Wall Street fears for next Great Depression

[SlowDownFast]

Source: The Independent

Wall Street fears for next Great Depression

By Margareta Pagano, Business Editor
Sunday, 16 March 2008

Wall Street is bracing itself for another week of roller-coaster trading after more than $300bn (£150m) was wiped off the US equity markets on Friday following the emergency funding package put together by the Federal Reserve and JPMorgan Chase to rescue Bear Stearns.

One UK economist warned that the world is now close to a 1930s-like Great Depression, while New York traders said they had never experienced such fear. The Fed's emergency funding procedure was first used in the Depression and has rarely been used since.

A Goldman Sachs trader in New York said: "Everyone is in a total state of shock, aghast at what is happening. No one wants to talk, let alone deal; we're just standing by waiting. Everyone is nervous about what is going to emerge when trading starts tomorrow."

In the UK, Michael Taylor, a senior market strategist at Lombard, the economics consultancy, said on Friday night: "We have all been talking about a 1970s-style crisis but as each day goes by this looks more like the 1930s. No one has any clue as to where this is going to end; it's a self-feeding disaster." Mr Taylor, who had been relatively optimistic, has turned bearish: "It really does look as though the UK is now heading for a recession. The credit-crunch means that even if the Bank of England cuts rates again, the banks are in such a bad way they are unlikely to pass cuts on."

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/wall-street-fears-for-next-great-depression-796428.html

[dbt]

1. Thank Goddess for the British Media!

The newspapers in England seem to still have a clue about news reporting. They're doing some FLAWLESS play-by-play on our descent into a Third World Economy.

Meanwhile in bu$h-O-Murka, we're right up to date on Britney's psychiatric records and Pari$ Hilton's search for a new BFF.

USA!
USA!
USA!

[deutsey]

59. BBC World reported on a "Hooverville"-like tent city

outside of LA where families whose homes were foreclosed are living.

[Joe Bacon]

93. But Katie the Whore says Brittney is MORE important!

Hoovervilles? Homeless? oh my goodness, Katie the Whore at See B S thinks that is of no concern to you at all. Besides, prosperity is just around the corner...

Why do I see articles in the Econominst, The Guardian and The Independent that are totally ignored by Jesusland's Corporate Controlled Conservative Press....hmmmmm CCCP, now where have I seen that acronym before??????

[sarcasmo]

190. Doing tent research lately online getting mine ready just in case. With sleeping bag and a cot.

[sueragingroz]

203. There's a tent city in Calgary

Because they can't build the houses fast enough for the folks who have migrated to that city for work.

http://hpn.asu.edu/archives/May98/0329.html

[0007]

68. we're right up to date on Britney's psychiatric records and Pari$ Hilton's search for a new BFF and

Tom Cruise and his Scientology beliefs.

And what was USA, USA USA is now

smegma!
smegma!
smegma!

Forecast for the next week. MIssing Mom. Cop beats shit out of common citizen. Shooting at high school. Some one famous dies. junior speaks to the country about the economy crisis. Hillary dumps on Barack. 90 year old grandma fucks up rape attempt, Rapist sez he'll leave the old ones for the GOP.

[high density]

69. I don't see much news reporting in this story. Lots of conjecture.

They found one Goldman Sachs trader that had a bad day. Then a guy named Michael Taylor doing what is basically a weather forecast for the stock market. I have to :eyes: at anybody who thinks they can predict the markets, and that includes both the CNBC tools and dire "get yer guns and ammo" folks here on DU.

[jaybeat]

96. Read the article

A Goldman Sachs trader in New York said: "Everyone is in a total state of shock, aghast at what is happening. No one wants to talk, let alone deal; we're just standing by waiting. Everyone is nervous about what is going to emerge when trading starts tomorrow."

<snip>

One of the problems facing the markets is that, despite the Fed's move last week to feed them another $200bn, the banks are still not lending to each other.

"This crisis is one of faith. We are going to see even more problems in the hedge funds as they face margin calls," said Mark O'Sullivan, director of dealing at Currencies Direct in London. "What we are waiting for now is for the Fed to cut interest rates again this week. But that's already been discounted by the market and is unlikely to help restore confidence."

Mr O'Sullivan added that the dollar's free-fall is set to continue and may need cuts in European interest rates to trim the euro's recent strength against the dollar. "But the ECB doesn't like cutting rates," he said.

We have someone in the middle of this along with two senior economic experts. They are speaking to their reading of the "pulse" of the markets, and of the parallels to previous downturns. Meanwhile, in the good ol' USA, Bush says things aren't so bad and the government shouldn't "overreact."

I'd say this article is a LOT more credible. Do you disagree?

[bulloney]

100. But, but, but, we're making sure that babies don't get aborted.

And that overrules anything else that this assclown Bush has accomplished since the 2000 junta.

[kath]

143. and, and, and we've got to make sure that gays and lesbians can't marry, and we've got to stop the

evil gay agenda!!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

106. dude, get your head out of the sand

ya, I'm one of those nutjobs here thats been warning people for over a year.

Sucks to be right sometimes. :(

[Fovea]

235. welcome fellow nutjob!

It sucks large to be Cassandra.

I came at it from the price of petroleum fuel and feedstocks.
The sub-prime bubble was a shocker. The combo of a three trillion in Iraq war debt, the liquidity disaster and $110/bbl oil is brutal.

This will force a drastic change in America life.
Also, in American politics. Imagine a sub-prime migrant army converging on the DC mall.

[cartach]

214. Doom,gloom,

fear and uncertainty. More of an attention getter than anything with a positive slant which offers solutions and hope. Panders to those who like moan ,groan, worry and dither and there seems to be a lot out there. Huffington had a headline something like....Treasury Secretary 'Defends' Lowering Interest Rate. I had read an earlier article on the topic elsewhere,can't remember how it was titled,but was left with the impression that he had praised it and was pleased with the action.

[TheWatcher]

220. And I have to roll my eyes at those who continue their scnitillating

Superior Indifference to what is truly going on in the Financial Markets.

They just continue to Pooh-Pooh EVERYTHING that sounds like Doom and Gloom to them.

If it sounds too scary or uncomfortable, it doesn't exist, it isn't real, it's conspiracy whackery, leave me alone so I can feel good and worry about what's on my favorite shows or my College Basketball Brackets.

A very Hard Rain is going to fall on this country.

Unfortunately, most are going to convince themselves the sky is still blue and won't even notice they are getting wet.

I posted this quote earlier today in another thread, but like I said then, it sums up perfectly the mentality of far too many people in what's left of our country. It was lifted form an article about Stagflation and Hyperinflation:

"It is becoming increasingly difficult for people who live in the real world to communicate with those who don't, and there is an increasing number of those who don't just simply because most people believe what they are told and the lies they are being told are now monumental. Astronomical in size. That's one of those universal rules about human beings; the majority will always go along with whatever you tell them. That's just the way it always has been and always will be. All good propagandists know that."

[BeHereNow]

223. "increasingly difficult for people who live in the real world ...

to communicate with those that don't"

"THOSE that DON'T"
"THOSE that DON'T"
"THOSE that DON'T"

Perfect summarization of the collective consciousness
or psychosis that has gripped the vast number of duh'murikkkans.

On the economy, on climate change, on Hill-bama-McCain sElections
on just about everything.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for sharing that quote Watcher.
BHN

[Tiberius]

226. Full article here

Great read:

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/harris/harris031408.html

[BeHereNow]

234. Thank ya kindly for the link! n/t

bhn

[IsItJustMe]

88. Ain't that America. Something to see, BABY.

[whistle]

142. Why not, this is one way the British monarchy can get the American Colonies back

[nxylas]

152. Hey, if it gets us universal healthcare...

Jus' saying, is all.

[tavalon]

196. Unfortunately, it's China that owns our ass now, not Britain

There will be some interesting changes under their rule but universal healthcare, not so much.

[CatholicEdHead]

2. Larry Kudlow will not say this much less the rest of CNBC

[WCGreen]

6. Larry Krudlow is a pompous Ass and I hope he has lost lots of money...

He is just so creepy...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

147. HE IS A RIGHT WING PROPAGANDIST

:crazy: :silly: :silly: :crazy: :silly:

[greyghost]

148. I hope the camera's are present when he jumps.

[Earth Bound Misfit]

205. lol! n/t

[Double T]

40. kudlow, bush, cheney and wall street........keeping America GREAT.........

GREAT DEPRESSION.

[PleaseSayItAintSo]

50. New Kudlow mantra

I admit it, I watched Kudlow and Company Friday evening just so I could have the pleasure of seeing The Capitalists squirm. It was delicious!

I was horrified, and mildly amused when I heard a couple of his guests suggest that congress should grant immunity to any and all companies involved in the mortgage crisis.

Instead of granting immunity piecemeal, don't you think we should just get it over with and congress should immunize ALL corporations for ALL their actions since 1789.

[H8fascistcons]

127. Sometings on the March...

Somethings on the march but it isn't freedom, its FASCISM!!!! Every time America buys into the free trade myth you help the criminal Fascist republicans and their corporate buddies to hold onto power..



