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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:05 PM
Original message
Democratic party officials cancel Michigan's convention rooms
Source: Los Angeles Times

Looks like the Democratic National Committee means business in its ongoing stalemated dispute with Florida and Michigan.

According to our colleague Christopher Reynolds over at The Times' travel blog, the committee has canceled the hotel accommodations for the 177-member Michigan delegation to the Democratic National Convention in Denver in late August. Just try finding that many rooms at the last minute during a political convention.

And the DNC never even made any reservations for Florida's defiant delegation.

Both states have been outlawed because they naughtily scheduled their primaries before Feb. 5 in violation of party rules. Since Hillary Clinton has claimed victory in both places anyway, surprisingly, she'd like to count them in her total. Equally surprisingly, since Barack Obama's name wasn't even on the Michigan ballot, he'd rather not count the Clinton votes.

To be continued....

Read more: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/03/democraticnatlc.html
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. The criteria will be, sure you can be seated, if you sleep in your car!! Ha ha
Dean is not backing down.
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pbca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good, the whole Michigan, Florida thing is officially over n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Looks like we are all running towards our respective bunkers
I expect to see a caravan of RVs with Fl and MI plates parked around the convention center.

No wonder the MSM, and McCain, are salivating at the prospects of a fractured convention.
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KaryninMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Amazing. Disenfranchised by our own State party officials.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 01:35 PM by KaryninMiami
On the other hand, I'd rather they didn't count our delegates at all rather then having them count towards Hillary automatically. It sucks either way.

But I LOVE your Obama banner in Hebrew!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Thank you for placing the blame where it belongs.
NT!

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catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
30. I thought MI was thinking about caucusing

Is that idea dead?
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Oreegone Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good for Dr. Dean
That is why you have party rules. So at any states whim they can't suddenly change the rules in hopes of getting the favorite candidate in an early race positioning. Personally I would like to see it done by lottery.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. PB Post political guy, Randy Schultz said the same thing, and he's rarely off...n/t
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. I truly hope this marks the end of this problem. nm
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pennylane100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Carl Levin has mentioned the New Hampshire also broke the rules.
Anyone have any background on that.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I heard him say that too. I don't understand. If, that's the case, then
would Iowa be at fault too? All I can see is that Iowa and NH were earlier than normal but not out of sequence.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The original reform plan was
Caucus, caucus, primary, primary.

Was supposed to go Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Carolina. New Hampshire moved up their primary to be before Nevada's caucus. South Carolina also moved up their primary, but that was to go before Florida, not one of the "agreed" early states.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. That would be a hell of a spectacle.
Bill Nelson, Karen Thurman, and the rest of these bozo's getting tear gassed and pepper sprayed, demonstrating outside the convention.

:puke: :wtf: :spank: :spank: :spank: :rofl: :rofl: :hide: :wow: :nopity: :nopity:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent. They knew the rules, they agreed to them, it's done.
No cheating for Clinton!

If I lived there, though, I'd be pissed at those who agreed to this beforehand (and not those who believe changing the rules mid-contest is wrong).

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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I do live there
and I'm pissed at the DNC for enabling Iowa and New Hampshire's bullying of the candidates.

:shrug: I'll vote for the nominee, though, no matter which one it is. I don't know if I can say the same for all Michiganders, though.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. How do IA and NH "bully" candidates?
Not starting a fight, just curious....that's one I haven't heard yet.
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MiaCulpa Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. The DNC cancelled the room block, but...
The MDP picked it up.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Can you give us a little more about the Michigan Dems picking up the hotel rooms?
Thank you greatly.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. All your basis are belong us. n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. I don't see how the Democratic Convention can proceed without representation
of the Democrats in Florida and Michigan. The only precedent for it, in living memory, was the fight over the seating of an all-white delegation from Mississippi in the midst of the civil rights movement--which was resolved, as I recall, by a compromise in the first convention at which the white delegation was challenged--a not very satisfactory compromise (the whites were seated, and the blacks were permitted to "observe")--then the requirement that the next convention have a mixed delegation with representatives of black citizens. Black Mississippians had no representation at the first convention, and some representation at the next one, four years later. (1964 to 1968--not sure of the years.)

Is no one working on re-doing the Florida and Michigan votes? Perhaps the cancellation of the hotel rooms was simply to put pressure on people to solve the problem.
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1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I used to respect Dean...never again. He's just like every
other Bush lackey,and crook. My vote will not count.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Og good........DNC screws up their own election
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. What does that mean?...eom
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1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes, Dean wants the pubs to win. He and the DLC chose these
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 08:32 PM by 1620rock
two candidates. Not we the people.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. I don't know what "we" you puport to represent, but its not me.
And its not the record number of people turning out to cast their vote.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. As of yesterday, neither Mi nor FL had presented a plan to the DNC
to redo their primaries. Dean isn't a magician.

