Tech companies get creative to hire foreign workers in the U.S.

[flashl]

Source: Statesman

On Tuesday, the federal government begins accepting visa applications for 65,000 skilled foreign workers. But much as it could use some extra help, Progress Software Corp. won't be applying for any of these coveted H-1B visas.

Instead, the Massachusetts company is embracing a different visa program, called L-1, that lets businesses import workers who've already been hired at their overseas offices.

...

Despite the slowing economy, companies say it's hard to find enough highly skilled workers. The H-1B program was designed to help businesses hire capable foreign workers, but demand for the 65,000 visas far exceeded supply in 2007, and the same is expected this year.

...

But critics of U.S. immigration policy say some companies are misusing the L-1 program. "We have found and heard lots of stories recently of companies that are really kind of abusing it," said Bob Meltzer, chief executive of Visanow.com, a Chicago company that processes visa applications online.

The Statesman

Read more: http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/technology/03/31/0331visas.html

---

More of the same. Notice that the Feds accepting applications on Tuesday before the release of job stats.

[MikeNearMcChord]

1. The way to help teach more high tech skills

especially to our youth, would be to tax the SH** out of these comapnies, want to hire that programmer from India? Fine! Pay the price! And make it retroactive to 1981(the year Reagan declared war on working America!)I start with an automatic 65% rate on the CEO's and Board Members of these firms.

[BearSquirrel2]

17. We will have a hard time convincing youth ...

You will have a hard time convincing young people to go into difficult high tech fields when they are depressing wages by importing overseas talent. Even if you believe these companies, it's kinda a vicious circle.

I agree, we do need heavy fees on H1-B and L-Z1. I don't think $10,000/year would not be unreasonable. If there is inadequate talent, then companies should invest in job training. If they move the jobs overseas, tax the shit out of them.

There are oceans of unemployed qualified computer programmers in this country. There is no conceivable reason to import more except to shore up CEO bonuses.

[hootinholler]

22. 10K a year is chump change for an H1-B

They should have to pay 30K initially, and 20K per year as it's extended.

Companies are 'saving' 30K to 50K per year on H1-B hires. More when you consider the depressing effect on all IT salaries.

-Hoot

[treestar]

25. Then why do they go to all the trouble?

Why do employers so perversely do this? Filing for an H-1B is expensive and a lot of trouble and one has to prove to the government one is paying the prevailing wage. Go to the DOL website and read about how to do it, because the media are not going to make it clear. Everyone persists in saying they pay the H-1B less, but they cannot by law, whereas they could pay any U.S. citizen less if they could get away with it with the U.S. citizen.

There does not seem to be any advantage to the employer then, to hire an H-1B when it could easily find Americans, for whom no petition can be filed, and with whom they can negotiate the wage without government involvement.

[BearSquirrel2]

39. I'm paying less, what are you gonna do about it ..

I think you have to remember that an H1-B is a type if indentured servant. They cannot switch jobs without going through the whole process again. So, if the company decides to cut your pay after you arrive, there is not much the H1-B can do. No one does the follow up work and these people don't pay income tax.

Employers put job ads in papers advertising for positions that they have ZERO intent to fill with applicants. These are the cases where they require 5 years experience in 3 year old technologies. Applying is a waste of time. The ads are there to show that they "could not fill the position". I have applied for many of these positions, they never respond.

The lawyers have this down to a fine process. These are all paper transactions and it doesn't matter whether there are Americans there to fill the jobs. The actual qualifications aren't even important as the cost is what they're after. In many cases they end up with profound communication problems and substandard work. But, it's a cheap gamble when you can pay some 1/5 of an American salary. What are they going to do ... quit??? That means deportation.

Nope sorry these companies have H1-Bs by the balls.

[OhioChick]

40. You're Absolutely Right.

Quote: "Employers put job ads in papers advertising for positions that they have ZERO intent to fill with applicants. These are the cases where they require 5 years experience in 3 year old technologies. Applying is a waste of time. The ads are there to show that they "could not fill the position". I have applied for many of these positions, they never respond."

My company advertises with no intent on hiring. They'll get hundreds of applications and toss them in the garbage. They only do it as it's required to keep their H1B's. (To say they tried hiring US citizens)

[Occulus]

49. That should be one of the things that triggers corporate capital punishment

but it seems we have no such thing here in the US.

Yes, I just said that doing what is described above should, by law, mean the company is forcibly shut down and its assets dispersed. We must stop this practice, by any means necessary.

[OhioChick]

58. I Agree With You. n/t

[treestar]

44. The H-1B could report them to the DOL

They are not slaves and can't work for less than prevailing wage, whereas an uninformed citizen worker could. At least the DOL would not be there to look over the employer's shoulder.

There are huge filing fees, too, and the lawyer's fees are probably no pittance. So why go to all that expense, and have the DOL lurking in the shadows giving your employee an unusually high amount of leverage, when you could just hire a U.S. citizen, no lawyers, no filing fees, no fuss, and able to negotiate with that employee with the upper hand?

And why go through all that when the number of H-1Bs is limited and the demand for them much higher than the limit? That entails spending all that money for nothing - and taking the chance of it.

