Fidel Castro Resigns As President

[girl gone mad]

Source: Sky News

Fidel Castro has resigned as Cuba's President and commander in chief.

In a statement issued to a Cuban newspaper he said he would not be returning to the Presidency.

Castro has not been seen in public for 18 months since he underwent emergency intestinal surgery in July 2006.

Born into a wealthy landowning family, he turned to Marxism because of the poverty he saw around him in Cuba.

He came to international prominence in 1959 when, along with Che Guevara, he led the uprising which overthrew the corrupt government of President Fulgencio Batista, who had turned Cuba into a decadent playground for America's rich.

Promising to give the land back to the people, he received the backing of the Soviet Union, driving a wedge between Cuba and the US that has never been removed.

Read more: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1305917,00.html?f=rss

[emilyg]

1. Thank you.

Just heard it.

[donheld]

2. I hope this doesn't cause to much trouble

Bushie will try to claim credit.

[JeffR]

7. Nailed it!

Already, in some dank little basement office at the Heritage Foundation, some little unsung author of the conservative ascendancy is squinting at his monitor as he types, "George W. Bush's greatest achievement came in his final year in office, when he singlehandedly forced Castro from power, much as his predecessor Reagan had torn down the Berlin Wall with his teeth."

OMFG.

on edit: I type like there's an earthquake under my chicken-fried ass...

[FlyingSquirrel]

19. I can see it now - GWB singlehandedly caused Castro to age and become ill

to the point of deciding to relinquish power. If Kerry had been president, Castro undoubtedly would have endured another 15 years.

[RaleighNCDUer]

158. No doubt. Don't I remember just a few years ago, people were

speculating that Castro could remain in power well into his 90s, because of his family history of longevity?

Bush thwarted that, with his indomitable will and conviction worrying Castro so much he aged prematurely.

[krispos42]

18. FIRST THING I THOUGHT!!!

I thought "oh, great, another 'foreign policy victory' for Chimpy".

Can anyone please remember that North Korea got nukes on his watch? Or that Bin Laden is STILL ALIVE?

[Prophet 451]

33. Same here

Given that the right has rewritten history to credit Reagan with the collapse of the USSR (something he was only nominally involved in), expect this to be rewritten as a great triumph for Chimpy.

[krispos42]

42. Oh, I think Reagan's increased military spending...

help bring down the USSR by bankrupting them. Unfortunately, Reagan Junior squatting in the White House right now is continuing that grand legacy by bringing US down via bankruptcy! Reaganomics to the death, dontcha know?

[Prophet 451]

44. Russian records say otherwise

The Russian records released make it pretty clear that Reagan's actions had little effect on the USSR's military spending, mainly because the USSR was already starting to fall apart by that point. While every post-war president contributed, the collapse of the USSR was less a case of America winning and more a case of the Russian people giving up on a system that just wasn't working. If we need to single out anyone in particular for praise, Gorbachev was the one dodging bullets.

[AlphaCentauri]

139. A lesson to learn from the russian people

when changes are needed there is no option but doing it, do we have the courage to change?

[Prophet 451]

239. Open question

The problem (and forgive me if this sounds cruel) is that things in the USA are not yet bad enough. When there are tanks in the streets or (in the Russian case) no food in the shops, the average plebian is forced to confront the failures of the system he lives within. When there's plenty of food to eat and plenty of distractions (i.e. a news media that resembles a gossip column and an entertainment media competing for the moron dollar), people will slumber on, content and distracted.

Bread and circuses, mate. Way it's always been.

[AlphaCentauri]

284. Bread and circuses

History has teach us that those regimes who tent to not exploit women or marginalize them fall more often.
In our circus we exploit women as entertainment.

[Prophet 451]

301. Interesting way of looking at it

I never considered it that way but I can't deny that you're right.

[eridani]

292. Bingo. They decided they couldn't afford to be an imperial power anymore

--even though they never had more than a regional empire. We need to decide the same thing, ASAP.

[AlertLurker]

62. One name: Gorbachev.

[lumpy]

185. Right on

v

[cloudythescribbler]

121. This canard about US military spending under Reagan & the USSR is hogwash

The only way the US sharply increased military spending (which actually levelled off and declined after the mid 80s) would bankrupt the Soviet Union was if they were to try to match those increases, which they already weren't doing UNDER CARTER!

There were two factors which, whether credited to Reagan or not DID contribute to the collapse of the Soviet Union: the Afghanistan War (in which the US armed and assisted figures including Osama bin Laden & Al Qaeda) and Chernobyl. I am not aware of Reaganites taking "credit" for the latter, at least not openly, though I am also not aware of anyone seriously accusing them either.

As for Afghanistan, it was a debacle like Vietnam and Iraq have been for the US, except that the US is wealthy and resilient enough of a system to have withstood at least the first of those two. What is in greatest danger here is not so much the US imperium, which appears likely to continue in any event, even if a rising China increasingly appears to surpass us, but the survival of the specifically democratic and libertarian aspects of our system, which are already undermined and corrupted almost beyond recognition, except in the realm of superficial theatrics and pretenses.

[krispos42]

162. Yeah, I guess that's true

Never mind, I forgot about Afghanistan.

Ironically, all that money and arms we gave to Osama is not bankrupting US!

[RaleighNCDUer]

159. What bankrupted the soviet union was not MX missiles and Star Wars,

but an intractable war in Afghanistan and a rigid economic system that was already on the verge of collapse. Reagan had NOTHING to do with it.

But you are right about Bushco bringing about the same results for us - an intractable war in Afghanistan AND Iraq, and a misbegotten theory of supply-side economics.

[zanne]

69. Maybe this was his (early) October Surprise? nt

[Frank Cannon]

59. Me too

Of course, it's absurd. But it was the first thing that sprung into my mind, and you just know that they're going to try it.

All hail the Chimperor.

[Orsino]

63. It's the same scheme that has proven so successful against bin Laden...

...who has aged over six years since the 9/11 attacks.

[RaleighNCDUer]

160. LOL

[Thor_MN]

70. DoubleDip finally has a legacy

Can he please just quit now?

His real legacy, beyond complete incompetence, rampant corruption, war crimes, treason will be the two recessions that define the DoubleDip Administration.

[racaulk]

110. Absolutely.

Just like Raygun and Poppy taking the credit for the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. You know * will try to paint this as "his" victory.

[enigmatic]

3. Wow

This is going to get interesting. Is fidel's brother older or younger than Fidel? I know he's up there in years, too.

[tuvor]

9. Raúl Castro was born in 1931.

Almost five years younger than his brother.

(Hope you're doing well, enigmatic.)

[enigmatic]

12. Hey bro

I was just thinking about you; I'm working w/ the NDP here in town for the Provincial Elections now; I've gone native and can't wait for my first vote as a Canadian Citizen!

I hope all is well w/ you, too:toast:

[tuvor]

14. Things are pretty good here, thanks.

Thanks to the party leaders, you have an uphill battle to hear my mom tell about it. (She's more-or-less in your general vicinity, and I think she's half-heartedly going with the ever-charismatic Ed.)

Should be a very interesting year for politics in Canada this year. (Do drop by the Canada forum a little more often :) .)

And congrats on the suffrage thing!! :toast::bounce::toast:

[Maddy McCall]

4. Wow...

That's big news at 2AM!

Thanks for posting it...I posted a link in GD to steer the discussion to this thread.

[JI7]

5. surprising

[Tatiana]

6. He must be nearing the end, then.

I hope for the smoothest transition possible for the Cuban people.

And that America stays the hell out of Cuban affairs for now.

[lapfog_1]

8. Pretty sure that means either he is already dead

or they figured out that his cancer has returned and he will not be getting better.

[Prophet 451]

34. Probably the latter

The Beeb has a recent photo on their page and I seem to remember he needs to be seen in public at least once more to formerlly hand powers to Raul.

[lapfog_1]

38. Middle of the night announcement???

I would lean to the "already dead".

Give Cubans about 24 to 48 to absorb the news, then let the cat out of the bag.

The real danger is that once the death notice is posted, some hot heads in little Havana might try a Bay of Pigs - rematch.

[Prophet 451]

46. Point

That's going to be the real danger: The US, goaded by those idiots in Miami has been running interference against Castro for fifty years, Lord knows what's going to happen now.

Of course, if Raul's smart, he'll only take power as an interim measure in preparation for full elections.

[lapfog_1]

50. I wonder if he feels that confident.

I don't think he does. He was always the behind the scenes type. Whether the people like him or not, he probably feels that he can't trust them to transfer the affection for his brother to him. Therefore... no elections. Not anytime soon.

I don't think the Cuban populace is ready to revolt however. There are a number of good things happening to Cuba these days. However, it the idiots in Florida that have me worried. I just know that there will be some attempt to return to Cuba. The good news is that it's 2008. Most of the initial set of landowner refugees are now very old... and their kids and grandkids really don't WANT to go home again, no matter how wonderful gramps makes it sound. They are Americanized and probably would not feel at home in Cuba. Would have been better if they had scattered instead of making a little Havana... they would be more assimilated. But I think that the grandkids and great grandkids have no wish now to take up arms for the cause.

[zanne]

71. I think they'll make a big display of celebrating it in the streets...

But their enthusiasm will die down when a successor is appointed.

[Vogon_Glory]

317. Koenigsbarg/Kaliningrad and Aged exiles

There was a fascinating article in the Wall Street Journal some time back about some elderly Germans who, born and raised in what was once Koenigsberg in East Prussia, started visiting Kaliningrad and made friends with the Russians who were living in what was once their house. They were welcome visitors and returned several times.

I wonder how many of the aged Cuban landowners have the humility to return as guests to their youthful haunts? Or would the exiles demand that the current occupants vacate the premises and pay back rent?

[RuleOfNah]

53. Has anyone checked if McCain/Castro polls well?

Maybe Republicans are preparing to counter any big news with their VP pick!

[Virginia Dare]

118. My thought too..

I've always figured that once his retirement was announced, he'd be dead or very close to it.

[Greyhound]

10. Wow is right, thank you. n/t

:kick: & R

[texasleo]

11. We get to lose two scumbags in the span of one year (Fidel and W)

:bounce: :bounce:

[Drunken Irishman]

13. Suh-weet!

[ConsAreLiars]

15. You regard your former governor who murdered a million in Iraq

to someone who sent doctors? How deluded is that?

[MADem]

20. Oh boy--he sent doctors. Monkey did too, to the tsunami victims.

Should we give him a medal for that?

Castro imprisoned people for daring to 'think' against the state. He imprisoned journalists for daring to write against the state. He tortured people. He rented out his military to the highest bidder. He's been at the center of nefariousness for years.

That doesn't make Monkeyboy a choir boy by contrast, but understand that Castro wasn't one either. It's not an either-or proposition. That's lazy thinking.

You plainly know nothing about his excesses. Deluded, indeed.

[ConsAreLiars]

28. Maybe do a body count.

Who wins?

Maybe do a count of lives saved through medical assistance.

Even if you love US imperialism and regard the mass slaughter of Iraqis as a good thing, you can at least see that Castro did nothing remotely similar. Or are you so truly deluded that you cannot admit to even that simple fact. Comparing a true monster like Chimpy to Castro is simply an admission of blind ignorance.

[MADem]

41. Now see, that's lazy thinking, right there.

One set of doctors 'saves' more than the others? You do know Castro has been in power 'longer' than the Monkey?

Or if you want to look at the 'bad' side, one kills "more" than the other, so one is "good" and the other is "bad?"

How about they're both assholes?

And you really need to have a look at Cuba's adventurism in South America and Africa last century if you want to do "body counts."

You OBVIOUSLY don't know what you're talking about.

The minute you tossed out that lameass little "imperialism" bomblet I realized that you were talking out of a nether orafice in sloganeering, propagandistic patter (pssst--that shit's out of fashion nowadays!). If anyone's 'blindly ignorant' of basic twentieth century history, it's YOU. Good thing they don't make people take a history test in order to vote, you'd be disenfranchised.

Go wash out your Che tee shirts...!

:eyes:

[ConsAreLiars]

49. cute

and utterly ignorant. A charming combo. Just a simple test. Run the numbers. How many have various US presidents murdered to support imperialism, capitalism, trans-national corporatism, free enterprise, whatever you want to call it, which I gather you support, and how many have died because of Castro during those years? Your sense of "morality" is as bizarre as your reasoning.

Keep sucking up that Kool-Aid. But being among the willfully blinded who see Castro as some sort of evil monster is just evidence of your being a gullible sucker. Give one set of facts ro prove the moral equivalence of Castro and the insane mass killer who governs your country. Just one.

[BestCenter]

51. So because a person killed less people than others, he's no longer responsible?

That's real cute. asl?

[Mik T]

76. Probably every sitting president we have ever had...

has had more people killed then Castro-maybe just maybe- Carter is an exception

[cloudythescribbler]

130. There's a huge amount of room between beatification and equating Fidel Castro with W ... nt

[MADem]

105. I have bad news for you. Just because you continue to misuse the word "ignorant"

that doesn't make your posts either coherent or logical.

I see, rather belatedly, that you aren't just one of those types that likes the overly dramatic "imperalist" themes, you're also one of these who enjoys using every lame fucking term from the Ye Olde Guerrilla's Dictionary.

Human Rights Watch can give you the information you seek--if you really want it. I won't do your homework for you, though, dear. Of course, you've already made it quite clear that the history of Cuba and THEIR imperialism--simply because they didn't have as big a footprint, and served as vassals of the old USSR--isn't important to you. You're only interested in shitting on your favorite enemy, the US, I see. Hardly sporting, that.

My reasoning is fine, I am not "sucking the kool aid," as you so charmingly put it, but if you take medications, and perhaps you should inquire about the advisability of that action, you might want to make sure you haven't missed any today.

You have a nice day now, ya heah?

:crazy:

[CanSocDem]

300. huh....????

"the history of Cuba and THEIR imperialism.......isn't important to you."


I wasn't even aware of it.....silly me.


.

[RaleighNCDUer]

163. Cuban 'adventurism' in South America and Africa

pales in comparison with US adventurism in South America and Africa, and just about everywhere else.

