Ruling: "Speak English" sign at cheesesteak shop not discriminatory

[onehandle]

Source: Philadelphia Enquirer

A city agency yesterday dismissed a discrimination complaint against Geno's Steaks for its speak-English sign, halting a case that thrust shop owner Joey Vento into the national spotlight of the contentious immigration debate.

A split three-member panel of the Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations ruled that a sign in the South Philadelphia cheesesteak shop did not convey a message that service would be refused to non-English speakers.

"The bottom line is that I didn't do anything wrong," said Vento, 68, who maintained that the sign was a political statement and that no customers were ever turned away. "It's a good victory."

Had the commission ruled against Geno's, it could have imposed fines and have moved to revoke Vento's business license.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/philadelphia/20080320_Ruling___quot_Speak_English_quot__sign_at_cheesesteak_shop_not_discriminatory.html

[Hugabear]

1. I hope they take this to court

I don't see how this could not be construed as discrimination against non-English speakers.

[bean fidhleir]

3. "non-English speakers" isn't a protected class (nt)

[Hugabear]

9. No, but nationality is

This, and other "English only" rules, seems to be targeted at Hispanics, Asians, or anyone else of a foreign nationality.

If I go to another country and don't speak the language, I can still usually figure out how to order something. I wouldn't expect to be refused service because I was speaking my native language amongst my friends or family.

[bean fidhleir]

23. I'm sure you're right about his target. But it's not useful to know or even show that, since

he can counter that most people of any nationality speak English in the US. This is the "melting pot", after all. :) As long as he doesn't refuse to serve English-speaking Swiss (e.g.), he's laughing.

[brooklynite]

39. And they won't refuse service to you

(Store owner) Vento has said he never refused service to anyone because they couldn't speak English.

I don't this this is a case to get worked up about

[np33]

85. But you can't expect

them to be speaking your language in a foreign country either.

[Mike Daniels]

11. Does the sign say "no English, no service"? No, it doesn't

If I recall correctly it ultimately says "Please order in English".

Granted, Joe's a jerk and one could argue that the sign implies "no English, no service" but unless there's a case where someone was actually turned away because they chose not to or weren't able to order in English I think the city board has it right.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. The attached article shows the sign - there's no "please" on it.

Which just makes him doubly an asshole - but still does not discriminate.

As long as no one was turned away.

But I did have to laugh at all those good American names: Geno, Vento, Centeno, Barletta - how many of them had grandmothers who didn't speak English?

[hyphenate]

37. Ah, but their grandmothers

knew they needed to speak English when they got here and most of them learned it. Difference between someone who learns a language because they need to, and someone who refuses to learn.

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. And how do you know they are refusing to learn?

Just because they don't speak it right now?

Learning a foreign language is difficult even with formal lessons - if you're working full time and supporting a family you don't have time or opportunity or maybe even the income to take classes, and have to learn as you go.

My own grandmother and her sister spoke german around the house after they'd been in this country for 50 years. They did eventurally learn english, but it it took a while. It can take years, literally, to become comfortable speaking it. Are they supposed to never leave the house until they are fluent?

[murielm99]

59. Many in my family still speak German.

My father grew up speaking German and English at home. Some of his brothers and sisters married people in the community who also spoke German at home. Quite a few of my cousins speak German. My mother is a Swede, so I did not learn the language as a child.

Some of the older relatives, people I barely remember, had a very hard time learning English. Some of them had little incentive, because German was so common in their farming community. But they all wanted their children to speak English.

This is common in immigrant communities. I once taught basic English and reading as a literacy volunteer. Many of my students were Vietnamese or Korean. The older people had a very hard time. They were content with basic language survival skills.

Haven't any of you ever spent any time around immigrant communities? Americans can be so ignorant. Growing up bilingual is a gift. I wish I had it!

[LanternWaste]

49. Who do we know of that has refused to learn English

Who do we know of that has refused to learn English (hillbillys and rednecks aside...)?

Also, I'm under the impression that it takes three generations for a family to become fully ingrained in a new culture and language.

[treestar]

99. Exactly, it is total BS. All immigrants learn English. So what is

wrong with being bi-lingual? Apparently the ignorant will not have it that someone else be more worldly than they.

Typical of the right wing to create a straw man. They talk as if there is some group out there insisting that some other language become the standard. Then they scare themselves with their own bogeyman, because they fear they could never learn a second language.

One thing I don't understand yet is why the right wing feels threatened. If I hear two people speaking a language I don't understand, sitting at a table in a restaurant near mine, it doesn't bother me. I can't conceive of why it would bother anyone.

[Gormy Cuss]

82. Actually, many of those grandmothers never did learn English.

They lived in ethnic enclaves like South Philly surrounded by others who spoke Italian and they shopped in the neighborhood at merchants who were also from the old country. They rarely left the area.

Many of the grandfathers learned only enough English to get by.

It was the American-born generation that adopted the language.

[zanne]

94. My MIL never learned to speak English...

She immigrated here from Quebec when she was 16 and settled into a little town with other French Canadians. She worked at a French-speaking mill, she went to a French-speaking church and socialized with her French-speaking neighbors and family. She died about eight years ago at the age of 84, still unable to speak English.

[slampoet]

115. So is a Hispanic Dislexic someone who Refuses to learn?

Or is a philly steak joint owner who won't adapt to his changing clientèle the person who refuses to learn?

[BumRushDaShow]

12. Paper name is "Inquirer" (with an "I")! LOL

This has been a big issue here the past year or so. The sentiment here in the city among residents appears to be split... But it seems that he is being given a pass because of the technicality that he is not refusing to serve anyone (and apparently has not in the past), and thus the sign is reduced to being a provocative 1st amendment thing. If there had been evidence that he refused to serve someone, then it would have been a whole other issue.

I personally don't agree with this in-your-face crap from someone barely off the boat himself (particularly as someone whose family has been here many generations), but it just seems sad that some want their 15 minutes in the spotlight so bad that they are willing to do this sort of thing and of course this is free advertising for his business.

