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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:37 AM
Original message
Russia could use force in Kosovo
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 09:39 AM by maddezmom
Source: BBC

Russia's ambassador to Nato, Dmitry Rogozin, has warned that Russia could use military force if the Kosovo independence dispute escalates.

"If the EU develops a unified position or if Nato exceeds its mandate set by the UN, then these organisations will be in conflict with the UN," he said.

In that case Russia would "proceed on the basis that in order to be respected we need to use brute force", he said.

Many EU members have recognised Kosovo, but several oppose recognition.




Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7258801.stm



~snip~

Also Friday, Russia -- which has not recognized Kosovo's sovereignty -- said it has not ruled out using force to resolve the dispute over the territory if NATO forces breach the terms of their U.N. mandate.

"If the EU works out a single position or if NATO steps beyond its mandate in Kosovo, these organizations will be in conflict with the U.N., and then I think we will also begin operating under the assumption that in order to be respected, one needs to use force," Moscow's ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin said, in comments carried by Russia's Interfax news agency.

A spokesman for Russia's Foreign Ministry also warned that Kosovo's declaration would have a "negative impact."

"What happened in Belgrade yesterday is regrettable. But we would want to draw your attention to the fact that the forces that supported the unilateral recognition of Kosovo's independence should have realized the effects of the move," spokesman Mikhail Kamynin told Interfax.

more:http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/22/serbia.kosovo/?iref=hpmostpop
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Time to buy canned goods and iodine pills yet? Thanks, President Blowmonkey! n/t
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Mike Daniels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Last I looked the US is "one" of 22 countries that have supported Kosovo
with 28 more set to recognize shortly.

Why don't you thank some of the other countries while you're at it?
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. hahaha
The great nation of Tuvalu could be thanked personally, I guess, by your president. All three thousand of them!
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I forgot how many countries there are now in the world
130 +, maybe?
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. If 22 other countries jumped off a bridge, why should my country have to follow them? n/t
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Because we should as a matter of course
Because we should, as a matter of course and all other things being equal, support self-determination?

However, if you believe that Kosovo should in fact not pro actively pursue self-determination, this would be a wonderful opportunity to explain why...
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bronxiteforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Kick & R-
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, right. Just like when Bill bombed Belgrade, I guess.
And they are entering Kosovo through where? Serbia? Or take the route through the Baltics, to Poland, then Hungary, then Serbia? Or just fly to Belgrade?
Russsia has been Serbia's Big Brother for forever. Add in the irrendenta in Catalyuna, Chechnya and voila, I think we know why Spain and Russia have a tack in their socks. . .
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jaybeat Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. Putin must be itching to get back on the wrong side of history
The Serbs were butchers in Bosnia, and we didn't do squat.

They were butchers in Kosovo, and we finally grew a spine (sort of).

Now, 10 years later, Kosovo independence from Serbia is the biggest "duh" in the region, and the Russians threaten to use force?

What--so their Serb pals can go commit some more atrocities?

'Course, if Georgie-boy hadn't had his attention somewhere (everywhere) else, this never would have gotten to this point.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Putin, and other European countries have "breakway" problems
and putting down an independent Kosovo is consistent with Russia's domestic interests.

Contemporary world politics is full of break-aways being repressed by military force and the threat of military force.

Modern history is also replete with these movements, which included things here at home...The USA broke away from Britain, the CSA broke away from the USA, and Texas broke away from Mexico. All of these later events involved brute military force.

I'd be disappointed but not surprised at all if the landscape of Kosovo runs with blood again.

Humans are an "us vs. them" sort of critter and globally we make it an "us vs. them" sort of world.






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TheLastMohican Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Did you spend the last 15 years under a rock?
Serbs - butchers? Just as much as the albanians in Kosovo. Both sides committed numerous attrocities, but it doesn't give US a right to intervene on one side of the conflict and totally alienate the other.
Russia had its problems in Chechnya too and they managed to avoid "Kosovo" through superior firepower and neglect of international pressure. Serbia is smaller and not that lucky.
But I guess both will be cheerleading from now on any separatist movement in the world which hurts US interests.
Bad move, really bad move by US "gunboat diplomacy".