*Please never forget that the criminal Fascist republicans could not continue to commit crimes against the constitution and us if the criminal Fascist enablers Nancy Pelosi, Rahm Emanuel, Jay Rockefeller, Harry Reed, Steny Hoyer would open impeachment hearings. The criminal Democrats do not get to pick and choose which crimes against the constitution to ignore...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

166. BINGO

IT'S THE CONSTITUTION, STUPID

YOU SAID IT.
Please never forget that the criminal Fascist republicans could not continue to commit crimes against the constitution and us if the criminal Fascist enablers Nancy Pelosi, Rahm Emanuel, Jay Rockefeller, Harry Reed, Steny Hoyer would open impeachment hearings. The criminal Democrats do not get to pick and choose which crimes against the constitution to ignore...

[deutsey]

171. We need to revive FDR's phrase: "Economic royalists"

Although "fascists" also fits the bill.

[ekwhite]

175. Fascists doesn't fit the bill

The term has been cheapened by overuse, and now means "people we don't like." Economic royalists hits the nail right on the head. I may have to start using that term.

[deutsey]

236. You say tomayto I say tomahto

A fascist by any other name still stinks.

[Earth Bound Misfit]

207. Time for change wrote about FDR's speech

FDR's New Deal, which helped end the Great Depression in the US, was largely a response to the 'economic royalists' of that generation. Today we are faced with a new generation of economic royalists, and we need to return to the democracy enhancing
In June of 1936, with Fascism on the rise in Europe, the man who is generally regarded as the second greatest president in the history of the United States gave one of the greatest speeches ever given in this country. In that speech Franklin Delano Roosevelt warned his countrymen, not of external dangers, but of the internal dangers to our country from what he called “economic royalists”.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/102


One of the Greatest Speeches I've Read.

[CatholicEdHead]

131. Boy, so much for taking responsibility

It is amazing to watch what over the top suggestions that they bring up to cover their behinds. Yet, it fits with the strategy, Privatize the profits, socialize the risks.

[Taverner]

137. Jim Cramer has hinted towards it

You can tell he probably isn't allowed to say much about it, but he's been putting out warnings...

[kelligesq]

181. Watch CNBC during day and hear panic in anchors' voices

[grytpype]

3. Hey, it's just a little "rough patch" according to Bush.

Better not over-react.

[nikto]

32. Yeah...

Tax cuts and some more weapons programs
will fix everything.

I puke on the joke that is KKKonservatism.
:puke::+

[leftrightwingnut]

78. Investment in weapons programs would be good for the economy.

Reagan proved that. It creates jobs and the spin-offs in the private sector are enormous. Fires the economy for years and years.

Instead, our defense money is being funneled to the war effort. Basic research, defense-oriented and not, has suffered greatly because were replacing spent bullets and destroyed and worn-out equipment.

These lame-os actually believe their own crap about tax cuts. Well, it doesn't work. The malls were crazy this weekend with people advance spending their tax rebates. (Everyone got the letters this week.) Unfortunately, buying stuff at the mall doesn't create jobs. All it manages to do is keep mall workers employed for another week or two.

[ldf]

108. investing in weapons programs

nothing like saving our asses on the backs of killing machines.

and just how large was the deficit raygun left us with? hmmmm? and who is the only president who has topped HIM? hmmmm?

if that is the only way our asses can be saved, they aren't worth saving.

we could just as easily do it on the backs of new green technologies that could help humankind.

but the corporations would have to invest long term rather than short, develop for purposes other than killing and pure profit, be less aware of their bottom line and more aware of national good, AND maybe even lower some CEO's salarie/golden parachutes after they have destroyed whole companies.

but they sure as hell are not going to do THAT.

:grr:

[ekwhite]

176. I agree we have better things to invest in than new weapons

But leftrightwingnut was correct in stating that Reagan used weapons programs to fire up the economy. That hypocrite was preaching Friedman's gospel while using Keynesian economics to prop up the economy. Star Wars was nothing but a militarized version of a jobs program.

The problem with military spending, as you point out, is that it is throwing money down a hole, for the most part. Spending on green technology, or energy efficiency would reap huge benefits for our country. We should have a national energy program similar to the space race, to develop energy technologies that will free us from dependence on foreign oil while creating jobs.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

189. investment in basic research lifts the entire ocean while patching leaks

the problem is that sometimes you run into a faux cowboy who thinks that weapons go stale if you don't exercise them.

[Spiffarino]

215. That's right. Weapons aren't an "investment"

Weapons can only get used up or become obsolete, and their use results in even greater economic loss.

Investing in infrastructure, farming, education, and science yields prolonged economic and social benefits. Putting money into war materiel takes away from all that, just like Eisenhower said so long ago.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

109. we should invest in more weapons to kill people??!

How bout we try investing in something non-violent, like green energy...

[kestrel91316]

119. For shame, Viva! That would actually make sense, and

we can't have any of THAT now, can't we??

[Viva_La_Revolution]

126. sorry...

don't know what I was thinking :crazy:

:hi:

[leftrightwingnut]

123. I do not think we should invest in offensive weapons programs! Sheesh. Give me a break.

We should invest in something, anything! Green energy programs would be perfect.

The point is that keeping the economy robust requires investment. And though weapons programs are repugnant, they do have benefits for the economy. Bushco has been cutting every investment program left and right, defense and otherwise. It's ridiculous.

BTW, the defense department (DARPA) has a huge initiative to develop 50% efficient solar panels in the private sector. And it actually is paying off.

The reason is that it costs $37 to deliver a single AA battery to a soldier in the field. Having 50% efficient solar panels eliminates the need for shipping batteries. The spin-offs on such a technology would have amazing consequences: practical solar-powered automobiles, for example. Think what it would do to get people off of the grid...

Keep in mind that not all "weapons" programs are offensive in nature.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

134. You said "weapons programs"

You chose those words.

And yes, ALL 'weapons programs' are offensive. Just because some good comes out of them, doesn't make them otherwise.

[H8fascistcons]

132. Green Energy?

Yes, green technology is a great idea but remember America if all you do is design these products here and have them made in China, it puts a few engineers to work locally but basically does nothing for the average American worker or the American economy. This just adds to the trade deficit putting more of our money into the pocket of China.

[SharonAnn]

129. Investment in infrastructure would be good for the economy.

It creates lots of jobs both immediately and longer-term. Helps citizens, businesses, and provides for the future with reduced costs then, also.

Education is also a good investment. The GI Bill proved that, and the post-Sputnik investments paid off handsomely.

The nice thing about these is that individuals benefit long-term from very positive things.

Killing and Death should not be the business model we choose.

[pokercat999]

163. and the Chinese, don't forget our friends in China..nt

[Hannah Bell]

228. nothing like pumping the economy by

building stuff you're gonna blow up. keeps the wheels of commerce turning.

[bluesmail]

114. When I get my humble $600 you know where it's going to go?

Right into the gas tank of my car, deliberately designed that way to give Big Oil a big-ass freebie.

[better tomorrow]

39. as he counts his trillions.....

[Divine Discontent]

4. K&R 4

:kick:


Depression will come if McCain is given the presidency. All of us should call on the obvious candidate of the two DEMS, who is behind, to drop the charade that she has a chance to win... I believe many of us will leave this country if McCain gets the white house.

[defendandprotect]

9. Where are you going --- ???

[Divine Discontent]

135. perhaps amsterdam, canada, or ireland. england is out of the question now. eom

[defendandprotect]

194. I understand this process can sometimes take two years . . . ???

My sister is in Ireland --- compliments of a husband who was born there and still has family there --- tho he lived in America most of his life --

West Coast --

Presume you are young . . . ???

[Divine Discontent]

210. under 40, if that's young.. lol depends on your opinion of it. lol eom

[defendandprotect]

216. Well, from the sense that I think they want young workers ---

and people with children

I'm guessing . . .

[Divine Discontent]

219. Oh, I getcha! thanks eom

[sce56]

25. A guy where I work said he's going to Canada if Obama wins I say good riddance to the Bigot!

I hate those asshats that who think like that, this guy did 12 in the Navy and could not stay in something about bigots unable to keep their cool under the sea for a long cruise worrying about those non whites taking his job away or some other such paranoia!

[Doctor Cynic]

26. LOL!

He'd probably commit suicide after realizing that we're an even greater bastion of homo-pinko communism than Obama ever will be!

[Double T]

41. obama will guide US out of the 2nd GREAT DEPRESSION?

WHO the HELL are YOU kidding. NOT wanting freshman Senator obama for president makes perfect sense and has absolutely NOTHING to do with bigotry.

[leftrightwingnut]

90. Well, actually, an inspirational leader is exactly what one needs in a depression.

I'm no fanatic of Obama or Clinton. But I've heard their speeches. Obama wins the inspirational requirement hands down.

Or were you thinking of McCain? ;-)

BTW, I think Obama and Clinton are both freshmen, no? And I've seen their legislative records. Obama's is far more impressive.

Peace, man. Not looking for a fight. Just my own somewhat detached observations. I've managed to keep out of the shit so far. And this discussion should really not be held here...

[Double T]

97. When I think of mccain it is the same as thinking about bush; nightmare.

Clinton is a second term senator, making her the Junior Senator to Schumer. Yep, obama certainly has made great progress; I feel a lot better knowing lobbyists and politicians are standing up instead of sitting down while they're screwing US.

[cliffordu]

213. delete, wrong criticism, wrong person. sorry.

[caledesi]

133. I agree! NT

[whatchamacallit]

107. Nobody, including Hillary, will simply "guide us out"

If this had an easy fix, or even one a nobel-prize-winning economist could devise, we'd be fixing it now. People waste too much energy trying to find "The One". What we need is a president who wants to do the right thing for all Americans. Someone you will know the difference between good and bad advice, and will act wisely. Obama COULD fill that bill.

