Georgia Claims a Sliver of the Tennessee River

[flashl]

Source: NY Times

ATLANTA — WHEREAS, in 1818 when the border between Georgia and Tennessee was marked by surveyors, mistakes were made that deprived Georgia of a sliver of the Tennessee River.

...

And WHEREAS the concept of a war between states is not foreign to these parts,

BE IT OBSERVED that the Georgia legislature appears to be serious.

...

If the resolution passed this week by both houses is signed by Gov. Sonny Perdue, it would establish a boundary-line commission and ask Tennessee and North Carolina to do the same. Should that fail, Georgia could file suit in the United States Supreme Court — which is still deciding a similar dispute between the Carolinas.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/us/22water.html

---

While 'we' are entertained with the daily circus on teevee and other venues. There is a quite storm brewing between states about the essence of life, 'water'.

---

Tri-state water negotiations won't meet today's deadline

MONTGOMERY - Alabama, Florida and Georgia will miss a deadline today for settling their decades-long fight over how to divide the region's water. The governors of the three states had agreed to a Feb. 15 deadline imposed by the Bush administration to reach a water sharing pact. But a flurry of talks, ending Wednesday night, failed to produce a treatise.

---

Georgia Loses Federal Case in a Dispute About Water

ATLANTA — Georgia lost a major court fight in the Southern battle over water rights on Tuesday when a federal appellate-court panel said the state could not withdraw as much water as it had planned from an Atlanta-area reservoir.

---

Montana wins right to sue Wyoming in water disagreement

BILLINGS, MONT. -- The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday said Montana can pursue its lawsuit that charges Wyoming with using too much water from a pair of rivers that flow between the states.

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Proposed changes could unravel Great Lakes compact, backers say

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) -- An interstate water compact designed to prevent thirsty regions from tapping the Great Lakes could be sunk if legislators seeking changes in Ohio and Wisconsin are successful, supporters of the deal said Friday.

---

2 reports urge big changes in water usage in West

The West is big, growing and thirsty.

But the water that sustains it is in shorter supply these days - thanks in part to human influence on the earth's climate - and it's time for a profound shift in how it's managed across the West, according to two papers published Thursday in the professional journal Science.

One says 60 percent of the changes to the West's river flows, snowpacks and warmer winter temperatures over the past 50 years or so are due to human-caused climate change.

[sasquatch]

1. This what these idiots get for moving to warmer sections of the country

First of all, there's no reason why we should ever move industry out of the only region in this country that can sustain it w/out long devistation of the area its in. Second, I guess its time all you carpetbagging jackasses come back home and bring your commercial industries with you that began here and flourished here in the first place.

[bulloney]

2. For years, they've talked about piping water from the Great Lakes to the South.

I'm with you, Sasquatch. If you want water, come to where it's at. I'm tired of seeing my tax dollars and the resources from the area I live fall into a steady state of decline because we're accommodating the Sun Belt states.

I keep hearing these simplistic arguments about how much better the tax structure is in the Sun Belt because they don't have much, if any state income taxes. Hell, their climate gives them an advantage to seek other sources of revenues, such as sales taxes on lodging, food and other tourist-related ventures. I keep hearing industry crying to our state leaders that the tax structure in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and other Great Lakes States is driving out industry. And the politicians are too happy to accommodate them, especially if the Republicans control the legislature and/or the governor's mansion.

So, now we're reading about major water shortages in many parts of the south. We know where the water is. If you want it, you come here. You decide if you want warmer weather (and hurricanes and earthquakes and other nice forces of nature) or, do you want water.

For too long, we've let the spoiled brats have their cake and eat it, too at the expense of other people. It's about time this country starts looking at things beyond the ends of our noses.

[sasquatch]

4. "It's about time this country starts looking at things beyond the ends of our noses."

Well what will the baby boomers do then, that's how they lived their entire lifespan. Stupid fucks, I'm tired of accomadating their bullshit too, especially when it comes to weather. "Hot and Sunny everyday, isn't that neat." To quote Bill Hicks, "what are you a fucking lizard?".

