2 Clinton Backers Offer a Way to Stage New Primaries; Daschle says he would go along

[DeepModem Mom]

Source: New York Times

By JOHN M. BRODER and DAVID W. CHEN
Published: March 10, 2008

Two of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s biggest supporters, who are also two of the Democratic Party’s most successful fund-raisers, have offered to help raise millions of dollars to stage new primaries in Florida and Michigan.

Gov. Jon S. Corzine of New Jersey and Gov. Edward G. Rendell of Pennsylvania said Sunday that they would be willing to raise half the $30 million it would take to run new contests in those two states. Mr. Corzine and Mr. Rendell submitted their proposal to The Washington Post. The two governors argue that the Democratic National Committee, and not taxpayers in Florida and Michigan, should pay for a re-election in those states.

Democrats have been struggling to find a way to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida, who were excluded when those states held primaries in January, violating national party rules. With a virtual tie in both convention delegates and the nationwide popular vote, the dispute over the two states has the potential of deciding the overall race.

Mrs. Clinton won in both states, though Senator Barack Obama’s name did not appear on the Michigan ballot and neither candidate campaigned actively in Florida. Her supporters at first pressed for the disputed delegates to be seated, but both campaigns and Democratic Party leaders have been searching for an alternative solution....

Mr. Rendell raised the fund-raising proposal on “Meet the Press” on NBC as he pressed for re-votes in the two states. Former Senator Tom Daschle of South Dakota, speaking for the Obama campaign, also appeared on the program and said he would go along. “We don’t have any problem with that,” Mr. Daschle said....

(NOTED ON EDIT: Senator Daschle is a long-time supporter of Senator Obama, and is involved in his campaign. His statement, however, according to the article, is not an official endorsement by the campaign.)

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/us/politics/10campaign.html?ref=todayspaper

[TheWraith]

1. Translation: Clinton backers offer to try and buy her some wins.

Talk about desperate. Why don't they just move straight to bribing the election officials?

[thereismore]

4. Who are they going to raise the $30M from? It's either going to cut into her

fundraising, or it will come from special interests. Either way, bad news for Hil.

[Generator]

111. Barbra Streisand, silly

One more time out of "retirement".

[lark]

6. Oh, so voting is only allowed

when and where you want and you can throw out any votes at any time for any stupid made-up reason? Glad to know that democracy (small d) is not part of Obama's platform. LOL, you guys are on top, why are you sounding so desperate, are you afraid that not all Democrats want your candidate?? If so, you'd be right.

lark:wtf:

[TheWraith]

26. Apparently, since that's the policy of the Clinton campaign.

Caucuses don't count, small states don't count (Unless they're New Hampshire), states like Illinois and Virginia don't count, red states don't count (unless they're Texas), etcetera, etcetera...

And of course, Florida and Michigan count, even though they really don't.

[Tyler Durden]

51. Wait until NOVEMBER, You'll see how much Michigan and Florida count.

What does it profit the party to Gain Ohio then lose Michigan and Florida?

[Tanketra]

68. Well, since you asked ...

Put bluntly and pragmatically ... 3 electoral votes.

We can't "lose" FL, because we haven't had them for two elections anyway, and the party probably has a better chance of picking up MO and IA to get past 270 than it does of picking up FL. At that point, MI and OH would basically be interchangeable.

Sure, I'd rather we won all 3 states in November. And for the record, I don't think the results of a new primary/caucus in FL would turn out results significantly different from the previous one, and I'm still hoping the party finds a way to include both states in the process *without* jettisoning their principles.

But the "threat" of what FL might do to us in November if they don't get their way now? In light of recent history, it's a little silly.

[Tyler Durden]

77. Can you lose Michigan?

Maybe. McGovern did. So did Carter, Mondale, Dukakis...

In fact, with the exception of Jimmy Carter in 1976 (and of course the Bush Boys), The Democrats have not done well here. Recession tends to make people vote for Republicans in Michigan, so you folks have some work to do in improving the Party Image here.

How's THAT for some history?

[Tyler Durden]

82. Correction: Michigan didn't vote for a Democrat from 1972 to 1992.

McGovern, Carter (twice), Mondale, Dukakis...

ALL of them lost here. I may support HRC, but neither SHE nor Obama can hold a candle to ANY of them in my opinion.

[Tyler Durden]

85. How about 17 electoral votes?

That's how many there are in Michigan, and the only Democratic Party Presidential Candidates we've voted for since Humphrey have been Clinton and Gore.

That's not exactly something the party should take lightly.

[SoCalDem]

73. Florida is not ours..hasn't been for ages & Crist will be the vp choice

Ohio wil be McCain's..as might be Pennsylvania..

BEFORE HRC went all MPD & nasty , only 36 % said they would vote for her.. and this was when she was the presumed candidate and Obama was polling 15%..
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1327.xml?ReleaseID=1117

[lark]

99. Way to compare apples and oranges

Your argument is about relative merits, mine is about absolutely disenfranchising voters of two states that are critical to any Dem win. She says caucuses don't count "as much" in a philosophical way, Obama says don't count their votes at all. Which is Democratic and which is Rovian?

