What Created This (Financial) Monster? (worse news to come)

[UpInArms]

Source: New York Times

<snip>

The Federal Reserve not only taken has action unprecedented since the Great Depression — by lending money directly to major investment banks — but also has put taxpayers on the hook for billions of dollars in questionable trades these same bankers made when the good times were rolling.

“Bear Stearns has made it obvious that things have gone too far,” says Mr. Gross, who plans to use some of his cash to bargain-shop. “The investment community has morphed into something beyond banks and something beyond regulation. We call it the shadow banking system.”

<snip>

TWO months before he resigned as chief executive of Citigroup last year amid nearly $20 billion in write-downs, Charles O. Prince III sat down in Washington with Representative Barney Frank, the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee. Among the topics they discussed were investment vehicles that allowed Citigroup and other banks to keep billions of dollars in potential liabilities off of their balance sheets — and away from the scrutiny of investors and analysts.

<snip>

While there have been a handful of relatively minor defaults that, in some cases, ended in litigation as participants struggled over contract language and other issues, the market has not had to absorb a bankruptcy of one of its biggest players. Bear Stearns held credit default swap contracts carrying an outstanding value of $2.5 trillion, analysts say.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/business/23how.html?_r=1&ref=business&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

---

$45 trillion and more uncounted and it looks like the taxpayer will be forced to foot the bill for the party of greed

[goddess40]

1. deregulation started it all

it's been coming since the government started deregulating everything. Add to that contracting out, NAFTA and the fact that those in office look the other way as energy and health care industries gouge the crap out of us.

The Iraq invasion is just the cherry on top, granted a very large cherry, but it's just the final insult.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

3. Maybe we'll see one good thing out of all this

The Great Depression resulted in a lot more regulation on the financial sector. Hopefully we will see the same thing coming out of this mess. History has shown us over and over again that when greed is allowed to run rampant, without any regulation, it quickly consumes itself and anyone standing nearby.

[Donkeykick]

5. Well Said!

:applause:

[Robbien]

7. I don't see that happening

Most of the bills coming out of our Congresscritters are about either giving money to banks or giving money to homeowners.

So far not one proposed bill out there is to reinstate any of the regs torn down in the last decade or two.

In the previous bailouts, regs were installed as a condition of the bailout. Now we are just giving away free money to loosen up the liquidity crisis so that we can go back to doing business as usual.

The battle cry out there right now is "If finance is foolishly re-regulated, it will fare even worse."

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

8. They would probably be vetoed by Bush

Hopefully we'll have a Democrat in the Whitehouse next January, and bills like this will be brought up.

[SemperEadem]

77. that name....

TWO months before he resigned as chief executive of Citigroup last year amid nearly $20 billion in write-downs, Charles O. Prince III

Hmm... any relation to Erik Prince, the guy who owns Blackwater?

[jmowreader]

131. I don't think so

According to Wikipedia, Erik Prince's only sibling is the wife of Dick DeVos, who used to run Amway.

[Hannah Bell]

172. Interesting, since the de vos' are fundies & so is the blackwater

prince.

i think it's possible there's a relationship between the princes. worth looking into.

[Hannah Bell]

175. but so far, nothing. charles is the son of a plasterer.

erik is the son of a magnate.

[Clear Blue Sky]

20. Congress can't seem to see beyond the next election cycle.

Their actions are generally geared to their reelection and little else.

[Jakes Progress]

32. Agree

Neither of our candidates is really going after this. I'll bet by November we'll be getting lots John Edwards populism in our campaign literature. Our two candidates are both beneficiaries of the system we have.

[kineneb]

45. Wait. The rules will be back,

but only after much pain. The market crash was in 1929, the true impact of the the Depression didn't become apparent until 1933.

We will be flying into an area of severe turbulence. <bing> Passengers, please notice the seatbelt light is now on. Be prepared for a rough ride.

[truedelphi]

55. And passengers, when we land - we will be in Romania

A total wipe out of the economy.

514 TRILLION dollars in derivatives, held world wide.

Only people who are talking abt it are some newspapers out of India and a few financially related presses.

514 TRILLION dollars is Forty times the average yearly GNP of this nation (13 trillion and change)

[kineneb]

64. so true, and so not noted

I have know about this for some time, but then I don't own a TV or subscribe to a newspaper. The on-line "press" is where I get my info.

When the fallout from the derivatives market flies through the wind machine, the entire world will be affected, but the US will be affected most of all. We are the largest debtor nation, and we are almost a wholly-owned subsidiary of China, Inc.

[truedelphi]

69. I notice that the same newspapers in India that were friendly

To the idea that the American elections were stolen are the same newspapers that talk abt the coming takeover of the USA.


If the Federal Reserve becomes the ultimate "decider" over Wall St - what is your take on that, kineneb?

I keep posting on Du that all the notions that the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp is there and will help all of us who bank - that the notion is obsolete.

FDIC is only going to be able to help the patrons of the first
four or five banks that fail - that in fact in might only be the first two or three banks that fail. I base this on the fact that when the Contenital Bank in Ill went south in the early 1980's - at that time, the economic experts realized that four other calamities of a similar nature would wipe out the FDIC. ANd back in that era - no bank was as huge as what Citigroup's owned banks are - Citigroup is enormous. They have bought out so many smaller financial institutions that I have lost count.

[kineneb]

79. the Fed. Res., hmmm,

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion/intuition, based on what I have read and observed. I am but a humble, poor musician and caregiver, with no irons in this fire... other than being a citizen.

I am not sure the Fed can continue to prop up Wall St. much longer. The timing between injections of funds and the next mini-collapse is getting closer and closer together. They are rapidly running out of options, and so much of the financial world is in serious denial.

The FDIC is probably just as broke as the rest of the government. I don't trust it to be of much use when the S***HitsTheFan. The whole mess is rather frightening; so much so, I am not sure the US Gov. will survive the unwinding.

[lark]

143. Same with BofA

They've bought up tons of banks in the last 15-20 years

[ooglymoogly]

178. My sense is that the takeover is well under way.

and nothing short a revolution can now stop it.

[Tansy_Gold]

182. I agree, oogly

I keep thinking of "A Tale of Two Cities." Could be "A Tale of Two Americas."


It was the best of times (for a fortunate few), because it was the worse of times (for far too many).


Tansy Gold

[lark]

142. Get the barf bags ready

Steep descent is in progress!

[laylah]

76. While I agree

with the majority of your post, I am a homeowner, working class poor person, whose mortgage is in trouble. I haven't seen anything but threats of foreclosure. Please, if you know of possible assistance (and help UP, not OUT), do tell.

[ooglymoogly]

90. layla, depending on your age and cituation and what state you live in

I have some suggestions that may or may not help so contact me at my du message box.

[ooglymoogly]

92. sorry wrong place

[Doremus]

103. I'm very sorry to hear that, laylah.

Unfortunately I don't know of any programs currently available to help, I have just a few suggestions that you may or may not have already done/thought of.

Meeting with the mortgage holder to renegotiate terms can't hurt. The worst thing they can do is say no, and they might possibly consider it in their best interests to keep another foreclosure off their books right now.

A lawyer who specializes in defending foreclosure can delay the process by several months or more. This will give you time to work things out, or at the least come up with Plan B.

My very best wishes to you.

[Doremus]

112. Just came across this article -- could be important for you

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aejJZdqodTCM&refer=patrick.net

Banks Lose to Deadbeat Homeowners as Loans Sold in Bonds Vanish

By Bob Ivry

Feb. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Joe Lents hasn't made a payment on his $1.5 million mortgage since 2002.

That's when Washington Mutual Inc. first tried to foreclose on his home in Boca Raton, Florida. The Seattle-based lender failed to prove that it owned Lents's mortgage note and dropped attempts to take his house. Subsequent efforts to foreclose have stalled because no one has produced the paperwork.

``If you're going to take my house away from me, you better own the note,'' said Lents, 63, the former chief executive officer of a now-defunct voice recognition software company.

Judges in at least five states have stopped foreclosure proceedings because the banks that pool mortgages into securities and the companies that collect monthly payments haven't been able to prove they own the mortgages. The confusion is another headache for U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson as he revises rules for packaging mortgages into securities.

More at link above

[deadmessengers]

128. Hmmm. Who to feel bad for....

Wow - there's a dilemma. Who's side do I take here - the guy who welched on his 1.5 million dollar mortgage, or the megabanks who are fucking our country?

[Doremus]

164. Why not feel sorry for the victims lured by empty promises

BTW, you might want to actually read the OP. Derivatives, i.e. subprime mortgages and their ilk, were purposely shrouded in as much smoke and as many mirrors as Wall St. could muster. Why? It doesn't take a physicist to figure that out, though you'll need one to interpret the formulas with which they're created.

The point is that the banks don't even know the who/what/when of their mortgage holdings. These homeowners could be paying the wrong institution for all they know. Do you often pay people you don't anything to? Feel free to send some my way.

[Hannah Bell]

173. Yes. If the banks sold the note, how can they foreclose on the

house?

and why would they try? That's a nice scam. Get your money twice.

[jwirr]

98. Naomi Klein was just on Link TV talking about this. Corporations

turn these "emergencies" into ways to change laws in their favor. What we are facing is "Empire" with a capital E. Deregulation is here and it is disastrous for the world - it is not going to be easy to overturn. But we have to.

[ooglymoogly]

139. The problem is we the taxpayer will be handed the bill for bailing

out the swindlers in the banking industry; Meanwhile they will end up owning everything and we will have paid for the biggest swindle of all time even surpassing the great swindle of 29.

[donkeyotay]

147. The worst part is they'll be out crowing that social security shouldn't be "bailed out"

They'll also be saying that the economy is fine, when it's wee, the little people, who are unemployed and/or can't afford to buy the wheat we ship to China. They've got the Fed to supply the cash to float past this, and then they can earn enough profits overseas to not need the famous American consumer. Note that they killed off the American citizen a long time ago.

[Demeter]

14. WE'll Start By Reinstating All The Regs Reagan et al. Removed

[Selatius]

19. Repeal the Commodity Futures Modernization Act passed in autumn 2000 and signed by Clinton.

That act made derivatives essentially off limits to agencies that regulate more traditional assets like stocks, bonds, and futures. It was likely ghost-written by investment banks on Wall Street.