EDIT: PIB, didn't mean to reply to your post but to the OP!

[MaryCeleste]

22. I do to, to recover legal fees for Vento

There was no grounds, and to compare it to "whites only" signs is hyperbole at best.

The problem is every time resources are spent and headlines grabbed by this kind of nonsense, every real case gets devalued and weakened. Work the real ones, not fakes like this one.

[slackmaster]

36. Since no customers were turned away for not speaking English...

...Who would have standing to sue, and for what?

[tidy_bowl]

51. Not everything is a lawsuit.....

....as a small businessman myself I wouldn't have a similar sign in my business because I want the money :) This is a classic case of letting the free market decide. Those that don't wish to speak English don't patronize his shop. He is only hurting himself IMHO in the long run.

[Red Zelda]

2. I'll bet speaking Italian would be OK

hypocrites

[lazyriver]

4. I bet you're exactly right.

[mac56]

10. Exactly what I was thinking.

As others have pointed out, it may indeed be 100% legal for the shop owner to do this. Whatever. It still smacks of xenophobia and douchebaggery.

[Ellen Forradalom]

18. Attuned minds think alike.

If in Philly, I'll stop by and speak French to them.

[DiverDave]

5. So, to own a business

you need to hire translators?

Look, I'm all for diversity, but this is getting ridicules.

[Demeter]

6. It's Rude and Arrogant, But That's Not Illegal--It's GOP Standard Operating Procedure

[slampoet]

40. "but this is getting ridicules."

"ridiculous" is the word you are looking for.





Apparently "Speak English" is done on a grading curve.

[DiverDave]

55. Sorry...should have spell checked

you can shove you snide tone up your ass.

[slampoet]

57. Wow an English major.

What was your first language?



BTW - Spell check wouldn't have got that you'd need to know how to EDIT English to catch that. I know, it's a dying art like tolerance or being able to take a weekend to write down and/or learn "How can i help you" in french, portugese, german, spanish and since it is philly, italian. Health care businesses have these cue cards in catalogs.

[DiverDave]

65. Oops, I got it now

you're a snooty asshole, so do you correct people to their face?

I suspect not, as you may get a responce you wouldnt like...bye, I wont be seeing you again.
Unless, that is, you act like that in front of me.

[slampoet]

109. I only correct monolinguals. You know the people that force others to learn their language?

When they are only just barely able to speak or in your case write their own language.


Anyone WHO SAYS "SPEAK ENGLISH" to others, ought to be prepared to speak well in their own tongue.


As for you i know Russian immigrants who wrote better English than you BEFORE Gorbachev.





BTW - the word is spelled "response."

[Skittles]

143. "wouldn't have got"

n i c e

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. No, but if you have a lot of customers of one nationality, you'll

hire someone who speaks their language. That's good business.

[treestar]

103. No, but you can be tolerant of ESL speakers

This guy is trying to make his xenophobic point.

[moose65]

7. I don't know about this...

In some of the accounts I've read, Vento comes across as arrogant and xenophobic, while in others he's just an old curmudgeon. Do you folks think that "Please order in English" is discriminatory if he just wanted to move the line along as quickly as possible? Most immigrants and visitors to the US know enough English to order a sandwich, I would imagine.

[Ms. Toad]

104. The sign wasn't "please order in English"

It was: "This is America"
"When ordering please 'speak English'"

Ignoring the fact that the author of the sign doesn't understand understand the punctuation rules of the language in which s/he is requesting orders be placed, the intent of the sign is clear.

[Ordr]

8. Private business.

100% legal.

[High Plains]

69. Good thing he doesn't want to allow smoking or something.

[Demit]

13. The sign had to be meant as a shout-out to his fellow xenophobes. People who don't speak English

probably can't read it either. Vento is just an asshole—and I grew up in a city full of em.

[mac56]

15. Very good point.

If someone can't speak English, why would they be able to read English?

Answer: they wouldn't. This sign isn't for them - it's for the shop owner's fellow douchebags.

[treestar]

97. Speaking a language could be harder than reading it

There might be many people in the process of learning English who could read and understand that sign while they might not be able to converse comfortably in English.

If he wants to refuse to serve anyone just because they don't speak enough English yet to please him, it's his loss of custom.

[jmowreader]

110. I think it IS harder than reading it

I can read German fairly well, can write some, can barely speak it.

[slampoet]

126. Same here. I can barely read in 5-6 languages, but i can only speak English and just

enough Spanish to get by and maybe I remember all the vegetables in Cape Verdeian Portuguese.

[Orsino]

14. By definition, it's discriminatory.

But perhaps not illegally so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Yes. The antonym of discriminate is indiscriminate.

I've been in lots of establishments in which is posted "we reserve the right to refuse service".

If you don't like a merchant's business practices, perhaps it's best to give your money to someone else.

[Xenotime]

106. It's still illegal, wrong and outright racist.

[gtar100]

16. Another right-wing stretching of reason

If I saw a sign that says, "Speak English" or even "Please order in English", tolerance of difference is not what comes to mind. Understanding of diversity doesn't even register. Seeing somebody with a chip on their shoulder, now *that* I can see.

[mac56]

17. A chip on their shoulder

and a stick up their ass.

[Centered]

19. When I was in Finland

I learned how to count to 10 in Finnish. I would go to "Hess-Burger" (a Fast Food Chain) and I would "amaze" my co-workers because I would order a "number 1,2 or 3" with a "coke" and pay while they struggled pointing to the menus trying to order lunch.

I am certain that it was possible the young person taking my order might know english but I decided that while I was in Finland I would assimilate.

I did not go to places that I wasn't certain I could communicate. I believe anyone who does not know english would do the same and spend their money in businesses that they felt comfortable communicating.

The Golden Rule while I was abroad wasn't "will someone speak english..." it was... "will someone speak english... to you"

It makes good business sense to be as open to customers as possible but if they don't want a piece of the pie (or it is too difficult to find high school kids that speak mulitple languages) someone else will take the profits from the additional customers.