Keep it up Obamites, show your real anti-democratic leanings. I know dedicated Dems that I work with who were very pro-Obama and now have totally switched to Clinton because of the vote bs he's spewing. We may not like everything about Clinton, but I absolutely hate anything that stops votes being counted. After the way Gore was shafted in Miami, how could you even consider not letting FL votes count for something, and still call yourself a Dem.

Don't give me that "contest rules" bs either. Wisconsin has broken the rules for the last 20+ years by letting Republicans and Independents vote in the Democratic primary, and guess what, their folks get seated every year. Why is it OK for Wisconsin to break the rules but not FL or MI? Is it because we didn't just toe the line and vote the way the big mastas wanted us too? What termerity, off with their votes!!

[sybylla]

60. Wow, you win the gold for jumping to conclusions

First, it's not the Obama campaign's decision. That's a giant strawman that has no place in this debate.

Second, the DNC definitely has the right to accept delegates based on a plan submitted to them for their approval. The courts have ruled over and over again that the political parties can control by their means of choice the manner in which candidates are placed on THEIR ballot. This isn't a voter disenfranchisement issue. It's a private party issue - an issue that in the long run is about the party establishing rules that prevent political machines from taking over the candidate selection process.

Third, this has not been a problem historically because all 50 states have every four years submitted plans that meet the DNC criteria for candidate selection and had them approved. This year, 48 states had their plans approved. The Democratic leadership of two states knew last summer that their plans were not approved and instead of trying to work out a new plan in a timely manner, they decided to lay their dicks on the table and see whose was bigger. We all know who lost. Now, they want a last minute mulligan. Why, exactly, should the rest of us care?

If you want someone to scapegoat, why don't you try your state party leadership. They are the ones responsible for the fact that the primary vote taken in January doesn't count.

[Tyler Durden]

78. Keep it up.

This is not the time to play "Who Shot John?"

We have damage control to play, and if you really support Obama, now's the time for you and the rest of his partisans to urge his campaign to get on the bandwagon.

After 2 years of "DNC SUCKS!", the insistence on DNC Rules is a little ingenuous, and not very smart.

[lark]

101. Thank you for the medal - LOL

Your point would be well taken if it wasn't inaccurate. Wisconsin has broken the rules every primary for a long time and they are still seated each and every time. This is selective enforcement. By the way, I am angry at the FL Dem party too for setting up this awful situation.

As for the Obama strawman, he absolutely is supporting the hypocrisy of allowing Wisconsin to vote as they will but suppressing the votes from FL and MI. Can you see a slightly self serving pattern here?

[Zhade]

98. SUCH bullshit. It was known the votes would not count ahead of time.

Trying to change the rules now is CHEATING. Why do you support tactics like b*s* used in 2000?

[Tyler Durden]

7. Translation: Obama doesn't give a shit what Michigan or Florida VOTERS say.

No matter how anybody really feels about this, it's high time BOTH candidates got off their ass and DID SOMETHING about this.

We Voters in these states really don't give a fuck WHAT the party thinks about their fucking RULES. Nelson is a pig, but he's right about this: disenfranchise two large states, and you may be creating the New Ohio out of one of them.

[stillcool]

19. The candidates have nothing to do...

with this. Where do you get this crap from?

Wednesday, March 21, 2007
Story last updated at 6:00 p.m. on Wednesday, March 21, 2007

Florida House votes for earlier presidential primary
http://www.jacksonville.com/apnews/stories/032107/D8O0PVN02.shtml
By STEPHEN MAJORS
Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Florida voters would choose their presidential nominees as early as January under a plan the state House of Representatives resoundingly passed Wednesday.

The Sunshine State's primary would move to Feb. 5 or seven days after the New Hampshire primary, whichever comes first. The plan could push Florida past a handful of other states that have already scheduled a Feb. 5 primary; more than a dozen other stares are also considering a Feb. 5 vote.

But the Florida Senate, which has not yet chosen a new primary date or moved a bill out of committee, stands in the way of giving the state more relevance than its current March primary brings.

House Republicans and Democrats passed the earlier primary bill (HB 537) by a 115-1 vote - a challenge to the national parties that are wielding threats in an attempt to prevent a nationwide race for earlier and earlier primaries.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Florida lawmakers believe the state's demographic and political diversity merit a greater say in the selection of nominees. They're tired of candidates treating the fourth-largest state as a fundraising ATM, only to take the money to campaign in small states like Iowa and New Hampshire. And they say they are willing to call the bluffs of the national parties, which have threatened to take away delegates the state parties send to the nominating conventions.

National Democratic Party rules could even punish candidates who campaign in states that move their primaries earlier than Feb. 5 by essentially not recognizing the state's delegates.

"The state can move its primary date but there are automatic sanctions," said Luis Miranda, a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee. "The rules have been adopted and we will enforce the rules."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
But some, like state Rep. Jack Seiler, a Wilton Manors Democrat who was the only House member to vote against the bill, believe Florida's earlier primary will hurt underdog candidates who don't have enough money to compete in large media markets at an early stage. He's been impressed with former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, but hasn't yet endorsed anyone.

"You're essentially going to make this into a straight money race," Seiler said, benefiting "whomever comes out of 2007 with the most money to prepare for these large states."

The Florida Senate is waiting to see what happens in other states before moving forward with a date, said Sen. Jeremy Ring, D-Margate, who is leading the effort in that chamber.