[OhioChick]

56. Do You Think That the DOL Really Cares?

I've seen many H1B's come into many companies that I've worked at. No matter what their experience, they're given a lesser title.......thus, paid less. I've seen it at every company that I've been at.

I've kept in touch with many former co-workers and interestingly enough, an H1B that I worked with told me that he's going back home within the month. He said he'd make more money in India. Said he only wanted to come here to see how businesses are run re:IT and take that info home with him to make him more marketable there.

[treestar]

63. Did they report them?

Did they or you say anything to the DOL? How are they supposed to know this is happening if no one tells them anything? They don't have the manpower to go combing through the records of every company. And further, when they tried to get another H-1B, they could well have to prove they paid their past H-1Bs the amount they were supposed to have.

If they weren't paid the prevailing wage, as posted, your employer was violating the law. We are concerned with having legal immigrants aren't we? H-1Bs are legal and therefore should be treated as the law allows - the law protects them from being paid under the prevailing wage. Go to the DOL web site and learn about it.

The reason the jobs go to India is because they can be paid less there and still live a middle class life style, so your guy was pulling your leg. You can live in India on 1/10 of what you can live on here.

[OhioChick]

69. "Did they report them?"

Hell no. There are NO jobs out there and I can't afford to lose mine. What would the DOL do? Do you trust ANYTHING connected to this administration? I know of many companies violating the law, they do so as they know they can get away with it.

With the dollar in a free fall and layoffs/pay cuts left and right, no "my guy" was not pulling my leg. He got a better offer from home. He could care less at this point of reporting any company.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

46. Thank you! Explaining immigration processes to some

people is like explaining brain surgery to a squirrel.

[OhioChick]

54. Bottom Line....

Big Cost Savings.

[Psephos]

38. That'll encourage them to stay in the U.S. fer sure! n/t

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

2. FYI... the application date

is not arbitrary. The problem is that H-1Bs are only allowed from the beginning of the fiscal year, and that's October 1. Since you can only file the H-1B petition no less than 6 months prior to the beginning date of employment (October 1), all petitions are filed no later than April 1, simply because there are so many petitions sent in by various employers which far exceed the demand, as stated in the article. Therefore, the fact that these petitions are submitted before the job numbers come out has nothing to do with a conspiracy... trust me. I've filed thousands of H-1Bs in my career.

As for the L-1, it is an intracompany transfer visa for specialized knowledge workers (L-1B) and managers/executives (L-1A). It is for those who are employed by a company subsidiary, branch, affiliate or headquarters abroad. For instance, XYZ company in Italy owns ABC Company in the U.S. As long as an employee of XYZ meets the requirements for L-1B or L-1A classification (which are a bit complicated, but I can explain if you'd like), ABC can file a petition for the workers. I have been saying for years that the L-1Bs (L-1As are only for managers and executives and are utilized far less) are a much more dangerous practice than the H-1Bs. The H-1B at least requires that the person be paid the prevailing wage, that s/he be offered the same benefits as U.S. workers, etc.

There are no such guarantees with the L-1Bs. They can be paid in peanuts, or Rupees or whatever else. There's no prevailing wage test, no benefits required. Unlike H-1Bs who can transfer to other employers, L-1Bs cannot do so (because of the intracompany transfer issue). Unlike H-1Bs who are required to have at least a U.S. bachelor's degree or its foreign equivalent, there are no strict education rules for L-1Bs (experience is often used in lieu of a degree).

[pattmarty]

3. Evidently you have made MONEY on the H-1b visas...............

........I have been saying since I was in High School that the MAIN problem in this country is education. If we had a system that the rest of the industrialized world has we wouldn't have to "import" SKILLED labor. Everybody's focused on "Mexicans" who for the most part take jobs most don't want or the low end jobs. I am not against immigration (so I don't want to hear the racist or ethnic bullshit) but, EDUCATE OUR PEOPLE FIRST before "importing" labor. Simple idea, reform our education system, period.

[Lance_Boyle]

5. it's not education, it's wages

Why hire one of the MANY available (and qualified) American IT professionals when you can save big money on salary and bennies by going either H-1B or L-1, AND have the added benefit of an employee who can't quit without losing legal residency?

There's no shortage of well-educated, highly-qualified American IT professionals. And most aren't even demanding dotcomboom salaries. But they do demand, and deserve, to be paid fairly for their labor. Which is not easily accomplished when so much incentive exists for companies to hire outside the "I am a citizen of the United States" checkbox.

[flashl]

8. Good points. There is also a logjam in the U.S. education process

US credit crunch hits education as banks abandon student loans

TimesOnline

One of America’s leading banking associations has given warning that the United States faces a growing educational apartheid as some lenders withdraw from student loans amid new evidence that the credit crisis has spread across all types of borrowing.

In the past fortnight, some banks, including HSBC, have pulled out of the $85 billion (£42 billion) a year US student loans market, fuelling anxiety that the turmoil that hit debt markets on Wall Street last summer is spilling over into the wider economy and making credit more difficult to secure for ordinary American households.