[Hannah Bell]

177. Interesting. There sure was a rash of "modernization"

of financial laws circa 1998-2000.

Why would that be?

[dixiegrrrrl]

23. and guess who FDR appointed to regulate the Stock Market???

Joeseph Patrick Kennedy

THE JP Kennedy
you know, JFK's daddy.....
who later was appointed Ambassador to Britain and sucked up to Chamberlain and Hitler and was "recalled" in disgrace.

[Wednesdays]

81. Those damned Democrats...can't they get anything right??

:eyes:

(Do I really need to add a "sarcasm" icon?)

[Zuiderelle]

116. Why yes, of course, you've cleared it all up. It's all Kennedy's daddy's fault.

Right. :eyes:

[ooglymoogly]

140. What a pile of crap...and yes I have read the junk published about

JPK. All you have to do is look at all and I mean all of Joe's children. Do any of them even remotely resemble authoritarians like the * trash for whom the stories about their ties to Nazi Germany were true.

[BlooInBloo]

33. I doubt it. The root causes are too far removed from the common idiot-on-the-street....

... Just say ooga-boooga-muslim (or mexican or gay or angry black) to him, and you've got his republican-cum-deregulation vote.

[H8fascistcons]

43. Yeah But....

Agreed more regulation is needed but as soon as as America elects another criminal Fascist republican, they just deregulate and declare victory, we end up in the same place, our country all that much poorer...



*Please never forget that the criminal Fascist republicans could not continue to commit crime against us and our constitution if it did not have help from the Democratic Fascist enablers Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Jay Rockefeller, Ted Kennedy, Rahm Emanuel. Please never forget until these criminal Democrats are all voted from office....

[drexel dave]

44. plus, the end of Wal-Mart and poor people who weigh 700 lbs.

nt

[whistle]

53. The next depression as being set-up by these thugs will result in a fascist takeover in the U.S.

[The Wizard]

99. Sharks on a feeding frenzy

will start devouring one another. That was the metaphor Melville used in Moby Dick back in 1850, about the same time Marx was making similar observations about capitalism. In biblical terms, greed is a deadly sin. The term vulture capitalism seems to fit.

[lark]

141. Wishful thinking, I fear

After Enron spectacularly disintegrated, and even after it was proven that they single handedly almost destroyed the CA economy, almost nothing was done. The thing that's changed, is that the rich control twice as much of the economy as they did in the 30's. I saw a chart the other day that said the richest one percent controlled 8% of the wealth in 1929 and now control 16% and growing. Their inordinate influence shows in the 2x election of shrub, the worst president ever, but a total tool for this group. With Wall St. giving 6 million apiece to both Obama and Clinton, but only 1.2 million to McCain, do you expect either (any) of them to take a tough stance? I'd be extremely surprised.

[donkeyotay]

149. You don't hear any candidates talk about investigation or reform.

None of the congressional ATMs are under any real threat. Before I insult Obama, let me preface it with saying I think no more highly of Hillary or McCain, but I see Obama as this generation's Reagan (and that is not a compliment). He's wears a good suit, makes a fine speech, (and is a 1000 times smarter than Reagan) but in the end, I see no indications that he will challenge the existing power structure. The thing that's bad about him, though, is that like Reagan, he will put the citizens back to sleep. All the work done up until now to identify what's wrong will be forgotten in the forward-looking happy talk.

[Tansy_Gold]

156. It's much worse. From Kevin Phillips' "Wealth and Democracy"

<snip, pp. 92-93>

Between 1979 and 1989 the portion of the nation's wealth held by the top 1 percent nearly doubled, skyrocketing from 22 percent to 39 percent, probably the most rapid escalation in U.S. history. Chart 3.14 in the next chapter uses Congressional Budget Office data to show the extraordinary extent to which the Reagan and Bush administratiobns of 1981 to 1993 benefited the top 1 percent rather than the rest of the population. . . . (T)he ecocomic strategy of 1920s replication, of bolstering corporations and expanding financial assets, had been a roaring success. Wealth had ballooned, making the top individual and family fortunes of 1992 two to three times the size of their 1982 counterparts. The gap between the rich and everyone else was yawning to widths unseen since the 1920s and 1930s.

. . .

Conservatives of the 1980s, for their part, rarely balked at using authority to promote economic goals, even if many changes required a new role for government. The most important new fuctions and layers involved the collectivization (socialization) of financial risks. Liberals, for their part, had built much of their 1932-1968 politics around collectivizing the risks of old age and indigence through programs like Social Security, welfare, and Medicare. Conservative government, especially in the eighties, undertook to collectivize a different set of risks, this time the perils to investors of seeking high returns by putting money in precarious financial institutions, currencies, or overseas investments.

<end snip>

I saw the other day, and I don't remember where I saw it, that the top 1 percent now control as much as 70% of the wealth in this country.

And here's another snip from Phillips, p. 97:

"The industrial policy debate of the early 1980s had long since ended. But in retrospect, the United States did adopt a kind of 'industrial policy,' one that bowed to the mounting national importance of both private finance and the treasury and Federal Reserve Board. Instead of seeking to restore the older manufacturing industries or build the new technological sector, Washignton authorities steadily protected and advanced banking and finance, providing rescues from perils, insolvencies, and crises hithertoe regarded as being hazards of the marketplace."

Businesses that take foolish risks and lose fail all the time, and that includes the foolish risk of not keeping up with a changing market. The govt. doesn't rush to bail them out. Remember Montgomery Ward? K-Mart?

We are facing some seriously bad juju here, folks. And I'm not sure what to do about it.


Tansy Gold

[Hannah Bell]

179. I noted this on another thread, & how concentrated wealth

effectively serves as a channel for a small minority to control the majority, as "market makers" & in other ways.

I got the reply that the majority had "more," so they had more effect on markets - the implication being that concentrated control over wealth was of little import.

Hard to believe this is "democratic" "underground" sometimes.

[Tansy_Gold]

184. Some of us are further left of "center" than others ;-)

Truth is, the "majority" don't have more. We don't have more money, we don't have more assets, we don't have more power.

This is what scares me about the whole Dem nomination battle: Between the media, the puke PTB, and the centrist/biz "dems" who run the party apparatus both in and out of govt (Reid, Pelosi, Dean, McAuliffe, BClinton, etc.), the nomination battle has gone on far too long. It's now pitting Dems against Dems, and the longer it goes on, the deeper the anger will get. I warned against this back in February, that a long drawn out primary race would lead to fracturing of the Dem coalition, leaving the way open to the puke nominee. As weak and awful as McCain is, he's not totally loathsome (except to us) and he still has some support, enough that if a bunch of disaffected Dems don't vote at all or go for a third party, we could have another puke administration.

Even worse: all the various PTB managed to quickly eliminate the one Dem candidate -- Edwards -- who probably had the best chance of changing the power structure. Kucinich was further to the progressive side, but he didn't have a chance of being elected.

What I fear most about a puke administration is that they will indeed bankrupt the treasury to prop up the sleaziest of the financial markets, the ones that most benefit the uber-wealthy. But there's not enough real money to do that, which means the investment banks will fail, then the real banks will fail, and then the whole system will fail. I don't see a peaceful economic depression like the 1930s; I see real revolution. And that's scary.

Tansy Gold, who prefers to be optimistic but sometimes isn't

[EVDebs]

49. Eliminating Glass-Stegall under Clinton's watch and the entire Reagan fiasco

years,as Naomi Klein illustrates in Shock Doctrine, is the epitome of 'disaster capitalism' where only a few at the top benefit while EVERYBODY else in the world gets the shaft. It's like the current neocon agenda hasn't been bad enough and they want still more on top of that. The entire house of cards is falling.

The 'geniuses' at the Wharton School and CitiGroup demanded this crap get railroaded through. Now we're all paying the price for their worthless MBAs. Isn't the current president an MBA ? That says it all.

[JTFrog]

54. The repeal of Glass-Steagall would be a huge factor.

The undoing of the safeguards that FDR had put into place is fairly obvious.

[Vidar]

148. Amen to that. " Deregulation started it" ... and unbridled greed fueled the fire.

[Orsino]

150. Allowing Big Money to influence legislation started it all.

Big Money (surprise!) votes for deregulation of Big Money.

Get the money out of politics, and you can begin to regulate wisely. Leave the money in place, and you will never, ever get your country back.

[donkeyotay]

152. So true. And the silence from the dems on this is deafening. nt

[acmavm]

2. The 'taxpayer' CAN'T foot the bills. We're all tapped out. And the ones

with money are the ones with the tax breaks.

Go figure.

[UpInArms]

4. TPTB will still try and tie the albatross of the debt on the broken

taxpayer.

Or, how do they declare the USoA insolvent? and who/what will take over and destroy what is left of it?

just askin' - and I wish I had any answer to any of it

:weepingforourlostcountry:

[wordpix]

109. with a $9.2 trillion debt, WHO REALLY is footing the bailout bill? China, SA, Japan,

and the UAE

[Jester_11218]

6. The FED is a criminal operation...

People are missing the big picture.

http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/editorial/jesse-richards-commentary/19-jesses-thoughts/665-dear-lou-dobbs-who-owns-the-federal-reserve

The Fed is a criminal operation. It is a private bank that controls our monetary system. This is why there was a revolution...to get away from the Bank of England. This is why we live in a debt based economy.

Jesse

[Nay]

18. We live in a debt-based economy not because of the perfidy of the Fed, but

because of the greediness of all the bankers(not just the few banks that are with the Fed), loan operators, credit card companies, retail organizations, and investment banks that decided they wanted our FUTURE money (thru debt) and were not satisfied with getting the money we earn today. They figured correctly that the public would go on a buying spree for (mostly) worthless junk if they were presented with ways to tap their home equity and future earnings.