"It gives us a chance to really watch the landscape," Ring said. "When we're done Florida will be relevant."

Nelson set to sue DNC over Florida’s primary
By Aaron Blake
Posted: 09/26/07 08:23 PM
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) upped the ante in the battle over the Democratic presidential primary calendar on Tuesday, saying he is moving forward with legal action against his party to fight for the state’s right to hold a binding Jan. 29 primary.
-----------------------------------------------------
In a letter Nelson received late Monday, Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Howard Dean rebuffed his plea for leniency and reaffirmed that Florida Democrats have until Saturday to either change their primary plans or lose all their delegates to the national convention.

Dean said none of Nelson’s proposed compromises were acceptable because they contravene DNC rules, which allow contests prior to Feb. 5 in only four states: Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

“We’re disappointed in Gov. Dean’s response,” Nelson said.

DNC spokeswoman Stacie Paxton said the committee worked closely with the state party to come to an agreement that complied with DNC rules.

“We’re disappointed that they chose not to pursue these options, but we’re moving forward,” Paxton said. “Unfortunately, Sen. Nelson did not offer any compromises that worked within the rules."

The state party made clear over the weekend that it would not bow to the national party’s threatened sanctions, declaring its primary binding and rolling out a campaign to encourage voters to head to the polls on Jan. 29.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Florida is one of two states engaging in battles with the DNC for moving its primary ahead of the Feb. 5 cutoff. Michigan has moved its primary to Jan. 15 and faces similar sanctions.

The DNC emphasizes that its rules were adopted by hundreds of DNC representatives from all 50 states. It also cites Democratic Party of the United States v. Wisconsin ex rel. La Follette, which says national parties do not need to recognize the results of a primary in allocating delegates, and that a state can refuse to seat delegates from a primary that violates its rules.


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/nelson-set-to-sue-dnc-over-floridas-primary-2007-09-26.html

[Tyler Durden]

27. And this effects the out-of-work UAW Member HOW?

The average voter could give less than a FUCK about that.

You wasted your time posting it.

They will only remember that somebody cared and somebody DIDN'T.

Why in HELL are you quoting DNC Rules anyway? I thought all you Obama Supporters HATED the DNC.

Except when you think you're getting a "Bennie" off of them, I guess.

[susankh4]

39. That is correct

The average voter only knows this: the Dems aren't dems.

And the GOP will keep feeding it to them, over and over...

And, to be quite frank, we look like fools with our heads up our asses.

[Tyler Durden]

44. Time to fish or cut bait.

We either take care of TWO key states: one which HAS been blue, and one that COULD be blue.

This is a chance for the Party to say HEY we FUCKED UP, (whether or not they did) and LOOK LIKE HEROES.

[lark]

104. I really think FL could go blue

Bush fatigue is very prevalent here. A friend's husband is Repug and has never voted Dem, but will not vote for McCain because he thinks invading Iran is insane. He's voting Dem for the first time, unless we manage to turn him off by disenfranchising him. Jeb's gone, so hopefully the vote fixing (except for that by the Dem party?) has gone with him.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Qutzupalotl]

70. You might be thinking of DLC. nt

[phrigndumass]

32. Kudos to stillcool47

I've been looking for info like this for a couple days now.

BIG :thumbsup:

- Phrig

[phrigndumass]

36. If new elections are held ...

It's obvious why one candidate is fighting for one end of the spectrum, and the other is fighting for the opposing end:

Scenario 1 – Status Quo (without FL or MI)
CLINTON NEEDS 63.0%, OBAMA NEEDS 37.0%, in all remaining contests

Scenario 2 – New elections in Florida and Michigan
CLINTON NEEDS 58.6%, OBAMA NEEDS 41.4%, in all remaining contests

Scenario 3 – Michigan seated as is, Florida seated as is
CLINTON NEEDS 53.8%, OBAMA NEEDS 46.2%, in all remaining contests

If new elections are held, they both lose ground.

More info:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5004555

[Tyler Durden]

46. And this matters why?

From a purely pragmatic stance, if the Republicans can say, "LOOK Michigan and Florida! The Democrats love you SO MUCH that they FUCKED YOU out of voting in their primary!" is it worth it to stand on principle?

Obama will still likely win, but the big problem here is NEGATIVE PUBLICITY. If he takes a hands off approach, the person that benefits is most is McCain.

[phrigndumass]

52. I'm willing to try to understand your point of view

In your opinion, what's the solution to keep out the negative publicity? Hold a new election in both states, or seat the delegates as they are?

What I'm saying is that Obama could relent from his current position, allow new contests in Michigan and Florida, and still win. Why he isn't doing so is a mystery to me.

On the other hand, Senator Clinton could also relent from her position, allow new contests without seating them as is, and still have a mathematical possiblity to win, albeit very slim.

In order to change the rules, you gotta first know what the rules are. And I appreciated the post from stillcool for that reason.

[Tyler Durden]

53. Here's how to do it:

Redo the Primary. Do it from both sides. Don't charge either state. That way everyone looks like a good guy, but Obama's time to do this is running out FAST.