[wtmusic]

34. Hot and sunny everyday is effin' great

Makes for great productivity -- have to be able to pay for $$$ fresh water.

:evilgrin:

[raccoon]

62. FYI a lot of younger folks have moved to the Sun Belt too.

And I didn't move here; I was born here.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[toopers]

6. If we had gotten the hurricanes . . .

then we would have the water.

[DS1]

12. come to where it's at

:argh:


FUCK

[BearSquirrel2]

15. I say they can pipe it out ...

I say they can pipe it out ... so long as they pipe it back as wastewater.

The truth is that this is not a practical plan. People in Sun-Belt states need to face up to their limited water supplies. As such, they're going to have to consent to recycle their water from sewage ... just like astronauts. It sounds uncomfortable, but we have to remember we're doing it already ANYWAY as wastewater is pumped into rivers and that water is being taken up buy communities downstream and treated for potable use.

I also believe that new communities need to run black and greywater sewage systems. Gray water can effectively be used for irrigation. Only black water needs heavy treatment. There is no point in people watering their lawns and gardens with POTABLE WATER!!!!

[sofa king]

40. With you all the way there.

Long ago I did some work for the EPA, and I was absolutely astounded at how many ways there were to conserve, purify, re-use and otherwise stretch water supplies, and how damned few of them were being used. They had an entire library full of studies on the subject, which I recall George W. tried to shut down back in the summer of 2001.

I gained the impression then that the bad polluters were also the ones who were opposed to water conservation, and that they were opposing it because they were hiding behind the "dilution solution" in order to keep dumping filth into our rivers, to be cleaned at taxpayer expense, if ever.

I don't know if it's true or not, but it sure seems to fit the pattern. Any insight on that?

[Thor_MN]

43. Plans have been floated to pipe water from the Great Lakes via unused oil piplines

I say, OK, as long as they send a gallon of oil in trade for every gallon of water.

[Tyler Durden]

60. Screw the oil: send back our JOBS.

We want ALL of those JOBS back that went south when you offered them TAX BREAKS and RIGHT TO WORK legislation.

Might even solve that "population explosion" issue you seem to have.

[ixion]

5. humans aren't meant to live in arctic temperatures

we gave up our fur millions of years ago. That's why I moved south. :hi:

[sasquatch]

8. You ass, the upper midwest isn't the artic

:eyes:
We also shed are tail and gave up retillion side years ago as well, we're more mammal than lizard sweetheart.
:hi:

[ixion]

10. I was born and raised in Nebraska, and really got tired of the winter

so I moved south. I like the warmer weather. Go figure. :rofl:

[BearSquirrel2]

16. Wuss ...

Can't take a little snow ... wuss?

[The Croquist]

22. Not Wuss, smart

I am a southern boy. I live in Georgia but grew up on southern Long Island NY.

My daffodils are blooming and the pear trees are starting to bud. The dogwoods and azaleas come next.

Atlanta Georgia averages 50 inches of rain a year. That's allot of rain. We're just in a drought. I'm sure you've had them before too.

It's currently a cool 42 degrees in Atlanta Georgia. What's it doing in Yankee land?
The good news is that we got almost an inch of rain last night and it's still raining.

Snow sucks. Skiing is supposed to be done behind a boat.

[ixion]

33. thanks

I thought it was a wise move. :hi:

[Tyler Durden]

61. Hope that rain keeps up.

We ain't sending water until you send back our JOBS.

[The Croquist]

63. I don't want to pick a fight but....

I'm not sure you would have any say in water diversion. The federal government has control of all "navigable waters" in the United States and their definition of navigable includes any water that flows into a river that is navigable. I know that because I had to go through them when I wanted to create a retention pond by damning a 5 foot wide, 6 inch deep stream. They refused.

By their definition if I piss outside I should get a permit first.

[ixion]

32. wuss? hey, if you like it, great. I prefer warmer climes

I wear shorts year round, and winter in the south is fantastic. Enjoy the snow. :hi:

[Thor_MN]

44. It's a lot easier to put on more clothes to get warm than to get cool when naked is too hot

I have observed that when people complain that office spaces are too cold in the summer that it's better that they put on a sweater than me shedding clothes if it's too hot. They usually agree.

