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MarkInLA Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:43 PM
Original message
'Wrong,' Clinton says of Obama's campaign mailings
Source: Los Angeles Times

She accuses her Democratic rival of distorting her positions on healthcare and NAFTA. The Illinois senator's camp stands by the mailers' accuracy.

By Michael Finnegan, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
12:05 PM PST, February 23, 2008

CINCINNATI -- An angry Hillary Rodham Clinton scolded Democratic presidential rival Barack Obama today for campaign mailings that she described as false and shameful attacks on her record.

...

"Enough with the speeches and the big rallies, and then using tactics right out of Karl Rove's playbook," she said, alluding to President Bush's former chief political advisor. "This is wrong, and every Democrat should be outraged."

...

"So shame on you, Barack Obama," she said. "It is time you ran a campaign consistent with your messages in public. That's what I expect from you. Meet me in Ohio. Let's have a debate about your tactics."

Clinton and Obama are scheduled to debate on Tuesday night in Cleveland.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-clinton24feb24,0,6720654.story?track=mostviewed-storylevel



Guess she's not honored to be in the race with him anymore.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. She was nasty. Compared Obama to rove, publically shamed and belittled him.
What an embarrassment to the Democratic Party she is today.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yeah, the Rove reference was low. nt
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I honestly lost my respect for her today.
What was she thinking?
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I don't know - I've been trying to understand what the motivation is behind this -
if it's a legit complaint (like a Harry and Louise type of lie that Obama put forth), or just more of the stuff they've been trading back and forth all along. I asked for clarification on another thread and I'm beginning to agree with those who feel it's just a new tactic.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. This is the stuff that bothers me
She goes from that classy ending to the last debate, and in no time flat, she's on to calling him Rove. How about just disputing what she disputes about his mailer? Would that be so awful?
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
38. This is despereations
on her part. The annointed one can see her campaign circuling the drain and will do what ever it takes to try to get the nomination. If it means smearing Obama, watch out. She will outdo any Republican when it comes to smearing a person if she thinks that is what it takes. JMO
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. agreed, she is dragging the party down
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. None of this is dragging down the party...
They can't debate the issues because they are so close...

So they have to differentiate themselves somehow...

BTW, this is the way politics is run, always has been always will be...

Take what your side sees as an advantage and exploit it...

They ain't running for senior high class president...
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Not so sure -- I remember the gleeful amusement of watching McCain and
Romney go after each other. I think it DOES reflect on the party when the candidates behave in such a manner.


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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Obama people compare Hillary's campaign to Rove all the time.
But it's okay when YOU do it. Got it.

Hypocrites much?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Shame on Obama.
He needs to come clean!
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. As opposed to the number of DU'ers who refer to Hillary as "the same as Bush".
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Last I checked, no DUers are running for President. There is a difference.
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. So name-calling and slander is OK as long as you're not the one running?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Name-calling and slander from a candidate is a helluva lot different.
A candidate can't control what a bunch of anonymous posters of a discussion board say.

They should be able to control their own mouths and and their own campaigns.
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gsplfnk Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Rubber, glue
What Obama has been saying all along about Clinton's desperate Rovian tactics is that "Whatever bounces off me sticks to you."

He can swat her off like a housefly because that is what she has become, that is what she makes of herself.

Desperate and shrill. That is the current level of the Clinton campaign. I'd like to think that the standing ovation Bill Clinton, John Edwards and the Bible earned for the words Hillary Clinton spewed at the end of the last debate really do suggest she is ready to give in.

Her swan song?

We can hope. It would be most kind of her to bow out now so that Obama can focus on the real battle ahead.