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SquireJons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. WTF?
You can't be serious. I haven't been under any rocks and I know that Serbia committed the largest and most serious atrocities against civilian populations since at least the Khmer Rouge. Yes, the people of Kosovo fought fire with fire, as did Croatia and Bosnia. And the use of the two headed deer as a national symbol is inflammatory, but that doesn't excuse what went on under Milocevic. You would seem to be attempting to do just that.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Serbia? have any reliable Cites? NATO has failed to find the bodies.
Remember, Serbia was NOT involved with the war in Bosnia. Serbs were involved, but those were Serbs who lived in Bosnia. Serbs living in Serbia were NOT involved. Now Serbia was supporting the Serbs in Bosnia, but no evidence of any direct or indirect control has surfaced. Thus the War Crimes in Bosnia and Croatia can NOT be blamed on Serbia (Through can be blamed on the Separate Serbian Bosnian Republic). This was confirmed by the International Court of Justice:

A trial took place before the International Court of Justice, following a 1993 suit by Bosnia and Herzegovina against Serbia and Montenegro alleging genocide (see Bosnian genocide case at the International Court of Justice). The International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling of 26 February 2007 determined that Serbia had no responsibility for the genocide committed by Bosnian Serb forces in Srebrenica massacre in 1995. The ICJ concluded, however, that Serbia failed to act to prevent the Srebrenica massacre and failed to punish those believed to be responsible, especially general Ratko Mladić. Finally, the court concluded that there was not sufficient evidence to find that there had been a wider genocide committed against the Bosniak population, as alleged by the Bosnian government.

Thus even the international Court set up to investigate War Crimes pointed out Serbia has no control over what happened in Bosnia. For more see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War

Thus, if we are looking at crimes of SERBIA, we have to look at the only place where Serbia sent troops, Kosovo.

The only ALLEGED atrocity BEFORE the US started to bomb was Ratko, it only involved 45 bodies, and most tested positive for exposure to gunpowder (Through the test used is known to give false positives). Serbia has claimed it was a legitimate Military operation against Kosovo Guerrillas, Kosovo claim otherwise. For more see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C4%8Dak_incident

For the Actual Kosovo War see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

The problem has been the lack of bodies. Bodies have been found in Krajina by Croatia and Croatia claim they are massacred Croats when Krajina was an independent Serbian State, but Serbs claim they are the product of the Croats when the Croats invaded Krajina. The Croat source for the body count is suspect, and the Serbs report is also suspect. Since Krajina is now (As it once was) part of Krajina, it is hard to get independent reliable information. For more see operation Storm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

Again, Krajina is NOT Kosovo, but Croatia, and as stated above Serbia had little, if any, control over the forces in Krajina.

To read Wikipedia report on Slobodan Milošević:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87