It is easier to heat a space than to cool it. With cooling you have to get rid of the heat generated by transporting heat as well as the heat you are trying to move. An air conditioner run backwards is a heat pump and it is more efficient heater than cooler.

Like everything in life, it's a tradeoff. If an area has grown to the point that they have run out of a natural resource, they have reached a boundary and need to stop growing. If the area can not find a way to reduce/reuse/recycle the resource, then it's time to move on - the carrying capacity has been exceeded. Artificially moving that resource into the area just makes the next drought/famine/whatever that much worse.

So one needs make their choice, deal with a little snow or go thirsty.

[The Croquist]

50. Not at my house it's not

Clothes are strictly optional. Trust me, you don't want a visual.
Honestly I don't think water is a long term problem in Georgia. This drought is/was a fluke. I've been here for most of the last 34 years and we've had many droughts and very wet years. The biggest problem is that the population has exploded. The metropolitan area has grown 600% since 1950. That's allot of people.

The drought seems to be easing. Unlike further north when it rains here it rains allot in a short period of time. I've gotten 2 1/2 inches in the last 3 days. February rain went from a deficit to a surplus in 48 hours. We're supposed to have thunderstorms Tuesday. I'm getting optimistic.

[toopers]

52. And we have not had a gulf coast hurricane since . . .

2005. We need for one of those things to hit Mississippi/Alabama again.

[The Croquist]

54. I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not but

hurricanes are a natural part of living along the gulf coast just like earthquakes, blizzards and tornadoes are natural in other parts of the country. Most of the time they miss big cities and in the case of Katrina it did miss New Orleans. I was watching the storm (in Georgia) with a neighbor's brother-in-law who had evacuated. We both agreed that New Orleans had dodged another bullet. He was planning on driving back the next day. What we didn't know was that the levees had broken. New Orleans was destroyed by bad levees not the wind.

[toopers]

59. No, I was not being sarcastic . . .

We, the SE really does need another hurricane to hit the gulf states and then flow northeast across the SE states and dump a bunch of rain.

[Thor_MN]

56. I'm was talking physics, I'm in aggreement with you

I think I may have mentally damaged the girl next door when she rang the doorbell and I was on the couch in just gym shorts. It was a hot day, but not so hot that I wanted to run the AC. I need to do something about replacing that clear light in my front door.

I was merely pointing out that adding clothes when it is cold is easier than finding cool when it's 90+ heat and humidity. I grew up within 200 yards of billions of gallons of water at 40-50 degrees (Lake Superior). I now live near Minneapolis, but 85 is still a hot day to me. I can comfortably spend hours outdoors when it's 10 below, I can't say the same for a 98 degree day.

Getting most of your rain in big chunks helps lake levels, but doesn't work as well at recharging groundwater - too much runoff. I've been thinking of setting up something to catch the water off the roof during the summer to water the garden. I'm tired of spending money to buy water that I get charged sewer fees for to water plants.

[Redstone]

25. Well, now. A post of yours that I agree with. Completely.

Redstone

[sasquatch]

26. OMG, what the hell is wrong with me?

:silly:
BTW, does your wife speak Afrikaner?

[Redstone]

27. No, she didn't grow up in South Africa; her brothers and sisters did, though.

Because Mrs R is half (black) African, they wouldn't let her live in South Africa, even though her (white) mother lived there. Long and ugly story.

Why, do you need something translated? I might be able to do that for you.

Redstone

[sasquatch]

29. No, I was just curious

My dad has a friend that was a Dutch South African. He only speaks his native Afrikaner when he's either really excited or really pissed.

[Redstone]

31. It's a touchy subject for a lot of people. Mrs R's half-sister refuses to speak Afrikaans, even when

she's visiting South Africa (she now lives in Austria), because she considers it to be the language of Apartheid.