[kelligesq]

154. Obama is in the hands of the lobbyists and the "New World Order"-another bushlite -who you kidding w

with Lieberman as his mentor - and his forgetfulnesss that it wasnt just an 80,000 contribution from Rezko, but $250,000 - and 20 years with a minister screaming G_dDamn America? And he never heard that hate speech?

What are you smoking?

[sce56]

125. I hear you on the freshman but I shudder to think of the alternatives U can see my 1st choice below

As far as the Bigot comment you have to know this guy to realize it is the color of skin that matters to him he hates those he has to work with the Mexicans, Filipino's and African Americans! I know him enough to see his prejudice's exposed on a daily basis!

[vssmith]

128. FDR led us out of the first Depression and he had never been in

the Senate

[kelligesq]

162. FDR was SDec of the Navy and a Governor - rather experienced dont you think? plus he

cared about the regular American because he knew them and lived with regular people because of longterm polio recuperation (actually he never recuperated, and he was lucky he lived.) The point is he knew suffering and what regualar Americans were going through.

[leftrightwingnut]

84. I remember being invited to go to Canada by a neocon...

when I was working near a polling place for the Kerry campaign years ago.

I stayed -- because I believe in 'merika! Your co-worker sounds like a radical, terrorist commie scubmag 'merika hater. Good riddance. Send him north, then put up the fence to keep him out. Bastard.

[Zhade]

160. That's sarcasm, right?

You can't mean anything so stupid.

[leftrightwingnut]

184. I didn't think the :sarcasm: was necessary.

:hi: Not with something so clearly stupid. I'll try to be more responsible about that.

[Divine Discontent]

136. what a bigot he is... wow. my BF's mom says she doesn't trust Obama

so after one turn at voting Democratic in '04, will be voting for Mc..... :puke: sorry... had trouble getting that out, Cain...

[JackDragna]

5. A disaster of Wall Street's own making..

..at least, in part. Wall Street has cheerleaded for every initiative meant to stifle worker pay and encourage long-term growth in capital in business. They love when people cut research and development to boost stock prices, love it when CEOs get paid massive salaries, love it when the workforce gets slashed. And now, here we are, with no middle class, with all the money concentrated in the hands of a few. Gee, I wonder how this happened..

[defendandprotect]

10. And if there is anything left to still be stolen, they'll still be working on it . . .

[Double T]

43. What goes around comes around....eventually.

Just make sure WE don't let the guys wearing $2,000.00 suits stand in the soup line with the rest of US.

[Seabiscuit]

53. Could you introduce me to this "Wall Street" guy? I'd like to punch him in the nose.

You know, the guy doing the cheerleading and all that lovin'.

[bulloney]

103. I've been alive for nearly 50 years. We've had Republican presidents for 30 of those years.

With the increased concentration of wealth into fewer hands through conservative policies, is there any wonder that we're facing the possibility, if not likelihood of a depression?

[defendandprotect]

218. We've had computer voting/counting for 30 years ... mid-1960's . . . !!!

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

In the mid-1960's the computers started coming in --
Jim & Ken Collier were two journalists who became suspicious of computeer voting ---
one of them had run for office in Florida ---
They began investigating ---
Had a book deal in the early 1970's --- and the book was suppressed.

Their family now keeps the website going ---
just to inform the public

You can read or scan their book at the website ---

[MrBlueSky]

159. Jack... excellent insight! Thanks!

I was thinking of the same thing. After Reagan won in a 1980 landslide, he lowered the top tax bracket from 70 or so to 39 or so.

But, the problem is, it didn't stop there... from kicking people out of mental institutions to welfare reform to now subsidizing the oil indu$try to tax breaks for the richest to stopping universal healthcare.

Where does it end?

The problems that began innocuously in 1981 are now biting these conservatives in the... erm... well.. you know (where the good Lord split them). Any capitalist society will cease to function if the middle class is squeezed too much. In 1981, it was not a problem... whelpers... it is a major problem now.

Welcome to Great Depression II where W is the new Herbert Hoover.

God help us all if McPuke wins the election!

[Zhade]

161. What kind of wine goes with the rich?

Just asking...

[Speaker]

225. Chianti.............and Fava Beans......n/t

[Earth Bound Misfit]

7. Empire on the Brink

Source: COUNTERPUNCH

Republicans and "Free Market" Zealots Bring Disaster to America
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

March 12. Crude oil for April delivery hit $110 per barrel. The US dollar fell to a new low against the Euro. It now takes $1.55 to purchase one Euro. These new highs against the dollar are the ongoing story of the collapse of the US dollar as world reserve currency and corresponding collapse of American power.

Each new decision from the insane Bush regime pushes the dollar a little further along to oblivion. The same Fed announcement that boosted the stock market on March 11 sent the dollar reeling and the price of oil up...The US economy, which has been kept alive by enormous debt expansion that has over-reached its limit, is falling into recession. The traditional way out by expanding the supply of money and credit is blocked by the impaired banking system, the levels of consumer debt, the collapsing value of the US dollar, and rising inflation. The Bush regime is attempting to bypass the stalled credit expansion by sending Americans $600 checks, money that will mainly be used to reduce existing credit card debt and not to fund new consumption...

The bottom line: US power is enfeebled... US power depends on the willingness of foreigners to finance our wars and...continue to accumulate depreciating dollar assets. The US cannot close its trade deficit. Oil prices are rising, and offshore production of goods and services for US markets results in increase in imports, while reducing the supply of domestic goods available for export... The US cannot close its budget deficit while it is squandering vast sums on wars that serve no US purpose, handing out $150 billion in red ink rebates, and falling into recession.

US living standards...will plummet once dollar decline forces China off the dollar peg. So far prices of the Chinese-made goods on Wal-Mart shelves have not risen... In a word, tottering US living standards are being supported by China’s willingness to subsidize US consumption by keeping its currency grossly undervalued.

Read More: http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03132008.html
At least we got the complete scoop on "Kristen" & her family!

The US is overextended economically and militarily, just as was Great Britain with the fall of France in the opening days of World War II. The British had the Americans to bail them out. After the chewing gum and bailing wire patch-ups are exhausted, who is going to bail us out?

[Ghost Dog]

48. Bloomberg's been reporting most of the truth for some time now

(at least in text). See eg.:

Rating Subprime Investment Grade Made `Joke' of Credit Experts

By Kathleen M. Howley

Dec. 20 (Bloomberg) -- As storm clouds gathered over New York on July 10, Standard & Poor's started a 10 a.m. conference call to discuss why the credit rating company was about to take its most dramatic action in more than two years.

S&P analysts said they might cut ratings on $12 billion of the world's worst-performing subprime mortgage bonds, some of them less than a year after they had been given investment-grade designations. Not since 2005, when it downgraded Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp., had S&P generated so much attention.

...

``The idea that the rating agencies are impartial in the world of structured finance is a joke,'' Rosner says. ``The issuers use the publicly available model to structure a pool and then sit down with the rating agencies to fine-tune it until they reach the desired rating.''

...

One $720 million loan pool created by Tokyo-based Nomura Holdings Inc. was rated Baa3, an investment-grade rating, by Moody's when issued in 2006. Now, it's rated Caa1, seven levels deep into junk-bond territory, and priced at 32 percent of the original value after 29 percent of the mortgages defaulted.

Almost 40 percent of the loans in the pool were originated by Costa Mesa, California-based Quick Loan Funding, run by Daniel Sadek, a broker who started the subprime company in 2002 with the motto: ``You can't wait. We won't let you.''

It wasn't the first misstep by Moody's, founded in 1900 by former Wall Street errand runner John Moody. Nor was it a first for Standard & Poor's, started in 1860 by Henry Poor, a Maine farm boy turned journalist known for citing ``the investor's right to know.''

The raters faced vitriol and lawsuits in 2001 when they were slow to downgrade Enron Corp. and WorldCom Inc. as accounting discrepancies emerged. In Enron's case a downgrade would have put the Houston-based energy company into default because of so-called rating triggers on its bonds. The rating companies were also criticized in 1994 for keeping bonds sold by Orange County, California, at investment grade even as the county filed the nation's largest municipal bankruptcy.

...

Jose Sepulveda's Pension

In coming months, subprime losses will reach into almost every home in the U.S. as pension funds reveal setbacks, the former Moody's analyst Raynes says. Some funds won't show the extent of their subprime losses until they issue reports for the current fiscal year, some as late as September 2008.

``The smallest investor, not Wall Street, is the one who will pay the ultimate price because he trusted the fund managers who blindly followed the rating agencies,'' Raynes says.

Jose Sepulveda, 57, worked 34 years as a reading teacher and elementary school principal in southern Texas towns along the banks of the Rio Grande, the border between the U.S. and Mexico. Now retired in Weslaco, Texas, he says he thought he was as far as he could be from the mortgage crisis roiling markets in New York, London and Tokyo.

He wasn't far enough. The Austin-based Teacher Retirement System of Texas, the manager of Sepulveda's retirement money, holds $6 billion of securities backed by assets that include subprime mortgages, most of it rated AAA, according to a report on the fund's Web site.

``How could anyone think that investments backed by subprime loans were safe?'' Sepulveda says.

(TOMORROW: Subprime mortgage-related securities cripple world credit markets.)