All told, not much evidence of Serbia committing any war crimes. During and after the war, such claims were made, but we still do NOT have the evidence of such war crimes.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. Ha ha I agree. n/t
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
7. Jesus Christ, now this fuckhead (Bush) has gotten us into another.......
US "Soviet" standoff. And it only took 7 years to go from friendly relations to "cold war". What a piece of shit.
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
9. So what does the UN say about it then?
What is the UN position and how does it differ from NATO's position? Why would the UN object to Kosovo becoming an Independent state? Should we work within the UN or simply Dictate to them how it will be?
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
11. Another thundering success for Bushaleeza
:eyes:
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
14. paging Dr. Condi -- do we have a competent Sec of State in the house?
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. There's a sale on at Prada
Handbags at only 15X the manufacturer's price!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. Let Russia and the EU take care of this. We should sit back and chill
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trthnd4jstc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. Philosophically, I support everyones right to be free, yet facts on the ground are complex.
Edited on Fri Feb-22-08 09:16 PM by trthnd4jstc
There is a big Serbian minority in Kosovo. I cannot see that it is just that they have to be carried away from Serbia with the rest of Kosovo. Even though the Serbian Communist Party instigated their "Greater Serbia", after the death of Premier Tito, causing massive violence and blood shed, we should understand the pain of the Serbian people. Imagine how the Serbians felt after we supported Kosovo's independence. This should not have happened like this. Not all of Kosovo should have split off. There should have been some concessions, for the matter of fairness to the Serbians people, and to the country of Yugoslavia. I had asked the White House to have gotten involved in Yugoslavia, to stop the blood shed in Yugoslavia. I think that Milosovic, and the others that instigated all of this killing were, and are war criminals. Anyway, diplomacy is a great art. I doubt Russia will be actively involved, but I believe we will have more bloodshed, and probably more Russian arms sales to Serbia, and probably some Russian/Serbian Black Ops. More killing, more masacres, more bloodshed, more tears. What a shame. Though it seems that Diplomacy would not have been had by the Kosovars, and the Serbians, I bet there was some middle ground that would have been better than what will happen. Peace!
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. kick
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. Russia warns it will use force to back Serbia
Source: CanWest

Kosovo Secession; U.S. urges Moscow to be more responsible

Steven Edwards, Canwest News Service
Published: Saturday, February 23, 2008

UNITED NATIONS - The international split over Kosovo grew more ominous yesterday as Russia raised the spectre of using force to back Serbia's bid to retain the territory.

Russia's envoy to NATO warned the Western military alliance, which has a 16,000-strong peacekeeping force in Kosovo, and the European Union against formally backing Pristina's declaration of independence.

"If the European Union works out a common position, or if NATO breaches its mandate in Kosovo, these organizations will be in conflict with the United Nations," said Dmitry Rogozin. Russia believes the UN Security Council resolution on Kosovo does not authorize a unilateral move to independence.

"We, too, would then have to proceed from the view that in order to be respected, we must use brute force, in other words armed force" ...

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=328247
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. They've threatened this before.
Russians look at Serbians as cousins, family. They'll fight for family. Last time, they helped broker the peace deal behind the scenes, so maybe they're saying this overtly and doing something behind the scenes we don't know about.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Didn't the Serbs
start WWI?

Of course they didn't hve GW Bush to help out then.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. No. n/t
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I don't think we liked it very much when Britain & France helped out the Confederacy
And if the southern states were to secede today, I don't think that * would like it very much if Russia & China were to recognize the Confederacy.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yes it is quite a minefield
Canada has to be very careful about this too, given the possibility of a declaration by Quebec at some future date.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. there was a glut of cotton on the market back then and Britain had India as a cheaper source
of king cotton. Europe had little vital interests in supporting the farmers and racist plantation slave owners...

just saying,they had no dog in that fight
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. The British supported the South during the Civil War.
Britain loaned money to the South (Which has never been paid back), provided them guns, ships and other supplies. Even built ships for the South (or had them converted from existing ships).

The main reason for no intervention was three fold, first internal British opposition to going to war to preserve slavery, Britain had technically abolished Slavery in its colonies in the 1840s do to internal opposition to the institution of Slavery (And no major opposition to such abolishment given that the main source of Cotton for English mills was in the American South, which would be unaffected by the British abolishment of Slavery).

The Second was military, basically by 1862 the two largest Armies in the World were facing each other in Virginia. The British army would NOT provide much support for the South, and the North still had the capability to field an additional Army (The North by 1862 had three Armies in the Field, The Army of the Potomac outside Washington DC, The Army of the Tennessee outside Nashville, the the Army of the Ohio outside St Louis (At Shiloh the Army of Tennessee and Army of the Ohio would be merged, which was the reason Grant was attacked at Shiloh, to prevent that merger of those two armies). Additional substantial forces were in New Orleans. All of this a YEAR BEFORE the draft was instituted in 1863. The North would have various other armies during the war and the names would change over time (The exception was the Army of the Potomac and the Army of the Tennessee, names and Armies that would last to the end of the war). My point is simple, the North could field even more men then it did in 1865 (The US had a million men at arms in 1865, excluding the Militia, which still existed). These could all be set to attack Canada without affecting the north's war against the Confederacy.

