Connery: Scots independence close

[bemildred]

Source: BBC

Sir Sean Connery has said he believes Scotland will become an independent country within his lifetime.

The 77-year-old former James Bond actor, who lives in the Bahamas, says Scotland is "within touching distance" of achieving independence.

Writing for the Scottish Sunday Express, Sir Sean praises the work of the SNP government which gained power in the devolved parliament last year.

He has been the SNP's most high-profile supporter, donating thousands to funds.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7261161.stm

---

Sort of like Kosovo?

[aquart]

1. Not even a little like Kosovo.

Does no one study history anymore?

[bemildred]

3. A national minority wanting their own state?

After being long subjugated in an empire? Having Scots roots, maybe it's a clearer analogy to me.

[harmonicon]

5. totally different

Scotland is one part of the United Kingdom, that is, the scottish are no more a national minority than New Yorkers are in the US - I don't think the word 'minority' fits. They also wouldn't be creating any kind of new country, only breaking the union between countries that has existed for a few hundred years. I suppose I could care less.... unless they allow smoking in pubs again, as an independent country. In that case, I'd move there.

[ixion]

8. look at the phrase "United Kingdom"...notice the "king" part?

Scotland is not a part of the kingdom by choice, but by force of conquest, just like Ireland and the the rest of the members of the 'kingdom', by definition. Kingdom means quite literally the realm of a king.

[Pab Sungenis]

19. What? Do you know ANY British history?

England and Scotland were united upon the death of Elizabeth I, the last Tudor Monarch, who named James of Scotland as her heir. If anything, SCOTLAND took over ENGLAND at that time.

[bemildred]

20. Yeah, but he was not a Scot anymore than Bush is a Texan.

Carpetbaggers, all of them.

[okasha]

34. Wrong.

James was the son of Mary, Queen of Scots, and her cousin Henry Stewart, Lord Darnley. They were both descended from the Scots royal house going back to Bobby the Bruce, crowned in 1307.

[bemildred]

35. Here, meet his Dad:

Early life

Darnley was born in 1545, at Temple Newsam, Leeds, West Yorkshire, England, the son of the 4th Earl of Lennox, and his wife, Margaret Douglas. He was related to his future wife in at least three ways: they shared a grandmother in Margaret Tudor, putting both Mary and Darnley high in the line of succession for the English throne; Darnley was a descendant of a daughter of James II of Scotland and thus also in line for the throne of Scotland; and Darnley's family surname was due to a much more ancient connection to his male-line ancestor, Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland.

On their marriage, which took place 29 July 1565 in the chapel of Palace of Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh, Darnley was given the title of King of Scots, but he was a king consort only, with no royal powers.

---

Estrangement

His marriage to Mary, Queen of Scots, was a disaster. Darnley was much younger than Mary and not particularly mature for a 19-year-old. He possessed a fondness for cross-dressing. (citation needed) He was unpopular with the other nobles and had a mean and violent streak. Within a short time, Mary became pregnant, but Darnley grew more and more demanding. His jealousy of Mary's private secretary, David Rizzio, culminated in the bloody murder of the latter by Darnley and a group of his supporters, in the presence of the queen herself at Holyrood Palace. Archibald Douglas, Parson of Douglas subsequently secured pardons for all those involved.

Following the birth of their son, the future James VI, the succession was more secure; in late 1566 and early 1567, Darnley and Mary appeared to be close to reconciliation, as she was often seen visiting his chambers. But Darnley was unpopular and petulant and offended many who should have been his natural supporters. On 10 February 1567, the bodies of Darnley and his servant at the time were discovered in the gardens of the Hamiltons' house, Kirk o' Field, Edinburgh, where they had been staying. A violent explosion had occurred that night at the house, but the evidence pointed to Darnley escaping attempted assassination, only to be murdered when he got outside.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Stuart%2C_Lord_Darnley

[LibertyLover]

61. James VI of Scotland and I of England

had more Scots ancestry than Bush has Texan. His father was totally Scotish and his mother, Mary Queen of Scots was half Scottish and half French. Hardly a carpetbagger.

[bemildred]

62. Eh, OK, he was more scots than Bush is Texan. nt

[bemildred]

12. You are clearly ignorant.

The world is literally "littered" with these little national homelands, and many of them like Scotland have their own little national independence movements. Large countries may have dozens of them. The United Kingdom has at least three, not counting Eire which has already managed to escape. Once one starts to allow "independence" based on "national self-determination", one finds there is a great deal of accumulated work to do. It borders on being the rule rather than the exception. The real problem is that the "divide and rule" types think it is just ducky to stir this sort of thing up elsewhere, but then get extremely annoyed when it happens at home.

[bemildred]

13. And you are wrong about the USA too.

Although you may be right about New York.