In the US, many undergraduates take out a federal guaranteed loan and top up their financial needs with a private loan from lenders such as Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase and Citi-group. In the academic year 2005-06, $17 billion in private student loans was used to finance higher education.

College frenzy likely to ease as fewer graduate high school

High-school seniors across America are anxiously awaiting the verdicts from the colleges of their choice later this month. But though it may not be of much solace to them, in just a few years the admissions frenzy is likely to ease. It's simply a matter of demographics.

Projections show that by next year or the year after, the annual number of high-school graduates in the United States will peak at about 2.9 million after a 15-year climb. The number is then expected to decline until about 2015. Most universities expect this to translate into fewer applications and less selectivity, with most students likely finding it easier to get into college.

...

That won't help Charlie Cotton, a senior at Madison High School in New Jersey. He has the grades and scores to aim for the nation's elite universities; yet, in the hypercompetitive world of college admissions, his chances of winning a spot at his top picks — such as Middlebury, Dartmouth and Oberlin — are highly uncertain. When his sister, Emma, who is in eighth grade, applies to college, she is expected to face a less frantic landscape with fewer rivals.

The demographic changes include sharp geographic, social and economic variations. Experts anticipate, for example, a decline in affluent high-school graduates and an increase in poor and working-class ones. In response, colleges and universities are already increasing their recruitment of students in high-growth states and expanding their financial-aid offerings to low-income students with academic potential.

No one discusses the inability of institutes of higher education to process the number of high school graduates' applications seeking higher education.

[pattmarty]

13. Many European countries offer FREE K-4yrs college or equivalent.

[skooooo]

42. Yeah, and their colleges suck pretty much....

[pattmarty]

47. Suck huh? Well, how many countries do high school.............

....students know more than one language? Look at poor countries like India & China, how are they pulling themselves up from "third world" status? Look at our "great" education system; for the rich you have the Harvard's and Yale's, but for the poor and middle class what do you have???? And lastly, how many Americans (rich or poor) can find Uganda on a map or for that matter know what fucking continent it's on? Last question for ya; how many Americans can name the states capitol they live in? Now tell me again exactly how the "other" industrialized worlds education systems suck compared to ours.

[skooooo]

50. Well snippy snippy...

We're talking about Europe. Have you been to a European university? No? Then you don't know what I'm talking about. You're just making assumptions about me. For that, you're not worth my time.

[pattmarty]

61. Look, I am going to be nice here, Education is the fucking key.....

.....to a majority of the worlds problems. For whatever reason you do not want to admit that the system in this country is severely fucked up and needs MAJOR change. So don't give me your snippy bullshit.

[pattmarty]

62. AND, did you even READ my reply to your post?

[bean fidhleir]

68. Just out of curiosity...

Why is it important that someone be able to "find Uganda on a map" or "name the capital of the state they live in"? Unless they intend to go to Uganda or send mail/go to their state capital, I mean.

I had to learn those things in school 60 years ago and can still recall them, but I've never once in all that time needed to *know* them. Not once. Nor do I ever expect to. So what good did it do me?

I was intrigued years ago when I read that Einstein couldn't recall many things that we require kids to memorize, and that he thought it was silly that anyone should be expected to. He said something like "why should I fill up my head with trivia that I can look up in less than a minute in the unlikely event that I ever need them?"

Reading that set me to wondering what if any benefit there is in such knowledge. I came to the conclusion that it's required for two reasons: forcing kids to memorize things like that trains them to be obedient, and the result is easy to measure. Performing high-quality evaluation of higher-order learning is a difficult and time-consuming task that not many teachers can handle (see Benj. Bloom or Michael Scriven if you want to explore the issues in depth). So teachers do things like measure rote learning and hope that those scores somehow serve as proxy measurements of high-order learning. It's the basis for NCLB and similar idiocies, and like any pathology it can be fascinating to poke at.

[Juche]

72. Trivia

"I was intrigued years ago when I read that Einstein couldn't recall many things that we require kids to memorize, and that he thought it was silly that anyone should be expected to. He said something like "why should I fill up my head with trivia that I can look up in less than a minute in the unlikely event that I ever need them?""

The goal is so you have a knowledge base to base your opinions on. Susan Jacoby writes about this in her latest book.

For example, on healthcare one of the arguments against universal healthcare is that 'you don't get to pick your own doctor'. But in single payer systems you get a massive choice of almost any doctor whereas in the US you cannot pick a doctor outside your HMO or PPO.

Its not the memorization of useless facts, it is the knowledge of basic facts to base your opinion on. We lack that in the US. The basic knowledge of our environment as it affects us.

Whenever I debate people on the federal budget virtually none of them know how big the federal budget is or how much money goes to what program. You can't have competent beliefs and opinions about the budget, as an example, if you don't know that the budget is 3.1 trillion and don't know how much of that goes to healthcare, social security or the military.

[bean fidhleir]

75. But what has the location of Uganda got to do with the basis of healthcare?

The time being wasted on trivia could be used instead to give pupils a solid grounding in the things that do (or could) make a difference, such as your example of the budget. Or at an even more basic and general level, tools such as the ideas behind various political systems and the heuristics for exposing and deconstructing propaganda.