To contact the reporter on this story: Kathleen M. Howley in Boston at [e-mail].
Last Updated: December 20, 2007 00:21 EST

[bulloney]

104. It seems all we can do to goose the economy is drop interest rates.

That's just a short-term fix that puts us deeper into debt. That's the basis for the predicament we're in...TOO MUCH DEBT!

[Oldtimeralso]

8. proud to K & R #5

The good ol' USA
Where the greedy take from the needy.

[onehandle]

11. Swell. Heads on pikes time, boys and girls. Heads on pikes.

Bridge optional.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superkia]

28. You left out all of the silent, enabling so called good ones!

All of this that has been destroying our country isn't one group of people and it certainly isn't just a republican thing. Thats why we are in the mess we are in, people think that if a democrat is in office, they will take care of us and we don't pay attention or get involved. Look at how things have went the past 50 years, technology improves, efficiency and business profits have grown and the American public have worked more and are paid less. With inflation due to our fake money system, it will only continue to get worse unless we do away with it and go back to currency thats is actually backed by something.

Many believe that the federal reserves purpose is to slowly run us all into poverty through inflation, for control reasons and thats exactly what its been doing. If Americans continue to ignore the corruption that is also on the democratic side, we are doomed .

[Javaman]

74. Well, there is a pike shortage after all!! LOL nt

[superkia]

105. Sometimes I come to this board and a simple reply gives me...

a good laugh, they say that laughing can lower blood pressure so thanks for the laugh. Most of the time this site can frustrate me with some of the topics and replies but its always great to actually laugh out loud sitting in from of the screen.

[Javaman]

130. My job is done! :)

Cheers!

[Cobalt-60]

45. A beautiful display.

I'd love to make it reality.

[sendero]

55. Incredible..

... LOL :)

[leftrightwingnut]

94. a;lsdk.cc

:rofl:

You can leave out Ray-gun. Oh, he *talked* a good, neocon line. But... he didn't actually cut taxes and, though I strongly disagree with the way he did it, he did invest hugely in the economy. (Although, thinking about it: that may not have been intentional.)

These idiots think that one can just take their hands off the wheel and the ship will steer itself...and fill itself with fuel. Morons.

[Hannah Bell]

229. He did, in fact, cut taxes.

And "invest in the economy" = defense spending.

[tomreedtoon]

29. You'll never get those heads on pikes.

I realize this is a terrible disappointment for all of you who have been longing for some kind of Bolshevik revolution, but you will never get anywhere near the rich and powerful. In case you didn't notice, their description includes "rich" and "powerful." They have security guards and police and big, thick walls to keep you away. Bush isn't even going to stay in this country after he leaves office. He's going down to some little banana republic to a reinforced bunker to drink himself to death.

Check your history. The people that caused the Great Depression such as Hoover and Coolidge didn't suffer a whit of anything except public embarassment. The people who ruined Wall Street in that depression didn't even jump out windows to a great extent (no matter what the legends say). They retired sassy, fat and happy until their dying day. And the atheists here don't even have the satisfaction of imagining that these bastards will go to Hell for what they did to us.

Sucks, don't it?

[fasttense]

60. Hmm, I'm not sure we will follow in the footsteps of the original

Republican Great Depression.

Perhaps a more apt example would be the fascist Benito Mussolini.

Mussolini and his mistress were both shot, along with most of the members of their 15-man train, primarily ministers and officials of the Italian Social Republic. The shootings took place in the small village of Giulino di Mezzegra. On April 29, 1945 , the bodies of Mussolini and his mistress were taken to the Piazzale Loreto (in Milan) and hung upside down on meat hooks from the roof of a gas station, then stoned by civilians from below. This was done both to discourage any fascists from continuing the fight and as an act of revenge for the hanging of many partisans in the same place by Axis authorities. The corpse of the deposed leader became subject to ridicule and abuse.

[NYC]

188. Picture of Mussolini & Claudia hanging at the gas station:

[onehandle]

63. This is how it works.

The protectors of the rich and super-rich are only paid so much. Their friends and family start suffering and they ask for more and more money to help them and of course themselves.

Eventually the Master says no more. This is the critical moment.

France, 1789.

[greyghost]

157. Ding,Ding,Ding! We have a winner!

[leftrightwingnut]

98. Piking and burning effigies is great fun... and harmless.

The last thing we want is an actual uprising. These guys will come down on the people so fast and hard, the constitution will only be the stuff of legend.

I'd rather keep calm and put them out peacefully. Then they will go down in history as the bozos that *nearly* destroyed the American experiment, not the ones who actually ended it.

[zonmoy]

113. figure that when things get bad enough.

the people will rebel. then I wonder how long those security forces will last against all the rest of the people.

[kelligesq]

158. Hey, there's always hope that the Hague will get them even if our reps are too cowardly to do their

duty. Look at Allende and Pinochet and Taylor --- the Hague catches up with them after awhile. And when the billionaires are losing billions they just might not care to visit kenny buunk puert any more.

Just to cheer you up - did you read that Carlyle Group defaulted on 300 million
this week :D - giant grin. No liquidity.

And guess where "The Blind Trust" (wink wink) is ?

[Zhade]

167. This is why I strongly favor nonlethal revolution.

Effective, and good PR.

[tomreedtoon]

211. That's like decaffeinated coffee. It's pointless.

To explain: the only reason you drink coffee is to ingest caffein. The stuff tastes like sewage. You only drink it to stay awake.

Nonviolent revolution is ineffective and emotionally unsatisfying. Why do you think people here are so hot to lynch Bush and company? They don't want justice. They want blood. In that, they are just like every other human being that was ever born.

[zonmoy]

110. hopefully while the bodies of these fat bastards

gets given to the poor to eat. since they aren't giving them much else to eat.

[AngryOldDem]

117. There are days when I think that is the only way out of this mess.

French Revolution redux. Just level the damned playing field and start over from scratch.

[kestrel91316]

121. I'm handy with a blade. Here's a toy I haven't had a chance

to play with yet, but I could be recruited.

[GuvWurld]

12. I can't stop reading financial news lately

If you have never been to the GuvWurld News Archive, permit me to hip you. We're coming up on the fifth anniversary. Nearly 6,000 articles the government and media would probably prefer history not record from this period. They are organized by topic, and within each topic you can sort by date. So here is the link to the economy section with the latest stories at the top, what I haven't been able to stop reading lately.

http://www.guvwurld.org/cgi-bin/live.cgi?d=/Economy&sort=date

[Earth Bound Misfit]

16. Thx for the link!

:kick:

[GuvWurld]

18. Welcome to DU EBM

I get the Floyd reference :hi:

Here's another. Maybe you can help. I want to see someone do a flash cartoon of Bush in a prison cell with the Floyd lyrics: "...exchange a walk on part in a war for a lead role in a cage...oh, how I wish you were here." Got skillz? Know anybody who might take it on?

[Earth Bound Misfit]

138. Skillz? Me? This is me...

at my computer::argh: Thx for the welcome and your GREAT site!

I will ask a few friends who I suspect might have the savvy to put something together re: Shrub in a prison uni/cell cartoon.

:hi:

[Earth Bound Misfit]

145. Here's a guy with "Skillz"

http://weblogs.newsday.com/news/opinion/walthandelsman/blog/

Check out some of his animated cartoons: http://weblogs.newsday.com/news/opinion/walthandelsman/blog/2007/10/walt_handelsmans_animations.html


Ga$ Price$


Wall Street...


Thanks for the help...

[elleng]

19. In case you've missed this,

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/business/15regulate.html?ref=business

[GuvWurld]

22. Thanks

Archived it.

[elleng]

23. Excellent collection you've got.

So much to learn! Too bad that you know who doesn't know about it. But at least some do.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/business/16bernanke.html?ref=business

[Mojorabbit]

21. Great site! Thanks n/t

[Ghost Dog]

49. Good selection

:thumbsup: --> :thumbsdown:

[Orrex]

13. This is all because the Dems refused to make those tax cuts permanent

Those poor, poor super-wealthy citizens, struggling with their eight-figure equity. How can any reasonable person expect them to cope?

[defendandprotect]

14. Have either of the Dem candidates mentioned any of this --- ???

[Kool Kitty]

17. No, they're too busy throwing shit at each other.

[SOS]

120. Perhaps the collapse of the US financial sector

will cause the cable news entertainers to shift their focus from Ferarro and Wright?

[Golden Raisin]

33. They should be hammering BushCo

& the Repubs 24/7 on the total destruction of the U.S. economy which is happening before our eyes and which will continue to deteriorate. They should be hammering 24/7 on the public Rape of our Constitution for the last 7 years. Has either of them talked seriously and loudly about Abu Ghraib and how Americans are officially torturers now?

[CountAllVotes]

15. K&R

:kick: & recommend!! :scared:

[bhikkhu]

20. Wall Street has Big Ben, the Depression Expert...

Who has merely found us the path less trod to the same destination...sorry, that's a bit of pessimism about six months in advance of reality. Pleasant dreams.

[conflictgirl]

27. How much should I let this affect my decisions?

I live in MI where the economy is really, really bad (as I've mentioned before, I've been looking for a f/t job since I got my degree last August and can't find one here) and am strongly considering moving back to TX where the economy is better. How much should I let this story and all of the many similar ones impact my decisions about whether to stick it out here or move where it's better (at least for now)?

I realize this probably sounds like I'm making it all about me, but maybe it's relevant to others too. Is this a bad time to make a change like that?