In my youth, you couldn't get a loan unless it was VERY obvious you could pay it back. If you didn't make enough money at your job, you didn't get a loan. You had to be in your job for a number of years, have a good history of paying your bills, and the money had to be borrowed for a thing that had a big price tag but was important -- think a car, house, home improvement, college education, business startup. There was no such thing as getting equity from your house to go on vacation or buy stuff at Walmart. I can't stress enough to the younger folks here that credit was not automatically extended to everyone, willy-nilly, back in those days. When I started college in 1969, college kids were not offered, and did not have, credit cards, unless their parents were quite rich and got them a credit card on their own (the parents') account to use while at school. Note that this credit card was the PARENTS' card, not the kids'.

Retail outlets were only just starting to have charge cards, and you had to qualify for those, too. Half the ppl in this country today would NEVER have qualified for any kind of card because they do not make enough money. At the risk of sounding like a fuddy-duddy, I can say that I feel we should return to this standard. Paying for food, medical emergencies, and such with credit cards has, predictably, turned into a monster. In the end, it does not help ppl "get out of a hole" -- it puts them farther and farther into one, as we have seen. It allows ppl who are magical thinkers (and there are a lot of them) to fool themselves into believing that next week, next month, next year, and they will be out of the jam -- if they can stretch the payments, use the cc to pay Peter and put off Paul just one more time....rather than getting immediately down to the realistic work of selling the house, renting a small apt, dumping the new cars for used, etc., etc., which is what everyone in the old days did RIGHT AWAY so they could fix their situations.

Now, as far as the Fed goes, the article mentions that the Fed has NO regulatory authority or oversight authority over investment banks, hedge funds, or any other derivatives funds organizations. How the Fed was supposed to fix this beforehand, well, I have no idea. Certainly they could have recommended caution, produced reports, etc., and some Fed economists and presidents did, but were ignored.

Also, people point to Greenspan as a major player and he was, but his ideology, not the fact that he was Fed chairman, was what made him act the way he does. He is, and always has been, an Ayn Rand libertarian who believes in very little regulation of anything. RW ideologues like him are in power all over the place, due to the infiltration of all levels of govt and business by these assholes for 35 years. I don't know what you can do about that except wait for them to die of old age.

[Selatius]

21. And while we're waiting for them to kick the bucket, stop more Ayn Rand Libertarians from getting in

We wouldn't be in this mess if it weren't for greedy bankers trying to find ways to squeeze bigger profit margins at the expense of everything else because the shareholders on the Board want more.

[truedelphi]

72. But the Federal Resrve is an abomination because the

Framers of the Constitution specifcally railed against the notion of a central bank - they had full experience with the wars for proft that occurred on account of England's realtionship with a central bank.

Read Jefferson for his take on how once a central bank would be established - in short order, over just a few generations, the children of free people would be indebted and indentured slaves.

[Nay]

117. I have read Jefferson on the subject, and I agree. My point in my

post above was to point out that in THIS debacle, the Fed is relatively blameless except in the idiocy and libertarianism of its former chairman. I do NOT agree that Bear Stearns should be bailed out by the Fed, but I was not addressing any of that. I mainly wanted to outline how things USED to be for the younger folks here who grew up in a sea of credit, trying to get them to understand that they don't have to live that way.

I'm sure that the Fed and the banks and the govt will have tons of sins to own up to -- but I don't want to write a book. Just wanted to do a post.

[ooglymoogly]

176. and that cannot be said enough.

[Hydra]

74. Look deeper at the federal reserve and what currency really means

This "crisis" could be over tomorrow. They could make it happen. Anyone wondering why the Fed is pretending that they didn't see this coming and can't do anything to stop it?

Disaster capitalism playing out through the control of currency.

Is there labor not being used here in the US? Yes, plenty. What's the holdup? No money. Why is there no money, except to bail out people who were profiting from this mess?

The illusion is that they don't control the situation.

[Yavin4]

96. Nay, Easy Credit Is Used To Subdue Labor

Re-read your post. Basically, what you are saying is that people had to earn GOOD wages in order to pay for items like a house, a car, a college education, etc.

Without easy credit, the populace would pressure their employers and their government for better wages, more money for education, health care, etc.

IOW, access to easy credit killed the will of the working class people to demand more from their jobs and their govt.

[Nay]

118. Certainly that is one effect of credit - it gives a sort of 'breathing

room' to consumers, letting them think they can afford stuff when they really can't. But I don't think the powers that be parsed it down to that level. I think they just knew that they could enslave the rubes with debt, so they did it.

[Yavin4]

122. The Powers That Be Knew EXACTLY What They Were Doing

Compare the 70s to the 80s. In the 70s, the workforce was highly unionized, college and healthcare were affordable, and homes were reasonably priced.

In the 80s, Reagan and the Fed allowed cheap debt to permeate our economy which has acted to dull the senses of the working class.

[ckramer]

35. The mess started by #1 criminal Alan Greenspan in year 2000

by lowing the interest rates too low too long.

Now we are suffering from the consequences of housing bubble, subprime bubble, hedge bubble, and debt bubble.

All thanks to criminal Alan Greenspan.

The current Fed is probably doing the same thing again.

Down the drain we go.

[truedelphi]

71. Please keep stressing this point.

My son has a degree in economics (From an ivy league universtiy nonetheless!)

And he knows almost nothing abt the real nature of the Fed Reserve.

His wife, as a banking exec, gives speeches to the Fed Reserve - she is also ignorant. Both of them believe that the Fed exists to "help" the American economy. They ahve no idea of tthe profit driven nature of this institution

Thanks for posting the links.

[notadmblnd]

9. Well I'd say the joke is on them this time.

They've killed the cow with the golden teet; the US middle class.

[sam sarrha]

15. that was the goal.. repeal the New Deal.. enslave us, read "Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein

[EVDebs]

50. You're oh so right on the money ! I'm reading it now. Friedman's grave, where is it ?

[greyghost]

17. That is the bottom line.

[Nay]

22. I think joke's on us, unfortunately. Sure, they killed the cow, but they

meant to. That's what you do with a cow that can't give any more milk -- you send it to slaughter so you can process it for beefsteaks.

That's what's happened to us. We've obviously given up all the money we can, so now we are being taken to the slaughterhouse. The rich, unlike the middle class, has invested its wealth in real things that cannot be taken from them -- land, property, social connections -- while the idiot middle class squandered its wealth on Gucci bags, SUVs, fancy boats, dumbass manicures, McMansions, and other junk. And don't forget that half these "middle class" ppl voted for that moron Bush. Twice.

I confess I have very little compassion for most of the middle class I know. They think I'm kinda weird for driving a 14-yr-old car, but I think they're stupid for squandering their dough on useless junk. So we're even.

[0007]

105. Working class move down to the lowest cast.

[msongs]

10. the first thing to do is remove the "right" of personhood from corporations & treat them for what

they are which is business entities designed to shelter money from taxes and liability. A business entity should have no 'civil rights' or status as a human being in legal or social matters.

Msongs

[truth2power]

13. Remove personhood from corporations. I agree....

But there doesn't seem to be any motivation to give this issue the attention it deserves.

After that:

publicly funded elections
instant runoff voting

[Summer93]

26. the first thing to do is remove the "right" of personhood from corporations & treat them for what

yes, that would go a long way toward changing the economy. Give them to opportunity to pay taxes.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. Yes. I agree! nt

[Wapsie B]

97. That's right.

Nothing substantive will be changed in this system until corporations are stripped of the right of personhood.

[wordpix]

110. agreed

[cornermouse]

11. In effect, mopping up anything that hasn't already been grabbed.

[Speciesamused]

12. Let us not forget the biggest reason we are in this The WAR....

and it is the poor and middle class tax payers
paying the price. Not the ones who made all the money off
the War. That would be ludicrous!!!

[Nitrogenica]

16. It's sickening, who stood by and let this all happen?

[AllyCat]

24. Bill Clinton and the Bushes let it happen as did the Repuke Congress

If and when we recover from this nightmare, will the powers that be drop this ridiculous deregulation mess and get back to some oversight so we don't foot the bill for this and other tragedies?

[fascisthunter]

25. Get Rid of Corporate Personhood and Regulate!!!! (nt)

[donkeyotay]

27. Have you used muckety?

http://www.muckety.com/Henry-S-Bienen/2282.muckety

Great site.

[dixiegrrrrl]

63. donkeyotay, that is a GREAT site

should be used and posted every time one of the crooks is discussed.

I have been looking for something like this, was even trying to make my own.

super find....thanks !!!!

Sadly, it clearly shows the Fascist picture of our current government..
all the links between CIA, WH, Corporations.
Overwhelming.x(

[donkeyotay]

151. You're welcome. You might also like silobreaker. nt

[enid602]

28. new movie?

I have a feeling there will be a new movie out soon: 'The Smartest Guys on the Street.' enron redux.

[Summer93]

29. Pardon my naivte

If we as taxpayers just bailed out Bear Sterns and we now have a vested interest in the company that took them over when should I look forward to receiving that stock certificates? Oh sill me:sarcasm:

[donkeyotay]

30. Silly you. There's always a private company within the public company.

The profits are private and the debts are public. If the debts get too big, they do an IPO and offer the bad paper to the tax payers! Double plus good. Under no circumstance should those with the profits be expected to pay for any of this mess. That's what they have us for.

[6th Borough]

168. Pretend the "stimulus" checks in the mail...

are a dividend payment from your newfound stakeholder status in JP Morgan. :sarcasm:

That check in the mail is a bit easier to understand than placing a short bet on corporate credit.

[librechik]

31. Yikes! something's going to need a major correction

:spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank:
:spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank:
:spank::spank:

times a trillion


and the fat cat Bush Buddies get away scot free again.


See you in the bread lines at Gitmo!

[bagrman]

34. If some of you are loosing your home in this mess this article might give you some help. or hope

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aejJZdqodTCM&refer=patrick.net

Good luck

[DaveJ]

37. While I normally root for the underdog...

A deadbeat being able to keep his $1.5 million home is a bit much, IMHO. This problem was caused by banks giving loans to deadbeats who may have looked good enough on paper, while honest people end up being the losers according to the way the system operates, and still continue to be.

[bagrman]

42. Not all facing foreclosure are dead beats. there's a lot of reasons that can leave you broke.

If health issues have broken the bank at least you won't be out on the street. Not all facing foreclosure are dead beats.

