Protesters start fire at U.S. embassy in Belgrade

[maddezmom]

Source: Reuters

BELGRADE (Reuters) - Protesters started a fire in the U.S. embassy in Belgrade on Thursday after breaking in to protest at U.S. support for Kosovo's independence.


The embassy was closed. Police were not protecting the building. Doors were ripped off, set on fire and wedged in the embassy windows. Black smoke billowed out of the building.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080221/ts_nm/kosovo_serbia_embassy_dc_3

[rockymountaindem]

1. Not a good sign for embassy security around the world

How the hell did they get *into* the embassy?

[saigon68]

63. They are still angry at Clinton (Bill)

[superkia]

70. Heres a link to a stort I read the other day about some of that.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8055

Some members of the Kosovo Liberation Army , which has financed its war effort through the sale of heroin, were trained in terrorist camps run by international fugitive Osama bin Laden -- who is wanted in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa that killed 224 persons, including 12 Americans.

The KLA members, embraced by the Clinton administration in NATO's 41-day bombing campaign to bring Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to the bargaining table, were trained in secret camps in Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina and elsewhere, according to newly obtained intelligence reports.

The reports also show that the KLA has enlisted Islamic terrorists -- members of the Mujahideen --as soldiers in its ongoing conflict against Serbia, and that many already have been smuggled into Kosovo to join the fight.



If the machine keeps trying to take control of every country and institute their own corrupt puppets, there will eventually be world wide chaos caused by our own system and their elite friends agenda. I just wonder if the soldiers of the world will fight for the corrupt for personal profit or will they stand with their own people?

[saigon68]

82. Its a den of thieves

More here

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8055

Hashim Thaci, chairman of the Democratic Party of Kosovo (PDK), Prime Minister of the Kosovo provisional government, former KLA leader and known criminal) The PDK, led by Hashim Thaci, former Kosovan Liberation Army commander, took control of many municipalities after the war. The party has close links with organized crime in the province. (The Observer, 29 October 2000)

Mr. Thaci, nicknamed "the Snake" during his KLA days, is a sharp-suited 32-year-old former rebel commander with poor oratory skills, links to organized crime and a determination to preserve relations between his party and the United States (The Scotsman, 20 October 2000)


I know a terrorist when I see one and these men are terrorists," (US Special Envoy and Ambassador Robert Gelbard) "The KLA is tied in with every known Middle and Far Eastern drug cartel. Interpol, Europol, and nearly every European intelligence and counter-narcotics agency has files open on drug syndicates that lead right to the KLA,..." (Michael Levine former official of the US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA))

[Megahurtz]

99. Yes they are. n/t

[knitter4democracy]

123. He did bomb their churches on Orthodox Easter.

No one's forgetting or letting that go from what I hear in Orthodox circles.

[FalconsRule]

136. And how many innocent

Serb civilians did we kill during the US-led bombing of Serbia?

[Megahurtz]

140. Most Americans Are

fucking clueless about the truth about Serbia.

[knitter4democracy]

144. I heard that many were killed.

I haven't heard numbers, of if I did, I can't remember. I remember our priest and our metropolitan being just sick about the whole thing, though.

[Megahurtz]

141. Clinton should have kept his nose out of it. n/t

[bdamomma]

66. those protestors just smashed there way through it, crashing

a wooden board through the window.

[OhioChick]

2. Everyone Just loves the US These Days. n/t

[Mike Daniels]

9. Well, I'd say Kosovo is feeling pretty sunny towards us

I would anticipate that the protestors are going to storm the embassies of every other country that either has or is set to support Kosovo's independence. From the figures another poster gave it seems to be numbering around 51 countries at this point.

So little time, so much storming to conduct.

[Ilsa]

18. I think the anger is towards any nation that endorsed the Kosovo declaration.

I think I heard that Spain abstained. Not sure about other european nations.

[Eurobabe]

24. Here is the lastest list of countries that have recognized Kosov

Countries that have recognized
or Announced the recognition of Republic of Kosova
Recognized by 22 out of 192 United Nations members


Costa Rica
United States
France
United Kingdom
Afghanistan
Albania
Turkey
Australia
Senegal
Norway
Malaysia
Germany
Latvia
Denmark
Luxembourg
Estonia
Italy
Belgium
Finland
Lithuania
Austria
Slovenia

Countries that will recognize Kosovo
28 out of the remaining 170 United Nation members are ready to recognize Republic of Kosovo

Bulgaria
Canada
Cote d'Ivoire
Croatia
Czech Republic
Fiji
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Israel
Japan
Kuwait
Macedonia
Malta
Mauritania
Monaco
Montenegro
Morocco
Netherlands
Pakistan
Poland
Portugal
Saudi Arabia
Sweden
Switzerland
Tonga
Tunisia
Tuvalu

[Mike Daniels]

43. Seem's like a good number of neighboring countries are recognizing Kosovo

Since most countries are hardly following the US's lead on foreign affairs at this time in history I'd presume that these other countries are marked for retaliation as well?

[Ilsa]

48. Thanks! And Russia will not recognize K. More serbian police are

working to secure the embassy. Thank goodness they are taking action. Let's hope it remains peaceful.

[IsItJustMe]

114. The countries that won't recognize Kosovo, that I know of:

Russia
Romania
Greece
Cyprus
China
Venezuela

[superkia]

72. I think they are angry with the U.S. because of Bill Clinotn and NATO...

back in 1999?

[OhioChick]

88. That's My Take, as Well. n/t

[bdamomma]

67. we just can't keep our noses out of anything huh?