Yeah and I got sworn at by stillcool because they don't see that an unemployed factory worker with a family to feed and a house in Flint going into seizure doesn't give two shits about "The Rules" and trying to explain it to them that way will only piss them off.

I've been in manufacturing since 1971 except for some Navy and Lab time. I work with these people and THEY are PISSED OFF. After the Primary debacle, all McCain has to do is come in and talk about how the Democrats didn't even let them vote in the primary; he won't have to say anything else.

Time to cut our losses. RIGHT NOW.

[phrigndumass]

61. Makes sense

The sooner the better, yes.

Both candidates would need to move away from their current stances, though. Obama supports the "status quo" without Florida and Michigan, and Clinton supports seating Michigan and Florida based on the January results.

The reasons they aren't budging from their current stances right now is that both of them would lose five percentage points off their chances to win, depending on how they look at it.

It's taking so long because they're both being stubborn with their positions. How about some compromise? Both are wary of giving the other an inch, for fear they'll take a mile.

My brother was in the Navy in the 70's, and he was laid off recently as well, from working as a pipefitter for Shell Oil. It's hard to imagine oil companies having record profits and still laying folks off. He used to say, "Sometimes all it takes to get screwed is to wake up in the morning."

[DemVet]

95. Well said. I wholeheartedly agree. n/t

[Zhade]

100. You may not care, but the courts have affirmed that this is not disenfranchisement.

Rules are important. Your desire to cheat is very Rovian.

[lark]

103. Love ya,

From one Floridian to another, I'm sick as hell of being disenfranchised, and agree 100% with everything you said.

[pokercat999]

96. This could really backfire on her. Odds say she is better

off with this fake "issue" to whine about than actually losing another election. They (FL and MI) could have followed the rules, they didn't they lose, simple enough. Clinton agreed to the rules now she wants to disavow them because without FL and MI she is buried. This says it all, win at any cost clinton. She has lost my vote regardless of what the party does.

At the beginning of the primary I was a Kicinich supporter then Edwards. When Edwards dropped out I was willing to vote for any democrat. Clinton's performance since then has convinced me I cannot and will not vote for her.

[Megahurtz]

102. I wouldn't be surprised if they did that too. n/t

[Tarc]

2. As long as it is a legit primary and not an inherently undemocratic caucus, this sounds good

Clinton has one easy ad campaign to run in both states to beat Obama like a drum; "I have fought for your vote to be counted, while my opponent fought to disenfranchise you."

Simple and effective.

[TheWraith]

3. And as long as we only count the votes of Clinton supporters, she wins easily.

Because hey, actually listening to the voters is for chumps.

[lark]

8. Hillary is not for blocking votes

That's Obama's position and one his supporters are, disgustingly enough, fighting for.

:thumbsdown:

[TheWraith]

14. Hey, I'm all for full participation, but not for vote buying.

And I think you'd be screaming bloody murder if Obama supporters tried to pay to hold a special election for him. Having one candidate's supporters actually paying for the election? That's absolutely insane and completely contrary to popular democracy. The FL and MI parties can either pay for it themselves, or they can accept the $1M each offered by the DNC. That's the rules.

[lark]

105. Rules, schmules

I never supported Rendel etc. buying elections in FL or MI. I support counting votes, period the end. It's a democratic (small d)values thing with me and it goes way beyond who the candidates are. FL doesn't have much money and neither does the national group. Really this whole thing is just beyond stupid. I think the best would be to honor the votes in FL since we had a full slate of candidates and I want my vote for Edwards to count. I'm not in love with Hillary, just feel she's the best of what's left. Next best option is vote by mail. It's not nearly as expensive. It does mightily piss me off to have to revote, but at least with mail I wouldn't have to take time off work again, which isn't easy.

I believe Obama's position is that we shouldn't be allowed to vote, we had the termerity to not vote for him so we obviously can't be counted! Keep it up, he's driving Dems to Hillary, including me.

[stillcool]

25. Clinton Cheap Tricks 101

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to
disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proud Democrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

[asthmaticeog]

38. Yeah, just ask Nevada. nt

[Tyler Durden]

9. Keep it up.

Michigan voters are not happy about this at the moment. All the Obama Campaign has to do is keep on with a "Rules are Rules" position, and you might just see a Clinton Landslide in Michigan and Florida.

WE didn't have anything to do with this debacle: the PARTY in and out of state is responsible.

[Kelli372]

24. The DNC set these rules quite a while ago...

But the state leaders of both Michigan and Florida are the ones that decided to go against them to increase their own political muscle. The states' elected leaders and representatives are the ones that knowingly disenfranchised their own people, not the DNC!

No matter who you support in this...the DNC MUST NOT set a precedent that it's ok to go against the rules...especially ones that were agreed to! This only opens up the possibility of even worse debacles in the future!

[Tyler Durden]

29. Hey, at this point, the only one with something to lose is Obama.

You want to give Clinton "bragging rights" in Michigan and Florida? Be my guest.

On the other hand, you want to make it HARDER for Obama to hold Michigan or take Florida...I'd say that's not very smart.

He ought to jump on this bandwagon FAST for pure damage control.

[lark]

107. Wish they were that consistent

They allow Wisconsin to break the rules every primary season and seat their delegates as is. Why can Wisconsin break the rules, but not MI and FL?