So Che and 150 cubans went to Bolivia in the 60s. Big whoop. Forces bought and paid for by the CIA have been de-stabilizeing governments, OVERTHROWING governments for 50 years and then some. How can anything Cuba did compare to our support for the Contras, the El Salvador nun-rapists, the Guatamalan genocidists? Cuba sent an engineering batallion to Grenada to build an airstrip, and we fucking INVADED over it.

Maybe YOU need a lesson in history.

[MADem]

170. One more time, to one more "Two Wrongs" aficionado

We aren't playing the "Who is WORST" game here.

Try reading for context. You never do, and it shows in your posts.

I don't give a fuck if it "pales in comparison." He's a fucking thug compared to the nations of Iceland and New Zealand, now, isn't he?

Comparison is NOT at issue. So don't try to make it so.

[RaleighNCDUer]

177. Check out the fucking LOG in your eye

before moaning about the MOTE in Cuba's eye.

It IS about who is worse, and WE are worse by far.

[MADem]

183. There you go with the TWO WRONGS again.

It isn't about who's worse, unless you're a moral relativist. All torture is wrong, all murder is wrong, all false imprisonment is wrong.

That's how I feel.

I guess you think it's OK if Fidel does it.

OK, I got your number, there, Brownie!

:eyes:

[Mik T]

201. Don't even bother

There's some serious anger management issues going on there- It's like arguing with an alcoholic.

[MADem]

267. The only ones who are angry are the ones who think that, by continuing to hector me,

they will change my mind.

Repeating the same crap over and over again doesn't do it. I've been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt.

[lumpy]

199. Hear hear

The US should stay the hell out of Cuba. It is up to the Cuban people to determine their future, not some dip sitting in the WH or Floridian rabble rousers .

[mcg]

291. Many wrongs do not make a right. n/t

[Kajsa]

116. Oh fer crying out loud!

"Even if you love US imperialism and regard the mass slaughter of Iraqis as a good thing, "

- arrogant, asinine assumption that doesn't even exist!

Please tell me, when did you risk your life to escape from a repressive government,
one that would have hauled off your smart-ass to an unknown location never to be
heard from, again?

One where DU, Move-On and other related sites would have been banned
and the owners of the sites thrown in jail?

I have several family members who fucking LIVED through that!

What's your expertise on the subject?

Know anyone living in Cuba, today?
What do they have to say about this?

[MADem]

144. It's funny how those of us who have experience with repressive regimes

are less tolerant of this idiotic pandering and fucking clueless bullshit...and justifiably so!

:thumbsup:

[Kajsa]

180. Amen, MADem!

There's nothing like personal experience ( yes, I traveled to Soviet block countries
back in the 60's and had a rifle aimed at my head at Checkpoint Charlie at age 13)
to widen the horizon of understanding.

[AlphaCentauri]

189. I was in WATTS in 1992 and had the same experience

:shrug:

[Kajsa]

203. I know what you're saying, Alpha.

I was down here, behind the Orange Curtain at that time,
but my dad lived very close to the Fairfax area that was hit
by the riots.

It was very scary.

The big difference is once the riots were over, that didn't happen
everytime to everyone in the areas affected.

That wouldn't fly today.
The LAPD is under close scrutiny for their actions during the rally
in MacArthur Park last May.

http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2007/05/lapd_attacked_j.html

That wasn't the case in East Berlin.
Those rifles were at the ready everytime someone tried to cross
over to the west side.

i.e.

Your experince happened during the riots- when we almost had Marshall law instated.
My experience happened everyday, with no unrest in the area.

[AlphaCentauri]

188. What you call repressive regime?

in what era?

[MADem]

192. Shah, Iran, pre-revolution. Khomeini, Iran, post-revolution.

Savakh on the one hand, Pasaradan on the other. It all sucked.

[AlphaCentauri]

207. So you must be talking about the Shah's brutal secret police force

http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/savak.html

[MADem]

264. It's not his speed skating team. NT

[Mik T]

193. My husband did relief work in El Salvador during their US sponsered civil war

And was taken prisoner by paramilitaries. And recorded atrocities that Fidel would have been horrified by.

And I have been there more recently to do similar work and spoken with many Salvadorans about their experience under that particular repressive regime.

That just goes to show you- you never know who you are talking to.

[Kajsa]

230. The atrocities have been committed by those

on both sides of the political spectrum.

History has proven that time and again.

I'm glad you and your husband are OK and
that he came out of it alive.

[Solon]

242. That's true, but when you have the guy with most of the guns backing you up...

you usually do a hell of a lot more damage.

[Kajsa]

247. That's true.

My Hungarian relatives will attest to that.

btw, They live on Oktober Road, named after the revolution.

[GirlinContempt]

151. I know people living in Cuba today

And they have to say that they wouldn't live in the US if you paid them to. Period.

[Kajsa]

187. What are their views

on the current political situation in Cuba?

[GirlinContempt]

194. Well, I haven't talked to them in the last week or so.

But, I know that they love Castro, and Cuba. However, they know that even more can be achieved. They hope to continue moving forward along the same path, keeping what they have and gaining more. They despise the American and Canadian systems. Juana is always worried about interference. She sees her country as an independent nation, deserving it's own choices. She is tired of being treated like an idiot because she doesn't have a lot of money (she travels with a group I've worked with to other countries). She knows that people, even if they're poor, are capable of making their own decisions, their own choices for their own unique situation.
I have no idea if this even answers the question.

[Kajsa]

197. It does.

I'm always trying to find out how the people
who live there feel about the political and economic situation.

[AlphaCentauri]

191. 11 millions won't leave Cuba, just wondering? n/t

[GirlinContempt]

195. Sorry, could you rephrase that?

[AlphaCentauri]

204. I should say, there are 11 million Cubans who do not want leave Cuba.

compare to the 1 million living abroad.

[GirlinContempt]

206. Yes.

And some people who leave intend to go back. And many are living abroad to work, but have not renounced their citizenship (doctors, etc)

[AlphaCentauri]

208. the perception is that they are seeking "freedom" abroad

[GirlinContempt]

210. Well, my feelings on that are mixed.

I suppose it depends on the definition of `freedom`. When a country shifts toward the betterment of the whole, instead of the few, generally a large group of the few leave. People who exploit and reap the rewards of others toil don`t want to remain, and will seek out a different place to do it.
Some will leave for different reasons. Family, different kinds of education, etc.

[Judi Lynn]

228. You may recall a small girl in Miami who was the subject of a dispute last summer.

Her mother came to the States, and the mother's new husband literally ditched her at the airport in Miami and went to live with his relatives.

The mother struggled to keep her two children and herself together while she looked for work in a country where she was completely alone! She started saying she wanted to go back to Cuba, and the people where she worked made trouble for her, and within a short time her Section 8 housing and her food stamps which are given to Cubans who arrive here were withdrawn. She was desperate, went to Houston to look for work away from Miami, and ended up calling the cops and then slitting her wrists in dispair because she couldn't take care of her two kids.

During the fight for the daughter to be able to return to live with the father in Cuba, it was mentioned again that the mother had been wanting to go home, and desperately hoped her daughter could go back to Cuba to live with the child's father.

That was discussed just last year in American papers. Here's something written by former New York Times journalist, Anne Louise Bardach, who travelled back and forth from Miami to Cuba writing her book on the two Cuban communities. It was published before _{George Bush} severely damaged what little travel freedom to Cuba was available:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or a contrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiles who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but choose to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriots who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.


Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

Copyright© 2002 by
Ann Louise Bardach

[Mik T]

68. Gee-I didn't know Castro had that much in common with Bush.

Bush-gave our military to the oil companies and halliburton.

Blew up the Al Jazeera bldg in Iraq (when it was full of journalists)

Had people tortured at gitmo in Iraq and at secret locations around the world.

Banned travel of Americans to Cuba-even for academic reasons

Had Earth First classified as the most dangerous terrorist org in the country even though they never killed any one.

Spied on Catholic workers.

Locked more then a thousand people up for demonstrating against the repug national convention in NY

Guess he's a lot more like Castro then anyone would like to admit huh?

[MADem]

146. Another lazy "two wrongs" thinker. Feeling smug? You shouldn't.

My point, which you missed, was that they're BOTH assholes.

You wanna quantify it, go ahead.

[Mik T]

168. Can you reply ONCE to a statement without cursing, namecalling or otherwise being rude?

You're not doing your ideaology any favors by sounding like Rush Limbaugh.

[MADem]

172. Stop assuming you know anything about my "ideology" and stop talking

crap. You obviously have no FUCKING experience with brutally repressive regimes, otherwise you wouldn't be so FUCKING quick to cozy up to and excuse the behavior of murderous thugs.

And if you do not like my 'cursing' too FUCKING bad. You've got an Ignore button, use it if your sensibilities are so easily bruised.

BTW, the Rush Limbaugh reference is "not on." In order to "sound like" Rush Limbaugh, I would have to subscribe to his viewpoints, and I do not.

But way to slide around that "personal insult" prohibition in a clumsy, ham-handed, self-righteous manner. Heckuva job, BROWNIE.

[Mik T]

186. Poor thing- you need to go to some anger management classes

Your blood pressure is obviously getting out of control. Do yourself a favor and remove everything breakable from your environment.

And I wouldn't make so many continuous assumptions about people because when you turn out to be constantly wrong you undermine yourself.

[AlphaCentauri]

196. wow you sound more worry about losing your enemy

[Mik T]

169. Can you reply ONCE to a statement without cursing, namecalling or otherwise being rude?

You're not doing your ideaology any favors by sounding like Rush Limbaugh.

[Mik T]

221. You are being simplistic and naive

It's extremely naive and innocent to think that there are many countries out there with a spotless record.
All morality when it comes to nationhood is on a scale of from bad to worse.

There is no such this as a nation of spotless pure goodness.

Unfortunately it tends to be one method of staying in power that, although immoral, is effective.

[Mik T]

75. good deeds abound

[coalition_unwilling]

124. Do you have any idea what life was like in Cuba for the common

people before Castro??? Castro increased literacy rates, lowered infant mortality rates, increased life expectancy, stamped out prositution and pornography in large part.

On balance, Castro did wonderful things for his people.

On edit: Castro accomplished this all while facing vicious counter-revolutionary threats and assassination attempts from the U.S.

[Mika]

135. Agree on the stats. But, Castro didn't do these things. The Cuban people did.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care needs to be forced on any population. Castro didn't "give" it to them either.

Together, nearly all Cubans worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

The Cuban people wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system.

The people of Cuba wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it.

Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.

[MADem]

142. Ahhh, the TWO WRONGS argument. Spare me.

He imprisoned people unjustly. He tortured and murdered his enemies.

So he didn't do it as much as some. He certainly was no Hitler, so let's give him a prize?

Really...gee, in New Zealand they don't torture or murder ANYONE. What a concept!

:eyes:

[coalition_unwilling]

165. You are not responding to my question. Again, do you have any

idea what life was like for the masses of Cubans before Castro during the Batista regime???

[MADem]

167. YOU are not responding to my POINT. You are suggesting, that because

life was hideous for poor Cubans under Foogie Batista, that TWO wrongs make a right.

Sorry, your logic sucks. There's no excuse for murder, imprisonment, and torture, even if the cause is "the greater good of the state." And just because things were "worse" under the old regime is no excuse.

So don't even attempt to GO there.

Hitler liked dogs--do we put him on the cover of Dog Fancy magazine? Of course not. You don't "praise" someone for not killing "too many" people, not imprisoning "too many" people, not torturing "too many" people.

[coalition_unwilling]

229. I know whose side I'm on and it's definitely not the casino owners or sugar

plantation owners of the Batista era. Please just consider me a fan of increased literacy and reduced infant mortality and let's leave it at that, OK?

You do agree that life was hideous for poor Cubans under Batista (I think), but you do not believe that "on balance" (the words from my original post) life has improved for most Cubans, if I'm understanding you correctly.

[MADem]

268. I am not on the side of the casino or plantation owners either.

I simply have the vision to see that there might have been a third way. One that didn't include state sponsored murder, torture, and unjustified political imprisonment.

I refuse to play, as I have said repeatedly, the "Two Wrongs Make a Right" game. That is like saying "Well, cut Hitler a teeny little bit of slack--he was a real charmer to his girlfriend, was most avuncular around small children, and he DID love dogs!"

I don't compromise on human rights issues. And I have trouble understanding those who do, particularly when they try to wear a "progressive" or "liberal" label. Individual freedom is the most "liberal" element of life, after all.

[Mik T]

209. Most nations do things that are inappropriate.

I guarantee you that even the nation of New Zealand -at some point in it's history- had people murdered tortured or otherwise enslaved. It is the nature of power to corrupt, and it's up to the less powerful more moral factions to keep them in check.

It's extremely naive and innocent to think that there are many countries out there with a spotless record.
All morality when it comes to nationhood is on a scale of from bad to worse.

There is no such this as a nation of spotless pure goodness.

Even Denmark, which is probably one of the most enlightened countries in the world, probably had a few shady events in their past somewhere. Maybe...Ok Denmark might just be an exception
but I am sure someone out there could prove me wrong about that too.

Unfortunately it tends to be one method of staying in power that, although immoral, is effective.

[Hannah Bell]

249. gad...

what happened with the natives there in good old nz, eh?

[cloudythescribbler]

128. Some of these accusations against Fidel C are true, but others are NOT:

He rented out his military to the highest bidder. He's been at the center of nefariousness for years.

Castro allied with the Soviet Union for the reason that his revolution was a direct challenge to the dominant imperium in the hemisphere -- namely the US. And there was of course the strong ideological affinity with the Cuban revolution, which increased during that alliance.