[Mike Daniels]

81. Like we're the only country that recognized Kosovo

Do you take the same "keep your nose out" attitude to every other country that has or is planning on recognizing Kosovo?

[spotbird]

3. The election can't come soon enough.

Does anyone know if the embassy is occupied?

[Ilsa]

51. It was not occupied at the time, per MSNBC. May have a contingent of

MArines there, butnot enough to handle this mob if violence becomes physical, not just against property.

[FalconsRule]

4. What do we expect?

We bomb their country, then break it up. I'd burn stuff too.

[LanternWaste]

5. I was under the impression that

I was under the impression that there has been a fervent tendency towards self-rule in the area-- even when Tito was President and that the movement towards smaller Balkan states becoming independent were not either a cause nor an effect of U.S. policies... :shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

6. Yeah, as if their demigogue Milosevic wasn't slaughtering thousands of people

in Kosovo. I guess we shoulda just sat there :sarcasm:

[FalconsRule]

8. Hmmm... you have a link

that shows that the Serbs slaughtered thousands of people in Kosovo?

Gee, if sitting there while HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS got slaughtered in Rwanda, Burundi, the Sudan (and now maybe Kenya) was (is) good enough for us, why NOT Kosovo? Could it be because the Kosovars are European? Nah, that can't be it at all.

[saigon68]

10. Yes they do have pale complexions

Nothing racial to see here

Move along

[Mike Daniels]

12. Funny that I don't see any real effort by any other countries in those other areas either

[havocmom]

15. Known history of recent years. Mass graves found. Hello

Hell, they even made a movie about it so people who haven't read newspapers since the 60s probably know about it. But if it's links you want and you need help with google: put this in the search field:
Milosevic and Serbs kill thousands

[FalconsRule]

17. You're confusing

Bosnia with Kosovo. Happens all the time.

[havocmom]

26. Ok, guilty as charged

I think

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

60. Unfortunately, there were attrocities and war crimes committed by both sides

Bosnian Moslems did their share of beheadings and slaughter of civilians and defenseless prisoners as well.

[rockymountaindem]

25. Do your own research

*Everybody* knows the Serbian army massacred thousands of people. All you have to do is look.

But since you asked:

"Kosovar Albanians have reported mass executions and mass graves at about 500 sites in the province. As of early November 1999, the ICTY has conducted site investigations at about 200 of these and has confirmed finding bodies at over 160 of the sites. Numerous accounts indicate that Serbian forces took steps to destroy forensic evidence of their crimes. This included execution methods that would allow the Serbs to claim their victims were collateral casualties of military operations, and burning or otherwise disposing of bodies. Over 2,100 bodies have been found by the ICTY among the some 200 atrocity sites that have been field investigated so far. However, the total number of bodies reported to the ICTY at over 500 gravesites is more than 11,000. If the pattern established among these 200 sites holds for all of the remaining sites--claimed by all sources--that have yet to be field investigated, we would expect the total number of bodies to be found at the known gravesites to be over 6,000. To this total must be added three important categories of victims: (1) those buried in mass graves whose locations are unknown, (2) what the ICTY reports is a significant number of sites where the precise number of bodies cannot be counted, and (3) victims whose bodies were burned or destroyed by Serbian forces. Press reporting and eyewitness accounts provide credible details of a program of destruction of evidence by Serbian forces throughout Kosovo and even in Serbia proper. The number of victims whose bodies have been burned or destroyed may never be known, but enough evidence has emerged to conclude that probably around 10,000 Kosovar Albanians were killed by Serbian forces.

As a result of Serbian efforts to expel the ethnic Albanian majority from Kosovo, almost one million Kosovar Albanians left the province after Serbian forces launched their first security crackdown in March 1998, with most having fled after March 1999. Based on the scope and intensity of Serbian activities throughout the province, as many as 500,000 additional Kosovars appear to have been internally displaced. In sum, about 1.5 million Kosovar Albanians (at least 90 percent of the estimated 1998 Kosovar Albanian population of the province) were forcibly expelled from their homes. Virtually all Kosovar Albanians who desired to return to Kosovo have done so at this time.

Thousands of homes in at least 1,200 cities, towns, and villages were damaged or destroyed. Victims report that Serbian forces harassed them with forced extortion and beatings, and that some were strafed by Serbian aircraft. Reports of organized rape of ethnic Albanian women by Serbian security forces during the conflict continue to be received. According to the victims, Serbian forces conducted systematic rapes in Djakovica, and at the Karagac and Metohia hotels in Pec."

That's from the US State Department at http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/kosovoii/over.html

Furthermore, your assertion that we should have done nothing in order to be consistent with our past inaction in Rwanda is troubling. Are you saying we shouldn't learn from our mistakes and as a result let more people die? That sounds like a pretty bad position to take. Maybe you should elaborate on it.

[FalconsRule]

33. The stories scores of thousands

Kosovar deaths PRIOR to actual combat have been debunked.

http://www.snd-us.com/Liberty/st_1758.htm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D00E1DC1E3AF932A25752C1A96F958260
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/pbrooke/p&t/Balkans/dmonkosovo/199912

"Furthermore, your assertion that we should have done nothing in order to be consistent with our past inaction in Rwanda is troubling. Are you saying we shouldn't learn from our mistakes and as a result let more people die? That sounds like a pretty bad position to take. Maybe you should elaborate on it."

No, I'm saying we saved Europeans, but we let, and are still letting, Africans die by the hundreds of thousands. By your logic, we learned form our mistakes in Africa long enough to help the Kosovars, but then promptly forgot those lessons once the Europeans were saved.