[EVDebs]

52. You obviously don't live in CA. Home prices are in the stratosphere

and subprime loans were being made by companies left and right without checking much for ability to pay and even at that the 'teaser' rates were being promoted as 'no big thing' you could always refinance. Right. Now we're in for market free fall

4,800 subprime Bay Area loans at risk of foreclosure by 2008
by Kelly Zito, Chronicle Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 24, 2007

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/24/BUSHSUPF7.DTL

The situation out here has gotten MUCH worse now. My relatives who live in Fairfield and in the USAF had to move out of a home they were renting and move on base since the other home was being foreclosed on that they were renting. The for sale signs all over the place are scary.

Normally home prices are around, what, four times income. Out here it's more like 16X's income. There will be a MAJOR CORRECTION to the economy combined with above $4 gasoline and you've got a meltdown of titanic proportions. Thanks to Bush's Base.

[DaveJ]

106. I'm just saying...

People need to know what they are getting into before buying $1.5 million homes.

When I lived in CA, I knew I'd never be able to afford a home there so I left and decided not to return until I could afford it.

Given the assumption prices are 4x higher there than here in Chicago, even a relatively priced $375k home here is still above average. Having been a CEO of a technology firm, I'm surprised this guy wasn't wise enough to make sure he was on solid ground first.

I'm trying to start my own company, which will be through honest work and not some scam or manipulation of funds. And if I'm successful, I'm not going to overextend myself first chance I get. I may even wait for my first million or two before moving out of an apartment. Otherwise I'll never own anything, so, it's upsetting that some people are able to get away with that sort of thing.

[EVDebs]

113. Local prop tax is 1 and 1/4 percent of sales price so when prices tank

so do local tax revenues. The state needs to tax corporations that are profiting from high oil prices (but R's in the legislature won't allow that); the state needs to tax luxury boats etc. (but again R's won't allow that); the state needs to put a surtax on the wealthiest for the duration of the downturn (but again...).

Bush's ideology of neocon Friedmaniac Shock Doctrine / disaster capitalism will have to run its course.

There will have to be a market cap on taxes to an area's median household income level. Let's say 4X's that level should be all that local government should allow property taxation to. The rest should be from income taxes at the progressive standard.

What we've got now is the Flat Tax. David Cay Johnston's book Perfectly Legal shows us this.

[kbqr]

38. November 12, 1999 - Bill Clinton Repeals Glass Steagall Act

Where was Hillary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act

[balantz]

39. Ah, now I see, this is the trickle down Reagan spoke of way back

in the beginning days of deregulation.

A trickle down of $45 trillion debt on our heads.

So now we poor folk are expected to pay for the robbery pulled off by the wealthiest.

We Americans really got suckered into this shit.

[kbqr]

41. It is more Clinton than Reagan that created the financial wreck

Clinton repealed Glass Steagall and he also introduced heavy manipulation of inflation and unemployment numbers.

[EVDebs]

56. Bill went along for the Republican ride. Larry Pressler wrote the Telecom Act

and Glass Steagall was pushed by the Wharton School and CitiGroup and most of the WallSt mafia with their highly paid lobbyists. Our stupid congress went along for the ride too since all the right palms were greased. The myth of the populist stock market also made for easy pickings by way of a pliant media, only too willing to spread the bullshit.

Read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine. Disaster Capitalism had its adherents in the ivory towers to help out, too. Remember, Bush has a HARVARD MBA degree. That says it all.

[magellan]

58. Do your homework

Where we're at now can be blamed on the actions and inaction of both parties since Reagan. The repeal of Glass-Steagall was just the icing on the cake.

Clinton didn't start deregulation or originate the manipulation of inflation and unemployment numbers. He only carried on doing what his predecessors, Bush Sr. and Reagan, had done.

Blame this on one person, one party, and not only do you miss the point: you make yourself part of the problem.

[kbqr]

70. Blame one person, one party? Ridiculous

http://www.progressivehistorians.com/2007/11/bill-clintons-role-in-mortgage-crisis.html

[Wednesdays]

85. Doofus...it's all Clinton's fault!

:spank: :spank: :spank:

It's all Clinton's fault! It's all Clinton's fault! It's all Clinton's fault! It's all Clinton's fault! It's all Clinton's fault! It's all Clinton's fault!

Whee! To think, we haven't gotten past 1999 after all!

:sarcasm:

[magellan]

88. Simplistic answers and willful ignorance of any fact that counters personal bias.

What is: This country's doom.

Correct!

I'll take Fall of the American Empire for $600, Alex.

[EVDebs]

114. Also see the documentary The Corporation

http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=312

[bluesmail]

40. Reaganomics K&R

It's the economy stupid.

[syberlion]

46. Removing "Person hood" from corporations will have to start with removing lobbyist

From the halls of Government. The lobbyist is the physical manifestation of the corporation. As long as they are given higher access to the Senators, Congress and the executive branch then the corporations have a greater representation then do the individual citizens. That's what the "Black Box" paperless voting is for, to give corporate control at both ends of the electoral process. Without a paper trail, the corporations can contain any "outbreak" of civil activism.

The reason there is an air of imperialism is because with a despotic leader, you have the development of levels of aristocracy. Everyone can't be the king, however you can be favored in the king's court. The lords and ladies of this administration's court are the corporations.

As the infrastructure crumbles and there is a "let them eat cake" attitude, it will take leading these corporations, one by one if needed, to the guillotine of public action. There will be Boston Tea Parties which will awaken the sleeping public to their equal plight and it will not be broadcast by the "royal" media. The Internet is the Thomas Paine pamphlets of change. Not everyone read the pamphlet, although those that did, talked to others and spread the word.

A body without a Head and a Heart is doomed from the start. It is the individual with a mind and the feelings to make this perceptive social and political change, to bring that which is a mere tool of business back under control of the individual.

[Tansy_Gold]

47. Here's a question: If there are $45T in derivatives sitting around,

what are they, and who put that "value" on them? Is it "real money"? If so, whose "real money" is it? If not, why are we (aka the taxpayer/Treasury-funded Fed) giving the possessors "real money" for something that isn't worth "real money"?

If I have an old wooden chair that I say is worth $10 and I sell it at a yard sale to Marian for $10, it's worth $10. If she then sells it to her neighbor Abigail for $15, it's worth $15. If Abigail cons her mother-in-law Ruth into buying it for $19, it's worth $19. If Ruth takes it to her antiques club and Lewis, one of the members, says it's worth $1500 and buys it from Ruth for $950, it's worth $950. If Lewis takes it to his brother-in-law Roscoe's shop and Roscoe sells it to early American furniture collector Myron for $2750, it's worth $2750. If Myron dies and his widow Trina sells everything at auction and Will believes he can sell it for even more so he bids $3225 for it, it's worth $3225. Will takes it to Antiques Road Show and finds out it's an early 20th century factory reproduction of an 18th century original. . .. and it's worth $10. In the words of cheeeeeeeney, "So?"

I think the American taxpayers have a RIGHT to know what the bloody hell these $45 trillion worth of "derivatives" really are and why someone thinks they're suddenly worth $45 trillion. If they're just some made-up, imaginary "things" that are designed to ultimately do nothing but funnel real money into the hands of lazy ass pieces of shit who did all the making up, then those lazy ass pieces of shit DESERVE to be busted, DESERVE to be sitting on sidewalks with tin cups in their hands, DESERVE to be booted out of their $25 million condos, DESERVE to see their kids booted out of tony private schools and stuck right back in the money-starved public school system with the rest of us peasants.

Even this article says that "derivatives" are murky and opaque and no one really knows how to explain them -- except those who have a vested interest in making sure other people believe these things exist and have "value."

THEY DON'T EXIST. They aren't like chairs or cars or lamps or radios or antibiotics or books or ham sandwiches or tee-shirts. They're funny money. They're scams. They're lies and fabrications and imaginary friends of the very, very, very immorally wealthy. They fulfill no need except to take money from the working classes and siphon it into the pockets of people who don't fucking need it.

The working classes are going to be hurt monumentally by this fiasco. I'm one of them. My mother, my son and daughter, my daughter-in-law and son-in-law, my grandsons, all will be terribly hurt. Maybe we'll weather it because we're resilient and we have practical skills and we aren't in desperate financial situations brought on by this calamity. But there is no easy remedy for this. The ONLY way I can see to "fix" it is for it to collapse. There is no way to prop up an invisible house of cards. There aren't even any cards there! It's nothing, it's air, it's the stuff of dreams.

And now it's the stuff of nightmares.

Let them fall. Let Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch and Lehman and all the hedge funds and investment banks and derivatives traders (remember Enron, anyone???) and the off-balance-sheet liabilities go up in the flames of their own hell. Then let the Fed bail out the retirement funds, the foreclosed homeowners, the small businesses -- the people who actually EARNED that money.


Tansy Gold

[UpInArms]

65. well said!

clear - concise and beautifully written

my hat is off to you!

:applause:

[DCKit]

134. Yikes!!! You could'a just said "Eat the Rich"

But I'm glad you didn't. Nice diagramming for the dense among us.

[lark]

146. Absolutely, this is what would happen in a same world

However, if the world was sane we wouldn't be in this mess. The government help out regular wage earners - that's just laughable for the past, well, forever. The only thing I can think of that the government did for regular folks in the past 20 years was FMLA regulations.

[ckramer]

48. Just a heads-up 4 all DUers who is thinking about jumping back to the stock market

Read this:

Why We Are Still in the Early Innings of the
Bursting of the Housing and Credit Bubbles

http://www.valueinvestingcongress.com/pdf/T2%20Partners%20presentation%20on%20mortgages&bond%20insurers-3-10-08.pdf

[dixiegrrrrl]

60. Ty

very informative site.
Maybe a heads up that it is pdf, tho?)

:headbang:

[whistle]

51. This is the key to what is totally illegal and unconstitutional....

..."The Federal Reserve not only taken has action unprecedented since the Great Depression — by lending money directly to major investment banks — but also has put taxpayers on the hook for billions of dollars in questionable trades these same bankers made when the good times were rolling."

