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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 10:19 PM
Original message
Ecuador orders expulsion of Colombian ambassador, mobilizes troops over raid on rebels
Source: International Herald Tribune/Associated Press

Ecuador orders expulsion of Colombian ambassador, mobilizes troops over raid on rebels
The Associated Press
Published: March 3, 2008

QUITO, Ecuador: Ecuador's President Rafael Correa on Sunday ordered the immediate expulsion of Colombia's ambassador and ordered troops to the border with Colombia over that country's strike on leftist rebels in Ecuadorean territory.

"Ecuadorean territory has been outraged and bombed by an air attack and the later incursion of (Colombian) troops," Correa said in a news conference. "I decided on the immediate expulsion of Colombia's ambassador in Ecuador," Carlos Holguin.

"Before the seriousness of the events, I have ordered the mobilization of troops to the border," Correa added.

Earlier on Sunday, Correa recalled Ecuador's ambassador from Colombia.



Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/03/america/LA-GEN-Ecuador-Colombia.php





Ecuador's President Rafael Correa







Alvaro Uribe and the man who gives him his foreign aid package
millions and millions and millions of US taxpayers' dollars annually.
Third largest foreign aid recipient in the world.
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is so not good.
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. I think this stuff is more about drugs cartel power than anything else.
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. There's a lot of oil in Columbia
and Ecuador and Venezuela.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. US taxpayers' dollars annually. Third largest foreign aid recipient in the world. and MURDERERS
Edited on Sun Mar-02-08 10:30 PM by angstlessk
OF THE MOST UNION WORKERS IN THE WORLD...what great company boosh keeps!!!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. I believe we are about to see a war between Colombia and Venezuela-Ecuador.
Either that or Uribe will have to eat some crow.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Very possibly. I could see that as a workaround for Bush ...
... being unable to directly change the leadership in Venezuela. Can't wait to see how the threat of such a conflict spikes oil prices on Monday.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I don't doubt Bush has supported some provocations.
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 12:50 AM by bemildred
I have doubts he wanted to get a hot war going. Colombia could have it's hands full with FARC, Ecuador, and Venezuela all at war with it. Colombia is already divided and disfunctional and the US is already broke and pretty busy elsewhere. It is difficult terrain for conventional armed forces. Chavez seems hot to trot, and one could see how both Chavez and Correa would be happier with a regime change in Colombia. Chavez has lots of money and new military equipment and he might feel that a little war would be just the thing to consolidate his political position. He is a self-described revolutionary and has military experience. The US and Colombia have engaged in and/or allowed numerous provocations already. Things could get out of hand. I don't know what is going to happen, but it is noticeable already that none of the principals seems in a hurry to calm things down.

Edit: and if the parties get serious about mobilization of forces, you can almost bet that they will not be sent home quietly.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. it could become the Falkland Islands war II
The US would use a excuse to invade Venezuela and Ecuador and keep the military base there.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Love to know they are gonna get the man power to do that.
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ArfDogMNO Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. the excuse to invade?
Could you perhaps provide intelligent speculation on which US military divisions would be even *available* for what you describe?

You do understand that if the troops don't exist, you cannot just 'invade' with phantasms?

The USAF base at Manta (replaced Howard AFB) is closing iirc, aside from non-official bases, what 'keep the military base there' bases are you referring to?
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. OK, Let me speculate
Let the colombian army do the dirty job on land, send the Nimitz and Reagan carriers to provide air support, done deal. Then occupied the military bases in south america.

US Southern Command
United States law allows up to 500 US military personnel and 300 civilian contract personnel to be deployed in Colombia at any given time. According to US officials, as of late 2002 there were on average about 120 American pilots and other private contractors in Colombia's anti-narcotics program at any one time. They provide counterinsurgency instruction, maintain listening outposts, or monitor air traffic from any of five US-built rural radar stations, among various other tasks. American personnel serve as liaison officers at the Colombian Joint Intelligence Center in the southern base of Tres Esquinas, which the US helped set up.