[Megahurtz]

103. Oh sure, trust the U.S. State Department to tell the truth.

:eyes: Seriously have more Kool-Aid.

[rockymountaindem]

106. Then take the word of the ICTY

Check on pages five and six.

http://shr.aaas.org/kosovo/icty_report.pdf

Also, the State Department report was published under the Clinton administration, so if you're trying to impugn them by association with the Bush administration, you can't.

[Megahurtz]

107. That's The Point

it was published under the Clinton Administration. They made mistakes about Serbia. They should have kept their noses out of it.

[rockymountaindem]

108. We should have given Milosevic a free hand in Serbia?

Got any more bright ideas? I guess you would rather let him create a giant refugee crisis and kill even more people without compunction. I don't know how people can complain that we did nothing in Rwanda and then say that we should have stayed out of Serbia/Kosovo. If it weren't for NATO, Kosovo would have been the next Rwanda.

Also, care to address the Commission's report? That 10,000 fatalities would have been the tip of the iceberg if we'd let Milosovic do whatever he wanted. Furthermore, frustrating his designs in Kosovo and unveiling him as a weak tinpot criminal led to Milosovic's ultimate downfall *and* indictment for war crimes. That's a benefit in and of itself.

[Megahurtz]

111. We should have let the Serbians keep their country.

Milosevic, or not.

[FalconsRule]

137. Did you

learn anything? Or going to stick with Cohen's and Albright's lies?

[jeff30997]

78. Hmmm... you have a link

that shows that HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS got slaughtered in Rwanda, Burundi ? And also a link to prove that the Nazis killed millions of jews ? Gee! :sarcasm:

[seemslikeadream]

86. 5 MILLION IN CONGO

[IsItJustMe]

115. You don't remember history? You ask for a link on that? WTF?

[Hannah Bell]

92. There was no "slaughter".

The supposed mass graves, etc. turned out to be fictional.

Much like the WMDs, the babies thrown out of incubators, etc.

[Megahurtz]

101. You Don't Have Any Facts.

You've been drinking Kool-Aid.

[Eurobabe]

7. Oh, I suppose you supported the actions of Milosevic?

Good god, the level of stupidity on this Democratic website these days is maddening. Do you even know anything about what happened in Kosovo in the late 90s?

I highly doubt it.

As of today 18 nations have recognized the Independence of Kosovo and another 33 are set to recognize them soon.

[FalconsRule]

11. Yeah, actually

I was on the EUCOM staff that planned the NATO involvement in Kosovo. I happen to know a little bit about it.

I was also on the EUCOM staff that was told to stand down planning efforts for the REAL slaughter in Africa. Sort of like our uninvolvement in the Sudan and Kenya now.

[Eurobabe]

16. My questions was did you support Milosevic's slaughter

of the Kosovar people? Are you okay with the fact that he killed thousands of people?

[FalconsRule]

19. My answer is:

of course not. My question to you is, do you realize that the Serbs did not kill thousands of Kosovars?

[Eurobabe]

27. Oh please, what fucking planet are you on?

Cohen Fears 100,000 Kosovo Men Killed by Serbs

Cohen and Shelton,AP
Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Henry Shelton, left, and Secretary of Defense William Cohen on CBS's "Face the Nation." (AP)
By Tom Doggett
Reuters
Sunday, May 16, 1999; 2:56 p.m. EDT

Up to 100,000 ethnic Albanian men in Kosovo of fighting age have vanished and may have been killed by Serbian forces, Defense Secretary William Cohen said on Sunday.

"We've now seen about 100,000 military-aged men missing. . . . They may have been murdered," Cohen said on the CBS news program "Face the Nation."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/stories/cohen051699.htm

[YOY]

32. The planet of the Balkan Ethnic Superiorists...I've been there!

Because everyone on that planet knows that their particular ethnic group never did anything to no one never and they are always the victims of the other guys!

I kakvo chudesno mjste e...za hora sus laini vmesto mozutsi!

[FalconsRule]

36. The Serbs

were brutal and ruthless...what they did to the Bosniacs and the Kosovars and Croats was unforgivable. That said, we exaggerated the number of deaths of the Kosovars in order to go to war against Serbia. This was after we ignored hundreds of thousands of dead in Africa.

[YOY]

39. Vsichki poluchat mraza na drugite za nishto i nikoga ne pravat nishto sebe si...

Pulnie glupesti...i znaesh.

Njma nevinovitsi tuka. Vsichki sa svoi zhertvi i zhertvite na historia...

Nikogo njama da mi kaza che hjkoi vuv eta shibena situatsia e "po-prav" ot drugite...

[FalconsRule]

41. No Hablo

[YOY]

42. Exactly

n/t

[Igel]

132. Serbian or Albanian would have been more appropriate.

However, I agree with you, misspellings aside.

I'm not sure that anybody's going to be able to tell me that anybody in this f**ked up situation is more right than the other, and there are no innocents here.

I followed the run-up to the anti-Serb campaign, and what the Serbian papers were reporting may be true or it may be false (if false, no more false than what the Kosovars got the Western press to print), but what was in the Serb papers didn't make it to the Western press.

[YOY]

134. It's going to have mispellings...it's supposed to be in cyrillic.

Now the grammar errors...for what it is worth...I need to work on those but the family is not correcting me.