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Oleladylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. THIS will be a debate..go get him Hillary..
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
37. She's done.
She torpedoed her own candidacy. And he'll brush her off casually in the debate and she'll look angrier and whinier than ever. She blew the whole enchilada. Bye bye hilly.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Uh... don't they each kind of distort the other's positions just a teeny bit? Isn't
that part of the game?
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. And his response was perfect
"Sorry the facts bother you Senator."
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I hadn't heard that!
And you're right - a PERFECT response, rather than becoming defensive and stepping right into the frey.
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MarkInLA Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. lol... And I bet he was very calm when he said those words...
...as opposed to Hillary's tone. I'm sure I'll make some people angry by saying this, but Hillary just doesn't come across well when she's trying to look tough - or maybe that's her natural way of speaking, and the emotional Hillary that we see from time to time is the exception.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. Anything he does is perfect. We all know that.
He is without flaw.
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MarkInLA Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Well, it's good to hear that you've finally seen the light
:+
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. Clinton really seems childish with this stuff
She can dish it but she can't take it? Let's debate YOUR tactics, Senator Clinton.
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MarkInLA Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. Maybe she'll do a Bob Dole imitation for us
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 04:54 PM by MarkInLA
"Stop lying about my record!!" (in an angry tone of voice)

That should win some votes. :sarcasm:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. My email to the article's author:
Mr Finnegan,

I am a voter from Columbus Ohio, who just finished your article, "Wrong Says Clinton of Obama's Campaign Mailings". I take seriously the issue of free trade (I am adamantly against it) so I did a little research and found the following THAT HILLARY DID INDEED PRAISE NAFTA IN THE PAST. Honesty is attribute that is important to me. I am disappointed with Hillary's false statements.

XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX, OH


Meet the Press discussing Hillary backing NAFTA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ0swdRvYgw

Hillary Clinton Pretends She Never Praised NAFTA
Posted February 14, 2008 | 06:20 PM (EST)

-snip
The Huffington Post has followed along with a laugh-out-loud piece in which the chief architects of NAFTA (many who are now wealthy corporate lawyers and lobbyists) are now saying, no, no, Hillary Clinton was really opposed to it. These are the same people, of course, who are looking for jobs in the Hillary Clinton White House.

What a total joke, really. This campaign clearly thinks we are all just a bunch of fools.

Hillary Clinton has made statements unequivocally trumpeting NAFTA as the greatest thing since sliced bread. The Buffalo News reports that back in 1998, Clinton attended the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and thanked praised corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA." Yes, you read that right: She traveled to Davos to thank corporate interests for their campaign ramming NAFTA through Congress.

On November 1, 1996, United Press International reported that on a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region."

The Associated Press followed up the next day noting that Hillary Clinton touted the fact that "the president would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement."

In her memoir, Clinton wrote, "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for president in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA."

Yes, we are all expected to just forget that, so that Hillary Clinton's campaign can manufacture supposed "outrage" that anyone would say she supported NAFTA - all at a time her chief strategist, Mark Penn, simultaneously heads a firm that is right now pushing to expand NAFTA into South America.



-snip
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/hillary-clinton-pretends-_b_86747.html


Clinton promoted her husband's trade agenda for years, and friends say that she's a free-trader at heart. ``The simple fact is, nations with free-market systems do better,'' she said in a 1997 speech to the Corporate Council on Africa. ``Look around the globe: Those nations which have lowered trade barriers are prospering more than those that have not.''

Praise for Nafta

At the 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting ``a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of Nafta.'' She added: ``It is certainly clear that we have not by any means finished the job that has begun.''

Clinton ``is committed to free trade and to the growing role of the international economy,'' said Steven Rattner, a Clinton fundraiser and co-founder of Quadrangle Group LLC, a New York buyout firm. ``She would absolutely do the right thing as president.''

There was little evidence of a protectionist tilt to Clinton's trade views during either her 2000 campaign or first years in the Senate. She stressed issues such as homeland security and children's health care, and wasn't a major voice in trade-policy debates.

-snip
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=atUKcP4eSEvY&refer=politics




FROM TIME:

SOME FACTS ON CLINTON’S SUPPORT FOR NAFTA:
 
2006/2008: Newsday Reviewed Clinton’s Statements, Concluded She Supported NAFTA. According to a Newsday issues rundown, “Clinton thinks NAFTA has been a boon to the economy.” Newsday wrote in 2008, the word “boon” was their “characterization of how we best understood her position on NAFTA, based on a review of past stories and her public statements.”
 
