

That's just fact. And it is a pain in the ass to deal with sour and heavy oil. We do it because it costs less, we save transport costs due to proximity, as well, and once you're set up to handle heavy and sour oil, you're ready to roll.

I'm not being "political" in saying this. This is pure market forces talking, and nothing else. Chavez has one major refining location, and it's the US. Other countries aren't terribly inclined to build refineries to refine his shit. Too much up front expenditure for a product that is problematic and carbon-unfriendly in the first place. They'd probably buy from him, at a huge discount because no one would want his stuff, all things being equal, and then make a deal with us for a percentage of the 'take' to refine the stuff.

There's just no other viable way of getting his product to market, and he knows it. As the Mormons say "THIS IS THE PLACE."

That's why he reversed his intemperate remarks. No one's paying much attention to him anyway...it's gotten to the point where everytime he pitches one of his hissyfits, everyone rolls their eyes and says "Oopsie...there he goes again! It's Hugo being Hugo, donchaknow!!!"

[dysfunctional press]

26. isn't china building refinery capability to handle the stuff?

will that change the situation much...:shrug:?

[MADem]

50. They'd best build it close to or in VZ. It's a real waste to truck that shit all the way home.

They'd be spending a lot of money to get a lot of product to a spot where less product is produced. And yes, it would change the situation. Frankly, I wish they'd do it. It would push US towards alternative energy sources all the sooner. And that needs to happen.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

36. It the Usual Propaganda from the Usual

and it's a Hillary supporter too.

[pnorman]

19. There was a DU thread a short while back, that included some details about that

Basically, it stated that Exxon REFUSED the compensation that Venezuela had offered. Instead, Exxon demanded a substantially (an unreasonably) higher amount. Anyone here have that posting available?

pnorman
On edit: here's what I was looking for:
*
*
*
At issue are court orders that Exxon Mobil, the world's largest oil company, obtained in four countries freezing more than $12 billion in Venezuelan bank accounts and properties. The orders were part of Exxon Mobil's effort to get compensation in arbitration for last year's seizure of a Venezuelan oil field by the government of President Hugo Chavez.

Alvarez described Exxon Mobil's demand for $12 billion "clearly absurd," given the size of the company's investment in the disputed Cerro Negro oil project. In private discussions prior to the court orders, Exxon Mobil's demand never exceeded $5 billion, the ambassador said.
*
*
*

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5546659.html

[davidinalameda]

12. the usual Chavez apologists aren't chiming in

I'm curious to hear what they have to say

I'm sure its because Chavez is such a humanitarian and wants to help people by selling them his oil

[Mik T]

14. Chavez apologist here-I haven't been privy to the behind the scenes discussions

But I would bet it's because Exxon Mobil backed down on the 12 billion in assets they froze and noone brought that part of the story up.

If you think Exxon Mobil is your friend and wants to sell you cheap oil, there a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

And if I wasn't a mom with my wild days in my past, I sure would love a hit of whatever you are smoking cause it would have to be some pretty good stuff.

Chavez has done more for the poor in this country in the 2 years since his discount oil program started then Exxon has done in it's whole history as a company.

[northzax]

16. how much should we bet?

exxonmobil (notice no 'e') actually won the last round, the court in Manhattan denied pdvsa's appeal last week. I think it much more likely someone pointed out he was going to bankrupt his country, by cutting off his best company.

[davidinalameda]

18. in this country?

you mean the sales in the northeast?

now how many jobs are Exxon responsible for?

and how many people live on the dividends of their Exxon stock?

in my little bitty hometown, a lot of people lived well because they bought when Exxon was Standard Oil

[Mik T]

21. My Father Worked for Standard Oil

That's part of how I know it was a crappy self centered corporation.

It's escapades were one of his favorite topics at the dinner table when I was growing up. Heard about any Citgo Oil spills lately?

Those things you just said about jobs and stock could apply to any publicly traded corporation, even Walmart. That doesn't make it a "good" company.

And here in the Northeast we do have quite a lot or respect for Chavez and Citgo because they sell 10% of their US oil sales at cost to our inner city poor that might otherwise get pretty cold in the winter. They challenged Exxon and the other major oil companies to the same thing with their oil and they refused because they lack even a scrap of social consiousness.

Exxon makes quite alot of money off of you too. I'm suprised you love it so much. It's not like they want Americans to have cheap oil or something.

Do yourself a favor and go watch the movie Syriana.

[JustDavid]

27. add to that

Exxon paid 27 billion dollars in taxes.

[Mik T]

49. And how many billions did our government give them back in oil subsidies?

[High Plains]

41. Yay! Long live Exxon!!

I know I say a prayer for them every time I buy a tank of gas. Oh, wait, maybe it wasn't a prayer.

[JustDavid]

24. Chavez

pitched another little hissy fit trying to see if anyone would pay him any attention. Nobody did.

I agreed with his accessment of Bush.....but not in our country...not in NY.

No matter how much you hate someone, you respect their house. You don't talk shit about someone in their own house.

[Mik T]

30. NYC is not Bushes house.-And the UN building is not technically US territory

And we'd be pretty insulted if you told us it was. I was there during the repug convention.

My fellow NY'ers made it very clear that they wanted nothing to do with any of them. I almost felt sorry for the bastards, the way they got harrassed on the street. It was pretty easy to tell who they were 'cause they were all carrying these red convention bags. Everyone was yelling "Worms get out of our apple"

I think that in the 04 election the city went 70% KERRY 10%other and 20% repug.