[harun]

52. This discussion isn't about Africa (n/t)

[martymar64]

93. In the Balkans history runs deep.

If you go a few years back, it was the Croats and the Bosnians that collaborated with the Nazis and slaughtered Serbs. Whether it happened last week or a hundred years ago means nothing, murder is murder. It's been back and forth like that since the 1300's when the Turks invaded and carved that chunk off the Byzantine empire.
Whether we should try to intervene to prevent genocide is a sticky issue. One feels a moral obligation to but the US has been very selective towards it. Why didn't the rest of Europe intervene instead? I don't have any answers on this question.

[Mike Daniels]

110. Europe has to take a fall on this just as well

Just because the US doesn't do something doesn't mean that other countries can't pick up the ball.

I love the talk of European superiority over the US that ignores the fact that the various countries in that land mass have left just as many if not more countries to rot over the course of history.

[Igel]

133. It pays to remember that the Kosovar Albanians

also sided with the Nazis against the Orthodox Slavs.

Moreover, they were also much closer to the Turks during the Ottoman occupation than to the Serbs.

[Megahurtz]

142. THANK YOU! n/t

[Eurobabe]

44. It's not my ethnic group, I am American

but live in Europe and the news we get over here is a HELL of alot more rational and real than what you read.

[YOY]

47. Oh I know that quite well...My comment was not aimed at you negatively!

I miss the REAL news.

I'd love to be where you are right now. (Don't take that the wierd way!)

[FalconsRule]

34. Cohen was wrong

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/pbrooke/p&t/Balkans/dmonkosovo/199912

[SpikeTss]

83. Sorry, but this is a ridiculous article

with totally exaggerated and wrong numbers.

You really shouldn't post articles which have been proven wrong.
Instead read this article, which is more up to date and unbiased:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=8613

Operation Allied Force was not a moral venture. It was, however, carried out in the name of an humanitarian action on behalf of the Kosovo Albanians, and it won support in the NATO-bloc countries by a widespread belief in the authenticity of its moral goals. But such goals are contradicted by the nature of states and the kinds of forces that determine state policy; by the compelling evidence of other, non-humanitarian ends shaping NATO policy; by the character of the leadership of the dominant NATO powers; and by the actual results of the war.

...

NATO's "humanitarian war" against Yugoslavia was damaging to human rights, human welfare, and most of the objectives claimed by the war-makers. The 78-day bombing campaign greatly intensified an already ugly civil war that had produced between 1,800 and 2,000 dead on all sides--most of them ethnic Albanians—prior to the start of the bombing (Dientsbier, 2000a: Par. 42; Chomsky, 2000: 104). This war had been largely brought under control by an agreement signed by the six member Contact Group and Belgrade in October, 1998, thus allowing many of the 300,000 refugees from the first round of fighting to return home (OSCE, 1999a). This relatively stable situation held throughout the fall and winter months through the end of the Rambouillet process (March 18, 1999), the OSCE's withdrawal of its Kosovo Verification Mission, and the onset of NATO's war.

[ronnie624]

117. A very interesting essay, well worth reading. Thanks. n/t

[Megahurtz]

105. William Cohen huh?

:eyes: Well that figures. It's not like he has an agenda or anything. :sarcasm:

[reorg]

122. I don't believe this

That someone would dig out this article now and quote it here as "proof" for thousands of Albanians being murdered prior to the NATO bombings

- when even the article itself and Cohen don't say this at all (it is about a suspicion that "they may have been murdered")
- when it was obvious to even moderately informed newspaper readers at the time (8.5 years ago) that this kind of talk was just a cheap propaganda stunt
- when the propaganda was toned down immediately following the NATO invasion, down to 11000 missing and "suspected" killed
- and official investigations came to the conclusion that even this number was way off the mark, surprise, surprise.

"... The Foundation for Humanitarian Law led by Nata_a Kandi_, much beloved and much bankrolled by Western governments and non-governmental organizations, runs a project seeking to establish the number of dead and missing in Kosovo. According to an article in the Croatian magazine, Globus, "The project has documented 9,702 people dead or missing during the war in Kosovo from 1998 to 2000. Of this number, as things stand now, 4,903 killed and missing are Albanians and 2,322 are Serbs, with the rest either belonging to other nationalities or their ethnic identity remaining uncertain." One should add also that these numbers say nothing about how people were killed, whether in combat or otherwise, and by whom. And there's no clarification as to how many were killed by NATO bombs. ..."

http://counterpunch.com/szamuely02152008.html


The most frightening thing is: you are probably not alone on your planet ...

[High Plains]

50. That shit has been debunked upthread, but keep spreading your propaganda.

Kosovar nationalism is just as ugly as any other.

[Marrah_G]

30. I see you missed a few pages of history-

:eyes:

[FalconsRule]

129. I think subsequent posts

show that you need to reedumicate yourself...

[TheLastMohican]

118. Their behaviour is not constructive

I would organise an armed guerilla warfare against KLA and NATO in Kosovo, so backing up that drug-traficking region would cost as much as securing Iraq.
Most NATO "allies" will pull out as soon as first bullets start flying.

[Ilsa]

13. The estimate is about 750,000 protesters now.

The good news is that they had anticipated some problems, so employees were not there, and the ambassador was not in residence.

[NMDemDist2]

14. this can't make it to the Greatest??

our embassy is overrun and DUers only care about McShame

we Amerikens really really need to broaden our horizons..

:banghead:

[Ivote]

22. Contingent of US MARINES in the building

Could be a couple of dozen

A battalion is in the area as per Wesley Clark

[Ilsa]

20. Only K&R #3. This is really a big deal. It will strain relations with Putin

also.

[no_hypocrisy]

21. Orders for flags for the "new" country of Kosovo came into my friend's

factory that manufactures flags -- four days ago.

They didn't waste any time, did they?