Congress must act immediately to pass the Homeowners and Chartered Bank Foreclosure Protection Act to save millions of homeowners from being thrown out onto the streets and local banks from going under. The Wall Street speculators and hedge fund gamblers are the ones being protected and if this goes on these wealthy few will illegally grab everything through fraud, collusion and manipulation supported by the process taking place now.

[Citizen Kang]

57. How to save yourself from what is to come....

Take out all investments in IRA's, 401Ks, Stocks and Bonds, put them into a FDIC insured bank. Only hold cash right now. If your investments are in any way related to debt or bonds, sell NOW! Even if you think those Bonds are "AAA". Buy Treasuries. Buy gold and silver and actually take possession of it. Own your property outright if you can. Pay down debt. Learn how to garden. Buy a biodiesel or hybrid car.

Now is the time to take steps to protect yourself. The Fed has used up all of its magic bullets. I don't think what they have done will work, only in the short term. Now is the time to take advantage before the feces hits the rapidly rotating object.

[dixiegrrrrl]

62. uhhhhh...about those Treasury bonds....

"The Fed has committed as much as 60 percent of the $709 billion in Treasury securities on its balance sheet to providing liquidity and opened the door to more with yesterday's decision to become a lender of last resort for the biggest Wall Street dealers.” (“Bernanke May Run Low on Ammunition for Loans, Rates”, Bloomberg)

essentially the Fed gave good Treasury bonds to Bear Stearns and got back all the crushing BS debt.
That 709 billion in Treasury securities ( bonds) now owned by a private investment house.
Feds own debt.
Don't think Treasuries are a good buy at the moment.
Cash is good..the interest rate I can get in a Money Market fund is too low to count.
Paying off debt is excellent idea...why should pay 6 to 28 & interest on mortgage or credit card each month when I can't even make 3 % on a savings account?

[Citizen Kang]

86. the reason for treasuries

is that the federal government is the haven of last resort. Yes, they own debt, but no, the federal government is not going to disappear overnight like Bear did. If the Treasury you buy in your name is worthless, than so is the $20 bill you have in your pocket. Best at that point to have Gold and a gun and know how to use both.

Also, a money market account will not save you. Your money is not insured and there are lots of MM's who have money in debt that is about to go bad. I would not put my money there.

Cash is king. Gold is too. Have both IN HAND. Learn to live sustainably. Buy a bike, buy a gun, hold gold and cash. Learn to garden.

[Tansy_Gold]

80. I agree completely

It's back to the future for me -- back to the 70s, living off the land, self-sufficiency, etc. Not as easy to do at 60 as it was at 30, but it's not impossible.

And I've been preaching this almost since I've been on DU -- make do with less. Who needs 40 pairs of shoes? Who needs a $60 "name brand" tee-shirt when a "no-logo" one for $8 will do as well?

I had to chuckle last week as I was buying 8 yards of white cotton flannel at JoAnn fabrics. The woman behind me in line said, "If this were 40 years ago, I'd think you were going to make diapers out of that much flannel. But no one makes diapers any more, so what ARE you using it for?" I answered, "One-of-a-kind quilted jackets. And I made diapers a mere 30 years ago."

A friend was all excited a few weeks ago because she got a really cool jacket on sale at her favorite shop: Originally priced at $250, it was marked down to $65, and since she had a coupon, she got it for $45. She wore it to a dinner party a few nights later -- along with three other women who had bought the same jacket! "I was so embarrassed!" she said. "I'll never be able to wear it again for fear of seeing three other women in the same thing, and I can't even take it back because it was on clearance." I told her, "You could have bought one of mine for $100 and NEVER worry about seeing another one just like it." Plus mine are reversible and machine washable.

I think it's unlikely the whole country will be plunged into a grim, wide-spread poverty situation like the 1930s, simply because we're too accustomed to having too much and we'll find ways to maintain something at least resembling our current "lifestyle." Also, we have much better access to information and communication than previous generations: the internet will probably be altered and perhaps even greatly reduced in scope, but I don't think it will completely disappear. (Recommendation: If you live in a temperate climate zone, or even if you don't, get the full archives of Mother Earth News on CD -- 4 disks, 7000+ articles from 1970-2007, $59.95 at MotherEarthNews.com. Talk about a bargain!!!)

And get used to the idea that when "the big one" hits -- and I don't mean a California earthquake -- life is going to be changed for all of us. Those who are best prepared will feel the impact least.


Tansy Gold

[Doctor_J]

82. Dollars aren't worth much.

and will be worth less and less over the next couple of years.

[Citizen Kang]

87. you could convert to Euros

but good luck buying $10/gallon gas with those.

[ckramer]

59. US Fed is Merely an Extension of the Financial Industry - end quote

Bear Stearns Bailout Proves US Fed is Merely an Extension of the Financial Industry:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article4074.html

[UpInArms]

68. Fed is now the lender of first resort - Commentary: New lending goes beyond what's legally allowed

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/fed-now-lender-first-resort/story.aspx?guid=%7B9A2414E3%2D11C6%2D4240%2D9307%2D79BB5DEED596%7D

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- In a financial crisis, the Federal Reserve has an obligation to become the lender of last resort, making cash available for banks that need it right away to prevent a systemwide meltdown.

But for this crisis, the Fed has become the lender of first resort to a whole new group of financial institutions that are relying on the central bank to boost their profits.

Instead of lending only to firms that cannot find money elsewhere, the Fed apparently is lending to firms that can get the money elsewhere, yet at a higher cost than borrowing from the Fed. I say "apparently" because almost everything about the Fed's new primary dealer-lending facility is secret.

The New York Federal Reserve Bank, which runs the program, would not comment about who is borrowing or under what conditions they are borrowing. The only information that was from the Fed came Thursday in the weekly report on reserve balances, showing that the 20 primary dealers borrowed $28.8 billion on Wednesday and about $19 billion on Monday and Tuesday. See full story.

Three investment banks have announced publicly that they've borrowed from the Fed's new program, but none has provided any details about how much it has borrowed, for what purposes or under what conditions. See full story.

...more...

What the Fed is doing is illegal.

If our Congress does not stop this madness, we are so hosed.

:scared:

[Baby Snooks]

61. Reality

Our entire economic system is insolvent at this point and the only real thing backing it is the taxpayers who at some point will get hit.

Everything is "imaginary" money at this point if you trade. Like Monopoly money. Buy, sell, buy, sell. The only real cash is what the traders, called day traders, make when they sell and have transferred from their equity accounts into the checking accounts which are then deposited in insured CDs. With a little left over of course for the following day. The big boys and the big girls including Teresa Heinz Kerry also loan their money, also imaginary, every day at high interest rates the way others do including the Federal Reserve. The rich do get richer. Off the trades and the overnight "venture capital" interest.

At the end of the day, all you need to really do is look at the dollar. The reality is our dollar is worth 50 cents. That doesn't matter to the rich since quite a few of them put part of their money into eurodollars and other foreign currency and of course have more dollars now as they need them. It does matter to everyone else as they watch everything begin to increase in price as a result. As oil increases, everything else increases. Part of the increase in the price per barrel is due to market manipulation as well as actual concern over demand as well as depletion but part of the increase is also due to the devalued dollar.

The new America is indeed a two-class society. The PT Barnums and the suckers who fall for the "pot of gold" illusion offered by the PT Barnums. The PT Barnums end up with the pot of gold. Everyone else ends up with fools gold.

[Phred42]

66. .The Fed is just another parasitic dinosaur

. We have a choice:

Either make the Fed go extinct, or it will make Democracy go extinct

It's time to NATIONALIZE the Fed and take OUR money system back

[truedelphi]

75. The money is already gone.

Google "Crash of 2008" learn abt the 514 Trillion dollar derivative market. And associated risks. How does our economy,worth thirteen Trillion dollars and change each yr, handle such a thing?

When A New York banking firm, circa 2006, can control 40 billion dollars worth of real estate equity using only 30 million as collateral - well what does that indicate when the real estate market goes down? And that is just one pimple on the face of the small pox victim.

[Phred42]

121. Yep - and we are back to

Money As Debt for the back story.

[Joanne98]

67. Nationalize them!!!!!!!!!!

[ozone_man]

132. Place them under the U.S. Treasury.

The U.S. government is supposed to be the one who creates our money, not a private banking system.

http://www.monetary.org/

[dreyer]

73. Shell game since stolen election in 2000

The illegal regime has had to play this shell game from the start. It started illegally, so just based on that fact, a shadow system has been required. Any ray of light into this regime shows all kinds of crimes. From two stolen elections, illegal attack on Iraq (attention diverter), oil cartel profits, illegal spying on Americans, illegal firing of Attorneys, illegal torture centers (another diversion to promote American fear (if there are actual crimes why not just do it (prosecute) under the light of day???), it goes on and on. The only thing that catches up with this regime is (even with America quivering as planned) they are running out of stolen and loaned money (you can't fake beginning China and other countries for loans over and over again). If this country had any patriots this regime would have been toast from day one.

[Doctor_J]

78. Barney Frank was in on this?

That is discouraging.

[Enthusiast]

83. All this and just

All this and just watch George W Bush arrogantly strut around bragging how THEY have things under control. Don't worry be happy. If the Republicans had the slightest bit of humility this might be easier to swallow. The average American is as oblivious to the true state of the economy as can be. Those responsible for this mess should be held to account.

Once again, THEY control the media, and it's content, so no one will know who is responsible. Very convenient. If the Democrats take a single action it should to restore fairness in the media.