2003: Hillary Clinton Expounded on Benefits of NAFTA, Calling it An Important Legislative Goal. “Creating a free trade zone in North America—the largest free trade zone in the world—would expand U.S. exports, create jobs and ensure that our economy was reaping the benefits, not the burdens, of globalization. Although unpopular with labor unions, expanding trade opportunities was an important administration goal. The question was whether the White House could focus its energies on two legislative campaigns at once . I argued that we could and that postponing health care would further weaken its chances.”
2003: Clinton Called NAFTA a “Victory” For President Clinton. In her memoir, published in 2003, Clinton wrote, “Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for President in 1996. He couldn’t hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill’s successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA.”
1996: Clinton Said “I Think Everybody Is In Favor Of Free And Fair Trade. I Think NAFTA Is Proving Its Worth.” A questioner pointed out that UNITE opposes the North American Free Trade Agreement, backed by the Clinton administration, on grounds it sends American jobs to Mexico. In March 1996, three years after President Clinton signed NAFTA into law, Hillary Clinton said, “I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth,” she said, adding that if American workers can compete fairly, they can match any competition. “That’s what a free and fair trade agreement like NAFTA is all about,” she said.
 
1996: Clinton “Vowed That Her Husband Would Continue To Support Economic Growth In South Texas Through Initiatives Such As The North American Free Trade Agreement.” AP wrote, “Mrs. Clinton vowed that her husband would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the Rio Grande Valley empowerment zone, which allows tax breaks to businesses that relocate to the border.”
1996: Hillary Clinton “Touted” President Clinton’s Support for NAFTA, Saying it Would Reap Widespread Benefit. On a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton “touted the president’s support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region.”
 
 
COMMENTATORS AGREE CLINTON HAS SUPPORTED NAFTA AND FREE TRADE
Sirota: “What A Total Joke” That Clinton Camp Tries to Argue She Did Not Support NAFTA, “Clinton Has Made Statements Unequivocally Trumpeting NAFTA.” In response to Barack Obama’s attack on NAFTA, the Hillary Clinton campaign has gone into meltdown mode…The Huffington Post has followed along with a laugh-out-loud piece in which the chief architects of NAFTA (many who are now wealthy corporate lawyers and lobbyists) are now saying, no, no, Hillary Clinton was really opposed to it. These are the same people, of course, who are looking for jobs in the Hillary Clinton White House. What a total joke, really. This campaign clearly thinks we are all just a bunch of fools. Hillary Clinton has made statements unequivocally trumpeting NAFTA as the greatest thing since sliced bread.“
Bloomberg: Clinton “Praised” NAFTA, Friends Said She Was “A Free-Trader at Heart.” Bloomberg News reported, “Clinton promoted her husband’s trade agenda for years, and friends say that she’s a free-trader at heart. ‘The simple fact is, nations with free-market systems do better,” she said in a 1997 speech to the Corporate Council on Africa. ‘Look around the globe: Those nations which have lowered trade barriers are prospering more than those that have not.’ Praise for Nafta At the 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting ‘a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA.” She added: ‘It is certainly clear that we have not by any means finished the job that has begun.’ Clinton ‘is committed to free trade and to the growing role of the international economy,’ said Steven Rattner, a Clinton fundraiser and co-founder of Quadrangle Group LLC, a New York buyout firm. ‘She would absolutely do the right thing as president.’ There was little evidence of a protectionist tilt to Clinton’s trade views during either her 2000 campaign or first years in the Senate. She stressed issues such as homeland security and children’s health care, and wasn’t a major voice in trade-policy debates. As she began to gear up for a White House run, Clinton became less of a free-trade booster and more skeptical about the payoff of globalization.”
Ø Clinton’s NAFTA Rhetoric Is Not Driven By Policy. Bloomberg News reported, “Clinton’s positioning on trade reflects the changing nature of the debate in the U.S., which increasingly focuses on concerns over outsourcing and the shift of jobs to other nations such as China and India rather than on the benefits of tariff reductions. It also — as with Republicans grappling over illegal immigration — demonstrates the extent to which grassroots sentiment can alter candidates’ platforms. A Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll conducted in January found 39 percent of Democrats believe free trade hurts the economy; only 18 percent say it is a benefit. Both parties agree that a backlash on trade helped Democrats in the 2006 elections. West Virginia Senator Jay Rockefeller, a Democrat, said U.S. workers have been ‘so decimated’ by unfettered competition that ‘I think the American people understand they will be hit by it.’ Clinton promoted her husband’s trade agenda for years, and friends say that she’s a free-trader at heart.”
 