[izquierdista]

26. An Arab goes into a Greek restaurant in Wroclaw, Poland...

What language do you think the customer and the order taker speak?

(Hint: most commonly used language of travel around the world; the second language (if there is a second one) on all traffic and warning signs besides the local idiom.)

[Centered]

27. hmmm

well Chinese is spoken by the most people ;)

[izquierdista]

29. It won't be at the Olympics

Not if they want anyone else to understand them.

[Centered]

70. might have a misunderstanding

I said:
"It makes good business sense to be as open to customers as possible but if they don't want a piece of the pie (or it is too difficult to find high school kids that speak mulitple languages) someone else will take the profits from the additional customers."

which should be intrepreted as if they don't want the business someone else will take it and get rich!! Let's face it how difficult would it really be to hire a HS student who is bilingual? But if they don't want to sell their goods/services to as many people as possible then their business will simply fade away as time goes by.

I think we may both be saying the same thing just in different ways.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

47. Chinese is first, Spanish is second in no. of people who speak it.

English is third.

I wish all of us in the Southwest were bilingual in English/Spanish. We had Spanish classes in intermediate school, taught by native speakers, but we didn't get immersion classes.

Recently I heard two different people from widely differing social classes and backgrounds say about immigrants "None of 'em want to learn English". I wanted to say "Really, did you poll all 14 million of those illegal immigrants, in Spanish, or Chinese, or whatever their native language is?".

"None of 'em wants to learn English" must be some right wing radio gasbag's phrase.

[Centered]

67. Most Certainly Agree

I would love to see the day where my EU friends could stop pointing out that the average European speaks at least 2 languages while US citizens only speak 1.

My daughter already knows English and Spanish so she can communicate with both sides of the family.

[LanternWaste]

50. When I lived in Mexico

When I lived in Mexico, I was trying to learn the language, but almost every conversation I was engaged in devolved into English-- not so I could understand them, but so they could understand me.

The Golden Rule when I was abroad was speak in a way that you can be best understood in...

[Centered]

68. Good For you!!

Yes if the conversation moves into English afterwards that's great!! At least you made the effort and as I said it's up to both parties to decide on the best way to communicate.

My Golden Rule story was to illustrate that people shouldn't "expect" someone else to know English when they travel. It goes back to when I first started travelling and I met a person (who is now a very good friend) He asked me where I was from. I told him I was from America. He then replied "Oh really? North? South? or Central?" The US isn't the only Country on this continent but it seems that we certainly feel as if we are.

[joeybee12]

20. You know, if he had said please speak english, it might have not

been an issue...he could have argued that none of his employees spoke anything but english...yeah, he could have argued that and i woudln't have believed him that that was his intent.

[Keefer]

52. But it DOES say please.

In yellow print on the Eagle.

[gtar100]

58. "This is America...speak English" - a sign of great ignorance.

Let's see about America - not counting the many native languages - Canada (French, English), United States (English), Mexico (Spanish), Belize (English), Guatemala (Spanish), Honduras (Spanish), El Salvador (Spanish), Nicaragua (Spanish), Costa Rica (Spanish), Panama (Spanish), Colombia (Spanish), Ecuador (Spanish), Venezuela (Spanish), Guyana (English), Suriname (Dutch), French Guiana (French), Brazil (Portuguese), Peru (Spanish), Bolivia (Spanish), Paraguay (Spanish), Uruguay (Spanish), Argentina (Spanish), Chile (Spanish). And that's not counting the Caribbean area which should be considered part of the Americas as well.

Hmmm. Kind of a toss-up. Well Gringo (the man in the picture above), Este es America tambien. Habla Espanol, Por Favor. O No Servicio. Pinche buey.

[RaleighNCDUer]

83. I think you're seeing things.

Cuz I sure don't see it.

[axollot]

92. It's hard to see - but it *is* there in yellow as pointed out. N/T

[Keefer]

96. Here's a better picture.

Here's an even better pic:

[gtar100]

146. Oh gee, that's better. It says 'Please'.

Point #1 is that America is Canada, USA, Mexico, and all the countries of Central and South America. We in the US need to stop living in our manufactured bubble. Is this guy so afraid of the mighty big world that he can't handle multiple languages? I know it's his business and he can do what he wants. What gets me with this whole "This is a America, speak English" thing is that it smells of self-righteous, condescending, and intolerant attitudes that are prevalent in the US. This kind of stuff destroys integrity and rather than making America look strong, it just makes it look like a bully.

[MaryCeleste]

21. self delete

wrong place in thread

[Blue_Tires]

24. surprising ruling

i remember living in Atlanta in the late 90s when the latino population was skyrocketing (with their own shopping centers with spanish signs)...Some genius in the Fulton Co. gov't proposed a law requiring all business front signs to be in english only...

of course, until someone reminded him of all the high-dollar french, italian, japanese restaurants that would not be happy about changing names...

[guitar man]

my friend

My friend is planning to go there and order in Cherokee, that should be quite an exchange :)

[cap]

25. "speak English" can be used as code talk

"speak English" can be used to say don't speak accented English. Aka a slur on foreign born English speakers. It takes a long time to lose an accent... many people never do.

Geno's is in the old Italian Market which is now going Hispanic. Lots of Hispanic businesses in the area and lots of Hispanics moving in.

[treestar]

98. Exactly, how much proficiency does he require?

When speaking a second language, it's not an issue of black or white, it's a process! That shows he is probably so ignorant he has never even attempted a second language.

[uppityperson]

28. Freedom of speech can be obnoxious, but taken in conjunction with other sign "we reseve the right to

refuse service", could give them leeway to do whatever they want. Just as signs, obnoxious. If they did use it to discriminate, or people felt they did, then that is another story. I agree, it is obnoxious and would not give them money but words.

"It's a good victory" statement tells me he did it to be discriminatory, not because he didn't speak anything but English. Asshole.

[Zavulon]

30. His business, his call, his loss.

I think the ruling is correct, I also think the guy's an idiot. In his place I'd be far more concerned with making money than I would with a failed attempt at social change.