State party leaders messed up and now you want to blame Dean? That's ridiculous.
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Hatchling Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. Way to cut off our nose to spite our face.
Yeah the states screwed up, but the voters aren't going to understand that. All they know is they got disenfranchised. So to hell with the Democrats in the GE. We need some kind of solution that doesn't threaten Obama.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
24. "they naughtily scheduled their primaries before Feb. 5"

Why did they do this ?????
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. I read that the benefits of being an early primary state include not only...
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 08:06 AM by DeepModem Mom
ordinarily, a larger say in the process, and an influx of money to the state from all the hoopla -- but federal funds flowing to the state, encouraged by would-be candidates in Congress in order to curry favor with local bigwigs. Why they did it in the face of clear words from both parties that they would not be seated at the Conventions, I don't know.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Thanks DeepModem Mom

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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. you can bet yo ass that once hrc becomes the nominee dean's
ass is fired.....gone out the door...goodbye, good luck and thanks for fucking this up....
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I guess we'll have to wait and see in 2016
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. What if Florida and Michigan REFUSE to recognize Obama as the Democratic Candidate???
All either state has to do is say that since the Democrats did NOT recognize their ELECTED delegates, those Delegates can pick the nominee to run whoever they choose to run under the name of the Democratic party in their state. If the National Party picks someone else, he or she will either have to run in as a third party candidate (If permitted, given both states had Democratic Primaries, which generally excludes anyone who ran in the primaries from running a the third party Candidate) or as a Write in Candidate AGAINST the Democratic nominee for that state.

Now what I foresee is Obama getting the National Nomination. At that point HRC has to make a decision, to run in Florida and Michigan or stand aside. I see her standing aside, but I also see both states going forward to force the Democratic National Committee to recognize their Delegates in the Future. Thus the Florida and Michigan Delegates may pick one of their own to be the Democratic nominee in both states (And this will probably be two different candidates, one from the Michigan Delegation for Michigan, the other from the Florida Delegation for Florida). Come the fall I see both States going Democratic, but NOT Obama. At that point Obama will have a choice, either agree to recognize any delegation form either state no matter when their do their Primaries, or have the Electors for that state vote for McClain (OR the Delegates may opt to vote for their own Candidate forcing the election to the House of Representatives, which elects by vote for president BY STATE).

People always like to point out that the electoral Collages avoids direct election of the PResident, but it also permits at least two ways to vote for a Compromise Candidate. The Constitutional Convention members knew their is something about a deadline that forces deal, especially if the deadline leaves someone else makes a deal. The electors vote by State in their State Capital. At the time of the Convention that was six months BEFORE the President was to sworn in. That gave 4-5 months for the Electors to decide among themselves, who to vote for. If they could NOT make a deal, then and only then would the House of Representatives get a chance to vote for the President and then only by state.

In 1877, when Five states where in contention, a "corrupt" bargain was made between the Parties to decide who were the electors in those five states (and once the electors were decided they all voted GOP and the GOP candidate "won"). Such "corrupt" bargain for planned for by the Constitutional Convention members as a possible way to decide on a President. One the votes where counted, and the results were indecisive, you have to have someway to still elect a President. The Electoral Collage was viewed as the first step in such a process, if it could be done at that level the convention members thought that as a good way to do so. It was only after the electors could NOT decide among themselves that the Congress was called to make a decision. The Senate was to pick he Vice President out of the top two vote getters, the House was to pick the President out of the top three vote getters. Thus even the election of the President by Congress was set by the Electors by who they voted for.

Given that the House has to vote by STATE on who will be President, and the GOP controls more state delegates then the Democrats do (even through more members of Congress are Democrats, they tend to come from the Larger states, we have at least three states, Montana, Wyoming and Alaska with only one member of the house, and all three that is a Republican). Will Obama be willing to wait for a vote by the House? Given that more state delegation are GOP then Democratic? I will avoid the issue of which Congress gets to vote, but there is a question as to whether it is the Congress that is sitting today or the one elected in November as to which one gets to vote.

Amendment 12 of the Constitution is the present method of electing the President and Vice President. Under the original Constitution the two top vote getters in the Electoral Collage were the President and Vice President, but this did NOT work out, so now the Electors vote for both offices as separate offices not as one office:

For the 12th Amendment:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxii.html

Now the 12th was affected by the 20th Amendment that changed the start of the Presidency from March 4th to January 20th. For text of the 20th Amendment:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxx.html

The 20th Amendment also changed the first day of Congress to Noon on January 3rd from the first Monday in December, AND set the last date of a Congressman's term as at Noon on January 3rd. Prior to that date it was unclear, under the Constitution, when one Congress replaced another (Congress itself set the date for its end and the beginning of he next Congress).