I do NOT consider the role of Cuba in Southern Africa, particularly in Angola, to be a mercenary one. Savimbi in Angola was clearly a front for South African and US interests to destabilize an anti-colonial, anti-neocolonial regime in Angola (which also was not and is not a nirvana of saints in any case). The struggle against Savimbi was and was recognized accurately as part of the overall struggle against colonialism and apartheid in the region, and was NOT a struggle that the Cuban people resented or wearied of (like the US in Vietnam and in Iraq). It is simply calumny to suggest that the Cuban efforts to spread its vision of revolution, whether in Latin America or in Southern Africa, were a matter of renting out to 'the highest bidder', even though some situations, such as Cuban troops (successfully) protecting Gulf Oil's installations in Cabinda from Savimbi-ite sabotage, were at least "complex", as often happens in the world of international relations.

Castro was at the center of many developments -- good and bad. Consider one area -- gay rights. In the early decades of the Cuban revolution, gays were actually rounded up and forcibly sent to live in work camps (essentially concentration camps). But later on, by the 80s, there was an abrupt reversal, and gays were not only freed, but acceptance and toleration etc taught widely and equal rights (to the general level of noncitizenship some would note) meaningfully granted. The country has indeed been under siege since 1959 CONTINUOUSLY, including one civilian airliner with over 70 civilians shot down as part of the CIA's operation Mongoose.

I do not stand as one who believes in either objecting to or trying to minimize or justify the many accurate criticisms and condemnations that can be levelled at the revolution and the government of Fidel Castro. But at the same time, it is difficult to find ANYWHERE in the US mainstream anything CLOSE to a fair evaluation of that country's revolution and policy, particularly in light of the state of siege at the hands of the US that they have endured, including now for almost 17 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the termination of its substantial aid to Cuba.

[MADem]

149. Uh, Angola wasn't their only adventure, by any stretch.

They were pretty imperialist for a teeny little island off the coast of FL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Cuba

Scroll down for the laundry list of adventures.

I'm not looking for a full history. All I am doing is pointing out that we need to hold up on the canonization of Saint Fidel, thanks anyway...

[liberalsoldier5]

269. Indeed, my friend!

Adios Fidel! Dubya- your next!

[intaglio]

16. For all his faults, a notable man of the 20th Century

I think he was hoping to see Bush removed from office - may he still do so ...

[tritsofme]

17. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

May the liberalization of Cuba begin, and may the oppressive communist regime crumble and freedom flourish on that wonderful island.

[MADem]

22. A free Cuba is bad news for Puerto Rico.

A lot of the industry in PR might migrate. Hey, low bid, and all that...and Cuba has some of the most industrious and best educated people in the world, who will work for cheap.

[AlphaCentauri]

198. and for Florida too

there will be no more subsidizing to the anti communist elite plus many in Miami will start living the state.

[MADem]

315. It'll go back to being the sleepy geezer snowbird haven it once was, perhaps? nt

[Doctor Cynic]

23. and let's hope those in Miami don't start fucking with whatever happens next.

[Prophet 451]

35. Which they will

I'd bet next month's mortgage payment that right now, someone in Miami is salivating at the thought of Castro stepping down.

[Common Sense Party]

37. They've only been waiting for 49 years.

These things take time.

[zanne]

73. Yup. They'll be buying Cuba as soon as they can. nt

[cloudythescribbler]

132. someONE? What kind of bet is that? I bet Kucinich doesn't get the 08 Democratic prez nomination

[AlphaCentauri]

200. There will be a mass migration from Florida to Cuba

the celots will renounce to their benefits and leave for a free Cuba

:sarcasm:

[tkmorris]

27. Yes, and may the beaches be covered with Ramada Inns......

And a McDonald's on every corner. Let's turn Cuba into Las Vegas in the Caribbean.

[gorfle]

78. Why not?

That is exactly what I was thinking.

Man, if I were those guys, I would be wanting to set up my country as the ultimate tourist destination. Wasn't it that way once before? They could be rolling in money down there.

Plus maybe with the big ethanol push they could become an energy provider with some of that sugar cane?

[Virginia Dare]

120. You think tourist dollars will have them rolling in money?

fat fucking chance. Look at the rest of the Caribbean, does the money ever trickle down to the people?

[gorfle]

173. So no income is better than some income?

Somebody has to work in all those resorts.

I figured that would make jobs for people. Right now they've got nothing.

[Hannah Bell]

250. Huh?

They have food, shelter, clothing, education, medical care, a beautiful environment, community values & low crime.

But I'm sure "a job" in a nice tourist casino would be much better.

[gorfle]

263. Betcha...

Betcha their standard of living would skyrocket with a massive influx of US tourist dollars.

Provided, of course, you get some labor unions going to prevent the corporations from taking advantage of the workers.

[GirlinContempt]

288. You seriously, seriously do not know what you are talking about.

Cuba has a BOOMING tourist trade. It's HUGE.
American citizens running in and staying in hotels wouldn't turn the countries economy around.
Dropping the EMBARGO would.
They have tourism WITHOUT corporations.

Sheesh, have you even heard of this country before?

[gorfle]

303. I did not claim otherwise.

Cuba has a BOOMING tourist trade. It's HUGE.

I did not claim otherwise. It was claimed that the people of Cuba already had good lives. I said their standard of living would skyrocket with the influx of American tourist dollars.

American citizens running in and staying in hotels wouldn't turn the countries economy around.

It sure wouldn't hurt.

Dropping the EMBARGO would.

No doubt that would help too, and it should also be done. I didn't say anything about embargoes.

They have tourism WITHOUT corporations.

So what? The point was made that the workers are exploited and the wealth from the tourism does not propagate down to the workers. Regardless of who's pulling the strings, be it a corporation or some other entity, the workers need representation to solve this problem.

Sheesh, have you even heard of this country before?

Do you go out of your way to sound like an arrogant bitch or does it come naturally?

[GirlinContempt]

304. Yeah, actually, you did claim otherwise.

"So no income is better than some income?

Somebody has to work in all those resorts.

I figured that would make jobs for people. Right now they've got nothing."

My bitchiness comes naturally, especially when people who have no idea what they are talking about, and they ADMIT that, go on to make ridiculous statements with no basis in reality, and don't bother to even learn about a thing before they parrot asinine opinions.

No, you didn't say anything about embargoes, but that is the root of the problem, not a handful of US tourists joining in an already lucrative tourist trade. You talk about corporations as if they both exist, and are necessary. Why? Is it because, perhaps, you do not understand the way the Cuban system works?

[gorfle]

306. That's fo sho.

My bitchiness comes naturally, especially when people who have no idea what they are talking about, and they ADMIT that, go on to make ridiculous statements with no basis in reality, and don't bother to even learn about a thing before they parrot asinine opinions.

I admit I don't know much about Cuba. I know plenty about labor history in the United States. I know plenty about what happens to workers with no representation and the abuses that get heaped on them by those in power.

It was stated that increased tourist income would be of no benefit because it would not trickle down to the workers. This was what inspired my post about unionization. Even not knowing anything about Cuba in particular, if the original poster's statement was true about the abuses under Batista where the workers were taken advantage of, then Unions have demonstrated an ability to rectify those kinds of situations.

I reject your claim that "every nation is a snowflake" and there are no direct comparisons that can be made.

No, you didn't say anything about embargoes, but that is the root of the problem, not a handful of US tourists joining in an already lucrative tourist trade.

How are the embargoes responsible for the workers not reaping the benefits of the lucrative tourist trade, as the post I was responding to asserted?

You talk about corporations as if they both exist, and are necessary. Why? Is it because, perhaps, you do not understand the way the Cuban system works?

I don't know who controls the strings, and it is not relevant. Whether it is a corporation, the State, or Santa Claus, if the workers are being abused in the relationship the answer is better worker representation. This worked here in the U.S. I suspect it will work in any economic situation where the good being produced is not easily transportable.

[GirlinContempt]

307. This is useless.

If you think you can make a comparison between the Cuban situation, and the US situation, we have nothing more to talk about. Labour history in the US does not apply to Caribbean nations. If you are unwilling to recognize that these countries are incredibly different from the US, in structure, history, etc, there is nothing I can say.

Unions do not fix governments. The workers of cuba do reap the benefits of tourism without unions, my post about embargoes is responding to your theory that US tourism would somehow increase their standard of living. Lifting the embargo, not a handful of US tourists, would change these things.

[gorfle]

309. You're probably right.

If you think you can make a comparison between the Cuban situation, and the US situation, we have nothing more to talk about.

Unless you would like to talk about specifics about what is wrong with my economic theory that enables unions to be effective, you are right, there is nothing more to talk about.



Labour history in the US does not apply to Caribbean nations.

Why not?

If you are unwilling to recognize that these countries are incredibly different from the US, in structure, history, etc, there is nothing I can say.

I'm sure they are different in structure, history, etc. I'm also sure that the basic concept of work, pay, and compensation ain't all that different, since it's been going on since the beginning of time. Likewise the all of the problems and power struggles between employers and employees.

Unions do not fix governments.

I did not claim otherwise.

On Edit:

Unions can, however, effect great change in governments. See US Labor law after the rise of Unions.

The workers of cuba do reap the benefits of tourism without unions,

My post was in response to the assertion by another poster that before Castro the workers were being taken advantage of. A solution would have been to organize the workforce, ala Unions.

my post about embargoes is responding to your theory that US tourism would somehow increase their standard of living.

Increased US tourism could only help their standard of living - provided of course there are means to make sure that some of the increased income makes it to the common man, rather than being concentrated in the hands of some entity.

Lifting the embargo, not a handful of US tourists, would change these things.

No doubt lifting the embargo would help, and should be done. I never claimed otherwise.

[GirlinContempt]

313. The Batista 'government'

and Batista himself, befriended the Mafia and corporations. This wealth flowed in to their pockets. His opponents, people who organized, were gunned down in the streets (see Antonio Guiteras). This is not a situation for Unions. He suspended the Constitution, and rights to strike. He completely reorganized the government to ensure that he and his cronies received the wealth flowing in from gangsters and the US. When rebellions happened, he ordered his soldiers to kill ten rebels for every lost solider. He sold contracts to the highest bidder with no regard to fairness, he pocketed 30% of profits, above and beyond what he siphoned off through the
government that should have been going to things like health and education for his people. His police force and military beat down students and shut down universities when they protested. The military police would patrol the streets at night and pick up people that could possibly be organizing anything that the government didn't like. They were arrested and tortured. José A. Echeverría was killed for making a radio broadcast. Frank País was killed for organizing for change.

This is not a situation for unions. You can not just introduce the idea of unions in that kind of political system. It doesn't work. You'd get shot, or disappeared.

Now, lets look at unions in other Latin American countries:

The AFL-CIO and AIFLD work actively to take the teeth out of South American unions. George Meany, President of the AFL-CIO and also of AIFLD, boasted support from the "largest corporations in the United States . . . Rockefeller, ITT, Kennecott, Standard Oil, Shell Petroleum . . . Anaconda, even Readers Digest. . . and although some of these companies have no connection whatsoever to US trade unions, they are all agreed that it was really in the US interest to help develop free trade unions in Latin America, and that's why they contributed so much money".

J. Peter Grace, Chairman of the Board of AIFLD and also Chairman of the Board of the W.R. Grace Corporation, one of the ninety five transnational companies that back the Institute, applies the doctrine in tactical terms. Grace says AIFLD urges "cooperation between labour and management and an end to class struggle" and "teaches workers to increase their company's business". He says the goal of AIFLD is to "prevent communist infiltration, and where it exists . . . get rid of it".

And thus to an outline of their practise: AIFLD played an important role in the destruction of the Cheddi Jagan government in Guyana. They worked with massive funds, up to $800,000 in a country with less than a million people, funnelled through the Public Service International and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. At least eleven graduates of AIFLD's Front Royal, Virginia Centre were maintained on a payroll to organise the riots and company union opposition to the leftist head of government.

In the Dominican Republic, where AIFLD worked to unseat the government of Juan Bosch and tried to organise labour support backing the 1965 US invasion, they have continued to play a role towards stabilising the repressive status quo. One AIFLD plan in the Dominican Republic gives some insight into AIFLD "training". It called for "a stepped up propaganda and education campaign in addition to motorised brigades (vigilantes) . . . a specially trained mobile group of 'educator organisers' . . . used to confront and battle . . . the extreme left." In a specific reply to this charge, Director Doherty's Washington office says "AIFLD is glad to take credit for giving fraternal and material support".

http://www.counterpunch.org/scipes03292004.html
Massive mobilizations, strikes, street conflict, hysterical mass media, social and economic disruption: Chile in 1972-73 Venezuela in 2002-04.

The AFL-CIO is once again on the scene, this time in Venezuela, just as it was in Chile in 1973. Once again, its operations in that country are being funded by the U.S. government. This time, the money is being laundered through the quasi-governmental National Endowment for Democracy, hidden from AFL-CIO members and the American public.

Once again, it is being used to support the efforts of reactionary labor and business leaders, helping to destabilize a democratically-elected government that has made major efforts to alleviate poverty, carried out significant land reform in both urban and rural areas, and striven to change political institutions that have long worked to marginalize those at the lowest rungs in society. And also like Allende's Chile, Venezuela's government under president Hugo Chavez has opposed a number of actions by the U.S. Government, this time by the Bush Administration.

ACILS-also known as the Solidarity Center-has overseen all of the AFL-CIO's foreign labor operations since 1997, centralizing a previously decentralized set of regional bodies that had long worked in Africa, Asia, Europe and Latin America. These organizations, which played a key role in the Cold War, had a terrible affect in the developing regions of the world.

There is a consensus that ACILS' work under President John Sweeney has been considerably better than foreign operations carried out under previous AFL-CIO presidents George Meany and Lane Kirkland. But the continuing lack of transparency, accountability and even simple reporting to AFL-CIO members about ACILS has generated concerns among activists about what the organization actually does in the many countries in which it operates. Solidarity Center Director Harry Kamberis' background is not a typical labor background and looks suspiciously like CIA, which also adds to activists' unease. (See my report in Labor Notes, February 2004.).

