Gun was being stowed, pilot tells police-Handgun went off inside cockpit of US Airways jet in flight

[RamboLiberal]

Source: MSNBC/AP

A US Airways pilot whose gun fired inside a cockpit said he was trying to stow the weapon as the crew got ready to land, according to a police report released Wednesday.

The pilot didn't tell air traffic control about the shooting or say the bullet had punctured the cockpit until after the plane landed safely at Charlotte-Douglas International Airport on Saturday, the report said. Photos obtained by The Associated Press show a small exit hole on the plane's exterior below the cockpit window.

US Airways Tower Supervisor Nathan Gundlach told police that when he arrived the pilot was on the phone with the Transportation Security Administration. Gundlach contacted US Airways about the in-flight shooting, but police were not notified until an hour later.

"When I questioned Mr. Gundlach about the delay in airport police being notified, Mr. Gundlach apologized and took full responsibility," an airport police officer wrote in the report.

The Federal Aviation Administration also wasn't told immediately about the incident.


Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23819887/

---

The more I read about this the more I suspected that this was exactly what happened.

[babylonsister]

1. Why was it (un)locked and loaded? What if that had happened in

mid-air? OOPS? What if he had punctured the fuselage at over 20,000 feet, or his gun had been carelessly aimed at the fuel tank? What if we were trying to figure out why a plane fell out of the sky?

[RamboLiberal]

2. They are required to carry them in a holster while in flight

Being locked away would do them no good during a hijacking.

I believe from what I've read after this incident that outside of the cockpit then the gun is required to be in a locked container.

When I read they were on landing approach I thought he might have been taking it from the holster to put in the locked container.

[babylonsister]

3. Sounds reasonable, but the fact that the gun went off doesn't. . nt

[CreekDog]

31. why was the gun cocked?

:banghead:

[RamboLiberal]

34. Most Semi Autos don't have to be cocked

Your probably thinking of the 1911 which many carry "cocked and locked". Most modern-day semi autos don't have to be cocked.

Some have double action triggers on first shot and single action on subsequent shots(hammer is cocked).

Some are DAO or double action only. A lot of police agencies specify this for safety reasons.

Others like Glocks, S&W M&P, have same trigger pull each shot - no hammer.

[CreekDog]

35. what a relief!

it would be much harder to kill people without these innovations! :eyes:

[selador]

10. what

if you realized that a bullet hole puncturing the fuselage and THUS causing serious depressurization is a myth that started in the movie goldfinger.

iow, it's science FICTION

read up on it. the chances of a bullet hole that "punctures the fuselage" causing any sort of catastrophe like you see in the movies is VERY VERY small (in re: depressurization)

there are concenrs with a bullet piercing vital equipment, though.

significantly reduced (to near zero) if a round like the glaser safety slug was used.

[Ian David]

13. They also busted that myth on Mythbusters. n/t

[trof]

14. Yep, takes a BIG hole for explosive decompression.

Without getting too technical...
Cabin is pressurized by fairly constant flow of air bled from engine compressors. Pressure is regulated by opening and closing of fuselage outflow valves. The whole system is pretty much automatic.

On some of our older airplanes (at TWA) I had problems with leaking door seals. No danger of depressurizing, but the whistle/squeal was annoying (and frightening) passengers. We could feel the draft where the seal was leaking and stuffed the crack with wet paper towels. Problem solved.

Bigger danger with gunshot would be damaging some piece of electronic or navigation equipment.

I was never in favor of guns in the cockpit, and this is why.

[CreekDog]

33. not just equipment, but someone could get shot

:dunce:

[stlsaxman]

16. Wasn't a whole window blown out in Goldfinger?

just saying that it made it more feasible in the movie that so that the plane should decompress like that.

I'll have to trace it on youtube but now that i think of it, it may not have been a window...

[michreject]

25. Shooting a fuel tank full of fuel

will not cause an explosion either. It needs an igniter.

[BearSquirrel2]

36. Mythbusters also hit on this ...

They tested jet fuel, kerosene and gasoline to see which one would most likely create a "fire trail". The jet fuel and kerosene would not even burn when exposed to flame. They had to be pressurized. Gasoline however, burned quite quickly.