This sister of Mrs R's is white, but she's so disgusted by the Nazi-ish Broederbund bastards she grew up around, that she won't even refer to any of them by name. Only as "that one who called himself my uncle," for example.

It was really, REALLY ugly there in the Apartheid days.

Redstone

[eilen]

3. In the Rust Belt, we have lost people in droves

they all go south and west. Companies close and go to Puerto Rico, China and south and west. Biggest complaints about my region is the snow, the long winters and high energy costs to heat and of course, the high taxes (which only go higher as more people leave).

But.....
we have plenty of water and are not ever considering exporting it (hell no!). So far as I am concerned, NYC should just build more water purification and desalination plants as they have a few rivers and a friggin' ocean to tap. While their at it, they can also build some electrical generation plants and abandon the NYRI and avoid marring the rest of the state.

We don't get major hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes and generally (except for the flood plain south of Binghamton) no flooding. We have beautiful lakes, many we still drink from. In the Spring/Summer and Fall, you can't find better weather. Nice crisp early summer mornings..... Grass is green practically all summer without the need to water it every day. The air is fresh. Housing is affordable. (A $500,000 home is unnecessarily showing off--indicates high ego needs). Our roads get plowed when it snows and the whole world doesn't need to shut down. We have good food--can easily pick up a decent delicious loaf of Italian bread without it being suffocated in plastic wrap for about $2. I have a downtown and a farm I can access within 15 minutes each way. The acid rain from the west comes in and causes dead pools in our verdant Adirondack streams but still we have one of the best kept national park secrets in the US.


I live in Onondaga County, upstate NY. Our upstate counties are generally underfunded and underrepresented and I suspect many in NYC and LI aren't aware we even exist. Hillary Clinton comes here for the State Fair and for her "Listening Tour" but otherwise we disappear. Maybe because we're closer to Canada than Manhattan?

Most people who leave for a while have a very hard time readjusting to the winters, they go a bit soft, the blood gets thinner in the hot sun.

So, the desert is dry? Who knew?

[The Croquist]

51. My best friend grew up in Long Lake NY

He moved to Georgia, Alabama, Costa Rica, North Carolina, South Carolina and back to Georgia before he decided to quit the rat race.

Now he runs a bed and breakfast in Newcomb NY in the Summer and works as a consultant (from Georgia) in the winter.

Talk about thin blood:
I've been up there 4 times. Twice on fourth of July weekends, once in August and once in September. It was ALWAYS cold. I thought I was going freeze to death one fourth of July in about 1982. We were cruising on Long Lake on a barge with a bonfire on it, When I exhaled I could see my breath!

[Lorien]

57. One of my best friends is a city planner for Syracuse

She and I both grew up in Columbus, Ohio; a Northern city that's still growing and vibrant. Syracuse is slowly dying, and none of her efforts to revitalize it have had a huge impact because major employers in the area keep leaving. I think that the University is about it now. Her best hope is that high speed and light rail is developed someday soon so that families can live in Syracuse but work elsewhere (her other idea is to create the most respected public education system in the nation, which might attract families who work from home). The homes up there are gorgeous and cheap. It's heartbreaking to drive through neighborhoods with crumbling Victorian mansions which would sell for millions in my area (Orlando).

Having moved South, I've found that nearly all areas of the country have their fair share of problems. Here is Florida our problems are obvious to everyone; hurricanes, crime, corruption, poor education, heat, insects, snakes, gators, tourists, etc.-but the weather is usually good and the cost of living isn't very high (compared to most coastal states). In Ohio there are tornadoes, ice storms, higher taxes, a lack of sunlight, and a high unemployment rate...but the people are better educated and the state offers more cultural attractions then we see down here. Everything seems to balance out; it's just a matter of picking your poison.

[bronxiteforever]

7. The Con Jobs don't believe in planning-just free markets to ruin at will

Surprise! No Water in the South and dry West for new cities. GOP free markets at their best.

[greenman3610]

9. diversion of Great Lakes water will not be allowed

Just so everyone is clear on that.