[Demeter]

14. Would That We Could Part Ways With the South and the West!

The South because they never wanted to be part of any Union anyway, the West because they think they can drain the Great Lakes for their golf courses and swimming pools, orange groves and rice paddies!

[bemildred]

16. Well! The same to you!

:spank:

[ladywnch]

22. Alaska has had a secessionist movement since the day statehood

was granted. Ain't gonna happen. but they do keep trying.

[Demeter]

25. If They Had Enough Infrastructure, They Could

I wouldn't have any objection. If Iceland can be independent with half the population, so can Alaska.

[Hugabear]

17. You can't seriously compare Scotland and New York

There truly is no comparison whatsoever.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

24. You're right; Scotland has much better haggis pizza.

"The 77-year-old former James Bond actor, who lives in the Bahamas,"

Umm, that says it all.

[New Dawn]

37. Exactly, that is because there is no "New Yorker" ethnic group

On the other hand, there is a Scottish ethnic group. And there is a Celtic language spoken by a small minority of highland Scots (Scottish Gaelic). Celtic languages are totally different from Germanic languages (like English). It is a totally different branch of the Indo-European tree of languages.

I think all of the modern Celtic nations deserve independence and should form a federal Celtic state.

http://www.celticleague.org/

[harmonicon]

40. that doesn't make any sense to me

the vast majority of Scots have never spoken a Celtic language, nor have their ancestors for many generations. Recent studies have shown that most Englishmen have predominately celtic genes, despite being culturally changed by the Roman, Saxon and Norman conquests. If genealogy is a basis for who is and who isn't a Celt, the English have as much place in that group as the Irish or Scottish. Despite all of that, basing nationhood on ethnicity is one of the most disturbing things people ever have or will do. I don't think it was so great in third Reich Germany or in Israel now.

[enlightenment]

4. no kidding.

Scotland was not subjugated al la "Braveheart" for pete's sake. That's not to say they were utterly complicit in their "union" with England, but neither were they a conquest.

[harpboy_ak]

7. They have nae forgot 1742

A SNP friend told me he'll stand for "God Save The Queen" when a Stuart sits on the Scottish Throne.

To say it was "hardly a conquest" is to ignore the history of the Stuarts, especially the restoration of Bonnie Prince Charlie.

Most Scots consider themselves conquered, and are not happy about it.

[Maine-ah]

11. Culloden 1746

I have my Scots roots too, and we don't forget our history.

[Maeve]

15. Or the Clearances...and check out www.ScottishHistory.com eom

[provis99]

27. except the Clearances were carried out by Scottish landlords

The Scots stood up to the English, but got done in by their own clan chieftains, who wanted to replace them with sheep. Self-rule is overrated.

[Maeve]

28. The Gaelic clan system was pretty much destroyed by that time

Their traditional role of protector being replaced over the years with a more "landlord" role. The forms were still there, but changed beyond recognition; the ruling class were as likely to have been born in London as in Scotland. They were afflicted with a total disdain for the lower classes, never mind those were the people they were supposed to be taking care of.

Yeah, self-rule is overrated...all that let the people make their own decisions and democracy and stuff. Much better to let the divine-right king decide...

[MilesColtrane]

30. I've got ancestors from Badenoch...Clan Macpherson.

Their emblem basically says, "try us and we'll fuck you up".

[enlightenment]

32. I'm not ignoring the history of anything.

I'm just not limiting my history of the nation to the Stuarts.

Scots history is longer and more intricate than the Risings, which were, ultimately, unsuccessful because they did not have the backing of the majority of Scots at the time. We can discuss it in detail, if you like; along with all the other movements, moments, and changes that contributed to the modern relationship between Scotland and England.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of people in Scotland, particularly members of the SNP, who see themselves as "conquered." Personally, I've no quarrel with their efforts; I thought it was utterly fascinating and rather inspiring that the sexed-up and fictionalised account of William Wallace in Mel Gibson's "Braveheart" could lead to a reinvigorated political push for devolving the Scots Parliament. It certainly proved that there are a lot of people in modern Scotland who would like their nation "back." Good for them, and I wish them well - although they may find the reality is a bit different than the idea.

That said, I have no desire to engage in emotional rhetoric. One of the reasons that the Scots are as close to independence as they are is because they have learned how NOT to engage the process on an emotional "we were done wrong/we'll never forget" basis. Rather than falling back on whinging and threats of violence, they've been working within the system to forward their goals. It has been a profoundly logical procession and I see no reason to add all the emotional bits into it.

Hauling history out to make a point is useful only when you take the time to haul it ALL out.

[liberalpragmatist]

44. And the Catholic Stuarts were heavily opposed by many Scots

Lowland Scots -- the majority, Presbyterian, English-speaking community -- was dead opposed to the Stuart restoration and fought tooth and nails against Bonnie Prince Charlie and James the Young Pretender.