Most of ACILS' funding comes from the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), not the AFL-CIO. The NED was created by the Reagan Administration in 1983. One of the authors of the enabling legislation has said that NED was to do at least some of the work previously done by the CIA, albeit publicly: its talk appears progressive, but its actions are reactionary. One of the NED's initial directors was that well-known democrat, Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon's point man in the campaign against Chile's elected president, Salvador Allende.

http://www.selvesandothers.org/article10406.html
he UNT seeks to displace the Confederation of Venezuelan Labor (CTV), historically the dominant union body in the country. It aims to undo decades of decline by organized labor: Gil estimated that real wages in his plant haven’t risen in 18 years.
There is a history of union corruption in Venezuela-overwhelmingly within the CTV. In her book The Failure of Political Reform in Venezuela, the British academic Julia Buxton describes it as one of the “richest and most powerful union confederations in the world” in its heyday. <9> The CTV’s intimate ties with the political establishment allowed “for the illicit enrichment of union leaders, who acquired a personal interest for maintaining the model of party control,” she wrote. In fact, the Venezuelan state provided 90 percent of the funding for the CTV in the 1960s and 1970s. <10> The AFL-CIO’s ties to the CTV, moreover, have been among its closest with any foreign labor federation. This relationship has continued despite the CTV’s alliance with the forces that mounted the April 2002 coup-of which the CIA had foreknowledge-that was embraced by the Bush administration. <11> The AFL-CIO’s support for the CTV continued through the devastating oil industry lockout, and the strike that followed.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Labor/AFL_CIO_Venezuela.html

http://www.workertoworker.net/afl_cio_foreign_policy_venezuela_kim_scipes.html
Although not generally known by union members as it has been consciously hidden by its leaders, the AFL-CIO actually has a long-time foreign policy program that goes back to the days of the American Federation of Labor (AFL) during the 19-teens under then-president, Samuel Gompers. And, in fact, much of this foreign policy program--during Gompers' time but also since 1962--has been carried out in Latin America
This foreign policy program has been initiated and carried out behind the backs of American workers, although "in our name." The AFL-CIO has long been known to carry out a reactionary labor program around the world. It has been unequivocally established that they have worked to overthrow democratically-elected governments, have collaborated with dictators against progressive labor movements, and have supported reactionary labor movements against progressive governments (Scipes, 2000: 12; Shorrock, 2002, 2003; see, among others, Snow, 1964; Morris, 1967; Radosh, 1969; Scott, 1978; Spaulding, 1984; Barry and Preusch, 1986; Cantor and Schor, 1987; Weinrub and Bollinger, 1987; Armstrong, et. al., 1988; Sims, 1992; Scipes, 1996; Carew, 1998; Nack, 1998; and Buhle, 1999).

And while the AFL-CIO's regional organization, AIFLD (American Institute for Free Labor Development), was especially known for its involvement in events leading to the 1973 coup in Chile (Hirsch, 1974, n.d.; Scipes, 2000; Shorrock, 2003), what is less well known is it's long-standing ties with the Venezuelan CTV. In fact, according to labor journalist Lee Sustar,

Venezuela--a key focus of U.S. foreign policy since the oil boom of the 1920s--became Washington's counterweight to the Cuban Revolution of 1959. The headquarters of the AFL-CIO-initiated Inter-American Regional Organization of Workers (ORIT) was moved to Caracas. In 1962, Venezuela was the linchpin of the AFL-CIO's newly launched American Institute for Free Labor Development (AIFLD); the AIFLD board included both the AD leader Betancourt and his COPEI counterpart, Rafael Caldera. Next, in the mid-1960s, the AFL-CIO even provided funding for a CTV-owned bank. AIFLD chief Serafino Romualdi, later alleged to have been a CIA agent, called his relationship with Betancourt "the most fruitful political collaboration of my life." Romualdi helped engineer the expulsion of the Communist Party and other leftists from the CTV; elsewhere, AIFLD collaborated with the CIA and the State Department to undermine or overthrow Latin American governments opposed to the U.S. (Sustar, 2005; 3 see also Hirsch, 2005).

In other words, not only has the AFL-CIO had a long-standing foreign policy program, it long has been active in Latin America, and especially in Venezuela.

http://labornotes.org/node/230

http://labornotes.org/node/1307

In mid-March, Valmore Locarno Rodriguez and Victor Hugo Orcasita were riding the company bus from their jobs at the Loma coal mine in northern Colombia. Locarno and Orcasita were chairman and vice-chairman of the union at the mine.

The bus was stopped by 15 gunmen, some in military uniforms. They began checking the workers' identification, and when they found the two union leaders, pulled them off the bus.

One of the gunmen shot Locarno in the face, as his fellow workers watched in horror. Orcasita was taken off into the woods at the side of the road. There he was tortured. When his body was later found, his fingernails had been torn off.

Protesting the deaths, 1,200 miners at Loma stopped work. In Colombia, labor activism is often punished with death. By mid-May, 44 union leaders had been violently murdered this year alone. Last year assassinations cost the lives of 129 others. The National Labor School reports that 1,500 have been killed in the past decade. Out of every five unionists killed in the world, three are Colombian, according to a recent U.S. union report.

Last year the AFL-CIO called for ending military assistance to Colombia. Labor's strong reaction to the Colombian murders stands in contrast to its relative silence during the Reagan administration-sponsored wars in Central America in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

During that era, AFL-CIO President Lane Kirkland tried to suppress criticism of U.S. foreign policy in union ranks and to stop local efforts to organize support for Salvadoran unionists.

During the cold war, Kirkland and other labor conservatives accused most Colombian unions of being too left-wing. In turn the Colombians, like many third world labor federations, accused the AFL-CIO of supporting only anti-communist unions which defended U.S. foreign policy.

http://www.venezuelafoia.info/ned-english.html

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?sectionid=45&itemid=5074

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?sectionid=45&itemid=3374
For some time, there has been a lot of confusion outside Venezuela about what exactly has been happening there. How could progressives and trade unionists support the Venezuelan government despite its support of the poor through land reform and income redistribution and its attack on neo-liberalism and the FTAA---- given the dedicated opposition of the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers (CTV)? How, when there was a general strike, could we side with the government rather than workers? For trade union organisations, the problem has been even more difficult--- given the support for the CTV by international labour organisations (including the ILO). Nevertheless, as the Canadian Labour Congress (CLC) noted in the statement issued by Ken Georgetti on 18 April last year after the defeated coup, the role of the CTV in that coup against the democratically elected government of Hugo Chavez raised serious questions about the character of the CTV and its place in the crony capitalism and sham democracy that had left 80 % of the population in poverty in an oil-rich nation.

Today, though, there should be no confusion. Because the CTV has been exposed as just an arm of the Fedecamaras, the Employers Association with which it has been allied-- in the coup and in the so-called general strike. A strange general strike, indeed. One in which workers in the oil industry (blue collar), electricity, transport, public sector, basic industries and the subway, among others, kept working. One in which workers were laid off by the conglomerates (the monopolies) and transnationals and told that they would get full pay for the period of the lock-outs--- only now to discover that this promissory note was dependent on the c! ompanies defeating the Chavez government. (They are being offered half-pay, loss of vacations, etc... and those that protest? They're in the queues at the Ministry of Labour filing complaints over their dismissals.)


How's that for a start? You could always learn about it for yourself. Do a little research. I find it tiresome to have to educate people who're too lazy to learn about a thing for themselves. Maybe you should bother to learn about this stuff before you decide what the solution is. I know this makes me an arrogant bitch, but it would be just as fair to call you an arrogant asshole for expecting people to educate you about your own opinions, and believing that the American solution is the worlds solution. So I guess we're even.

[gorfle]

314. You are right.

I retract all my comments on the situation. I don't know enough about the situation to have an opinion. Thank you for the long, insightful post. Sorry for my ignorance.

[GirlinContempt]

316. Ok.

I'm sorry for being a bitch. Truly. It's easy to get frustrated on here.

[Judi Lynn]

318. REALLY appreciate your post. I'm coming back later to read it thoroughly. Thanks so much for taking

the time and investing it in educating people who won't take the time to do the ABSOLUTELY NECCESSARY RESEARCH needed to know about what they're attempting discussing.

It takes so much longer to break down and actually find out for yourself but it's essential. It's a crime to assume you know it all!

Thanks for reading for yourself, and taking the time to steer others to some desperately needed resources.

[GirlinContempt]

319. That means a lot coming from you, Judi Lynn

You're a paragon of informed postings, sources and information. I always love reading your posts, especially because I think we hold a lot of the same issues dear.

People should do research on their own, but, at the same time, I guess helping collect it for them can be good. One way or another, it needs to get out there. Any little part you can do helps, right? And some people may go off to do their own reading if they find what you've posted compelling.

[GirlinContempt]

287. Don't even bother

Anyone who thinks cuba doesn't already have a booming tourism industry just because the US doesn't allow their citizens to go there isn't worth attempting to educate.

They have NOTHING?! What a load of crap. The US isn't everything, and needs to get the hell over itself already.

(this isn't directed at you)

[GirlinContempt]

152. Yeah, cause it worked SO well before.

:eyes:

[gorfle]

175. How did it work before?

How did it work before? I don't know much about Cuban history.

[RaleighNCDUer]

179. The Way It Was --

Illiterate peasants worked the cane fields for US sugar concerns for pennies a day. 10% of the female population under 40 was in the sex trade. The Mafia owned every big hotel and resort on the island.

Castro did not simply overthrow a dictator - he led a movement that overthrew the worst excesses of capitalism.

Letting US corporations back in would be to invite all that back again. The Cuban people will not stand for it.

Maybe, with time, they will evolve into a democratic socialist state, in the European model. Which is my hope for us, as well.

[gorfle]

211. Sounds like they needed labor protection.

Sounds to me like they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

They needed better labor protection laws and less corruption in government. They needed Unions.

[RaleighNCDUer]

220. They just might have gotten them, too, in 1959 (or 58?) when Castro came to

the US looking for assistance, thinking that we really believed in this 'democracy' thing. But when the US refused to assist him against Batista he turned to the soviets, and that's all she wrote.

Castro was a great admirer of the US, and referenced the American Revolution as much as the Bolivaran Revolution is speaking of his own. Che kept saying that he couldn't trust the US - turned out Che was right.

[JVS]

299. protection is a racket, they needed and got worker control of the government

[GirlinContempt]

184. It didn't.

Prosperity was uneven. For the sugar cane working who was unemployed half the year and discouraged from finding other employment so as to be available when the plantation owner needed him, life did not improve. Even though Cuba had the fourth highest standard of living in Latin America, that was not high. Besides, Cubans compared themselves to the US not Honduras or Bolivia. Illiteracy was high; schools too few; affordable medical care almost impossible for the average person to get; and housing substandard. Rural areas suffered more than urban areas because Cuban presidents had always feared the cities more. In short, social justice was a victim of the Batista years.
http://www.historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=684

Batista opened the way for large-scale gambling in Havana, and he reorganized the Cuban state so that he and his political appointees could harvest the nation's riches. He announced that his government would match, dollar for dollar, any hotel investment over $1 million, which would include a casino license, and Lansky became the center of the entire Cuban gambling operation.

Under Batista, Cuba became profitable for American business and organized crime. Havana became the "Latin Las Vegas," a playground of choice for wealthy gamblers, and very little was said about democracy, or the rights of the average Cuban. Opposition was swiftly and violently crushed, and many began to fear the new government.

That same year, in midst of the revolutionary upheaval, the 21-story, 383-room Hotel Riviera was built in Havana at a cost of $14 million, most of which came from the Cuban government. It was Lansky's dream and crowing achievement. The hotel opened on December 10, with a floor show headlined by Ginger Rogers. Lansky's official title was "kitchen director," but he controlled every aspect of the hotel. He complained that Rogers "can wiggle her ass, but she can't sing a goddam note!"
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/batista.htm

Cuba is thought of as a prosperous and idealistic place before the revolution. And, if you were an American tourist, it was. Money flowed, liquor, drugs, parties, music, you could get it all. However, the quality of life was miserable. Batista's coup did nothing but provide for American interests. They spend government money on hotels, supported the mafia, etc. There was no appreciable health care, education was a joke. People were starving. All that money went in to the pockets of Americans, and Cuban higher ups. The infant mortality rate was astronomical. It was, essentially, like most other poor countries that the west uses for production and tourism: A prosperous veneer, and a rotting core.

[gorfle]

214. Sounds like they needed some Unions.

Sounds to me like the robber baron era of the United States. Sounds like they needed some Unions to bring things under control for the workers, instead of tossing the money-making engine out.

[Solon]

222. Most of that money making machine was basically taking the wealth of Cuba...

and putting it in the hands of corrupt politicians, a dictator who treated the treasury as a personal bank, and the Mafia.

[GirlinContempt]

226. I don't think so.

Unions only function that way in certain kinds of society. Look at how much good unions have done for the American workers in the long run. Not very much.
There is no way to gain that kind of excess wealth without exploiting people.

[gorfle]

231. I disagree...

Unions work great where production cannot be moved to another, cheaper, location.

A resort location, by definition, cannot be moved.

I think it would have been the ideal situation for a Union.

[GirlinContempt]

235. Cuba already has resorts.

That function just fine without Americans, and that don't require US style unions. The US is the only country that doesn't travel to Cuba, which actually makes it a more popular tourist destination.

You admit you don't know anything about Cuban history, so let me tell you.
Each country develops from it's own set of circumstances. They are almost never repeated, each is a unique little snowflake. Applying already failed controls from a system and culture that is the polar opposite will likely not have the same results. Each country, political system, etc grows from the cultural soil of thousands of years of history. And trying to make "them" like "us" is basically always a failed display of self-absorbed mumbo jumbo.

[gorfle]

253. Again I disagree...

That function just fine without Americans, and that don't require US style unions. The US is the only country that doesn't travel to Cuba, which actually makes it a more popular tourist destination.

Imagine the boost to the Cuban economy if it were open to Americans. I would bet that the increase in income would more than offset the loss from the few who would consider it no longer a popular tourist destination because Americans are there.

You admit you don't know anything about Cuban history, so let me tell you.
Each country develops from it's own set of circumstances. They are almost never repeated, each is a unique little snowflake. Applying already failed controls from a system and culture that is the polar opposite will likely not have the same results. Each country, political system, etc grows from the cultural soil of thousands of years of history. And trying to make "them" like "us" is basically always a failed display of self-absorbed mumbo jumbo.