[Eurobabe]

28. Why should they have put it off?

What do you have against them being independent? I cannot believe the posts I am reading on DU about this situation. Un flippin' real.

:eyes:

[High Plains]

45. Well, there's this general principle about not breaking up states...

If we're going to abandon that, I can hardly wait to visit the Basque Republic, independent Wales, or the New Hampshire Free State.

[Eurobabe]

53. Bring it on!

[martymar64]

94. Don't forget Cascadia, California and Texas!

I've lived in all three places and each could be an awesome country all on its own. Fuck the Federal system, it's outlived it's usefulness here.

[reorg]

128. I am with you on this

Cannot believe what I'm reading here, too. A number of posters do not seem to have the first clue about the situation, it is amazing.

[Ilsa]

23. Wes Clark is on MSNBC. He was there as NATO Supreme Allied Cmdr.

He is saying that (ugh) the Serbs living in Kosovo will probably need to be protected from the Albanians there. He doesn't anticipate a Serbian invasion of Kosovo.

[NCarolinawoman]

35. I was glad to hear him. Hopefully he will be on again.

Or will MSNBC think the "friggin horse-race" is more important? :grr:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

38. He said the Serbs have colonized the Muslims in Kosovo

I'm not an expert on that region, but who are the real colonizers? Weren't the Ottomans the original colonizers? Aren't the Muslims in that region the descendants of colonials? Isn't Kosovo the legacy of colonization? How can we condemn the French born in Algeria and there for several generations who, as a last resort in that war wanted to carve out a portion of Algeria to live in and create an independant state, but then not condemn the vestiges of colonialism in Kosovo? Maybe I'm quite wrong on this but it seems to me a double standard. And I thought that the Muslims used to be the minority in Kosovo but now outnumber the Serbs (many of whom left). I love Wes Clark but I'm not sure he's giving us the complete picture. He seems to be very anti-Russian, saying that they are just exploiting an opportunity to exercise influence in that part of the world. But I think it's more complex than that. I think the Russians feel kinship with fellow Slavs in Serbia, much like Americans felt a kinship with England and came to her defense in two world wars.

[Ilsa]

46. It isn't an easy call. I find it difficult to support a group breaking

off from a nation because they are primarily of a different religion and culture ("Can't we all just get along?"). But it looks like the Serbs made economic life such a hardship (60% unemployment, while the SSerbs have good international relations) that the kosovars want independence to finally start over. In that sense, I can support it, rather than going back to the situation they had a few decades ago.

Tough one, huh? As one minister (Gomes) has written, it isn't about trying to discern right from wrong, but right for the wrong reasons, and wrong for the right reasons, and shades of right and wrong as choices.

My hope is that there is no violence against people there.

[Igel]

135. Not an easy call.

"Weren't the Ottomans the original colonizers?"

Not by a long shot.

"Aren't the Muslims in that region the descendants of colonials?"

Not mostly. Some are, often with Turkish surnames. Many Slavs converted in Bosnia, and the Albanians--sort of a historical victim in the area--mostly converted. Being Muslim in a Muslim state gives you all sorts of advantages that we don't like to talk about.

"Isn't Kosovo the legacy of colonization?"

To some extent.

"And I thought that the Muslims used to be the minority in Kosovo but now outnumber the Serbs (many of whom left)."

Probably true, but not an uncontroversial statement.

Here's what I think is the case, unreferenced, and probably with mistakes. (full disclosure: I'm a linguist who does Slavic languages, not a Balkanist or historian.)

Go back to 600 BC. You have Phrygians and Thracians where Yugoslavia and Albania are. Languages mostly unknown. Greeks moved in a few centuries later. By the time the Romans got there the Balkans were mostly Greek speaking with isolated bits of other pre-Greek languages around. The Romans didn't alter the situation much, but areas closer to Italy--Croatia, Albania, etc.--got a layer of Latin-speakers on top. "Latin-speakers" usually meant soldiers, traders, and, after the soldiers retired, retired soldiers. But the area was still mostly Greek speaking. Some Greeks had moved in, but mostly it was the native population that had just gone bilingual, if not monolingual, probably with the wealthier classes more Greek than the grunt laborers.

However, up in the hills there were Albanians, presumably the continuation of Phrygian, but that's an inference. They speak a language akin to Russian and Greek and Latin, but it's undergone so many changes that this wasn't an obvious conclusion until over a century after the relationship of Latin, German, Sanskrit, and Greek was nailed. A *lot* of those changes happened in post-Roman times, so that borrowings from Latin are often recognizable only with great effort. (Armenian was the other difficult language to deal with, for similar reasons--isolation up in the hills led to some unexpected changes).

In 500 AD--give it a year for the sake of argument--the Slavs moved in. They'd been infiltrating, and finally had a decent sized number of people in the area. They even overran most of Greece proper, and got to some of the islands. (Greeks hate to admit this for all sorts of nationalistic reasons, but it's not like there was a fad among Greeks to rename their villages with Slavic names; it certainly didn't help the Byzantines efforts against the Persians, and, later, against the Arabs.) The Romanians also had a rough go of it, with a large number of Slavs in the area. The Slavs didn't get up into the western hills on the peninsula--they mostly came in from the N through where Hungary is and along the Black Sea, and then turned west, so the western periphery of the Balkans was where they petered out. (There was another push in the West, down through Slovenia, but it ran into Serbs and didn't get all that far.) Greek "won" in Greece, mostly; Romanian managed to stay a going enterprise. Albanian wasn't threatened, really. Slavic won everywhere else.