[magellan]

30. I saw a map on tv the other night

...that showed the economy in the midwest, TX included I believe, was doing okay compared to the rest of the US -- SO FAR. Please research it carefully for yourself and remember that if the economy gets as bad as many believe it will, the middle part of the country will feel the effects eventually too. No one will be immune (unless they have lots of money and land in Paraguay). You might land yourself a fine job in TX only to be among the first turned off when it gets rough.

During the (first) Great Depression, many Americans became migrants in search of jobs and a brighter outlook. And it's always a good idea to look for something better when your current environment isn't handing you much opportunity. Just be aware of the risks in unstable times like these.

[reggie the dog]

64. The Grapes of Wrath

[Homer Wells]

95. Well, chances are

you won't freeze to death in Texas!
:shrug:

[MilesColtrane]

111. Texas is always 12 to 16 months behind the economic trend...

...of the rest of the country for some reason.

When Bush retires here he can say to himself, "Hey, it ain't so bad. Legacy here I come."

[Mithreal]

35. My wife and I moved out of MI ahead of the worst troubles.

If you can't find a job there, you have to move somewhere you can find work. Just do it, but make sure you can afford to live in the new place and the new place is safe, right?

Someone else advised people to only buy necessities and pay down debt now, that seems good advice.

I empathize, it's a tough call. Do that coin flip trick and whatever it comes up as, your reaction to it will really tell you what you want to do.

Don't do anything that will cause you to increase credit card debt. I don't know anything about your situation, I am just trying to send some good thoughts your way from another former Michigander. So, I realize this is pretty silly to write a response but like I said I empathize.

[BearSquirrel2]

101. The guy at the bike shop ...

The guy who runs my bike shop commented that $8 per gallon gas would be VERY good for his business. I consider my growing stable of bicycles as future proofing myself!!!

[girl gone mad]

37. If I were you..

I would leave Michigan unless you have a good reason to stay. I don't see a serious recovery for the state within the next 5 to 10 years. Even if big business wanted to bring manufacturing back, it would take time. If you are young, it might be best to stay flexible by renting wherever you choose to go, that way you can follow the job market. Many people are stuck in MI because of homes or family.

Things are okay here in Texas, but I expect we will face our own hardships. I think we're too dependent on IT jobs. We did not see the kind of run-up in housing prices which took place in the hot bubble markets, but we did see much growth from people fleeing those overpriced locales. Builders overbuilt.

[defendandprotect]

217. Electric Cars could bring it back --- subsidize both mfg and purchase . . .

We'd be doing a hell of a lot for Global Warming ---
and cut off the oil industry and the car manufacturers who seem to do their bidding ---

[better tomorrow]

31. I still need a question answered....

My husband is getting ready to retire this summer. He has a pension coming from an oil company which is now being held by a chemical company. They tell us it is an annuity, but we don't know which kind or who holds it. What is the best thing for us to do? We are not economic geniuses, so don't know whether to get it out of the company and reinvest or trust that it will continue to be there and take monthly payments. Are annuities guaranteed?

They are supposed to be sending us the monthly amount and paperwork to decide how to take it, but so far nothing has come. I am starting to get worried with everything else that is going on and the stock market.

Can someone out there who deals with this kind of thing please steer me toward some answers?

[dixiegrrrrl]

139. what I did with my annuity was

Lookrd up the type or name on google, got some basic Internet education on it.
turned out I could not move it for 7 years, but then my options would be:

1. move the 402 (k) annuity amount from the company that held it to another company.
This would make end the annuity status, but the money would be intact in the 401.

2. Keep it in the annuity company and arrange payouts if I was old enuff to start payouts.
I wasn't old enuff.
And I did not trust AIG insurance company, had read too much about their sneaky behavior.

I moved it, from AIG to Vanguard Money Market.
called Vangaurd and got directions on how to do it.
Had to fill out forms from both companies, money was moved without me touching it, thereby no taxes taken out. AIG bitched and moaned, but finally did the paperwork when they realized I was serious.

Been with Vanguard since 1993, cannot say enuff good things about them.
We have moved most of our retirement money into their Money Market funds, I closed out the REIT fund there 11 months ago, after making a pretty good profit, knew from reading good financial info. The party was over for stock and REITS.
Now I am watching Vanguard closely and figuring out how much cash I should just put under the matress.

In short, I feel better having my retirement money where I can get it fast.

[uberblonde]

195. Vanguard's pretty good.

Jack Bogle says Vanguard is one of the few funds whose management thought CDOs were too risky to invest in.

[better tomorrow]

206. thanks but I'm still confused....the annuity can

be started to be drawn on since hubby is old enough to get it w/o any penalty (at 62) since he worked for them for almost 30 years. I believe it is held in the company but we don't really know for sure since the companies have merged three times since he left the original one. They are global as far as I know and their balance sheet is ok for now but I guess what I really need to know is if it is safe to keep it in a company and if that money will always be mine or if we should withdraw it and move it elsewhere (I don't think there will be any penalties there either). I guess the best thing I need to do is really find a financial advisor but will they advise me for free? Gosh, I didn't think retirement was going to be this hard. I'm just glad we have some money....for now. I do know that I can get it if I am still living after he dies (I am only 56) and I guess I'm lucky in that respect compared to what I am hearing from others on the board about their circumstances. Thanks for taking the time to try to help me, though.

[girl gone mad]

34. I think the Euro will be heading down..

with the dollar next week.

The one bright spot for many retailers has been international sales, particularly Europe. If that goes away, expect some big name retailers shuttering their doors. The snowball is gaining momentum.

[Ghost Dog]

52. Could be.

Especially if they try forex 'intervention' - throwing Euros down the hole in an attempt to halt the dollar's slide...

[kelligesq]

164. The Euro hasnt gone down in two years-steady up - why would you think it's heading south ?

[girl gone mad]

172. Because much of Europe is in..

the same derivatives/liquidity/solvency mess that we are in. England, Spain, and Italy have real estate bubbles even worse than ours. Interest rates are headed down. The strong Euro has been hurting exports. Germany is well positioned, though.

[kelligesq]

180. Deutsche Bank writing off billions each quarter having bought US Sub-primes BUT

they are still in much better shape than we are - apparently more diversified.
The American sub-primes are hurting European banks who bought them as packages from our Wall Street

but I had heard nothing of
those countries being in real estate bubble themselves -

dont think they were
selling sub-prime mortgages themselves were they???

or were they?

[girl gone mad]

221. Yes, they were engaged in sup-prime lending.

I don't know if it ever reached the same extent as here, but my friends who live, work and travel extensively in Europe have reported back to me for years about the property bubble.

Here is a recent article I found via google which predicts a real-estate led recession in many parts of Europe:

http://www.nysun.com/article/70972

Is Europe's Housing Market Next?

By DANIEL GROS
Project Syndicate
February 8, 2008

A bubble in the American housing market — fueled in part by subprime mortgages — was the catalyst for yesterday's financial market turbulence.

But the bubble was not confined to America. In Europe, house prices have also increased sharply over the last decade — more dramatically than in America in many cases. The same is true of other OECD countries and emerging markets, where rapidly increasing incomes have put pressure on asset prices.

Indeed, with a few exceptions, essentially Germany and Japan, housing prices have risen almost everywhere to levels never seen before. How could such a global pattern emerge when real estate is the most local of all assets?

Recent research suggests that the global housing boom was closely linked to the unprecedented increase in the supply of liquidity by major central banks. To be sure, financial innovation, like lending to buyers who would not normally have qualified for mortgage loans, subprime borrowers, also played a role. But subprime mortgages would probably not have been supplied on the same scale if central banks had not created an environment of ample liquidity and persistently low interest rates.

The subprime crisis has so far affected mainly financial markets in America and Europe. This is not surprising if one considers that on both sides of the Atlantic prices have reached historical peaks and, until recently, had accelerated.

[Hannah Bell]

230. Much of europe has had a re bubble.

for similar reasons as in the us.

[kenoma]

197. Britain isn't in the eurozone

n/t

[girl gone mad]

222. Thanks.

I don't know why I still have that disconnect in my brain. Was there not too long ago and had to convert from Euros to Pounds.

Welcome to DU, btw.

[McCamy Taylor]

36. They just noticed? I have been writing about this at Salon for almost a year.

We have all the right ingredients.

[truthisfreedom]

38. Its almost as if bushco timed this to coincide with the Antarctic shelf dropping into the ocean.

Drove everything to the limit, emptying out the Treasury coffers, maxing out our country's credit, sending as many billion dollars as possible into war profiteers' pockets, just in time for the end of the world as we know it.

[Double T]

46. Yep. President Armageddon and his uncle dick still have 10 months.........

to complete their TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the the world.

[better tomorrow]

47. I think you are right. Remember, he said once upon a time that....

"he's the one"

[jus_the_facts]

65. "History, we'll all be dead." Bush's stairway to paradise

Early on and riding high, he expressed contempt for history. "History, we'll all be dead," he sneered to Bob Woodward in an interview for "Bush at War," a panegyric to Bush the triumphant after the Afghanistan invasion and before Iraq.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/20/bush_draper/

[Thepricebreaker]

42. wow.. UK paper talking about our depression.. n/t

[Ghost Dog]

51. The UK is also in line to get screwed;

The City of London is hand-in-glove (or should that read, in-pocket) with Wall Street, and represents perhaps an even larger proportion of the economy.

[kineneb]

179. um, screwed...

I would say they are attached by some other appendage... just guessing from what I read- their real estate loan problems are at least as bad as ours...