The location of Uganda and names of state capitals don't have ANYthing to do with real learning.

[pattmarty]

80. Would please explain this to bean fidhleir? I don't have the........

........patience to deal with someone with such a hard fucking head.

[pattmarty]

76. I don't agree with you, but one question; is a 2nd or 3rd language......

.....simple rote and memorization? You completely missed my point. THERE is a difference between today and 40yrs ago in our education system, in a word it's "shittier".

[bean fidhleir]

77. I don't think I missed your point.

If you meant second-language learning, why did you use examples of rote memorization of maps and state capitals? Languages are useful; trivia isn't.

Oh, and what part of what I said don't you agree with, and why? If you really do think trivia is important, please say why and, if you can, suggest a reason why I've never in my life had to use any of the trivia I was force-fed during the 12 years I spent in elementary and high schools.

[pattmarty]

79. READ MY EARLIER POSTS on this topic. If leaders........

.....had to pick "only one thing" to quickly improve various conditions in the world, it would be education. You know properly informed/educated citizens perform better in societies in any number of ways. YOU are the one that talks of memorization. I used a couple of "examples" (Uganda and State capitols) not to show that everyone should know stupid/trivial things, but to show (in this country at least) how people DO NOT either care or know about the rest of the world. Citizens in the US (as you know or should) only care about the size of their home or their new SUV and little of anything else including their children. So, no, you didn't get my fucking point.

[bean fidhleir]

81. Far be it from me to spoil the fun you're obviously having screaming at people

so I'll drop out here.

[pattmarty]

82. And if you don't/didn't have the benefit of a 2nd language, adios.

[bean fidhleir]

83. I have 5 languages, kiddo. Und damit basta.

[pattmarty]

84. In that case you should know what I am getting at, re education.

[Occulus]

52. Yup! That's why so much more research is done here in the US these days

:sarcasm:

[Virginian]

86. India isn't in Europe and it does. n/t

[pattmarty]

11. It's THE EDUCATION TOO. Our system stinks compared to.....

.....ALL industrialized societies. I will agree "it's wages" also, so change the fucking law!!!!!

[sybylla]

12. Yep - institutionalized slavery

Bring in someone desperate for a good paying job, work them as exempt employees 60-100 hours a week, holidays, etc. at a non-competitive wage without having to listen to one complaint because they can always go back where they came from and be replaced by some else.

Plenty of people here to do the work - they just won't work like dogs.

H-1B visas should be stopped. Period.

[OhioChick]

30. "There's no shortage of well-educated, highly-qualified American IT professionals"

Damn straight there isn't.

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Careers/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

6. In my experience,

I have found the H-1Bs to be of all professions: accountants, teachers, nurses, physicians, other medical personnel, plenty of financial/banking professionals, fashion models (yes, they too apply for the same H-1B as software/IT people, though it's called H-1B3 for them and requires different criteria, but it's still from the same pool of H-1Bs), architects, etc., as well as IT people.

And I have not made money on the H-1B visas, as I am not an attorney. I have worked in house at a major multinational IT company that starts with I and ends in M and it's an acronym of International .... Machines, though, among other law firms.

I agree we should educate people who are in the U.S. already (both citizens and legal residents), but in the meantime there is still the need for teachers, nurses, fashion models, accountants, architects, designers and IT personnel. I.... M has a very large careers section with plenty of IT jobs and no takers. As I worked right next to the recruiting department, I listened to their woes daily.

[bean fidhleir]

7. "plenty of IT jobs and no takers"

But I bet they don't hire many older people at all, or many Black or Brown people for the "good" jobs. That's the pattern I saw in industry. They wanted only fresh, young, White meat, with a strong preference for males in the technical jobs. If male, and the job is technical, South and East Asians count as White.

[rmgarrette64]

32. Ahem...

You say, "If male, and the job is technical, South and East Asians count as White."

Isn't this just another way of saying they're not actually looking for someone of a specific skin color, but just phrasing it in a way designed to make people look racist?

R. Garrett

[bean fidhleir]

66. I don't think so, no.

It was clear that they didn't want Black or Brown applicants for high-status jobs, and that says racist to me. Not usually intentionally racist, but default-racist. And sexist.

[pattmarty]

14. FIX THE FUCKING EDUCATION SYSTEM, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The country wouldn't need anywhere near the "imported labor" that we have now AND (by the way) have had for a long, long time.

[BearSquirrel2]

18. Give me a link ...

Yeah right. Give me the link. I already have an I ... M number. I get the same one if I go back. No extra serial loss.

[OhioChick]

29. "Plenty of IT jobs and no takers?"

Wonder what they're paying.... :eyes:

[sergeiAK]

35. Pretty well actually

I spoke with a recruiter of a company that has the initials I*M, and they were paying market rates for Java/C/C++/other developers. The job I interviewed for (and ended up declining) paid ~$55k in RTP, NC.

Others pay more (some pay less), and I don't want to be a developer. That salary falls squarely midrange in this area for an entry-level developer.

[FormerOstrich]

48. Mid-Range for entry level....

therein lies the problem..."entry level". I am not familiar with RTP, but I assume you mean North Carolina. With 20+ years in the industry, not a lot of us are going to relocate to places like NC to earn half of what we were earning pre-Bush years.