Military personnel also are deployed in Peru at three U.S.-built radar stations, in addition to hundreds of troops helping to refurbish an air base in Manta, Ecuador, and to construct several military bases in Bolivia. The United States also runs military surveillance flights from the Caribbean islands of Aruba and Curacao. No information is available about the number of CIA and other intelligence personnel operating in the region.

Ecuador seems to have moved into the fore-front of integrated US military planning and operations. New facilities have been established at the port city of Manta, Special Force units from the US Southern Command operate alongside some 5,000 Ecuadorian troops of the 19th Napo and 21st Condor Jungle Infantry Brigades on the borders of Colombia, while other specialist US forces operate radar stations tracking the drug-cartel's aircraft and man secret listening posts on behalf of the NSA to monitor communications.

The US military mission occupies a small building on the sprawling Fuerte Tiuna military base, Venezuela's Pentagon. In August 2001, the Venezuelan armed forces announced that the mission would be shut down. The government said it needed the office space, but observers here took it as a clear sign that Chavez wanted to distance his generals from their American allies.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/southcom.htm




Ecuador wants a swap: the U.S. base at Manta, Ecuador for a base in Miami, Florida.
Is Ecuador making a military or political point?

Ecuador’s leftist President Rafael Correa said Washington must let him open a military base in Miami if the United States wants to keep using an air base on Ecuador’s Pacific coast.

Correa has refused to renew Washington’s lease on the Manta air base, set to expire in 2009. U.S. officials say it is vital for counter-narcotics surveillance operations on Pacific drug-running routes.

“We’ll renew the base on one condition: that they let us put a base in Miami — an Ecuadorean base,” Correa said in an interview during a trip to Italy.

“If there’s no problem having foreign soldiers on a country’s soil, surely they’ll let us have an Ecuadorean base in the United States.”

The U.S. embassy to Ecuador says on its Web site that anti-narcotics flights from Manta gathered information behind more than 60 percent of illegal drug seizures on the high seas of the Eastern Pacific last year.

The failure to renew the lease at Manta would be a blow to U.S. drug interdiction efforts. That should be enough to make anti-drug warriors happy.

Of course, the Ecuadorians are making a political point. And of course, one has to wonder what the base in Miami would add to Ecuadorian security–other than help prevent the import of illegal Gloria Estaban CDs. It’s not like Ecuador–not the richest of countries–couldn’t use the money from the base rent.

Might Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez be taking up the slack on that point? Read more http://uk.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUKADD25267520071022

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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Uh, the Colombian military can't even defeat the FARC
Good luck going up against a real army. That's a little tougher than massacring peasants and labor leaders.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. agree n/t
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
60. not really, the FARC doesn't march large numbers of forces for a traditional battle
n/t
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. I don't, unless Colombia is attacked first
n/t
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Colombia already attacked first.
The question is whether Ecuador and Venezuela and FARC want to pick up the gauntlet, so to speak. If they do, I expect that Colombia will indeed be "attacked first". Relations between the three countries clearly have deteriorated a great deal in the last couple years. I can remember when Chavez and Uribe were at pains to be nice to each other. Now they are calling each other names and calling each other out.

But as a practical matter, it is not a difficult matter to arrange a casus belli if one desires it, for either party.

The interesting thing here as all of the parties seem - at least in public - to want to turn up the heat. I haven't gone through the news today yet, so that might or might not continue.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. you really think Ecuador and Venezuela will attack Colombia?
you would then expect Colombia to respond in kind of course.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Not "will", "might".
And yes, Colombia will "respond in kind", they would not have much choice about it.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I think its a big show on the part of Venezuela and Ecuador frankly
hopefully that is what it is.