Nevertheless, it's his store and he isn't breaking the law. If he wants to piss off customers and piss away money, let him. I'm sure he'll make a dent in the bigot market to make up for some of it.

[Mike Daniels]

44. For a time, the Philly tour guides would direct people to Joe's competitors

My wife and I would staying in Philadelphia for a few days shortly after this whole thing started.

While we were on a tour of the colonial area on the topic of Joe and his sign came up. The guide said that the tourism/historic quarter had a "unoffical" boycott going where unless they were asked directly about Joe's place they would send people to his competitors.

That was a few years back so I don't know if they still have it place but it was a nice idea.

[Zorra]

31. After traveling extensively throughout the southwest, I believe that

the enormous number of people in this country that cannot speak, read or write English, or do so very poorly, grossly inhibit our economic efficiency as well as the efficiency of our school systems.

Even when people from another culture have a fair grasp of the language, they don't always comprehend the cultural nuances implied in the meaning of many words, leading to frequent misunderstandings in the workplace that bog down day to day operations, often resulting in lower quality of product, poor customer service, and ultimately bottom line losses.

With respect to schools, it is very difficult for teachers to proceed with lesson plans at a reasonable pace because many of their students don't understand the language and culture very well. This results in students that do understand the language and culture often having the pace and quality of their education stunted, or teachers having to proceed with lesson plans in a fixed time period leaving most students that speak English poorly with little or no benefit from their educational experience.

If we extrapolate on these problems, the negative ramifications on society are many.

IMO, this is a very serious issue, and one that is contributing to the "dumbing down" of our society in a big way that most people don't realize.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. Why not?

It's his right, as an American, to be an asshole.

[KamaAina]

34. Doesn't Pa. have a primary coming up?

Made-to-order photo op for either or both candidates: Go to Geno's, very publicly thumb your nose at them over the sign, then high-tail it across the street to Pat's, or better still, to one of several other similar nearby establishments preferred by Philadelphians. Oh yes, DO NOT attempt to order yours with Swiss! :-)

[hyphenate]

35. Having worked in an industry where

communications was crucial, I had a difficult time trying to deal with people who could not speak at least basic English. It was very frustrating as well, made trying to communicate almost impossible. At another position, I worked as a safety monitor and I often wondered how the non-speaking personnel would be able to understand what was going on if they couldn't speak English.

If this guy had a very popular restaurant, I can see the difficulty there would be if someone couldn't speak English in ordering their food. He could conceivably lose a lot of business at lunchtime when many people don't have the time to wait while one of the servers is trying to take an order from someone who can't convey what they want quickly. He would also likely have more customers angry and leaving when they were faced with such delays.

A friend's mother came from Germany when she married right after WWII. She didn't speak a whole lot of English when she came here, but learned quickly. And most other immigrants who came to the U.S. learned how to speak English as well because it was necessary.

I don't care what language someone uses in their homes, around their families or in any other such situations, but I believe it is absolutely necessary to speak enough English to get by if it is a business matter. Whether that is as a customer, a business owner or someone else in practical positions, it shouldn't matter. I find it off-putting to see some people refusing to speak English and refusing to learn enough of it to function. Having an interpreter at all businesses is impossible, and customers should realize this.

Having a sign that requests English to order is not discriminatory to me. It means he doesn't have the time to try and figure out what someone is trying to order if there is a line of people impatiently waiting to get in, order and get out. Perhaps he said it in blunt terms, but if that's his only crime, I think the proper decision was made.

Now again, this is without knowledge of the area of the city in which his business was. If he were in the middle of Chinatown or its equivalent, or perhaps an area with a large Hispanic population or some other racially complex area, he would do best to employ at least one person who could handle customers speaking another language. You don't want to alienate the population which is surrounding you, and that's different than being in a diverse section of the city. If he's dealing with large companies and their employees, non-English speaking customers should at least have an idea of what they want before they go in to order, and make it just as quick and easy for those who can speak English.

[mac56]

61. "he doesn't have the time to try and figure out...

"...what someone is trying to order if there is a line of people impatiently waiting to get in, order and get out."

He's just too darn busy to have to use that pesky "respect" thing with his customers? Awwww. I have the perfect solution for that problem. Boycott his sorry xenophobic ass.

He doesn't like our speech? Wait till he gets a load of our indifference.

[Greylyn58]

77. As someone who deals daily with the public,

I thought you stated your case well. It is very frustrating trying to help a customer find what they are looking for because I can't speak their language and they can't speak English.

Where I live, we have seen a large influx of Spanish, Portuguese, Russian and several other languages that I am not familiar with. While the store I work for does have Spanish speaking employees available most of the time, they just don't have every language covered. Seems to me, learning some basic English should be essential just to get by.

Please don't take my comments to mean I'm racist, or xenophobic. I'm speaking purely from a been there done that position. Trying to help someone who wishes to buy a TV, but I can't talk to them about which model they prefer or someone who wants to set up a cellphone contract, but can't communicate what type of service they want. It is very frustrating for them as well as for me.

[treestar]

100. It is interesting, though, while what you say is true

If you go to other countries, people always speak English. Americans are wealthy enough, or have been, to travel abroad. English is spoken the world over to a great degree. So it doesn't seem too much to ask that tourists that come to us get a little bit of a break.

I was in France and don't speak French, no body criticized me for that, in fact, most people I dealt with spoke some English. They knew tourists were of benefit to them and even went that far to accomodate them. Waiters spoke at least enough English to allow for waiting on someone who didn't speak French.

In the Holy Land, there are kids who want to sell things to tourists have enough vocabulary for their purpose in ten different languages!

For world good will, it would not be too much to ask for us to have a little patience with someone whose English isn't perfect. When we go out into the world, we are accomodated to a much greater degree.

[Megahurtz]

132. A Very Logical Post!

:hi: Is everyone else blind?

[humbled_opinion]

38. Thats Conservative Justice for ya... n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

41. Joey Vento has taken this to the BANK.

His sammiches could be crawling with maggots, and he'd still draw reporters, lawyers, and a crowd.