Not that we would even get an interview, because we wouldn't.

H1Bs help keep wages down and forces out the senior engineers....it is as simple as that.

The American taxpayers have to pay for all the damn war...it hangs like an albatross around our neck yet the war mongers don't seem to notice that in doing so prices us right out of the damn market.

[sergeiAK]

51. Yes, NC

With 20+ years in the industry, you're looking at jobs that I'd be laughed at for applying to. You're not entry level, whereas I am. I have <1 year in the industry (co-op job while in school).

I should certainly hope you would set your sights a bit higher than an entry level developer position if you have 20 years experience.

Care to explain how newbie H1-Bs, freshly graduated from Bangalore Tech are competing with senior engineers with 20+ years experience? Because all the H1-Bs I'm seeing locally are either entry level or associate engineers, with few of them making senior engineer status.

[bean fidhleir]

67. "Care to explain how newbie H1-Bs are competing with senior engineers?"

Easy: instead of having projects staffed with experienced Senior and Principal engineers, with the gruntwork being done by Engineer 1s and 2s under close supervision, they hire more E1s and E2s and increase the project leader's span of control. So now instead of a Principal project leader mentoring experienced Senior sub-project leaders as part of their training for Principal, the Principal gets replaced by a Senior with immediate technical responsibility for 8 or 12 junior people.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

21. we are applying for 9 H1B's this year

and I can tell you these guys aren't saving us money.

The issue isn't H1B visas, the issue is visa fraud - prosecute visa fraud as opposed to lashing out at a buzzwords.

[SharonAnn]

26. We have skilled workers. Unemployed skilled workers. The issue is wages. H1-Bs get paid less.

[OhioChick]

55. Bingo! n/t

[treestar]

27. You'd have to get student loans again

At a low rate of interest. Or even subsidizing students going into whatever area is deemed to be in shortage.

But if these companies don't grow now, they might not still be around to hire these Americans.

Also, supposedly there are, according to others on the thread, tons of Americans already qualifying for these jobs. Those individuals won't want the government educating their competition any more than importing it.

Bottom line is that if a company grows, there will be more jobs all around, so why are people so worried about 65,000 out of millions of employees?

[Lithos]

4. That is probably the best summary I've ever read

Thank you very much. I think I will bookmark your information. I have been concerned about the loose standards of L-1 visas for sometime now.

L-

[cascadiance]

19. Many companies have hired temps as part of "services" from body shops to get around prevailing wage

... restrictions. It's not been too hard to do, and the government has looked the other way when they were doing this, all the while with the body shops paying a lower "prevailing wage" since they in effect had no equivalent domestic workers working for them directly to measure a "prevailing wage" against. Sounds like these body shops now just have foreign offices to get the L1 visas instead now.

Also, here's another way that companies have been able to work around immigration restrictions to get cheaper foreign labor, and I believe confirms this as their top priority when hiring people. Check out the company called "Sea Code" which has a ship that has a lot of foreign high tech workers that plants itself just outside U.S. waters so that they aren't bound by our worker restrictions, but close enough to be within our time zones and more accessable to domestic companies.

http://www.news.com/5208-1022_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=10566&messageID=78565&start=-1

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GE06Df02.html

http://www.sea-code.com/

[flashl]

20. It seems, inventiveness and creativity is only employed to bypass rules to profit.

[treestar]

24. American companies do the reverse

I remember DuPont company sending employees to Iran and other places years ago. So the U.S. might not want to fail to extend that ability to other countries, because then they might clamp down on our companies abroad.

Anyway it doesn't sound like an L and and H are the same thing, as the OP article suggests.

[happygoluckytoyou]

9. GOP = CHEAP LABOR.... AND NOBODY CARES UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM

When physical labor was exported.... only the laborers cared
When UNIONS were busted to send the union work overseas.... only the skilled laborers cared
When Office Workers and Phone Workers jobs were sent away.... only they cared

NOW THAT WHITE COLLAR JOBS ARE BEING CHEAPENED..... ONLY THEY CARE

----BUT YOU NOTICE THE SHIT STOPPED WHEN THEY TRY TO EXPORT THE LAWYERS AND POLITICIANS !!!!

.....if you want to stop this shit... you need to start at the bottom ----

QUIT BUYING FROM WALMART... OR CIRCUIT CITY ... ETC...

[raccoon]

60. This one's a keeper, for sure,

"NOBODY CARES UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM"

True of just about anything!

[Phred42]

10. Creative Treason - Nothing Personal, It's Just Business

[AnneD]

15. I've had my experiences with HB1 visa Nurses....

according to the GAO, we statistically have enough Nurses in this country yet many Nurses are refusing to work in unsafe conditions (or be overworked in unsafe conditions). Hospitals exploit this 'shortage' to import cheaper more docile labour. Instead of making the jobs safer and more attractive to American Nurses (lower Nurse to patient ratio, better salary), they prefer to get the cheaper foreign Nurses. And instead of helping those interested in becoming a Nurse in this country-they close Nursing schools. Some countries-esp the Philippines-exporting Nurse talent is a real moneymaker. Health care wants a cheap disposable labour force.