[pretzel4gore]

84. now i can die happy...

man, i waited for this day since nov7/1980 when a gibbering 1/2 wit named ronaldo reegan was, despite fact he was a rightwing boor 4rd rate fricking actor who peddled the arse in youngster days (male model) and was a rapist, was foisted on an electorate that stayed home, having convinced themselves that well being of the entire nation was ...given by god, aka the big white guy in the sky who is sexless, though he's clearly a man, a big fukkin man he still never indulges THAT, indeed hides from his own gonads, from THAT, which the big beard indicates are there, pulsating and so on, with the swinging dick....but nevermind that! God just IS, like teenagers' pimples etc! ....AND HE made the good times role, cuz we were...good people who deserved 'em, etc, and .... Whatever. Reegan won with only 37 percent of less then 1/2 the 1980 electorate, but pigmedia INSISTED it was a landslide, and the ship of fools left reality, on that day, nov 7/ 80 to the reedy cheers of the greedy fukks in 1st class and a buncha dopes in steerage, not to mention the loudmouth on the intercom- capt reegan, set sail for..thataway, they all yelled!...the rest of you, move on, nuttin to see here.
And it just went on and on and on!
It actually got more ridiculous as it went. The grasping fool reegan got shot by a vp bush family friend john hinckley (dat's entertainment, folks; warn't the brilliant texas surgeon handsome!) w/out anyone noticing the fix being in- hincley got sent to a psyche hospital after the jury was FORCED to find him insane, despite a preference for max security, and reegan got a couple years to reek havoc. Then KAL 007 was shot down in sept 1983; and again NO ONE NOTICED the plain sillinwess of saying a modern airliner just strays 300 miles off course over several hours w/out even the goddam russians noticing or saying anything, but reegan needed no opposition to the biggest spending increase in US history of taxmoney, on the military, thank you, and those 300 idiots on KAL 007 who died did so for a glorious cause, making amerka STRONGER, though our military already was a bloated bore which threatened us as much as anyone, but...move on, goddammit it, it's morning in merka! Foxnews time...
i watched it all and it was so obvious and the suffrocation of honest assessment went on year after year- reegan begat 4 long years of oldbush, a murdering thuggee who must stink to sensitive spirits, such as pope johnny paul deux ...a saintly punk who had the nerve to take john paul the first's name after the honest JP1 was butchered by tony soprano's boys(?)- but no one noticed, agin. Noway. With heads up asses, how COULD WE notice?
Bring on the apocalypse- we'll have all eternity in hell to beat the shit out of the nazipoohs and busheviks and soccer moms/dads who paid the mediawhores big money for the lies needed to swallow the whole thing. gulp it down, they did.

[nolabels]

127. An economy built on fairy dust by the authority of the establishment

The problems start happening when too many people want answers and there is too little fairy dust to go around. The collapse happens as a cascade effect, an overvalued and over-leveraged oligarch refuses to knuckle under. Things continue to go south and the once well oiled machine screeches to a halt. The collapse will happen mostly because of intransigent well to do people and by the time they decide they were wrong it will still be too late. It's a system built with greed with many intransigent flaws and destine for failure

[donkeyotay]

145. It's been the world's longest running nightmare, hasn't it?

You would think that after the lies told for this war, an analysis would be done and changes made to prevent it from happening again.

You would think that after the profiteering of this war, an investigation would be done and the profiteers prosecuted.

You would think that after the disaster of corporate/military media, reform would have been made so that voices of dissent could be heard.

You would think that after the fraudulent elections, reform to protect the voice of the citizens would be made.

You would think that after world-class Enronization of our economy, the religion of so-called free markets" would be in questioned, and there would be reform and investigations into crime.

You would think that after all the evidence that the rule of law has been destroyed in this country, there would be an outcry to undo what has been done.

You would think, but you'd be wrong. The media still sells amnesia and circuses. The politics still pretend that everything would be fine if only the Left would shut up. The economic crimes just need a little wallst-papering over. There's nothing wrong with the enormously bloated military industrial complex that killing a few more terrists can't cure, and nothing wrong with the CIA that overthrowing a few more governments can't fix. Honest to god, I thought that by now we'd get to the credits on this movie, but I believe we're going to get another sequel instead. The chances that this gets fixed in my lifetime are now zero.

[skepticscott]

89. Is it any surprise that terrorists have not hit us since 9/11?

Why should they? We're flushing ourselves and our country down the toilet in ways they couldn't have achieved with fifty 9/11s. They can just sit back and watch us destroy ourselves.

[depakid]

91. "A milestone in the deregulation effort...signed into law by President Bill Clinton"

Right wing enabler in the Democratic party shoulder every bit as much blame for this (and many other) debacles.

And holding them accountable- or better yet, getting them out of office is every bit as important as defeating Republicans.

[donkeyotay]

153. True dat. And while we're at it, let's hold American people accountable.

The people who bought into this rightwing crap, the people who shouted down those who protested, the people who profited from it, the people who loved having a simple patriotism handed to them, and most of all, the people who were too lazy to ask questions. Let's not leave them out by finding scapegoats like Hillary instead. She did not start the war all by herself. Bill didn't not become a liberal Republican president without considerable pressure from the public, the media and the corporate money needed in politics. In the immortal words of Pogo, " We have met the enemy, and he is us."

[David Zephyr]

93. Noam Chomsky: "Privatize the profits and socialize the risks." That's capitalism today.

Chomsky said it long, long ago.

[wordpix]

169. and he was right on

[ooglymoogly]

94. In my opinion the best thing that can happen to this country

is for an honest and strong dem like Obama and a strong smart congress to get elected and begin intense investigations and confiscation of the stolen loot and jail the looters; even if it means invading the offshore banking system and any country holding the stolen loot and that will be in the 10s of trillions. Only then can we regain our sovereignty and dignity and respect of the world. This country has been robbed blind by the * cartels and the richest sleaziest people in this country and outside. All the trillions that have been evaporating under question marks has gone somewhere and we need to track it down with intensive investigations rivaling the Manhattan project and we certainly have the tools to do it.

[Tansy_Gold]

102. There are no 10s of trillions

Hundreds of billions, maybe, but not 10s of trillions. IT'S NOT REAL MONEY.

from the original article:
"Today, the outstanding value of the (credit default) swaps stands at
more than $45.5 trillion, up from $900 billion in 2001." This is an increase in six-to-seven years of more than THREE TIMES the entire GDP of the United States. This is paper money, imaginary money. This is a $10 wooden chair (see my post #47 above) that passes through a bunch of suckers' hands and goes up in value until someone finally says, "Hey, it's just a $10 wooden chair."

The problem we have now, however, is that instead of the sucker who paid $3225 for the ten dollar chair just taking his lumps and going home poorer and sadder and wiser, he's demanding the government bail him out -- with OUR money. Also, in his case, he actually paid cash money for the chair; with the financial markets, it's all just figures on someone's computer. THERE'S NO REAL MONEY INVOLVED, but they want you to think there is, so they can get YOUR real money.

The REAL money is the tens and hundreds of billions that the hedge fund managers, the CEOs like Prince and O'Neal and Mozilo, the bankers and traders have suckered all of us out of. That's REAL money, earned by REAL people making REAL goods and services.

What we have to do is not just investigations, but we have to STOP the bail-outs. SO WHAT if a couple of hundred, maybe a couple of thousand, really really rich people lose everything they've got? Did they EARN it? Did they WORK for it, or did they just dream up a "derivative" that they then sold to unsuspecting suckers, who really did work and really did earn the money?

Aren't we always told not to "gamble" on the stock market unless the money we're gambling with is money we can afford to lose? Well, isn't that what these people did? If they couldn't afford to lose it, why were they gambling with it? Oh, it was someone else's money????!!!! Then shouldn't the Fed be bailing out the people whose money it was in the first place, and not these rich gamblers????

Also from the original article:
Bear Stearns held credit default swap contracts carrying an outstanding value of $2.5 trillion, analysts say. ("Analysts say. . . . ." TG says "Bullshit.)
“The rescue was absolutely all about counterparty risk. If Bear went under, everyone’s solvency was going to be thrown into question. There could have been a systematic run on counterparties in general,” said Meredith Whitney, a bank analyst at Oppenheimer. “It was 100 percent related to credit default swaps.”

Everyone's solvency SHOULD have been thrown into question. $2.5 trillion dollars is a lot of imaginary money, so much so that the $30 billion the Fed is throwing at JPMC to take over Bear Stearns is barely one per cent of that $2.5 trillion. Let me emphasize again: $30,000,000,000 is only a little more than ONE PER CENT of $2,500,000,000,000. How can anyone "make good" on the collapse of some "derivative" that's worth more than the entire Federal Reserve's reserve of some $700 billion????? Even that is less than one-third of Bear Stearns CDS exposure! And Bear Stearns is only 5% or so of the TOTAL CDS exposure!!!!!

Again, let them fall. Let the rich do without for a while. Let this "economy" get back to the business of making things that really exist, that real people can use, and forget this bullshit "derivatives" insanity. Another famous old saying: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't."


Tansy Gold, class warrior

[bluerum]

104. Well spoken, and I agree 200%. Mortgage backed securities = tulip debacle

Mortgage backed securities = tulip mania

[Tansy_Gold]

108. Your link didn't work, but I found this

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_17/b3678084.htm

It's a book review from 2000 of "Tulipomania: The story of the world's most coveted flower" and the speculative market in bulbs in 17th C. Holland. The review was published, of course, during the "dot com" bubble days, but the final paragraph is oddly prescient:

"Tulip mania differed in one crucial aspect from the dot-com craze that grips our attention today: Even at its height, the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, well-established in 1630, wouldn't touch tulips. ''The speculation in tulip bulbs always existed at the margins of Dutch economic life,'' Dash (author of "Tulipomania") writes. After the market crashed, a compromise was brokered that let most traders settle their debts for a fraction of their liability. The overall fallout on the Dutch economy was negligible. Will we say the same when Wall Street's current obsession finally runs its course?"

[bluerum]

111. Hmm. Worked for me. Sadly - I suspect the derivatives crash will be more damaging than tulipmania.

[formercia]

125. At least you can eat Tulips

The famous tale of the two black Tulips. The owner of the last two bulbs ate one of them to increase the value of the remaining bulb. Eventually it died and he was left with nothing.