[dipsydoodle]

20. Every dog has its day

so we thought we'd leave you to it.

[Mik T]

22. LOL, It won't last forever....

My 1 1/2 year old has been home sick for the past week and the weather here had been terrible. That's why I have been online so much.

So take the rest while you can because she's getting better and you're gonna be coming up to bat soon...

[endarkenment]

33. What am I apologizing for? Them selling us oil?

OK: I am very sorry that Venezuela is continuing to sell us oil.


WTF? you guys make no sense.

[fascisthunter]

35. Pretty Whacked Isn't It?

It's like watching an obsessive compulsive over wash their hands. At least a person with OCD has an excuse, this person.... oy.

[bitchkitty]

47. You make an interesting point...

It may be some kind of mental or emotional disorder that causes this behavior.

Or it could be that they are just stupid.

[northzax]

43. you don't need to apologize for anything, I suppose

I'd like Chavez to apologize for attempting to use economic sanctions that would cripple poor people in this country, to intimidate a US Federal Judge into making a decision he wanted. In the hold neighborhood, when the Italians did that, it was called extortion and intimidation.

and, of course, once his bluff was called, he backs off. And Chavez is now irrelevant. He made public threats if he didn't get his way, and he lost. ciao, bella.

[fascisthunter]

34. And the Usual from the Usual Anti-Chavez Propagandist

there is no there there dwickham, no matter how hard you try.

[davidinalameda]

53. baby-you wouldn't know a fascist if one came up and bit you on the ass

keep on hunting

[High Plains]

40. Ah, but I see the Chavez-bashers are out in force.

Ooh, he's gonna sell his oil to us after all! What a dictator!

But not just a dictator!

A tinpot dictator!

A loud-mouthed clown of a tinpot dictator!

Love the level of argumentation from all the Exxon Mobil sympathizers.

[ileus]

29. Yeah we're about to attack Venezuela....LOL

[fascisthunter]

38. Good for Venezuela and the US

this must really piss off the neo-cons on DU.... ooops, it does. :rofl:

Viva Hillary and her neo-con types.

[High Plains]

42. The Exxon Democrats are out in force.

Maybe they can hook up with the pro-life Democrats and the Raytheon Democrats and the Minuteman Democrats and have a grand old party.

[fascisthunter]

45. Same Folks Were Probably Arguing Against Impeaching Bush

They are why our party is so damn compromised and unprincipled.

[davidinalameda]

51. sounds like the apologists are out in full force

[Mik T]

55. Your posts lack substance. I think I'll be your apologist

To the rest of the posters- I am so sorry that dwickham substitutes research and in-depth discussions for sound bites and gratuitious insults.

[Jax]

56. They are pitifully transparent

aren't they?

[northzax]

58. you mean as opposed

to those 'democrats' who cheer on a foreign country threatening economic warfare against the US, which would overwhelmingly affect the poor, in order to attempt to influence a US judge? I don't know why anyone would support starving the poor here and in venezuela simply to make a cheap political point. Can you afford a 30% increase in fuel costs?

Where I come from, threatening someone economically to affect their legal performance is called a federal crime. When a guy named gotti does it, it is called extortion.

[Judi Lynn]

54. Anniversary of Black Friday: Venezuela’s devaluation and inflation debacle from 1983 – 1998

On the Anniversary of Black Friday: Venezuela’s devaluation and inflation debacle from 1983 – 1998
By Ramón Santiago - Axis of Logic Exclusive
Feb 18, 2008, 17:02

It was 25 years ago to the day when Black Friday exploded like an atom bomb over the Venezuelan economy. On that day, banks did not open their doors and the government of then President Luis Herrera Campins (RIP+) with a Central Bank almost devoid of foreign exchange reserves was forced to devalue the local currency, the Venezuelan bolívar by 100% and impose exchange controls.

From 1961 to 1983 the exchange rate to the US dollar was fixed at Bs./US$4.30.

The foreign debt of the country was around US$37 billion in 1980 and for months before the economic crisis hit, there were lines outside exchange houses to buy US dollars. In fact, capital flight of US dollars had been occurring for the two previous years and all but sucked the Central Bank dry of its reserves.

Oil prices reached their peak in 1979 during the Islamic Revolution in Iran and in the wake of declining world oil prices from 1981 to 1983 the value of Venezuelan oil exports fell from US$19.3 billion to US$13.5 billion, triggering the economic crisis.

The Herrera Campins government declared it was insolvent before the international banking community, placed a total ban on the purchase of dollars by the general public and devalued the Bolivar. The Black Friday “shock treatment” came after rich Venezuelan individuals and companies had been tipped off in advance, bought dollars and then cashed in more than a 100% profit overnight thanks to the machinations of Central Bank Governor, Leopoldo Díaz Bruzual, or the “Buffalo” as he popularly known.

Having been forewarned of the impending devaluation in 1981-1982 corporate sectors managed to spirit around US$90 billion out of Venezuela in what must be one of the biggest cases of "insider trading" in Latin American history. No one has ever been called to explain these actions which led Venezuela to being declared "insolvent" by the government which made this information available to its corrupt capitalist cohorts.

More:
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_26069.shtml