[EVDebs]

16. DOL supports importation of slaves and govt won't improve US educ system

Indian Workers Allege Mistreatment At Work
http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=6207144

this story is from March 11th of this month...H2b visas in this case but similar in all 'cheap labor', union-busting scenarios.

BTW, in each of these visa cases from H1b on the visas DOL created were NOT to allow for the displacement of US workers. In every case they HAVE displaced US workers. Don't get me started on the fraud aspect of these visas, either.

If the laws were being followed and DOL were enforcing those laws we wouldn't even be in the mess we're in now.

[darue]

23. there should be a registry for these jobs, after they've been posted and unfilled for three months

only then would they be allowed to hire foreign workers, and there would be a tax penalty encouraging them to hire and train an American. This is BULLSHIT and MUST BE STOPPED

[treestar]

28. How many businesses have that luxury

If you need nurses, you don't want to wait for three months.

[darue]

34. Well, that's the problem, these companies need to not treat labor as a just-in-time commodity

they should have tech staff on hand, and re-assign/retrain as needed. What's more I do not even accept that these foreign IT works know jack shit more than anyone IT pro could learn in a week or two learning the technology. These H-1B guys are just lying saying they know how to do shit that they really have minimal exposure to. and it's not really the H-1B guys so much as the headhunters that wrangle them up and teach them what they need to know before shipping them to America. The fundamental things to know are language independent. A good programer can pick up any new language/system and work in it in a short period of time. There are temp agencies as well.

These god-damned companies are hiring H-1B's for one reason - they get to pay less and they can treat them like virtual slaves. FUCK THAT

[treestar]

43. They can only get 65,000 of them

Most of those who want to hire won't be able to.

But in the modern world, labor is not always immediately available. H-1bs have to be college educated, too. You can't get one for just anything.

This is not the problem it is cut out to be. A minor ripple in the labor pool.

[Juche]

73. This ties into what was said earlier

If you improve wages and working conditions (something unions are needed for, companies aren't going to do this by themselves) then you'll have more nurses. I think something like 500,000 people in the US are qualified as nurses but refuse to work in the field. Which just aggrevates the shortage.

http://www.elderweb.com/home/node/2513

The Federation of Nurses and Health Professionals (FNHP) commissioned Peter D. Hart Research Associates, Inc., to conduct a study among current direct care nurses and former direct care nurses to examine their perspectives on the nursing profession. Seven in ten current nurses say that their facility has a major or moderate problem retaining and recruiting qualified nurses, with more than two in five saying that each is a major problem. 50% of current nurses say that they have considered leaving the patient care field for reasons other than retirement in the last two years. They report that the health care profession faces a serious risk of losing one in five current nurses (21%) from the direct patient care setting for reasons other than retirement.

The top reason why nurses have considered leaving the patient care field for non-retirement reasons is to have a job that is less stressful and less physically demanding. 81% say that morale is fair or poor and only 18% say it is excellent or good. Most nurses say that, if they were younger and just starting out, they would pursue a different career rather than become a registered nurse.

When current nurses are asked to rate the seriousness of selected problems that they face on the job, issues relating to staffing levels continually top the chart. They cite inadequate staffing levels to handle the number of patients during a shift, inadequate staffing levels to handle the level of acute care required by most patients, and not having enough time to spend with patients as the three biggest problems in nursing.

The two most-often cited improvements that nurses would like to see are increased staffing levels and higher salaries. Three in four potential leavers say that they would consider continuing in patient care for longer if conditions at their job improved.

[superconnected]

31. My company does L1 visas right now as they train labor they've outsourced

to workers from our company in another country. We're training them now to take our jobs away. They're getting the best training here, by us.

How the L1 works is they may stay in in the country for only 6 months - 3 at a stretch then they must go home for 3 weeks, then come back for 3 months. Therefore making it a total of 6 months a year in the US.

We're training them to be systems engineers, software devlopers, and testers - our jobs.

It's so much easier and cheaper to do L1's instead of H1's, especially when they only need to be here for training to take jobs out of the country. The H1 assumes you plan on keeping the job in the country.

Gotta wonder, if they're doing the jobs that americans won't do then why are we training them to do what we are already doing?

[OhioChick]

33. Indians to corner majority of H1B visas in US

Indians to corner majority of H1B visas in US

31 Mar, 2008, 2111 hrs IST, IANS

NEW YORK: A lottery is expected to grant the available 65,000 H-1B visas in the US as demand far outstrips supply, but a majority of them will again be cornered by Indian high-tech professionals, say immigration attorneys as they rush to file applications starting April 1 on behalf of American businesses.

The US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) is expected to pick the lottery within a week, but the anxious wait for the applicants may continue for months as the department starts returning unsuccessful applications and sends receipts for the others. Those who get the three-year visa for skilled professionals can start work from Oct 1.

While there were about 124,000 applications last year, the number this year may cross 150,000, Michael Phulwani, one of the first Indian origin immigration lawyers in the US, told media.

Many will also be vying for the 20,000 H-1B visas meant for foreigners with US-earned masters' or higher degrees.