I believe the commonality of the human condition and economic principles are a bit more pervasive than you believe.

Unions work, and did work here, so long as corporations were tied to a specific location. For many years, they were, because of the expense of shipping and managing from remote locations. The steady march of technology has erased those barriers, so now corporations flee Union-controlled areas in favor of cheaper places. This works when you can ship the product from one location to another cheaply.

I believe the tourism industry, having the fact of static location, is an ideal setting for a labor union. The corporations in control of the businesses cannot flee the location, so a Union could bargain effectively for better compensation and benefits.

[GirlinContempt]

270. US tourism would probably increase their tourism revenues

I'm not saying it wouldn't, I'm saying that just because Americans can't go there doesn't mean they don't have a booming tourism industry as it is. They do. And, part of it's popularity is because there are no Americans.

I'm sorry, but you really don't seem to understand the situation at all.
Unionism can be important, however, when you look at a dictator like Batista, unionization could not fix the problems inherent in the US dominated island. Throughout latin america, unions have served the elites. That is where the money is. In fact, US unions work with other corporately controlled unions AGAINST the average worker. The situations (Cuba and the US) are so different, they just are not comparable. The united states grew out of one of the most unique set of circumstances ever seen. You couldn't possibly reproduce it, and I don't know why anyone would *want* to, frankly. It's unsustainable, and at present, does so much harm to the world and it's people, it's not a system to emulate.

However, latin america has toiled under the boot of North American and European systems and oppression for hundreds of years. The most HONESTLY successful nations, as in successful for their people not just the GDP, are those which forge their own path, based on their own history, and their own needs.

You say unions work, but then go on to say only in specific circumstances. And you admit to knowing little about the specific circumstances in Cuba. Latin american history is riddled with despots, coups, shitty treatment of the indigenous people and economic disasters, just to name a few. Unions can not undo the world situation, they cannot undo years of brutal oppression, and they can not repair a failed system.

To ignore the unique needs and situations of different countries shows a complete lack of understanding, or at least a very strong degree of nationalist self-absorption. Trade agreements like NAFTA fail to actually improve the lives of people because a country always dominates, because they are too different to be on equal footing.

This is like saying that if they'd unionized in Russia, the Czar would have seen reason. It doesn't work that way. Unions, again, serve a purpose. But their purpose is not to route out and change hundreds of years of economic disparity, slavery and poverty.

The poor of the world are just as entitled to make their own decisions, good or bad, as the middle class and rich. And those decisions may be different than wealthy people would make. But they are valid, and they are meaningful, and they deserve to be treated as such.

[gorfle]

274. I remain unconvinced.

n/t.

[GirlinContempt]

275. Well, maybe do some extensive reading and research on the subject.

Also, just fyi, there is no point putting n/t in the body of your post. If you put it in the subject line, it tells people not to bother clicking as there is nothing further. If it's in the body, it serves no purpose :)

[gorfle]

276. I know, I was just being spiteful.

n/t

:)

[GirlinContempt]

278. Ah, ok

Pardon me then. Continue on being spiteful and wilfully ignorant :)

[Kajsa]

232. The unions in CA beg to differ.

Latest example- the Writer's Strike.

Ahnuld's special election went down in flames
went he attempted to bust CA's unions.

[GirlinContempt]

234. Look at the situation of workers, as a whole, in the US.

[Kajsa]

237. True, many of them ( myself included)

don't have unions.

I'm pointing out that unions have accomplished
many things for US workers, addressing your comment
that they haven't.

40 hour work week.
Overtime pay
Sick leave
Maturnity leave-Family leave
Vacation pay

Unions are NOT the enemy, nor are they useless.

[GirlinContempt]

240. I'm not saying they haven't accomplished anything.

Or that they are the enemy. However, unions are powerless in the face of corporate run government. People who fought for unions and social justice during the industrial revolution would be horrified to see how stagnant workers protections have become. Unions are great, but they lead a lot of people in to thinking that this is the top. This is the best it can be. And, when we look around, there are places light years ahead of the US, and even Canada, for treating workers right, protecting them, etc.
Unions have a place. But, unions cannot fix a thousand year history of injustice and oppression by making sure that the serfs get an extra few dollars a day. Historically, in countries with similar histories, the unions are right wing organizations int he pockets of the bosses, because that's where they money is.

[Solon]

241. True, but that was after over 50 years of blood being spilled...

and then they were defanged after only 30 or so years after that. The fact is that you can't compare nations of divergent histories in this case. The situations were different, if were going to be formed in Cuba in the Batista era, it would have lead to wholesale slaughter.

[Kajsa]

245. Absolutely!

The unions did not come about without a lot of suffering and yes, deaths.

Regarding "defanged"- the CTA here is very powerful.

For that matter so is the Writer's Guild.

Look who they were up against- wealthy studios and production companies.

[RaleighNCDUer]

174. It makes for great partnerships

between the Mafia and El Presidente.

That was why they get rid of Batista in the first place.

[KillCapitalism]

21. Hopefully the U.S. will stay out of Cuba's business.

Long live the Revolution!

Capitalism will hurt the environment and the people of Cuba.

[Prophet 451]

36. Some hope n/t

[INDIA]

96. so you're cheerleading for continued communism in Cuba? nice! n/t

[Virginia Dare]

122. What should we do? Bring them Iraqi-style "freedom" and "democracy"?..n/t

[INDIA]

138. How about we let the Cuban people decide for themselves?

People tend to want to choose their own elected officials, and buy nice things as a result of hard work. It's a good thing, no matter what the poster I'm responding to may think. Keeping their education/healthcare system with a democratically elected government/president and a capitalist economy? That's what would be best for the Cuban people. That's what I want to see. Hopefully they can pull it off on their own...time will tell.

[Virginia Dare]

140. In a perfect world...

sadly it isn't one. And we'll end up sticking our noses in it and screw it all up, I'm sure.

[GirlinContempt]

153. A capitalist stye economy is not best for anyone.

Jesus H Christ.

[Mik T]

171. Uh-you can't

Education and healthcare in CUBA are socialized BECAUSE they don't have a capitalist economy.

Their life expectancy is 3 years longer then ours too.

[INDIA]

181. that's wrong. but okay....

[Mik T]

212. You are right- I got life expectancy and infant mortality rate mixed up

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the chance of a Cuban child dying at five years of age or younger is 7 per 1000 live births in Cuba, while it's 8 per 1000 in the US. WHO reports that Cuban males have a life expectancy at birth of 75 years and females 79 years. In comparison, the US life expectancy at birth is 75 and 80 years for males and females, respectively. Cuba's infant mortality rate is better than the US with 5 deaths per thousand in Cuba versus 7 per thousand in the US.

[INDIA]

219. You misunderstood me...

I'm saying that it is quite possible to have free health care and education without socialism. (Canada, Europe) And we already have free education in the United States up until the 12th grade. And state schools/community colleges are quite affordable with decent grades in high school. Not free yet...but maybe someday.

So THAT'S where I'm saying your wrong. You were implying the only way Cuba can have free healthcare is because it's communist. Cuba could transition out of communism and keep their free healthcare and education. In fact, that would probably be the easier option, since privatizing the two would be enormously complicated and chaotic.

Sorry for the disconnect.

[Mik T]

225. Free healthcare and free education (+ nationalized industries)

Are all hallmarks of a democratic socialist state.

That said- there is a big difference between socialism and communism.

Cuba could cease to be communist and become democratic socialist without losing those things.

So- yes you are right.

[KillCapitalism]

141. Yes, I am a Marxist afterall.

It's not that the Castro version of communism is perfect by any means, but it's better than Bush Capitalism where 50 million people are without health care and college kids graduate with crushing debt with the hope of finding a McJob.

[INDIA]

145. No. It's not. Nobody with a reasonable thinking mind would agree with you. n/t

[KillCapitalism]

155. Hey I would emigrate to Cuba if I could.

The climate is wonderful and the land is pretty unspoiled. Problem is they strictly do not allow immigrants. Some non-Soviet Marxists tried to emigrate there not too long after the revolution and they were jailed for being "spies."

Believe me, a lot of things about how Cuba is run that make me think :wtf: but there are more things that make me think the same thing that are done in this country.

[INDIA]

164. "Hey I would emigrate to Cuba if I could."

How obnoxious you are! I'm not saying the US is the greatest country in the world or anything,(there are a couple European countries with better standards of living) but it pisses me off when people don't appreciate how good they really have it here. I mean...wow. Just wow.

You would emigrate to Cuba, immediately regret your decision, and probably be knocking on the gates of the US Interests Section in Havana, demanding the U.S. come and rescue you. What a joke. But at least you'd have free healthcare!!!

[GirlinContempt]

205. Wow, talk about obnoxious.

This "America is so great!" bullshit makes me sick. I honestly believe there are some people who'd live with less so they were no longer living on the backs of others. There are more than a couple of countries with better standards of living. And no matter the standard of living, using human beings as stepping stones on the path of greed and vice is disgusting and deplorable, not something to be proud of.

Sick.

[INDIA]

213. Your quote: "This "America is so great!" bullshit makes me sick."

My quote: "I'm not saying America is the greatest country in the world or anything"

Your reading comprehension skills need some work...

People in the United States live better than 90-95% of the world's population. We usually rank anywhere from 10th to 25th in the U.N.'s rankings of different aspects of standards of living (literacy, average income, overall happiness etc). Most of those countries ahead of us have populations of under 50 million and a relatively homogeneous population.

Canada is a great place to live. Great healthcare, schools, and very cool/fun cities. Nice people too. I wonder how great it would be to live there if your population suddenly ballooned to 300 million...or even better, if the United States didn't line your southern border. I'm sure you're familiar with the saying, "Canada: 3,000 miles long, 50 miles deep."

Just curious... If you HAD to live in one of either Cuba or the United States, which would you choose?

[GirlinContempt]

224. My reading comprehension is fine.

I wasn't directly quoting you, but reading what you have to say. And your crap about how good people have it there, and saying only a couple of countries have it better speaks to what I said.

People in the US live better at the expense of the other 90%. It's sick and wrong. Canada is the same. It's w.r.o.n.g. Being born in a country doesn't give you the right to use the rest of the world to get the crap you want. The way we live is unsustainable, unethical, and nasty.

I don't how how it would be if we didn't have a self absorbed, self righteous nation on our border. But, no matter who borders Canada, it is wrong to live at the expense of others.

If I had to live in either, I would live in Cuba. I've been to both places. The Cuban people, the country, everything about it is beautiful. I know lots of great Americans, but I do not admire the politics and the economy of the United States. I would take Cuba in a heart beat.

[INDIA]

265. "If I had to live in either, I would live in Cuba."

I guess you don't like voting for a national leader/president. Or having different political parties. Or the internet. Or information from the outside world. Or living above what amounts to poverty.

Of course the country is beautiful and the people are great. The culture is interesting and unique. Nobody is disputing that. That's not a result of communism. The government is awful, and your freedoms are extremely restricted. Not to mention the fact that you'd probably be thrown in jail as a spy and deported if you chose to move there from Canada. Because even the Cuban government doesn't think anybody would be stupid enough to move there from a nice place like Canada unless they had ulterior motives...

Meanwhile, more than twice as many Canadians moved to the US last year than the other way around. Just sayin...

[GirlinContempt]

272. Man, you are such a....

I can't say what you are.

I don't CARE how many people leave this country and go to the US. That is their choice. It doesn't mean that your country, and mine, don't opress others for their own gain. It doesn't mean that somehow, because other people want to have a bunch of shit they don't need, that it's ok. It doesn't absolve ANY of us. Your nationalism is nauseating. And this is why we don't WANT you here, thank you VERY much.

And, I suggest you visit Cuba, talk to some Cubans, and do some reading outside of Mr McCarthys Library. Your points are weak.

My sister travels to the Turks and Cacos, and the Bahamas twice a year. She can't access the internet 97% of the time, and she's staying in 4 or 5 star resorts and hotels.

If you want to talk about awful governments, I could come up with a mile long list of US and Canadian atrocities that would turn your hair white. But, you want to compare apples to oranges, and I'm not in to mixing fruit.

You want to believe that the US is that much better, enjoy yourself in that. But, however you justify the excesses and greed and rape of resources, it isn't going away.

[Solon]

227. The United States was extremely lucky, compared to the rest of the world...

Historically. A Large amount of natural resources, no immediate foreign threats, and a relatively small indigenous population to conquer and control. The U.S. was lucky, and using its position of security, in the geographical sense, was able to, and continues, to use its combination of economic and military might to keep its relatively high standard of living without regard to the amount of people they step on in the process.

[GirlinContempt]

273. Quick - Put on your stars and stripes tighty whities

and try to convince me my country sucks because some people immigrated to the US, because clearly, I want to be a blind, nationalist dick too, and so will care, and defend some lines on a map to the death because I was born here.

[catzies]

293. That's pretty presumptuous. One can wish to live in Cuba while

appreciating what it is we have here. We're asking to be able to go there.

WhenI was growing up in Miami all my friends in school and their parents who were from Cuba all talked about it like it was the most beautiful place on Earth.

I simply want to see it for myself. And if I'm lucky, maybe get to live there.

[GirlinContempt]

305. It is a wonderful place.

You can travel to it from either Mexico or Canada. Last I heard, they (Cubans) were not stamping US passports :)

[AlphaCentauri]

202. Maradona and Gabriel Garcia Marquez do it all the time

[Mik T]

215. That's an opinion-everyone has one

[INDIA]

150. So, who are you voting for in November? lol! n/t

[ORDem]

223. It's apples and oranges I'm afraid (not tropical pun intended)

Although I would argue that for the poor under the Batista regime, Castro was a benefit for them in terms of raising their standard of living and education, etc., Castro's model of Communism, is not one I would wish on anyone in general. Yes, health care for all, free education, and amazing resilience given the enormous pressure the country faced from the U.S., but the lack of freedom is severe there. Yep, you can be a doctor, lawyer, etc. but the government is going to tell you where you can practice and even push you into a field you may not care for because that's what's needed.