Given this HUGE force WITHOUT a draft (and when the Draft was passed it had so many exceptions, including the right to buy your way out of it, it did NOT bring in many new recruits, but did bring in bonus money for any Soldier who wanted to re-enlist but refused do to the lack of enlistment bonuses like the ones that had been popular in 1861). Furthermore, more Canadians were serving in the Union Army then in the Canadian Militia. Now the numbers depends on who is doing the counting, The Union numbers seems to be accurate, through Canadians object to the fact the US Statistics gives an exact number rather than round numbers (British War Gamers of today go with the Union numbers as more accurate, those guys really get into not only the tactics of the armies they are gaming, but how they are formed, by who and why). Canadians tend to use 1861 militia numbers NOT the Militia numbers after the militia reforms of 1862 and 1864 (The reform reflected the fact that a huge number of Canadians did NOT want to fight or otherwise resist an invasion by the US, thus the Canadian Militia was reformed twice during the US Civil War, to make sure it included more and more Canadians who would oppose a US Invasion). Thus given the attitude of many Canadians (Maybe the majority or maybe not the majority, no Canadian Government official did a survey or an election, for fear of the results), and the ability of the US to call even more soldiers into the Union Army, there was no way Britain could hold on to Canada if the US invaded.

Furthermore, the huge introduction of Monitors into the Union Navy gave the US Naval superiority off the US Coast. These ships were NOT design for actions deep into the Atlantic, but it was the British who had to cross the Atlantic and then fight to land and support the South. The Monitors where cheap and quick to built compared to the British Battleships of the time period. Each British Battleship could easily defeat a Monitor, but the prospect was 3-4 monitors on each British Battleship, and in such a case the Battleship would lose. Britain faced not only losing Canada, but some people think they would have had a hard time to hold onto Newfoundland. Nova Scotia and New Brunswick would have quickly fallen to a US Navy Monitor invasion, but Newfoundland is a little to far away for a Monitor to reach and be combat ready (A Monitor did reach England after the war, and the condition of the Ship and crew was horrible according to British reports, but it was more a attempt to show the British that the Monitor was a worthy ship for what it was designed, off the coast of the US, then to show that the US Monitor could attack Britain).

Thus all told, Britain had GOOD military reasons to avoid a war with the US. Memories of the Crimea War was still fresh in the minds of many in Britain. Britain and France won that war, but the problem of Supply had been hopelessly underestimated at the start of the War, and stayed a problem till the end. Going across the Atlantic would require ships capable of traveling the North Atlantic, not the Ships built to help move supplies across the Mediterranean and Black seas. This supply problem added to the Military problems. All together, given the problems, Britain was looking as serious Military losses in any intervention.

The third problem (If the above was not enough), was other commitments. France and Britain had intervene into Mexico in 1862 over economic problems of Mexico, Britain quickly pulled out, but France kept throwing in men and material to defeat the opposition to the Government their imposed. This tied up the France Army and Navy, until France decided to pull out in 1865 (Do to massive amount of Civil War Surplus being sent over the Mexican Border by the US when the Civil War ended AND the Marshaling of potential invasion armies in late 1865 along the same border). Do to the pull out of the French army in 1865, the Mexican government imposed by the France was overthrown in 1867. My point is FRANCE was hopelessly tied up in Mexico to give any assistance to Britain when in came to intervening in the US Civil war. Britain was looking at intervening all by itself.