although this will likely lead to less cooperation with Colombia to prevent the FARC from operating in bordering countries. Then again, this incident seems to confirm the FARC operating in those countries and they weren't getting cooperation from Ecuador and Venezuela. Also, it certainly exposed once and for all the sympathies of Chavez to the FARC.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Could be.
Not like blustering and saber-rattling would be a new thing in politics. I was mostly taken by the mobilization that has been ordered. Usually once you get a full mobilization going, it's hard to say "never mind." Makes you look weak and wishy-washy.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. I'm sorry for the families who were expecting the liberation of more hostages
can't blame Venezuela or Ecuador for that.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. you can blame the FARC though n/t
n/t
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. or Uribe BTW
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. the FARC are the ones holding the hostages
hello???
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Uribe is the one protecting Colombian citizens
is his responsibility to end the arm conflict in any way he can. He was elected to do that not to escalate the conflict to the international arena. Plan Colombia supposed to give him enough money to end crime and guerrillas, is he more than a failure?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. you should ask the Colombians who elected him and then re-elected him
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 01:14 PM by Bacchus39
Colombians want an end to the FARC that's for sure. seems like he is taking measures to end the FARC wouldn't you say?? I mean are you that naive that you think the FARC is going to cooperate with their own demise?
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. tell me of any arm conflict in latin america that has been won by a government with out a peace ..
agreement.

since the 80's no government has wont a conflict with out negotiating peace agreements, el Salvador, Nicaragua you name it. does Uribe has a peace plan?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. umm... yes he does. where have you been over the past few years???????
the demobilization plan was agreed to by the AUC paramilitaries who have demobilized over the past several years. the ELN rebels also had agreed I believe and so did one or two other small rebel factions.

the FARC has NOT agreed. The plan includes amnesty for the rank and file
on both sides who simply lay down their arms. Leaders of these groups have to agree to reduced prison sentences.

now has it worked out perfectly, well no because the FARC hasn't even agreed.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. That support my point, Uribe won't win with out a peace agreement
I feel so sorry for the colombian people that Uribes ego is so centrist that he does not want a peace agreement if it does not portrait him as a hero.
I'd rather see peace there.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. a capitulation is not a win
the Colombian people overwhelmingly support Uribe and reject the FARC.

former president Pastrana ceded huge amounts of territory to the FARC and no peace agreement came from that. the rebels did not live up to the bargain.

you are naively assuming that the FARC would actually keep their word. thats already been tried before in Colombia and it was a failure.
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ArfDogMNO Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #49
72. Sorry, if you go and hold non-aligned civilian hostages, you
don't get to then expect for the blame for you holding said hostages to fall on the leader of the organization you are trying to kill.

FARC takes and holds hostages. FARC makes the decision every day to not release them. Don't you think you can give FARC credit for their actions?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I was wondering if that was behind this somewheres.
I thought it might be embarrassing for Uribe to have them dribbling out in this way under the auspices of Chavez. I know he gets domestic pressure to do more to get the hostages released, and there is a lot of dissembling about how you can't talk with terrorists and so on. So to have Chavez getting them released with lots of media hype had to be pinching his gonads in domestic political terms. So one theory I had for the killing in Ecuador is that it was meant to put a stop to the hostage release media circus by pissing off FARC and killing the FARC negotiator guy.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. I agree, Uribe has been a great failure to rescue those hostages
He is been looking for a scape goat and distraction from the issue.
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. no, this is not good
foreboding a likely additional conflict, there's no end to it since * is still in WH, and I believe he'll remain, oh shit, Thanks Judi Lynn, I think.
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hope this spreads throught the region
Not so much the military build-up (that worries me to no end - it may just give an excuse to attack Venezuela and/or Ecuador), but a strong signal to Columbia that an "Israel in Latin America" (as Chavez termed it) that implements long-distance assassination as an instrument of policy will not be tolerated, like withdrawing ambassadors.

Unfortunately, that probably will not stop the Uribe-Bush crime family from doing this sort of thing again.
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ArfDogMNO Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. How long have you been a FARC supporter?
Have you monetarily supported them?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Non sequitur.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. "When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." –Dom Helder Camara,
:+
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ArfDogMNO Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #34
71. This is a fair statement. Many do not understand that the reason
socialist movements gain such power in the third world is as much as anything hunger, as well as the fact that traditional 'republican (e.g. elected) governments tend to be oligarchic and exploitative of the working class in a way most americans just cannot grasp (labor laws? lol). I live in central america, and I get it. many Americans may still tend to think in terms of the Warsaw Pact when socialism/communism is brought up, and they are wrong. Here, the issue is 'i work 60 hour weeks and cannot feed my family.'