Of course, in another myth, they tried to ignite a gas canister with a fired shot. They couldn't do it until they used incendiary rounds and even then it was hard to do. It's the vapor that catches spark, not the liquid fuel. Hence the carburettor.

[CreekDog]

32. also dangers with a bullet piercing vital human equipment

:eyes:

[benEzra]

26. Nothing.

What if he had punctured the fuselage at over 20,000 feet, or his gun had been carelessly aimed at the fuel tank?

Absolutely nothing. There would have been a whistling noise from some air escaping through the 0.36-inch hole, but no loss in cabin pressure whatsoever.

There are no fuel tanks in front of the pilots, and the rear of the cockpit is now a bulletproof barrier.

[Rick Myers]

4. The gun was stowed?

WTF does that mean. He put a hole in the frigging airframe!!!!!

I own guns, but I don't think everyone shold be packing at the mall!!!

Oh, the pilot just shot a hole in the cockpit, please have a free cocktail on us...

on edit: The only way a weapon in a holster would go off would be operator error!

[RamboLiberal]

6. He had to have taken it out of the holster most likely

and was transferring it to a lockable storage box. He probably had the safety off. Got finger in trigger. Boom.

[CTyankee]

29. Can I get a free glass of Prosecco?

After all, if you are going to risk my freaking life, I should get a lovely glass of this Italian sparkling wine, don't you think, dear?

[Donnachaidh]

5. Even if he was required to keep a gun on board - does this twinkie NOT

know how to put the safety on?

Just what they need, a pilot who doesn't know how to handle safety features.... :silly:

[Fedja]

7. He's a pilot

a civilian pilot, at that. I know tons of people who don't care to know about gun safety switches.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

15. Probably a Glock

Three safeties, none of them very useful. Accidentally hit the trigger and it'll go off.

Stupid design.

Even if the gun had a "real" safety, some can get knocked "off" pretty easily.

This pilot was just careless.

[sergeiAK]

17. They carry HKs, IIRC

Air Marshals and armed pilots carry some form of the HK USP in .40 or .357 Sig, IIRC. A pistol graced with a manual safety and the heaviest trigger pull known to man, and somehow this idiot manages to fire it unintentionally.

Like most aircraft accidents, pilot error is to blame.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

18. I didn't know they had standards, thanks.

Yes, the pilot had to go further into "stupidity" to screw up like that.

"Idiot Proof"? Hold my beer and watch this!!!

[RamboLiberal]

22. I'm not as familar with HK

More familiar with Sigs, Glocks, S&W M&P. But doesn't the HK have a decocking lever like the Sigs? I was wondering if he might have forgetten to decock after chambering a round and putting in the holster. Then you'd have a lighter SA trigger pull?

To decock was something I always had to remind myself to do with the Sig before putting it in holster.

[sergeiAK]

23. I believe they do

However, it's been a while since I shot a USP (and I have no desire to ever again). The trigger sucks, the safety is awkward to use at best, and, while accurate, I was much more impressed with the CZ75 at half the cost.

[CTyankee]

30. Aw, well in that case, so what? No problem, right?

Uh, no...

[michreject]

24. Not all guns have external safties

Most striker fired weapons do not. Most common one is Glock.

[ConcernedCanuk]

8. Airways Tower Supervisor Nathan Gundlach

.
.
.

Now ain't that weird?

Nathan Gundlach

It just sorta jumped out at me

[RamboLiberal]

9. According to what I've been reading

The gun is to stay in the holster till plane parked at gate. So he violated that rule. Looks like he was trying to get an early start to procedures he had to do before deplaning.

I also was wondering if he may have been trying to unload it before stowage. Now way I've been taught to unload a pistol is. This is competition rules to ensure safety of everyone on a range.

1. Remove magazine.
2. Rack slide to remove round in chamber and also visually check that round was ejected.
3. Pull trigger while gun pointed in safe direction to make sure gun is safe.

Of course this is procedure on a range. You don't want to do last step if there's something in front of you you'd rather not put a hole in. But it did make me wonder if he was trying to make the gun safe as he was taught on the range but he screwed up and reversed steps 1 and 2. I did that once when I first started competition shooting. I will never forget that lesson but I was on a range and the gun was pointed down range when I had that brain fart.

BTW there are some firearms with a magazine disconnect. In fact California is requiring it. What this means is gun will not fire unless there is a magazine in the gun even if round in chamber. And some police agencies require it for officer safety. Pain in the butt for competition shooters since you gotta carry an empty mag to do last step of Unload & Show Clear which is trigger pull.

[Thepricebreaker]

11. WOW Huge news... NOT..

[Algorem]

12. having your gun go off when you're trying to stow it in the cockpit.

messy situation.

[DemoTex]

19. A friend who is an Airbus captain and FFDO for the same airline called me yesterday with the 4-1-1.

Seems that the weapon was un-holstered in-flight, against FFDO (Federal Flight Deck Officer) procedures. The crew was on the arrival routing into CLT at 8000-feet. The captain was trying to stow his gear, including the handgun, when it discharged. So, not only did he violate the FFDO procedures, but he technically violated the FAR-121 "sterile cockpit rule" (essential conversation and action only below 10,000-feet) and his airline's Flight Operations Manual. More seriously, he is in violation of FAR Part 91 (Careless/Dangerous and Reckless operation).

The captain involved has been removed from the FFDO program, permanently. He has been removed from the airline's flight schedule, which doesn't really mean anything. My guess is that the airline will give him some time off without pay (a month or two). The FAA is a different story, however. If they decide to pursue a Dangerous & Reckless violation, the pilot could have his license revoked .. ending his career.

[slackmaster]

20. I question the wisdom of stowing a firearm on a plane with a round in the chamber

Condition 3 (loaded magazine, empty chamber) would be a lot safer IMO.

[RamboLiberal]

21. Makes no sense to carry in Condition 3 as protection against

hijackers. They could be on him before he would get gun unholstered, chambered a round and was ready to fire. As DemoTex said he broke the rule by unholstering in flight. That gun was perfectly safe in the holster.

[Xithras]

27. Hardened cockpit doors.

If the flight crew is securing the door properly, anyone carrying should have more than enough time to pull the slide and get fire ready. Takes me about 3/4ths of a second when I'm NOT in a hurry. While not foolproof, those doors should buy the flight crew several seconds at a bare minimum.

Personally, I believe they should be carried Condition 4. And they should have Glasers.

[RamboLiberal]

28. Yeah but what if one barges his way in as one of flight crew

is coming in? Say one of the pilots after using the lavatory, or FA bringing in meal or coffee. And also easy in a panic situation to have brain fart and forget you have to rack the slide.

I don't believe in carrying in condition 3 or 4.

[beevul]

37. Gunshot possibly triggered by safety lock

Source: WCNC - NC NBC

Gunshot possibly triggered by safety lock 6:40 PM

06:40 PM EDT on Thursday, March 27, 2008

By MARK BOONE / WCNC
E-mail Mark: [e-mail]

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The gunfire that sent a bullet through the cockpit wall of a US Airways jet over Charlotte was likely triggered by a safety device pilots are required to use when storing their weapons, a firearms instructor said Thursday.

“It’s insane,” Heubl said. “I don’t think that there’s a firearms instructor anywhere that would accept this as a safety device.”

The holster can become misaligned with the gun, allowing for the lock to be placed over the trigger, he said.

Heubl first warned of the holster and lock design in a December 2007 entry on his blog. He said the lock replaced a 22-pound vault, which pilots had been carrying on board planes to store their weapons.



Read more: http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/stories/wcnc-032708-al-gun_pilot.7700ec9.html

---

It will be interesting to see what else comes to light as more information becomes available.

[beevul]

38. Faulty rules blamed for gun's firing - WA times....

Faulty rules blamed for gun's firing
By Audrey Hudson
March 28, 2008

Inadequate handgun rules designed by Department of Homeland Security officials are to blame for last weekend's accidental discharge of a pistol by a commercial pilot during landing preparations, a pilots association said yesterday.

"The pilot has to take his gun off and lock it up before he leaves the cockpit, so he was trying to secure the gun in preparation for landing, while he was trying to fly the airplane, too," said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. "In the process of doing that, the padlock that is required to be inserted into the holster pulled the trigger and caused the gun to discharge."

APSA, an organization of pilots who lobby Congress on aviation security issues, said the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has refused to adopt standard carriage rules recommended last year by the Federal Air Marshal Service.


"We complained to DHS two years ago that this was an unsafe rule," Mr. Mackett said.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/NATION/927995814


I found this no more than 2 minutes after I posted the OP. Despite the misleading title, this seems to be a confirmation of sorts of what the first news article said.

[ColbertWatcher]

39. Trigger lock? Bull.

The shot was due to several factors:
1. the gun was loaded
2. the owner of the gun was not careful with it

Just because the NRA PR Machine says it was a trigger lock, doesn't mean it was a trigger lock.

[krispos42]

40. Oh, God, a FULL 22 lbs?

Man, I can see why the TSA wanted a switch! Those extra 22 pounds might throw that whole freaking 300,000-pound plane off balance!

[Earth_First]

42. "Excuse me sir, we're going to have to ask you to relocate your seat to balance the aircraft"

"...the gun safe in the cockpit is setting off the load balance."

[darue]

41. uh... why was the safety off?

it couldn't possibly be the fault of the person who's job it was to make sure to NOT fire it. and speaking of SAFETY locks.... my understanding is that guns have things called SAFETY switches which, when turned ON, prevent the trigger from being pulled. The holster padlock couldn't have pulled the trigger if the guns safety had been on right? Isn't that the whole point of having safety switches on handguns?

[DRoseDARs]

45. Why was the gun loaded? I've had it drilled in my head you don't load unless you're about to shoot.

eom

[cullen2382]

46. Why would it be unloaded?

Ummm....what's the point of a gun if it's not loaded? For someone that's carrying it for protection (of themselves and others) having it unloaded would be pretty stupid. Um, excuse me mr. criminal, could you wait just a second while I load my gun? Thank you.

[depakid]

49. Loaded doesn't mean having a chambered round

especially on a passenger plane.

[DRoseDARs]

50. This is a gun, in the cockpit, whose door should be locked, and any commotion outside would give...

...more than enough time for even the slow-witted to load a gun. :eyes:

[MaryCeleste]

54. For the same reason a cops gun is loaded

[DRoseDARs]

63. Cops are law enforcement agents who are expected to enter dangerous situations, pilots are not.

Pilots get to hide behind locked doors, cops do not.

[Ganja Ninja]

52. A lot of the newer guns don't have external safeties.

They have internal safeties that are released by the action of pulling the trigger. Only an idiot would try to put a lock on one of these while it still has a round in the chamber.

[MaryCeleste]

55. A lot?

I assume you mean semi-auto pistols. Which ones are you talking about other than Glock?

[sergeiAK]

56. Sig Sauer, Springfield XD, etc. -nt

[krispos42]

57. The HK USP has a decock-only configuration...

as do many Ruger semi-autos. Beretta has an option for their Model 92s and 96s as well.

IMO if a semi-auto has a trigger-linked firing pin lock, so that a sudden shock to the pistol can't set off a cartridge, then a seperate safety is unnecessary. A deocker is good if the pistol is a true double-action pistol (not a partially-cocked system like in a Glock), but a separate safety is not.

[Ganja Ninja]

60. I believe the HK USP is sold in 4 different configurations.

Some with external safeties and some without.

[krispos42]

62. Ha! Try nine, IIRC

Between single action, double-action, double-action-only, two kinds of safety-decocker (one allows cocked-and-locked, one doesn't), and a decocker-only version, the number's up there!

HK has a chart in their sales literature that details all the combinations. And they say that a gunsmith can convert one varient to another simply by changing a few parts of the lockwork.

Heckler & Koch: Putting the "universal" in USP, dammit! :-)

[Ganja Ninja]

61. Most of the polymer frame guns sold today are.

Glock, Kel Tec, Taurus, Walther Smith & Wesson a couple of CZ models. So many it's hard to remember them all.

[Drum]

43. Guns don't kill people, safety devices kill people.

Geez, I thought everybody knew.

:sarcasm:

[skyounkin]

44. Bullshit!

Guns fire because some jackass was fucking off and pulled the trigger!

Did they test the pilots hands for gun power residue? No? Why not?!

This was a crime! A mis-fired weapon is a crime!!

Ohhhhhhh- I knew this was gonna happen as soon as that stupid law was past- the only thing I want a pilot doing during a crisis on a flying airplane is flying the godamm plane!! Not John Waynig through the cockpit trying to get the terra'ists.