[dysfunctional press]

14. exactly- back when there was an oil embargo, the oil in OK and TX didn't belong to the whole nation-

why should great lakes water be any different?

people who want the water can move to where it is.

[BearSquirrel2]

17. Are you suggesting ...

Are you suggesting that tapping the oil deep beneath the Texas plains affected the 1000ft deep ecology????

The water belongs to the basin it resides in. That's the deal on the Great Lakes. And mind you ... there is another country involved in this issue. Each lake except Michigan borders Canada ... but technically Lake Ontario and Michigan are really the same lake.

[dysfunctional press]

18. no...

i'm saying that when opec jacked up the prices on the oil we imported, the oil companies that got oil out of the ground in the u.s. had no compunction about charging us the same prices for our domestic oil- a natural resource of this country, and enjoying all those nice bigger profits for themselves.
they COULD have chosen to sell their oil at a lower price, and still continued to make a profit- but they CHOSE to be opportunists and that was o.k., because it's the "american way".
if we all weren't entitled to one region's vital natural resource at a fair price- why should another one be treated differently?

btw- how could lakes michigan and ontario be technically the same lake? they aren't even near each other, and lakes huron and erie are in between them...i could see a case being made for lakes michigan and huron being the same body of water- but then technically there would only be one ocean in the whole world, too.

[susanna]

38. I think what BearSquirrel2 means...

...is that all of these lakes make up an interconnected waterway. They combine to create a passable shipping lane; they are not separate lakes in that regard. They are, in essence, all one body of water named in "chunks" if you will. Strangely enough, the lake that makes all that possible is Lake St. Clair, which is NOT a Great Lake, but allows the "great" lakes Michigan, Huron and Superior to flow into the other great lakes Erie and Ontario.

Someone else can probably say it better, but that's the best I've got tonight. BearSquirrel2, if I didn't explain it the right way please jump in. :-)

on edit: water flows down not up

[idovoodoo]

20. Don't you mean Michigan and Huron? Ontario is about 300 feet lower

and way east...
;-)

[The Croquist]

24. Can you provide any support for this statement?

Sorry.

I should have read further.

[wtmusic]

35. Absolutely. And Colorado River water stays in Colorado.

That's what God intended.

[Lance_Boyle]

49. I believe Colorado water is already distributed nationally as "Coors."

Please keep more of it in state - it's really bad.

[TechBear_Seattle]

11. This raises an interesting question about rivers as state boundaries

I was looking at a map of Georgia, and I see that the state boundaries are defined by rivers: the Savannah River makes up most of the eastern border, and the Chattahoochee River makes up about half of the western border.

What happens if one of the river shifts course, say, because of an earthquake or because rivers tend to meander? Does the states sharing that border immediately gain or lose territory, or are the borders now permanent regardless of what happens to the rivers?

I also notice from the Wikipedia article on Georgia that the state has gone before the United States Supreme Court twice before regarding border disputes, most recently in 1989. Interesting that such things would still be issues.

[juno jones]

13. IL and MO have several spots

On the Mississippi River that have 'shifted' over the years. There are a couple of small juts of land that belong to one state or the other despite their current location on the river. We took a driving tour of the area years ago and found it all very amusing. Heck, that was before the last big Mississippi flood in '93. Things might have even changed again.

[Xithras]

36. Depends on the states.

Take a stroll up the Mississippi using Google maps in satellite mode and you'll spot a bunch of these. Technically the land remains with the original state unless the two states sign treaties agreeing otherwise. My favorite spot is the Kentucky/Tennessee/Missouri border. There's an "island" of land in a river loop that belongs to Kentucky, but which is almost completely surrounded by Missouri and is actually connected to Tennessee. The only way to get to it from the rest of Kentucky is to drive into Tennessee and back north up the peninsula. Once there, you're surrounded by Missouri. River borders can do funny things.

[sofa king]

41. On the Mississippi, the borders are permanent.

Or pretty much permanent, anyway. I'm sure the exceptions are interesting, but I can't remember any offhand.

Generally speaking those state's borders were established down the middle of the river at the time that the state was inducted into the Union. When the river shifts, the border stays the same.