FARC gets no credit for any of this. They are an international narco-guerilla army, a huge business (narcotics and who knows what else), and more of a career than a 'temporary' insurgency. I dispute anyone who considers FARC along the same lines as FSLN, FMLN, from central american movements, etc.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hasn't hit the oil futures yet.
However asian stocks are down between 2.5-4.5% right now.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
10. I would imagine that our msm will now start to deamonize Ecuador's President Rafael Correa. Never
heard of him before, but I know how our msm works.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. He is left-wing too.
The corporate media already hates him.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. They'll think of something, you can be sure! By the way, I read the media in his country is also
completely right-wing controlled. However he has become as deeply popular with a large part of the population was achieved through his own hard work and results when he was Finance Minister.

Just took a quick google run to grab a little material for background. This one was written during the last Presidential campaign, before he won the election:
~snip~
The 43-year-old Correa began the campaign as a rank outsider, a former finance minister who boasted of his friendship with Venezuela's Chávez and whom few gave any chance of ever reaching the presidency. Nonetheless, his platform and charisma made him the most talked-about candidate on the campaign trail. Born into a lower-middle class Guayaquíl family, he taught economics at a Quito university and studied in Chicago and Belgium before a four-month stint as finance minister under current president Alfredo Palacio. But it is his planned political reforms, rather than his economic proposals, which hogged the limelight during the election campaign.

"We don't have political parties here, what we have are organised mafias who defend vested interests," Correa said halfway through his efficiently run campaign. Presenting himself as "a humanist, leftist Christian," he espouses what he calls "a civic revolution." Dressed in the trademark lime green of his Alianza País movement, Correa's main campaign prop was a belt he brandished, promising to "give a whipping" to corruption and traditional politicians (his name, Correa, means "belt" in Spanish). This is a symbol of the deep-rooted shake-up of the political system which he plans to instigate as president, starting with the establishment of a constituent assembly which would rewrite the constitution.

"We're looking at a major crisis of the political parties. The Ecuadorian people have had enough of them and the parties only have themselves to blame," says sociologist Simon Pachano of the Latin American Faculty for Social Sciences (Flacso). "Ecuadorians are not only anti-party right now, but they are against the whole system. So a candidate who presents himself as being against the parties is going to have a great deal of support."

Correa has also woven a fierce nationalist economic thread into his anti-establishment political discourse. His stormy term as finance minister, during which he maintained an ongoing dispute with the International Monetary Fund, is testament to his attitude towards the international financial community. He rejects outright the prospect of negotiating a bilateral trade deal with the United States, or allowing the United States military to keep its air-force base in Ecuador's coastal city of Manta. As for the oil sector, a president Correa would seek to reduce the profits of international firms operating in Ecuador. He has also openly mulled defaulting on the country's foreign debt.
More:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-protest/ecuador_election_4005.jsp

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
November 29, 2006

~snip~
Unlike Chavez, Correa does not come from a military background but grew up in a middle class family; the young politician also dresses impeccably. He got his doctorate in economics from the University of Illinois and is a follower of left wing economist and Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz.

To his credit, Correa spent a year volunteering in a highland town called Zumbahua and speaks Quichua, an indigenous language. Natives from Zumbahua remember Correa as a man who walked two or three hours to remote villages in a poncho and broken shoes to give classes.

Correa pursued an amusing campaign. During rallies, he would bounce on stage to his campaign anthem, set to the tune of Twisted Sister's "We're Not Going to Take It." As the music blared, Correa would break out a brown leather belt, which he would flex along to the music.

For Correa, the belt became the chief slogan of his campaign: "Dale Correa." In Spanish, the phrase means "Give Them the Belt." Correa promised to use that belt to whip Ecuador's politicians into shape.

Correa campaigned on pledges to prioritize social spending over repaying debt. He has even stated that the Andean country might want to default. He also declared that he would renegotiate contracts with foreign oil producers doing business in the country.

Correa says he wants to increase funds for the poor and opposes a free trade deal with the U.S. "We are not against the international economy," Correa has stated, "but we will not negotiate a treaty under unequal terms with the United States."

Correa, too, has nothing but contempt for George Bush.
More:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11502
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Thanks for the info.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. How about mobilizing the troops for expulsion of rebels?
But I am not naive enough to think that would ever happen.