[better tomorrow]

44. Jobs good here in NE Florida and Bush.......

coming to Jacksonville on Tuesday to talk up the economy. The port is expanding big time and they are clamoring for shuttle truck drivers. Guess it will pay pretty good and you all know that China ships daily.....

And, besides, the weather is nice.....Lots of brand new houses to buy and lately they are practically giving them away..... :sarcasm:

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. Note from Backlash to Wall Street:

A Depression? That's something you all greedy fucking bastards should have thought about ten years ago when you started misusing your power to deregulate the industry.

Unbelievable. They should all lose their jobs. Oh, look, they will.

[Caradoc]

56. Free markets, free of responsibility

Notice how when times are good, Wall Street screams 'deregulate! tax cuts! keep government out of our face!', and then when it all starts unravelling, who do they get to bail them out? Not just a US problem...Canada and Europe too.

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. I can't believe they're there crying, "Help us!, Help us!"

Oh, Martha! What's going to become of us? We're going to lose the Plasma, the Benz, the house on the lake, dinners at Le Bernardin. We'll have to live like, like, all those people we screwed over when we rigged the markets.

[Thor_MN]

71. Correction, we all will.

[The Backlash Cometh]

122. They don't care. They never did.

[madrchsod]

58. bill clinton signs the repeal of the glass-steagal act...

and the world is paying the price.


"After 12 attempts in 25 years, Congress finally repeals Glass-Steagall, rewarding financial companies for more than 20 years and $300 million worth of lobbying efforts. Supporters hail the change as the long-overdue demise of a Depression-era relic.

On Oct. 21, with the House-Senate conference committee deadlocked after marathon negotiations, the main sticking point is partisan bickering over the bill's effect on the Community Reinvestment Act, which sets rules for lending to poor communities. Sandy Weill calls President Clinton in the evening to try to break the deadlock after Senator Phil Gramm, chairman of the Banking Committee, warned Citigroup lobbyist Roger Levy that Weill has to get White House moving on the bill or he would shut down the House-Senate conference. Serious negotiations resume, and a deal is announced at 2:45 a.m. on Oct. 22. Whether Weill made any difference in precipitating a deal is unclear.

On Oct. 22, Weill and John Reed issue a statement congratulating Congress and President Clinton, including 19 administration officials and lawmakers by name. The House and Senate approve a final version of the bill on Nov. 4, and Clinton signs it into law later that month.

Just days after the administration (including the Treasury Department) agrees to support the repeal, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, the former co-chairman of a major Wall Street investment bank, Goldman Sachs, raises eyebrows by accepting a top job at Citigroup as Weill's chief lieutenant. The previous year, Weill had called Secretary Rubin to give him advance notice of the upcoming merger announcement. When Weill told Rubin he had some important news, the secretary reportedly quipped, "You're buying the government?"



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html
frontline: the wall street fix: mr. weill goes to washington: the long demise of glass-steagall | PBS

[bluerum]

70. That is a great link. Thanks for posting. The run-up to the mortgage backed securities fiasco.

In the spring of 1987, the Federal Reserve Board votes 3-2 in favor of easing regulations under Glass-Steagall Act, overriding the opposition of Chairman Paul Volcker. The vote comes after the Fed Board hears proposals from Citicorp, J.P. Morgan and Bankers Trust advocating the loosening of Glass-Steagall restrictions to allow banks to handle several underwriting businesses, including commercial paper, municipal revenue bonds, and mortgage-backed securities. Thomas Theobald, then vice chairman of Citicorp, argues that three "outside checks" on corporate misbehavior had emerged since 1933: "a very effective" SEC; knowledgeable investors, and "very sophisticated" rating agencies. Volcker is unconvinced, and expresses his fear that lenders will recklessly lower loan standards in pursuit of lucrative securities offerings and market bad loans to the public. For many critics, it boiled down to the issue of two different cultures - a culture of risk which was the securities business, and a culture of protection of deposits which was the culture of banking.

on edit: added the quote - emphasis mine.

[madrchsod]

73. this was posted several times last week

sometimes the core of a problem gets over looked in the hysteria

[bluerum]

83. Missed it. The history is complex and reading the article raises a plethora of questions.

I am not a financial person by any means, but it does not take a financial genius to see the potential for conflicts of interest when banks are allowed to underwrite securities for clients.

The chickens are coming home to roost.

[reggie the dog]

61. i think I am going to turn my stocks into gold

or silver

[louis-t]

112. That's what the rich are doing.

Notice all the "Gold Parties" advertised everywhere with the doddering old woman who excitedly exclaims "I GOT $600 FOR MY GOLD!1!!1"
My guess is that gold is being bought from people willing to give up heirlooms and trinkets from better times for half of what they're worth on the open market. Who's buying up all the gold? People who realize that the markets are not a safe investment, the value of the dollar will continue to shrink, and securities are not that secure.

[southern_belle]

62. k & r

[Amonester]

66. What? Warll $treet's Done Everything They Could To...

Make It Happen On Purpose And Now They... Fear For It??

[Ghost Dog]

67. Here is some of what the (London) Times has to say today:

...THE wider implications of the Bear Stearns crisis are still sinking in. The Fed’s announcement of a huge injection of liquidity earlier last week was initially greeted with euphoria on Wall Street, with the Dow Jones industrial average leaping by more than 400 points. An announcement by Standard & Poors, the ratings agency, that write-downs from sub-prime mortgages were past the halfway mark and likely to be limited to $285 billion also helped sentiment.

All that, however, was forgotten on Friday. “People are having to get out their history books,” said Nick Stamenkovic, an economist with RIA Capital Markets. “The debate was about whether America would have a recession. Now it is about how deep it will be.”

One prominent Wall Street adviser described the credit crunch as “a five-act Shakespearean tragedy” with a long way to run. There would be times when the mood appeared to be lightening but people should not be fooled by them, he said. “I think we’re still in act one.”

...

The National Bureau of Economic Research is regarded as the official arbiter of US recessions. By careful analysis of the data, it pinpoints when the American economy dips in and out of recession, usually many months after the event.

This time, however, Martin Feldstein, its president, is not waiting. Feldstein, a former chairman of the White House’s Council of Economic Advisers under Ronald Reagan, said on Friday that America was in a recession that could be “substantially more severe” than recent ones.

“The situation is bad and getting worse,” he said in a speech in Florida. “There’s no doubt that this year and next year are going to be very difficult years.”

America was not heading for a rerun of the great depression, Feldstein added, but could be facing its worst recession since the second world war, partly because aggressive cuts in interest rates by the Federal Reserve - with another expected this week - are prevented by the credit crisis from having their normal impact.

...

Stephen Lewis, an economist with the fund manager Insinger de Beaufort, said the big question was the degree of “contagion” from the financial sector to the wider economy. “What we are seeing is a very big problem for the global financial sector,” he said. “Whether the economic effects are as serious, even in America, remains to be seen. The question is whether we need investment banks as much as they think we need them.”

That is the big question, and not just in America. Gerard Lyons, head of research at Standard Chartered, the international bank, said emerging economies were still holding up well. “I don’t like to use the word decoupling, but there is a degree of insulation from America’s problems.” he said. “But the dollar is the real issue.”

/short snip from long article... http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article3558517.ece

[totodeinhere]

72. Will it be too late to fix this mess in January 2009?

That's my greatest fear. By the time the Dems can take executive power in January 2009 and be in a position to try to fix this, it will be too late.

[bluerum]

85. That will be their challenge for the next 4 four years. Turning it around.

If they can do that, they will have the next four years (2012-2015) locked up.

[skooooo]

75. "No one has any clue as to where this is going to end.."

If that's the case, is it really wise to panic right now??

[fascisthunter]

76. May as Well Call it Whore Street

Time to RICO the pimps.

[Sam Ervin jret]

77. This country needs to stop spending money killing and start a "Manhattan project"type program that

gets us off fossil fuels and makes us energy independent.

What are we so stupid we can't find a new way to create energy that doesn't endanger the world?

Material scientist in small labs across the country are working on new materials to make solar energy more efficient. And wind energy has not been explored enough as well as geothermal. And many other ideas as well. Imagine if we put all these scientist together, funded and supported them?


And then took these discoveries and mass produced them for our homes. In our own factories. In our own country. With our own people.

WWII saved America from the great depression. We have been having one war after another. To the point where we started to have wars on improper nouns like poverty, drugs, terror.

Well we need a war on our own stupidity and our addiction to fossil fuels. For ourselves, our economy, and our world.

as they said in the "six million dollar man", we have the technology we can rebuild (him)/this country. make it better....

[bluerum]

86. Big oil lobby says no - not yet.

[kelligesq]

151. Nationalize the f_ _ _ _ _ _ g oil. They've been living rent free with 100 year leases they never

paid the rent on. Time of crisis - shortages - they dont want to cooperate - Nationalize.

[Doctor_J]

79. How can a middle American insulate himself?

I am early 50's. Wife & I, after 25 years in the workforce, have about $150K in cash, house w/ a $180K mortgage, $100K in stocks/equities, steady, unspectacular jobs, and $250K in 401(k) type stuff. What's our move?

[Gonnuts]

87. What the @$#% are you bitching about?

By any one's standards you seem to be doing okay. You'll have enough to weather the storm for a little while, but you can kiss your stocks and 401's good-bye. Other than that you can join the rest of us in the bread-lines or the detention camps. Hardly anyone is going to escape what's coming down.