[9119495]

34. Given what you say about the leaders in Michigan

Would you support removing all of the state party leaders? (not elected officials, but the state central committee)

Also, would you support a deal that Michigan and Florida go last next time? It might work out as a great thing or a terrible thing but I think it would at least make other states feel better about sticking to the rules.

[Tyler Durden]

40. You are missing the point, aren't you?

This is no longer about "The Rules." NOBODY will remember anything about "The Rules." They will only remember who bailed them out of not getting a voice in the primary.

Personally, I think that this whole agreement to let Iowa and New Hampshire go first for all these years was the highest form of idiocy I'd ever hear of, and frankly, I APPLAUD the State Party for standing up against it.

And also, I don't give a FUCK HOW my voice gets heard, as long as it does. And neither should YOU. But if you want to look like a stickler for "The Rules," be my guest. It will only look BETTER for the Candidate who does the most FASTEST to see that the redo happens.

This is a no-win situation for Obama if he doesn't act FAST. It will look like "ME TOO! ME TOO!" if his campaign WAITS, and he will look like he's saying "Fuck you, Michigan and Florida" if they try to play "The Rules."

Hey, it's your call.

[lark]

106. Yeah man

[dmac]

37. Uh, I think not

Only as seen through the eyes of a Hillary supporter. Some are even beginning to think with the spin. The truth is Hillary all too willingly signed the same pledge that every single candidate signed - plain and simple. If the rights of these voters was what concerned Hillary, she would never have agreed to the ruling. It was only when she began to realize she wasn't "inevitable" after all that the chant for voters' rights in these states began to sound. It has nothing to do with the rights of those voters and everything to do with the fact that Hillary needs those votes. Many will see this and vote accordingly.

[Tyler Durden]

47. Keep it up.

The longer Obama waits to get involved in this, the more he looks like a schmuck.

If that was possible after McClurkin and Caldwell.

[wildwww2]

69. She can try that crap if she wants. But if they redo FL I`m voting Obama!

And I voted for Edwards on January 29th. I may be wrong, but I think the only way Hillary gets enough delegates to win is if she somehow cons the superdelegates. Which would be a Fraud W. Bu$h type of thing. And I would hope as a Democratic person she would not stoop so low. Florida will be stolen by the repukes anyway just like the last two presidential selections. Charlie Crist has super perfected the election theft mechanism that Jeb Bu$h perfected.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[DJ13]

5. I find it just plain WRONG that backers of a candidate ON THE BALLOT...

.....are funding an election.

Sounds like something from a South American Third World country, NOT the US.

[Tyler Durden]

10. Then come up with some OBAMA backers.

I have heard that there are heavy hitters on his side. Time to pony up.

[TheWraith]

15. What heavy hitters, pray tell? Obama's money comes mostly from small donors.

He doesn't have any Rupert Murdochs behind him like Hillary does.

[susankh4]

41. Oh yeah.... sure....

he doesn't.

No bundlers either.

:rofl:

[Liberalynn]

58. No he just has

Oprah the billionairess! I was sitting in an X-Ray Lab today hearing two women say they don't think any celebrity including Oprah should be able to "buy the presidency" for their candidate. Their words not mine.

Its a matter of perception regardless of the facts, but perception counts. No one should kid themselves that it doesn't.

Let's face it as much as they both will protest and pretend otherwise, no politician, including Hillary or Obamma is ever completely free of billionaire bucks and influence.

[Liberalynn]

59. Accidentatl dupe

[DJ13]

16. Then come up with some OBAMA backers.

It WRONG no matter WHICH CANDIDATE pays for it.

Dont you get that?

The STATES should have to pay for their OWN actions.

They decided to give the finger to the Party, they were WARNED of the consequences ahead of time.

If they want their citizens to count, THEY should pay for their citizens to count.

[Tyler Durden]

20. Keep it up.

I'm a citizen, and I got no say in this action, so I should be penalized?

I don't think so.

And as the state with the current highest unemployment (Michigan) I would say that you and your "Don't you get that?" attitude, well, let's just say my suggestion involves excretory orifices and forceful insertions.

Keep it up Obama Supporters. If and When the Primary redo happens, we'll remember who supported us.

[DJ13]

28. I'm a citizen, and I got no say in this action

But you do.

It was YOUR elected officials and your OWN Party leaders that screwed you over.

YOU have the ability to organize to make them pay the next time they ask for your vote.

Thats the facts, sorry if you dont like it.

[Tyler Durden]

30. Fine.

When McCain comes to Flint and says to Joe Sixpack "The Democrats didn't even CARE to Count your Primary vote." are you going to quote him RULES?

This was a joint State/National DNC FUCKUP. I suggest the best policy right now is FIX THE GOD DAMNED THING before it gets infinitely worse.

Quit making excuses.

[DJ13]

33. This was a joint State/National DNC FUCKUP

State, not DNC.

But that doesnt change the fact its unseemly for supporters of a candidate on the revote ballot to be funding the revote.

Sounds like Hugo Chavez is running for office.

[Tyler Durden]

35. You want to stand on this principle? GOOD.

Personally, I'm a Clinton supporter, and I think the MASSIVE publicity of helping to fund a redo here would generate positive publicity for her campaign you couldn't buy for 10 times the money it will cost.