The whole thing with Cuba is that the situation didn't need to be like this. It's bitterly ironic that the U.S., with it's then (as now) powerful culture (for good and bad) and resources couldn't look past our ideology (in the form of Eisenhower and Nixon then) to extend welcome to Castro when he visited here. Most people don't realize that he came first to the U.S. and only went to the Soviet Union when we rejected him.

How different things could have been if we'd been more tolerant and realized that our greatest force is not our military, but our model of freedom and the generosity of our people, when properly guided by principled leadership.

:dem:

[citizen snips]

285. Communism does not exist

only socialism exists in Cuba.

[speedbird]

24. nothing changes, Dear-Leader Raul taking over

is Fidel still head or the Politburo?

[Dark]

25. He's just going to wind up shooting himself in the back of the head.

If he isn't dead already.

[Divine Discontent]

26. I would think he's on his death bed, wouldn't you all?

I never imagined him stepping down, not unless he was forced, or was near death, so that's what I'm thinking is going on... why does this have to happen with chimpy still in power to intervene in the future of cuba (don't think there isn't some type of US intervention into this if the spies have informed the White House he's nearing death) God bless the people of Cuba, I hope no major warring comes from this and they have wide-sweeping liberation.

[MonkeyFunk]

29. Maybe, maybe not

the elections are coming up next week. He may realize he can't effectively complete a term - or even part of one. So he's stepping aside.

It could mean he's very very ill - or not. Who knows?

[Beregond2]

30. Castro

I don't see this as leading to any major changes there.

[Divine Discontent]

31. oh, thank you for the info! n/t

[Prophet 451]

39. Could be either

Fidel is the kind of personality that would want to stay in power if he could. Not because of a lust for power for it's own sake (or not entirely that, anyway) but because he will forever see his work as unfinished. The fact that he's not standing makes me suspect that either he's extremely ill or the last bout of cancer made him too weak to even contemplate a return to power.

[The Croquist]

85. He has been very ill

I don't know if he's getting better or worse but he hasn't been capable of running the country for 18 months. With his term expiring it's just the right time to bow to the obvious.

An apology:
I was about to say that Senator Tim Johnson will do the same but some quick research showed me that he was back serving in the Senate. Somehow I missed his return. I feel stupid.

[Common Sense Party]

32. "Promising to give the land back to the people" Did he ever do so?

He may have kicked out the colonialists, but did the Cuban people ever get "their land" back?

[Prophet 451]

43. Depends how it's defined

In terms of physical land, no (or at least, I don't think so) but they did get universal healthcare, basic education and the majority have housing of some kind.

That's not to ignore Fidel's excesses but his legacy will be mixed and in there, there were some successes.

[Common Sense Party]

45. If he came to power "Promising to give the land back to the people"

I imagine that's what the Cubans were expecting.

The other things are nice, but I'm sure after 50 years, they might want some freedom and land ownership.

[Prophet 451]

48. Checked Wiki, turns out he did give the land back, sort-of

Apparently, Castro did enact several laws dealing with land reform. Wiki doesn't have many details though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Agrarian_Reform_Law

[Thothmes]

77. Inmates in American prisons also

get free health care, basic education and free housing. I bet those folks in Cuban prisons get the same as the basic population.

[Prophet 451]

98. So?

I'm sorry, I don't see the point you're trying to make (except perhaps that normal people in the US have less guarentees than prison inmates), I'm not trying to whitwash Castro's faults.

[Judi Lynn]

79. Cuba offered compensation long, LONG ago. Agreement was made with owners in other countries,

and resolved then. Owners in the States decided against it. Compensation was also discussed in private meetings between John F. Kennedy's aide, Richard C. Godwin, and discussed in his notes which were made public.

Compensation has been the pattern employed for expropriated land all over the world: it's hardly unique to Cuba.

As for their healthcare, education, etc., see these remarks made by a World Bank official:

Learn from Cuba, Says World Bank
By Jim Lobe, IPS, 1 May 2001
WASHINGTON, Apr 30 (IPS) - World Bank President James Wolfensohn Monday extolled the Communist government of President Fidel Castro for doing "a great job" in providing for the social welfare of the Cuban people.

His remarks followed Sunday's publication of the Bank's 2001 edition of 'World Development Indicators' (WDI), which showed Cuba as topping virtually all other poor countries in health and education statistics.

It also showed that Havana has actually improved its performance in both areas despite the continuation of the US trade embargo against it and the end of Soviet aid and subsidies for the Caribbean island more than ten years ago.

"Cuba has done a great job on education and health," Wolfensohn told reporters at the conclusion of the annual spring meetings of the Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). "They have done a good job, and it does not embarrass me to admit it."

His remarks reflect a growing appreciation in the Bank for Cuba's social record, despite recognition that Havana's economic policies are virtually the antithesis of the "Washington Consensus", the neo-liberal orthodoxy that has dominated the Bank's policy advice and its controversial structural adjustment programmes (SAPs) for most of the last 20 years.

Some senior Bank officers, however, go so far as to suggest that other developing countries should take a very close look at Cuba's performance.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html

[Hekate]

40. NOW can the US normalize relations with Cuba? Interesting times ahead. nt

[ileus]

88. Let's hope so....Together we can get Cuba back on track.

[Judi Lynn]

90. We can get Cuba back on track by BUTTING THE #### OUT of Cuba's business. n/t

[GirlinContempt]

154. Thank you.

I am so freaking tired of people who have no idea what they're even dealing with making grand pronouncements about what is best for people they've never even laid eyes on. Christ almighty, boiling blood.

[Judi Lynn]

93. The only decent thing to do would be to remove the +45 year old embargo & illegal, extraterritorial

demands of other countries:

"Denial of Food and Medicine:
The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo
On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba"
-An Executive Summary-
American Association for World Health Report
Summary of Findings
March 1997

After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health has determined that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has dramatically harmed the health and nutrition of large numbers of ordinary Cuban citizens. As documented by the attached report, it is our expert medical opinion that the U.S. embargo has caused a significant rise in suffering-and even deaths-in Cuba. For several decades the U.S. embargo has imposed significant financial burdens on the Cuban health care system. But since 1992 the number of unmet medical needs patients going without essential drugs or doctors performing medical procedures without adequate equipment-has sharply accelerated. This trend is directly linked to the fact that in 1992 the U.S. trade embargo-one of the most stringent embargoes of its kind, prohibiting the sale of food and sharply restricting the sale of medicines and medical equipment-was further tightened by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

A humanitarian catastrophe has been averted only because the Cuban government has maintained a high level of budgetary support for a health care system designed to deliver primary and preventive health care to all of its citizens. Cuba still has an infant mortality rate half that of the city of Washington, D.C.. Even so, the U.S. embargo of food and the de facto embargo on medical supplies has wreaked havoc with the island's model primary health care system. The crisis has been compounded by the country's generally weak economic resources and by the loss of trade with the Soviet bloc.

Recently four factors have dangerously exacerbated the human effects of this 37-year-old trade embargo. All four factors stem from little-understood provisions of the U.S. Congress' 1992 Cuban Democracy Act (CDA):

1. A Ban on Subsidiary Trade: Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba's ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.

2. Licensing Under the Cuban Democracy Act: The U.S. Treasury and Commerce Departments are allowed in principle to license individual sales of medicines and medical supplies, ostensibly for humanitarian reasons to mitigate the embargo's impact on health care delivery. In practice, according to U.S. corporate executives, the licensing provisions are so arduous as to have had the opposite effect. As implemented, the licensing provisions actively discourage any medical commerce. The number of such licenses granted-or even applied for since 1992-is minuscule. Numerous licenses for medical equipment and medicines have been denied on the grounds that these exports "would be detrimental to U.S. foreign policy interests."

3. Shipping Since 1992:The embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.

4. Humanitarian Aid: Charity is an inadequate alternative to free trade in medicines, medical supplies and food. Donations from U.S. non-governmental organizations and international agencies do not begin to compensate for the hardships inflicted by the embargo on the Cuban public health system. In any case, delays in licensing and other restrictions have severely discouraged charitable contributions from the U.S.

Taken together, these four factors have placed severe strains on the Cuban health system. The declining availability of food stuffs, medicines and such basic medical supplies as replacement parts for thirty-year-old X-ray machines is taking a tragic human toll. The embargo has closed so many windows that in some instances Cuban physicians have found it impossible to obtain life-saving medicines from any source, under any circumstances. Patients have died. In general, a relatively sophisticated and comprehensive public health system is being systematically stripped of essential resources. High-technology hospital wards devoted to cardiology and nephrology are particularly under siege. But so too are such basic aspects of the health system as water quality and food security. Specifically, the AAWH's team of nine medical experts identified the following health problems affected by the embargo:

1. Malnutrition: The outright ban on the sale of American foodstuffs has contributed to serious nutritional deficits, particularly among pregnant women, leading to an increase in low birth-weight babies. In addition, food shortages were linked to a devastating outbreak of neuropathy numbering in the tens of thousands. By one estimate, daily caloric intake dropped 33 percent between 1989 and 1993.

2. Water Quality: The embargo is severely restricting Cuba's access to water treatment chemicals and spare-parts for the island's water supply system. This has led to serious cutbacks in supplies of safe drinking water, which in turn has become a factor in the rising incidence of morbidity and mortality rates from water-borne diseases.

3. Medicines & Equipment: Of the 1,297 medications available in Cuba in 1991, physicians now have access to only 889 of these same medicines - and many of these are available only intermittently. Because most major new drugs are developed by U.S. pharmaceuticals, Cuban physicians have access to less than 50 percent of the new medicines available on the world market. Due to the direct or indirect effects of the embargo, the most routine medical supplies are in short supply or entirely absent from some Cuban clinics.

4. Medical Information: Though information materials have been exempt from the U.S. trade embargo since 1 988, the AAWH study concludes that in practice very little such information goes into Cuba or comes out of the island due to travel restrictions, currency regulations and shipping difficulties. Scientists and citizens of both countries suffer as a result. Paradoxically, the embargo harms some U.S. citizens by denying them access to the latest advances in Cuban medical research, including such products as Meningitis B vaccine, cheaply produced interferon and streptokinase, and an AIDS vaccine currently under-going clinical trials with human volunteers.
(snip)

American Association for World Health
1825 K Street, NW, Suite 1208
Washington, DC 20006
Tel. [phone] / FAX [phone]
Email: [e-mail]

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/aawh.html

[cloudythescribbler]

133. this is the kind of post I like to see at DU -- chock full of info, I'll need to read more closely

[ronnie624]

296. Judi Lynn is truly an asset. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

117. And which track would that be.

Overall they've managed pretty well despite the USA's embargo which the great majority of the world is against. And don't give me any bollocks about freedom - USA citizens are not allowed to travel there - so much for freedom.

[slackmaster]

123. Ending the embargo would allow Cuba to find its own track

Imagine a Cuba with open borders, and without rationing.

[Kajsa]

244. See post #155.

Are Cubans free to travel?

[Hannah Bell]

248. In fact, yes.

[Kajsa]

251. Then why are refugees leaving

in secret, avoiding detection?

Aren't they free to leave?

[Hannah Bell]

279. They're not.

[Kajsa]

281. Please elaborate.

I haven't heard this.

Thanks.

[dipsydoodle]

282. That isn't the issue

Little Boots harps on about freedom while denying those rights to American citizens. It's call cynicism.

[Kajsa]

308. I understand that.

I'm asking whether Cubans are free to travel.

Asked and answered.

I'm now waiting for elaboration, having not heard
that they are free to travel.

Actually, what GW is guilty of ( among many other things)
is hypocrisy.

Cynicism is what we feel listening to him.
(among many other things)

[Vogon_Glory]

119. I Suspect That Cuba Is Heading Into the EU's Economic Orbit

I suspect that Cuba is likely to be heading into the European Union's economic orbit. Unlike the US, EU countries have been trading partners with Cuba and has often supplied material and economic aid. Many European businesses (At least those companies that don't HAVE to deal with the US government) already do business with Cuba.

In the meantime, the pre-1959 Cuban insiders based in South Florida have been falling prey to the inexorable passage of time and the effects of old age.Anti-Castro embargo laws are likely to remain on the Federal books for a while yet as Congressional hard-liners fight off progressives' and other economic interests' efforts to repeal them.

The effects of the EU's supplying material economic aid shouldn't be underestimated. Despite the US's right-wing long-running hate-fest against foreign aid, foreign aid has a measurable benefit for the donor country (-ies). The donor countries get to supply the dimensions and standards of the donated goods. This is no small thing; when the recipient countries need more widgets or replacement parts, guess where they turn to first?

Such aid policies are a lot cheaper than colonial wars, holding down Eastern European satellite countries, or launching failed oil grabs like the US did in Iraq. It also makes for better karma.

[dipsydoodle]

127. There is already the situation

whereby Cuba receives substantial income from tourism from EU countries. I also found in passing from my son that its not unusual for Cubans to refuse US$'s in payment as they much prefer either £'s or Euro.

[Mika]

143. Yep. No convertable dollar in Cuba. Now its only Euros & Cuban pesos. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

283. That's simply because they don't want US$

Isn't it ? As far as I aware they do plenty of trade with the EU anyway for which I'd guess they also get paid in Euros.

I had writtten Europe then changed it to EU. The EU has got so big now even I've lost the plot. Maybe Cuba will join it one day :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

176. Maybe Cuba can get US back on track.

They are the ones with universal healthcare, free post-secondary education, the highest literacy rate in the western hemisphere...

[lumpy]

216. LOL . Lord knows someone has to get the US back on track.

There are lessons to be learned from other nations,including Cuba. One of the US's biggest problems is the We Know-It-All-We-are-the-Greatest Nation in the World head in the sand thinking.

[eridani]

294. No, Cubans can get on their own track all by their lonesomes, sez me. n/t

[SeattleGirl]

47. Wow!

He's been President of Cuba for nearly all my life!

[Judi Lynn]

52. Mexico reaches deal with Havana to restructure Cuban debt

Mexico reaches deal with Havana to restructure Cuban debt
Published on Monday, February 18, 2008

MEXICO (AFP): Mexico has struck a deal with Cuba on restructuring a 400-million dollar debt owed by the communist island nation, banking officials said Sunday.