--p!

[slackmaster]

43. Yes, like the antique dealer in NYC who is accepting payment only in Euros

Lots of free advertising.

[Traction311]

45. I have never ever seen more xenophobia then when I worked in a restaurant

When I hosted in a local IHOP 10 years ago, virtually all the servers used to say "Don't sit me with any immigrants." It didn't matter what kind of immigrants (Russian, Haitian, Albanian, Columbian, etc.) or what color, NONE were wanted. When i asked "why?" thaey would all say the same thing: "They can't tip for shit." It got so bad I couldn't host anymore, because I got tired of getting screamed at by the servers. :(

[kskiska]

79. Then why is it called the INTERNATIONAL House of Pancakes? n/t

[Traction311]

88. Hahaha!

The funny part was the owner was from South Korea and the manager was born in Germany. :) I told my German manager about the anti-immigrant statements from the servers, and to my astoundment, she said something like "You're not a server. When you become one, you won't want any immigrants either. Before I worked in a restaurant, I didn't tip 15% to 20%, because I didn't know any better." I think I quit like the next day. :)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. Loro no parlano Italiano?

I thought they spoke Italian in South Philly, at least they used to.
Mario Lanza was from there.

[LanternWaste]

48. Then I can only surmise...

Then I can only surmise that there's a pretty big gulf between what's 'legally' discriminatory vs. what's morally discriminatory and that Vento's statement, "I didn't do anything wrong" should be amended to "I didn't do anything illegal".

I now know of one little, bigoted, xenophobic eatery that won't ever get my business.

[msanthrope]

53. Only the tourons and drunk frat boys eat the dogmeat at Geno's

Tony Luke's makes the best cheesesteak---heck, even Pat's (across the way from Geno's) is better than the Vento slop....

[MrSlayer]

54. Geno's steaks would still suck regardless of what language you ordered in.

Jim's on South street are the best in Philly. Geno's and Pat's are for the tourists and the late night drunks.

[msanthrope]

121. Jim's are good, but I have to go wid' Tony Lukes.... n/t

[CHIMO]

56. Hmm

Reminds me of 40 some years ago on the island of Montreal. In a certain area the police wanted people to speak "white". Need anyone say more.

[provis99]

60. ironic then, that Quebec is like one big Geno's then, isn't it?

Post French bigger than English on your business, or get jailed by the fascist Quebec government, no?

[KillCapitalism]

62. Just another reason we need "universal" language worldwide.

If we had that, issues like this would go away. Think of how awesome it would be to have no more language barriers if everyone was speaking the same language.

[RaleighNCDUer]

84. Hey, now, none of that.

God gave us 15,000 different languages for a very good reason.

Kind of escapes me at the moment what it was, but I'm sure it was for our own benefit.

[pokercat999]

63. One very stupid business person. If your 1st language was

something other than Americanized English would you want to eat a sandwich made by this clown?

[mmonk]

64. I think people like that should be challenged.

It's nothing more than intimidation to members of the public. Are we really to believe people order their cheesesteaks in Spanish?

[newfie11]

66. Like it or not english is our national language.

Our Constitution is in english, our laws are in english. When someone plans to live their life in another country then learn the language. I spent sometime in Germany last fall. I tried to pick up words while there. It is something I want to learn. Why would someone want to live in a country and not speak the language??

If this man doesn't have the time to try to figure out what someone wants then I feel he has the right to turn them away.
Mt. Rushmore hires foreigners to man their shops in the summer. It is very difficult to order something when they speak very little english. I can overlook that as they are only here for the summer. However I can understand the shop owners frustration.

[struggle4progress]

71. De veras? Nuestra lengua nacional?

[timtom]

75. Not officially.

Just by virtue of custom and habit and history.

Personally, I've tried to learn at least a few phrases in as many languages as I encounter.

Someday I may become proficient in one.

¡Felíz Pascua!

Joyeuses Pâques!

Frohe Ostern!

E ʻôlelo mâlie!

[treestar]

102. Lo que teman estas idiotas

Es que algun dia tan muchos personas hablararon otra lengua, que ellos necessitaran aprender otra lengua, y que no pueden, porque son estupidezes.

[Throd]

127. No, thats not it at all

[kwenu]

138. I think learning another language is a part of a proper education.

But American English is the dominant language of the U.S. and that's not likely to change anytime soon. It is well known that the children of immigrants adopt English as their primary language.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. The United States does not have an official language.

People, including merchants, are free to speak any language they wish.

[mmonk]

93. No. It will probably be soon since we've got rightwing judges.

However, the sign is for intimidation. Are we going to pretend people living, visiting, or working in the US don't know English is the dominate language, they don't notice the menu is in English, they don't notice the people are speaking English? It's pure xenophoboia in an increasingly intolerant bigoted nation.

[treestar]

101. I was in London and most food servers were immigrants

They managed. The shops did not close. Both tourists and the British were patronizing them.

It's not all or nothing.

And did the Germans refuse to deal with you if your German wasn't fluent? I think not.

[Megahurtz]

111. I agree.

[LanternWaste]

128. No one is arguing that the store owner doesn't have the righ to be an ass...

Most of the foods I order are not English in name. Many of the place names, from city streets to cities themselves are not in English. From burrito to spaghetti to San Antonio to Baton Rouge to Michigan, I think we can accept there are many official words which are simply not English.

Seems to me, the more languages we speak, the greater access we have to other customs, foods, life-styles and neighbors.

God forbid a mute wants to oder something in a "Speak English Only" society. God forbid we homogenize our language to the point where all regional charms and dialects are become suspect.

Anyways, I don't think that anyone is saying he doesn't have the right to turn non-English speakers away, only that he's an asshole for doing it.

My biggest gripe with bad/misunderstood English comes much more from those born here rather than those born elsewhere.

And the question I keep coming back to is (outside of anecdotal evidence) where are all these immigrants who "refuse" to speak/learn English that people keep referring to?

From where I sit, xenophobia and laziness are the primary reasons we can't understand immigrants-- too many people who think, "English only is good enough for me".