If Obama and his supporters are that stupid as to oppose this and play hands off for some idiotic "Rules Violation" that not 1 of 20 voters "gets" anyway, then I would say he's being advised by IDIOTS, and the claims of his campaign that he would get experienced foreign policy people working for him is not very credible.

Does anyone but ME remember BUSH saying he would hire smart people to work for him?

[PassingFair]

43. "Personally, I'm a Clinton supporter"

...like we couldn't tell by your vehement support
for whatever works for Ms. Clinton.

:eyes:

Most Michiganders I know feel that Clinton gamed the system
when she left her name of the ballot and the other serious
candidates REALLY did not participate.

You are seeing things through your candidates eyes.
The people I know see things differently.

[Tyler Durden]

48. Who do YOU know?

I live in Owosso, Michigan. Mid way between the disaster that is FLINT, and the disaster waiting to happen in LANSING, and 40 miles north of the catastrophe that is PONTIAC.

Most of the people I KNOW would vote for LUCIFER if they thought he was listening to their problems. I don't know ONE SINGLE PERSON that feels the way you describe. Your fellow OBAMA supporters are not a good base to take your opinion poll from.

Get "BLUE COLLAR," and see what the rank and file feels. It's too late to do this the right way, and if it doesn't get done, you handed John McCain $100 MILLION worth of negative publicity to throw at us.

This is a fucking TERRIBLE situation, and it can only get worse.

[PassingFair]

54. If they kept Jennifer Granholm.....

they will vote Obama. Michigan will vote for a democrat to
get us out of this HOLE.

All of Michigan is a disaster.

Our state legislators SCREWED UP bigtime
with this childish "me first" bullshit.

The Democratic nominee will eventually campaign here,

and win.

[Tyler Durden]

84. Like they did in 1972? 1976? 1980? 1984? 1988?

From Humphrey to Clinton we didn't vote for one Democratic Party Candidate.

Hello?

[Pathwalker]

65. Tyler, they don't CARE about Michigan or it's problems.

Seriously, in GDP, they have said repeatedly: "F*** Michigan". "Rules Count - Votes Don't. Get Over It".
"Michigan MUST get rid of every elected Democrat in the state for this!" "We don't need you, anyway", "Hillary Clinton must be purged from the Democratic Party" and on and on. They don't give a tinker's damn about Michigan - they couldn't care if we sank into the Great Lakes, as long as they get "our" water - you can't even convince them that the Great Lakes belong to ALL the Great Lakes States and Canada.
I live very close to you in mid-Michigan, a little township just North of Lansing. I know a lot of union workers in the area, and you are 100% correct in describing their feelings on this subject. They are pissed, desperate, and scared. They're losing everything they worked for in their entire lives, yet they're supposed to be impressed by having "The Rules" quoted to them as somehow important. Maybe "they" think union workers don't vote :shrug: Yep, they'll vote - for the candidate who wanted their votes to count. But you won't convince anyone here of that. Until after the election.
But they don't CARE about a State that's dying, and just wanted the country to pay attention to it's plight. "Rules Count. Votes Don't".

[Tyler Durden]

79. As I say, wait until November.

It's very odd, but in Michigan people tend to vote Republican when in Recession. Irrational, I know, but this chance to counteract this with some positive publicity is a golden opportunity, and the "RULES! RULES! RULES!" people could blow it for all of us.

I may not like Obama, but I sure as HELL hate the idea of "President McCain."

[Zhade]

109. Of course you're a Clinton supporter; you're endorsing cheating.

Par for the course.

[lakercub]

88. agree and disagree

"This was a joint State/National DNC FUCKUP." Completely wrong in terms of the rule-breaking. This was all a fuck-up of your state party. The rules were agreed to and they broke them. How you could find that to be the DNC's fault defies any standard of logic.

"I suggest the best policy right now is FIX THE GOD DAMNED THING before it gets infinitely worse." Absolutely right. This is the one place I will fault the DNC (and Michigan/Fla). We saw this coming a while ago and there is still no contingency plan. That's a disaster. We can't just throw out two states. Especially one state we are desperately trying to hold onto and another we are desperately trying to take back. There should have been some sort of work-around in place by mid-February.

"When McCain comes to Flint and says to Joe Sixpack "The Democrats didn't even CARE to Count your Primary vote." are you going to quote him RULES?" Dead on. McCain will be able to use this for all its worth. The states and DNC are going to have to stop drawing lines in the sand and figure out a compromise...fast. And both candidates, if they have any brains, will have their fingerprints all over the money and the solution. But Florida and Michigan must have a vote. Unfortunately the original Michigan vote is entirely unusable, as Hillary was the only one on the ballot.

Question...why would Michigan even think of going republican right now? As a resident I would like your take on that. We have had 8 years of republican incompetence that have absolutely killed manufacturing jobs in this country, and in Michigan, and republican policies are directly responsible. Do the working class Michigan folks not see that? Because it seems blindingly obvious. I would think a manufacturing-heavy state would vote heavily dem this time around just on self-preservation. But it looks like, historically, Michigan doesn't...I don't get it.

[Zhade]

108. You had the chance to lobby against this. Did you?

Did you lead any sort of dissent against the idea BEFORE it happened?