I dislike Uribe and he does get backing from Bush. It is disgusting. But this is South America and corruption comes from both sides (from the right and from the left) in the region. For example, tolerating criminals is expected when there is FARC money and support involved in the mix .

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yah, it's a good thing we aren't corrupt like all those foreigners.
No bribery, tolerating criminals, and back room deals for us, no sirree!
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. I never compared US politics with South American politics in my post
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 10:31 AM by MrWiggles
Although I do perceive the US left being much less corrupt than the left in South America. But I was not comparing "us versus them" in my post. You are the one starting the comparison while ignoring my point.

I don't know why you wrote your reply as if I don't think there is "no bribery, tolerating criminals, and back room deals for us." :shrug:

I wrote what I wrote not because I am an American (an outsider) speaking of some "foreigners." I wrote what I wrote because I was born as one of those "foreigners" and I follow the politics close enough to come to my own conclusions. I lived it and I happen to know some of its dynamics. When I left the country where I was born it was still in transition from a dictatorship. The far right fell hard and I thought corruption would go to an end, but they were only replaced by corrupt politician on the left. What a disappointment, but that's just the reality.

Thanks for ignoring my point, BTW!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. I know you didn't, but I did! That's the point. People in glass houses should not throw stones.
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 10:37 AM by bemildred
I perceive the US as being a lot more corrupt than most other nations. I am quite happy to bring up "us vs them." We have so much greater scope for theft and graft than most other countries. The whole world is our playground. One man's corruption is another man's "business" or "free markets".
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. in the last 25 years all countries in latin america were RW, until Chavez of course. n/t
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. That's not accurate
Unless you say someone who is not a Hugo Chavez is right wing (like Lula and Fernando Henrique Cardoso in Brazil).

In Brazil, for example, it is not accurate to say that any of the presidents after the dictatorship were members of the right. Or at least explain what made them right wing?
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. I mean that in the last 25 years RW government have fail to provide
the progress and ending the poverty in latin america. most of those governments obeyed the economical reforms that were dictated by the IMF. Many of those reforms were reverted in Chile and Brazil thats were you can see the difference.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
68. I don't understand your response in the context of the conversation
Can you explain it better so I know what you are talking about? The economic policies of Lula today is very similar to what has been put in place by the first elected president of Brazil since the fall of the dictatorship (Fernando Collor de Melo). And pretty much a continuation of Fernando Henrique Cardoso's economic policies.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. if only Colombia would cooperate with their neighbors
it could be feasible, but colombia is not helping.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I agree, Colombia is not helping
It was the wrong thing to do. But Colombia would be very pleased if Hugo Chavez, for example, offered to cooperate in kicking the FARC out of Venezuela. But the problem is that Hugo Chavez has nothing but praise for some of the FARC thugs. Including the one leader who was just killed.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Raul Reyes
Was the FARC representative negotiating the hostage releases, but I guess it was more important to kill him then to continue to free more hostages.

"Colombia and Venezuela have been locked in a diplomatic crisis since Uribe sought in November to halt Chavez's efforts to mediate a prisoner swap. The FARC has since freed six hostages to delegates of Chavez, including four released last week."

Maybe Uribe figured that the only way to stop the hostage negotiations was to kill Reyes, causing the FARC to stop any more releases.
Uribe and the US have done such a great job in getting hostages freed, I'm sorry that was Chavez wasn't it?

Besides, Uribe and the FARC have issues, since the FARC killed his father in an attempted kidnapping.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. ummm... the FARC are the ones who took the hostages to begin with
they could just let them go you know. duh!!!
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. when the colombian government fail to protect the civil population
of course.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I have no idea what you are trying to say. the FARC have been around 40 plus year
their mission is not to display security weaknesses in Colombia by staging kidnappings, bombings, and murders and then yell, I told you so!! you can't protect the population from us so we are going to keep up terror tactics until you can.


your "logic" defies me. the goal of the FARC is to take control of Colombia
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Both sides are wrong, the narco elites want to keep control, the FARCs want to control
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. Uribe government could just call Venezuela or Ecuador government
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 01:21 PM by AlphaCentauri
Uribe knows he would get some help, just look at this colombian website http://www.fac.mil.co/index.php?idcategoria=11491&facmil_2007=fe2958d2bfc1a59