[ooglymoogly]

115. Your post is immensely interesting and I agree with it almost 100%

I am talking about something entirely different though imo the banking crisis is an important player in our downfall and if it masks anything, it is that the country was on the brink before this one of many scandals attributed to these same people who have destroyed this country and who have exchaned the manopoly money for real money for it is us who will pay real money to bale these crooks out of this dilemma of their own making.
I am talking about the treasury which was very well stocked when * stole his way into office and the interest it would have accumulated in 7 years. I am talking about the money (real money) that is borrowed from China, Japan and other countries to fund the big shots behind this illegal war machine raking in billions every month, I am talking about the price of oil brought on by the very same people. I am talking about the war profiteers in Iraq like Haliburton et al. I am talking about the missing billions that have disappeared on their way to Iraq and other places and the billions we no nothing about. I am talking about Iraq's stolen oil and its interest. I am talking about the plunder of Iraq and its stolen treasury and treasures. I am talking about the immense and crooked tax breaks to the richest amongst us by the use of stolen elections and the interest on that inestimable amount of money. I am talking about giving away oil leases worth billions and perhaps in time trillions. I could go on and on: But perhaps you are right about the amounts I certainly have not calculated anything and it is only an assumption by guesstimate on what has been going on in this country and the mountain of things we know about and the things we do not even begin to know about. But you are right about the banking scandal and I am sure our downfall will erroneously be chalked up to the banking scandals. It is a great cover for the greatest theft in the history of man, much of which we have yet to learn; Yet I bow to your excellent post which has put the banking scandal into perspective.

[Tansy_Gold]

130. Much of the rest of the "money" is bogus too (long rant)

Many thanks for your compliments, oogly. And you're right -- I'm only looking (for the moment) at the financial markets scandal, not the potential for a broader economic collapse, which I also think is possible.

But as my subject line suggests, I think there is a lot of exaggeration in ALL the headlines, because so much of our thinking is now pegged to this funny money. It goes back to Enron, of course, and I think the general population has been effectively innoculated so we no longer have any reaction to repeats of that event. Enron was the biggest collapse to date, but then it was overshadowed by WorldCom (I think) and now no one even pays any attention.

There was an article posted, I think in today's Stock Market Watch thread, about the real extent of the financial markets' exposure in such derivatives (?) as "credit default swaps." While Bear Stearns was said to have $2.5 trillion in these, and there are supposedly $45 trillion outstanding, someone quoted in the article said these were somewhat inflated numbers. In other words, to go back to my $10 chair analogy: Just because one $10 wooden chair is sold to a sucker for $3225 doesn't make all $10 wooden chairs in my garage worth $3225.

Again, I could be wrong because I'm FAR from being an expert on this. I'm learning as I go, and I'm piecing things together as I read (about) them, but it seems to me that this whole derivatives thing is indeed, as Buffet said, a weapon of mass destruction. If I found out that my $10 wooden chair sold for $3225 and I have ten more sort of like it in my garage, WOW! I've got $32,250 in assets all of a sudden! So I go to the bank and I try to borrow $30,000 of real money based on the collateral of ten wooden chairs. Now, any sensible banker would tell me, "Are you nuts, lady?"

But it seems that this is exactly what happened in the financial markets. Someone got the brilliant idea to create these "derivative" assets. BUT THEY AREN'T ANYTHING TANGIBLE. At least with oil and gas and housing and food and even tulips, there was something tangible. Derivatives are, well, they're derived from something but they aren't "something" themselves.

I'm not sure how these credit default swaps work. Maybe I'm trying to oversimplify and maybe I'll get it all totally 110% wrong. But it sounds as if the "investment bankers" are just betting that someone else's investment is going to go bust, and then they talk (con) a third party into "insuring" that they won't lose on the bet! Worse, they're betting that other investors or investment banks or portfolios will FAIL! I mean, how healthy is it when our financial institutions are trying to make money of each other's failures!

(Someone in one of the other articles even pointed out that on these "swaps" someone wins but someone loses, too, so it all balances out in the end. Well, if that's so, why are we worried about all these banks collapsing? Are we (aka the Fed) trying to make sure EVERYBODY wins??? Then that's not betting!)

We already know many of the major commodity markets are manipulated -- oil, foodstuffs, precious metals, etc. We know that the giant corporations also manipulate regulation and pricing -- the U.S. auto industry's failure to innovate or cut emissions, etc. as one example. We know that the giant corporations manipulate labor -- and politics. I'm not sure how to slap $$$ values on some of those, so the "losses" could indeed be in the ten$ of trillion$ in real dollars.

But when the financial reporters start throwing around this $514 TRILLION in potential exposure from derivatives, I really think they're engaging in typical neo-fascist fear-mongering spin. IT'S NOT REAL MONEY.

A friend of mine from Chicago inherited a substantial sum of money in 2001 and bought a second home here in the Phoenix area. He paid about $300k cash for it. This was a beautiful new custom home in a very desirable area. In early 2006, he was offered $600k for the house but turned it down; he wasn't interested in selling at the time. Over the past two years, however, his property taxes have gone up BASED ON A $600K MARKET VALUE. Now he's decided to sell, or try to. And he's put a $650k price tag on the place, intending to get $600k. Unfortunately, real estate is taking a big hit here in the Phoenix area, and $600k homes in 2006 are now selling for $450k. My friend's angry response to having this pointed out to him: "My house is worth $600 thousand! I'm not taking a loss of a hundred and fifty grand just so some asshole can buy it cheap!"

It does no good to argue with him that if he sold it at $450k he'd still be MAKING $150k, not losing anything. He's got it in his head that the house is worth $600k and he's not going to budge.

How much this is like the credit default swaps that Bear Stearns has on its books for $2.5 trillion -- I don't know. Do they have these CDS's insured through some third party for $2.5 trillion, and that's how they come up with the figure? Or are they the insurer for someone else? What happens when we insure a house for more than its value? Well, the insurance company generally only pays what the house is worth, no matter what premiums you paid.

The whole tulip mania story does provide a valuable lesson, which is probably much, much clearer to us now, almost 400 years later, than it was to the Dutch of the 1630s. We get suckered in, "we" being anyone who has no resistance to the lure of quick big money. This is a vestige of a religious belief that wealth is a sign of God's favor, and more wealth is a sign of greater grace. It's also a part of a culture that values the individual over the community, that lionizes "the self-made man" and "the rugged individualist." We see this in the mystique of John McCain, the "maverick," the "independent." Never mind that he is neither a maverick nor an independent; the label is enough to sustain the cult.

But this is the nature of "capitalism," in which capital -- meaning, money in excess of what one needs to get by -- carries more value in the society than some people. This is what allows us as a society to enter into unjust, fraudulent wars and kill hundreds of thousands of undervalued people in order to get the "capital" sitting under the sands of Iraq. The oil companies, the defense contractors, the Blackwaters and Dyncorps -- they are all far, far more important to "capitalism" than mere human beings. The ONLY human beings who are "worthy" in this kind of society are the wealthy, because they bear the mark of God's approval. I say -- BULLSHIT.


But then I am only


Tansy Gold

[kitfalbo]

95. Hmmm

And everyone told me it was *MY* fault for not spending enough.

[mnhtnbb]

100. Hubby and I are on our way to Panama tomorrow to finalize our decision

about owning property there to which we can retire. We first looked in 2005 as an escape hatch after
the stolen election of 2004, and now it looks like we might actually reside there before too long.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

101. The rich have finally been able to steal the Social Security trust fund by bankrupting our future.

I guess we will have to kiss Medicare goodbye too, after they get through looting the US Treasury. Fuck the ruling class and their bail-outs of the predator greedy rich. Time for the ongoing class warfare to cost someone besides the working class.

[ooglymoogly]

119. Bingo

when they leave office there will be not a farthing left, not even under the rug...they will leave office gleefully knowing there can be no programs whatsoever. The diminished income of this country will have to go to pay the interest of the huge credit card bill they have left us. The greatest theft in the history of man.

[AlphaCentauri]

120. the welfare state at work n/t

[eilen]

135. The first rule about Fight Club is

we don't talk about Fight Club.

[kdenninger]

107. This "Bailout" is ILLEGAL folks

See the following:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/2008/03/articles-of-impeachment-bear-stearns.html

I have set up a PETITION to IMPEACH President Bush.

Why? Because he and Paulson conspired to break the law.

The Federal Reserve Act does not authorize the kind of "PUT" that was placed into this transaction by The Fed.

Its illegal folks.

And now, you can sound off on what CONGRESS should do about it.

On my dime.

[durablend]

124. What Congress will do?

Absolutely nothing.

Oh, you thought different? :sarcasm:

[Tansy_Gold]

136. I went to your website

May I quote you?

<snip>
Now, the question is, do our Congressfolk have the necessary will to stop this raiding of the public treasury for the enrichment of a private firm - if necessary, by bringing the above article of impeachment?

If you think they should, then I have a solution for you.

SIGN THE PETITION

to Congress for the purpose of raising debate on this exact issue and stop the mockery of our legal and regulatory systems.

PS: I'm a lifelong registered Republican, voted for George W. Bush twice, and have one of Gingrich's "Speaker's Gavels" on the credenza behind my desk, so before you go accusing me of being a "leftwing nutjob", think again. Nonetheless, what's right is right and I must stand for what's just, and when the political party I am a member of does something wrong, they must admit to it and face the consequences. Sorry Mr. President; I like you a great deal, but what happened here was, in my opinion, blatantly unlawful. The $30 billion "backstop" must be rescinded until and unless Congress explicitly authorizes that act through legislation and you sign same.

<end snip>

It is against the DU rules to call a poster a troll, a mole, or anything else, but I would put before my DU comrades /sic/ the notion that when a person admits -- one could daresay proudly admits -- having supported a nefarious regime for seven of its seven years, then that person and his/her motives must be suspect.

You and your cronies have benefited enormously, Mr. Genesis/kdenninger, from the very spinelessness of the past four Congresses. You have watched as Congress, under GOP "leadership" and Dem timidity, have gutted bankruptcy protection for ordinary Americans to the benefit of the banks and finance companies and hospital corporations. You have watched gleefully as your commander in chief led us into a horrible, pointless (but not profitless!) war that has destroyed our good name and made our country despised around the world. You have watched in tacit approval of No Child Left Behind that has left thousands behind. You have watched our infrastructure literally disintegrate before our eyes.

And now, all of a sudden, you cry "Foul!" Excuse me?? EXCUSE ME????? Your boy has done something you don't like, so you're all up in arms (Apologies to the REAL "UpInArms") over his misstep? You have no problems, though, with any of his others? No problem with all those "signing statements?" No problem with the de facto pardon of Scooter Libby, who destroyed a valuable national asset? No problem with no-bid defense contracts, no problem with "faith-based" abstinence education, no problem with anti-science scientists, no problems with those pesky missing WMDs? No problem with predatory lending? No problem with mountain-top removal coal mining? No problem with logging in national forests? No problem with ANWR drilling? No problem with. . . anything else?