"About 60-70 percent of all applications are expected to be on behalf of Indians," said Naresh Gehi, a New York lawyer, who is filing about 40 applications. The flow is unaffected by the recent downturn in the US economy or improved prospects in India, he believed.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Indians_to_corner_majority_of_H1B_visas_in_US/articleshow/2914766.cms

[darue]

36. Obama's position on h-1b totally unacceptable

from http://pradeepc.net/blog/?p=193 ...

Unemployed IT Worker // Nov 28, 2007 at 12:07 pm

Why don’t we have a count of American unemployed IT people that are trained and qualified (BSCS), but looking for work? Many studies have shown that we, in fact, do NOT have a shortage of skilled workers in the US.
Isn’t that something we should have?

There are still many, many professionals out there that were laid off due to the H-1B surges in 2000, 2001, and 2003, as well as the cumulative effects of outsourcing. They are underemployed, or have had to change fields and work multiple jobs to make ends meet. Do not forget that this visa is called the “outsourcing visa” because it accommodates and streamlines the ability to MOVE WORK OUT of the US.

Do we expect Americans to study hard, pay big tuition fees, preparing for a career - and become qualified (by BSCS degree) - only to find out that they are not first in line for jobs in their own country? (Think - What is wrong with this picture? Is this a Set-Up?)

The skills for IT jobs that you see in internet job postings are presented in very narrow specific terms with numerous listed skills - including even version numbers of products used. The chances of an individual having the exact mix of skills listed is improbable. And, any smart IT person would not be able to work locked into a specific, stagnant skill set. The nature of this work is to problem solve, to constantly learn and incorporate new skills into your skill set. This use of very specific skill sets in job postings is a means to disqualify American citizens on paper, so that less expensive foreign labor can be used.

Obama talks about a “bachelor’s degree or its equivalent” - the “or its equivalent” means what? a big loophole to bring in cheaper foreign workers without any rights.

Do not be fooled. Any well trained BSCS (Bachelor of Science in Computer Science) professional can easily and quickly learn new skills, and needs to, to keep an interest in work and to do a good job.

It sounds like Obama is trying to play both sides to me. I am hesitant to believe anyone that doesn’t talk about cleaning up all the well documented abuse in the H-1B and L-1 visa programs before they even mention ANYTHING about increases.

Haven’t we all heard about Lawrence Leibowitz, the Director of Marketing for Cohen & Grigsby now best known for teaching companies how to NOT HIRE AMERICAN WORKERS?

There are NOT enough new jobs in this field being generated right now to employ all the new graduates we have, forget about all the people that have been displaced by the previous serges in H-1B and L-1 visa use and the ongoing increase in outsourcing.

Increasing H-1B will promote and streamline more, faster outsourcing - that is NOT what Americans need. Women and minorities, as usual, are the hardest hit.

So when evaluating presidential candidates, we must really think about, who do they REALLY work for?

You can investigate this issue at: http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/H1B.html


Obama directly questioned on this, wants to raise the number:
==========
MA: What is your position on H1B visas in general? Do you believe the number of H1B visas should be increased?

BO: Highly skilled immigrants have contributed significantly to our domestic technology industry. But we have a skills shortage, not a worker shortage. There are plenty of Americans who could be filling tech jobs given the proper training. I am committed to investing in communities and people who have not had an opportunity to work and participate in the Internet economy as anything other than consumers. Most H-1B new arrivals, for example, have earned a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent abroad (42.5%). They are not all PhDs. We can and should produce more Americans with bachelor’s degrees that lead to jobs in technology. A report of the National Science Foundation (NSF) reveals that blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans as a whole comprise more that 25% of the population but earn, as a whole, 16% of the bachelor degrees, 11% of the master’s degrees, and 5% of the doctorate degrees in science and engineering. We can do better than that and go a long way toward meeting industry’s need for skilled workers with Americans. Until we have achieved that, I will support a temporary increase in the H-1B visa program as a stopgap measure until we can reform our immigration system comprehensively. I support comprehensive immigration reform that includes improvement in our visa programs, including our legal permanent resident visa programs and temporary programs including the H-1B program, to attract some of the world’s most talented people to America. We should allow immigrants who earn their degrees in the U.S. to stay, work, and become Americans over time. As part of our comprehensive reform, we should examine our ability to replace a stopgap increase in the number of H1B visas with an increase in the number of permanent visas we issue to foreign skilled workers. I will also work to ensure immigrant workers are less dependent on their employers for their right to stay in the country and would hold accountable employers who abuse the system and their workers.

[OhioChick]

37. And HRC's Stance on H1B's (Not Good)

Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs

Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4

Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M

Hillary "Outsourcing Will Continue" Clinton

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4919403

[darue]

41. so true, maybe we can outsource management? I think that's next

these companies will have a token American as president and all management outsourced to India as well.

[Virginian]

87. That was one of the major reasons I supported Edwards.

I believed he would not support a program that costs Americans their jobs.

[treestar]

45. H-1bs have to have a college degree

And they have to prove it. The U.S. citizen doesn't have to prove it to the government. Most employers don't even require that of the U.S. citizen.

It's a minor issue. The number of H-1bs out there is miniscule compared to the entire labor force.

And it's not as if no U.S. citizens ever work abroad, either.

[Occulus]

53. You have a vested interest in the H1-B visa program, don't you? n/t

[OhioChick]

59. One Would Think....

A lawyer would be my guess.

[treestar]

64. Even if I did, so what?

As if happens, I do not, I just find the subject interesting because debating conservatives is so much fun with it.

It is still a fact that the H-1B has to prove they have a college degree or that their foreign degree is equivalent. It is still a fact they have to be paid the prevailing wage by law. It is still a fact that lawyers and fees for H-1bs would make them much more trouble to hire than U.S. citizens, for whom there is no government involvement. These people are legally here. That is a fact.

Your position is simply illogical and untenable - maybe you personally blame some H-1B you know for some failure of yours on the job?

Why shouldn't someone come and open an office here of a foreign branch? That'll lead to U.S. jobs. Why should such an investor stay abroad? Because you don't like foreigners. The people he/she would eventually employ have to miss out, why, because you just don't like foreigners? Because you are mad at someone?

[OhioChick]

71. Debating Conservatives?

Quote: "I just find the subject interesting because debating conservatives is so much fun with it."

Offshoring/Outsourcing is typically a RW talking point with an agenda on the side of big corps, not the middle class.

Take for instance John McCain:

"On a cheerier note for Silicon Valley, McCain is a diehard supporter of expanding H-1B visas to allow technology companies to hire foreign-born graduates with advanced degrees in math, science, computers and engineering. Unfortunately, he told Arrington, the Valley shouldnt anticipate any increase in H-1B visas any time soon."

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Government/John-McCain-A-Republican-Tech-Record/

With that being said, wouldn't you like to see well educated US citizens offered these jobs first, before bringing in foreign help?

[treestar]

78. Usually it is conservatives who spout the anti-noncitizen credos

Tom Tancredo is a republican. McBush's stances on immigration infuriate Republicans - that's why they consider him a moderate. Every conservative I talk to is against any noncitizen entering, legally or illegally, and can never explain why they otherwise thing the free market should control everything and the government stay out. Suddenly they are all for government restrictions on who can be hired.

Naturally I would like to see U.S. citizens get the jobs, I am making the point that they would get the jobs first since an H-1B is so much trouble to get. That point keeps being evaded in the thread. If you were an employer, why would you pay the filing fees, do all the paperwork, wait for the goverment to act, and pay huge lawyer's fees, have the DOL looking over your back at what you paid them (and you have to prove the ability to pay them and show the USCIS your tax returns) when you could hire someone whose hiring didn't require all that? The very idea is the capitalist will hire the one whom he could pay the least. He'd have a better chance of fooling a US citizen into working for below the prevailing wage. And he wouldn't have the expenses of getting a visa. So why are these employers so perversely spending all that money to get someone else?

The market for IT professionals is better than a few bitter IT people's private experience makes out. It goes against the grain of these employer's being so greedy and that is why there is resistance to the fact that if an H-1B were being paid below prevailing wage, then anyone who knew, including the H-1B himself, could get the government to investigate and prosecute. There are also penalties forbidding employers from hiring more H-1Bs in the future, if they abuse the program. There are now limits on "H-1B dependent employers" even. The government does everything it can to combat any abuse. Again, what greedy capitalist is going to go to all that trouble where there is a crowd of pure as snow U.S. citizens around? And with the internet, it's not even just the local people they have access to!

[Juche]

74. it is not a fact

"It is still a fact they have to be paid the prevailing wage by law."

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

According to "The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004," a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid "significantly less than their American counterparts."

How much less? "On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state."



So you can pay them less, treat them like dirt and they aren't allowed to quit without being sent home. Corporations do not need even more power over our lives like this. If they imported the most talented foreign born STEMs and paid them equal (or higher) what they pay US workers I wouldn't have a problem with it.

My problem is, from talking to people who work in IT, is that they bring in average H-1B workers to replace average US IT workers due to the lower wages and increased control the corporation has over them.

[Virginian]

88. The labor report just came out for March. 80,000 jobs were lost.

How many of those jobs were lost by imported workers?
When my company lost a Govt contract to an H1b dependant company, the few H1b employees we had were reassigned within the company while the Americans were laid off.

[OhioChick]

57. H1B's are KNOWN to pad their resumes.

I know this firsthand.

[treestar]

65. They have to fool the government as well as the employer

So it's easier for a US citizen to pad their resume. They have been known to do this. I know that firsthand. Yet I don't assume every single U.S. citizen does that. At least they only have to fool the employer.

They have to prove to the government that they have a college degree. That is a fact.

[eib1]

70. If you refuse to educate and prepare

the people you have for work, then you bring in foreign workers to take their places.
I suppose native Americans will have to sweep the streets while these foreigners wear the suits.
Why take the labor force you're given when you can import the one you want?

[Matariki]

85. "Despite the slowing economy, companies say it's hard to find enough highly skilled workers"

Hey, let's turn the US into a third world country by continuing to not funding education. That's a GREAT idea.