Kosovo was almost certainly majority Slav in 1500. Then again, it was also soon under Ottoman control, and that favored Muslims in land acquisition, in business, in courts, in family size (since often Xian boys were put in the Ottoman military, never to return, and so their families lost an heir to maintain the family line and it meant the Slavic communities had excess women to be married to Muslims, expanding *their* family lines). However, no census from then is trustworthy. The consensus I was told existed was that any Albanian community in the area was small, and was reinforced by high fertility among Albanians, hindrances to increases in the Slavic population, and immigration from Albania. I suppose dialect studies might show something interesting as to where Kosovar Albanian's linguistic allegiance is.

If it's any help, the pro-Kosovo stuff I've read seems to make it clear that they believe that they've always been a majority in Kosovo. This serves a nice political goal, but the archeology and evidence cited is usually pretty thin and smacks of other attempts to create faux "indigeneity" to buttress arguments for claims of victimization and for self-determination.

In 1918 or thereabouts there was a census taken for drawing up boundaries being imposed on the area. It shows a Slavic majority in Kosovo. This is contested as reflecting more the Serbian census-takers' biases and political goals, and less an actual enumeration of people. Perhaps. Neither side is free of biases and the capacity to skew,twist, and stretch truth into obvious and blatant falsehood.

In any event, censuses continued to show an increasing percentage of Albanians. From time to time there have been outfluxes of Serbians. Kosovo was promised to the Albanians as part of an Albanian state by the Germans for their help. In return, whatever pro-assimilationist tendencies the central Slavic government had were increased, and the use of Albanian in schools and society was sharply curtailed. In effect, as were the Croatians and Bosnians, the Kosovars were punished for backing Hitler and helping the Nazis fight the Orthodox Slavs.

So: Colonialism. Yes, Kosovo is certainly the result of colonialism. No Greeks and Latins left to be involved, so we can exclude them. But was it the Slavic "colonialism" of the 400-700s, part of what is otherwise known as the Great Migration of Peoples (Volkerwanderung, etc.). Was it the result of Ottoman religious imperialism that made it easier for Albanians that converted to Islam than for Orthodox Serbs and would have made Albanian immigration into Kosovo from the Albanian heartland easier, or was it later immigration and colonialism by Serbs into a fairly pure Albanian territory (as claimed by Kosovar nationalists)? Did German imperialism make a bad but manageable situation even worse?

Got questions, got no answers.

[NCarolinawoman]

40. Wes Clark was on again.

He was explaining in a lot of detail what is going on---Russian involvement, history of problem, etc. Does not sound optimistic. :(

[NoGOPZone]

29. Rioters break into Belgrade's US Embassy

Source: Associated Press via Yahoo! News

BELGRADE, Serbia - Serb rioters broke into the U.S. Embassy Thursday and set fire to an office after a massive protest against Kosovo's independence that drew an estimated 150,000 people.


Masked attackers broke into the building, which has been closed this week, and tried to throw furniture from an office. A blaze broke out inside one of the offices and parts of the facade also caught fire.

Authorities drove armored jeeps down the street and fired tear gas to clear the crowd. The protesters dispersed into side streets where they continued clashing with authorities.

The neighboring Croatian Embassy also was attacked by the same group of protesters.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080221/ap_on_re_eu/serbia_kosovo_independence

[rockymountaindem]

31. MSNBC is now showing pics of the mob attacking the Croatian embassy n/t

[YOY]

37. Ahhh...I would like to thank the Serbs at this point in time with

distinctive similar appreciation to the Croats, Macedonians, Kosovars, and Albanians at times as well for making the Balkans a place synonymous to ethnic violence and senseless retribution instead of the place of majestic mountain beauty and fantastic nature...

[Eurobabe]

54. I've heard that the Turkish Embassy was attacked too

[YOY]

56. ...this hurts me...

:cry:

[Eurobabe]

65. I get AlJazeera, but unfortunately not in English

supposedly they have some of the best coverage on this. Maybe I will ask my hubby to get a Sky card (for our satellite dish).

[saigon68]

64. instead of the place of majestic mountain beauty and fantastic nature...

Sounds bucolic does it

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bucolic

2 a: relating to or typical of rural life b: idyllic

[YOY]

68. I've actually referred to it as idyllic before on many an occasion...

I want to retire there...I hope we can.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idyllic

[Midlodemocrat]

49. Watching it on ABC right now.

They're rioting because the US is recognizing Kosovo.

[Mike Daniels]

74. Given most of their neighbors recognize Kosovo as well

I fail to see why the US seems to be the primary center of frustration.

It's not like other counties are racing to follow the US lead on foreign affair matters at this current time.

[bigbrother05]

55. Anybody got a map almost afraid to ask

showing the surrounding countries. I know I can look it up myself, but think it would be very informative

[YOY]

57. It's not a question of who Serbia borders but a question of who it doesn't border!

Hungary, Croatia, Bosia Herzegovinia, Albania, FYROM (Macedonia), Bulgaria, & Romania.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YOY]

59. Why would Obama help at all? He isn't a Muslim.

Neither are the Serbs.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[racaulk]

77. Snopes is your friend.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Who the hell let you in here? Shoo!

[DS1]

69. ramble ramble ramble goes the illiterate one

[racaulk]

76. Are you pregnant?

Because you're missing your period.

BTW, take this inane babble somewhere else.

[Dr. Strange]

80. OT, but...what the hell?

Pregnant? Missing your period?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[racaulk]

85. Oh, I see the post was deleted.

Yeah, the troll posted some babble about Obama. It was just basically one long, incoherent, run-on sentence, so I was just trying to point out in a funny way to the troll that he/she was missing the period.