SF Chronicle: “Add to this Democratic front-runner Sen. Hillary Clinton’s coolness to the idea. Her husband moved earth and sky to win passage of the NAFTA trade pact with Mexico and Canada in 1993. Now she favors periodic reviews to continue such deals, a “timeout” on new ones, and more federal officials to oversee complaints. It’s clearly a flip-flop favor to unions and industry sectors hit by layoffs and cheap imports and bid to outflank her rival, Sen. Barack Obama, who is more favorable to free trade.”
BILL CLINTON CONTINUES TO ARGUE FOR NAFTA
JANUARY 2008: Bill Clinton Says “A Lot Of People Think NAFTA’s A Bigger Problem Than it Is.” During an event in Las Vegas, Clinton said “She believes that NAFTA, she believes that all our trade agreements should be reviewed in the first 90 to 120 days of taking office. She would have a total moratorium on all new trade deals until we conducted a review. And one of the things that we have to examine is the point I made earlier. That is, is the trade agreement basically fair, but we just don’t enforce it. A lot of people think that NAFTA’s a bigger problem than it is. Our problem with Mexico, our trade deficit with Mexico is mostly because we buy oil from them.”

-SNIP
http://thepage.time.com/saturday-obama-campaign-release/


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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. good job mod mom...
where are the HRC supporters who claim that Obama is always "whining"? This should put Hillary's claims to the contrary to rest.

This faux outrage is just another in her bag of tricks. Did she really think that no one would check the facts?
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. His arrogant sneakiness is why so many people I know don't want to
vote for him even if he is what we get stuck with.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
34. Much of his behavior is passive/aggressive. n/t
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MarkInLA Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. I just saw the video on CNN
She sounds desperate now, almost flailing in her lashing out at Obama.

By screeching, "Enough with the speeches and big rallies!", she also sounds jealous.

Maybe her little speech will galvanize the contingent of angry women out there, but it's going to drive away everyone else.

I love that Obama is criticizing her plan for "forcing people to buy health care". He's going to attract Republicans and Libertarians with that statement, and that will be a good thing for us in the general election.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I think the wheels just fell off zee ol' wagon there
we'll see if my prediction is correct soon enough I suspect!

My god, we cannot allow this out of control fool that cannot balance her own checkbook nor speak a foreign language be in control of America.

Qualifications?

What qualifications?

:kick:

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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
19. Hillary's Flip Flop on NAFTA, her very own words:
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. How DARE he confront the DINO/DLC Queen with her own policies!!! The NERVE!!!
Kick her ass, Obama.

J
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Sonnenschein Donating Member (251 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. Why is she outraged now? Obama has been attacking her for months.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. it gets her free news coverage?
that's the only thing i can think of. does she not understand that in this age of the "youtube" (lol) that her own words can come back to bite her in the you-know-what?
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
35. Wow. I feel sad for her now. She's defining herself as the angry candidate.
How utterly disappointing and sad. "Hope r not us." -H.R. Clinton
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
36. From the LATimes article I see no problem with Obama's mailer
I have a big issue with mandatory health insurance myself - in principle, it is the notion that the government can dictate our choices and grab another handful of our income. It would be another enforced limitation of freedom.

NAFTA was also mentioned...I am old enough to remember well the issues of the time, and one of my great disappointments with the Clinton administration was its support for NAFTA, and international economic policies in general. If HRC wishes to distance herself from it now, that is wonderful, but the history is far too recent and well documented to credibly deny prior energetic support.
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