"The signing of an agreement to restructure the debt ... is a major step toward the normalization of commercial and financial relations between both countries," read a statement by the Banco de Comercio Exterior de Mexico (Bancomext) Sunday.

Financial ties between the two countries have been strained over the past six years because of a rift over Cuba's debt, but the new agreement allows them to "restore their historic level of economic collaboration," Bancomext said.

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/news-6113--5-5--.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mexico to Refinance $400 Million Owed by Cuba, Bancomext Says

By Guillermo Parra-Bernal

Feb. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Mexico agreed to refinance $400 million in defaulted Cuban debt as the countries take steps to increase trade.

The accord, reached yesterday in Havana by diplomats, comes after six years of decreasing financial ties between the countries, the Mexican Trade and Export Bank said yesterday in a release. State-owned Banco Nacional de Cuba and the island nation's central bank will be responsible for the debt, according to the statement. Terms weren't disclosed.

The money being refinanced will be used to fund Mexican exports to the Communist-ruled island. According to data from the Mexican bank, known as Bancomext, trade between the nations fell to about $200 million last year from an average $435 million a year during the 1990s.

Under acting President Raul Castro, Cuba's government has been renegotiating terms of its defaulted debt to attract new investment and blunt the effect of a 46-year U.S.-led economic embargo. Since Raul Castro replaced his ailing brother Fidel in July 2006, Cuba has restructured $166 million in defaulted loans with Russia and stretched out payments with Venezuela for billions of dollars in annual oil purchases.

More:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=arJ0Lf2y.EDk&refer=latin_america

[Swagman]

54. whatever happens in Cuba-let's hope the USA stays the hell away

from the place. Wherever America goes hell follows.

[Auggie]

137. Fat chance. They're dusting off the Shock Doctrine right now.

[Mika]

147. Cubans have been inoculated against shock doctrine.

They are well versed in imperial practices.

[Auggie]

157. We'll see

[Judi Lynn]

55. Embargoes, Blacklists and Assassination Plots: Bush's New Cuba Plan

July 11, 2006

Embargoes, Blacklists and Assassination Plots
Bush's New Cuba Plan
By WAYNE S. SMITH

In May of 2004, the Bush Administration's Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba issued an almost 500-page report that seemed to conclude the Castro government was virtually at the point of collapse. Just a few more nudges--a few more Radio Marti broadcasts, denials of a few more travel licenses, and support to a few more dissidents--and it would all be over. The United States, the report seemed to suggest, would then come in and show the Cubans how to operate their schools properly, make their trains run on time, and grow their crops more efficiently. It was envisaged as such a U.S.-run operation that in July of 2005, a U.S. transition coordinator was appointed. One skeptical observer noted at the time that in the case of Iraq, the Bush Administration had at least waited until it invaded and occupied the country before appointing a transition coordinator. Did his appointment in this case mean the U.S. intended to invade Cuba as well? And if not, what was the U.S. transition coordinator supposed to do from his office in the State Department building? Even today, that remains unclear.

Perhaps OAS Secretary General Jose Miguel Insulza's reaction to the idea of a U.S. transition coordinator for Cuba summed it up best. "But there is no transition," he said, "and it isn't your country."

More:
http://www.counterpunch.org/smith07112006.html

Wayne S. Smith is now a Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy and perhaps the most veteran U.S. observer of U.S.-Cuban relations, having been a Cuba analyst in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (1957-58), Third Secretary of Political Affairs in the American Embassy in Havana (1958-61), Cuban Desk Officer (1964-66), Director of Cuban Affairs in the Department of State (1977-79), and Chief of the U.S. Interests Section Havana, 1979-82

[jeff30997]

57. Lol that reminds me...

When in 2000 Cuba proposed to help supervise the elections after the beginning of the circus.That was priceless.

[Judi Lynn]

64. Here's a photo you might find amusing, from Agence France-Presse:

Ho ho!

[Occulus]

166. Front page news in Cuba,

and they even called it like it was.

There are people upthread who would do well to see this photo. Sadly, they'll just say it doesn't matter...

[Kajsa]

236. I'm sure not one of them.

GW wasn't elected- he stole both elections.

My hope is that paper ballots with paper receipts for all votes cast
becomes the standard in our elections.

If I thought everything in the US was hunky-dory I wouldn't even be here.

We've lived through seven years of political hell.

Our "Commander-in Chief" ( Ha!) called our Constitution
a "goddamn piece of paper!"

[jeff30997]

277. "(Ha!) "

Every-time I read or ear that,this face pops in my mind:



I guess I watch the Simpsons too much.:)

[jeff30997]

56. He could have waited a little bit.

After all he only outlasted 8 American Presidents.Chimpy is still there,dagnabit!

[onehandle]

66. I know what you are thinking. Bush will take the "credit."

I've been fearing that for years. This will be a Huge part of his "save the legacy" actions of late.

Damn.

[lumpy]

218. Never fear. Bush has lost credibility within the thinking

world community. The truth always prevails even if it takes time.

[soothsayer]

58. We've already got the cruise ships set up in Key West just waiting for the US

to give the green light.

[Judi Lynn]

61. Wonder how that will work with Bush's travel ban to Cuba? He has tightened it to the point

Cuban "exiles" can't even go there for vacation any more, the way they used to, having their visits cut to once every 3 years, and ONLY to visit direct, immediate family members, not even cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and certainly not only friends, or vacations in hotels.

If they charge over there, what are their plans? Another Mariel Boatlift? Do they plan to load up with Cubans to bring back here?

We're crowded already. US Presidents DON'T WANT large numbers of Cubans all showing up at once: puts a strain on our budget. A BIG strain, considering the Cuban Adjustment Act offers instant legal status (no border guards to chase them around, beat them into submission, and deport them), instant access to welfare, social security, food stamps, U.S. taxpayer-financed Section 8 housing, medical treatment, even financial assistance for education. You name it, they got it! (A Florida State Senator, Rudy Garcia's sweet little old grandmother went to government offices to get enrolled for her own food stamps, even though the family owned a store in Florida selling home building materials, and was not treated as the royalty she believed herself to be, so she got not only the clerk who assisted her fired, but 5 ADDITIONAL RANKS above the clerk fired, as well! The clerk got fired, the employee who hired the clerk got fired, the supervisor who hired that employee got fired, etc.)

All other nationalities are rounded up and deported, even after making trips of 700 miles by sea in tiny old boats, hundreds drowing in the Caribbean, or staggering across searing heated deserts where hundreds die annually.

You say huge ships are waiting to go load up a lot MORE of these guys. Hmmmmm. Very, VERY unfair to other people.

[Bacchus39]

86. ummm...the cruise ships would be lining up to travel to Cuba with American tourists

however, there will be no instantaneous change until the Cuban government opens up.

[Judi Lynn]

89. That would not be possible until Congress removes the travel ban.

Cubans have ALWAYS hoped for a big tourist presence from America.

Cuban government opens up? Oh, really!

Maybe you could explain what you mean to the DU'ers who have been to Cuba time after time after time.

There are Canadian and European DU'ers who have come and gone freely to Cuba for years.

[Bacchus39]

92. Read: there will be no instantaneous change in US-Cuba relations

until Cuba opens up. that would include the travel ban of course. but as that poster suggested, the cruise ships are lining up, ready and waiting to go. NOT to pick up Cubans as you strangely implied.

[Judi Lynn]

95. Then what do you suggest is the purpose of the flotillas the "exiles" have been discussing and

planning every time the cretins started another rumor he was dying of cancer going back for AGES?

Where were the flotillas going in Cuba, and for what purpose? What do you suggest they were talking about all this time?

[Bacchus39]

126. I have no idea, you are the expert

there will be no flotillas landing in Cuba if the current system remains in place with or without Castro.

I already said there will be no instantaneous change, despite any exile wet dreams.

[Judi Lynn]

100. Where WOULD the cruise ships be going, if they are in American ports?

If it has anything to do with Cuba, they will want to make sure they are waiting until the U.S. Congress passes legislation allowing them to come and go from Cuba.

Concerning picking up Cubans, as I "strangely implied," has been mentioned over and over again, as in this quick google grab, obtained for your reading pleasure:

“We haven’t modified our maritime security status and we have not moved any personnel or assets yet,” said Petty Officer James Judge, a Coast Guard spokesman. Coast Guard officials have previously said they would increase the number of cutters and aircraft patrolling the Florida Straits if Mr. Castro died or relinquished power, in anticipation of an overwhelming increase in boats and rafts heading to or from Cuba. Over the decades, many Cuban exiles have said they envisioned taking boats to the island to fetch relatives or reclaim lost property the minute Mr. Castro died.
(snip)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/world/americas/01cnd-miami.html?_r=1&ex=1361163600&en=e37d54cbd108ef40&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss&oref=slogin

[Bacchus39]

125. again, as long as the governmental system and tight controls remain in Cuba

there will be no signficant change regarding travel (both the restrictions on Cuba from Cuba, and on Americans in the US), the embargo, business transactions, etcetera.

I'm not even sure why you are arguing. Yes, I know the US cruise ships companies need authorization to travel to Cuba.

Exiles can envision anything they want. however, if the current system in Cuba remains after Castro resigns or dies, they won't be taking boats to Cuba.

Again, the cruise ship companies "are ready and waiting to go" in the abstract. Do you get it now?????

[Vogon_Glory]

107. No Cruise Ships For A Few Years Yet

I doubt that there would be many cruise ships visiting Cuba for the next few years. Even though most cruise ships are foreign-flagged, most cruise lines are owned by US companies and are compelled to obey US laws concerning trade and travel to Cuba.

Recently, two more European-based cruise lines, AIDA of Germany and Pullmantour of Spain, were forced to abandon Cuban ports of call when they were taken over by US companies.

One of the laws passed in the 1990's prohibits any ship that has docked in Cuba from docking in a US port for at least six months. Considering what the Repuds and the pro-embargo hard-liners have continued to be able to do even with the departure of Tom DeLay (Good riddance!), I suspect it'll be a good while yet before those laws are stricken from the books and a US-owned cruise ship docks in Havana or Santiago de Cuba.

[robcon]

60. Good f*ing riddance, despot.

n/t

[olddad56]

136. You sound like a republican

[mcg]

290. Many democrats feel that way, I do. He is a despot.

He's scum bag, and so was Che Guevara.

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Human_rights_record

'Thousands of political opponents to the Castro regime have been killed, primarily during the first decade of his leadership. Some Cubans labeled "counterrevolutionaries", "fascists", or "CIA operatives" were also imprisoned in poor conditions without trial. Military Units to Aid Production, or UMAPs, were labor camps established in 1965 to confine "social deviants" including homosexuals, Jehovah Witnesses to work "counter-revolutionary" influences out of certain segments of the population. The camps were closed in 1967 in response to international outcries. Professor Marifeli Pérez Stable, a Cuban immigrant and former Castro supporter has said that "There were thousands of executions, forty, fifty thousand political prisoners. The treatment of political prisoners, with what we today know about human rights and the international norms governing human rights ... it is legitimate to raise questions about possible crimes against humanity in Cuba."'

Religious beliefs

'In 1992, Castro agreed to loosen restrictions on religion'

which means that for decades he shitted on peoples' freedom of religion, and he didn't loosen these restrictions on religion.

From
http://www.commondreams.org/news2008/0219-05.htm

'With Castro's Departure, Cuba Should Seize Opportunity to Respect Basic Rights, Says Amnesty International

NEW YORK - February 19 - Amnesty International said today Cuba's new leadership should seize the opportunity to make fundamental reforms to guarantee basic rights for its citizens and urged Cuba to allow the United Nations and other independent human rights bodies to visit the country.

The organization said the reforms should begin with the unconditional release of all prisoners of conscience.'

From
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/Cuba

'Freedom of expression, association and movement continued to be severely restricted. At least 69 prisoners of conscience remained imprisoned for their political opinions. Political dissidents, independent journalists and human rights activists continued to be harassed, intimidated and detained, some without charge or trial. Cubans continued to feel the negative impact of the US embargo.'

[mia]

65. I can count on DU as the best for latest breaking news.

This Little Havana neighborhood will be waking up soon - better leave for work early.

[mac56]

67. I remember a Letterman line where he said

Chimpy was urging Castro to organize free and fair elections.

Castro replied, "You first."

[zanne]

74. HAH!

[tinymontgomery]

72. He resigned because knuklehead attacked Iraq

that made Castro rethink his position just like Libya did. Hail the great bush!

[From The Left]

80. Too Bad It Happened On Bush's Watch

I have no doubt now that Bush will take credit for Castro's departure.

[YOY]

94. Just like Reagan cashed in on the Soviet Union as it already was going south

Pity really.

[From The Left]

103. So True. Wingtards Still Credit St. Reagan for the Collapse of Commism

Ignoring the historical precursors to the end of European communism beginning in 1970's.

[underpants]

81. WE WIN!!!!

:patriot:

[fascisthunter]

97. "We Win"? Who is "we" and What Does "We" Win, underpants?

[underpants]

109. WE WIN!!!

:sarcasm:

all that energy and money and diversion and for what? Nothing. We win nothing. They win nothing it is just another day. No great difference in Castro being there, at this point, or not.

[fascisthunter]

111. lol.... so true, underpants

Growing up I thought much different than I do now. Man, have I learned a lot.

[EFerrari]

217. All I can think is, he did it. He didn't sell out Cuba to the US

like my own family's native El Salvador was sold out. He outlived most of his political opponents and he lived to mentor progressives in South America on how to do the same. What a remarkable person. A real leader. Not perfect by any means but a real leader.

/grammar

[TheCowsCameHome]

82. BREAKING: Bush orders Reagan exhumed to get tips on taking credit for resignation

Bulletins at once, now back to our regular BS.