Glad to make you laugh. :hi:

[KitchenWitch]

79. RimJob is urgently summoning you back...

[rpannier]

61. That was not a fire, fire

It was a DUH-bya rally

[LeftinOH]

71. Such behavior (by Serbians) is probably what prompted the Kosovars

to move towards independence in the 1st place: Violent, nationalistic riots.

[reorg]

138. No, you got it backwards

Nationalistic riots and violence against individual Serbs was what made many Serbs leave Kosovo throughout the eighties. Although the region had been under "self-rule" (autonomous) and was dominated by the Albanian majority (language, schools, police force) there was a movement underway heading for secession.

The Albanians living in Kosovo had already been "independent" before, i.e. they had been part of Albania during the second world war and were on the side of the German fascists - there was even an Albanian SS division "Skanderberg" that rounded up Jews and killed Serbs in Kosovo. After the war,

"... Kosovo, which was incorporated in the Greater Albania created by the fascist invaders during World War II, was liberated by the Partisans and officially designated an 'autonomous province' of Serbia in 1946. The meaning of this 'autonomy' changed subsequently, becoming extreme in 1974, as discussed in the interview, "Kosovo before 1989: Nightmare with the Best Intentions," at http://tenc.net/interviews/tika.htm "

When by the end of the eighties Serbia revoked the far-reaching autonomy status in order to prevent a secession, many Albanians staunchly opposed and subverted this, but they did not really start a civil war or anything. This began much later, when drug smugglers founded the violent KLA, first labelled "terrorists" by everyone, but later supported by military "advisors" from the US, probably Germany and, not to forget, a few notorious "mujaheddin".

[shance]

73. The protestors didn't start the fire, the 'authorities' did.

n/t

[shance]

75. "Kosovo independence" is about theft of natural resources, like Iraq, Afghanistan

and any other countries with valuable items that rich wealthy men want.

[totodeinhere]

102. What about the 90% of Kosovo's population that wants independance?

[TheLastMohican]

119. Take a note

Afghanistan was the first to recognise Kosovo.

So the leading drug-making country recognises the leading drug-trafficking country! What a hoot!

[Cherchez la Femme]

84. It appears that

we have many other hearts and minds, of ma;y nations, to win over.

I watch the BBC news sporadically. It was a shock to hear them, more than once, refer to "the United States' alleged war on terror"
This from our Number One Ally :(

What a mess our meddling in other country's (sic? or countries? --forgot the rule). is.
What a travesty it's been for (especially) the past 50 years.

[Muttocracy]

104. plural/posessive rule

s or es means plural, countries = more than one country

____ 's can be short for ____ is (it's going to rain tonight = it is going to rain tonight, this country's going to heck = this country is going to heck)

or

____'s can be possessive, of or belonging to ___ (this country's citizens = citizens of this country)

its = or of belonging to it so as not to confuse with it's = it is (my book fell off its shelf), more like his or hers or ours or yours

[Cherchez la Femme]

120. Thank you!!

Much appreciated.

Now how about apostrophe rules? LOL
I hated grammar in school, to my great adult regret...

[justinsb]

87. The Bad news is

that there is a decent chance that Shrub just got the US into ANOTHER war.

The good news is that according the US (and others) - in direct contrast to the precident which has stood since 1861 the U.S. now believes that parts of sovereign countries can unilaterally declare independence. That means that 'the South' or 'California' or whoever can now opt out of the United States.

[Mike Daniels]

89. So what about the other countries that are acknowledging Kosovo's independence

I have a feeling that the Serbs are going to have their hands too full dealing with the neighboring countries that also recognized Kosovo to inflect too much damage on the US.

[muryan]

90. I see no problem with the US supporting kosovo independence

and the people on this thread who do have a problem confuse me. Since when was it a negative thing to support the sovereignty of a people that have been largely oppressed for a long time.

[harun]

91. I support Kosovo's independence and I am glad the U.S. does as well (n/t)

[SpikeTss]

95. Kurds should get their own state and full control over oil ressources on their territory

They really should start a massive liberation movement, because they have been oppressed for so long!
I'm sure, that the State Department would help them to build their own state, once they have separates from Iraq and Turkey.
Would you agree with me?

[FalconsRule]

98. So When Southern California

wants to break away, you'll support it?

[sjdnb]

96. Poor Serb minority can't oppress and murder non-Serbs anymore

From the UN Milosevic Case Sheet

"Approximately 800,000 Kosovo Albanian civilians were expelled from the province by their forced removal and subsequent looting and destruction of their homes, or by the shelling of villages. Surviving residents were sent to the borders of neighbouring countries. En route, many were killed, abused and had their possessions and identification papers stolen."

I remember this time well - the genocide - murders/mass graves, crimes against humanity - refugee marches/camps, rapes, pillaging and plundering by a tiny minority of the region by a ruthless dictator and his complicit forces and ethnic Serbian citizenry.

http://www.un.org/icty/glance/milosevic.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

[reorg]

130. oops

I'm sure it was purely by accident, but you forgot to mention that the Albanian civilians were expelled from their homes ONLY AFTER NATO HAD STARTED THE BOMBING. There were a number of reasons for that, one of them was clearing a war zone and border region from sympathizers with the outside aggressor.

Before the bombing started, UN observers in Kosovo never reported "forced removal" of the Albanian population, let alone "genocide". A manufactured (Racak) massacre was needed to start this war of aggression, adding to the propaganda storm that Europe and the US had been subjected to for most of the nineties.

