Northrop beats out Boeing, wins tanker deal (Airbus gets deal)

[Jax]

Source: Seattle P-I

snip...

"In a stunning upset for The Boeing Co., the Air Force has chosen a team of Northrop Grumman Corp.
and Airbus parent EADS to supply air-refueling tankers in a closely watched, much debated and hard-fought competition."

Read more: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/353250_tanker01.html

---

Well, we do have two Democratic U.S. Senators and a Democratic Governor...




Alyce

[Tempest]

1. How much did Boeing's corruption on the deal-making influence the decision?

http://thehill.com/business--lobby/air-force-works-to-push-past-scandal-to-purchase-tankers-2007-01-23.html

http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Boeing_Procurement_Scandal_Spawns_48_Air_Force_Reviews_General.html

[Jax]

9. Here is another article about that and the original article updated

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/353277_tankerhistory01.html

snip...

'In her 2004 plea agreement, Druyun described her efforts to curry favor with Boeing through the manipulation of billion-dollar Pentagon contracts.

The breadth of her admission surprised government contract specialists and many in the defense industry.

After the Air Force responded to McCain's complaint and announced it would solicit competing bids, Druyun admitted sharing with

Boeing proprietary pricing information that had been furnished to the Pentagon by rival Airbus.

"It was jaw-dropping," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, a nonpartisan watchdog group.

"She was admitting to what in the worst of all worlds we thought might be happening."

Later investigations concluded that part of the problem rested in the fact that Druyun had functioned during the previous tanker competition in a

bureaucratic vacuum, with little oversight from superiors or little transparency to outsiders.'



Link to updated original:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/353250_tanker01.html



Our Governor is waiting for the Boeing officials to get the breakdown on the decision before she responds.

Alyce

[laconicsax]

2. Hopefully they'll iron out the wrinkles in their flight system

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kHa3WNerjU

[Tektonik]

8. how nice

You linked a vid of an experimental flight system. That is completely germane to this subject. :eyes:

[Pavulon]

10. It takes not much to remove the rudder

from an a320. It may be a ford chevy thing but fuck airbus. The EU is not buying 777 for long haul routes.

[laconicsax]

15. Not experimental.

The video commentary was somewhat inaccurate--the plane was flown by a pilot who stated that the cockpit instruments gave faulty readings and the engines would not respond to input. The flight data recorder was tampered with and the pilot served jail time. Airbus insists that it was completely pilot error and that it's systems are fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

There's also the crash where an A300 lost its tailfin on takeoff. The crash was also attributed to 'pilot error' and Airbus insists it bears no responsibility whatsoever.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/flight587.shtml

[Pavulon]

31. Rudder

ask any pilot what the effect of a full articulation of the rudder is on an airbus a320 at take off speed. It breaks off.

7 bodes are not perfect, but...

[Parche]

3. F-In Shelby

Probably got a good deal out of it

I despise Airbus,

How can the Airforce, go to Airbus

I am pissed

I will email my senator and rep
:grr:

[Acadia Blue]

4. The USA is weak now since we have everything in Iraq....what do

they expect? Our economic power is gone and getting worse.

[Pavulon]

5. Breaking News: Boeing Loses Tanker Contract

Source: Wire Story

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Northrop Grumman and the maker of Airbus planes beat out Boeing Co. to win a $35 billion government contract to build up to 179 military refueling planes, the Air Force said Friday.

The tanker deal is also certain to become a flashpoint in a heated debate over the military's use of foreign contractors since Boeing painted the competition as a fight between an American company and its European rival. Boeing is expected to protest the decision.

Read more: http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_022908WAB_boeing_tanker_deal.c40389c.html

---

Why are my tax dollars subsidizing Airbus. That’s what European tax dollars are for. This is BS and is unfair to domestic workers who build aircraft.

BTW Remember the Airbus that crashed into queens after 9.11. Apparently you can not move the rudder on the a320 from full port to starboard without removing the rudder..

I feel for the guys who used to hate McDonald Douglas. Now they are stuck with this euro trash.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. "Why are my tax dollars subsidizing Airbus?"

:shrug:

[Tashca]

6. not good

I had the opportunity to sit down with a retired Army general the other day. He was filling me in on this situation with the bidding and his concerns. He will be livid with this announcement.
He explained in great detail where many of the parts are coming from for many Army vehicles. He said he has addressed this many times to no avail. He feels this outsourcing of military parts is becoming a huge concern for national interest.