[depakid]

72. Being an ugly American isn't illegal

though it is embarrassing.

[Octafish]

73. Freedom of Speech doesn't apply when you're not speaking English?

I'll say whatever I want, wherever I want, in whatever language I want.

Those who don't agree with me can go to hell.

[Fountain79]

135. It's Vento's freedom of speech that's being protected...

and while I don't agree with his politics, if he chooses to put that sign up there and face possible economic conseuquences then so be it. You are free to "say whatever I want, wherever I want, in whatever language I want." but people are also free to ignore you, refuse service, and/or tell you to shut up. Freedom is a wonderful thing....

[bamacrat]

74. Just makes sense to use the native language.

Oh I know, I'm racist right? Whatever, I work customer service/support/sales, people need to be able to speak in coherent English if they want to be in this country. Not to say a person can't practice their traditions and cultures, and speak their language, but when they are ordering food or requesting services they should speak English. It sucks trying to comprehend shattered English, broken is ok they know what you are saying more than how to say it back. Anyway what I am saying is people should speak the language of the menu.

[Mountainman]

78. Why in a free country is this ever an issue? Why can't people understand that not everyone

wants to be a white American? Nor should they have to be! You xenophobes drive me nuts. Go back to your 1950's!

[Recursion]

80. Newsflash: being a giant dick is not illegal

There's nothing we can do if this guy wants to run his business that way. Buy your cheesesteaks somewhere else.

[harun]

108. Like across the street at Pat's (I like them a bit better actually) (n/t)

[modrepub]

81. Go to Pat's!

Geez, if you want to make a statement go to Pat's across the street to get your cheese-steak; they're better anyway! Please don't make saints out of a--holes!

[slackmaster]

86. A testimonial! Excellent response.

Thanks for the recommendation.

[Snarkturian Clone]

105. Both suck

Pat's and Geno's are for tourists. People who live here get their steaks elsewhere.

[undercoverbook]

136. lukes is better

Tony Lukes is so much better then pats or genos...Vento's an old man. 68 yrs old, he just wants you to press 1 when ordering...

[kestrel91316]

87. II own a small business and, while I do not and would never consider posting

a sign like this guy's, if you come in here speaking anything other than English to me, you are going to be turned away. I must be able to communicate with my clients adequately for liability reasons and to ensure adequate patient care, and have neither the time nor the inclination to learn the several dozen other commonly-spoken languages in my polyglot community.

If you don't speak English, BRING AN INTERPRETER. Don't expect me to speak your language, whatever the heck it is.........

[fshrink]

91. Guess the Idiot won't be eating there.

[treestar]

95. What possible harm is there in people speaking to each other

in any language? How does it hurt Vento if someone speaks Finnish, Latvian or Chinese or whatever in the shop? He sold two steaks, let the customers speak whatever language they want, how does it hurt him? Even if one of his employees speaks to a customer in another language, as long as the customer and employee understand each other, what is the harm to Vento?

[RebelOne]

107. Having lived in Miami, FL, until 1989, I remember that Spanish

became the dominant language. I would become upset when in most stores in the Hialeah-Miami Springs area, the sales clerks or cashiers would not speak to me in English. So, I'm on Joey Vento's side. 'Nuff said.

[Megahurtz]

112. The Whining On This Thread Is Stupid.

If I'm working at a window at a restaurant and I can't understand what the fuck a person is saying because I only speak American English, how can I possibly serve them? :shrug::think: Duh!

Has anyone on this thread heard of COMMON SENSE???
So do people think that the restaurant owner should be required to learn every other language on Earth? :wtf:

No, the restaurant owner did not do anything wrong. If ya don't like the way he runs the place, go somewhere else!

If people want to live here in the U.S. then they should stop being lazy and make an effort to learn to speak and write the language on a regular basis.:think: Duh!
This is one time "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" applies.

:eyes: Holy Crap quitcher' whining. :nopity:

[slampoet]

113. The entire Health Care industry has CUE CARDS with phrases on them.....

....why not the food industry?


All you need to do is have seven phrases for each language printed and the rest is just point at what you want.
It is so silly that most business owners seem to think that if you can't speak English that you can't read or write in ANY language. This just isn't the case.


As for Spanish, I know enough to order in Spanish because it is the Dominant Language of the Food Industry.
If you don't know enough Spanish to order you really aren't doing as the Romans do. You are only speaking the language of the front house not the language of the kitchen. In fact i am currently working in the only kitchen in my life where there isn't a person who was born speaking Spanish yet there are 3 Spanish speakers (1 fluent), 1 ASL speaker, and two people who can fake their way through Korean and Yiddish.


Really with just a few phrases printed on cards an owner could easily pay for the cost of the cards and training in just a month.

Fact is this owner is a scared person who probably hasn't been required to learn a lot of new things in their adult life since leaving school. But with a few Cue Cards he can stay not learning anything if he wants, and still increase his business.

This Owner is doing something that is bad for business and is morally wrong. You can do morally bad things that are good for biz but when it isn't you really are showing the darker side of yourself.

I am not here to condemn, I am here to point out how much more money he could make WITHOUT investing nearly ANY time or money.

Saying that you have to train people is a BS Red herring

[Megahurtz]

116. I've worked in countless restaurants

mostly as a waitress. I know how many people in the back speak Spanish, but the English speaking workers are not required to speak it. We try to speak it, in order to communicate with our co-workers. And those co-workers usually try to speak English in order to communicate with us. I don't agree with your statement that Spanish is the Dominant Language of the Food Industry. Not in every restaurant I've worked. Who made up that rule? Do as the Romans do means we are in the U.S. not Mexico. There are many people here who know no Spanish.

So you work in the kitchen, huh? Ever try waiting tables in an extremely busy restaurant on a Saturday night with cue-cards for each language printed LOL.

Sorry I'm not trying to be rude, but any restaurant owner would argue that using cue-cards would cost he/she time and money, because even as a waitress I would argue that.
It's just not practical. Much easier for those Spanish-speaking people to learn English. After all we are in the U.S.