[Tyler Durden]

22. Oh and by the way.....

Hollywood is FULL of Obama Backers. Like George Clooney, for starters.

[pbca]

11. Are they going to raise time as well?

Florida is now claiming there isn't enuogh time left.

[movonne]

12. This is sicking .... this country is falling into despair and we have

people willing to put millions into a redo of a primary that probably means nothing...I'm I the only one that thinks this is immoral...this is the only a way of trying again to steal this election...it is time to put this whole issue to bed...they broke the rules and knew it and went right ahead...so spending more money on this insane primary is crazy..

[Tyler Durden]

31. Keep it up.

When McCain comes to Flint and Pontiac, quoting the rules to out of work GM and Chrysler workers should work.

You just don't see what a disaster this could be, do you?

[fshrink]

13. What worries me is the increase

from the 6 mils in Florida, as of yesterday, to the 30 mils for both states today. Have mail-ins, as suggested by Dean yesterday, been abandoned? Is this a way of making the vote less popular? Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes... And we're talking 15 mils present here.

[DeepModem Mom]

18. From Dean, re. the article --

In his appearance on CBS, Mr. Dean urged the parties to find a solution quickly, saying that with the lead Democrats hold in polls and in fund-raising, “the only thing that can beat us is if we’re divided.”

In a separate interview, on ABC, Mr. Dean suggested that a compromise might involve using mail-in ballots to restage both primaries, with the cost — perhaps one-third that of conventional elections — to be absorbed by Democratic donors.

[fshrink]

21. 6 to 15 in 24 hours?

[DeepModem Mom]

23. It's a mess, and a puzzlement -- I agree. nt

[Tyler Durden]

17. You know what Obama SHOULD do?

Say THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

It's being funded by another candidate, and his supporter Daschle LIKES it, so Obama doesn't have to pony up.

But he should.

[susankh4]

42. Yes he should!

But... we see now, who the *real* democrat is.

Just as I expected.....

[Tyler Durden]

49. If I hear one more word about "The Rules..."

...I'm going "Linda Blair" all over the wall.

JESUS TAP-DANCING-CHRIST-ON-A-CRUTCH. Can ANY of these Obama Supporters see what a CATASTROPHE is brewing here, or don't they care that Obama could be the new "McGovern" and needs all the help he can get?

He'd probably win here in Michigan ANYWAY, unless his idiot campaign continues to stand on "The Rules" and let Clinton pull this off alone.

[Liberalynn]

56. We cannot afford to have Florida and Michigan

voters angry at the Democratic party. We have to find a way to fairly resolve this issue and the DNC just isn't handling this well.

Punish the party leaders in those states for violating the rules but don't disenfranchise the voters.

They need to have a new primary in both states and those votes need to be counted in the delegate count.

Otherwise we are just handing two major states over to Johnny and the Thugs.

Obamma, his supporters,and the DNC need to recognize this. You may win a battle but you will loose the war, if you alienate the voters of Michigan and Florida.

I'm not saying count them as they stand currently but that a new primary needs to be held in which both Obamma and Clinton can both have a fair chance at winning the delegates.

I just don't think it is a good idea to disenfranchise voters we need in the General Election.

[susankh4]

57. No. They don't see it.

We are being made to look like fools to everyone except them. And the GOP is milking it for all it's worth. "The undemocratic Democrats."

Honestly, I give up. There is no reasoning left to do.

[sybylla]

62. HRC wants to break the rules and seat the delegates

as they were chosen - outside the blessing of the DNC - and this somehow becomes a problem created by Obama? Everyone who supports the "rule of law" so to speak is suddenly an Obama supporter who can't see reason?

Please, go all Linda Blair on this.

Apparently you can't see that the real catastrophe is allowing any state to thumb its nose at rules established by the DNC for selecting Democratic candidates in a fair, equitable and timely manner that prevents political machines from swaying the results. These aren't straight and narrow rules. They allow for a broad range of possibilities from closed caucuses to open primaries to a combination thereof. How difficult can it be to come up with a plan that works, that recognizes traditions in each state and that gets approval? Forty-eight states actually managed to do it (in previous election years all 50 managed the burden). Even after Florida and Michigan Democratic Parties received repeated early warnings that their delegates would not be seated if they continued, they refused to do nothing.

If protecting our candidate selection process means drawing a line in the sand that presses Democrats in these to states to clean up their party leadership and get their act together, I'll gladly risk losing their support in the general election. Clearly if Democratic voters are willing to take out their anger on candidates who are as much a victim of the poor Dem Party leadership in their state, I have to wonder what kind of Dems they really are.

I'm all for a re-vote. If everyone can agree on who's paying for it, great. Either way, it's time to bring an end to the divisive propaganda coming from the Michigan and Florida Dem parties and get on with winning in November.

[Liberalynn]

64. I don't see it as a problem caused by Obamma. I think it is a combination

of the Florida and Michigan party leaders and Dean. I do think however, Obamma needs to be more vocal in standing up for the rights of the voters in these states than he previously has been. Heck if the DNC refuses then both Hillary and Obamma should be doing every thing in their power to see that these voters aren't desenfranchised.

If Obamma is the nominee he is going to need their votes in the General Election just as much as Hillary would if she were the nominee.