History = complicated.

[ixion]

9. tell that to the men who died at Falkirk

I'm sure they may see it differently.

[LostinVA]

48. Of COURSE they were conquered

Jeebus.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. Given there was no fighting involved, there's no 'of course' about it

'Conquered' is the wrong word. "Corporate takeover" is a better description; it was primarily about money - both Scotland's lack of it after the disastrous Darien venture (in which English help, defence or sympathy was notably lacking - the English parliament may already have realised they could absorb Scotland if it went broke, so their indifference to the settlers' plight may have been purely mercenary), and the bribes some Scottish politicians were paid to accept the Act of Union.

[theHandpuppet]

50. Tell that to my Scottish ancestors

Who were imprisoned and tortured, then shackled, mutilated and shipped as servants to the Jersey plantations in 1685.

[The Croquist]

33. If the people of Scotland want independence

I don't have an issue with several caveats.

People shouldn't be allowed to vote over and over again on an issue like this. You agree to an election but if it fails you don't get to hold a re-vote every year or two until you win. Maybe once a decade or maybe very 20 years.

Another thing. Something like this should be a super majority. Whether 2/3 or 3/4 I don't know.

The voters should also understand that by leaving Great Britain they must accept their share of the national debt and an equal share of certain assets. Exactly how Great Britain could reach this agreement would be tough.

[BearSquirrel2]

42. What about defense ..

What about "defence". Should the Scots just bask in the protection of UK planes, UK Navy. And what about customs. Is it even feesible that the UK would be able to define their own standards given that the fight is done at the ports and Scotland having it's own port could undue the whole thing?

We have the same issue here with a few Indian Reservations trying to declare independence. The logistics of maintaining a border is just ridiculous. But it does make sense to make them part of our federal system and independent from the states in which their territory might reside.

[The Croquist]

46. There are a thousand issues

but independent nations already have those issues. Does the Republic of Ireland get a free ride on Britain's defense? Probably. I don't know which region is wealthier but I would guess it's not Scotland. The loss of tax subsidies from the south could really bite them.

[Maeve]

47. Three words--North Sea Oil eom

[The Croquist]

55. "Three words--North Sea Oil" Good point!

I didn't think of that.

[lovuian]

2. cool

:woohoo:

[davidinalameda]

6. I really hope this happens sooner than later

[ozymandius]

10. This is great.

Scotland has as much culture in common with England as Spain has with Mongolia.

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. When were you last in Scotland?

Or England? Since have been in both in the past week, I can tell you you're talking rubbish. Scotland's and England's cultures were intertwined long before William Wallace.

[ohio2007]

18. I doubt the English or the Irish would put up a fight like the Serbs and Russians are

But will Russia recognize Scotland as a fair trade off to the shit hitting the fan closer to home


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT32fJzJ1zU&feature=related

So, which is better? The Scotch or Irish whiskey ?

[Maeve]

26. One is whiskey, the other is whisky

And I prefer the one that is triple-distilled....

Canada and Scotland produce whisky, Ireland and America have whiskey (easy to remember--no "e" in Canada, Scotland or whisky)

[tomg]

21. About ten years ago, I was in a Plaid Cymry leaning pub in

Northern Wales, and a Welsh Nationalist friend said that while there would always be an England, he would't bet on the United Kingdom being around. With that said, Wales is different from Scotland and seems to going toward a form of cultural nationalism ( bi-lingualism etc.) rather than political independence.

[BearSquirrel2]

43. Like little Quebec? (nm)

...

[kskiska]

23. If that were to happen

it would seem the Queen would have to give up Balmoral and Holyrood Palace. How could she reside in a foreign country?

[PassingFair]

29. England Forever -- Scotland a Day Longer!

Most Scots I know are full-on for independence.

It will make me happy just to see THESE two happy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcWSpPkf78s

[hyphenate]

31. Not gonna happen (Not soon, anyway)

I doubt if most modern Scots are willing to go to war over this like their ancestors did, but the union with England offers them too much to have them really be willing to split.

Hey, it's been many years since some of the fundies out there threatened to take over either North or South Carolina and become an independent nation--hasn't happened. And we must not forget the French-Canadians in Quebec who have wanted to split from the rest of Canada for decades. A lot of talk but not enough action. Scotland splitting from England and the other parts of the U.K. is analogous to these examples.

Ultimately, of the three examples, perhaps Scotland will see change before the other two, because the Scottish people are not prone to wax poetic on the subject. They've been pretty action-oriented through a lot of their history.

[New Dawn]

36. As someone with a Scottish surname... :)

I fully support Scottish independence!