Venezuela has been extraditing FARCS members, why Uribe wants to make things difficult?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Thanks for pointing that out. Too bad these guys don't keep up! n/t
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. I'm just not picking sides in this conflict between two wrong sides
Anybody who does pick a side in this is the person who does not "keep up" or turn a blind eye because he/she might ideologically closer to one of the sides. Who here is advocating for Uribe and saying that he is right? This situation is more complex than most here make out to be.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I have no side either, I just like to point to the facts other want to ignore
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 01:47 PM by AlphaCentauri
to me peace is precious gem for Colombia, I don't like to see cheer leader of violence disseminating their crap.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. My answer was not to your post
but to Judi Lynn's.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. oop!
:blush:
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
26. The pic with him and Putin was eerily similar
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 10:33 AM by calipendence




Looks like they were in the same truck too.

Here's Bush's other older "Putin tour" tour pics...







Also it was interesting that James Zogby on his Viewpoint show this last week just interviewed Ivonne A-Baki who is currently the head of the Andean Parliament in Ecuador and who previously ran for president there earlier. She's one of many South American politicians of Lebanese descent (including the infamous Carlos Menem of Argentina). They talked about that aspect and mentioned Menem's name too, though not in a critical fashion the way they should have.

Also mentioned Chavez and his "movement" being a "problem" for the U.S. Was hard to tell whether she was against Chavez or not or just sympathetic to the "problems" that have lead to him gaining power. I'll have to watch it again and see.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
39. Who does Colombia think it is? Israel?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. I believe we are looking at Oil War II: South America, planned by Donald Rumsfeld
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 12:32 PM by Peace Patriot
First, consider this little noticed Rumsfeld op-ed in the WaPo three months ago...

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

Remember the "Project for a New American Century"? NeoCons are not shy about announcing their war plans. It's just that our corporate media is so supine, so in the thrall of war profiteers, that it fails to cry the alarm, and our politicians, of course, are all for the corporate oil wars. Now that Iran has been denied to the oil warriors (by China, and because it is well defended), the target countries are Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador and Argentina.

Venezuela and Ecuador are members of OPEC and have lots and lots of oil. Bolivia has some oil, and lots of gas (and a simmering rightwing separatist movement in the gas/oil rich provinces that the Bush Junta is funding and arming). Argentina just had a big oil find, but, equally importantly, is a tough, leftist ally of the other three. These countries form the nexus of the Boliviaran Revolution--a grass roots democracy and social justice movement aimed at South American self-determination and independence from U.S./first world domination. They are allied in various ways with other leftist governments--in Brazil, Uruguay, Chile and Nicaragua. Indeed, the leftist social justice movement has swept the continent. It IS the future. This is the problem that Rumsfeld has set himself to solve, on behalf of Exxon Mobil, Occidental Petroleum, & co., and assorted U.S. war profiteers.

All four countries oppose the corrupt, murderous U.S. "war on drugs"--a military/police state boondoggle worth billions to U.S. war profiteers--in addition to believing that their countries' oil and other resources should benefit the people who live there. These leftist policies are like a crucifix to vampires like Rumsfeld. They hiss, they turn green, they bare their fangs--they know that their power is critically threatened by them.

Hugo Chavez is one of the most innovative and certainly the most visible of the leaders of this democracy movement. He has been a Bushite target for some time, and no effort has been spared in promulgating the total lie that he is a "dictator." I won't go into the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE that he is not. Suffice it to say, that, if Donald Rumsfeld asserts it, it is not true.

Rumsfeld names Venezuela as his target, but does not limit his plan. I believe the above four countries are his target area--and he means to clean out this hotbed of democracy in the Andes region, regain global corporate predator control of the Andes oil fields, and re-install fascist dictatorships that will do the bidding of Exxon Mobil et al. The Bush Junta has already tried to topple the Chavez government, in several ways, including support of an outright coup attempt in 2002--and they have failed. Rumsfeld urges a more aggressive approach: a) economic warfare (to destabilize the country and foment civil chaos); and b) the U.S. should then act "swiftly" in support of "friends and allies" in South America (fascist thugs planning coups within these countries, and/or the fascist government of Colombia, a Bush Cartel client state, the recipient of billions in Bush/U.S. military aid).