Invest in hand tools and learn how to use them and seeds and learn how to plant a garden.

Welcome to the New World Order.

[Doctor_J]

89. Not bitching. Just wondering how to protect 30 years of work

We have a garden, I do a bit of my own handiwork, and we give pretty generously to local charitable entities in time and money. We raised two spectacular daughters, and would like to leave the country and the world a better place than we found it. We'd also live out our last 20 years in some peace and comfort, and if we can do that by making some sound moves right now, I'd like to know about it.

:wtf:

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. Depends on your expectations

1) if you think that the US currency will continue to drop and only moderate recession will affect the rest of the world, buy stocks which hold assets of real value (precious metals or oil vgpmx or vgenx) or invested in non-dollar denominated assets.
2) if you think that the worldwide market will have a huge drop, buy insurance in the form of puts.
3) if you agree with most DU'ers, you should invest in shotgun ammo and barrels of gasoline with which to power your fleet of marauders Mad-Max style.

For the last few years, I've been in camp #1, but I'm wondering if I should move into camp #2.

[SlowDownFast]

146. Safest places:

1.) As long as the dollar continues to be devalued, gold and silver.

2.) Bear market mutual funds such as BEARX or GRIZZX or MERKX.

3.) Short-term US Treasury Bills (treasurydirect.gov). 4 week Bills are best, they only take 4 weeks to mature, just keep rolling them over until you decide to liquidate. You can transfer funds to any bank in the world, after the Bank Solvency Musical Chairs Game is over. Better than FDIC. You won't make much of a return on it, but think of it as a cash park backed by 6,000 nuclear weapons. If US Treasury Bills go down, the only thing that will be worth anything will be guns and bullets.

[kelligesq]

153. Get out of stocks. Immediately.Buy Gold Coins even at $1000 - it's going to $2000 AND

DONT put it in your safety deposit box. Patriot Act says if the banks fail you will be accompanied to your bank safety deposit box by a Guardsman who will allow you to take out your documents, but WILL CONFISCATE ANY REAL GOLD AND SILVER.

If you cant afford gold coins, buy silver coins, anything before 1994 when it had real silver in it. I buy from a California firm. reputable with $2000 minimum to buy. Careful. There are lots of unreputable out there. They receive my wired money and Fed EX to me the same day.CNI. Non commissioned salesman told me this past summer they expected silver which was at $13.00 to go up to $26.00 in two years.

Guess what? 6 months later silver is at $20.67
Economic failure kind of expedited dont you think?

and the way things are going looks like Silver will be at $26 before 4 or 5 months pass.

I figure if there's total collapse of the dollar I'll at least have a few gold and silver coins the gas station or grocery store will take.

Do some research on the internet before buying anything - but the last thing I'd do is buy paper stock gold, or paper stock anything.

[Gonnuts]

165. Reality doesn't care about what you want ...

Leaving this world a better place was all fine and well a generation or two ago but we flushed that down the toilet now. There is no "making it better".

I hate saying this but it's not something that hasn't been said by many people for many years, but we've screwed the pooch, crossed the Rubicon, and ripped right past fail-safe. There is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. You see it's just basic physics. There is no way this planet, even in the best of times, could sustain a descent quality of life for more than 2 billion people, we currently have approximately 6 plus billion. Add the fact that resources are rapidly dwindling along with habitable land, pollution, climate change, massive species extinction and you have a recipe for disaster of Biblical proportions.

All that is left to us now is to prepare for the inevitable. We must distance ourselves from cities and major highways and hope that we are overlooked by foreign troops or Blackwater. Resistance may be futile, but collaboration would be treason. Chose this day who you will serve.

[CubicleGuy]

200. Here's the ridiculous part:

This is all about perception.

This is the same planet it was yesterday, and will be 10 years from now, with the same amount of natural resources.

The only thing that is different is that everybody is going to insist on playing by the same rules that we always have, and it will cause an endless amount of suffering. All we have to do is realize that we're all in this together, that there is more than enough of everything to take care of everyone, if everybody will just give up the banker mentality that is based on making sure that those who are judged to be unworthy don't get anything that they don't deserve. We need to give up on deciding on just when our fellow man has "earned" something and quit hoarding our substance.

Yeah, I know: it's a bit too "utopian" and will never work. Well, it's the only thing that will work, but our basic selfishness won't allow us to go there.

[SlowDownFast]

144. I didn't see any bitching.

I only see a little bitch jumping on a fellow DU'r for no good reason.

[AngryOldDem]

116. No snarky reply here, because, really, everybody is in the same sinking boat.

Unless, of course, you are Bill Gates or some other uber-rich.

I would just make sure that I am doing all I can to make the most of my investments. Although right now probably nothing is performing spectacularly, if certain funds are nonperforming I would switch them out to maximize the least bit of profit you can. If you have a financial planner/adviser, I'd get with that person ASAP and ask him or her what you're asking of us. I just did that and I'm hoping to see a little improvement soon. But with current events, especially those of this past week, I'm not holding my breath.

Again, ALL of this shows the importance of a healthy middle class to sustain societal balance. You can't have it top-heavy and bottom-heavy and expect the structure to stand.

A lot of us here feel your pain, and are rowing right along with you as we sit on this leaking vessel.

[kineneb]

182. gold and booze, according to Max Keiser

listened to latest Karmabanque Radio podcast...Max says it is already too late to save most investments...

program #901-

http://www.karmabanqueradio.com/

[Doctor_J]

80. GOP - We put the Great in Great Depression

[Gonnuts]

81. We're about to find out what "pay-back is a bitch" ...

really means.

Don't think for a moment this collapse of our economy wasn't planned. What this is part of is the great plan to destroy the world economy to re-invent it with a one-world economy. The next few years are going to be of the likes never before seen. Things will change so fast and hard that before there can be any reaction from the public it will be too late. It may already be too late. There will be massive food riots, Marshall Law, detention camps, a rein of Draconian measures leading to a Police State where the new economy in the form of the AMERO merging our currency with Canada and Mexico, forming the North American Union, where we can basically kiss our sovereignty good-bye. All the plans for this are in place. The directives bush has signed, the detention camps KB&R have built, our lose of Habeas Corpus, the lawlessness of our government makes this all inevitable.

Before the election (if we even have one) we're going to be deep in a massive depression of the likes that will make the Great Depression look tame. There are several things that could happen to accelerate this disaster, if Obama should be assassinated, another "false flag" attack, but the collapse of the economy might be enough in of itself to cause the end of this country forever as we have known it.

bush, the neo-cons, and the elites have been planning this for a long time. They HATE democracy. the last thing in the world they want is for the masses to run things. It has been their grand plan for many years to bring down every democratic government in the world and replace it with a One-World Government with them as the leaders. h. w. bush's New World Order that he talked about is exactly what we are seeing coming to fruition. It's working. It's here.

If we The People want to stop it we should have done so by holding these criminals accountable for the crimes they have already committed. But because we allowed our entire government to be infiltrated by self-serving cowards and sociopaths on every level we became part of our own destruction. We have no one else to blame but ourselves.

[Yael]

141. I am not one for conspiracy theories

and I do not disagree with a single thing you have said.

Naomi Klein's book, Shock Doctrine should be required reading for every individual on this planet.

[Ghost Dog]

82. See this video:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x36234

[Connonym]

91. Why does the expression "No shit, Sherlock" come to mind?

[mainer]

92. Privatizing Social Security sounds like a really good idea now!

Funny how the GOP's not talking about that anymore.

[Hannah Bell]

232. My prediction: they will be if the economy gets worse. n/t

Change in SS are in the platforms of all the candidates. trojan horses.

[BearSquirrel2]

99. Bitter proof ...

There are two great competing theories about the causes of the great depression and the subsequent emergence.

Well, that is supply siders like to think that protectionism caused the great depression after a normal market swing. Then they contend that it wasn't government relief programs that brought us out, rather it was the war which forced the government to spend. Yes, I realize this is self contradictory.

So these boneheads have been laboring forever under the notion that anything that impeges in any way on capital activity will cause market downturns. They rail against progressive taxation. They excoriate social services network. They fume against taxing people on their gains from capital investment.

They make false allusions to Kennedy tax cuts when really these were tradeoffs between deductions and ridiculously high tax brackets (90%). There predictions never come true. They predicted we would fall into a recession in the 90s after the Clinton tax adjustments, no such thing happened. The opposite happened.

The problem with the truth, demand side economics, is that we have never been able to conclusively prove the issue with disparities in distribution of wealth. We contend that demand drives the economy. And once consumers cannot afford the things they manufacture, there will be no point for investors to put their capital at risk. Implicitly the supply siders understand this when they do market surveys on consumer's willingness and ability to pay for products at certain price points. Somehow though, they never put 2 and 2 together to realize that if the consumer can't afford anything, no one will want to produce anything and you get a vicious circle into a prolonged economic collapse.

It would be a biter victory for Keynsian economics to take their proof from another depression. I do wonder what the political ramifications would be this time. With our supply chains now reaching deeply into China, would politicians be bullied into maintain those links for fear of cutting the US of from critical goods? Or, would politicians be brave enough to cut the poison cord and enact bold initiatives to restart the economy based on American self sufficiency and progressive taxation policies? I fear that only Diebold can decide.

[Bonhomme Richard]

102. The bottom line is that the consumer is not going to be able......

o rescue the economy this time. That well is bone dry.