That's not the case between Maryland and Virginia, though. Maryland contrived to gain total control of the Potomac and the border is at the waterline on the Virginia side. If I recall correctly, the border is set at what once was an average high water line, so that if Alexandria floods, Maryland or DC don't have to deal with it.

On a map, you can see that Delaware's northern border is obviously drawn with a compass, its center fixed at the courthouse in the town of New Castle. The unusual border also grabs all of the Delaware River over to the low-tide mark on the New Jersey side.

State border fights are usually pretty funny and I enjoyed the time I spent learning about them. But then I forgot it all. Well, almost all. I do remember one joke.

One of the more bizarre "wars" in American history is the Toledo War, in which Michigan and Ohio actually sent out militia forces to confront each other over possession of the Toledo strip. Mostly, they just insulted each other from opposite sides of the river.

The punchline? Ohio lost.

[TechBear_Seattle]

48. The Toledo War... funny!

This is just the kind of thing one does not learn in US history classes.

[susanna]

66. The funniest part...

...at least IMHO, is the fact that Michigan gained the upper peninsula as a "consolation prize." Later, huge amounts of copper were found there that made everyone involved quite wealthy.

The reason it's kind of funny is at the time of the whole issue, everyone thought Toledo got the better deal, what with gaining the bottom borderlands; then the copper rush came along up north a ways...Toledo/Ohio was kicking itself in the head, trust me.

There are still amazing examples of theatres and other assorted detritus of the upper classes in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Based on what? Copper, of course. It was a very wealthy place in the world, for a time at least.

on edit: spelling gremlins not caught by spellcheck

[underpants]

64. The Md-Va border over the Potomac is owned by Maryland

basically they own everything on the river up to the bank in Virginia. This became relevant when the contracts (Va is "right to work" state) to rebuild the Wilson bridge where doled out.

[trof]

19. This may touch off another 'War Between the States'.

But with all southern armies this time.
Should be interesting.

[sasquatch]

39. Who do we cheer for in this mess?

[Occulus]

45. The river.

Cheer for it and hope it alters course daily for a month.

Let hilarity ensue.

[sofa king]

42. If they're of the same mindset as that last war, I hope they both lose.

[DS1]

21. time to dip the raccoons in gasoline and hurl me some coonbombs

over that river there

gol dangit!

[Redstone]

28. Cattails make better torches, but the 'coons might be better because they'll run around

after they land.

At least for a little while.

Redstone

[donsu]

23. learn how to retrieve rain water - learn how to clean it

we can't live without water. just knowing how to do these things could be a matter of life and death at a later date.

[Lex Talionis]

30. Hey Georgia peaches, y'all want our water!

Come take it! Yea, I'm from Tennessee. :) Also, what sasquatch said.

[sasquatch]

37. Wow it's nice to have people agreeing with me

:)

[Lex Talionis]

46. I'll usually agree with just about anyone when..

Their right. Your right. In a blunt sort of way. :)

[toopers]

53. Depending on how you look at it . . .

it may not be your water.

[Lex Talionis]

55. Thats true, They get a little more state taxes, which

Tennessee doesn't have.

[vision]

47. This has been going on in Kansas for decades

I use to live in Great Bend, KS as in by the great bend of the Arkansas River. But you would not know it. Colorado has the river dammed and I know the farmers around Great Bend complained that they did not let enough of the river through the dam. In certain parts of the city you had to have flood insurance even though the last time it flooded was in 1981 and is considered a 100 year flood.

The dispute was "settled" in 1995 by the supreme court http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/000/u10273.html
But I could easily see it flaring up again.

[ohio2007]

58. A symptom of global warming or peak population. It can't be both.

Maybe next year several hurricanes will make landfall in Georgia....proof of glabal warming they say is increased hurricane activity.

[rontun]

65. What a fight this should be

It's always a hopeful sign when we have two Red States at each other's throats.

I wonder how the people who reside in the area of Tennessee being claimed by Georgia will feel about losing their status as Volunteers. I can't imagine many will take kindly to being labeled as Georgians.