Exxon Mobil just fired the first shot in this war (initiated just prior to Rumsfeld's op-ed, and recently come to fruition): A few weeks ago, Exxon Mobil took legal action to freeze $12 billion in Venezuela's assets (in a dispute over Venezuela's 60% share in Venezuela's own oil--a deal that Norway's Statoil, France's Total, British BP and even Chevron have agreed to). A move like this, against a country--and a good democracy at that--has only one purpose: destabilization. It is the sort of kneecapping threat that gangsters use to terrorize neighborhoods. 'You don't pay us our protection money, we set fire to your store.' (Note: The fascist elite in Venezuela--funded by our tax dollars, in USAID-NED and other funds--is meanwhile busy creating food shortages with hording and stirring up other trouble.)

Part 2 of Rumsfeld's plan--how to get U.S. boots on the ground in the Andes region (outside of Colombia)--is trickier. That plan is in motion--with yesterday's raid over the border into Ecuador--a deliberately provocative and unnecessary act. Colombia (Bush client state) BOMBED the site IN ECUADOR, invaded a camp where FARC guerillas were SLEEPING (according to Ecuador President Correa's account), and killed them all--17 people.

The context of this hostile action are the recent efforts by Venezuelan President Chavez, the President of France, several other South American leaders (Brazil, Argentina), the families of FARC hostages, and the six hostages who have been released (negotiated by Chavez, in spite of every effort of the Bushites to sabotage it), to broker a peace settlement in Colombia's FORTY+ YEAR civil war. Peace is the last thing in the world that Rumsfeld & co. want to see in the Andes region.

Further context: Rafael Correa, President of Ecuador, pledged not to renew the U.S. military lease on the Manta (Ecuador) air base. The lease expires in 2009. This gives Rumsfeld & co.'s plans for destabilization of the region, toppling of its democratic governments, and regaining control of the oil, special urgency. Rumsfeld also needs his "unitary executive" Bush to take the "swift" U.S. action that Rumsfeld wants--direct U.S. military intervention in the region. Bush, of course, is out of office at the end of the year (hopefully), and it will be trickier to get a Democrat--or even McCain--to undertake NEW U.S. military action, in this totally dubious cause. (Clinton is gung-ho "Chavez is a tyrant" material; Obama is iffy; McCain is a Bushite oil warrior--but any of them might balk at Rumsfeld/Exxon Mobil directives. Only Bush/Cheney are reliable--partly because they need global corporate predator protection from war crimes trials.)

So the time is NOW--from Rumsfeld's and Exxon Mobile's point of view. I expect that, next, we're going to see turmoil in the rightwing separatist movement in Bolivia. That could give Rumsfeld & co. a fascist launching pad further to the south (re: Argentina?), and, at the least, it could cripple one of the Bolivarian allies. The rich rural landowners are trying to split off the provinces where the gas and oil are, from the central government of Evo Morales, the first indigenous president of Bolivia (in a country with an overwhelmingly indigenous population), to deny benefit of those resources to the poor majority. These rightwing landowners have militias, kill peasant farmers, and have staged all sorts of violent protests and incidents to disrupt the county. It is a simmering problem. And Rumsfeld and Bushites like simmering problems.

There are dozens of "tip of the iceberg" incidents in South America, exemplifying the Bush Junta's visible and covert activities to undermine and topple these democratic countries, and dozens of facts (involving large financial interests) that I could cite as well, for their core motives. But, in view of the Iraq War--and their failed plan to nuke Iran--the main one is clear: oil. The Bushites have been doing everything they can to drive a wedge between these oil rich countries, break up their alliance, and destroy their democratic governments--and they have failed. Now they seem quite geared up to try outright war, and are looking to stage the circumstances to get this war started NOW. They won't be able to finish it. But it will be like a hand grenade tossed into the lap of the next President--in fact, they might toss into the middle of the November election, to sabotage a Democratic antiwar candidacy (Obama) or to make Clinton at least uncomfortable and defensive (eroding her potential base).