The situation at the cheesesteak restaurant would be just like this. Just imagine if I were to go deep into Mexico and go to a take-out Mexican restaurant. The employees cannot speak English enough to take my order, and they can't understand me. They have the same problem with other English-speaking people. They put up a sign "This is Mexico, please speak Spanish"

I start whining because they will not speak "my" language. Now do I have a right to go in their Country and take them to Court for this and expect to win?
It would be extremely rude to say the least, for me to attempt this and I would never expect to win. That would be morally wrong.
I would only be creating resentment, and more problems for any English-speaking people that came after me.

[slampoet]

118. Who made up the Rule about english?

Oh that's right ....There is no Rule on paper just an unwritten rule that those with different agendas bring out when they need to cover up.


The fact is that this shop has spent more on litigation than any cost or inconvenience of actually serving their customers.



The rule is if you want the Green, you may need to get it from people who aren't like you.
The fact is you are loosing tip money by not attempting to use the Spanish skills you admit to having.

Also ask yourself an honest question. Why is everyone who speaks Spanish at your place working in the back and not on the floor?





"Ever try waiting tables in an extremely busy restaurant on a Saturday night with cue-cards for each language printed?"


Yes, they are called Menus. Anyone can point and say please and MANY non-english speakers do this all over America with no problem.



But also i have witnessed Delacambrian's in Seattle.
In this place Everyone is Deaf. Service is done by pointing at the menu and they did a great service nice and quick.




So you admit you try to speak English to you co-workers. Why are you treating the co-worker with less respect than the Customer?




Also My partner grew up in Mexico and lived there for 15 years. She goes back every couple years. Where are these signs that say speak Spanish? She hasn't seen them. My downstairs neighbor and his wife say they haven't seen such a thing either. They were home there for last Christmas. People in Mexico at least attempt to figure out your English and why is that? Because they are GOOD BUSINESS PEOPLE!

So please don't start making things up. All it does is make you look like you are unwilling to face facts. Not good.


Also you don't need to be fluent to communicate your order. You know the word for burrito right? Do you know how to count to ten? That is enough to ALSO work in a sandwich shop and dazzle your boss by increasing their profits. Maybe you might get that raise you want.


Your argument reminds me of the doctor who thought he didn't have the language skills to ask a Spanish speaking man for a Urine Sample.
I just went up to the man handed him the sample cup and said "Don Senior? Por favor, Numero uno Aqui? para El Doctor."

The doc knew every one of those words, he just had never been challenged to expand his horizons.
He had never been asked to do what Kurt Vonnegut called , "Making Your Soul Grow."




I will argue this. It is ALWAYS much easier to teach an employee to deal with an existing customer's need than it is to find a new market.

Also WE BOTH know that this owner spent more on the Court Case standing up for his right to be a bad business person ....
than he would EVER spend on translation. Don't try to dilute the issue.

[Megahurtz]

119. English IS our National language

in case you don't know History. :think: I'm not making up shit and I am not diluting shit either. Were you born here? You are trying to force the Spanish language.
Every Country on Earth has a National language. No one is going to all of a sudden change for some people that refuse to deal with that fact.

Look, the guy's place is probably very busy. He is going to get business whether he takes the time to change someone else's diaper, or not. He just does not want to deal with it.
Those are facts you must face. And that is the reality of business. There are many restaurants just like this. And you are assuming that every customer is a polite and innocent person.
How do you know that he did not put up this sign over a few mouthy assholes? Note the sign below the language sign notes that he reserves the right to refuse service.
That is usually what a restaurant does to rude and demanding people.

Have you ever thought that it was bad character for a person to actually take someone to Court over this?

The last restaurant I worked in did not sell burritos. Work at a Mexican restaurant and you should learn a little Spanish. Personally I never had the problem of waiting on someone who did not know the English language. And you damn right I know why all of the Spanish people are working in the back, not the front, that's because they are illegal and neither they nor the owner wants INS troubles.
And BTW if someone cannot even READ fucking English (or speak it) how can I point out anything in a menu to them? :wtf:

The reality is, if you go to another Country, you learn how to speak their language. If you have a problem learning and it takes a little time, do not whine and demand special favors.

I'm afraid that when Democrats aggressively push issues like this it gives them a bad name.

[Ordr]

120. Absolutely, 100% right.

[slampoet]

124. They point to it on a Spanish menu that says the same thing as the English one.

Costs you $25 at Kinkos to print an extra set. Pays for itself in one weekend. Time to train staff to use it about one hour total.



And i am not forcing you to accommodate anyone. The FREE MARKET IS forcing you. Don't serve your customer? Loose their biz and maybe the whole business. I didn't make up this law. Adam Smith did in the Wealth of Nations. There is no whining. You either get my dollar or you don't and service is the way.


"And you damn right I know why"

And please before you decide to go off swearing and thus showing your lack of skills in expressing yourself in your native tongue, do look into some history.

There was a vote only ONCE to have an official language. It failed. And English nearly lost out to German as an official language. Why German? Because that it what people in Places Like Philadelphia spoke at the time.



I don't know a single Spanish person who has EVER had INS troubles and I am pretty sure that you have NEVER met a Spanish person who has ever had INS troubles. Maybe you met a Mexican, Guatemalan, Cuban or something, but we tend to welcome Spaniards in a Way that we don't with other Hispanic people.

But you'd rather assume they all work in the back because they have INS problems. If you don't know then you really don't talk to them do you? These are your co-workers. What kind of a waitress are you?

Please don't talk about what gives Democrats a bad name until you stop demonstrating your prejudice.


It isn't bad character to challenge small mindedness. It is called Being a Real American.

[Megahurtz]

130. I Have Several Points Here

Smartass.

#1 As said in my previous post, no employer is going to spend extra money on Spanish menus and spend extra money on training their staff to speak Spanish. It would be extremely stupid to do so and it is favoritism. If they are busy establishment they are already making more than enough money from their English-speaking customers, who, as a whole tip much better than the Spanish-speaking ones. We live in America and we speak English. Get over it.