He is retired and there is nothing he can do about it now.....except to educate people like me. It was very eye-opening.

[Zorra]

7. Punishing Washington workers for electing Democrats? Probably.

It would not be the first time that this Bu*h administration Military-Industrial Complex displayed red state bias.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

13. perhaps they are rewarding Alabama to get the

news off of Siegelman. Jeff Sessions was apparently very involved in this

[DuaneBidoux]

50. Many jobs in Wichita Kansas a red of red states will also be lost.

In fact, I think there were actually going to be more jobs in Wichita than in Washington (they always have the majority of the military work there).

My blood red livid little brother, who lives in Wichita, just called me blaming (of course) Democrats for this. But in any case, it is huge news in Wichita Kansas.

[idovoodoo]

54. McCain helped create this situation

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2004253027_tankerpolitics01.html

[tocqueville]

11. the anti-eu posts on this thread

are a good illustration of an US-jingoism that penetrates deep the US society even among progressives.

It's obviously not acceptable for some that the US Army can buy high-tech stuff from Allies or even worse that US companies can go in joint ventures with European ones. On the other hand it's probably very acceptable if the US is the sole provider of equipment to itself and the rest of the world. I can't see any difference here between what I read above and what probably made freepers head explode when they read that piece of news tonight.

Which brings to another more important question :

Many DUers and other Democrats have been worried about the awfully detoriated US image throughout the world due to the Bush administration's arrogance. But if one believes that Europeans will change their minds because Obama or Hillary are elected, they are making a big mistake. A Very big mistake.

read here :

"With Democrats on the other hand, the expectations are going to be very high, at least on the American side. They're gonna turn towards Europe and expect to be back in the game as if nothing happened. Delusions of American Exceptionalism are very strong and in my opinion resurgent among Democrats. I can already picture Obama flying in European capitals, all proud and shining of his brand new "historical" victory, the "New JFK" and the second coming of Holy Ronald Reagan all rolled in one, and explaining in grand rhetorical flourishes how everything is going to get better thanks to American Leadership (TM). They really believe that shit."

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/2/24/105752/010
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/24/10124/7696/702/463068

the conclusion is :

"In a nutshell, Atlanticism might still have a future if both continents had serious leaders willing to listen to the other side. Unfortunately, I see that on neither side."

And unfortunately the comments such as "I hate Airbus" won't improve the situation, specially when it comes from the left

[Pavulon]

12. Boeing = Union jobs for US workers

airbus != union jobs.

Does air france fly trip sevens? Negative.

[tocqueville]

14. what's the alternative ?

isolationism ? And when Airbus will implant more and more factories in the US (due to the weak dollar) is that good for EU-workers ? Or bad for US workers ? probably not.

Face it, the issue isn't jobs, it's misplaced national pride.

And WTF does that have to do with Air France ? which BTW have Boeings as one third of its fleet (recently ordered 26 777 long haul).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France

[Trajan]

16. Yes ... If that is what you choose to call it ....

One could argue the merits of the bids themselves ... but yes: We would like to keep our decent paying, union represented jobs, well compensated jobs here in our own country when it is we the taxpayers ourselves who are footing the bill ...

We of course will defend our preference to KEEP that work here ...

It has nothing to do with Jingoism ... It has to do with bread and butter and how are families are faring ...

[polticalpout]

17. Boeing Sucks and GM Sucks don't you get it???

American workers suck...well according to a ton of DU'ers at least (not me).

[Trajan]

20. That would be fucking nonsense

That would be like saying my uncles and aunts, cousins, brothers, sisters, mother and father dont deserve a good living ....

[CRF450]

43. Exactly, its the managment thats screwing us over.

[Psephos]

24. That notion is out of fashion here among the foreign-made car buyers n/t

[KeepItReal]

26. Get your facts straight. Air France *does* fly Boeing 777's

I've seen 'em.

But don't take my word for it...

"At the end of 2002, Air France took delivery of three Boeing 747-400 ERFs (Extended Range Freighters), with a fourth last month, improving economic performance thanks to their increased payload (112 tonnes instead of 107 with the B747-200F) on longer flights without the need for refuelling stops (9,000km instead of 6,400km).

In summer 2004, Air France will have three 310-seat Boeing 777-300ERs in operation fitted with the new "Air France Travel Concept", namely l´Espace Première-First, l´Espace Affaires-Business and Tempo-coach. The first of these aircraft went into revenue service on the New York route just a few days ago.