[bluesmail]

115. THEY'RE in shock??

Good lord, where are their priorities?

[kestrel91316]

118. Well, that would certainly be the penultimate Mission Accomplished (TM)

for our Caligula, now wouldn't it?

He's certainly playing the Nero right now, fiddling while Rome burns.........

[Gman]

124. We have a meeting with our guy at Fidelity next week...

I'm calling him in the morning to meet asap. We set the meeting last Thursday, before the Bear Stearns fiasco. My gut was to meet with him last Friday but I put it off until next week. Then I found out about Bear Stearns. I'm not waiting until next week. Tomorrow is not soon enough now. Everything's going to go into metals and/or commodities of some tangible and sustainable value and foreign currency. I want everything out of the US stock market and out of US dollars.

It's real bad now and going to get much, much worse and I'm not losing everything because of the incompetency but greed of the US government.

[greyghost]

149. Better a little late then never, sound moves.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

150. Chimptastic!

[MrBlueSky]

155. Hmmm....

Somehow, I think this may be Bill Clinton's fault.

At least, that's how McLame (and his corporate media allies) will probably portray it....

[Mark D.]

156. THIS IS VERY SIMPLE

Watch "Zeitgeist The Movie Part 3" to learn this firsthand. This is documented history, not theory or whimsy. The market slump that allowed the Federal Reserve to get forced on us was partially initiated by Morgan. The Great Depression that followed was largely initiated by Morgan. The biggest cause for the current economic collapse is the mortgage crisis. The biggest cause for the mortgage crisis was hedge fund escapades. The biggest hedge fund in America is JP Morgan. Now they are 'helping' Wall Street. The Federal Reserve, part of the banker system that controls money supply and tightens it to CAUSE slumps after it opened it up to get it going (ie. allow for frivolous adjustable rate loans) says it is trying to save the dollar it clearly wants to see diminish until 'an emergency' merging with Canadian/Mexican currency 'saves' it (creating the Amero).

I can't say it enough, expecting Morgan to 'fix' what's wrong in the markets, and the Fed to 'fix' the dollar is like sending Godzilla to fix power lines. There is no better analogy for this. Bankers are behind ever economic downturn & major war we've been in. Every president who died in office by an assassin's bullet was killed by an assassin linked to or admitting ties to bankers. Why? Every one of those presidents assassinated stood up against the central bank. This isn't 'tinfoil hat'. Watch 'Zeitgeist Part 3' 'The Money Masters' and 'Endgame' on Google Video (not YouTube, it breaks them into parts). As Henry Ford once said, if America knew how the monetary system in America really worked and how it ran things, there would be a major revolution. But the corporations the monied control, they control our media. So too few will ever learn about the basic cause of this.

[kelligesq]

178. Why should American tax dollars be saving those who starrted this crash? Banks. Lenders, Wall St.?

[HockeyMom]

168. My Grandparents in the Depression

My Grandfather invested heavily in the stock market and when it crashed it left him penniless. My Grandma, old school, didn't trust banks, let alone the stock market. For years she hid cash, gold coins, and her jewels in tin boxes under the floor boards. Without her stash they would have been begging on the streets.

When she died in the mid 1960s, I told my Mom to forget about her bank accounts and just look around her apartment for her stash. Yes, we found hidden booty all around her apartment.

[DuaneBidoux]

169. Great Depression was a financial markets creation as is this crisis. All the others have been....

consumer or business pullback recessions. In this regard we must carefully watch. Financial markets have always been like a house of cards: one failure begets another and then the whole edifice can collapse.

[INdemo]

170. Certainly the economy is bad and has been for several years now

and we have been lied to for several years about the economic numbers to try and keep GB's approval rating from dropping even more..Now with that said I believe the media will give the public the worst of news now because all of a sudden the Republicans will use this issue to try and keep White House...All we will hear is "the Democrats want to raise taxes and increase spending" Repukes cannot win on the war issue so they will have to try and brainwash the public on the fact that they will be the best at bringing us through this economic crisis...That's just the way they operate and their propaganda will win over a few...

[Bluebear]

173. Chimperiffic!

[bushmeister0]

174. Just wait until the Chinese, the Japanese and the Saudis call in their debts!

Then what? The value of our economy is based on the all mighty dollar, which is legal tender "for all debts public, and private." Well, there aren't enough dollars around to pay off that public debt. Save up on those $500 bills, you may need them for a cup of coffee at Starbucks,

[goforit]

199. The US won't pay a dime to anybody.

[Phoonzang]

177. So what's Australia and New Zealand's economy

going to be like after the crash? I may start thinking about a change of scenery.

[muriel_volestrangler]

185. Australia has a lot of mineral resources

though they only produce about 2/3rds of the oil they consume. National government debt as %age of GDP is considerably lower than USA, UK, France or Germany. They may be places to ride this a lot better than many.

[someone else]

183. I'm depressed already

Not too many years ago, my 401K was sacked and now I've lost all my equity in my house and can't afford to buy gas......... pretty sure I'll not recover in time for retirement 10 years from now. Yup, the economy isn't as bad as it seems. BS!

[NBachers]

186. Republican Recession

or Depression. We've got to get this term into the public lexicon.

My dad was a July 5th baby. He was 16 when the stock market came crashing down in 1929. He came into his adulthood during those bleak and uncertain times. He went on to raise 5 kids, dogs, cats, and Gramma in a beautiful house in a fine, accepting community. But his experiences in those gloomy days left a shadow over his life. He was always afraid that it was going to come back.

Dad took his own life during the darkest days of the Nixon Administration. Among my mother's words when we all came back home: "I know he was very concerned about the future of the United States of America."

I'm worried that it really is coming back this time. There aren't enough resources to cover a run on all the vapor "assets." It can all implode in the space of a day or two. And we'll drag the rest of the world down with us.

This mess has been created by the insane war and economic policies of the Bush Administration and their Republican co-conspirators. They are desperately trying to play out the clock until the Democrats take over in 2009. DO NOT let them off the hook.

Republican Recession. Republican Depression.

[mrmx9]

187. Morgan Stanley has just bought Bear Stearns tonight for only 2 dollars a share!

Bear Stearns shares were worth 60 dollars last week!

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/banking/2008-03-16-jpmorgan-bearsterns_N.htm

[burf]

193. And over 140 a year ago. n/t

[bonito]

204. Just a hug

:hug:

[Xipe Totec]

191. In the home of greatest power The village idiot will come forth To be acclaimed the leader n/t

[burf]

192. If you can get CNBC Asian

you might want to take a look see. They reported the dollar now at a new record low against the euro. Gold up $28 an ounce. Fed did a quarter point cut. Its gonna get ugly.

[Oslo]

198. Frightening! wish Keith will cover this n/t

[sueragingroz]

202. He's too busy being all over Hillary ;)

[sueragingroz]

201. Strong economy shields Canada as U.S. sags-Carney

http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN1522570020080315

Whew! I'm planning on moving back there later this year...

So those of you who plan on leaving the country if your nominee doesn't win might want to consider Canada. Seems like a safe bet... if you like bone cracking cold and mosquitos that is :)

[gulfcoastliberal]

208. Dollar Slumps Below 96 Yen to 12-Year Low on Subprime Losses ($ has "credibility crisis")

March 17 (Bloomberg) -- The dollar slumped below 96 yen for the first time in 12 years after the Federal Reserve cut its discount interest rate and financed the bailout of Bear Stearns Cos. by JPMorgan Chase & Co.

The dollar also dropped to a record low against the euro and the Swiss franc as the Fed lowered the rate it charges commercial banks for loans by a quarter percentage point to 3.25 percent to ensure ``orderly market functioning.'' Traders increased bets the Fed will slash its benchmark target rate by 1 percentage point tomorrow, making fixed-income securities issued by the U.S. government less appealing to global investors.

``The dollar is facing a credibility crisis,'' said Koji Fukaya, a senior currency strategist at Deutsche Securities, the Tokyo unit of Deutsche Bank AG, the world's largest currency trader. ``All the markets are entering a vicious cycle.''

The dollar fell to as low as 95.76 yen, the weakest since Aug. 15, 1995, before trading at 95.97 yen at 11:29 a.m. in Tokyo from 99.09 yen late in New York on March 14. Against the euro, the dollar declined to $1.5903, the weakest since the creation of the single European currency in 1999. It slid to an all-time low of 0.9754 Swiss francs. The dollar may fall to 95 yen this week, Fukaya said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agOQfsyBq3dc&refer=home

[KalicoKitty]

209. Bush is reminiscent to Herbert Hoover

"We're in the most serious economic problem we've been in in a very long time, much worse than 2001 – the President's hands-off attitude is reminiscent of Herbert Hoover in 1929, in 1930." - Senator Charles Schumer

[young_at_heart]

212. Bush hasn't had good reviews for his business acumen

George W. Bush's businesses have all failed but he makes millions. As he did to his unsuccessful businesses, George W. Bush is doing to the country...leading it down a path of failure.

[redqueen]

224. Almost time for the shearing.

Suckers.

[Vidar]

227. I live in Michigan. The Depression is already here. We have

everything but the Dustbowl--too much snow here for that.

[slackmaster]

231. I've seen nice looking houses in Detroit listed for under $10,000

But that's not really a bargain if you have to cough up $6,000 per month in property tax, another $6,000 per month in insurance because the crime is so bad, and there aren't any jobs.

[Tight_rope]

233. I hope this brings tuition down...Only thing left to do is go to school