#2 Don't tell me that I "lack skills in expressing myself in my Native tongue." It only makes you look like a Giant Asshole.

#3 I don't give a Rat's Ass that German may have been the official language. It was not Spanish. And we have been speaking English for years. So English it is.

#4 Who in hell was talking about people from Spain with INS troubles? :wtf::crazy:
Reread my posts. I said Spanish-speaking people (which happen to be from Mexico) at the restaurant I worked and yes unfortunately I know some who have had INS problems.

#5 Then you say that I don't know if any people in the back had, or could potentially face any INS problems because in your words "you don't know then you really don't talk to them do you?" You sure you want to stick with that, slampoet? Do you have a video camera setup or are you clairvoyant? :sarcasm:
And with your all-knowingness :eyes: you ask me what kind of waitress I am? Wow, you have gall.
#6 You refuse to accept that English is the language of the United States but you say that I am the one demonstrating predjudice?
Look in the mirror, Dude! "Real Americans" accept English as the official American language!

#7 And finally, you say that "it isn't bad character to challenge small-mindedness" Ha! Well I don't know where else to go with that one....

You owe me an apology for the lame personal insults in your post but I certainly won't hold my breath!

[slampoet]

134. Could you please repost in English? I don't speak emoticon.

Too bad you are still having troubles expressing yourself in your native tongue.

[Megahurtz]

137. Can you understand this then?

The National language of the U.S. is English. You go to a restaurant and order in English.

If the person doesn't have the time and cannot understand you, you don't get your order, it's that simple.
You cannot force anyone who speaks the Native language in their own Country to do anything else than just that.
And no whining and demanding special favors.
No one has any obligation to you to learn speak any foreign language if you live here and are too lazy to learn to speak English.
If someone is here on vacation it might be a different story.

That should be a requirement to apply for residency.
People that want to reside here should be required to take a language class and learn to reasonably communicate in English.
If you don't like it and refuse to do it? Then go home.

If people want to speak a foreign language in their own home or amongst themselves, fine.
But when you go out in public and speak to other Americans, you need to adapt to your surroundings and speak the language of the land.
Besides, it's just plain old fucking rude if you don't. Comprende?

If you don't comprende then perhaps you need an English language Class!

[LanternWaste]

145. What's the National language of Switzerland?

"Every Country on Earth has a National language."

What's the National language of Switzerland? Oops-- they have four.

There are quite a few other examples of countries living amicably with more than one language.

[Megahurtz]

131. ???AND

Do you have a problem comprehending what I am saying? :wtf:

I had said:

>"I know how many people in the back speak Spanish, but the English speaking workers are not required to speak it.
We try to speak it, in order to communicate with our co-workers.
And those co-workers usually try to speak English in order to communicate with us."<

And then you said:

>"So you admit you try to speak English to you co-workers. Why are you treating the co-worker with less respect than the Customer?"<

I just said that we try to speak Spanish to our Mexican co-workers and you accuse me of treating them with less respect? OMG :crazy:

[LanternWaste]

144. I lived in MX for eighteen months...

I lived in MX for eighteen months and never once came across a sign, placard, request, command, or implication of any kind to speak Spanish Only.

Although I was in the slow process of learning the language (much like all the foreign born here in the U.S), 99% of all conversations I had always devolved into English-- not so I could better understand them, but so that they could better understand me.

But, there is a major difference between Mexico and the U.S.-- most Mexicans are multi-lingual. We're simply a country of English Only's, and for some reason, we think that's good enough.

[LanternWaste]

140. Precisely how I feel...

"Holy Crap quitcher' whining."

Precisely how I feel about English Only's...

[marshall]

114. What if it said "Please state your order in English"

I can see how it would be confusing if somebody was ordering something, especially a complicated order, when it's not in a language the waiters or cooks understand.
But if they are just sitting around a table chatting with each other, what difference does it make what language they speak.

[Karenina]

117. Your revenues from tourism are crashing

as fast as your economy. Couldn't happen to a more welcoming bunch of folks. :eyes:

[yurbud]

122. what about ''management reserves right to refuse service''? that's in pic on story

I heard once that dates back to Civil Rights era as code for we won't serve blacks (or at least those who get out of their place).

I always wondered about those signs.

This guys sign is stupid, but at worst, he is hurting his own business in a nation of immigrants.

What's the worst that's going to happen to this guy if he didn't have the sign up? Every once in a while someone would say, "Yo quero cheesesteak, por favor.'' Wouldn't that get the job done? If someone knew so little English they couldn't even read the menu, wouldn't they just point at the photo of the food or not stop?

Ultimately, this guy is hurting himself. I live in LA and worked as a messenger for a couple of years and everyday I'd count the number of languages I'd hear and lose track after about ten, and consider myself lucky to live in a place where I could come in contact with so many different cultures.

[slampoet]

125. Great post.

You are right. Ultimately the Market Forces will determine this business' fate.

[TexasBushwhacker]

123. Just boycott, geez!

It's really pretty simple. Those who don't approve of his "This is America. When ordering, please speak English." sign, should take their business elsewhere. Voting with your pocketbook is very effective.

[slampoet]

129. Has anybody Noticed the Sign Isn't Printed in Proper English?

The phrase "Speak English" is a literal term and not colloquial so therefore it shouldn't be in Quotation Marks.


It is always the bigoted assholes who aren't patriotic enough to really study their culture and language who seem to fear other people and their culture/languages.

[chixydix]

142. "quotation marks" shouldn't be capitalized.

;-)

[and-justice-for-all]

133. Does this mean that if I order in deutsch, I will not be served? nt

[VaYallaDawg]

139. All of this discourse just reinforces one aspect of American life.

Freedom of speech naturally includes the freedom to be an asshole. And, naturally, one man's "assholiness" (doncha love that one!!) is just another's exercise of freedom of speech.

[NoGOPZone]

141. The sign was a 'political statement'? More like a publicity stunt

Maybe people were finally realizing that Geno's is an overpriced tourist trap and Vento thought the business needed some attention.