Air France has ordered sixteen of these aircraft, which is a longer version of the 777-200 ER, of which Air France currently operates twenty-five. Although there is presently seating for 270 passengers, from 2005 onwards this will be reduced to 250 in the Air France ´New Travel Concept´ cabin layout."

http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local/toutsurairfrance/lacompagnie/flotte_principe_gestion.htm

[Pavulon]

29. You are correct, my error

I still DO NOT believe the US Air Force should fly Airbus. Boeing provides americans with jobs that pay well.

Boeing has been making this type of aircraft for a long time.

This reeks, it will be expensive to retool parts and training to service this platform.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

41. Air France does fly 777's

I have flown on them lots of times,

[Demeter]

28. I Don't Know About "Acceptable", But It Isn't Very Smart

There are some things that need to be done "in house",

(and that means food, energy, military equipment, medicine, and capital)

and Security is the reason why.

[kineneb]

34. not anti-EU at all, just concerned

It just seems like another kind of "outsourcing/offshoring." This will simply add more to our trade imbalance, and cause the US to be deeper in debt to foreign powers.

Weaponry was one of our last great manufactured exports, along with raw materials and food, which are extractive products. Not that weaponry export is in any way a good thing. But to my eyes, we have become a colony to the countries that hold our debt, just as we were a extractive resource colony to Britian in the 18th century.

..."I owe my soul to the company store."
(Sixteen Tons)

[Eugene]

18. Congress in turmoil over Air Force tanker decision - Reuters

Source: Reuters

Congress in turmoil over Air Force tanker decision
Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:23pm EST

By Kevin Drawbaugh

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Air Force decision awarding
a $35 billion aircraft contract to a team including the
European parent of Airbus landed like a bomb in Congress on
Friday, drawing howls of protest from lawmakers aligned with
the loser, America's Boeing Co (BA.N).

The Congressional delegation from the Seattle area said they
were "outraged." Kansas Republican Rep. Todd Tiahrt vowed to
seek a review of the decision "at the highest levels of the
Pentagon and Congress" in hopes of reversing it.

Boeing has big facilities in both Seattle and Wichita, which
stood to gain from the long-term project to build up to 179
aerial refueling tankers. Although Boeing was favored to win
the contract, the Air Force awarded it to a partnership
between Northrop Grumman (NOC.N) and Europe's EADS
(EAD.PA).

Conventional wisdom was running so strongly against Northrop-
EADS in some corners of Capitol Hill that Texas Sen. Kay
Bailey Hutchison's office issued a statement late on Friday
declaring Boeing the winner. It was swiftly retracted.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2925137720080301

[H8fascistcons]

19. How much $ in bribes

are going to the republicans and the Bush crime family???

[angrypoet]

21. You People

Blow me away! You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. First, Northrop Grumman is an amazing company that employees well over 100,000 people in all fifty states, which includes 10's of thousands of union employees. NG is on very strong ground with its union brothers and sisters and cares a great deal about this country and our national security. They spent a great deal of money and effort to help employees in LA. and MS. after Katrina. They spent a great deal of money and effort to help employees after the San Diego fires recently. So, first frame your answers with a little more respect to the primary contractor on this deal.

Second, the RFP work was done here in the good ole USA, employing U.S. citizens. Second, ALL planes will be assembled here in the UNITED STATES in Mobile, AL. I would naturally assume by Union workers.

You people need to stop acting like freepers and asshats and use a little common sense.

Let me clue you in to a little book titled "The World Is Flat" go read it and believe it.
If you want to survive in this new world, you have to first understand that there is competition out there and they want to feed their kids and pay their bills just like we do. If you want it to be "made in the USA" than you have it earn it. You can't just stomp your feet and whine and talk about how "anti-American" this person or that company is, get off your crybaby ass and get an education, learn a skill, move out of your comfort zone and expand your possibilities. Realize that just like the job can move, so can you. Sorry if the truth hurts but that is the world we live in and its not going away even if your close your eyes and hold your breath and click your heels together three times. This is the next industrial revolution, either change with the times or fall behind and turn to dust. Its your choice.

[spag68]

22. IMHO

There are plenty of good.highly qualified workers here. The wages in Europe are as high as they are here. Further they have universal health care, so the workers can not be blamed. By the way, I would be surprised if the Alabama plant was unionized.

[neverforget]

23. "you people" just don't understand how shipping jobs overseas is good

for Americans....