"ruthless dictator" - m., used in the US as label for the head of government of another country whose policies do require a US intervention. The person in question may be democratically elected and in a coalition government with rival political parties, they may always be careful not to break the law or any international obligations and treaties. Good indicators of whether the label may be appropriately applied at some point in the future are the nature of the country's natural resources and its strategical location.

[seemslikeadream]

97. Kosovo is an “inexhaustible supply of young people without a future and therefore ready for violence

http://www.balkanalysis.com/2007/11/18/kosovo-auf-deutsch/

[GeniusLib]

100. Ironic that the blood thirsty Serbs are complaining about violations of international law

[AFA]

109. News from the 80 s

Read some news before 1990


The province is in the southern part of the Republic of Serbia, one of Yugoslavia's six constituent republics. In view of Kosovo's large non-Serbian population, however, the province enjoys a greater degree of autonomy than provinces in other constituent republics.

"It's a real worry for them," one Western diplomat said of the departing Serbs. "It's a part of Serbia, but over the years there's fewer and fewer Serbs."

Serbs have been gradually leaving the province for years. This trend, coupled with an ethnic Albanian birthrate three times the national average, could raise the likelihood of increased Albanian nationalism in the area.

full story http://members.tripod.com/sarant_2/ksm81-1.html and other news from that time


http://members.tripod.com/sarant_2/ksm.html


The police clashed here early today with about 1,000 Serbs and Montenegrins protesting what they called terrorism against them by ethnic Albanians in Kosovo Province.

The clash occurred shortly after a meeting of the country's Central Committee during which there were 16 hours of debate on ways to ease tension between Kosovo's 1.7 million ethnic Albanians and 200,000 Serbs and Montenegrins.

Witnesses said squads of policemen seized demonstrators and forced them into buses to be driven back to their homes in Kosovo. Some protesters were detained for several hours.

The Central Committee meeting was the first in six years dedicated solely to Kosovo problem.

Tensions have been high in the province in southwestern Yugoslavia since the Albanians rioted there in 1981 to back demands for higher status as a republic.

Since then, more than 22,000 Serbs and Montenegrins have fled Kosovo.





it is reported that serbs and montenegrins, which make up 15 percent of the population of the province, have been migrating from kosovo for a number of years. but the migration became more intensive following the riot caused by some albanian nationalists in 1981 and the demand for the creation of an ethnically pure kosovo. albanians account for 85 percent of the residents in the province.

a communique issued at the end of wednesday's meeting, which was also attended by leaders from serbia and kosovo, said that certain progress has been made in stabilizing the social and political situation in kosovo and in supressing overt actions carried out by albanian nationalists and separatists. but the communique added that their illegal activities have not been eradicated and serbs and montenegrins are continuing to leave kosovo under pressure. there is also the failure to fully carry out lcy's plans for solving the kosovo problem, it pointed out.

[knitter4democracy]

124. You do know many live in the States, right?

You do know that their Orthodox Patriarch did his best to stop Milosevic and his minions, right? That many worked with NATO and hid Kosovar friends and neighbors and tried to stop the bloodshed?

Oh, yeah, that's right. You only know what you heard on the news at the time. :eyes:

[Megahurtz]

112. Chavez does not recognize Kosovo's "independence" either.

Viva Chavez!

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSN2145143220080221

[Ilsa]

113. Well, it looks like it all about the oil. Again. Two links:

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=162&a=5239
Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:58:00
Large Potential Albanian Oil and Gas Discovery Underscores Kosovo's Importance



http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8055
Global Research, February 12, 2008
Kosovo: The US and the EU support a Political Process linked to Organized Crime
Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci is part of a criminal syndicate

[Morereason]

116. What is interesting is we are essentially supporting what will become another Islamic state

Though admitedly a more moderate one at the moment...

Since most people on this board have not travelled and seen what is going on in that part of the world. Islamic peoples are slowly, through immigration and high birthrates, moving into areas and essentially taking them over. It is occurring in many places throughout eastern Europe and some areas of the former USSR. I have seen it first hand. They move into a country, often squat, Muslim churches support mass immigration movements in, countries with weak governments are afraid to rile them and just let it continue. When they reach a critical mass they claim the area and insist based on having had ancestors live there in the past and having been removed in wars (the ottoman empire was everywhere, and when it was defeated lots of relocation occurred, but the ottoman empire also relocated the previous peoples and so on....)

Before anyone accuses me of being anti-muslim or anything I would say the same if Christians were doing the same thing. It is just a fact, and it is igniting tensions in many countries.

[Ilsa]

125. I agree. I can't keep up with the concept of who belongs there.

I don't like the separatism because it makes it easier to discriminate against minority groups.

[AFA]

131. Today's BBC has a good article on this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7256488.stm

[Ilsa]

139. Thanks. Checking it out right now. This could shape the future for the

next century or longer.

[mojowork_n]

121. Oil, and GOLD. A motherlode, compared to Canada (Barrick), W. Australia

I put the link into this thread, which disappeared due to disinterest:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3187122&mesg_id=3187384

[Ilsa]

126. That's alot of wealh to change hands without compensation.

Thanks for the link. I'm going to post to it, given yesterday's news from Belgrade.

[mojowork_n]

127. I haven't checked them, for a few days, but

this website:

http://www.counterpunch.org

had some detailed, thoroughly researched articles, by George Szamuely (not sure I spelled that right), and Diana Johnstone. For some reason, it's not coming up this morning, when I tried to go over there.

[Megahurtz]

143. The Truth Comes Out!

Those evil bastards. :mad: Thieves! Again!

[RYOMYO]

145. Good. nt