With Venezuela and Ecuador up in arms over border violations, and sending troops to their borders with Colombia, the situation is ripening--maybe not fully ripened. Someone upthread objected that the U.S. has no troops to spare, to send to South America. That may be true. But it has some military forces there already (for the "war on drugs"), and it has battleships, other war craft and the air force--and it still has the spy base in Manta, Ecuador. And Rumsfeld has the entire Colombian military (armed and funded by our tax dollars--billions of them)--which is obviously at his beck and call--PLUS Blackwater mercenaries (active in Colombia, training and recruiting "for Iraq"), rightwing paramilitary death squads in Colombia, in border areas, and no doubt secreted inside Venezuela (recent evidence of it) and other countries, and homegrown paramilitaries and militias in several countries.

This is a THEORY. I want to stress that. It's what I'm seeing, putting various puzzle pieces together--that what Rumsfeld is doing, in his "retirement," is instigating Oil War II. A theory--if it's a good one--helps you predict what will happen. I've been predicting this kind of trouble in the Andes region for months, on the basis of this theory--and here it is--just the sort of "hot" situation in which Rumsfeld's "swift" U.S. action in support of "friends and allies" in South America would be activated. And this follows an economic destabilization move, by Exxon Mobil, as Rumsfeld lays out.

I also think Rumsfeld & co. will fail. The trend in South America is overwhelmingly for social justice, democracy and peace. This movement can be disrupted--and grief and suffering inflicted on people--but it cannot be stopped. And the new leftist governments covering the continent are too strongly allied, to be easily divided. The most vulnerable is probably Bolivia--with its Bushite-supported, rightwing separatist movement--and I have long thought that that would be Rumsfeld's back door into the Andes, to topple Venezuela and the others. And that could still certainly be part of the long term war plan. But it looks like the threat of peace in Colombia's civil war was a more immediate danger to Rumsfeld's plans, and had to be dealt with, by instigating violence in Colombia's border areas with Ecuador and Venezuela. Whatever Rumsfeld's plan is, please understand that the FARC is just a circumstance that the Bushites are using--to arm Colombia, to militarize the region, to justify torture and slaughter--not just of FARC guerrillas, but of many others--union leaders, small peasant farmers, political leftists, human rights workers, journalists--and to maintain forces in the region to regain control of the oil.

Venezuela has a vital interest in peace in Colombia. For one thing, there are many thousands of refugees from Colombia in Venezuela, fled from the civil war. The civil war interferes with lawful trade--and regional trade is big on Venezuela's agenda. And Chavez is, of course, well aware of the Bush Junta's motives in militarizing Colombia. So he put himself at risk as a peace negotiator, getting some hostages released. The Bushites tried to sabotage that, and failed. Now they are doing this--a major sabotage of the hopes for peace. In my opinion, these are the preliminaries to Oil War II.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. is Chavez complying with the plan by Rumsfeld by threatening Colombia?
by the way, the article by Dumbsfeld pushes for a free trade agreement with Colomba. where does the Oil War come in??
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. I see the hand of the CIA
using its client state, Columbia, for more S.American disruptions. There are many more fingers in that pie than we can see...

someone must have messed with the flow of drugs and money...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
63. I wonder what kind of bombs were used on that camp.
Castro seems to think this was US backed.

Castro blames U.S. for rising tensions between Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia

The Associated Press
Published Monday March 3rd, 2008

HAVANA - Fidel Castro is blaming the United States for bringing Colombia to the brink of war with neighbours Venezuela and Ecuador.

The former Cuban leader's comments, presented in a lengthy essay on other topics, echo accusations by his friend, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, that Washington is to blame for the crisis.

In the essay, published today in the Communist party newspaper Granma, Castro says the trumpets of war are a clear consequence of the "genocidal plans of the Yankee empire."

The crisis erupted after the U.S.-backed government of Colombian made a military incursion into Ecuador on the weekend in a operation that killed a top leftist guerrilla leader and more than a dozen of his comrades.

http://www.canadaeast.com/rss/article/228855
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
51. Wars and rumors of wars.
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