[The Wizard]

83. The Republican slant

is that this shows how dangerous the world is and we need John McCain to guide us through these dangerous times. Everybody run and hide; the Cubans are coming. We'll be bombed with cigars, bananas, pineapples and sugar. Only John McCain can protect us from flying cigars and fruit. He'll get in a fighter jet and..........bomb Iran?
More of the same McCain and his straight talk express will finish the treasury looting the Bush/Cheney cartel started, waving the flag all the way into the abyss, kind of like Cody Jarret at the end of "White Heat." "Top of the world Ma."

[Tarc]

84. A shame. Hasta la victoria siempre, Fidel!

He was able to thumb his nose at 10 sitting American Presidents. Also, hopefully this will signal the end of the influence of the nutjob Cuban exile community. If there was ever a bigger bunch of entitlement whiners in history, I have no see it.

[Judi Lynn]

87. If they lose Fidel Castro, they got nada!They've been hating Fidel Castro too long to turn back now.

They truly have NOTHING else going on. NOTHING. They are professional Fidel Castro haters, and reality deniers.

In the States, they disdain being considered a "minority" group, according to Ninoska Perez Castellon, former spokesperson for the Cuban American National Foundation. They want people to realize they have nothing whatsoever in common with minorities.

Article on Cuban Americans position in relation to other American minorities, brought into focus with Elián, touches on the arrogance. Great last line:

Indeed, even some Republicans probably think the kid would be raised better in communist Latin America than in Cuban-American Miami.

http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/6.08/000424-elian2.html

Cuba has changed profoundly since the a-holes left. People were able to get an education, a job which lasted all year long, rather than the pathetic seasonal work they had under Batista and the others.

The hate industry in Miami is going to be rudderless without a target to focus on any longer. They can forget their fantasies about swarming back to Cuba and re-seizing it, to become once more, the large fish in the very tiny bowl. They are NOT welcome there.

[fascisthunter]

101. Don't Fret, Judi, they have Chavez Now

right wingers always find a leftist boogeyman somewhere...

[Judi Lynn]

104. Riiiight! And Evo Morales is on the deck behind him. They have been doing some preliminary

smearing of Rafael Correa, from Ecuador, as well! Even Lula. They'll be after Argentina's new President A.S.A.P. (You remember the right-wing military junta in Argentina arrested, imprisoned and tortured her husband years ago!)

Oh, yeah, they'll be smearing them until the entire world FINALLY wakes up, and no one is left to jump on the bandwagon for their hate radio hosts, their cable news propaganda spewers, and their twisted print "news" stories, and that could take thousands of years at this rate!

[fascisthunter]

112. Perception is Changing Judi.... Take Me for Instance

I once bought the garbage growing up. I know better now..... so does my brother and others we know. The right wing is losing and there is nothing they can do about it. If they do anything at this point it will blow back harder upon them. They have over-played their hand.

[Judi Lynn]

297. Really hope you're right. The success of this smoke screen concerning Cuba depends on getting

people to react emotionally, rather than actually starting to think things through, and looking for some answers!

Once that travel ban is lifted and large numbers of ordinary Americans get the chance to go to Cuba, it's going to be ALL OVER for the American hate Cuba industry, since they will be exposed but GOOD for the lies they have been wallowing in all these years.

Cubans have wanted Americans to come to Cuba for ages. When Americans do go there, they are deeply impressed by the Cubans, by their intelligence, friendliness, and awareness of the world around them.

If a lot of Americans finally get to see for themselves, that door to Cuba can never be closed again, and the hate merchants are going to strictly be out of bidness PERMANENTLY.

http://www.sabre.org.nyud.net:8090/archives/update98/cuba.gif

[harun]

106. A shame but it will show the world the will of the people of Cuba

is not to be exploited as a tool of Capitalist profits, regardless of who is leading the country.

[dipsydoodle]

131. That is a truly great picture

thanks for posting it.

[sandrakae]

91. SOME COUNTRIES HAVE ALL THE LUCK.!!!!

[BlooInBloo]

99. He retires undefeated by the US.

[Judi Lynn]

102. That includes unpoisoned, and un-exploded, no thanks to the C.I.A.!

He has been lucky he has had really good security all these years, saving him from being bombed only a few years ago, when Cuban "exile" Luis Posada Carriles and a few of his cohorts from Miami went to Panama with bomb materials and attempted to blow up an auditorium where he was to speak to a large crowd.

The Cuban security people learned of the plot, and alerted the police who located the bomb before it could go off. The Panamanian President, a friend of _{George Bush's,} Mireya Moscoso, pardoned these mass murderer-would-bes the day before she left office, and retired to Miami, herself. She had called ahead to Miami to inform them the assassins had been pardoned.



Mireya Moscoso is sitting next to Mrs. _Bush.

[bpeale]

108. Bush says: "This will end staged elections"

well how about ending them here! what an asshole.

Castro will be well-remembered in Cuba. he did much good for his people inspite of the u.s. blockade. Best doctors in the world there. And free healthcare too. Perhaps we should consult him on how to setup free healthcare? hmmm.

[loudsue]

113. Castro kicked the MAFIA out of Cuba, and the MAFIA is still the entity that

wants back in. Make no mistake....it was and still is organized crime that pulls the strings in this country, and especially in Miami/Little Havana. The republicans have institutionalized the mafia, and have adopted their ways all across the country, and indeed, the world.

Castro kicked the mafia OUT, and they're still pissed about it.

[KansDem]

190. I hear you!

I've often wondered what would happen with Castro gone. Depending on who succeeds him, watch for the mob to try to get back in Cuba with its gambling, drugs, and prostitution.

[The Onyx Key]

114. Well, you can only imprison so many journalists....

and people with opposing points of view before you get bored with it. And pushing the myth of a happy, helathy country can be really tiring.

*sigh* Ah, well. Here's hoping his death is imminent and painful! :beer:

[GirlinContempt]

156. Ever BEEN to Cuba?

Man, that is a really dickish post.

[Mik T]

266. Why inprison them when you can blow them up?

Like the Bush administration did when it bombed the Al Jezeera building in Iraq.

[Scurrilous]

115. Bush Greets Castro Resignation

<snip>

"President Bush said Tuesday that the resignation of Fidel Castro “ought to be a period of democratic transition” for Cuba, and said the country must hold free and fair elections to pick a successor after half a century of Communist rule.

“And I mean free and I mean fair,” Mr. Bush added, “not these kind of staged elections that the Castro brothers try to foist off as true democracy.”

The president spoke during a joint news conference with President Paul Kagame of Rwanda, after the two signed a treaty intended to open up trade between the two countries."

<snip>

"The question really should be what does this mean for the people in Cuba?” Mr. Bush said during the news conference, in response to a question about what Mr. Castro’s resignation would mean for United States-Cuban relations.

"They’re the ones who suffered under Fidel Castro,” he said. “They’re the ones who were put in prison because of their beliefs. They’re the ones who have been denied a right to live in a free society. So I view this as a period of transition and it should be the beginning of a democratic transition in Cuba."

Mr. Bush has met frequently with the families of political prisoners in Cuba, and he said those prisoners must be freed as a first step toward democracy. He went on to say that some people might argue this is a time for ensuring stability in Cuba.

"In the meantime," he said, "political prisoners will rot in prison and the human condition will remain pathetic in many cases."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/world/americas/20rwanda.html

[dipsydoodle]

129. Pot calling the kettle....................

.

[SpikeTss]

178. Bush and his henchmen belong to The Hague. Nowhere else

That Bush has the nerve to lecture about democracy is astonishing.

Wile Fidel Castro has built up a country and made it a role model in many aspects, Bush

- murdered 1.3 million Iraqis
- murdered thousands of Afghans
- destroyed Iraq and caused gigantic damage to Iraq without even thinking about paying reparations
- prevented democratic elections in Afghanistan
- prevented democratic elections in Iraq
- punished Palestinians for holding free elections and voting for the 'wrong' party

Bush really is a fascist, including the absurd rhetoric other fascists like Mussolini or Stalin propagated.

[deaniac21]

302. The Hague is a city in the Netherlands.

[Broadslidin]

134. With recent Cuban Oil Field find, intrepid C.I.A. Eagerly Plans Bloody Coup.....

along with J.P. Morgan Chase lusting to
re-open their "Private Bank" mail drop branch office
in Havana,
right next door to the newly refurbished
gambling casino and brothel...!

:nuke: :patriot: :nuke:

[AlphaCentauri]

148. A new excuse to feed the wild hogs with taxpayers money

TV Marti and Radio Marti

[bluestateguy]

161. When will elections be held?

Just wondering.

[AlphaCentauri]

182. last month

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x1894

[deaniac21]

233. It sounds as if Castro's medical condition has stabilized.

[otherlander]

238. One less homophobe with power in the world.

[Hannah Bell]

243. Y si caigo

¿qué es la vida?
Por perdida
ya la di,
cuando el yugo
del esclavo,
como un bravo,
sacudí.

[superconnected]

246. Good riddence to another dictator.

[GirlinContempt]

252. yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

[The Doctor.]

254. Ailing Castro steps down as Cuba’s president

Source: MSNBC News Service

Revolutionary leader had ruled for 49 years; U.S. won't lift sanctions soon

MSNBC News Services
updated 13 minutes ago
HAVANA - Fidel Castro, ailing and 81, announced Tuesday he was resigning as Cuba’s president, ending a half-century of autocratic rule which made him a communist icon and a relentless opponent of U.S. policy around the globe.

The end of Castro’s rule — the longest in the world for a head of government — frees his 76-year-old brother Raul Castro to implement reforms he has hinted at since taking over as acting president when Fidel fell ill in July 2006.

President Bush said he hopes the resignation signals the beginning of a democratic transition, though he doubts that would come about under the rule of another Castro. The State Department denigrated the change as a “transfer of authority and power from dictator to dictator light.”

Castro temporarily ceded his powers to his brother on July 31, 2006, when he announced that he had undergone intestinal surgery. Since then, he has not been seen in public, appearing only sporadically in official photographs and videotapes and publishing dense essays about mostly international themes as his younger brother consolidated his rule.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23229795

---

Will Raul institute changes? What happens now?

[ixion]

255. Raul is 76 -- 76 -- that means he won't be president long

what happens after that? :shrug:

[hyphenate]

257. Depends on where Raul

decides to lead the country. Hopefully it won't be down the GWB highway.

[sabbat hunter]

259. Do Fidel or

Raul have any kids that they will pass power onto after they are gone?

[RaleighNCDUer]

260. It's a dictatorship, not a monarchy.

Fidel could get away with awarding it to his brother, because his brother has been there with him since the beginning. It would be an offense to the revolution to pass it on to a son or daughter.

In a very few years, Raul will pass the leadership on the some 50 or 60 something bureaucrat, and then they will probably get relatively fair elections - as long as we don't mess with them.

EDIT:

Fidel does have a daughter, IIRC - living in NYC, last I heard. Don't expect they'll hand the party over to her.

[sabbat hunter]

289. syria

wasnt a monarchy, yet son followed father as "president". same in NK

[RaleighNCDUer]

295. Syria is also a Baathist fascist state, not a 'People's Republic'.

Different dynamic at work there.

[sabbat hunter]

310. what about

the "peoples republic" of NK?

[RaleighNCDUer]

311. Again, a different dynamic. NK was never a real communist state,

it was a dictatorship of one man who professed to communism in word but never in deed. When the Great Leader lives in unimaginable wealth and his people starve, it is NOT communism, no matter how much lip service they give to it.

But I guess if you're an old time commie hater they all look alike.

[sabbat hunter]

312. actually

I am not a commie hater. I am a dictatorship hater.

NK, Syria, Cuba, China. For all intents and purposes are all dictatorships. Cuba might claim to have elections, but when those running can only come from one party, or there is only one legal party (china) or there is a body that must approve all candidates (iran)you basically have a dictatorship.

Iran has a religious dictatorship. The current president of Iran is little more than a puppet for the Mullahs, what he says, comes from them.

Hitler and Napoleon had plebiscites, even parliaments, but they were still dictators.

Fidel Castro passed power from himself to his brother. Officially it has to be "approved" but does anyone doubt for a minute that it will be?

[onehandle]

261. Long enough to keep Communism from falling during chimpy's reign.

Sorry, Karl. No Reaganizing of Bush.

[Rhiannon12866]

262. That was my first thought. If Castro insists in keeping it in the family,

doesn't he have any kids that he trusts, rather than a brother who is almost as old as he is?:shrug:

[hyphenate]

256. Don't know

But they could wind up a better alternative than living in the United States under GWB. They have socialized medicine there, which won't happen here for a very, very long time.

[The Doctor.]

258. Lobbyists have been wooing Cuban leaders for years...

I'm sure Raul is no exception.

[ohio2007]

271. He's dead Jim

How long til Raul makes the official that Fidel will have the plug pulled.

SOmetime in April ?

[cascadiance]

280. Florida congress critter looks to file murder chargers against Castro...

This looks like it just came off the AP wire an hour ago or so:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hal9VUbBbjYhxwHzjMCyoKvEigHAD8UTLKNG0

Murder Charges Sought for Castro

By LARA JAKES JORDAN – 1 hour ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Florida congresswoman asked the Justice Department on Tuesday to bring charges against resigning Cuban leader Fidel Castro for the deaths of four U.S. rescue workers who were killed while looking for Cuban migrants stranded at sea.

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla., said earlier attempts to prosecute Castro in the 1996 downing of a humanitarian flight off the Cuban coast might not have been successful because of his role as head of state.

With Castro's announced plan to resign, Ros-Lehtinen said, "there should no longer be any diplomatic impediments to bringing Fidel Castro to justice" for a Cuban fighter jet attack on the private aircraft on a mission for Brothers to the Rescue.

The congresswoman's suggestions were outlined in a letter to Attorney General Michael Mukasey.

Justice Department spokesman Peter Carr said the letter was being reviewed and declined further comment.

The United States has no active extradition process with Cuba.
...

[Canuckistanian]

286. Not exactly unexpected

In fact, it's long overdue for a man with such serious health problems.

But still, it's the end of an era.

I have a special affininity for Fidel because when he was storming Havana, I was being born.

The Batista regime was just ASKING for revoultion with their excesses. So, he got what was coming to him.

Viva Fidel!

[JVS]

298. A job well done!

:toast: