Egypt sentences 5 men for homosexuality

[Behind the Aegis]

Source: Associated Press

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) — An Egyptian court convicted five men Wednesday on charges of homosexual behavior and sentenced them to three years in prison, officials said.

Defense lawyer, Adel Ramadan, said the judge found the men guilty of the "habitual practice of debauchery" — a term used in the Egyptian legal system to denote consensual homosexual acts.

The convictions were confirmed by a judicial official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to journalists.

Homosexuality is not explicitly referred to in Egypt's legal code, but a wide range of laws covering obscenity, prostitution and debauchery are applied to homosexuals in this conservative country.

Read more: http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/international-43/1207772366288050.xml&storylist=topstories

[truthisfreedom]

1. Imagine Gannon/Guckert's overnight White house stays being revealed in Egypt instead.

[bitchkitty]

2. Wow, lucky for them they weren't gay witches! n/t

[Trajan]

3. American Fundamentalists ?

Eat your heart out ..... You will have to visit a viciously repressive state to get your 'jail the fags' desires fulfilled .... Poor things ...

Sarcasm aside: Isn't it the same situation in ALL Muslim states ? ...

[Zynx]

5. I don't know about Turkey, but the rest of them, yes.

It is not politically correct to say so, but I will anyway. Nations with overwhelmingly Islamic populations do not have strong personal freedoms. This is a simple fact. It is almost like looking at Europe in the 1400s.

[Spiffarino]

6. The truth sometimes has a politically incorrect bias...

...when it comes to religion.

And the horrible truth in this case? These guys were lucky. If they had been in another Muslim country, they might have been sentenced to far longer terms...or even killed.

What a far cry from the years that followed the Prophet's death. Arab culture once flourished not only in political power but in mathematics, art, technology, astronomy, literature and poetry. The genius and creativity that runs deep in Arab culture came to full fruition. But later the fundamentalists took over, and the rich diversity and beauty of Arab culture was at once crushed.

May the day come when the world sees the best this great people can be.

[Baby Snooks]

7. The threat of fundamentalism

The same threat exists here. We just don't like to think about it. But it can happen here. It was not that long ago that many states sentenced homosexuals to prison just for being homosexual. Louisiana still uses a similar law to sentence homosexuals and other "deviants" to life in prison. One of the things the Supreme Court didn't address with regard to sodomy laws. And while the Supreme Court struck down sodomy laws, in most of the states that had them they are still on the books. Just in case. Just in case states write new laws that discriminate against everyone and the Supreme Court rules that since "equal under the law" applies, sodomy laws are once again just fine. Of course they will not be applied equally. And we will be right back where we were. With the government peeking in bedroom windows again. Clarence Thomas made reference to the right to privacy. Which Antonin Scalia took issue with.

Our sodomy laws used the same "public morals" standards as Egypt does although in Egypt it is more a matter of the government pandering to the fundamentalists rather than the fundamentalists dictating to the government. The Louisiana law still does. Most of the homosexuals arrested in Egypt have "congregated" and were not arrested as a result of "bedroom" raids. The only country that actually invades bedrooms to my knowledge is Iran and even suspicion of being homosexual in Iran is enough to have someone arrested and beheaded which is the punishment in Iran. The same brutality is what awaits Iraq. Thanks to the Bushes.

There is debate since the Q'uran of course refers to the right of men to have concubines and slaves and eunuchs. And the eunuchs weren't meant to just stand around looking pretty. The debate centers around public behavior versus private behavior. Although in some of the Islamic countries even debating it will get you hauled into court and possibly sent to prison.

And it's just as bad for women. In Iran, a man does not need a witness to make an accusation of immorality against a woman. A woman needs two witnesses to make an accusation of immorality against a man.

[onager]

9. 1258: when the fundamentalists took over...

...according to some historians and other people smarter than me. Which is just about everybody.

1258 saw one of the most unnecessary atrocities in world history, the absolute destruction of Islam's intellectual center, Baghdad. The city and much of the entire nation was flattened by an invading Mongol army, led by the grandson of Genghis Khan.

Baghdad at the time was ruled by a figurehead Caliph. For weeks his military advisors had warned the Caliph of the approaching Mongol army, but he did not so much as lift a finger to defend the city.

That would have been blasphemous, since obviously Allah could defeat the Mongols single-handed. And the Caliph just kept saying that...

According to some accounts, the Caliph refused to allow even the simplest defensive preparations, such as strenghthening the city walls or digging anti-cavalry ditches.

When the Mongols finally appeared outside the city, the Caliph deeply offended them by screeching that Allah would destroy the infidel and probably sub-human invaders. Any minute now! (According to some accounts, the Mongols offered surrender terms that would have spared the city. But the Caliph refused to even consider a surrender.)

Well, the absolutely predictable happened. The infuriated Mongols took the city and forced the Caliph to watch as they murdered his subjects en masse before his eyes.

The Caliph presented a problem, since he seemed to be some kind of royalty and the Mongols believed that royal blood should not be shed "upon the Earth." They solved the problem by rolling the Caliph up in rugs (or a sack) and trampling him to death with their horses.

The Baghdad Library, housing a thousand years of irreplaceable works on science, medicine, history, philosophy, etc., was razed to the ground and its books tossed into the Tigris River like so much garbage. Witnesses said the river ran black with ink from destroyed books.

According to some experts on the subject, Islam at the time was already turning inward and becoming more intolerant of conflicts between Reason and Faith. The fall of Baghdad was "proof" that all Islam needed was more, more, and STILL more of that ol' time religion.

And that is exactly the same argument the Islamic Fundamentalists make today, to explain such baffling pheonomena as the survival of Israel and the failure of all attempts to unify the "Arab world." (Or as another person smarter than me once said: "Religion is the only business where the customer always blames himself for product failure.")

As an American who has spent 5 years living in the Middle East, I hear those arguments all the time. At least in translation.

[bean fidhleir]

15. Religious extremism (which fundy-ism is) is a mental disorder and the victims should be

diagnosed and treated, while being prevented from harming the people around them.

[Spiffarino]

22. I'm going to start hunting for more of your posts

Are you always this good at educatin'?

:applause:

[JCMach1]

10. Like any law, each nation interprets their own version of

how things should go down.

[bean fidhleir]

11. "Modern" nations with "Christian" populations don't either

In the US, homosexual activity was treated as both a criminal offense and a psychiatric disorder a mere 40 years ago. People could be imprisoned and even lobotomized for it.

[Zynx]

16. On that particular issue, things have only gotten better in the last half century.

However, on balance, a great deal more freedom has been enjoyed in the Christian West and that really can't be disputed.

[bean fidhleir]

17. "that really can't be disputed"

Sorry, but any such claims by the Christian west are analogous to A looking down on B because B committed a crime today while A hasn't committed one since yesterday. Pre-missionary Asia, Africa, and the Americas can take pride in their broad-mindedness, but the Christian west cannot.

[Zynx]

18. I am comparing the current state of affairs. 1000 years ago the story was different.

[bean fidhleir]

19. I'm talking about the current state of affairs too

Western missionaries *created* whatever intolerance of homosexuality now exists in Asian, African, and American cultures. The anthropological record is pretty clear about that.

For westerners to be smug about our tolerance is like a mobster strutting and preening at how wealthy and unbloodied he is by comparison to the victims of his thugs.

[Zynx]

21. The Middle East has not been impacted by Western missionaries in the way you suggest.

As a matter of fact, it hardly has been at all. It isn't just homosexuality either. There is a broad and persistent pattern of a deprivation of civil liberties that exists few other places.

[bean fidhleir]

25. My point seems to be getting lost

Namely that the Christian west has no reason to be self-congratulatory given its unbroken record of murderous intolerance. Such tolerance as we're slowly managing to achieve comes from the secular tradition, not the Christian one. So for us to criticize Islam while pointing with pride to ourselves is the height (or depth, I'm not sure which) of hypocrisy.

[xioaping]

20. But not anymore

Should we go back or should Egypt go forward. Are you excusing it or reminiscing?

[bean fidhleir]

24. I'm doing neither

I'm saying that the west has no basis whatever for self-congratulation in the matter of tolerance of homosexuality. If the Christian scripture means anything, then the Christian west has been entirely un-Christ-like throughout its history. So any westerner criticizing Islam by comparison to his own culture is displaying ignorance and meta-ignorance that's as sickening to watch as Bush is when he talks about the "romance of war".

[xioaping]

26. Progress vs no progress is what is relevant

"I'm saying that the west has no basis whatever for self-congratulation in the matter of tolerance of homosexuality."

Excuse me. I hope I am not taking this out context but it certainly does have reason to congratulate itself as far as progress in societal acceptance. Seperate from that, any country that is still in the dark ages socially can rightly and should be criticized.

It does not matter where you came from. It is where you are now. The U.S. is light years ahead of where it was yesterday and where Islmic fundamentalist countries are now. I'm not buying your rationalism or meta-ignorance as you call it.

[mitchtv]

4. Thank god no one had a tattoo

of the Prophet
Thanks for posting this

[happygoluckytoyou]

8. bush claims.... see... they enjoy that prison dog naked stuff.... not torture

hooray for JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN... hooray for JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN... hooray for JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN... hooray for JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN...

[onager]

12. Posting from Egypt...

...with one of my usual tedious book suggestions.

To get an idea of what is going in the Muslim world generally and Egypt specifically, read Dr. Alaa el-Aswany's excellent 2002 novel The Yacoubian Building.

The author managed to put just about everything about into this book: religious fanaticism and hypocrisy, political and personal corruption, the abysmal treatment of women, and just the daily struggle to survive.

The book was described as "ground-breaking" for its treatment of homosexuality in Egypt. One character is a gay editor who is fairly open about his sexuality. At editorial meetings, his staff constantly baits him by suggesting article ideas about "the homosexual problem in Egypt."

In some parts that will sound VERY familiar to modern Americans, politicians are depicted as corrupt buffoons who campaign on trivial "family values" issues. "Our wives and mothers and daughters are watching these evil, Satanic...music videos!!!"

One of my favorite parts: an aspiring politician takes a secret Second Wife who gets inconveniently pregnant. He brings a "religious authority" to visit and talk her into having an abortion. The religious nabob says "many learned sheikhs" condone abortion.

The woman responds: "Those must be American sheikhs."

The book was made into a movie, but as usual, you should read the book first. The treatment of the gay character is a lot different in the movie, for one thing.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

23. Why?

[greiner3]

14. Aren't jails such as those in Egypt;

Places where men have sex with men? Just asking!