I have a problem with the US military buying foreign equipment because in a war, we are reliant on other countries to supply us, hardly an enviable position to be in logistically. I don't care if it is partly foreign built or supplied, US military equipment should be built/made/supplied here. And no the world isn't flat just because some business guys said so.

[ohio2007]

42. globalization at work. Airbus is a big industry in France so deals get made

France eyes sending troops to Afghan combat zone
PARIS (Reuters) - France may send hundreds of ground troops to east Afghanistan where NATO-led forces are fighting al Qaeda-backed insurgents, Le Monde newspaper reported on Tuesday.

It said the move would be part of a new Afghan policy being worked out by President Nicolas Sarkozy and his advisers
snip

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080226/ts_nm/france_afghan_dc;_ylt=AimbD0s3STleYgnYvU9rQpxvaA8F

coincidence?

No,
nothing to see here

[chknltl]

25. Going against popular sentiment?

You might be in for a rough ride. Judging by your post, we might be the ones in for the rough ride. Glad to have you as a fellow DUer! Welcome to the party.

:toast: for this post.

[Pavulon]

30. NG is , Airbus and EADS are not..They take money

that should be going to a us company. EADS got a helicopter contract. They seem to be having more than the normal problems with that platform.

This is a defense contract. Not your car. It is not a "free" market.

[fortyfeetunder]

33. Based on this article - was NG a front for EADS????

http://hill6.thehill.com/business--lobby/tanker-deal-may-benefit-mccain-ala.-2006-11-01.html

Tanker deal may benefit McCain, Ala.
By Roxana Tiron
Posted: 11/01/06 12:00 AM

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) played a major role in ending the notorious Boeing Air Force mid-air refueling tanker deal several years ago. McCain, who will become the chairman of the Armed Services panel next year should the GOP retain its majority in the Senate, is now stepping in again just as Air Force officials have declared the addition of a new tanker program to be their No. 1 priority.

This time, McCain’s reach and influence on the program could not only bring good fortunes to the state of Alabama, but could in some ways benefit his own 2008 presidential bid because Southern support will be essential for the GOP moderate.

Alabama has added appeal for 2008 presidential candidates because earlier this year the state legislature voted to move up the primaries to the spring. And McCain would bolster his candidacy with a strong showing in the early primaries.

Just last week, McCain appeared in Mobile, Ala. with GOP Gov. Bob Riley, who is up for reelection this year, to talk about an open competition in the tanker program. And Riley, along with the Alabama congressional delegation, worked out a deal with EADS, one of the defense giants competing for the contract. The Alabama lawmakers stand to gain from the open competition as they aim to make Mobile a magnet for aerospace business.

[MaryCeleste]

35. More of a partner

All the planes will be built in the US by NG, a heavily unionized company.

[fortyfeetunder]

39. Correction - KC-45 final assembly will be in the US.

I understand the final assembly plant has yet to be built in Mobile. The A330 airframe -- the big cahuna -- is being made in France, the final assembly is being made in Mobile. There is a difference between manufacturing and final assembly.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/29/northrup-grumman-tankers-face-markets-cx_pm_0229autofacescan04.html

"The Northrop Grumman-EADS consortium plans to perform final assembly in Mobile, Ala., but the underlying plane would mostly be built in Europe."


And regarding NG is a heavily unionized company, as compared to????
FWIW, the units of Boeing working on the 767 both mechanics and engineers are union employees:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/353313_tankereverett01.html

I am going to have fun watching the politics of this decision on the sidelines...

[MaryCeleste]

44. The rest of the system will be built in the US

There is much more to a platform than the airframe. Not sure what engines they will us, those could also be US (most airframes have several options). There are FARs in place to stop a wrapper only based approach. There would have been domestic content requirements in the RFP.

As for unions, elsewhere some claimed it would be a non union jobs which was why NGC won. All the trades at NGC are union, not sure about the engineers.

Also not sure if the engineers union at Boeing is voluntary. The people I know who work there have never said anything about being unionized. What do you know about it and is it site specific (different in Seattle that St Louis). Have any info you can share on that?

[fortyfeetunder]

46. Research for you....

I am intimately familiar with aircraft construction and modification.

I followed this dialogue as part of a workshop I took in politics and aerospace technology. So as an observer, regardless what is being said, politics dominates technology, not the other way around.

Alabama is one of the 22 "right to work" states so I doubt there is a union prevalence there. And yes that is definitely a factor in a bid.