The Basic Argument is that when the 12th amendment was adopted the electors were to be reviewed by the Congress that was in Session after the First Monday in December NOT the Congress that came into office January 3rd. Prior to the 20th Amendment these were the SAME Congress, the one elected in the previous fall. Now the Congress elected in the Fall does NOT come into office till January 3, of the following year. The Electors, by statute, NOT the Constitution which is silent on the issue, vote by being of December and send in their Votes to Congress at that time. Thus when the Electors vote, the NEW CONGRESS CAN NOT be in Session. The argument goes that the decision of who will be President should be decided by the Congress in session in December NOT that one that comes into Office on January 3rd.

My personal view is this is a weak argument, what was meant by the writers of the 20th Amendment was to have a fix time for Congress to start its session, and given that by the time of the 20th Amendment, elections had been fixed on the First Tuesday in November since the 1880s The writers and the ratifiers of the 20th Amendment believed that any decision as to a tie for Presidency would be by the Congress that was elected at the same time as the President in the fall of the previous year. When the 12th amendment was passed states could and did elected their electors and Congressmen at different dates throughout the fall. The Congress thus elected came into session on the first Monday in December of that year. Given the short time between the First Tuesday in November and the First Monday in December, it was decided to push back the first date of Congress to the date Congress had been setting for decades (under the Constitution Congress had to meet on the First monday of December UNLESS it picked a different date, which by the 1880s it was doing on a regular basis). Thus the intentions of the Writers of the Amendment was to have the President elected by the Congress elected in the same election, NOT the previous election.

This came up in 2000, various commentaries (GOP mostly) talked about which Congress should make the Decision. The reason for the Discussion was how close the election was that the Democrats might control the majority of State Representatives to the Congress and vote in Gore, while the Congress in session in at the time of the Election had a Majority of Representatives, by states, to be GOP controlled. I believe it was just a write up to build up a claim for the old congress to elect Bush President if neither Bush or Gore won a Majority of Electors (Remember the Reform Party was alive and while at that time). GOP operators were setting up the above argument for a second way to steal the President, if the first way did not work.

I remember the weeks before the Elections, all the newspaper articles about why Gore should refuse the Presidency if Bush won more Votes, but Gore won more Electoral Votes. All the Articles wanted Gore to give up the Votes and acknowledge Bush greater number of Votes. All these articles were forgotten when the opposite happened, more people voted for Gore than Bush. I wished I had saved them, but the article not only forgotten the articles became had to find. This was to be the third line if all else failed, but Gore made sure people voted so this article was dead in the Water as far as the GOP was Concerned.

Remember the GOP like to set up a set of Arguments Weeks if NOT months before, thus the attacks against Obama today (and the Attacks against Hillary earlier in the year). I suspect most of them can be traced to the Republican National Committee, if they can be traced at all (The GOP likes hiding it trail). The GOP are good at making arguments that they believe will favor them, and forgetting them when they no longer do. Just a word of Warning in the present Obama-Clinton war, the real enemy is the GOP and try to keep the attack on the GOP and avoid attacking each other (and to accept how the GOP will attack both to further its agenda).
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riskpeace Donating Member (382 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
33. I live in Florida and I went to school in Michigan and
I think that Howard Dean needs to step down.
This time, I'm getting left out by the party I've supported.
And the FL Democratic legislators voted for the primary move because the Republican-controlled legislature attached it to a verified voting bill.
Telling your base to go screw off in two swing states is a very strange strategy, to say the least.

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liberal1973 Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. I live in one of the states too.
I fully support Howard Dean. Florida knew what the rules were and yet the corrupt republican govenor still went ahead anyway.

The people of Florida should be calling their governor to ask for the tax payer to pay for another primary if they really want another primary. The DNC or the campaigns will not pay for it because the state had been warned about breaking the rules.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. We Floridians are
none too happy that we've been screwed TWICE by not having our votes counted or counted properly. None too happy with Dean for punishing Florida Democratic voters for what the Florida REPUBLICANS did. To top it off, I do not support Hillary Clinton and do NOT want to see Florida go for her. Florida Democrats have been disenfranchised twice now. No true liberal could think THAT was OK.
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
35. Good. Another expensive primary would piss off independent voters more than not having delegates.
n/t
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. I don't think so.
Everyone is forgetting something.

Michigan didn't go for the Democratic Party candidate in 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988.

Michigan votes with its pocketbook and its time card. Say "Fuck you" to Michigan at your peril.
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. "Michigan votes with its pocketbook"...thanks for proving my point. n/t
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Pardon?
MY point was that when things are tough here, and someone shows up and says "We'll get you jobs," people BELIEVE them whether or not they are lying.

Put that on top of being cut out of the primary process, well, you do the math.

Question: do you know what happened in 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, and 1988?
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