I'm all for welcoming into the light those who have lived in conservative darkness. I do believe people can see the error of their ways and embrace a different philosophy. I was once a registered Republican myself. But I see no conversion on your part, only a plea that we who have suffered under the regime you supported should now suddenly sign your "petition."

Do you really think the spineless Congress under which you and yours have prospered will suddenly listen to you? Do you think they will suddenly listen to us because now we sign YOUR petition?

I don't fucking think so.


Tansy Gold, well aware that this post could be pulled

[magellan]

167. Had to check out what you'd written

It's nice to know I'm not the only one offended by this guy. You said everything I was thinking!

[magellan]

163. What gall

You confess on your site to voting for the Commander-in-Thief twice and liking him "a great deal", and yet you come here asking us "leftwing nutjobs" to sign an impeachment petition because this matter has upset you?

Buddy, I have several choice words for your sudden concern about Bush**'s illegal actions, but I'll sum up in one:

So?

[Tansy_Gold]

165. Why can't I be that succinct?

My hat's off to you, magellan!

:thumbsup:

[magellan]

166. I am WHITE HOT over his nerve

It's the stench of a superiority complex permeating his request. He doesn't even try to conceal his position or how he feels about us; he just saunters in expecting that he and his petition will be welcomed.

Flowers and candy, the master has graced us with his presence!

Well, he'd better get used to a new kind of liberal. No "Kum Ba Yah" from me.

[donheld]

123. K & R

[workinclasszero]

126. Isn't unregulated capitalism great?

A person, or country, that fails to learn from history is doomed to repeat it, endlessly.

1929...2008??

[Amonester]

137. more like... 1929...2009

they R "trying" to "delay" "it" as much as they possibly can (in case mc$ame isn't $elected by their big-corp communist com'Rads)

[natrat]

129. strange, even liberals defend the fed and have no clue that is just a tool for big money interests

"The really astute financial observer would notice, along in here somewhere, that the newest game by the central banksters is to buy up (*by holding as 'security') bad loans to get a little control their multiple (naughty) children banks. In fact, I'd argue with the Fed taking (*pretty much anything) as loan security, and this morning's report that the "Bank of England may join securities buy-up plan" that what's going on at a global scale is one of the most important precursors to one-world government. A single universal bank. Seems to me that's what's coming, although by fits and starts.

---

I may still be suffering the consequences of too much spaghetti and gin last night, and a rematch with the spaghetti for breakfast, but it sort of makes sense. In order for a New World Order to really own everything on earth, all these disparate little banks around are a terrible nuisance. Let's just buy them up, setting off a portfolio-saving inflation along the way, and centralize control! Hey - makes perfect sense, right? We'll make an almost unnavigable set of rules, force everyone to clear through a clearinghouse the same way, and then gradually let the markets forces drive everything into the hands of the few (the rich).

---

OK, so it may turn out to be a little slower than One Worlders would like, but nevertheless, the concentration/consolidation (*and shotgun marriages orchestrated by regulators) seem to be the fad of the year in financial circles. About all we can do is watch."

http://urbansurvival.com/week.htm

[Tansy_Gold]

133. potential weakness in the "one world govt" notion

While I am :tinfoilhat: enough to think there are powers attempting this even as we speak, I don't think they'll ultimately succeed. Two words: Iraq insurgency.

There are too many people on the planet with too many differing notions of how they want to live and form their societies. Even major financial manipulation can't control that. At some point -- we may not have reached that point here in the US . . . yet -- the masses do rise up. Being in the majority, they have the power of numbers and the power of passion. Think Viet Cong. Think Palestinians. And a few other examples that shall go unnamed.

We have allowed ourselves to become accustomed to a cash/credit economy, but that doesn't mean other forms of exchange are no longer operative. While they may not work on a large scale, the collapse of a central cash/credit infrastructure may leave only small scale economy viable.


Just a thought from


Tansy Gold

[eilen]

138. Do we want to live like insurgents, Viet Cong, and Palestinians?

Basically like despised outlaws-- I guess that will be the price for not assimilating, for not sticking out your neck for the iron cuff. Those farmers caught between the Taliban and the US/Afghan army?

I'm reading this book that is apocalyptic in theme. No electric, no guns, no internal combustion engine. Money is worthless. The only people that eat are farmers or those who live off farmers. Different agrarian societies develop. Some of them feudalistic in nature, others more collective. Sought after skills: smithing, coopering, woodworking, farming, nurses, doctors, accountants, engineers, animal husbandry and veternarians, building trades --carpenters, masons, (except electricians), weaving, sewing, oh, and archers, swordsmiths, etc. Valuable items to have on hand: pre-industrialized farm tools and implements, draft animals, horses, chickens, bows, arrows, anything sharp as well as hardware and tools, medicine, antibiotics, books on how to do stuff manually, heavy kettles, woodburning stoves, treadle machines, manual typewriters, bicycles and spare tires/equipment, wagons, horse tack, canned food and canning supplies, etc.

I don't believe that things will get to that extent but if there are forced foreclosures, people permanently displaced like they have been since Katrina, you will end up with camps, ghettos where people can be more easily controlled. I think it is better to go somewhere else, not places where the government would like you to go-- find the deserted areas and organize (like the rust belt). That involves people working together and helping each other out beyond the crisis which requires us to get out of our little self involved bubbles. A hard thing to do when you're not brought up that way.

[Tansy_Gold]

157. No, no one WANTS to live like that

I'm sure the Palestinians and the Iraqis would dearly love to live in peace and prosperity and not in mortal fear every second of being blown up or shoved out of their homes, etc., etc., etc. I only used that as part of the reason why I don't think a "one world government" would ever be fully successful. There aren't enough military troops, not even mercenaries, to pull it off.

But I do think there is a very real possibility that a dramatic change to what we think of as "the American lifestyle" may be in the very near future. Near as in months to a couple of years -- UNLESS major, major, major changes are instituted. Those changes would have as dramatic effect on the lifestyles of the uber wealthy (top 1%) as the result of NOT changing would have on the rest of us. I'm not calling for annihilation of the wealthy, just an equitable redistribution of their wealth.

The options, of course, are living as an assimilated slave or self-destruction. There are sufficient examples of this throughout history -- or to work really, really, really hard to prevent what sometimes seems like an inevitable collapse.



Tansy Gold, who has many of your suggested survival items on hand

[eilen]

159. I don't think they will give up anything without a fight (the wealthy)

and if you think about it, it is mostly imaginary, digital figures on a printout. It is power. Our process/rights are undermined and twisted by manipulations of power/money and the weakness of those we have put (or who have been engineered) into power.

The "suggested survival items" -- that is just from a novel I have been engrossed in called _Dies the Fire_ by S.M. Stirling.

[wordpix]

170. the wealthy think they're earned their wealth. But most of us could work night and day without rest

for decades and still not make the millions of a Wall St CEO in a few months.

[ooglymoogly]

144. On a more primitive level....what is happening now happened in

1929 and the roaring 20's, orchestrated by swindlers Morgan, Mellon, Roket-feller and a few other vicious crooks who then bought up all the countries assets at 10 cents on the dollar and created the "fed" a privately owned swindling cartel.

[truedelphi]

155. Slight correction here - the swindlers created the "Fed" first, a full

Sixteen years before the crash.

The main reason given for creating the "fed" was to avoid bank panics. Funny thing, though, the Mother of All Depressions occurred less than two decades later!!

[ooglymoogly]

161. Yes of course you are right and I kick myself

because I know this...I should have inserted the words "who had". My understanding and recollection of the reading was that it was Coolidge and relatively not so much Hoover (who had only been in power for one year), both however contributing to the chaos mounting up to the great depression by the damning power of deregulation. But it was Coolidge who was the 100% Lase fare capitalist who supported an all powerful and unregulated central bank and and the powerful bankers who owned it and presided over the unregulated, drunken madness, of the roaring 20's. But it was the owners of the misleadingly named "FED" who began rumors of a banking collapse and imo was the coup de grace that began the visible fall in 1920 and ultimately was the catalyst for the great depression of the 30's.

[truedelphi]

171. Good to run into you again Moog!

:toast:

[ooglymoogly]

174. thanx truedelphi ; moog; I like it

I am in the process of naming a new pup and think I will use that for my dogs name.

[truedelphi]

181. You can call me "Delph" any time!

Glad I wasn't overly familiar.... What type of little puppy?? (Feel free to PM pictures!)

[ooglymoogly]

185. She is the cutest Yorky I have ever seen

she gets into everything and shreds every bit of paper she can find, including the mail. Right now she is sleeping on the back of my recliner as I type with her head draped over my head like a vulcher. She already has me trained. On a different note, I have traveled all over Greece including Mt. Olympus and Mt Parnassis and the oracle of Delphi and lived in Athens for a couple of years. My favorite haunt was Mykonos. From what reference if any does your screen name derive.

[truedelphi]

186. A local yet unfamous oracle lives in a cave beneath my house

hence the user ID.

But right now I am more excited abt your pet.

What's his/her name??

[6th Borough]

160. massive speculation Miami real estate...

was an other common thread, albeit minor. The analogy holds, however, if you view the financial ruin visited upon both the city of Miami and those who financed (and gambled on the land values) its late 20's crash as a mirrored image of the real estate market nationwide today.

[earth mom]

154. K & R!

:grr:

[6th Borough]

158. Look for more rate cuts, the greenback is still worth too much...

...cover these defaults. The only way these "investment banks" (and what, pray tell, do they actually invest in?) can hope to cover such liabilities is if the American dollar becomes the 1930's Reichsmark of the 21st century.

[ooglymoogly]

162. What better way to destroy ss, pensions and all non capitalist friendly

programs. A SS check will be worthless as well as pensions and the wellbeing of everyone but the very rich. We have been had royally and smirky must be real proud.

[Megahurtz]

180. Wow.

[superconnected]

183. Republican Politics, aided by republican voter stupidity putting crooks in.