The engines are General Electric, another strong anti-union company.

If you want to know more about the engineers union at Boeing, I think it's called SPEEA (google SPEEA and you can get it) and they have what could be considered a closed shop. Most of their membership is in Seattle, and there are units in Wichita and a few other locations in the US. The mechanics are members of the International Association of Machinists.

[MaryCeleste]

47. Thanks for the data

I am intimately familiar with DoD acquisitions and the FAR. The specs and the evaluation of proposals was done by GS-12/13/14, not the politicians, Generals or the SESers. Once the KPPs were signed off it was on autopilot through the system, and it would be hard to change the outcome. Given the timeline of this bid, it was more biased for Boeing originally than NGC.

Alabama certainly figured in the labor rates, but the lack of facilities would have raised those cost in comparison to Boeing. There are lots of things that eventually figure into rates. DCAA would have made that determination.

There may be a master contract with NGC, on a division level. I don't think there is a master contract across the company due to acquisitions. Its a fair assumption that NGC will either bring in one of the unions or acknowledge one shortly after things get started for the trades. Engineers may be a harder sell.

From the website I looked at, I am not sure the SPEEA has been certified by the NLRB or represents engineers or "operating engineers". Thanks for the pointer.

[fortyfeetunder]

48. More clarification

SPEEA represents (degreed) engineers and technical workers.

[Zorro]

45. Boeing outsources significant 777 content to foreign manufacturers

20% comes from Japan, with content from other foreign suppliers providing a significant percentage of the total aircraft.

Aircraft manufacturing has become an international collaborative effort.

[Angela Shelley]

38. Thanks angry poet for speaking out with common sense!

[trashcanistanista]

52. No, only some assembly of parts

will be shipped to Alabama to be assembled. The bulk of the work as well as making the planes will be done in France. Northrup is only a front Company for the French Airbus. They do not have extensive facilities in France. They set up the front company to get Airbus the contract.

[KeepItReal]

27. I guess it's too ridiculous to point out that the Boeing 767-based tanker wasn't the best fit...

"Gen Arthur J Lichte, commander of the US Air Force's Air Mobility Command, said the winning design had many advantages over Boeing's tanker.

"More passengers, more cargo, more fuel to offload, more patients that we can carry, more availability, more flexibility and more dependability," he said."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7272272.stm

[fortyfeetunder]

32. More patients?

If I got banged up on the front lines, I would sure feel comforted to know I was coming home in a flying gas station over enemy territory...

[MaryCeleste]

36. That not what would happen

It has some modular aspects that allow for versatility.

An injured solider would be medevaced well behind friendly lines, and once stable flown out of theater.

[McCamy Taylor]

37. NG=Scooter Libby & Paul Wolfowitz, that is all you need to know.

Both Wolfowitz and Libby have been "consultants" to NG in the past---that means that if there is Pentagon $$$ to be spent, it will flow into NG's coffers.

NeoCons stick together.

[ohio2007]

40. Huge win for Alabama

Airbus A330 jet that would be modified into a tanker at a factory to be built in Mobile, Ala. EADS recently announced that it would also assemble A330 commercial freighters in Mobile if it won the tanker competition

Airbus plant is putting americans to work with the offshored Euro jobs .

[Red1]

49. $$$

Last time I read anything about the prices, airheadbus was around 10 million cheaper (per unit) than boeing. I've worked for both, total complete cluster fucks.

Look for cost over-runs, ignored schedules and americun tax payers payin for the incompetance

[trashcanistanista]

51. This story broke quietly Friday night and I

heard it on NPR around 7:30AM Saturday morning. They reported the contract was worth 100 billion dollars over 40 years for the U.S.A.F. All of the work will be done in France with the exception of some assembly work shipped to Alabama. The assembly work is being shipped to the US because "the U.S. has less restrictions on labor than does France" another words, cheap labor. There is no agreement to keep it that way, they can ship the assembly work anywhere they want in the future. Europeans are gloating over the boost this will give to the EU economy, but in a quiet way. This has not been on mainstream news, and yesterday I could not find a confirmation. There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. Apparently it shocked the hell out of Boeing and the aeronautical engineers' union. It should shock us all.

edited to change to Alabama

[CabalPowered]

53. Didn't Boeing try and push a lease deal?

A couple years ago?

[Thothmes]

56. In addition to bribing AF contracting officers

[MaryCeleste]

57. It wasn't any contracting officer, it was Darleen Druyan