This was complicated by the Russians. Britain and France had fought the Russians in the Crimea War of 1854. The US had supplied the Russian armies by smuggling supplies through the waters controlled by France, Britain and their ally Turkey into Sevastopol (In fact both McClellan and Stuart of later US Civil War frame saw the Charge of the Light Brigade from the RUSSIAN lines do to how close the US and the Russians were at that time). Russia even sent its fleet to various US Ports during 1862, to show support for the North (This was to be paid by the North, but was NOT done till Alaska was purchased in 1867, the price of the visit was added to the price of Alaska. Furthermore Alaska was "sold" to the US more do to the fact Russia believe the US could defend it better from a British attack then any other reason).

No formal alliance existed between the US and Russian in 1840-1918 period, but both countries had reasons for support each other given that both countries had ongoing conflicts with Britain (The Japanese took the view that the US IMPOSED a Settlement of the Russo- Japanese war of 1905 on the Japanese do to this long term "understanding" and several survivals of the Japanese Defeat of the Russian Fleet escaped to US held Philippines, based on that same long term understanding).

The Russians did NOT have to send troops or ships the US to support the US, all it had to do was stir up the tribes in Afghanistan which would lead to problems in the Indus River Valley of then British Indian (Now Pakistan). This would have required additional British Troops AND ships to get them to India, thus denying any ability of Britain to support the South (Russian seems to have done SOME actions to stir up people in Afghanistan, enough to get the British Attention then anything else).

My point is simple, Britain had several good reason NOT to intervene in the US Civil War even through they were dependent on Southern Cotton. Lincoln played to all of the Reasons Britain should NOT intervene. Lincoln had the Russian Fleet visit the US at the same time he issued the Emancipation Proclamation (Which was more for British consumption then US consumption, Black slave could NOT read and the Conditions in the south, i.e vast new troops all over the place, during the Civil War had made any escape of Slaves almost impossible by 1862 let alone 1863 when the Proclamation kicked in). When a US ships captured two Confederate Ambassadors on a British ship on the High Sea, Lincoln put them back onto a British ship, and paid for the damage to the British ship. Again to provide support for the Anti-intervention forces in Britain, when it was needed. Most British Newspapers in 1862 demanded war over that attack on a British Ship, as an act of war. War seemed on it sway, when News of Lincoln's action was received and used by opponents of going to war to show the US will obey international Law as it fights the South.

Thus Britain did have a dog in the US Civil War (US would sell captured Cotton to Britain all through the War), but do to the above three reasons Britain stayed out of the war for intervention looked like it would be costly.

More on the CSS Shenandoah, the last Confederate Ship to Surrender, NEVER landed anywhere in the NEW World let alone any Port of North America:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Shenandoah
http://www.csa-dixie.com/liverpool_dixie/shenandoah.htm
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Great history lesson, thanks
I've often heard the Crimean War referred to as one of the first true "world wars". Makes one wonder, if a few things had gone somewhat differently, that the Civil War might have devolved into a world war as well.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Very Good possibility, Poland was in Revolt against Russia,...
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 02:51 PM by happyslug
And Poland had French and British support. Bismark was uniting Germany under Prussia, against English interests (Through by the 1880s Germany had become Britain's chief European ally, but then that changed after 1900 as Germany built a Fleet). Italy was allied with Prussia against France, but had just ended an alliance with France against Austria. Italy was hostile toward France for sending French Troops to keep Rome under the Pope after the rest of Italy had been untied (Italy would gain Rome when Prussia defeated France in 1870). Turkey was a close ally of Britain in the 1860s (primary against Russia). Japan was in a pre-revolutionary status that would lead to the "Restoration" of the Emperor to replace the Shogun, who had run Japans for Centuries. China was in the middle of a massive Peasant Revolt, The Taiping Rebellion. The Chinese only put this down with French and British help.

For more on the Taiping Rebellion see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

The Polish revolt of 1863:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Uprising

Thus the world was a tinderbox in the 1860s, but France and Britain was so busy putting out the fires that intervention in the US Civil war would just have lead to WWI 60 years earlier then it did occur.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
29. Go Russia! n/t
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