I just don't want to see our party loose the GE because of how badly this has been mishandled. I don't want the voters in these two states saying well you didn't need us in the convention so why do you need us now?

That's my fear.

[Tyler Durden]

75. Keep it up.

Yep. That's just what we need. Two new BATTLEGROUND STATES.

Nobody seems to see that the PEOPLE are who count here, NOT the State Party, NOT the DNC.

But the People of Michigan and Florida do, and the longer partisans who did everything but call the DNC the spawn of Satan and NOW want to play "The Rules" keep dragging their feet, the worse YOU look.

Yep. Just keep it up. I remember a friend who worked for a newspaper saying about something similar, "You can't BUY publicity like this at any price."

Enjoy the fireworks.

[Zhade]

110. Hear, hear. Some truth to counterbalance the bullshit from Clinton boosters.

NT!

[pegleg]

55. the usual flip-flop

[ajamo]

63. Michigan re vote

I'm from Michigan and voted uncommitted because my choice was not on the ticket.
Now I say bring 'em on and I betting on Obama. Michiganders are not that keen on the Democrat party in our state. Remembering that the Governor is backing Hillary.
Our county democratic party did not put in the newspapers the issue of uncommitted vote to the voters, for they supported Hillary.
Makes sense on their part. No democracy in this county.

[superconnected]

66. candidates who look like they'll do anything to get elected - lie, cheat, steal

Also look like they'll do that after they get elected.

I certianly hope this woman does not get elected.

[Tyler Durden]

76. Keep it up.

May I recommend "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie?

Sounds like you could use a little light reading.

[klyon]

67. An interesting thing to me is that a re-vote will carry more wait now

than it did the first time around. This year voting last may have the bigger voice.

[Tyler Durden]

80. Kind of a chance everyone will have to take.

Nobody figured on any of this, but since Iowa and New Hampshire got their way anyhow, the censure of Michigan and Florida was the closest thing to insanity I've seen since the McClurkin debacle.

[AX10]

71. kick

[speedbird]

72. who would get ballots?

all registered voters?

[depakid]

74. " Daschle says he would go along"

Big surprise!

[NoodleyAppendage]

90. EXACTLY. Daschle's picture is in Websters under the word, "Bootlicking pantywaist." n/t

J

[annabanana]

81. This seems reasonable to me...

As an Obama supporter, I believe he would win.

[Tyler Durden]

83. Who cares who wins? At this point, we just need to salvage Michigan.

Michigan didn't vote for a Democratic Party Candidate for President in 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, and 1988.

How much of a shove do you think is needed for the Democratic Party to lose Michigan in November?

Do you REALLY think either Obama OR Clinton are the equal of McGovern? Carter? Mondale? Dukakis?

We could lose Michigan: does anything else matter at this point?

[Butch350]

86. Barack should have been the first...

I am a Barack supporter - and I am a Boomer not a youngster. Yes, there are 50 something people out here supporting
Barack Obama. I must admit that Mr Obama should have been the first out of the gate screaming to get satisfaction
for all the disenfranchised voters in Michigan and Florida - it might have won over some undecided voters in those
states. Now I think the Clinton campaign is gonna turn this thing around on Obama in some way.

I think the Democratic party is in "DIRE STRAITS" and come January 09 there will a Republican taking the "CIC" role.

In closing, I for one WILL NOT vote for HRC ! Ever! Good Bye Democratic Party.

[Tyler Durden]

87. VERY good. Exactly my point.

He lost "first whack," now he can either bandwagon or look anti-......

[NoodleyAppendage]

89. Translation: Corporate Money Interests Attempt to Hold Onto Their Stranglehold on the Dem Party.

Private funding of our elections is EXACTLY what we, as Democrats, have RAILED AGAINST Repukes for for YEARS!! WTF?

If this stunt doesn't prove that Hillary is the corporate candidate, I don't know what it will take to convince some around here that she DOES NOT have the best interests of the American CITIZENS at heart.

Get a fucking clue, people.

J

[MagsDem]

91. Why does what Daschle thinks matter?

[northzax]

92. Obama is widely considered to be Daschle's protoge

and heir. his staff is Daschle's staff, for instance. they are ideologically and tactically very similar.

oh, you thought different?

[MagsDem]

93. Well that explains a lot

He wants to emulate Joe Lieberman "his mentor" and now Daschle? Daschle was the biggest wussy the dem party has ever had as majority leader. Worst one in history as far as I'm concerned. So yes, it makes perfect sense that Obama, with his reach out to rethugs campaign, has the same staff. Good grief.

[northzax]

94. yes, but people are convinced

that he is a fighter, and will fight hard in the Fall and beyond. I am not sure why, but they seem to think so. it's very odd, people hated Tom Daschle as the leader in the Senate, but the same people love Obama and are convinced he's different. Or maybe just a better speaker.

[Zhade]

97. Wow, what a bullshit article geared toward helping Clinton cheat!

"Democrats have been struggling to find a way to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida" - no, cheaters have.

"With a virtual tie in both convention delegates and the nationwide popular vote" - Obama's leading, so this is another lie.

"neither candidate campaigned actively in Florida" - lie, Clinton did but called it a "fund raiser" (yet another lie from the Clinton camp).