Excuse my language........

This just chaps my ass.
:grr:

[greiner3]

47. Lol;

This post is a 'honeypot' for freepers!

[RC]

48. So far no one has ask...

Why was the gun cocked? This was not a double action revolver as I understand it.
Also as I understand slide action hand guns, you must cock them before firing the first round. Am I correct or not?

[sergeiAK]

53. There are double action semi-autos

Which, given that Air Marshals carry HKs, is likely the case here.

Dumbass pilot either pulled the trigger, or tried to put a trigger lock on a loaded pistol with a round chambered. Either way, it was pilot error.

[krispos42]

58. Many aren't like that any more

Many of them, called "traditional double action" auto pistols, can be fired with the hammer down, just like a police revolver. After the first shot, the gun automatically recocks itself for subsequent shots. The first shot, against the lowered hammer, takes a long, heavy trigger pull, then the rest of the shots using the cocked hammer take s short, light trigger pull.

Many others, like the popular Glock pistol, have a "partially-cocked" system where each time the gun is fired the firing pin (no external hammer) is partially cocked. Not enough so that an accidental firing pin release will set off a round, but enough to make the trigger pretty light and short. And consistant, because the trigger pull is the same for every single round.

Guns like the popular .45 auto need to be cocked, though, and are usually carried "cocked-and-locked", hammer cocked with the safety on.

[Ganja Ninja]

51. Who puts a lock on a loaded gun?

Only an idiot that doesn't know how to safely handle firearms that's who. Especially on a H&K that has no manual safety but instead has an internal safety that is released by the action of pulling the trigger. I guarantee that if you read the instructions that come with a trigger lock it will warn you to make sure the gun isn't loaded before putting it on.

[RamboLiberal]

59. Looks like the dumbasses in TSA decided

to use a lock that is inserted through a hole in the holster. And looks like they were warned this was an accident waiting to happen - which it did. Pilot though was not supposed to be storing his gun while in flight.

Modern holsters hold the gun in tight since they are molded to the model of the gun. I could hold my holster upside down and the firearm wouldn't fall out. They should have a lightweight locking box they put the gun in the holster in. Not the 22 lb box and not a lock through the holster-DUMB!

I have heard of devices in holsters causing a gun to fire. In fact one holster that has a retention device so a gun couldn't be snatched from the holster by a bad guy had to be recalled for Glock models because there was a danger of accidental discharge.

I can believe a lock being inserted in a holster if trigger is in wrong position could cause this.

40 cal - man that had to be loud. Wonder if either of these guys had brown or green stained pants!

On edit - the rig in question.



CHARLOTTE, N.C.—It was only a matter of time before there’d be an accidental, non-negligent discharge of a Federal Flight Deck Officer’s weapon. Saturday a U.S. Airways pilot’s gun discharged on Flight 1536, which left Denver at approximately 6:45am and arrived in Charlotte at approximately 11:51am. The Airbus A319 plane landed safely and thankfully none of the flight’s 124 passengers or five crew members was injured

The insane procedures required by the TSA demands that our pilots to lock and then un-lock their .40 side arms was and is a solid recipe for disaster. Did the TSA deliberately create this bizarre and unconventional Rube Goldberg firearm retention system hoping for this result? The sordid history of the FAA and TSA’s total resistance to the concept of arming pilots to protect Americans is in itself a scandal.

Putting a gun into a holster and then threading a padlock through the trigger and trigger-guard is required every time the pilots enter or leave the cockpit. This kind of silliness has never been forced on any law enforcement or security officers anywhere in the world until now. Before this holster padlock procedure pilots with guns were forced to carry them around in a cumbersome 22 pound vault. The vault caused problems in the confined space of most cockpits.

FFDO pilots need to carry their side arms in conventional concealed holsters and there is no reason for the unnecessary handling of their firearms in the cockpits.

http://www.crimefilenews.com/2008/03/gun-accident-in-airliner-cockpit-was.html

[Voltaire99]

64. This Dr. Strangelove moment brought to you by...

Cut to: int. B-52. Goldie is examining the damage to the radios.

Goldie:

All the radio gear is out, including the CRM-114. I think the auto-destruct mechanism got hit and blew itself up.