I also would like to see a pan-Celtic state: http://www.celticleague.org/

[LostinVA]

49. Interesting link, thanks for posting

My mother's side is very Irish, and my wife's father's side is.

[WritersBlock]

38. I dunno. I can't see it, personally.

I wonder how the logistics would work out. Would current residents of Scotland who were born in England have to go back to England? Would they have to naturalize? What about all the Scottish-born people working in England? Would there be dual UK-Scottish citizenship?

What about the tax base? Is Scotland populated enough to support a national defence infrastructure? Where's the money for a navy and air force going to come from? What about the NHS? Unless all the funding for Scottish medical services is already currently generated in Scotland (and I don't know whether it is or not), then is there enough of a tax base to support national healthcare?

Those are just a few; there are many other practicalities to look at once one gets beyond the romantic mist-shrouded lochs & glens.

[frankf]

57. My thoughts

I think things would even out considering revenue from oil. I agree though that providing some things would be lest cost efficient (like the military) but then again presumably they could just have a military defence pact with a neighbouring country to make up for it. I don't think citizenship would be a big deal, they state place of birth on the passport don't they - or at least birth certificate.

[Yavin4]

39. Scotland's The Man Now, Dog n/t

[BearSquirrel2]

41. Federalism ...

Another argument for federalism. All 50 states have slightly different laws. Efforts for independece go into your own molehill legislature. Then we have common national laws.

There shouldn't just be a Scottish Parliment. Rather, there should also be Irish, Welsch and English parliaments. Ultimately, (besides Ireland) it is just one island. It kinda makes sense that it should just be one country.

[provis99]

45. what a patriot Connery is: living in Bahamas

What, I guess Spanish taxes were too high for him? Suck an egg Connery.

[ozone_man]

51. I would live to visit an independent Scotland.

Scotland forever!

[bemildred]

54. Kosovo could end Scotland’s European dream

Kosovo’s independence must have cheered Scotland’s nationalists. The birth of another, smaller state in Europe is, on the face of it, a distant but useful precedent for them.

However, the diplomatic fallout over recognition of the newcomer has ominous implications for the separatists in minority government in Edinburgh. Half a dozen European Union states fear the example that is being set for ethnic minorities within their borders. If Scotland ever votes for independence these states could easily make an example of it by blocking Scottish membership of the EU. The opponents are vehement. Cyprus, determined to avoid any example that might confer legitimacy on the self-proclaimed Turkish Republic of North Cyprus, denounced Kosovo’s declaration of independence as “a violation of the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Serbia”, which, Erato Kozakou-Marcoullis, the foreign minister, said “would set a dangerous precedent”.

Feeling is equally strong in Slovakia and Romania, where ethnic Hungarians make up 10 per cent and 6 per cent of the population respectively. The parliaments of both countries rejected recognition of Kosovo by huge majorities. Some Slovak deputies openly accused their Hungarian compatriots of planning secession. As Traian Basescu, Romania’s president, bluntly told a Nato meeting, this is “a risky precedent ... what message are we sending to multi-ethnic societies or to others that are facing ethnic issues?”

Spain has better reasons for apprehension. Separatists in the Basque region, some of whom have now resumed violence, look openly to Kosovo (and Scotland) for encouragement. Other regions – Catalonia, Valencia, Galicia – are also pressing for greater autonomy. Spain, in a commendably communautaire spirit, spent most of 2007 pressing EU colleagues behind closed doors to brake Kosovo’s enthusiasm, but José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Spain’s prime minister, has now publicly joined the ranks of the opponents.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a4756a3c-e472-11dc-a495-0000779fd2ac.html

[frankf]

56. The article says "Minority"?

The SNP are (or were) the largest party in the scottish parliament. Even if they've lost a few seats since I last looked I wouldn't call them a minority.

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. Since they got less than 50% of the vote, yes, they're a minority

The SNP got about 32% of the vote - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_election,_2007#Election_results . Overall, parties in favour of full independence got less than 40% of the vote - Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats got about 60% between them (dividing up the constituency and regional vote is a bit complicated).

But they're a minority government primarily because they have 47 out of 129 seats in the parliament. If the other parties combine against them, they will be defeated.

[Matilda]

59. I'd have a little more respect for Sean Connery as a patriotic Scot

if he hadn't accepted an English knighthood.

[Nihil]

63. FWIW, the award isn't "English".

On the other hand, I'd have more respect for Connery if he actually
bothered to live in the country he is stirring up, pay his taxes there
and put up with the consequences of his actions.

Mind you, I think an awful lot of English would be happy for the
Scottish (and Welsh) to have independence as long as they got their
rabble of MPs & Lords out of the Houses of Parliament at the same time ...
:P

[juno jones]

60. The question is

Will they take me back? I know it's been a few generations, but I'm still MacLeod ( and a few other things). What's their take on repats? :)